Would You Rather...

[Alastor]

Well, if you had to choose, which would you rather see in our society? Innocent people wrongly convicted sometimes, or criminals allowed to walk free at times?

Why?

Does it matter which crimes we are talking about? Say perhaps, in cases of robbery as opposed to murder.

[JoRo]

I think right now the biggest problem I have with our court cases is it isnt really what you did, it seems to be how much money or who you are in society. O.J Simpson got off. Ray Lewis and Kobe Bryant did after very questionable cases.... (they looked pretty guilty to me, especially Bryant) I just find it unfair, even after high school the athletes get special treatment.

Like they say: Instead of servin 20 to life, you get 20 hours of community service

[Javalon]

Well, if you had to choose, which would you rather see in our society? Innocent people wrongly convicted sometimes, or criminals allowed to walk free at times?

Why?

Does it matter which crimes we are talking about? Say perhaps, in cases of robbery as opposed to murder.
Good question.

I imagine myself in the place of the innocent man who gets put behind bars and I'm quickly convinced that I'd rather have a few criminals go free.

However, the question becomes much more difficult if you start considering the occasional rapist, child molester, or serial killer that goes free. They might very likely go right back out and commit more heinous crimes. Is my freedom worth the potential harm that would be caused by letting those few criminals also go free? :confused:

In the end, we need to do what we already do: Try like hell to put the bad guys away and not mistakenly imprison the innocent. Until we have some kind of truth machine to guarantee 100% correct verdicts, this system is about as just as it will get.

[Mat'hir Uth Gan]

Criminals walk free.

The jails are obscenely overcrowded, the sheer amount of tax dollars going to waste insuring proper food and entertainment, combined with years and years of endless litigation make the current justice system a complete joke, and an insanely expensive one at that.

Criminals have it better then most of the poor in our society. Many individuals hope to be incarcerated so their standard of living improves. It's asisnine.

Let criminals walk, or get rid of the foolish "minimum reasonable standards" for what qualifies as a fair prision. They don't need TVs, they don't need "Boar's Head" quality deli meat. Prisons are a country club for half of these people, complete with sport activities and a free gym membership. As well as a free education. It's just ridiculous.

[Javalon]

Criminals walk free.

The jails are obscenely overcrowded, the sheer amount of tax dollars going to waste insuring proper food and entertainment, combined with years and years of endless litigation make the current justice system a complete joke, and an insanely expensive one at that.

Criminals have it better then most of the poor in our society. Many individuals hope to be incarcerated so their standard of living improves. It's asisnine.

Let criminals walk, or get rid of the foolish "minimum reasonable standards" for what qualifies as a fair prision. They don't need TVs, they don't need "Boar's Head" quality deli meat. Prisons are a country club for half of these people, complete with sport activities and a free gym membership. As well as a free education. It's just ridiculous.
Good points, Mat'hir. Jails should be punishment, not a good time. It is frustrating that a lot of those behind bars live better lives than many honest folk on the outside. :ugh:

I do think we need to reevaluate some the punishments on some lesser crimes. Maybe more mandatory community service instead of jail time would reduce the strain as well as putting the punishment for minor criminal activity to better use.

[Alastor]

MUG, I errantly posted the wrong thing earlier.

I had found a list of minimum standards for treatment of prisoners, but it turns out that it was according to treaties we had signed with other nations, and is not our domestic standard.

Perhaps you can locate something that tells us what the "minimum prison standards" in America are, and point me to the part that mentions prime beef and TVs?

[Alastor]

The closest thing I could find to a "minimum standard for prisons" was this (http://criminal.findlaw.com/articles/1462.html).

In fact, all the other documents I found on the topic listed "no unusual or inhumane punishment" and that's it. Other than that, most of the sources I looked at said that the prisons themselves set their own standards as they see fit.

I'm missing the part that mentions the Cable TV.

I do know that as a juvenile when I was... visiting let's say... such a facility, there were no TVs. I do know that inmates in prisons are entitled to their own property, and that some do purchase televisions. I don't know of any statue or law or anything that says any prison must provide that or any other luxury on their own however, MUG.

Could you kindly point me to that to which you refer?

[GoDenver]

no innocent individuals in prison. form the "perfect" system... haha, ya right.

[Alastor]

Well, that's just it. There is no "perfect" system available to us currently. Thus is becomes a societal issue of which side of the coin we would prefer to err on.

We can be tougher than is needed and make sure that most criminals do go to and stay in prison, but history has shown us that this sytem often incarcerates innocents frequently.

The other option is to be more lenient than need be, and reduce the number of innocents wrongly incarcerated, but the result is that less genuine criminals serve time.

It's a bitter little... "pick your poison" question I guess. I just wanted to know which poison most of us prefered and why.

[topscribe]

Despite everything that has been done for the last few millennia to fight crime and get civilization into order, crime is doing just fine, thank you. Amid all the debates and measures repeatedly taken, does humankind have the answer? Have they ever had it? Will they ever have it?

[Alastor]

Well... there is a direct correlation between economic well-being and crime rates. When the economy rises, crime rates drop. When the economy drops, crime rates jump.

So perhaps we're not so far from an answer as we think.

[RealBronco]

I think we'd be better off with more innocent people around....but the sad thing about our system is that it is wrong so often and innocent people sit in jail while criminals rome the streets.

So in reality the second option would be even better than the way things work right now...

[FanFromMichigan]

I would much rather let criminals walk free than send innocents to prison. Just think about it. A sane person is much less likely to try something again if they are nearly convicted for a serious crime. Emphasis on sane. But just imagine the desperation and horror of being sent to prison against your will, if you had nothing to do with the crime in question. Under a "let some criminals walk free but don't send innocents to prison" system, if I led a clean life, had a job, family, never got involved with any kind of crime, there should be no reason why I should be sent to prison.

[Javalon]

I think we'd be better off with more innocent people around....but the sad thing about our system is that it is wrong so often and innocent people sit in jail while criminals rome the streets.

So in reality the second option would be even better than the way things work right now...
I really hope it doesn't happen often. Sure it will on occasion but I'm hoping it's an extremely small percentage.

[topscribe]

Well... there is a direct correlation between economic well-being and crime rates. When the economy rises, crime rates drop. When the economy drops, crime rates jump.

So perhaps we're not so far from an answer as we think.
That would be fine if everyone could become rich. Isn't that a stronger indicator of character than of relative wealth? I'm sure you can name honest, decent people who are dirt poor and filthy rich people who are dastardly in seemingly every way.

The point is, while certain sociological indicators point to the rise or demise of crime, it has been with us in every single culture and political system to some degree. We can look at crime rate at a macrosocial level, but to the victim crime is at 100%. Is there no way to eliminate crime?

[Mat'hir Uth Gan]

http://www.strengthtech.com/correct/laws/federal/luxurypr.htm

[Alastor]

Okay, MUG...

But just because the prisoners have something, does that mean the prison has to provide it? I see computers listed on there.... but computers are also used for education, and if a prisoner buys his own then what is the problem?

Certain prisons may indeed do special things to reward certain behaviors or accomplishments by the prisoners... I don't see it substantiated anywhere that these are not special programs used as incentives by the prisons themselves.

Beyond that, I nowhere see that the minimum standard for a prisoner is that he have Cable TV and fine food as you asserted above.

I do find it rather preposterous that they have their own TV network that broadcasts R and X rated films... but I dunno. Perhaps that's a special incentive to get the prisoners trained to do other things (such as broadcast or be a DJ when they get out) and a reward incentive for special cases. I see no indication anywhere that it applied to the general population - and I see nowhere that that's a requirement that the prison must provide as you indicated above.

And of course, those documents and that bill are over ten years old. But I'll stipulate that it's accurate insofar as it goes (and I take issue with some of those items too if you wondered). It just doesn't go real far to addressing your earlier assertions.

[Dream]

I prefer a society that Huxley talks about much in Brave New World. :huh:

[RunYouOver]

I'd rather be too safe than sorry, so I'd let some innocent and all guilty be in jail

[Mat'hir Uth Gan]

Okay, MUG...

But just because the prisoners have something, does that mean the prison has to provide it? I see computers listed on there.... but computers are also used for education, and if a prisoner buys his own then what is the problem?

Certain prisons may indeed do special things to reward certain behaviors or accomplishments by the prisoners... I don't see it substantiated anywhere that these are not special programs used as incentives by the prisons themselves.

Beyond that, I nowhere see that the minimum standard for a prisoner is that he have Cable TV and fine food as you asserted above.

I do find it rather preposterous that they have their own TV network that broadcasts R and X rated films... but I dunno. Perhaps that's a special incentive to get the prisoners trained to do other things (such as broadcast or be a DJ when they get out) and a reward incentive for special cases. I see no indication anywhere that it applied to the general population - and I see nowhere that that's a requirement that the prison must provide as you indicated above.

And of course, those documents and that bill are over ten years old. But I'll stipulate that it's accurate insofar as it goes (and I take issue with some of those items too if you wondered). It just doesn't go real far to addressing your earlier assertions.


There is a course called Criminal Law which completely encompasses your interest. All you need to do is go to the library and check out a Criminal Law book. It will discuss your theories of rehabilitation, the failures of that technique, and the failures of the modern criminal justice system, including the bestowal of benefits upon prisoners.

What you're asking me to research would literally take days to find materials to make a halfway decent memo detailing specifics about the criminal justice system and the prison rights movements including these perks. Because everything I type, you will just ask me to show where I learned that, when I'm learning it in class. You won't find much on the internet, you're going to have to look up law and criminal justice books. I have no problem telling you what I've been taught by professors, but I'm not going to go dig up documentations that back it up. I'll email my Crim Law professor and if she emails me back some citations, I'll post them for you.

If you want to try and make a compelling arguement, feel free to spend your time researching facts that show the things I said are wrong and cite back to them. Otherwise, I'll be very content knowing what I say is factual, and you can be very content thinking what I say is questionable. Perhaps when finals are done I'll be more motivated to burn all my free time finding sources, until then though, you're going to have to do your own research.

[Alastor]

If you want to try and make a compelling arguement, feel free to spend your time researching facts that show the things I said are wrong and cite back to them.

As I said before, the only "minimum standards" I find regarding our penal system is that of "no unusual or inhumane ponishment."

Beyond that, many of the sites I've gone to simply state that most prisons make their own rules.

I'll look into it more though if I get a chance.

[JWinn]

Aww, man! Are you two going to start up again with the education stuff?

Gonna have to seperate you two!! :laugh:













Or make you kiss and make up! :eek:


Just kidding guys. You two make it interesting reading here!