McShay VS Kiper

[MindField]

OK, the MindField Scouting Network has gone into semi-retirement....what used to be a favorite hobby of mine since I was nine years old or so has now taken a backseat to two growing boys and my now year-around commitment to their Baseball programs....there is just not enough time to watch the same amount of College football I used to....that with the Hurricanes program being down, and one of the worst College football seasons in history has helped me to lose interest.

Anyway, I now have to lean on guys like Kiper and McShay, and Pro Football Weekley to help me piece together the big picture.

Here are how McShay and Kiper stack them up, 2/3 of the way through the season.

McShay gives a full first round of 32 players with Junior prospects thrown in, while Kiper runs a Top 25.

I add my comments where I can...

Abscent from both is Texas DT Frank Okam.

McShay: *=Juniors

1.) RB Darren McFadden-Arkansas* 6'2"-212
2.) DE Chris Long-Virginia 6'3"-265
Why do I think this guy will wind up in New England next year?
3.) DT Glen Dorsey-LSU 6'2"-309
4.) OT Jake Long-Michigan 6'7"-310
May not be Broncos style, but I love this guy. He's an ass kicker.
5.) DT Sedrick Ellis- USC 6'1"-305
Somebody help me out, 'cause I don't see it with Ellis.
6.) QB Matt Ryan-Boston College 6'4"-225
Can the NY Jest pass on him?
7.) Calais Campbell-Miami* 6'8"-281
Monster DE hails from Denver area.
8.) QB Brian Brohm-Louisville 6'3"-225
Vikes and Falcons are keeping thier fingers crossed he falls to them.
9.) WR/KR DeSean Jackson-CAL* 6'0"-180
As an athlete, Jackson will test off the board; can Weird Al resist?
10.) ILB James Laurinaitis-Ohio St.* 6'3"-245
Son of Road Warriors wrestler makes him hard to take seriously.
11.) DE Derrick Harvey-Florida* 6'5"-250
Did Broncos get better of Gator DE's?
12.) QB Andre Woodson-Kentucky 6'5"-220
I find it hard to believe this guy isn't rated higher; great poise in the pocket.
13.) LB Dan Connor-Penn St. 6'3"-232
If he were just a tad bigger, he would be a great MLB prospect.
14.) CB Malcom Jenkins-Ohio St* 6'1"-202
15.) OT Sam Baker-USC 6'5"-312
Broncos No. 1 pick? Trojan tackles historically a success in NFL.
16.) OLB Keith Rivers-USC 6'3"-230
All athlete, questionable instincts...
17.) WR Malcom Kelly-Oklahoma* 6'4"-220
Big-time talent in the Brandon Marshall mold
18.) FS Kenny Phillips-Miami* 6'1"-205
Struggled during Sr. season, but can play either Safety spot; great fit for Broncos.
19.) OT Ryan Clady-Boise St.* 6'6"-317
Striaght up nasty player and a very good athlete...plus, he's already a Bronco.
20.) CB/PR Reggie Smith-Oklahoma* 6'0"-200
Not sure about Corner ability, but a dynamite kick returner talent.
21.) DE Vernon Gholston-Ohio St.* 6'4"-260
Where did all the Buckeyes come from??
22.) ILB Rey Maualuga-USC* 6'3"-255
If he is smart, he returns to USC for '08
23.) WR Limas Sweed-Texas 6'5"-221
24.) RB Jonathan Stewart-Oregon* 5'11"-230
Alot of people on the JStew bandwagon...
25.) WR Early Doucet III-LSU 6'0"-209
26.) CB Mike Jenkins-South Florida 6'0"-200
27.) CB Aqib Talib-Kansas* 6'2"-205
28.) DE Quentin Groves-Auburn 6'3"-262
29.) WR James Hardy-Indiana 6'6"-218
Plaxico clone?
30.) OLB Ali Highsmith-LSU 6'0"-221
A bit over-rated?
31.) OT Alex Boone-Ohio St. 6'6"-312
32.) WR Adarius Bowman-Oklahoma St. 6'3"-225


McShay states BC's OT Gosder Cherilus and CB DeJuan Tribble have fallen out of his Top 32.


UP next: Kiper

[MindField]

Here's Mel:

1.) DT G Dorsey-LSU
2.) OT J Long-Michigan
3.) QB M Ryan-Boston College
4.) DE C Long-Virginia
5.) DT Sedrick Ellis-USC
6.) QB B Brohm-Louisville
7.) DT Kentwan Balmer-North Carolina 6'5"-298
8.) QB A Woodson-Kentucky
9.) LB D Connor-Penn St
10.) DE Q Groves-Auburn
11.) OT Jeff Otah-Pitt 6'5"-340
12.) CB M Jenkins-So. Florida
13.) OT S Baker-USC
14.) WR L Sweed-Texas
15.) OLB A Highsmith-LSU
16.) QB Dennis Dixon-Oregon 6'3"-199
17.) WR E Doucet-LSU
18.) RB Mike Hart-Michigan 5'8"-200
19.) OLB K Rivers-USC
20.) WR Lavelle Hawkins-CAL 5'11"-185
21.) DE Lawrence Jackson-USC 6'5"-265
22.) WR D.J. Hall-Alabama 6'2"-190
23.) DE Darrell Robertson-Georgia Tech 6'5"-251
24.) OT Gosder Cherilus-Boston College 6'6"-320
25.) CB Charles Godfrey-Iowa 6'0"-208

Fallen Out: CB D Tribble-BC; CB Chevis Jackson-LSU 6'0"-185;
C Cody Wallace-Texas A&M 6'3"-295

[BroncosTX77]

nfldraftdog.com is another decent site to look at. they stay up to date with current college prospects.

As for McShay vs. Kiper, look at it from my point of view <opinion>. Kiper hides behind his pay for insider information and won't make an appearance until the combines. McShay is everywhere on TV giving insight and opinions on college players weekly. Not to mention McShay's list includes all draft eligible players.


As for your comments on McShay's list.

First off pardon my French but, the Dallas Cowboys have a real hard on for Darren McFadden and I would presume that Dallas would trade both of their first round picks to N.E. to move up to get them. Patsies LB are getting old and they could still grab some really good LB's in the middle of round 1.

Chris Long DE Virginia has the pedigree. Non Stop motor gets to the QB. Great tackler. Good size for DE. Best DE in draft.

Glen Dorsey DT LSU beast in the middle of DL for career. Couldve been 1st rounder last year stayed in school. Been injured and hasn't had a great year, but still best DT in the draft.

Jake Long OT Michigan best tackle in draft, won't get past St. Louis Rams....

Sedrick Ellis DT USC has a motor that won't stop. Not to mention he is a mean run stuffer. USC rush defense is 10th in NCAA at 92.2 ypg at 2.8ypr which is 9th in NCAA. Ellis also has 7.5 sacks this year, 35.5 tackles 23 solo, 10.5 for a loss. That pretty much primps Ellis up. He has good size and great motor, has a nose for the qb too, Might fit in well as a DE in 3-4 scheme. Possible pick for Miami or Cincinatti.

Jets will pass on Matt Ryan QB BC. They have Kellen Clemens. Jets really need everything. But to start they can go RB or DE with first pick. Young playmaker RB to go with Clemens would do Jets some good.

Calais Campbell DE Miami I can honestly say I have been paying more attention to Kenny Phillips than to anyone else on that team. :eek:

Brian Brohm QB Louisville has already been fitted for a Dirty Bird Jersey I heard...;)

Desean Jackson WR/KR California is in a pickle. On one hand he could be the next Devon Hester, on the other Ted Ginn Jr. Personally i believe he will go in the first round, and if Dallas doesn't win the McFadden sweepstakes, Jackson will be picked as a Terry Glenn replacement.

James Laurinaitis MLB Ohio St. I'd have to say is tied with Dan Connor as best LB in draft. He is a beast. OSU seems to churn out pretty good LB last few years. Rob Carpenter, AJ Hawk, and Laurinitis wont dissapoint. Could be prime picking for the patsies.

Derrick Harvey DE Florida just another pass rush specialist? Underweight, could play lb in 3-4 maybe. I've seen comparisons to DeMarcus Ware. Maybe Adalius Thomas replacement for Ravens....

More to come soon.......

[BroncosTX77]

Andre Woodson QB Kentucky, i am not sold on him. Reminds me of Vince Young. Talented, prototype QB has all the intangibles, but could be a product of the system he plays in college. Also take high majority of snaps out of the shotgun. I believe the combine will make or break him. Minnesota, Jax, Carolina are possible destinations for him.

Dan Connor MLB Penn St. possible target for Denver Broncos if they fail to get Lance Briggs in FA. Taller than Ray Lewis and DJ. Weight is not hard to put on if he needs it. Put him in a tie with Laurinitis.

Malcolm Jenkins CB Ohio St. is overrated imo. I have seen plenty of OSU games this year and he doesn't impress. Late first rounder. He could possibly be the 3rd maybe 4th CB picked. Mike Jenkins from USF is a beast. Aqib Talib from Kansas smothers receivers too. Jenkins is up there because of his size and because the OSU defense is godly.

Sam Baker OT USC not really gonna say too much other than I am not too good with the Big Uglies. Also there really are so many teams that need OL help he could go anywhere in the first. I just don't see Shanny going OL in first.

Keith Rivers OLB USC Best OLB prospect to come out. If Denver is happy with DJ in the middle he is another possibility. He plays WLB so could be a match made in heaven.

Malcolm Kelly WR Oklahomagreat wr. you are correct with the Brandon Marshall comparison. Big Fast and stickum for hands. Great Prospect. I would actually have him as #1 WR but because of DeSean's potential Malcolm would be #2 WR.

Kenny Phillips S Miami - :jawdrop: Best Safety Prospect to come out. Played on just absolutely horrible Miami teams. When you have the chance to take the best safety prospect and he happens to be from The 'U' don't hesitate and pull the trigger. Has ability to play both safety positions too. His stock may be dropping because he has played on a bad team. hopefully he drops right into Denver's lap.

Ryan Clady OT Boise St. is a stud. Atheletic and quick. May make someone a happy Left Tackle. Competition not there though. Might be a tweener till the combine and that will decide his fate between 1st and 2nd rd.

Reggie Smith CB/S Oklahoma can play CB or Safety. Big props from Stoops in his transition to safety. Big playmaker on the ball. Great upside and potential. 2nd best safety prospect. Wouldn't hurt my feelings none if Denver grabbed him.

Vernon Gholston DE Ohio St. not a first rounder. Too inconsistent. Has an attitude. Needs kick in the rear to play good. Plays great when has foot permanently planted in his rear. Someone will take a chance on him though. Will be pass rush specialist in 4-3 or most likely OLB in 3-4.

Rey Maualuga ILB USC USC keeps pumping out NFL quality defense players. He is big and strong as a MLB. If he comes out gonna be hard for too many to pass up. Doesn't quite have the speed as Laurinitis or Connor but won't get run over ether.

Last 3rd coming soon......

[LarryDean]

I put very little stock into what Mel Kiper has to say.

I would take what I read from you guys way before I buy into what he is saying

[LarryDean]

Humpbobby top 25.
1) QB Matt Ryan-Boston College
2) DT Glen Dorsey-LSU
3) RB Darren McFadden-Arkansas
4) DE Chris Long-Virginia
5) OT Jake Long-Michigan
6) ILB James Laurinaitis-Ohio St
7) QB Brian Brohm-Louisville
8) DT Sedrick Ellis-USC
9) RB Jonathan Stewart-Oregon
10)LB Dan Connor-Penn St.
11)CB Malcolm Jenkins-Ohio St
12)QB Andre Woodson-Kentucky
13)WR Early Doucet -LSU
14)WR Malcom Kelly-Oklahoma
15)FS Kenny Phillips Miami
16)LB Keith Rivers, USC
17)DE Quentin Groves-Auburn
18)WR/KR DeSean Jackson-CAL
19)CB Jack Ikegwuonu, Wisconsin
20)LB Ezra Butler, Nevada
21)CB Mike Jenkins-South Florida
22)CB Aqib Talib Kansas
23)RB Chauncey Washington, USC
24)RB Matt Forte Tulane
25)LB LB Xavier Adibi, Virginia Tech

*NOTES*
Only 1 O-LINE I was looking at skill positions and Defense
Some other players I like that I left off the list.
WR
Andre Caldwell, Florida
Mario Manningham*, Michigan
Earl Bennett*, Vanderbilt
D.J. Hall, Alabama
Lavelle Hawkins California
James Hardy*, Indiana
RB
Jamaal Charles*, Texas
James Davis*, Clemson
Chris Johnson, East Carolina
Defense
DT Frank Okam, Texas
DT Nick Hayden, Wisconsin
DT James McClinton Kansas.
LB Ali Highsmith, LSU
S Josh Barrett, SS, Arizona State
S Marcus Griffin, FS, Texas
S Jamar Adams, SS, Michigan

[BroncosTX77]

Limas Sweed WR Texas has a Wrist injury that put him out for season. For now I would not put him in the first round. If he wasn't hurt he would be #1 WR coming out. But as it stans now need to see how that wrist is maybe he can get into some postseason games. Huge and has good speed great hands.

Jonathan Stewart RB Oregon strong back who has great speed. Still needs work on vision seeing the hole better. Can catch the ball out of the backfield well. But can he pick up the blitz? 3rd best RB in draft imo.

Early Doucet III WR LSU doesn't belong in the first round. very disappointing season. Has missed half the season with injuries. His stats have gone down last 2 seasons. Has good speed and height is ok. Limas Sweed is a better prospect faster and taller. He will most likely go at the top of the 2nd round imo unless he shines at combine which is always a possibility for any player.

Mike Jenkins CB/KR South Florida excellent speed and good size. Great cover guy also can play FS. Another intangible is his kick return abilities. IMO best CB prospect to come out.

Aqib Talib CB Kansas mean nasty physical corner that blankets WR's. Good size and speed great hands. Has nose for the ball great hand-eye coord get his hands on the ball. 2nd best CB in draft.

Quentin Groves DE/OLB Auburn disgusting fast. Another tweener come draft time. Has switched from DE to OLB this season. Another player in the Demarcus Ware/Anthony Spencer mold.

James Hardy WR Indiana absolutely huge WR with adequate speed. Great hands and gets open. (Good route runner?) Productive WR throughout his career and has a nose for the endzone.

Ali Highsmith OLB LSU personally really like this guy. High motor that never quits. Tackling machine has nose for the football on both sides of the line of scrimmage. Plays the pass very well and good pass rusher. Plays WLB too.
Definitely a prospect Denver could be looking at. Only thing to really consider and pay attention to is if his good fortune is due to Glen Dorsey....

Alex Boone OT Ohio St. tall OT. Great size and weight for tackle. Lanky, long arms has ok quickness, but very athletic.

Adarius Bowman WR Oklahoma St. Speedy receiver with good size. good hands and route runner. Knee injury in November will keep him out for the rest of the season. Subsequently also may keep him out of the first round too.

[BroncosTX77]

Limas Sweed started the season playing with a bad wrist played 5 games reinjured the wrist into the 6th game with a Bad UT team at the beginning of the season. If he was healthy right now with how Colt McCoy and UT is playing it would be a different story.

His stats (rec, yds, ypc, td) have improved every year and throw in he has done it with 2 QB's. Healthy wrist he is dominant and has shown it throughout his career.

[BroncosTX77]

Honestly I don't have to sell anything to you. The so called 'Experts' have Limas Sweed being drafted in the first round.

As you should see I am reluctant to put him in the first round until i see if he plays in the postseason games. But to each their own....

[MindField]

nfldraftdog.com is another decent site to look at. they stay up to date with current college prospects.

As for McShay vs. Kiper, look at it from my point of view <opinion>. Kiper hides behind his pay for insider information and won't make an appearance until the combines. McShay is everywhere on TV giving insight and opinions on college players weekly. Not to mention McShay's list includes all draft eligible players.


As for your comments on McShay's list.

First off pardon my French but, the Dallas Cowboys have a real hard on for Darren McFadden and I would presume that Dallas would trade both of their first round picks to N.E. to move up to get them. Patsies LB are getting old and they could still grab some really good LB's in the middle of round 1.

Chris Long DE Virginia has the pedigree. Non Stop motor gets to the QB. Great tackler. Good size for DE. Best DE in draft.

Glen Dorsey DT LSU beast in the middle of DL for career. Couldve been 1st rounder last year stayed in school. Been injured and hasn't had a great year, but still best DT in the draft.

Jake Long OT Michigan best tackle in draft, won't get past St. Louis Rams....

Sedrick Ellis DT USC has a motor that won't stop. Not to mention he is a mean run stuffer. USC rush defense is 10th in NCAA at 92.2 ypg at 2.8ypr which is 9th in NCAA. Ellis also has 7.5 sacks this year, 35.5 tackles 23 solo, 10.5 for a loss. That pretty much primps Ellis up. He has good size and great motor, has a nose for the qb too, Might fit in well as a DE in 3-4 scheme. Possible pick for Miami or Cincinatti.

Jets will pass on Matt Ryan QB BC. They have Kellen Clemens. Jets really need everything. But to start they can go RB or DE with first pick. Young playmaker RB to go with Clemens would do Jets some good.

Calais Campbell DE Miami I can honestly say I have been paying more attention to Kenny Phillips than to anyone else on that team. :eek:

Brian Brohm QB Louisville has already been fitted for a Dirty Bird Jersey I heard...;)

Desean Jackson WR/KR California is in a pickle. On one hand he could be the next Devon Hester, on the other Ted Ginn Jr. Personally i believe he will go in the first round, and if Dallas doesn't win the McFadden sweepstakes, Jackson will be picked as a Terry Glenn replacement.

James Laurinaitis MLB Ohio St. I'd have to say is tied with Dan Connor as best LB in draft. He is a beast. OSU seems to churn out pretty good LB last few years. Rob Carpenter, AJ Hawk, and Laurinitis wont dissapoint. Could be prime picking for the patsies.

Derrick Harvey DE Florida just another pass rush specialist? Underweight, could play lb in 3-4 maybe. I've seen comparisons to DeMarcus Ware. Maybe Adalius Thomas replacement for Ravens....

More to come soon.......

Campbell is a guy who is really going to climb up the charts, IMO.

Some scouts have compared him to Julius Peppers, and if that's even remotely close, he will skyrocket in offseason workouts...

That's the problem for the Broncos....they could go in four or five different directions in the '08 Draft.

[Mat'hir Uth Gan]

Kiper and McShay are okay, but at this point in the year, they are ALWAYS drastically wrong.

And really, to be fair, almost everyone who's talking about the draft is just focusing on speculation and personal bias. Once the Bowl Games, the Senior Bowl Week, and the Combine roll around, after that time, the puzzle pieces fall into place.

Kiper is very good a few weeks before the draft. He's definitely more accurate then Scouts Inc.

Scout.com destroys them both however, and that's the only draft expert site I put stock into year round. Probably because its the biggest and the most comprehensive.


Best advice, is to take information garnered from all the draft sites, mix it with personal bias and observations, get a feel from the history of past drafts and players with similar measurables, look at NFL team needs, try and forecast Free Agency, and there you go.

[MindField]

Kiper and McShay are okay, but at this point in the year, they are ALWAYS drastically wrong.

And really, to be fair, almost everyone who's talking about the draft is just focusing on speculation and personal bias. Once the Bowl Games, the Senior Bowl Week, and the Combine roll around, after that time, the puzzle pieces fall into place.

Kiper is very good a few weeks before the draft. He's definitely more accurate then Scouts Inc.

Scout.com destroys them both however, and that's the only draft expert site I put stock into year round. Probably because its the biggest and the most comprehensive.


Best advice, is to take information garnered from all the draft sites, mix it with personal bias and observations, get a feel from the history of past drafts and players with similar measurables, look at NFL team needs, try and forecast Free Agency, and there you go.

I like Pro Football Weekly's guy too....he's not the late Joel Bushbaum, who, IMO, was the best of the 'media' sources, but he's pretty good.

[stnzed]

I like Pro Football Weekly's guy too....he's not the late Joel Bushbaum, who, IMO, was the best of the 'media' sources, but he's pretty good.

Nolan Nawrocki.

The PFW preview and Frank Coyle are my favorite......

[hardcorebronco]

I'd give my left arm and do a hundred back flips if we somehow landed Glen Dorsey (DT - LSU) in the first round. :D:D:salute: