does tyson jackson stand up in denvers 3-4?

[jc13]

that might be a stupid question but im not real familar with the 3-4

[Roddoliver]

No, he would be a DE. Undersized for a 3-4 DE and without known experience as an interior lineman. He would probably spend most of the time laid on the ground pancaked by the OL.

[McJayGate]

At 6'4'' and almost 300 pounds he isn't undersized at all. Many scouts have compared him favorably to Richard Seymour of the Pats and he is rumored to possibly be going in the top 5 now. I would be ecstatic if we drated him as our D-end, or 5-technique, in our 3-4. That is the hardest position to fill effectively. I definately would like to have Seymour on our team.

[BRONCOS_OWN_U16]

No, he would be a DE. Undersized for a 3-4 DE and without known experience as an interior lineman. He would probably spend most of the time laid on the ground pancaked by the OL.
no he wouldnt. why do you have to lie to people

if jackson wouldnt work as a 3-4 end then why
is he considered the best 3-4 defensive end in the entire draft.


football is obviously a sport you know nothing about

[broncos SB2010]

no he wouldnt. why do you have to lie to people

if jackson wouldnt work as a 3-4 end then why
is he considered the best 3-4 defensive end in the entire draft.


football is obviously a sport you know nothing about

I agree that he would be on his back alot too. He is way to weak for that position. His height, weight, and speed have people fooled. Did he dominate the end in college? Not really. He played ok against the run in a system with 4 down linemen. In the 34 he will be trying to plug the middle without any help from a 4th lineman. He is projected so high because he is a 295 pound DE in a system where most DEs are 260 or so. He will be moving into a system where he is just average size at DE and his weakness will be exposed. Very similar to Jarvis Moss who couldn't control the end as a DE because of his lack of strength, Jackson won't be able to hold the point of attack in a 34 because of his lack of strength.

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they don't know football. It just means they have a different opinion. The "experts" are not always right you know. Wasn't Ryan Leaf considered the next greatest thing by the experts?

[McJayGate]

How can you go from saying that everyone wants him bc he is 295 where most DE are 260 and then say he is undersized? Since when was over 6'4'' and 295 undersized? Combine that with his speed and burst off of the line and you could have a Richard Seymour clone. He is the best fit in the 5-technique end in the 3-4 in the entire draft by every expert and web site that is on the whole internet. Its not as if one or two ppl are saying that he may be a good fit for the 3-4. Literally everyone agrees and that is why he may go in the top 10 picks. You must be one of the posters on here hoping that we draft Sanchez and/or Moreno to boost our offense. I dunno about you, but I watched enough games last yr when we scored and then gave a TD right back unable to hold the lead. Not to mention, that was with one of the best young QB's in the league. We addressed our secondary through the free agency and still ahve one of the best corners in the league. That won't matter if we can't get pressure from our front seven. Hopefully all of this is just a smoke screen with the intent on trading up and grabbing Raji or Jackson. DEFENSE wins championships.

[Den615]

I agree that he would be on his back alot too. He is way to weak for that position. His height, weight, and speed have people fooled. Did he dominate the end in college? Not really. He played ok against the run in a system with 4 down linemen. In the 34 he will be trying to plug the middle without any help from a 4th lineman. He is projected so high because he is a 295 pound DE in a system where most DEs are 260 or so. He will be moving into a system where he is just average size at DE and his weakness will be exposed. Very similar to Jarvis Moss who couldn't control the end as a DE because of his lack of strength, Jackson won't be able to hold the point of attack in a 34 because of his lack of strength.

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they don't know football. It just means they have a different opinion. The "experts" are not always right you know. Wasn't Ryan Leaf considered the next greatest thing by the experts?

Im so tired of hearing about his bench press. It doesnt mean much. Clady only did like 13 at the combine. I think he turned out alright.

[Thrasher]

Blockers get their power while pumping their legs. If at all, the combine should include a leg press :D

[Roddoliver]

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they don't know football. It just means they have a different opinion. The "experts" are not always right you know. Wasn't Ryan Leaf considered the next greatest thing by the experts?

Yea, go figure. We are not the holy experts who gathered in a round table and selected Cushing at 12 and Freeman at 18 for the Broncos. Wow, they are experts! Experts draft Ryan Leaf, Courtney Brown, Vince Young, Jarvis Moss... They know what they are doing! Usually, when you think about a 3-4 DE, you imagine a DT, someone with strenght and experience inside the line, not a guy that played 4-3 DE trying to close the edge and get to the QB.

[Cugel]

Yea, go figure. We are not the holy experts who gathered in a round table and selected Cushing at 12 and Freeman at 18 for the Broncos. Wow, they are experts! Experts draft Ryan Leaf, Courtney Brown, Vince Young, Jarvis Moss... They know what they are doing! Usually, when you think about a 3-4 DE, you imagine a DT, someone with strenght and experience inside the line, not a guy that played 4-3 DE trying to close the edge and get to the QB.

Some players with good prospects don't work out. So what?

If drafting were an exact science there would never be mistakes. But, there are. Teams passed repeatedly on Terrell Davis and Tom Brady.

The Raiders drafted Robert Gallery and Darrell Russell #2 overall!

Go figure. :coffee:

Jarvis Moss was a reach at #17, but he would have been taken by some other team in the top 25 picks if the Broncos didn't want him. In some other system, he might even be successful. We'll find out in a year or two if he can stick around the league.

[broncos SB2010]

Im so tired of hearing about his bench press. It doesnt mean much. Clady only did like 13 at the combine. I think he turned out alright.

I would agree that upper body strength isn't everything. However, the problem is that his lower body strength is sub par as well. His vertical and broad jumps were also low. What about him do they say makes him able to be a great 34 DE? Playing 34 DE is much more like playing DT in a 43 than DE and he hasn't done that very much. The only thing I hear about him is his size and speed which is the right size for the position. Speed isn't nearly as important as strength when you are trying to clog the middle. Tell me, if you had a choice all other things being equal, would you rather have someone who benched 19 times or someone who benched 28? a vertical of 37 or 28.5?


Gilbert has experience at DE and DT, he started 14 games at right defensive end, 10 at left defensive end, 12 at left defensive tackle, and two at right defensive tackle

stats for the last 3 years

Gilbert.............................Jackson

123/75........tackles/solo......109/45
37/183.........TF/yards.........25.5/108
18.5/122......sacks/yards......16/91


So jarron Gilbert has better stats, better combine measurables, and has experience at all 4 Dline positions yet Tyson Jackson is considered the better player even though he played with Glenn Dorsey, one of the more dominant recent college DTs? I would take Gilbert over Jackson any day.

[myoung]

I would agree that upper body strength isn't everything. However, the problem is that his lower body strength is sub par as well. His vertical and broad jumps were also low. What about him do they say makes him able to be a great 34 DE? Playing 34 DE is much more like playing DT in a 43 than DE and he hasn't done that very much. The only thing I hear about him is his size and speed which is the right size for the position. Speed isn't nearly as important as strength when you are trying to clog the middle. Tell me, if you had a choice all other things being equal, would you rather have someone who benched 19 times or someone who benched 28? a vertical of 37 or 28.5?


Gilbert has experience at DE and DT, he started 14 games at right defensive end, 10 at left defensive end, 12 at left defensive tackle, and two at right defensive tackle

stats for the last 3 years

Gilbert.............................Jackson

123/75........tackles/solo......109/45
37/183.........TF/yards.........25.5/108
18.5/122......sacks/yards......16/91


So jarron Gilbert has better stats, better combine measurables, and has experience at all 4 Dline positions yet Tyson Jackson is considered the better player even though he played with Glenn Dorsey, one of the more dominant recent college DTs? I would take Gilbert over Jackson any day.

I agree with this 100% and have for a long time. People are scared of Gilbert being a workout warrior but they have not watched the tape or even followed what he did in his career.

He not only can be the best 3-4 DE in this draft but he adds pass rushing skills that you won't get in Jackson. He would give us flexibility similar to a little bigger version of Justin Tuck.... In fact his flexibility on the DL will be something we haven't had since Pryce.

[VABronco37]

Jackson could play DT(part-time) or DE(full-time)...
He played a small bit of DT in college and played well, but mostly played DE(of course).
But he does have the size to be a quick DT and bring a strong pass rush to the QB in that postion.
I see him though as a VERY strong and fast DE and in our 3-4 he would be dominant...

[broncos SB2010]

Jackson could play DT(part-time) or DE(full-time)...
He played a small bit of DT in college and played well, but mostly played DE(of course).
But he does have the size to be a quick DT and bring a strong pass rush to the QB in that postion.
I see him though as a VERY strong and fast DE and in our 3-4 he would be dominant...

How is he so strong? 19 bench reps, and poor vertical/broad jumps? Just because he is 6-4, 295 doesn't make him strong. Stronger than most of us yes, strong for his size and position, no.

[The Hamburgler]

I would agree that upper body strength isn't everything. However, the problem is that his lower body strength is sub par as well. His vertical and broad jumps were also low. What about him do they say makes him able to be a great 34 DE? Playing 34 DE is much more like playing DT in a 43 than DE and he hasn't done that very much. The only thing I hear about him is his size and speed which is the right size for the position. Speed isn't nearly as important as strength when you are trying to clog the middle. Tell me, if you had a choice all other things being equal, would you rather have someone who benched 19 times or someone who benched 28? a vertical of 37 or 28.5?


Gilbert has experience at DE and DT, he started 14 games at right defensive end, 10 at left defensive end, 12 at left defensive tackle, and two at right defensive tackle

stats for the last 3 years

Gilbert.............................Jackson

123/75........tackles/solo......109/45
37/183.........TF/yards.........25.5/108
18.5/122......sacks/yards......16/91


So jarron Gilbert has better stats, better combine measurables, and has experience at all 4 Dline positions yet Tyson Jackson is considered the better player even though he played with Glenn Dorsey, one of the more dominant recent college DTs? I would take Gilbert over Jackson any day.

Gilbert also played against much weaker competition. The Talent in the SEC is much greater than the talent in the WAC.

[broncos SB2010]

Gilbert also played against much weaker competition. The Talent in the SEC is much greater than the talent in the WAC.

That's what they said about Jerry Rice too coming out of Mississippi Valley State. How did that work out?

Who played OT in the WAC? Oh yea, that would be Ryan Clady. That's pretty good competition, or should we have not drafted him too since it is such a weaker conference?

I'm not arguing the strength of conference since the SEC is the strogest conference but I am arguing the validity of the arguement.

[The Hamburgler]

That's what they said about Jerry Rice too coming out of Mississippi Valley State. How did that work out?

Who played OT in the WAC? Oh yea, that would be Ryan Clady. That's pretty good competition, or should we have not drafted him too since it is such a weaker conference?

I'm not arguing the strength of conference since the SEC is the strogest conference but I am arguing the validity of the arguement.

I did not say that the WAC does not have good players, I just said that the SEC has more talent. Each and every week, Tyson Jackson went up agaisnt future NFL players. Jarron Gilbert did not line up agaisnt future NFL'ers each and every week. And Jarron Gilbert didn't really dominate until this year, is he a one year wonder? Tyson Jackson has been solid consistently for years now. That is another reason why he is higher, even though his stats aren't as "great". And just remember, stats aren't everything...

[broncos SB2010]

I did not say that the WAC does not have good players, I just said that the SEC has more talent. Each and every week, Tyson Jackson went up agaisnt future NFL players. Jarron Gilbert did not line up agaisnt future NFL'ers each and every week. And Jarron Gilbert didn't really dominate until this year, is he a one year wonder? Tyson Jackson has been solid consistently for years now. That is another reason why he is higher, even though his stats aren't as "great". And just remember, stats aren't everything...

I disagree that Gilbert just had one good year. He has been very consistent as well, maybe even more so than Jackson. His jump the senior season may be due to the fact that he switched from DE to DT for the senior year.

the last 3 years his tackles were 32, 39, 52.
TFL 7.5, 7.5, 22
sacks 5, 4, 9.5

Jackson
tackles 37, 36, 36
TFL 10, 5, 10.5
sacks 8, 3.5, 4.5

according to these stats Gilbert has gotten better each year where Jackson has not and maybe even has declined. I just don't think people knew who Jarron Gilbert was until this year so they say he just broke out whereas Jackson played on a highly publicized team.

I know stats aren't everything but still to this day no one can explain why Jackson is considered such a high pick. They say he is an elite 5 technique but don't explain what skills are abilities he has that make him one. I know he is fast for a guy his size and they say he is strong against the run but he is slower, smaller, and weaker than Gilbert. usually they back up bad measurables with good stats but he doesn't even have that. So it just makes me wonder why so many people think he is so special. Just because he is 295 pound DE doesn't mean he will be good at 34 DE.

[beastlyskronk]

How is he so strong? 19 bench reps, and poor vertical/broad jumps? Just because he is 6-4, 295 doesn't make him strong. Stronger than most of us yes, strong for his size and position, no.

Jackson has pretty long arms and when you're arms are the long, you have higher to push therefore you get tired faster and do less. And most scouting reports say that he is powerful and has excellent strength.

[beastlyskronk]

His height, weight, and speed have people fooled. Did he dominate the end in college? Not really. He averaged about 1.5 yards when ran at him. That's pretty dominant.

He played ok against the run in a system with 4 down linemen. In the 34 he will be trying to plug the middle without any help from a 4th lineman. Uh no he's not trying to plug the middle. That would be the NT, not the DE.

He is projected so high because he is a 295 pound DE in a system where most DEs are 260 or so.

Pretty sure most DEs in the 3-4 are about 280-300 lbs.

[PaperBagBronco]

Im so tired of hearing about his bench press. It doesnt mean much. Clady only did like 13 at the combine. I think he turned out alright.


PWNED!!

Any fool thats wants to throw bench press numbers out there you know what read the above to yourselfs 5 times or untill it sinks into that crapper you call a brain.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Im so tired of hearing about his bench press. It doesnt mean much. Clady only did like 13 at the combine. I think he turned out alright.

Clady did approximately 25 reps with an injured pectoral muscle and had to stop.

Yes, the bench press does matter, especially with your linemen on both sides of the ball. It's simple reasoning; if one O-lineman can do 35 reps through the course of the game, and the opposing D-lineman can only do 22, who do you think is going to wear down faster through the course of the game?

The only reasonable excuse for a man that large not being stronger is injury.

Eddie Royal, a small receiver, did 22 at the combine. It's one of the reasons he is so effective in press coverage.

[broncos SB2010]

He averaged about 1.5 yards when ran at him. That's pretty dominant.

Uh no he's not trying to plug the middle. That would be the NT, not the DE.



Pretty sure most DEs in the 3-4 are about 280-300 lbs.

The system he is coming from is 43, not a 34 so DEs in the system he is coming from is 260 or so, not 280-300. My point about that was he is an above average size player, 30 more pounds than the average 43 DE which would give him an advantage in stopping the run in that system. he won't have that same advantage as 34 DE because he will be just an average size player.

Whose job is it to plug the middle more, a 34 DE or a 43 DE? The role of all 3 down linemen in the 34 is to clog the lanes, take up blockers and let the LBs make the plays. That is not the responsibility he had in college.

His 1.5 yards average is very solid, he did have some help in that area though since LSU had a very dominate Dline in general. Didn't Glenn Dorsey play there for 3 years with him?

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

PWNED!!

Any fool thats wants to throw bench press numbers out there you know what read the above to yourselfs 5 times or untill it sinks into that crapper you call a brain.

Insults are completely unwarranted.

Tell me something. If you are so much smarter than talent scouts, why do they even do the competition at the combine? Why do scouts even care?

I think every Broncos fan can be grateful that you are not in charge of strength and conditioning for the team.

[broncos SB2010]

Clady did approximately 25 reps with an injured pectoral muscle and had to stop.

Yes, the bench press does matter, especially with your linemen on both sides of the ball. It's simple reasoning; if one O-lineman can do 35 reps through the course of the game, and the opposing D-lineman can only do 22, who do you think is going to wear down faster through the course of the game?

The only reasonable excuse for a man that large not being stronger is injury.

Eddie Royal, a small receiver, did 22 at the combine. It's one of the reasons he is so effective in press coverage.

Thank you. Strength for a 34 DE is pretty much a necessity.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Thank you. Strength for a 34 DE is pretty much a necessity.

It's quite comical that someone would insult the intelligence of someone who thinks it's important to the position.

Larry Allen's strength was of legendary status. I think he could bench press close to 600 pounds at one time. I wonder if his ability to shove NT's, or DT's five yards pass the line of scrimmage had anything to do with that legendary strength? (But what do I know)

[broncos SB2010]

Jackson has pretty long arms and when you're arms are the long, you have higher to push therefore you get tired faster and do less. And most scouting reports say that he is powerful and has excellent strength.

Tyson jackson 32 7/8 arms = 20 reps
Jarron Gilbert 35 5/8 arms= 28 reps

Does that mean Gilbert is even that much stronger than jackson because he also has longer arms?

[psychobear]

that might be a stupid question but im not real familar with the 3-4

The 3-4 is a good scheme for all around players. You find a few things across most good 3-4 D's.

#1. A HUGE NT. Because you have less people on the line this component is very important. He needs to be a big run stuffer who can keep the O-line from getting on the linebackers so they can fly around and make plays.

#2. Good Run stuffing DE's. This is just about as important as the first one. You want a big D-line and not necessarily people that are sack machines.

#3. Good tackling and bitzing LBs. As most of the D-line won't see the QB all too often blitzing is important. On occassion they will line up as that 4th lineman when you want to get a good pass rush. Most plays in a 3-4 have 1 LB blitzing which gives you that 4th D lineman. Speed isn't too important. You have 4 guys there to stop the run so it's less ground to cover. Even as a player blitzes they often need to think run first because of that.

The secondary isn't all too important as far as a particular skill set. Good secondary play is good secondary play reguardless of the defense.

So do the Bronco's have big D linemen? Are their LB's good tacklers and good at blitzing? If so it could be a successful system here. If not then you have some work to do in the draft and free agency.

[beastlyskronk]

The system he is coming from is 43, not a 34 so DEs in the system he is coming from is 260 or so, not 280-300. My point about that was he is an above average size player, 30 more pounds than the average 43 DE which would give him an advantage in stopping the run in that system. he won't have that same advantage as 34 DE because he will be just an average size player.

Whose job is it to plug the middle more, a 34 DE or a 43 DE? The role of all 3 down linemen in the 34 is to clog the lanes, take up blockers and let the LBs make the plays. That is not the responsibility he had in college.

His 1.5 yards average is very solid, he did have some help in that area though since LSU had a very dominate Dline in general. Didn't Glenn Dorsey play there for 3 years with him?

I don't see how him being oversized in the 4-3 and the right size for the 3-4 would give him any disadvantage. And you can't really say that there is one less body on the line because the WLB in the 3-4 blitzes just about every down.

It is the job of the NT to plug up the middle in the 3-4 not the DEs. In the 4-3 it is the job for the DTs to plug up the middle not the DEs. He didn't have the job of clogging lines in college? That is what every d-lineman does in every system. That's why d-linemen don't get a lot o tackles.

His 1.5 yard average was from last year I believe and Dorsey didn't play with them last year. And Dorsey didn't play much the season before either because of injury problems. The fact is Tyson Jackson has been constantly facing double teams for about 2 seasons now and that is why he is ranked so much higher than all the other D-linemen he's played with the past 2 seasons.

[broncos SB2010]

I don't see how him being oversized in the 4-3 and the right size for the 3-4 would give him any disadvantage. And you can't really say that there is one less body on the line because the WLB in the 3-4 blitzes just about every down.

It is the job of the NT to plug up the middle in the 3-4 not the DEs. In the 4-3 it is the job for the DTs to plug up the middle not the DEs. He didn't have the job of clogging lines in college? That is what every d-lineman does in every system. That's why d-linemen don't get a lot o tackles.

His 1.5 yard average was from last year I believe and Dorsey didn't play with them last year. And Dorsey didn't play much the season before either because of injury problems. The fact is Tyson Jackson has been constantly facing double teams for about 2 seasons now and that is why he is ranked so much higher than all the other D-linemen he's played with the past 2 seasons.

I didn't say he would have a disadvantage in a 34 just that he wouldn't have the advantage of being much bigger than normal at his position anymore. With him at DE it was like having 3 DTs on the line instead of just 2 in the middle.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. :) Here's to the Broncos and a great draft this weekend no matter who they select. :beer:

[beastlyskronk]

I'm still not seeing how he loses his advantage. It's not like the OTs or OGs gain 20 pounds when the play the 3-4

[jc13]

i created a monster (the thread)

[floridabroncos]

No, he would be a DE. Undersized for a 3-4 DE and without known experience as an interior lineman. He would probably spend most of the time laid on the ground pancaked by the OL.

Research, research, research. If he's undersized for a 3-4 DE, then I'm undersized for a peewee Football Offensive Tackle.:incomplete:

[broncos SB2010]

I'm still not seeing how he loses his advantage. It's not like the OTs or OGs gain 20 pounds when the play the 3-4

As a 43 DE he is going up against a TE many times when he lines up wide. If he is doubled teamed it might be a TE and RB or TE and OT maybe even OT/RB. In a 34 he is always up against an OT and if double teamed it could be from an OG and the OT or TE and OT again. You are just more often than not going against bigger, stronger players in the 34 than you would in a 43. Playing against tackles and guards more often would take away some of his effectiveness that he had playing against smaller TEs and RBs. With his size he could dominate TEs whereas 260 pound 43 DEs are more on the same level as the TEs, he won't be able to do that with guards.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I did not say that the WAC does not have good players, I just said that the SEC has more talent. Each and every week, Tyson Jackson went up agaisnt future NFL players. Jarron Gilbert did not line up agaisnt future NFL'ers each and every week. And Jarron Gilbert didn't really dominate until this year, is he a one year wonder? Tyson Jackson has been solid consistently for years now. That is another reason why he is higher, even though his stats aren't as "great". And just remember, stats aren't everything...

Gilbert did dominate. He had 22 tackles for loss and 9 sacks. Those numbers were posted while playing DT.

I agree that the competition in the SEC is much tougher, but wouldn't you agree that the fact that Gilbert faced frequent double and triple teams suggests that maybe he faced tougher competition than Tyson Jackson who was not double teamed frequently?