Do you believe in GOD?

[Return of Lava]

I dont understand how you cant.

[The-4th-Amigo]

Yes, I believe in Jesus!
Unfortunetly a lot o f people do not believe in God.

[muse]

I don't...my life took a downturn when I did, so I rejected it. I can't see how god can exist actually...I like things like the Onion which trivialise it more...the 'Christ Returns to the NBA' article is gold.

[rascal]

Yes I believe in God. I find it amazing that people can't, because there are so many things that can't be explained, and the only explanation is God. Furthermore, I would have a hard time finding the meaning of life, if there was no God. If there is no meaning in life, what prevents me and everyone else from doing (killing, raping, stealing, etc) whatever they want?

[Broncofan-13]

yes I believe in god, but I dont really come to the boards to have my faith questioned.

[orangenblue420]

At this point in my life I am in a quandry. I believe with my heart there is a God and I believe in Jesus. But I dont believe in religion and the "practice" thereof. I believe we (people in general) have taken advantage of it and twisted it and now its a HUGE money maker.

I live in the "Bible Belt" and I am surrounded by some huge Christian organizations and see in the inner workings of some, being in the legal field, and it totally disgusts me.

There are so many unanswered questions, both for and against, that it comes down to your personal belief and faith.

And Broncofan 13, its a topic for discussion, thats why its in the anything but football thread...........and if you ddidnt like being questioned, why did you voluntarily answer?

[RunByDesign]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
I dont understand how you cant.

I will not pretend to know one way or the other. In my opinion, God can niether be proven or unproven.

So called "proof" is based upon stories. "Disproof" is almost always based on inexact sciences or studies of unexplanable events. To committ to one or the other is to be without understanding, IMO.

Will I be the sorry one for this point of view? I really don't care. If I should be wasting my time performing ritualistic worship of something that there is no proof of but stories, then in my opinion, God should come and tell me so hisself/herself?. Is that so much to ask?

For all those religous peoples who may be offended for this simplistic, but realistic view, I say that in reality, I am not much different from you; albiet I do not take part in ritualistic worship of anything. I indeed am a good person who believes in good and bad and has morals. How? You say? Just because I don't belive in what you have blindly believed in, does not mean I have to be without love, justice or any other characteristic that makes a person whole and good.

Taken into consideration of this question is the fact that there are THOUSANDS of religions and millions of religous views on our little planet.

Stories is what they are.

Ways of control is what they amount to.

[Broncofan-13]

Originally posted by orangenblue420


And Broncofan 13, its a topic for discussion, thats why its in the anything but football thread...........and if you ddidnt like being questioned, why did you voluntarily answer?

Im sorry. this wasnt directed at lava or anyone on this board. but due to the fact that Im not a frequent church goer, people have looked at me like a heathen. I just got a little defensive. luckily, one of my best friends is a frequent churchgoer, and he doesnt think I am evil cuz I dont go to sermons. so I know there are many people out there who dont judge you on faith alone. my bad, lava. but I do believe in god and jesus, and not to get preachy, but I love them.

[Javalon]

Originally posted by rascal
Yes I believe in God. I find it amazing that people can't, because there are so many things that can't be explained, and the only explanation is God. Furthermore, I would have a hard time finding the meaning of life, if there was no God. If there is no meaning in life, what prevents me and everyone else from doing (killing, raping, stealing, etc) whatever they want?

Do you believe in the Christian God or just god as a concept?

Just to play the Devil's Advocate (pun intended ;)) I would like to address a couple of items in your statement:

1) "there are so many things that can't be explained, and the only explanation is God."

Mankind has long tried to grapple with issues they cannot understand and have thought up higher powers to fill in the blanks. The Greeks are a perfect example; we call their religion "mythology" and think them a little silly for believing in obvious fabrications. But how is the "modern" view on God any different? There are so many things that, in the past, humans couldn't explain that are now easily explainable. Who's to say that, given enough time, we won't answer most or all of the questions you now consider unexplainable?

2) "Furthermore, I would have a hard time finding the meaning of life, if there was no God. If there is no meaning in life, what prevents me and everyone else from doing (killing, raping, stealing, etc) whatever they want?"

You obviously discount the hoards of non-believers out there that manage to find meaning in life despite not believing in God. Do you not see that, as a generally intelligent species, humankind has the intelligence to see the wisdom of not just "doing whatever they want?" There have been terrible events in the world's history that illustrate that there are some individuals who have tried to do whatever they want. But many of them acted in the name of God; this is an exact counter to your statement that God gives meaning to life and therefore keeps people from killing, raping, stealing, etc.

Now, I'm not trying to be overly harsh here. It's just that in discussions like this one, there are often answers like yours that are given without looking at the world from a little bit broader perspective. I am not attacking your (or anybody else's) personal beliefs; rather, I just get a little bemused at answers like that one I'm curious as to the thoughts behind your post.

[rascal]

I am a devout Christian, and many of the things I said were simply to start a discussion and were not what I necessarily believed in. I have studied many other religions (Islam and Buddhism) and have had experience living in countries such as China and Japan so I have a broad perspective of the world. I was not offended by your comments, and I hope that mine did not offend you, I simply made them to start the discussion since it appeared that it wasn't going anywhere. Before I start this, please do not become offended (Javalon or anyone else) about what I am saying. I respect your rights to believe in God, or not believe in God, and as you said I am not attaking you, or anyone else, beliefs.

Addressing your points:

1) Just to jump into the fray....Where do you, and others, think all of this, our surroundings, came from? How did the universe become the universe? It can't come from nothing. It is true many of the things that ancient scholars found unexplainable have been explained to a degree. But the question I posed above still remains...where did all of this come from? I'm an engineer, so I have a scientific background, and I find it impossible to get all of this from nothing. Someone or something had to create all of this...and that points to God in my opinion.

2) It is true that many horrible acts have been done in the name of Christianity and many other religions. That is perhaps the darkest part of any religion, and one that is often shunned by many religious followers. However, just because there are people that misconstrue what the basic beliefs are of a religion does not make that religious belief false. If you have studied the Bible, you know that Jesus was a man who would condemn many of the horrible acts described earlier. He stressed how we should treat others and how we should live our lives, which today's world would describe a person who lived that lifestyle as weak, humble, or meek.

I assume that you do not believe in God. If you do so then I apologize. I will not go into Jesus yet, but start with God. Because if you don't believe in God, how can one expect to believe in Jesus. The second question I have for you is this: Why do you not believe in God?

I won't be able to respond till later tonight as I have meetings rest of the day, but I will try to respond ASAP to your comments.

[orang/blu in LA]

Well, i believe in God but don't subscribe to a certain religion at all. i consider myself more of a spiritual person, as i do have a very strong faith in a higher power. i was raised by my father who is mostly Zoroastrian (he's from Kurdistan of Iraq) and my mother who was raised Catholic (she's Belgian, but raised in Minnesota) - two VERY different people with different beliefs, so my "religious" upbringing was always very muddled... though they let me decide for myself what i believed in. through the years i've found my own beliefs, and they make me happy, and that's what's important.

I have no problem with people that don't believe in God. That's fine. In MY life i've found reasons to believe, and that's why i do. As long as it's not used as a crutch or an excuse, i support anyone and their religious beliefs. I DO, however, take issue with the idea that b/c someone is a particular relgion that means their faith is stronger than mine (which, going to catholic school - for the education - i was told a few times)...or that for someone to be good, they must believe in God. I don't think someone has to be religious to have morals or ethics- one does not hinge on the other. And i don't think that one has to go to church to have a relationship with God either. I believe in God very strongly - but would never get married in a church (not that i should, but you know, this is an example) - i would get married in the mountains, or by the ocean, as that's where i feel God's presence the most. but that's just me. Other than that i won't get into the particulars of what i believe in... unless someone really wants to know. I'll just leave it at that. :)

[orangenblue420]

http://nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/136458p-121403c.html

[WoodlandPkPunk]

Yes I do. I am not a holy roller or really a consistant church goer, but I truly beleive in the power of prayer.

[Javalon]

Originally posted by rascal
I am a devout Christian, and many of the things I said were simply to start a discussion and were not what I necessarily believed in. I have studied many other religions (Islam and Buddhism) and have had experience living in countries such as China and Japan so I have a broad perspective of the world. I was not offended by your comments, and I hope that mine did not offend you, I simply made them to start the discussion since it appeared that it wasn't going anywhere. Before I start this, please do not become offended (Javalon or anyone else) about what I am saying. I respect your rights to believe in God, or not believe in God, and as you said I am not attaking you, or anyone else, beliefs.

Don't worry, I'm not offended in the slightest. I have always enjoyed theological discussions and I can take either side of the argument. :)

1) Just to jump into the fray....Where do you, and others, think all of this, our surroundings, came from? How did the universe become the universe? It can't come from nothing. It is true many of the things that ancient scholars found unexplainable have been explained to a degree. But the question I posed above still remains...where did all of this come from? I'm an engineer, so I have a scientific background, and I find it impossible to get all of this from nothing. Someone or something had to create all of this...and that points to God in my opinion.

If you can conceive of God (or any god) existing forever then why can you not conceive of the universe existing forever? If God wasn't created then why do you assume the universe was created? The human brain has a near impossible time wrapping itself around the idea of infinity but if it can apply to God then why not the universe?

(On a side note, the Big Bang theory only goes so far but, even if you believed it, there is nothing to tell you what existed before the Bang)

2) It is true that many horrible acts have been done in the name of Christianity and many other religions. That is perhaps the darkest part of any religion, and one that is often shunned by many religious followers. However, just because there are people that misconstrue what the basic beliefs are of a religion does not make that religious belief false. If you have studied the Bible, you know that Jesus was a man who would condemn many of the horrible acts described earlier. He stressed how we should treat others and how we should live our lives, which today's world would describe a person who lived that lifestyle as weak, humble, or meek.

Yes, but you had stated that if there was no God, there was no meaning to life and if there's no meaning to life then what would keep people from "doing (killing, raping, stealing, etc) whatever they want."

My point was that belief in God (and Christ) does not keep people from doing whatever they want. And, on the other hand, not believing in God doesn't mean you'll do those exact things. I think most people are decent people who just want to get by in the world. But there are always those who don't, regardless of their religious beliefs. I fully understand that there are those who misconstrue Christianity's basic precepts, and there always will be.

And Jesus was not the first man to stress the ideas attributed to him, he just happened to have a divine background to back it up. ;)

I assume that you do not believe in God. If you do so then I apologize. I will not go into Jesus yet, but start with God. Because if you don't believe in God, how can one expect to believe in Jesus. The second question I have for you is this: Why do you not believe in God?

Ah, now there's the real question. If you noticed in my original post I said right up front that I was going to play the Devil's Advocate. As it happens, I do believe in God. I was raised Baptist. However, I no longer believe that the Church has it right. There were always too many questions that pastors, Sunday school teachers, etc. would refuse to (or couldn't) answer. Take it on FAITH, they'd say. I got so sick of that line I just couldn't take it any more.

I do believe there is a God but I'm not sure I buy into the idea that God created us and now insists that we worship him. That seems a little vain. (God, please don't strike me down for saying that!) And I have many other thoughts on the subject but I'm starving so I'll leave it at that.

Ciao!

[LawDog]

(Using "man, he and his" in a gender neutral way)

Mankind always tries to put things in a context that makes it so (1) he can get his mental arms around it, and (2) try and explain it to someone else. Throughout history man has tried to describe God in such a way. But God's nature is not limited to what we can see, feel and otherwise directly experience. That is the beauty of faith. Trusting in something that you have no possibility of proving or controlling. My own feelings are that religions are a man created way of trying to accomplish points (1) and (2), supra. You and I can be looking at the same cloud and have two entirely different interpretations of what it looks like. God exists whether we believe or not, we choose to have faith or not and through the exercise of free will, we accept the consequence of our choice.

Sorry for the stream of consciousness method of this post, I was just thinking and typing...

Interesting thread. I am interested to see how it goes along.

[Return of Lava]

OK, time for me to get in this. I have been reading your posts eating my Taco Bell and i got pretty much what i expected. Some of you believe, some of you dont. For those of you who dont, its pretty sad. Just because nobody has the answers to your questions, you dont want to follow. The answer is that there is no answer. We are human, we will never understand. Thats what faith is all about. The thing i want to ask is, what do you have to lose? The only thing i can think of would be a little fun. I find it selfish that non-believers in general just want to have fun and have no respect for the one who created them. Then they blame HIM when things go wrong, (like they really deserved something good) not knowing that there is also a devil. It is the devil who creates badness and GOD permits it only becuse it will make you stronger in the long run. Some of you just cant see that. A death (or any other badness) is never the end of anything as we can all be brought back for everlasting life. That means this time on earth now is so small it cant even be imagined. You think you know whats best when you have no idea.

[orang/blu in LA]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
... I find it selfish that non-believers in general just want to have fun and have no respect for the one who created them. They blame HIM when things go wrong, not knowing that there is also a devil. It is the devil who creates badness and GOD permits it only becuse it will make you stronger in the long run. Some of you just cant see that. A death is never the end of anything as we can all be brought back for everlasting life. That means this time on earth now is so small it cant even be imagined. You think you know whats best when you have no idea.

Well, Lava, i completely respect your opinion - and i DO believe in God...but i disagree with your thought that people who do NOT believe in God are selfish and just want to have fun. The people i know who have no belief in God have usually arrived at that decision after years of debate (and were usually quite religous before) and are great, highly intelligent people- they just simply don't believe in God. And they've never then blamed God when things go wrong....but those are the people i know. maybe you know people quite different, as it sounds like your experiences are the opposite.

Like i said, I personally DO believe in God, but i also think that he (for the sake of a better pronoun) is so beyond anything we can comprehend, that i doubt he would be offended if someone didn't believe in him. If that person is good, respectful to others, and respectful of life in general...i think that's what God ultimately wants... I think he'd like to see someone do kind deeds no matter their faith, no matter what they think will happen in the end. But that's totally my opinion..... :)

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by orang/blu in LA
Like i said, I personally DO believe in God, but i also think that he (for the sake of a better pronoun) is so beyond anything we can comprehend, that i doubt he would be offended if someone didn't believe in him. If that person is good, respectful to others, and respectful of life in general...i think that's what God ultimately wants... I think he'd like to see someone do kind deeds no matter their faith, no matter what they think will happen in the end. But that's totally my opinion..... :) You are right. Those who do not believe still have a chance to be resurected, which gives me even more respect for GOD cause they really dont deserve in my opinion. I want to know how a person can be talked OUT of believing though.

[RunByDesign]

Originally posted by portisistheman
I will not pretend to know one way or the other. In my opinion, God can niether be proven or unproven.

So called "proof" is based upon stories. "Disproof" is almost always based on inexact sciences or studies of unexplanable events. To committ to one or the other is to be without understanding, IMO.

Will I be the sorry one for this point of view? I really don't care. If I should be wasting my time performing ritualistic worship of something that there is no proof of but stories, then in my opinion, God should come and tell me so hisself/herself?. Is that so much to ask?

For all those religous peoples who may be offended for this simplistic, but realistic view, I say that in reality, I am not much different from you; albiet I do not take part in ritualistic worship of anything. I indeed am a good person who believes in good and bad and has morals. How? You say? Just because I don't belive in what you have blindly believed in, does not mean I have to be without love, justice or any other characteristic that makes a person whole and good.

Taken into consideration of this question is the fact that there are THOUSANDS of religions and millions of religous views on our little planet.

Stories is what they are.

Ways of control is what they amount to.

I'm a bit suprised noone has confronted me about this statement.

[Javalon]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
[BThe answer is that there is no answer. We are human, we will never understand. Thats what faith is all about. The thing i want to ask is, what do you have to lose? The only thing i can think of would be a little fun. I find it selfish that non-believers in general just want to have fun and have no respect for the one who created them.[/B]

So, you think people choose to not believe in God in order to have a little extra fun? If so, you have an over-simplified view of these religious issues, my friend. You're not differentiating between those who don't believe in God from those who deny God. That's huge difference.

Then they blame HIM when things go wrong, (like they really deserved something good) not knowing that there is also a devil. It is the devil who creates badness and GOD permits it only becuse it will make you stronger in the long run. Some of you just cant see that. A death (or any other badness) is never the end of anything as we can all be brought back for everlasting life. That means this time on earth now is so small it cant even be imagined. You think you know whats best when you have no idea.

People who don't believe in God are not going to blame God when things go wrong...because they don't believe in God. That's like blaming your fairy godmother for not turning your pumpkin into a nice big orange carriage.

Satan creates badness and God permits it? Have you never pondered how much the stories in the Bible sound like updated mythology designed to gloss over the deeper, darker issues of humanity? Christians have a wide spectrum of views on the Bible. Some take everything in it literally, word for word. Others believe the Old Testament are just stories to convey lessons much like Greek myth while the New Testament is the real deal. And others believe the entire Bible are just parables leading us toward the acceptance of Christ as our savior. The manner in which you regard the Bible and its teachings will have enormous impact on your personal beliefs. But if we're all following the same guidelines what difference does it make? And following that logic, why would it matter whether or not you believe in God if you're still following the same guidelines?

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by Javalon
People who don't believe in God are not going to blame God when things go wrong...because they don't believe in God. That's like blaming your fairy godmother for not turning your pumpkin into a nice big orange carriage.
People who dont believe in GOD really DO blame him for troubles, it was even stated earlier that some poster started to believe but things went wrong so he let it go. They find comfort in the fact that they dont have to obey and worship HIM because their life took a bad turn. It was probably a test of faith. Would you choose your mother, father, brother, best friend, pet dog, or whoever, over GOD? I certainly hope not because they all cant do a damn thing for you when you die, and even if you dont believe it, GOD can! Im not gonna try to persuade others over the internet, its too hard, but i have trouble respecting someone when they dont respect GOD.

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by Javalon
So, you think people choose to not believe in God in order to have a little extra fun? If so, you have an over-simplified view of these religious issues, my friend. You're not differentiating between those who don't believe in God from those who deny God. That's huge difference. Yes i Do think thats the biggest reason. They want to drink and smoke and have as much sex without anybody telling them its wrong. For those who dont partake in that but still dont believe, they are still misled either way, its good for them they do good by their hearts, but they still have lost sight of what their purpose is. We are supposed to try to get that everlasting life so we can be happy and weed out all badness.

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by portisistheman
I'm a bit suprised noone has confronted me about this statement. you are definitely included in my posts

[RunByDesign]

Originally posted by Javalon
why would it matter whether or not you believe in God if you're still following the same guidelines?

Trying to convey this point to someone who has readily accepted a religous program for the span of a lifetime is often a difficult task. Unaware and convinced that they are exactly the opposite of the narrowmindedness that denying this notion represents.

Just my opinion and experiences.

[Return of Lava]

i could talk about this all day, my being a jehovah witness, i am used to going door to door to talk to people. so i can talk all day about this kind of thing.

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by Javalon
And following that logic, why would it matter whether or not you believe in God if you're still following the same guidelines? do you wish to go to paradise? do you even believe in that?

[Return of Lava]

and while we are talking about this, do we have any devil worshipers here? i would hate to find that one of you were cause if it was up to me, i'd kill all of them right now!

[RunByDesign]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
you are definitely included in my posts

I hope this doesn't mean we can't hang out at Club Lava anymore!! LOL

But in all seriousness, Lava....I see a bit of zeal in your judgements about non believers...my decisions about religion are as broad based as my little brain can possibly fathom.

Realizations have shaped my mind to the point it is today. It is that simple. I do not find it productive for myself to be committed to a point of view that a majority of my neighbors or friends or people in general will accept. I strive to keep things as real as possible for me and the ones I love.

I don't ask what if and well maybe I should believe this. I believe what is realistic and proven in my eyes. I have not had the pleasure of talking to or seeing God and until I do, I think my view is warranted to some degree.

I may be wrong, because as I said before, I won't pretend I know the answers. I may be right...but to tell you the truth...I really don't think it matters if I am wrong or right...one little human on one little planet is all any of us represent.

[Javalon]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
Yes i Do think thats the biggest reason. They want to drink and smoke and have as much sex without anybody telling them its wrong. For those who dont partake in that but still dont believe, they are still misled either way, its good for them they do good by their hearts, but they still have lost sight of what their purpose is. We are supposed to try to get that everlasting life so we can be happy and weed out all badness.
You're still not differentiating between those who don't believe and those who deny God. If you believe God exists but choose to have more fun by not following his rules, then you are denying God. If you simply don't believe in God, you aren't doing so just in an attempt to have more fun.

Originally posted by Return of Lava
People who dont believe in GOD really DO blame him for troubles, it was even stated earlier that some poster started to believe but things went wrong so he let it go. They find comfort in the fact that they dont have to obey and worship HIM because their life took a bad turn. It was probably a test of faith.

Okay, now you're lumping all non-believers into a single group. A few might behave the way you describe. But don't be stereotyping groups of people like that because, when you do, you close yourself off to all the nuances of individuals and what makes them tick.

Originally posted by Return of Lava
i could talk about this all day, my being a jehovah witness, i am used to going door to door to talk to people. so i can talk all day about this kind of thing.

Ah, that would explain a few things. One of my best friends back in Colorado was a Jehovah's witness. I never could get him to be a little more open-minded. It was always his way or the highway. Whatever he was taught was the truth and there was no reason to question it. And that's fine. I'm not here to change anybody's beliefs, just to have a fun, theological discussion.

[RunByDesign]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
Yes i Do think thats the biggest reason. They want to drink and smoke and have as much sex without anybody telling them its wrong. For those who dont partake in that but still dont believe, they are still misled either way, its good for them they do good by their hearts, but they still have lost sight of what their purpose is. We are supposed to try to get that everlasting life so we can be happy and weed out all badness.

Lava, wasn't that your thread "Club Lava"?

Just making a comparison to the drinking and smoking and sex statement.

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by portisistheman
Lava, wasn't that your thread "Club Lava"?

Just making a comparison to the drinking and smoking and sex statement. this is just a board, i dont do any of that in real life, i also cuss a few times on this board which i also dont do in real life i be just joking on this internet. i know its still not right but i apologize for it.

[RunByDesign]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
this is just a board, i dont do any of that in real life, i also cuss a few times on this board which i also dont do in real life i be just joking on this internet. i know its still not right but i apologize for it.

I am not judging you for your statements. I think they are niether right nor wrong. Just pointing out the obvious.

[orang/blu in LA]

Yeah, i don't think you need to apologize either. I mean, i read that Club Lava thread and i was entertained... :) Besides, i think it's okay to have fun, real or imagined, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by Javalon
You're still not differentiating between those who don't believe and those who deny God. If you believe God exists but choose to have more fun by not following his rules, then you are denying God. If you simply don't believe in God, you aren't doing so just in an attempt to have more fun. as far as im concerned there is only 3 levels, believers, non believers, and devil worshipers. i dont really see a difference whether you deny or just dont believe, its the same thing. if you dont believe, you deny his existence, some non believers are cool enough to try to eliminate sin but if thats the case, give me a reason why you wouldnt believe.

[RunByDesign]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
as far as im concerned there is only 3 levels, believers, non believers, and devil worshipers. i dont really see a difference whether you deny or just dont believe, its the same thing. if you dont believe, you deny his existence, some non believers are cool enough to try to eliminate sin but if thats the case, give me a reason why you wouldnt believe.

So is this a common view among Jehova Witnesses? Or does your religous opinions have another contibuting view?

[Return of Lava]

let me ask this, how did you all become bronco fans?

[orang/blu in LA]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
....some non believers are cool enough to try to eliminate sin but if thats the case, give me a reason why you wouldnt believe.

Just to be clear - are you saying that you can't understand why people who are "non believers" and yet don't sin, don't just believe in God? I'm not even sure if i worded that correctly. if that's the case, then i'll say that a lot of people chose not to "sin" for personal reasons that have nothing to do with God. As i said earlier, i don't think that ethics or morals are reliant on religion. I believe in God, but that's certainly NOT the reason i'm NOT out there killing people. There are many reasons i'm kept "in line" so to speak- and though my faith in god is strong, ultimately it comes down to that i don't want to do things that I feel are wrong - and so it's me who keeps myself in line. Though of course, i do have a feeling that my "line" and your line would be vey different. ;)

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by portisistheman
So is this a common view among Jehova Witnesses? Or does your religous opinions have another contibuting view? i dont know that jehovah witnesses all think that. this is just from what i think

[RunByDesign]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
let me ask this, how did you all become bronco fans?

John Elway, watching him play.

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by orang/blu in LA
Just to be clear - are you saying that you can't understand why people who are "non believers" and yet don't sin, don't just believe in God? I'm not even sure if i worded that correctly. if that's the case, then i'll say that a lot of people chose not to "sin" for personal reasons that have nothing to do with God. As i said earlier, i don't think that ethics or morals are reliant on religion. I believe in God, but that's certainly NOT the reason i'm NOT out there killing people. There are many reasons i'm kept "in line" so to speak- and though my faith in god is strong, ultimately it comes down to that i don't want to do things that I feel are wrong - and so it's me who keeps myself in line. Though of course, i do have a feeling that my "line" and your line would be vey different. ;) you're right, it is very hard to word it, even harder typing. i understand the need to do good cause it makes you feel good and keeps your conscience clear and all that, but what about when you get older and eventually die? do you have plans after that (not neccessarily meaning you OBLA)?

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by portisistheman
John Elway, watching him play. now that he is gone, why do you still follow the team?

[RunByDesign]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
now that he is gone, why do you still follow the team?

yes.

[Return of Lava]

i want to try to relate this to football. Lets say every team is a different religion. Each team has its followers, and some just dont watch. if anybody ever said "i dont watch football, its pointless a bunch of guys running into each other" you all would be there to talk about the inside depth and intracate details why you love the game right? also, to other team's "followers" you would be telling them how much your team means and whats so great about your team and how you would never leave them etc. do you see where im trying to go with this?

[orang/blu in LA]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
you're right, it is very hard to word it, even harder typing. i understand the need to do good cause it makes you feel good and keeps your conscience clear and all that, but what about when you get older and eventually die? do you have plans after that (not neccessarily meaning you OBLA)?

Well, after death is where i'm sure our beliefs vary considerably, though i won't get into the specifics unless you really want me to. Yes, i do believe that death is not the end, and i DO think that what i do here affects life after that ... though i don't make my daily decisions based on that - I make them b/c as a human, i know what it's like to be hurt - and i don't want to hurt others (for example). Basically, i live my life to be the best that i can be (i know, i sound cheesy) - not for anyone else, not for any other reason.

[RunByDesign]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
i want to try to relate this to football. Lets say every team is a different religion. Each team has its followers, and some just dont watch. if anybody ever said "i dont watch football, its pointless a bunch of guys running into each other" you all would be there to talk about the inside depth and intracate details why you love the game right? also, to other team's "followers" you would be telling them how much your team means and whats so great about your team and how you would never leave them etc. do you see where im trying to go with this?

Yes I see where you are trying to go woth this. Let me opinionate.

Football is entertainment. Religion is...well...is many things, but I think entertainment doesn't rank too highly.

If religion was half as entertaining as football, I probably would have a favorite religion.

I think that puts it best.

[RunByDesign]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
, but what about when you get older and eventually die? do you have plans after that (not neccessarily meaning you OBLA)?

Not to be an ass but, you will be dead. What plans are we to make? I look around the cemetaries and I see nothing but alot of dead dudes just sitting there. I don't think they planned to just chill there, or maybe they did. If I could plan, I would surf the universe looking for the hottest girls and the best space herb. lol.

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by portisistheman
Yes I see where you are trying to go woth this. Let me opinionate.

Football is entertainment. Religion is...well...is many things, but I think entertainment doesn't rank too highly.

If religion was half as entertaining as football, I probably would have a favorite religion.

I think that puts it best. this is exactly what i meant by saying that the sacrifice is more about havung fun (or entertainment) its like saying, id rather watch football than go to church and learn (i myself am even included in this but i HATE that i am). and if entertainment doesnt rank too high, what does it say about us when we chose it over religion? i hope that when i grow up, i am more disciplined than i am now.

[orang/blu in LA]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
i want to try to relate this to football. Lets say every team is a different religion. Each team has its followers, and some just dont watch. if anybody ever said "i dont watch football, its pointless a bunch of guys running into each other" you all would be there to talk about the inside depth and intracate details why you love the game right? also, to other team's "followers" you would be telling them how much your team means and whats so great about your team and how you would never leave them etc. do you see where im trying to go with this?

i DO see where you're going with this...but trust me, some people just don't like football. Believe me, i'm a girl, i've tried convincing my friends (i've explained the game, gotten my boyfriend to explain etc), and ultimately the only one who watches it with us watches b/c she likes to see the guys be macho and run into each other ;) Of course i don't understand how people aren't hooked on football the way i am- but i only have that opinion b/c i happen to love it...They might say the same thing about golf or something, which i don't care to watch. But who am i to say who's right? Nobody really knows. It's all opinion - as is religion. As long as no one turns off the TV in the middle of a Bronco game, i'm a-okay. :)

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by portisistheman
Not to be an ass but, you will be dead. What plans are we to make? I look around the cemetaries and I see nothing but alot of dead dudes just sitting there. I don't think they planned to just chill there, or maybe they did. If I could plan, I would surf the universe looking for the hottest girls and the best space herb. lol. the plan i want to make is to live again. this time, FOREVER! Its a good thing to think about even if you dont really know if its going to happen.

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by orang/blu in LA
i DO see where you're going with this...but trust me, some people just don't like football. Believe me, i'm a girl, i've tried convincing my friends (i've explained the game, gotten my boyfriend to explain etc), and ultimately the only one who watches it with us watches b/c she likes to see the guys be macho and run into each other ;) Of course i don't understand how people aren't hooked on football the way i am- but i only have that opinion b/c i happen to love it...They might say the same thing about golf or something, which i don't care to watch. But who am i to say who's right? Nobody really knows. It's all opinion. As long as no one turns off the TV in the middle of a Bronco game, i'm a-okay. :) So i guess I just have to say, i love "football" so much, and i cant believe you dont love it too. its so much fun and you are missing out. When we get to the "SuperBowl" you will have wished you followed us. Its your decision and i understand, but at the same time, i dont understand.

[RunByDesign]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
this is exactly what i meant by saying that the sacrifice is more about havung fun (or entertainment) its like saying, id rather watch football than go to church and learn (i myself am even included in this but i HATE that i am). and if entertainment doesnt rank too high, what does it say about us when we chose it over religion? i hope that when i grow up, i am more disciplined than i am now.

The problem with this statement is that you cannot compare religion to football. "go to church and learn" I ask you, learn what? Ceremony, story, ritual? That is fine, but it trains our thoughts and way of life and acceptance of others who are different. Football is as black and white as it gets when you minus the human factor. You versus them. And it's a game. If life is a game, then this would be a viable comparison, I guess. If religion is as black and white as you versus them, then I guess this comparison would be correct. This is one of the reasons I do not have religion. People who take it to this extreme, I am right, you are wrong mentality is a problem.

[orang/blu in LA]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
So i guess I just have to say, i love "football" so much, and i cant believe you dont love it too. its so much fun and you are missing out. When we get to the "SuperBowl" you will have wished you followed us. Its your decision and i understand, but at the same time, i dont understand.

Exactly - it means a lot to you, so you don't understand how others don't see that too. I know. I feel that way sometimes too, when i explain my beliefs. But you know, i'm sure there's some "golf tournament" too, that other people wished we'd aim to join them at... :)

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by portisistheman
The problem with this statement is that you cannot compare religion to football. "go to church and learn" I ask you, learn what? Ceremony, story, ritual? That is fine, but it trains our thoughts and way of life and acceptance of others who are different. Football is as black and white as it gets when you minus the human factor. You versus them. And it's a game. If life is a game, then this would be a viable comparison, I guess. If religion is as black and white as you versus them, then I guess this comparison would be correct. This is one of the reasons I do not have religion. People who take it to this extreme, I am right, you are wrong mentality is a problem. learn what? learn whatever religion you picked. you picked a football team to enjoy didnt you? why do you watch, its entertaining? same thing with learning about GOD. it is black and white, you either follow or you dont. there are many situations yeah, but football has just as many. its not all about win or lose, but how you get there, in life you win or lose, cant do both. you say i am right you are wrong everyday in the talk smack forum dont you? its pretty much the same thing. give me an example of taking it to the extreme and ill relate it to football

[orang/blu in LA]

Originally posted by portisistheman
Not to be an ass but, you will be dead. What plans are we to make? I look around the cemetaries and I see nothing but alot of dead dudes just sitting there. I don't think they planned to just chill there, or maybe they did. If I could plan, I would surf the universe looking for the hottest girls and the best space herb. lol.

You crack me up, by the way. :)

[RunByDesign]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
same thing with learning about GOD. it is black and white, you either follow or you dont.

My ? is for this statement. Would God say this? Follow me or do not? I would tell God to shove it if he said that to me. I would hope that God would say, portisistheman, I am your creator and you have lived a good and decent life and I accept you the way you are. Do you realize me and accept me as your creator and God?

In your opinion, what does "following", when applied to God, entail?

[RunByDesign]

Originally posted by orang/blu in LA
You crack me up, by the way. :)

Honestly, I try... *bow*

[Javalon]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
learn what? learn whatever religion you picked. you picked a football team to enjoy didnt you? why do you watch, its entertaining? same thing with learning about GOD. it is black and white, you either follow or you dont. there are many situations yeah, but football has just as many. its not all about win or lose, but how you get there, in life you win or lose, cant do both. you say i am right you are wrong everyday in the talk smack forum dont you? its pretty much the same thing. give me an example of taking it to the extreme and ill relate it to football

This football comparison is silly. Christianity = Denver Broncos. Jesus Christ = John Elway. God = Pat Bowlen. Satan = Al Davis. Heaven = the Super Bowl. Sinning = Holding call.

Well, I hope we have the second coming of Elway real soon so we can get back to the Super Bowl.

Football is a horrible comparison to religion.

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by portisistheman
My ? is for this statement. Would God say this? Follow me or do not? I would tell God to shove it if he said that to me. I would hope that God would say, portisistheman, I am your creator and you have lived a good and decent life and I accept you the way you are. Do you realize me and accept me as your creator and God?

In your opinion, what does "following", when applied to God, entail? In a sense, GOD HAS said this. He gave you the gift of free will, you can do with it as you please. that is like saying, you can follow me or not, its your choice. Following by the way is just to say worship or serve or have faith in or something like that. Naturally, he loves us, but you have to take it upon yourself to actually realize HIS power and bow down to it. He could easily tear us to shreads but he doesnt so we should be thankful and serve him for that alone, let alone all the other things he has actually done and will do for us.

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by Javalon
This football comparison is silly. Christianity = Denver Broncos. Jesus Christ = John Elway. God = Pat Bowlen. Satan = Al Davis. Heaven = the Super Bowl. Sinning = Holding call.

Well, I hope we have the second coming of Elway real soon so we can get back to the Super Bowl.

Football is a horrible comparison to religion. what are you talking about you just helped me out. If you pay attention, you will notice its the same thing. you would just rather have faith in entertainment than GOD maybe.

[RunByDesign]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
Following by the way is just to say worship
or serve

Perhaps people who are good and decent but do not believe in God can "serve"? By being true and just people. Do you agree?

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by portisistheman
Perhaps people who are good and decent but do not believe in God can "serve"? By being true and just people. Do you agree? no thats not serving thats just being nice. which is good but not enough. you also have to recognize the higher power as superior to everything else in your life, and turn your life over to him, or at least try.

[RunByDesign]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
no thats not serving thats just being nice. which is good but not enough. you also have to recognize the higher power as superior to everything else in your life, and turn your life over to him, or at least try.

Why should we do this? Because he can rip us to shreds? The idea of a God who would ordinarily rip us to shreds for his amusement but spares us if we are ritualistically proficient to him turns my stomach. Again, I would tell him to shove it. Shred me.

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by portisistheman
Why should we do this? Because he can rip us to shreds? The idea of a God who would ordinarily rip us to shreds for his amusement but spares us if we are ritualistically proficient to him turns my stomach. Again, I would tell him to shove it. Shred me. i said he could, i never said he wanted to. he CREATED us. do you fail to see all he has done for you? he gave you everything you have. he allows you to do what you want. if you turn your back on him just cause "you can" then you are already shreded

[Javalon]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
what are you talking about you just helped me out. If you pay attention, you will notice its the same thing. you would just rather have faith in entertainment than GOD maybe.

I think you're trying to make a deep statement there but you're trying a little too hard.

Originally posted by Return of Lava
i said he could, i never said he wanted to. he CREATED us. do you fail to see all he has done for you? he gave you everything you have. he allows you to do what you want. if you turn your back on him just cause "you can" then you are already shreded

So, you think God created us to worship Him? Why? What purpose does it serve? Is it vanity on His part?

[RunByDesign]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
i said he could, i never said he wanted to. he CREATED us. do you fail to see all he has done for you? he gave you everything you have. he allows you to do what you want. if you turn your back on him just cause "you can" then you are already shreded

I would be turning my back on a story that has been told by many different people. Being the little inefficient human being that I am, don't you think God would realize this and give me some sort of proof? A sign?

[RunByDesign]

Originally posted by Javalon
.So, you think God created us to worship Him? Why? What purpose does it serve? Is it vanity on His part?

I have wondered this.

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by Javalon
ISo, you think God created us to worship Him? Why? What purpose does it serve? Is it vanity on His part? if you are going to question everything then why do you even live. you will never have all the answers. its so sad how ungrateful it appears that you would just question everything! Do you know better than GOD? Maybe he created you so he could have something to do i really dont know but it doesnt matter to me im just grateful he decided to do it. If you dont believe, fine you dont believe but if i answer that question, would it really CHANGE anything? No, you would just ask me another question and another question and another question until you find one that makes you have a reason NOT to believe.

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by portisistheman
I would be turning my back on a story that has been told by many different people. Being the little inefficient human being that I am, don't you think God would realize this and give me some sort of proof? A sign? You already have had a million signs. none bigger than the fact that youre alive. if you are waiting for him to walk in your bedroom and introduce himself then its no wonder you dont believe in him.

[Javalon]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
if you are going to question everything then why do you even live. you will never have all the answers. its so sad how ungrateful it appears that you would just question everything! Do you know better than GOD? Maybe he created you so he could have something to do i really dont know but it doesnt matter to me im just grateful he decided to do it. If you dont believe, fine you dont believe but if i answer that question, would it really CHANGE anything? No, you would just ask me another question and another question and another question until you find one that makes you have a reason NOT to believe.

I never said I didn't believe in God. I do. You just assume I don't because I question things.

Okay, we'll here's another question: If God created us, He obviously instilled us with curiousity so why would he mind us questioning our religion?

Before you try to answer that let me say that it's a rhetorical question. I don't expect you to have the answers to my questions; you're not God, after all. :) But I see absolutely no reason why I or anybody else should NOT question what human beings have written down in a book called the Bible and expect us to base our lives on its teachings.

[RunByDesign]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
You already have had a million signs. none bigger than the fact that youre alive. if you are waiting for him to walk in your bedroom and introduce himself then its no wonder you dont believe in him.

What about all the other people that have come before us? 2000 years have supposedly passed before God said do this do that and follow me. What about the millions of people who came before then and did not worship the one true god. The Greeks, the Egyptians. They had many gods. Were they right? Or only this view of God right? Are they doomed?

All these questions, noone can possibly answer. That is why I do not pretend to know. Lava, despite what you have been told, even you don't know. Sorry to break it to you. Not one human being has the answer to these questions. I never said I don't believe. I said it cannot be proven in my eye's either way and that I choose not to pretend to know or to practice ritual worship.

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by portisistheman
What about all the other people that have come before us? 2000 years have supposedly passed before God said do this do that and follow me. What about the millions of people who came before then and did not worship the one true god. The Greeks, the Egyptians. They had many gods. Were they right? Or only this view of God right? Are they doomed?

All these questions, noone can possibly answer. That is why I do not pretend to know. Lava, despite what you have been told, even you don't know. Sorry to break it to you. Not one human being has the answer to these questions. I never said I don't believe. I said it cannot be proven in my eye's either way and that I choose not to pretend to know or to practice ritual worship. i know what i believe may not be THE religion, but at least i chose a side. you cant just sit back and be neutral to all of them because there is so many. how do you choose one? i dont know. it wouldnt hurt but help if you at least pray or something maybe he will send you an answer or something. im just throwing suggestions out here.

[RunByDesign]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
i know what i believe may not be THE religion, but at least i chose a side. you cant just sit back and be neutral to all of them because there is so many. how do you choose one? i dont know. it wouldnt hurt but help if you at least pray or something maybe he will send you an answer or something. im just throwing suggestions out here.

So as long as someone has a religion and prays to something, they will be OK?

[Elway]

Sometimes it doesn't matter what you believe, as long as you believe in something.

[Javalon]

Originally posted by Elway
Sometimes it doesn't matter what you believe, as long as you believe in something.

That's not the typical Christian belief, though. You accept Christ as your savior or go to Hell.

I don't believe that but I'm surprised how many people do.

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by portisistheman
So as long as someone has a religion and prays to something, they will be OK? are you asking questions to learn or are you asking questions to ask questions? you know the answer to that. we been talking about GOD all day and you say "pray to something"?

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by Javalon
That's not the typical Christian belief, though. You accept Christ as your savior or go to Hell.

I don't believe that but I'm surprised how many people do. i dont believe that either. there is no hell GOD would not punish us like that. If you dont go to heaven, you'll just die. thats where we differ from christians and some other religions.

[RunByDesign]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
are you asking questions to learn or are you asking questions to ask questions? you know the answer to that. we been talking about GOD all day and you say "pray to something"?

I am questioning the statements you made, Lava. I have a lifetime worth of knowledge about God and religion and feel I have nothing more to learn. I am wondering if your views are changing before our very eyes. At the start of the discussion you seemed to indicate that we must bow down to the one true God. Recently you have said that if you pray or "something" it would be OK, even among multi-diety religions. I am questioning you, to have a better understanding of you, Lava. Not God. I understand God all that I possibly can, which is unfathomable.

[Elway]

Part of the theology of a vengeful and wrathful God, "Believe or Burn" A very tight doctrine.

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by portisistheman
I am questioning the statements you made, Lava. I have a lifetime worth of knowledge about God and religion and feel I have nothing more to learn. I am wondering if your views are changing before our very eyes. At the start of the discussion you seemed to indicate that we must bow down to the one true God. Recently you have said that if you pray to "something" it would be OK, even among multi-diety religions. I am questioning you, to have a better understanding of you, Lava. Not God. I understand God all that I possibly can, which is unfathomable. whoa i didnt say pray to something. i said pray or something look again. if you want to understand me im a jehovah witness. that means i dont believe in hell, jesus is not most superior but Jehovah GOD is, and i dont celebrate birthday or christmas. ill explain to you why tomorrow.

[Javalon]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
whoa i didnt say pray to something. i said pray or something look again. if you want to understand me im a jehovah witness. that means i dont believe in hell, jesus is not most superior but Jehovah GOD is, and i dont celebrate birthday or christmas. ill explain to you why tomorrow.

You don't need to explain any of that. The topic you started was "Do you believe in God?" not "Let me explain the intricacies of being a Jehovah's witness."

I can tell you right now that you're not going to sway anybody here into thinking we shouldn't celebrate birthdays or Christmas. My Jehovah's witness friend back in Colorado laid it on me and there's no point trying to convince the masses here on this forum.

Well, I'm going to try to stop reading this forum for the night. Although it's hard to look away.

'Night all.

[brnc fan 14]

i believe in God.

i think that the belief in any god is just logical (otherwise how could we be here) but which religion you choose is mostly based on your race, your culture, and what religion you're parents were. unfortunateyl, many people who are religous lose they're faith in god because someone they love dies or something like that. we've all heard this before: "if their is a god, how come such terrible things (or war, or somebody died) happen? how could a god let that happen?"
i am a catholic, and i believe in heaven and hell. when people ask why would god let people suffer in hell, the reason is because he gave us free choice and we made the wrong choice. that is like asking, "why do rapist/murders suffer the death penalty? if they are sorry then we should forgive them!" no, of course not. you had a choice, you knew which was right and which was wrong, and you chose the wrong choice. now you must suffer the consequences.
even though im not very religous, i do not believe in forcing others to believe in my religous beliefs. i think we all have a right to believe what we want, and some of us will be right and some will be wrong. you always have a right to be wrong.

[The-4th-Amigo]

What about all the other people that have come before us? 2000 years have supposedly passed before God said do this do that and follow me. What about the millions of people who came before then and did not worship the one true god. The Greeks, the Egyptians. They had many gods. Were they right? Or only this view of God right? Are they doomed?


Actually God did communicate to his chosen people back then, like Moses. The egyptians did not believe, that's why they had hardships when Pharoah did not let Gods people go.

Hmm, the question "do you believe in God?" is never a clear cut answer. I was raised Catholic and changed faith to follow the Bible only in my mid 20’s. At that time I asked what religion is right? There can only be one, there is not more than one God. I researched a few and came to the conclusion that the God of the Bible is the only true God. The father, the son and the Holy Spirit are one God. I believe Jesus is God and only through him you are saved. He was from the beginning and created everything.
JW’s believe otherwise, so in other words we believe in two different God’s. Who’s right? Only one of us can be right.
I think that I am right due to the fact that the Bible is an amazing book with all the prophecies that came true. I know, what about the contradictions? That’s a different thread. There are none BTW.
I am sure everyone who believes different than I also thinks he/she is right but only ONE can be right. It’s not my job to win a debate but tell you the good news about Jesus Christ!
As for good deeds and being a good person. God sent his son down here on earth to be a sacrifice for our sins. He was brutally beaten. If you choose not to believe that then you are basically spitting in Gods face. If you did that to my son I would have no fellowship with you either, no matter how nice you were.
Jesus resurrection is the only sign we have and it’s our choice to accept the free gift of salvation or deny it.

As for doubts/questions, I have them all the time. I just keep looking forward and realize that the questions will be answered but all I need to know right now is God’s loving grace that I am saved, through faith.

I hope I did not offend anyone because that was not my intention. Just sharing my views and my thoughts on the subject.

[brnc fan 14]

Originally posted by The-4th-Amigo
I was raised Catholic and changed faith to follow the Bible only in my mid 20’s.

actually catholics believe in the bible too.

[orang/blu in LA]

Well, The-4th-Amigo, i respect your decision, and your opinion. I'm curious to what research you did - as my instinct tells me that if you were "raised a catholic" you most likely already had a slant in that direction. If you'd said you were raised Hindu and came to the same conclusion, i might not be writing this. And though your decision is your decision, as i read it, it seems as if you were a bit predisposed to the decision you came to. I'm not trying to be confrontational, i'm just curious. I wonder if a person born in Iraq who'd done research and used the same methodology would've found the same answer...Or if maybe religion is all cultural or semantics.

Look, I disagree with a lot of what has been said. And you know what? i have no way of knowing if i'm right or if i'm wrong, and ultimately i don't care. I know that what i believe in works for me, and it helps me be a better person...but i can't stand by and stay silent as people say that those who don't believe in Jesus or God are going to "hell." My god, the one i believe in, is not judgemental like that. If you believe in that kind of hell, then fine. But i know i'm not going there, nor are all the people i know who are great and loving and/or SPIRITUAL people.

The other thing, is that i don't think you have to believe in Christ to believe in God. In my opinion, God is represented by many different names and manifestations, whether you call him God, Buddha, Allah or what have you; in my opinion, we're all referring to a Higher Power...call it what you will. And though i believe in God very strongly, and always have - and have (in my opinion) been saved many times through my faith - i believe that Christ is only a prophet. One of many. I don't think that that makes my faith in God any less.

[The-4th-Amigo]

Originally posted by brnc fan 14
actually catholics believe in the bible too.

Yes, but they have added books to their version and Catholics also use other books than the Bible. I only use the Bible. a huge difference in my book.

[The-4th-Amigo]

as my instinct tells me that if you were "raised a catholic" you most likely already had a slant in that direction

Smart girl! not being sarcastic, Yeah that is an accurate statement.

I'm curious to what research you did

I Looked at what Mormons, JW’s, Catholics, and couple of other religions believe and I thought, oh man, there are a lot to choose from. Okay who’s right, who’s wrong and who’s just out there? So, with the info I found on the Bible about prophecies and how it came about, I chose Christianity.
So you are correct it was not a lifetime researching and with me being raised Catholic I had my biased opinion on the matter.


I know that what i believe in works for me, and it helps me be a better person...but i can't stand by and stay silent as people say that those who don't believe in Jesus or God are going to "hell." My god, the one i believe in, is not judgemental like that. If you believe in that kind of hell, then fine. But i know i'm not going there, nor are all the people i know who are great and loving and SPIRITUAL people

I used to think the same, although I was raised Catholic I never knew what it meant to be religious, so to speak. Church was something I did to feel better about myself until I learned otherwise. I thought the same thing, I am good person and only people like Hitler and Stalin are going to Hell.
If you don’t believe the Bible which you have every right not to then what I say is foreign to you. I used to laugh at people when they would try and witness to me, I would think, get lost loser and get with the program.

The other thing, is that i don't think you have to believe in Christ to believe in God. In my opinion, God is represented by many different names and manifestations, whether you call him God, Buddha, Allah or what have you; in my opinion, we're all referring to a Higher Power...call it what you will. And though i believe in God very strongly, and always have - and have (in my opinion) been saved many times through my faith - i believe that Christ is only a prophet. One of many. I don't think that that makes my faith in God any less.

I think there is a huge difference between Jesus and a higher power. Yes, your faith in god is not inferior but I have put my faith in Jesus and I believe he proved he is God and not just a prophet.
This is America and we can believe whatever we want. Obviously we disagree which would not be the first time. Only one of us can be right, Jesus, Gods only begotten son or a god “represented by many different names and manifestations, whether you call him God, Buddha, Allah or what have you”

I can’t say or show you anything that is going to make you say “you are right, Jesus is God” that you haven’t heard already and same goes for me. We both have our faith to hold on to and I hope everyone is or will be saved at some point in time.

Please don’t take my post the wrong way and think I am saying that I am better than everyone.

On a positive note. We can agree on one thing though, that one of us is wrong with our beliefs. Well maybe two, Broncos are bad! (bad=good)

[rascal]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
and while we are talking about this, do we have any devil worshipers here? i would hate to find that one of you were cause if it was up to me, i'd kill all of them right now!

Oh, that is defintely a Christian attitude. I'm sure you just gave devil worshippers, and others, a reason to stay away.

[rascal]

Originally posted by portisistheman
So is this a common view among Jehova Witnesses? Or does your religous opinions have another contibuting view?

I am Church of Christ and I do not agree with JW. I find many of their teachings to be flawed, but I won't go into that. I believe that there are: believers of God, those who deny God, and those who don't know God.

[orang/blu in LA]

Originally posted by The-4th-Amigo
I think there is a huge difference between Jesus and a higher power. Yes, your faith in god is not inferior but I have put my faith in Jesus and I believe he proved he is God and not just a prophet.....
I can’t say or show you anything that is going to make you say “you are right, Jesus is God” that you haven’t heard already and same goes for me. ....
On a positive note. We can agree on one thing though, that one of us is wrong with our beliefs. Well maybe two, Broncos are bad! (bad=good)

Thank you for your response! :) i tried to quote just a few of the things you said, though i really enjoyed your entire reply. I have absolute respect for anyone and their beliefs, and i did not take your post the wrong way. Though i have seen people make huge shifts in their beliefs, I believe that everyone is slanted (to a certain degree) when they seek to find a religion or a belief, and i of course fall into that category as well. I went to Catholic school all my life - but when i had a choice in what i was studying, even in college, i always chose to study other religions. I'm sure my upbringing had a lot to do with that (if you read my original post, you'll see how different my parents were with their beliefs).... so my own belief system is a mixture of many.

At any rate, I usually don't even get into it as much as i have in this thread, b/c you're right, we will most likely not change each other's minds (nor would i want to, i like the fact that people are so different - and as long as i'm not spoken to condescendingly, i'm cool with anything). For some reason i've just felt chatty about this topic. :)

[rascal]

Originally posted by Javalon
This football comparison is silly. Christianity = Denver Broncos. Jesus Christ = John Elway. God = Pat Bowlen. Satan = Al Davis. Heaven = the Super Bowl. Sinning = Holding call.

Well, I hope we have the second coming of Elway real soon so we can get back to the Super Bowl.

Football is a horrible comparison to religion.

I think it is stupid also.

[rascal]

Originally posted by Javalon
I never said I didn't believe in God. I do. You just assume I don't because I question things.

Okay, we'll here's another question: If God created us, He obviously instilled us with curiousity so why would he mind us questioning our religion?

Before you try to answer that let me say that it's a rhetorical question. I don't expect you to have the answers to my questions; you're not God, after all. :) But I see absolutely no reason why I or anybody else should NOT question what human beings have written down in a book called the Bible and expect us to base our lives on its teachings.

I completely agree with you on this and disagree with Lava. We as human beings are curious, that is what science is all about, and how can we not be curious about religious issues as well. I find it amazing that people expect others to believe just on blind faith. That faith is often weak and temporary.

[rascal]

Originally posted by Javalon
That's not the typical Christian belief, though. You accept Christ as your savior or go to Hell.

I don't believe that but I'm surprised how many people do.

Then what do you believe? I'm not familiar with Baptist doctrine, but is it not that you need repentence, baptism, etc. to receive grace in order to be saved?

[orang/blu in LA]

I could be wrong - i'll let Javalon speak for himself when he reads this - but i think he said he was "raised" Baptist, but that now he doesn't necessarily believe in a lot of what the church says.

[rascal]

Originally posted by orang/blu in LA
i believe that Christ is only a prophet. One of many.

I am curious as to why you think that (Christ only being a prophet)? Apparently you aknowledge his existance, if not then I refer you to Josephus, a Roman historian, the Koran aknowledges him, and of course the Bible. You also say that is he a prophet, which means that you accept that he had divine inspiration and was inspired by God.

This is going to be long so forgive me.

Nobody seriously disputes that a man named Jesus of Nazareth actually existed. There is more written about Jesus than any other individual or event in the history of mankind. If Jesus did not exist then how can we say that Julius Caesar, Napoleon, Benjamin Franklin, George Washington or anybody else for that matter ever really existed. He is mentioned by Roman Historians Suetonius in AD 49 in Cladius, 25,4, and by Tacitus AD 115-117 in Annals, XV,44, and by the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus in the first century AD in Josephus Antiquities, XX,200. Roman historians had absolutely nothing to gain from mentioning him in their records and neither did Josephus who was a Jew.

The dispute is in whether he actually resurrected, thus proving that he was the Messiah, the Son of God.

Atheist will say that he was just a good man. Other religious groups will claim that he was just another prophet. During his ministry, Jesus performed many miracles, from healing the sick and the blind, to raising Lazarus from the dead. But miracles are not sufficient to prove that you are indeed the long awaited Messiah, many Old Testament prophets also performed great miracles such as Moses and Elijah. Performing miracles does not prove that you are the Messiah, but defeating death does. No prophet, religious leader, or any other person in history has ever predicted that he would come back from the dead, and then actually returned form the dead. None except Jesus. Let’s take a look at the groups of people involved.

In Jerusalem after Jesus’ death, there were three main groups that were interested in his body. They were the Sanhedrin, which were the Jewish political and religious government of Judea, the Romans, and Jesus’ disciples.

The main argument against the resurrection is that the disciples took Jesus’ body from the tomb. This argument is very weak to say the least. Let us review the facts.

The Bible states in Matthew 28:2-15 that the guards at the tomb felt an earthquake and saw an angel of the Lord roll back the stone. It says his appearance was like lightning and his clothes were white as snow. The guards were so afraid, they shook and became like dead men (maybe paralyzed with fear). It then states that afterwards some of the guards went into the city and reported what had happened to the chief Jewish priests. When the priests had devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money and told them to say that Jesus’ disciples came in the night while they were sleeping and stole the body. Also in return, the chief priests would talk to the Governor and keep the guards out of trouble. Remember that this is exactly what the Pharisees were trying to prevent by having guards placed at the tomb.

This argument is logically flawed from every direction. If the disciples had indeed decided to take Jesus’ body for whatever irrational reason, how could they have gotten past the Roman guards. They would have had to wait until ALL the guards had fallen asleep, which because of their training and procedure for standing watch at night makes this option almost impossible. Let us suppose for arguments sake that all the guards somehow did fall asleep, I would then have to believe that the disciples quietly stepped past the guards, and moved a two ton stone (estimated by scientist and engineers as approximate weight of the sone) without the guards waking up. This possibility is almost laughable!

A final contradiction to this argument is that if we use the excuse that all the guards did fall asleep, then how do the guards know that it was the disciples that took the body. It would stand to reason that if one of the guards had awakened and seen the disciples, he would have sounded the alarm and awakened the rest of the soldiers. You can’t have it both ways.

It would have been a much better argument if the guards had been found dead. Then one could argue that the disciples had killed the guards and taken the body. But that is not what happened, all the guards were perfectly alive.

And what about the Governors seal? Do you honestly think that a group of ordinary men would risk death at the hands of the guards, or worse, by upside-down crucifixion for breaking the Governor’s seal for the sole purpose of stealing his body? For what purpose? To create a hoax?

So basically, if you do not believe that Jesus resurrected, you are left with the choice that sixteen Roman Custodian Guards placed personally by the Governor under a penalty of death for failure to carry out their duty, all fell asleep, and did not wake up as the Apostles moved a two ton stone, or did wake up to see them, but did nothing to stop them. I personally find these options extremely hard to believe.

But there is still one more piece of evidence that is even more convincing then what has already been presented. This is the Apostles themselves. Not in what they said or wrote, but in what they did.

The Bible tells us that in a period of forty days, Jesus appeared to his apostles together and individually nine times. The lives of the Apostles has been documented by Roman and Christian historians. Nobody disputes their evangelistic journeys. You can still go to Rome and see where Paul was imprisoned and later beheaded.

The proof of the resurrection is in the lives of the Apostles. It is in how they lived and in how they were treated. I use to ask myself, "Why didn’t God help the Apostles during their journeys?" They went through such hardships. All of them were beaten, tortured, imprisoned, and all except John were brutally killed.

Paul was whipped at least five times, beaten countless times (2 Corinthians 11:23), imprisoned at least twice for years (2 Corinthians 6:4), left for dead after being stoned (Acts 14:19), and finally beheaded during the persecution under Emperor Nero.

Peter was also martyred during Nero’s persecution. He was crucified upside down at his request, because they were going to crucify him the same way as Jesus, and he did not feel he was worthy to die in the same manner as his Lord.

Andrew went to the "land of the man eaters," in what was formally known as the Soviet Union. Christians claim him as the first to bring the gospel to their land. He also preached in modern-day Turkey, and in Greece, where he is said to have been crucified.

Thomas was most active in the area east of Syria. Tradition has him preaching as far east as India where the ancient Marthoma Christians revere him as their founder. They claim that he died there when he was pierced through with the spears of four soldiers.

Philip had a powerful ministry in Carthage in North Africa and then in Asia Minor, where he converted the wife of a Roman proconsul. In retaliation the proconsul had Philip arrested and cruelly put to death.

Matthew the tax collector and writer of a gospel, ministered in Persia and Ethiopia. Reports say that he was stabbed to death in Ethiopia.

Bartholomew had widespread missionary travels attributed to him by tradition: to India with Thomas, back to Armenia, and also to Ethiopia and Southern Arabia. There are various accounts of how he met his death as a martyr for the gospel.

James the son of Alpheus is one of at least three Jameses referred to in the New Testament. There is some confusion as to which, but this James is reckoned to have ministered in Syria. The Jewish historian Josephus reported that he was stoned and then clubbed to death.

Simon the Zealot, ministered in Persia and was killed after refusing to sacrifice to the sun god.

Matthias was the apostle chosen to replace Judas. Tradition sends him to Syria with Andrew and to death by burning

It stands to reason that if the Apostles had stolen Jesus’ body from the tomb, then they would surely have known that he had not resurrected. Why then would they go through years of incredible hardship for? Because they enjoyed getting a beating or being imprisoned? Do you think they would have done it for a lie? Would you (as Paul did) be ostracized by everyone you know and love, and then go into towns for about thirty years, getting whipped, tortured, stoned, and imprisoned every time you preached the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ if you knew it was a lie?

Would you, like Peter watch your wife be killed and then request to be crucified upside-down because you did not feel worthy to die in the same manner as Jesus, if you knew that he had not really resurrected and thus was not truly the Messiah? Of course not!

I cannot think of any reason why these men did what they did unless what they claim is true, that Jesus Christ after his death appeared to them.

[Broncofan-13]

Okay, one question...

honestly, whenever I see jesus depicted, he is pasty white. does anyone else find that strange?

[rascal]

Originally posted by Broncofan-13
Okay, one question...

honestly, whenever I see jesus depicted, he is pasty white. does anyone else find that strange?

They also depict him as being weak and skinny. He was a carpenters son, and trust me that requires some strength especially with their manual tools that they used. Plus he carried his cross, two rail road ties basically, across the city before needing help at the very end. That was after he had been beaten and whipped. To endure that and still carry the cross I don't think he could have been weak. I also don't think he was pasty white. The guy was outdoors all the time, so he would have been tanned!!!!

[rascal]

Originally posted by orang/blu in LA
I could be wrong - i'll let Javalon speak for himself when he reads this - but i think he said he was "raised" Baptist, but that now he doesn't necessarily believe in a lot of what the church says.

Then I am still curious as to what he believes. I am not sure myself what I think about this so I am curious as to other people's opinion. Besides I think the more exposure you have to other opinions, and yet I still believe in certain things, that only gives me more confidence in my faith (assuming that my opinion is correct after the discussion). Many people within Christianity feel that it is their way or the high way. For example, some of my fellow church goers believe that only Church of Christ followers will go into heaven, everyone else is condemned to hell. I have a serious problem with that. I have an inclination to think that if someone follows the basic teachings of the Bible, there will always be disagreements on certain doctrine principles, and lives their life according to that (because no one is perfect) then God's grace will save them.

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by Javalon
You don't need to explain any of that. The topic you started was "Do you believe in God?" not "Let me explain the intricacies of being a Jehovah's witness."

I can tell you right now that you're not going to sway anybody here into thinking we shouldn't celebrate birthdays or Christmas. My Jehovah's witness friend back in Colorado laid it on me and there's no point trying to convince the masses here on this forum.

Well, I'm going to try to stop reading this forum for the night. Although it's hard to look away.

'Night all. i was only answering a question i was not tryin to change the subject. if i sat down with somebody who really DID, want to turn over their life to GOD, then i would definitely be able to "sway" them.

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by The-4th-Amigo
The father, the son and the Holy Spirit are one God. I believe Jesus is God and only through him you are saved. He was from the beginning and created everything.
JW’s believe otherwise, so in other words we believe in two different God’s. I just wanted to ask this question to get your view: to Christians, GOD, Jesus, and holy spirit are one, so when Jesus dies on the stake, does that mean GOD died also, JW believe that Jesus is the mighty son and Jehovah is the all-mighty father, two separate figures. Its not neccessarily two different GOD between our beliefs its that we interpret the bible different, in the christian bible, the trinity is believed true, and in JW, its believed false. In my bible, Jesus says, "I am the son" which means to us that he is beneath Jehovah, but in the Christian bible, Jesus says "I am the son" but its believed that Jesus is still equal and a part of GOD.

[rascal]

I have not ignored your response to mine, I am just working on a response to answer all of your questions. I answered, at length (sorry), to the question about Jesus because I had written a document addressing that question earlier so it was easy to tailor that document to that response. But please remember, many of the things that I said initially I do not believe in, I only stated them to start a conversation similar to the role you played in your response to mine.

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by rascal
I completely agree with you on this and disagree with Lava. We as human beings are curious, that is what science is all about, and how can we not be curious about religious issues as well. I find it amazing that people expect others to believe just on blind faith. That faith is often weak and temporary. There is no reason to have faith if you are going to question everything. Thats what faith is. Every answer you need is in the bible, there should be no more questions after you read it.

[rascal]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
I just wanted to ask this question to get your view: to Christians, GOD, Jesus, and holy spirit are one, so when Jesus dies on the stake, does that mean GOD died also

His physical form died, not his actual being. Apparently you are familiar with the Bible, so....

Philippians 2:5-8 gives some very important Scriptural testimony about Jesus Christ and His nature.

Philippians 2:6,

"who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, "
shows us the nature of Jesus. In the first part of the verse, "who, being in the form of God,", the word 'form' is translated from the Greek word 'morphe', which means 'form, or nature.' The words 'the' and 'of', which bracket 'form' are not contained in the original manuscripts, in fact there were no such words in the ancient Greek. These two words were added by the translators of the manuscript. Without man's interference, the reading of this part of the verse is, "who being in nature God". This rendering is more in line with Scriptural context and teaching; and does not allow for any misunderstanding of Jesus' nature. The remainder of the verse merely states, that since His nature is God, He is equal with God.

Verses 7& 8, list the examples we are to follow,

"but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Himself the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.
And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
We see that Jesus in nature God and equal with God, abased Himself by becoming an obedient, humble, servant. And that He took on the external nature of man. It was the Son of God, Jesus, of His own free choice, who (although equal to) willingly became subservient to the Father. This in no way affected the nature of either the Father or the Son. This is why in Hebrews 1:9, the statement can be made, "Therefore God, your God-". The meaning is not that Jesus is a lesser God, for we know,
"You are My witnesses, says Jehovah, and My servant whom I have chosen; that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me no God was formed, nor shall there be after Me." (Isa 43:10)

The meaning is clearly that the Son, Jesus Christ, has chosen to allow the Father to have authority over Him.

[rascal]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
There is no reason to have faith if you are going to question everything. Thats what faith is. Every answer you need is in the bible, there should be no more questions after you read it.

It is statements like this, that make Christianity appear to be a cold, if not selfish, religion. I have faith in God and that his Son is Jesus Christ and that the Bible is his inspired word. I still have questions regarding doctrine (predestination and many other things) but that does not mean I don't have faith. The Bible does not answer every question that I, or anyone else, could come up with.

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by rascal
I am Church of Christ and I do not agree with JW. I find many of their teachings to be flawed, but I won't go into that. I believe that there are: believers of God, those who deny God, and those who don't know God. i'd like to know whats flawed about JW

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by rascal
It is statements like this, that make Christianity appear to be a cold, if not selfish, religion. I have faith in God and that his Son is Jesus Christ and that the Bible is his inspired word. I still have questions regarding doctrine (predestination and many other things) but that does not mean I don't have faith. The Bible does not answer every question that I, or anyone else, could come up with. you're right. the bible wont answer every question you COULD come up with. im not trying to make christianity sound cold cause im not even a christian. There are a lot of answers in the bible, the ones that you need.

[rascal]

I don't know enough about it to make an intelligent discussion; I just know I don't agree with it. I am working on responding to Javalon. I find his comments and questions to be very interesting and I feel the need to respond to him at the present moment.

[orangenblue420]

OK, here I go...........

First, I must disagree with some of what Lava says and it is because he is JW. If there isnt a hell cause God wouldnt be that mean, what is the punishment for not believing in God and saving your soul? Are you just taking parts of the Bible that make you feel good and thats what you choose to believe, the bad stuff just isnt true cause God wouldnt do that? My theory is this......God created us in his IMAGE.........which means we are like Him, He is like us. Therefore, God gets angry, upset, happy, sad etc........Old Testament is the perfect example. If you believe the Bible you must believe the whole thing or nothing, you cant just take parts of it, cause how do you determine which parts are true and not?

When God created Jesus He created a perfect human being, but human is the key. God was trying to show us that as humans we can be good and free of sin if we choose. And had it not been for Jesus to intervene (He is our Intercessor) than I believe God would have destroyed us a long time ago.

But I also have a problem with the Christian religion stating you must be born again and receive Jesus as your personal savior before you can go to heaven. So people who never get the chance to know about Jesus, i.e. people in so many other nations, children who never got a chance to grow up, etc, etc, go to hell just cause they werent saved, even though they never had the oppurtunity to choose?

I dont believe in any organized religion.......I call myself a Christian (though a non practicing one) because the true definition of Christian is "Christ Like" It boils down to WWJD......I dont need ceremony, beads, pews, sermons and choirs to be a good Christian. I need to be like Jesus. Free from sin, filled with love for and of God. Unfortunately, I have choosen to "have fun" and not follow these ways, at this particular stage in my life, knowing full well if I was to die right now I would have to answer for my sins, but also knowing that according to the Bible I am going to Heaven because I have accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour.

Lava------your comment on wanting to kill all devil worshippers is ABSURD...............Your "job" is to try and save souls not kill them, if you killed them they would be doomed to a life of eternal suffering, you are supposed to try and convince them of the right path, not kill them for what they believe. When Jesus was on the cross, all He had to say was Father, get me out of this......but instead He asked God to forgive those who were crucifing him......you really need to rethink that statement.

But I am still skeptical on so many things. A part of me feels Hell is here on Earth.......for the most part we a miserable creatures, never satisfied, always searching for something bigger and better.
I have been a true "follower" before, going to church sundays, wednesdays, all the "meetings", got rid of all the wordly music, didnt watch "bad" things on TV, quit smoking (MJ, never smoked cigs), quit drinking, quit swearing, etc etc etc.......I wasnt any happier or more fulfilled during that time of my life than I am now. Not to mention I see soooo many people who are doing the same thing (following) and are still miserable...............I live around so many charasmatic Christians you cant even imagine. This is Tulsa Oklahoma, take a look to see how many Full Faith Chruches are out here. I work down the street from Oral Roberts University, I live down the street from Rhema Bible Church, etc, etc, if you look at the televangilists today I guarantee all of them have some connection to one of the big churches in this town..........And to be honest its what has turned me against organized religion to begin with. I see the money they rake in, i see teh way they treat people when no one is watching, i see alot, but I also know that they will have to answer for what they have done. I guess my point here is it's what you feel in your heart that matters. It's what you believe. Maybe you dont believe in a God, or in Jesus or any religion, but I truly beleive that if you were to go your whole life and live it the way Jesus did, w/o harming another living creature, w/o selfishness etc, etc, you too will be rewarded.

[LawDog]

Originally posted by rascal
Joseph Smith. I won't be responding to any future comments about JW. I don't know enough about it to make an intelligent discussion; I just know I don't agree with it. I am working on responding to Javalon. I find his comments and questions to be very interesting and I feel the need to respond to him at the present moment. And like Javalon, I have had many discussions with JW so you aren't going to convince me of anything.

If this is in response to the question "what's flawed with JW," I believe that Joseph Smith was the founder of Mormanism.

[orang/blu in LA]

Rascal - sorry, i'm trying to find time to read everything right now - didn't want you to think i was ignoring you... this whole job thing really interferes with my writing on this board! :)

[RealBronco]

Hmmm...it is going to be quite difficult for me not to comment on any of this. But, I must just answer the initial question that Lava posed and not try to get into this right now because I could spend hours on this topic.

To answer the initial question: Yes, I believe In God. Not just any god or idol. I believe in the ONLY God. Jesus Christ. The Way, the Truth and the Life.

[LawDog]

As I expected, this thread is very interesting...

I was also "raised" Baptist, and attended an ultra-conservative, non-denominational, Christian high school. Shortly after, I began to develop my faith on my own. Yes slanted toward Christianity, but trying to find answers to my questions from my perspective as opposed to someone else's. My main issue with religion is not that it is in itself flawed, but that like everything else in society it evolves. God does not change. His plan for creation is His alone and is for eternity. We as humans have no way to conceive of God in a way that is tangible. So you have faith, and that is the one thing that makes sense to me. God wants us to believe in Him and fellowship with Him. If there were concrete experiences that we could follow, then faith is useless. If your Dad asks you to do something and you know from past experience that he will be dissappointed if you don't do it, or that you will be punished, you will not truly be making a free choice. We cannot prove the existence of God, heaven or hell in a theoretical sense. The majesty of nature gives us a sense of a higher power but that alone gives us no direction on what our relationship with God should be. And so you have faith.

Many pages ago the Big Bang theory was mentioned. I've always been amused that people try to use this to disprove the existence of God. The Bible teaches in Genesis that the earth and the heavens were created in a week. We imagine that one second there was nothing, and the next there was something. If nature indicates that the universe is expanding, fine, God could have created a ball of mass and then caused it to expand leaving our world as we know it in place along the way. Who knows? I am certainly not willing to force God to only operate in terms that I can understand. We understand time - the sun rises and sets, the seasons go by, etc. So we conceive of the creation occuring in a small amount of time as we know it. Could be that God created the universe over thousands or millions of years. Does it matter? If a creature adapts to a change in his environment does that disprove God? No. Don't worry, I'm not going down the road to Darwin here, just pointing out that a snap shot does not explain the whole museum. Enjoy creation, and accept that you can't understand everything.

Religion(s) are man-made. To say that one man's religion is the only "right" path is ridiculous. I believe that every person has a sense of what God is - in your soul. How we interpret that sense and act on it is our faith. Personally, I choose to believe that God exists, that we were created in His image (although He is not like us as someone posted above) and as part of free will we sin. I also believe that God is merciful and has provided sacrifice and atonement for our sins so that we may truly experience His glory and fellowship. All ya gotta do is ask.

BTW, I now attend Catholic church with my wife. She was raised Catholic and at this point in her life, it makes the most sense for her. The extraneous stuff like the near deification of Mary, etc., definitely gives me fits, but I am content to fellowship there.

[rascal]

Originally posted by LawDog
If this is in response to the question "what's flawed with JW," I believe that Joseph Smith was the founder of Mormanism.

I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that but yes you are correct. I've gone back and changed it so as to not receive future comments on it...hopefully.

[Javalon]

I'm going to move this to a new thread...

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by orangenblue420
OK, here I go...........

First, I must disagree with some of what Lava says and it is because he is JW. If there isnt a hell cause God wouldnt be that mean, what is the punishment for not believing in God and saving your soul? Are you just taking parts of the Bible that make you feel good and thats what you choose to believe, the bad stuff just isnt true cause God wouldnt do that? My theory is this......God created us in his IMAGE.........which means we are like Him, He is like us. Therefore, God gets angry, upset, happy, sad etc........Old Testament is the perfect example. If you believe the Bible you must believe the whole thing or nothing, you cant just take parts of it, cause how do you determine which parts are true and not?

When God created Jesus He created a perfect human being, but human is the key. God was trying to show us that as humans we can be good and free of sin if we choose. And had it not been for Jesus to intervene (He is our Intercessor) than I believe God would have destroyed us a long time ago.

But I also have a problem with the Christian religion stating you must be born again and receive Jesus as your personal savior before you can go to heaven. So people who never get the chance to know about Jesus, i.e. people in so many other nations, children who never got a chance to grow up, etc, etc, go to hell just cause they werent saved, even though they never had the oppurtunity to choose?

I dont believe in any organized religion.......I call myself a Christian (though a non practicing one) because the true definition of Christian is "Christ Like" It boils down to WWJD......I dont need ceremony, beads, pews, sermons and choirs to be a good Christian. I need to be like Jesus. Free from sin, filled with love for and of God. Unfortunately, I have choosen to "have fun" and not follow these ways, at this particular stage in my life, knowing full well if I was to die right now I would have to answer for my sins, but also knowing that according to the Bible I am going to Heaven because I have accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour.

Lava------your comment on wanting to kill all devil worshippers is ABSURD...............Your "job" is to try and save souls not kill them, if you killed them they would be doomed to a life of eternal suffering, you are supposed to try and convince them of the right path, not kill them for what they believe. When Jesus was on the cross, all He had to say was Father, get me out of this......but instead He asked God to forgive those who were crucifing him......you really need to rethink that statement.

But I am still skeptical on so many things. A part of me feels Hell is here on Earth.......for the most part we a miserable creatures, never satisfied, always searching for something bigger and better.
I have been a true "follower" before, going to church sundays, wednesdays, all the "meetings", got rid of all the wordly music, didnt watch "bad" things on TV, quit smoking (MJ, never smoked cigs), quit drinking, quit swearing, etc etc etc.......I wasnt any happier or more fulfilled during that time of my life than I am now. Not to mention I see soooo many people who are doing the same thing (following) and are still miserable...............I live around so many charasmatic Christians you cant even imagine. This is Tulsa Oklahoma, take a look to see how many Full Faith Chruches are out here. I work down the street from Oral Roberts University, I live down the street from Rhema Bible Church, etc, etc, if you look at the televangilists today I guarantee all of them have some connection to one of the big churches in this town..........And to be honest its what has turned me against organized religion to begin with. I see the money they rake in, i see teh way they treat people when no one is watching, i see alot, but I also know that they will have to answer for what they have done. I guess my point here is it's what you feel in your heart that matters. It's what you believe. Maybe you dont believe in a God, or in Jesus or any religion, but I truly beleive that if you were to go your whole life and live it the way Jesus did, w/o harming another living creature, w/o selfishness etc, etc, you too will be rewarded. First of all, I am not taking what i want from the bible and leaving the rest. you must understand that your bible has different content than my bible. GOD will NEVER punish you. He did not create you for that. It states that GOD gave your soul and GOD recieves it when you die. The dead have no conciousness or feeling. No part of you is lived in another realm or state. It returns to the true GOD who gave it. Being so, hell exists but it is not the hellfire you are familiar with, rather, its just the notion of ceasing to exist when not brought back to live on paradise. Thats in the bible. Speaking of the Bible, where in the world does it say Jesus was born December 25? that has never been read in ANY bible. Im sure you all celebrate Christmas and not because you are giving thanks to Jesus, but rather to recieve your gifts and candy. It has become such a distraction even if that WAS his birthday, where does all the presents and Santa Clause, and elfs, and all that nonsense fit in? I know you all are probably too far into it to give it up but i just want you to know that Jehovah frowns on that. On to my post about devil worshipers. My comment was NOT absurd for 3 reasons:

1) Devil worshipers are trying to form themselves with the devil. They worship him and want to follow in his footsteps. GOD is going to destroy the Devil sooner or later and my comment was that i feel the same way only i wouldnt wait.

2)My opinion is what it is. I also feel the same way about serial killers that have no remorse, rapist, and all other criminals. The world is definitely a better place without them.

3)I said "if it was up to me" and of course, its not.

[The-4th-Amigo]

some of my fellow church goers believe that only Church of Christ followers will go into heaven, everyone else is condemned to hell. I have a serious problem with that. I have an inclination to think that if someone follows the basic teachings of the Bible, there will always be disagreements on certain doctrine principles, and lives their life according to that (because no one is perfect) then God's grace will save them.

Hmm, You are wise beyond your years, ya little Rascal, LOL. I agree Jesus is the only way now matter what you decide to call your religion. There is no one TRUE church but there is only one way, Jesus!

I just wanted to ask this question to get your view: to Christians, GOD, Jesus, and holy spirit are one, so when Jesus dies on the stake, does that mean GOD died also, JW believe that Jesus is the mighty son and Jehovah is the all-mighty father, two separate figures. Its not neccessarily two different GOD between our beliefs its that we interpret the bible different, in the christian bible, the trinity is believed true, and in JW, its believed false. In my bible, Jesus says, "I am the son" which means to us that he is beneath Jehovah, but in the Christian bible, Jesus says "I am the son" but its believed that Jesus is still equal and a part of GOD.

No, God did not die in that sense, he over came death and sin so that through Jesus Christ we can have eternal life. To be honest my pea brain can’t answer how God is three distinct divine persons. The reason why I believe Jesus is God is because of what he said. “I am” Here is a link: Is Jesus God? (http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t005.html)

[The-4th-Amigo]

But I also have a problem with the Christian religion stating you must be born again and receive Jesus as your personal savior before you can go to heaven. So people who never get the chance to know about Jesus, i.e. people in so many other nations, children who never got a chance to grow up, etc, etc, go to hell just cause they werent saved, even though they never had the oppurtunity to choose?

I do not believe babies or young kids go to hell if they die before accepting Christ. God is a loving God and I would think there is an age of accountability. I wonder the same thing, “what about the people who never heard of Jesus and are adults” I think they could be saved the same way people were saved in the old testament before Christ died. However, I have no problem with accepting that not all questions can be answered at this time.

To answer the initial question: Yes, I believe In God. Not just any god or idol. I believe in the ONLY God. Jesus Christ. The Way, the Truth and the Life.

AMEN! Brother!

Religion(s) are man-made. To say that one man's religion is the only "right" path is ridiculous. I believe that every person has a sense of what God is - in your soul. How we interpret that sense and act on it is our faith. Personally, I choose to believe that God exists, that we were created in His image (although He is not like us as someone posted above) and as part of free will we sin.

I agree religions are man made and that is why I decided to follow “Jesus Christ. The Way, the Truth and the Life.” He is the only person that defeated death and I choose to follow him!

I also believe that God is merciful and has provided sacrifice and atonement for our sins so that we may truly experience His glory and fellowship. All ya gotta do is ask

But how do does God provide this? Is the question.

Also, I just wanted to say that this is a good thread and I am happy that I have only seen one or two posts that were offensive. Usually, you mention God and people are at each other throats in no time. Shows that the fans of the broncos are a class act!

[RunByDesign]

This response is to anyone.

OK, so I tried the link. I read the first paragraph and I reject the notion that Christianity will fall apart if Jesus never existed. No one can prove he exists now. This is the problem with reiligion. Men create these beliefs and men of other but similarly based beliefs pick them apart to replace them with something better of their own ideas to gain reverance and power. The IDEALS that are Christianity is what should and basically has endured.

Whether or not it is true or not is irrelevant. I have watched people of different faiths trade ideas and opinions and what I have seen is that all of these ideas come from the same pile of stories and yet you all say yourselves that because the stories differ, the other is somehow doomed or wrong because this says this and this says that. These are the flaws created from the reasoning of men.

Judaism, Christianity, Jehova Witness, whatever are not that different. It is the people saying you do not believe exactly what my storybook says, so you are doomed. It is rediculous. It could be compared to 10 different manuals of how to build a house and ALL would work, but the contractors won't work with each other because it was not the way they were taught.

All these religions are trying to achieve the same thing. Leaders confuse and train followers to believe there is no recourse when it comes to following the rules of said religion.

Petty, childish and narrowminded.

It is time we all come together and leave religion behind. Realize we are people cut from the same cloth. Our survival depends on each other. We are not so different. We do not have the answers. God may be waiting there. There may be nothing. We do not know. If you think you do know, then you are brainwashed. (no offense)

Truth.

So saith portisistheman.

[Return of Lava]

I see there are still a lot of questions being asked. My question is this. What are you really trying to learn? You say you already know what you are going to know and nothing else can be learned. I want to refer back to the football comparison for those who didnt understand before. GOD and his "followers" are like a coach and his players. Pay attention. The bible can be the playbook and the devil can be the opposing team(before you try to come up with crazy ideas like "who is gonna play Jesus or the different religions", just try to view it like this first). Players need a coach to guide them in the direction to win the game. Players dont question his authority and they dont doubt his decisions. The coach gave the players a playbook to be learned and applied on the field. The opposing team is there to stop and disrupt and all these bad things. You listening? Without the coach, the players would not be abe to handle all the decisions and would never work as a function to get the win. This is just a comparison to the faith between GOD and followers the point is, if you do believe, and you have the faith in Him, then you wouldnt be asking so many questions.

[rascal]

Originally posted by portisistheman
No one can prove he exists now.

I posted earlier "Nobody seriously disputes that a man named Jesus of Nazareth actually existed. There is more written about Jesus than any other individual or event in the history of mankind. If Jesus did not exist then how can we say that Julius Caesar, Napoleon, Benjamin Franklin, George Washington or anybody else for that matter ever really existed. He is mentioned by Roman Historians Suetonius in AD 49 in Cladius, 25,4, and by Tacitus AD 115-117 in Annals, XV,44, and by the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus in the first century AD in Josephus Antiquities, XX,200. Roman historians had absolutely nothing to gain from mentioning him in their records and neither did Josephus who was a Jew.

The dispute is in whether he actually resurrected, thus proving that he was the Messiah, the Son of God."

If you doubt that Jesus existed I suggest you look up the references I mentioned above. There lies the proof of his existance. Not even true athiests reject the notion that Jesus existed.

[orangenblue420]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
First of all, I am not taking what i want from the bible and leaving the rest. you must understand that your bible has different content than my bible. GOD will NEVER punish you. He did not create you for that. It states that GOD gave your soul and GOD recieves it when you die. The dead have no conciousness or feeling. No part of you is lived in another realm or state. It returns to the true GOD who gave it. Being so, hell exists but it is not the hellfire you are familiar with, rather, its just the notion of ceasing to exist when not brought back to live on paradise. Thats in the bible. Speaking of the Bible, where in the world does it say Jesus was born December 25? that has never been read in ANY bible. Im sure you all celebrate Christmas and not because you are giving thanks to Jesus, but rather to recieve your gifts and candy. It has become such a distraction even if that WAS his birthday, where does all the presents and Santa Clause, and elfs, and all that nonsense fit in? I know you all are probably too far into it to give it up but i just want you to know that Jehovah frowns on that. On to my post about devil worshipers. My comment was NOT absurd for 3 reasons:

1) Devil worshipers are trying to form themselves with the devil. They worship him and want to follow in his footsteps. GOD is going to destroy the Devil sooner or later and my comment was that i feel the same way only i wouldnt wait.

2)My opinion is what it is. I also feel the same way about serial killers that have no remorse, rapist, and all other criminals. The world is definitely a better place without them.

3)I said "if it was up to me" and of course, its not.

1. I hate what Christmas and holidays in general have become. I like them because I get with family and we have great fellowship and food together. I pray for the day we can get all the commercialism out of Holidays. If I never "celebrated" another holiday (not birthday, those are ok), it would be to soon.

2. This is a question only, it is not meant to be sarcastic, I really don't know the answer and Im very curious to know. What "Bible" do you use and where did it originate. My "Bible" shows a very vengeful God in the Old Testament (Soddom and Gomorrah (sorry, prob spelled it wrong) destroying the Earth the first time), seems to me and this is just IMHO, that our God can get very angry with us.

3. And I still think your comment is wrong. When you are tryng to show people the "way" there is no room for judgement, ridicule, or violence. You are defeating your purpose.

[Jared]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
I dont understand how you cant.


I was slumbering.

(Actually, helping my wife out after her surgery)


Anyway, I am probably late to this party, but I do believe that there must be some kind of higher intelligence or life form or whatever you wnat to call it (God, Jesus, yaweh, Allah, Jehovah, Vishnu, etc). I am not sure sure about each individual religion being convinced that they are right. I am also kind of adverse to specific codeified organized religions.

I am also not so sure you should dismiss people who don't. If you don't understand how someone can't, then seek out an athiest and ask. The ones I have met are not actively trying to get people to dis-believe, they would just like to express their position intelligently and be left alone with their decision. There are some fanatics in every belief system, atheists included, but by and large, I can understand and see why some people don't believe.

Religion (or a lack thereof) is such a personal decision, that I would just be careful of so easily dismissing the atheist/agnostic crowd. Truly coming to that decision is different than being a non observant person or not really giving a darn either way. the people who actively decide to have faith or not have a faith usually put a lot of thought and soul searching into that decision.

-J

This post was written while listening to Rush.

[rascal]

I hope your wife is okay.

[Orange&Blue]

Originally posted by Javalon
Okay, we'll here's another question: If God created us, He obviously instilled us with curiousity so why would he mind us questioning our religion?

I nominate that for one of the board's best quotes. Congrats Jav.

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by Orange&Blue
I nominate that for one of the board's best quotes. Congrats Jav. ???????

He instilled in us the ability to create knives and guns and instilled the urge to rape and kill and all types of other sins, does that justify the reason for some to use them? Just cause they are there doesnt always make it good to use.

[Orange&Blue]

So you're saying it is possible for humans to abuse their own curiosity? Interesting argument.

[rascal]

You cannot have blind faith. It is weak and the first time anything happens, death or sickness, that faith will crumble. It needs to have a strong foundation, and the only way to get that is to research it and look with an unbiased opinion. Because once you have done the research and backed up your faith with tangilble conclusions, you can go to others. Going to be people and telling them to believe in God "just because" will not get you anywhere. You will not be saved by others faith, you need your own.

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by Orange&Blue
So you're saying it is possible for humans to abuse their own curiosity? Interesting argument. Its not pnly possible, its common. We as humans abuse almost anything we want. Its not neccessarily bad to be curious, but it crosses the line when questioning GOD and his abilities. I just want to know, what is the alternate way for life to get here if it wasnt created?

[Orange&Blue]

If it wasn't for human curiousity, we would be dying of plague, believing that cats are evil and potatoes are poisonous. There have been lots of religions in the past, including ones that practiced human sacrifice. Should they not have questioned their religion either?

[Passepartout]

I believe in God the Father
He sent Jesus Christ
One and only Son
Jesus died on the cross for our sins and to save us from eternal seperation from hell
Rose three days after being crucified on the cross on Sunday, now known as Easter
And will be back again to get all of us!!

[Javalon]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
???????

He instilled in us the ability to create knives and guns and instilled the urge to rape and kill and all types of other sins, does that justify the reason for some to use them? Just cause they are there doesnt always make it good to use.

Um...maybe He instilled the urge to rape and kill into you but He sure didn't instill it into me. ;)

I truly doubt God instilled any evil urges into humans. We have free will. We (most of us) know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil. What we do with those gifts is up to us. But don't go claiming that God tempts us with evil urges. That would be Satan, if you follow that rationale.

Originally posted by Orange&Blue
If it wasn't for human curiousity, we would be dying of plague, believing that cats are evil and potatoes are poisonous. There have been lots of religions in the past, including ones that practiced human sacrifice. Should they not have questioned their religion either?

Good point, Orange&Blue. Curiosity is not an evil thing as Lava would seem to suggest.

[LawDog]

How did we get from curiosity to urges? That seems to be quite a leap. I think the answer lies in the numerous posts dealing with the concept of free will. You can't have free will if the only choices are "positive" and "neutral" without the flipside of "negative."

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by Javalon
Um...maybe He instilled the urge to rape and kill into you but He sure didn't instill it into me. ;)

I truly doubt God instilled any evil urges into humans. We have free will. We (most of us) know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil. What we do with those gifts is up to us. But don't go claiming that God tempts us with evil urges. That would be Satan, if you follow that rationale.

Good point, Orange&Blue. Curiosity is not an evil thing as Lava would seem to suggest. You misunderstand me. For one, I didnt say curiosity was evil, i was replyin to the post that since it is instilled in us, we should use it. Thats fine, but it cant be applied to religion because if you doubt GOD from the start, you will never follow cause nobody or nothing can PROVE it to you.You are right, GOD did not instill evil urges into us, i didnt mean it like that i apologize. what i meant was that he gave us free will and if we WANTED to kill and rape, we could. Just cause we can doesnt make it right. There is no point in being curious about your religion becasue you WILL NEVER know what you want. You will ALWAYS be contradicted somehow. There are too many unknowns around that nothing will make complete sense.

[Return of Lava]

Its really not that complicated, you cant take bits and pieces of every religion to form you own idea. You either go with one or you dont. It is useless asking questions because you will end up spending your whole life KNOWING absolutely NOTHING. How old are you all now? Still havent picked a religion? Then you probably never will. How did you believe in GOD in the first place? nobody PROVED it to you, you took it on blind faith. What so hard about accepting the rest? No need to ponder and question it. Tell me, what have you actually learned in all your years of questioning that you KNOW to be true about GOD?

[RunByDesign]

"It is useless asking questions because you will end up spending your whole life KNOWING absolutely NOTHING."

Why?

[Orange&Blue]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
Its really not that complicated, you cant take bits and pieces of every religion to form you own idea.

Why not? Don't the different forms of Christianity do that? Even though they have enough in common to qualify as Christianity, isn't it the bits and pieces that are accepted by one form and rejected by others what separates them? So what's stopping me from choosing to believe in a few aspects of Buddhism, Islam, and Christianity?

Originally posted by Return of Lava
It is useless asking questions because you will end up spending your whole life KNOWING absolutely NOTHING. How old are you all now? Still havent picked a religion? Then you probably never will. How did you believe in GOD in the first place? nobody PROVED it to you, you took it on blind faith. What so hard about accepting the rest? No need to ponder and question it. Tell me, what have you actually learned in all your years of questioning that you KNOW to be true about GOD?

What makes you think that I believed in God in the first place?

There's no point in questioning, so might as well believe? Well what about if there's no point in questioning, might as well disbelieve? You may think there is nothing to be gained by questioning, but is there anything to lose either? You may not be able to find out whether one religion is true or not, but you may be able to find out more about yourself as a person.

[Javalon]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
Its really not that complicated, you cant take bits and pieces of every religion to form you own idea. You either go with one or you dont.

That's one of the silliest things I've heard. As Orange&Blue pointed out, where do you think all the various religions came from in the first place?

It is useless asking questions because you will end up spending your whole life KNOWING absolutely NOTHING. How did you believe in GOD in the first place?

The only thing that will keep you from knowing anything is NOT asking questions.

How did I come to believe in God? The same way I came to believe in Santa Claus; somebody told me it was so and I believed it. Now I still believe there's a God but it's not simply because I was told to do so.

nobody PROVED it to you, you took it on blind faith. What so hard about accepting the rest? No need to ponder and question it.

True, you seem happy as a lemming so perhaps I should give it a try.

[RunByDesign]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
Its really not that complicated, you cant take bits and pieces of every religion to form you own idea. You either go with one or you dont. It is useless asking questions because you will end up spending your whole life KNOWING absolutely NOTHING. How old are you all now? Still havent picked a religion? Then you probably never will. How did you believe in GOD in the first place? nobody PROVED it to you, you took it on blind faith. What so hard about accepting the rest? No need to ponder and question it. Tell me, what have you actually learned in all your years of questioning that you KNOW to be true about GOD?

I am wondering, Lava...do you believe everything else in life, as well. Goverment info?... Media hype?....I mean what's the point in questioning anything? Might as well believe all those oil and chemical companies that say our water and air is fine despite all the pollutants they put in it. Might as well believe that OJ didn't do it, cuz the jury said he didn't. Might as well believe that the world is flat, because that is what we were told....Might as well believe anything anyone says because in the end, what is the use of questioning it? Might as well believe all the propaganda out there....saying that we should not question things, especially mindprogramming religion, is rediculous, my friend.

And please, tell me, what do you "KNOW" to be true about God? I am intersted to know.

[Orange&Blue]

From now on, all my posts on this topic are going to be in Do you believe in God, part 2: Proof or otherwise at:
http://www.denverbroncos.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=3494

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by Orange&Blue
Why not? Don't the different forms of Christianity do that? Even though they have enough in common to qualify as Christianity, isn't it the bits and pieces that are accepted by one form and rejected by others what separates them? So what's stopping me from choosing to believe in a few aspects of Buddhism, Islam, and Christianity?

What makes you think that I believed in God in the first place?

There's no point in questioning, so might as well believe? Well what about if there's no point in questioning, might as well disbelieve? You may think there is nothing to be gained by questioning, but is there anything to lose either? You may not be able to find out whether one religion is true or not, but you may be able to find out more about yourself as a person. find out about yourself? Im sorry, but what you might find out about yourself by questiong religion, you wont like. All you will find out is that you are not satisfied with any one religion and maybe just think you and only you know whats best for the world. I dont care if you believe or not, it makes no difference to me. If you dont believe then why are you even questioning religions. If you wanna disbelieve, go ahead. What do you have to lose? How about everlasting life. You do what you have to do and i will do the same OK?

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by portisistheman
And please, tell me, what do you "KNOW" to be true about God? I am intersted to know. I am not even going to answer the rest of that post since it was so...........silly. anyway, i'll tell you what i know. NOTHING, thats right, but the difference between me and all of you is I accept what i am told from my preacher as he accepts whats in the Bible. we both dont know jack but to have faith means to believe and trust even.....no....especially when you are not sure. All you outsiders can sit on the fence all day "well i believe in him but" until you realize you will never know, you will be confused. And whoever posted that comment about "how do you think the different religions got here then Lava" what are you gonna do, start your own religion? Im not trying to be mean, but this is pathetic questioning something you cant know for sure. you dont have to choose a religion, but if you choose GOD to be real or unreal, it doesnt matter if you stop there. Heck, the devil too believes in GOD. You cant just be good and call it obeying. I am still waiting for anybody to tell me what they learned to be absolutely TRUE about GOD from all your darn questions. anybody.......ANYBODY! Can you do it?

[neisha26]

I know this might be kind of late or whatever because you been started the thread but late is better than never. lava i have a lot of respect for you. this subject really touched me. i love the LORD he is my jehovah jireh. meaning= (MY PROVIDER) even though we might fall short of the LORDS glory he still blesses us. but we all makes mistakes but were all born in sin so it's forgiving. I just wanted you to know that I loved the subject and may GOD bless you in everything you do. and remember don't be weary in well doings for the LORD loves a cheerful giver. may GOD bless you


sincerly neisha26:D

[Orange&Blue]

Like I said, from now on, all my posts on this topic are going to be in Do you believe in God, part 2: Proof or otherwise at:
http://www.denverbroncos.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=3494

If you want to see my replies, you'll have to go there.

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
I am not even going to answer the rest of that post since it was so...........silly. anyway, i'll tell you what i know. NOTHING, thats right, but the difference between me and all of you is I accept what i am told from my preacher as he accepts whats in the Bible. we both dont know jack but to have faith means to believe and trust even.....no....especially when you are not sure. All you outsiders can sit on the fence all day "well i believe in him but" until you realize you will never know, you will be confused. And whoever posted that comment about "how do you think the different religions got here then Lava" what are you gonna do, start your own religion? Im not trying to be mean, but this is pathetic questioning something you cant know for sure. you dont have to choose a religion, but if you choose GOD to be real or unreal, it doesnt matter if you stop there. Heck, the devil too believes in GOD. You cant just be good and call it obeying. I am still waiting for anybody to tell me what they learned to be absolutely TRUE about GOD from all your darn questions. anybody.......ANYBODY! Can you do it? Hey im still waiting for this. You cant answer it can you? Shows you how far quetsioning has brought you. A couple steps in the same spot. I think i proved my point.

[rascal]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
but the difference between me and all of you is I accept what i am told from my preacher as he accepts whats in the Bible. I am still waiting for anybody to tell me what they learned to be absolutely TRUE about GOD from all your darn questions. anybody.......ANYBODY! Can you do it?

So basically you have faith because your preacher has faith and because he told you to. That is blind faith if I have ever seen it. I learned that my essay's are valid, even if Javalon disagrees with them :). And that it all hinges on whether or not they believe that the universe had a beginning or not. From this discussion I gained a broader view and learned how to defend my stance on religion. Just because you may not agree with someone or gain any factual information from a discussion does not mean that it can not be beneficial. You need some growing up to do.

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by rascal
So basically you have faith because your preacher has faith and because he told you to. That is blind faith if I have ever seen it. I learned that my essay's are valid, even if Javalon disagrees with them :). And that it all hinges on whether or not they believe that the universe had a beginning or not. From this discussion I gained a broader view and learned how to defend my stance on religion. Just because you may not agree with someone or gain any factual information from a discussion does not mean that it can not be beneficial. You need some growing up to do. I need some growing up? LOL, Ok, let me ask you what religion you are. i dont have a problem with different religions, but if you are saying i shoulnt trust my preacher, maybe you are the one who needs to grow up. When you realize how little you really know about whatever you try to look up and write an essay about, the sooner you will accept what you are told from YOUR preacher. If you dont trust your preacher at all, how can you say you are even in a religion. That really wasnt a smart post.

and NOBODY has answered my question yet.

[rascal]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
I need some growing up? LOL, Ok, let me ask you what religion you are. i dont have a problem with different religions, but if you are saying i shoulnt trust my preacher, maybe you are the one who needs to grow up. When you realize how little you really know about whatever you try to look up and write an essay about, the sooner you will accept what you are told from YOUR preacher. If you dont trust your preacher at all, how can you say you are even in a religion. That really wasnt a smart post.


Actually, it was a smart post. You are just to arrogant to open your eyes.

I am Church of Christ, and I never said not to trust your preacher. But you cannot believe something just because they say it is so. You have to find out for yourself! I did not believe in God when I was younger and I was approached by a friend who did. We discussed it, and I was compelled to do the research and find out for myself. I did the research and the results of what I found I typed to keep for reference and to help others.

Look at this scripture Acts 17:11 "These (Bereans) were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." You are suppose to take what your preacher gives you, or anyone else for that matter, and research it yourself to find out.

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by rascal
Actually, it was a smart post. You are just to arrogant to open your eyes.

I am Church of Christ, and I never said not to trust your preacher. But you cannot believe something just because they say it is so. You have to find out for yourself! I did not believe in God when I was younger and I was approached by a friend who did. We discussed it, and I was compelled to do the research and find out for myself. I did the research and the results of what I found I typed to keep for reference and to help others.

Look at this scripture Acts 17:11 "These (Bereans) were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." You are suppose to take what your preacher gives you, or anyone else for that matter, and research it yourself to find out. Well, its not like one day i didnt believe in GOD and a preacher came to my door and told me to believe if thats what you're thinking about me. My mom introduced me to Jehovah Witnesses, and found it does make perfect sense to me. So, now that im in the religion, i learn from the preacher. I dont need to look everything he says up for myself becasue i am following along in the bible as he reads. Besides, what if you try to look it up for yourself and find out its not the way you interpret it, you gonna drop the religion? Dont call me arrogant you dont now what you are talking about and thats the 3rd time you insult me. im letting it slide though cause im coo like that.

[rascal]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
Besides, what if you try to look it up for yourself and find out its not the way you interpret it, you gonna drop the religion?

Actually I was thinking that you believed just because your parents believed. You saw your parents going to church and that they believed in God so you did also. I see it all the time.

I think analytically so I just don't accept something as fact because somebody tells me it is. I am going to research it and find out for myself.

If I look up the scripture and find out that the preacher used a scripture incorrectly or that his conclusion was wrong, I am going to tell him. My preacher encourages us do to this, because he doesn't want to preach something false or use something incorrectly. However, if he is making some big doctrine lesson and it hinges on this one scripture and that scripture is used incorrectly then I defintely have a problem (this has never happened). Because what is to prevent you from being influenced by a false teacher, which, trust me here, are at work today.

I suprised Javalon hasn't jumped on this.

[neisha26]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
I need some growing up? LOL, Ok, let me ask you what religion you are. i dont have a problem with different religions, but if you are saying i shoulnt trust my preacher, maybe you are the one who needs to grow up. When you realize how little you really know about whatever you try to look up and write an essay about, the sooner you will accept what you are told from YOUR preacher. If you dont trust your preacher at all, how can you say you are even in a religion. That really wasnt a smart post.

and NOBODY has answered my question yet. what was your answer? okay lava you seem like a smart individual okay the bible says in galatians 6:7 be not decieved; GOD is not mocked for what so ever a man soweth that shall he also reap.
II corinthians 10:3 for we walk in flesh, we do not war after the flesh. Remember everyone does not have the same faith as you so you really can't fuss w/ unbelievers that is a no win situation. i'm not refering this to the semi-argument you are having with the other person i'm just stating in general.and last but no least I corinthians 2:14: the natural man recieveth not the things of the spirit of GOD for they are foolish unto him neither can he know them because they are spirtually discerned that's for the unbelievers you don't have to fuss w/ people for the bible tells you you have people who can't and won't under stand so just be @ peace with yourself and just leave it alone.

[orangenblue420]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
I dont need to look everything he says up for myself becasue i am following along in the bible as he reads. Besides, what if you try to look it up for yourself and find out its not the way you interpret it, you gonna drop the religion?

Just a quick comment..........how can you justifiably defend your religion when your facts come from another human being......I am sorry but I dont care who you are, there is a possibility you are a liar and much worse. Look at teh Catholic boys who believed evertything their priests said.

You DO have to look for yourself. Thats why God gave you a brain and the ability to think and rationalize. It is just plain ignorant to believe something because some person says its so. And yes I see where you said you read along, but still you have to have some individual thinking or you are following something not believing in something. Your comment makes it seem like you follow a man and what he believes. Im not saying that is what you think, im just saying that is how it came across.

[neisha26]

this is to the 4th amigo: okay you said that you don't believe that people should be born again and i respect that. but one thing if you aren't a christian then u will have a problem w/ that. now i'm a christian woman and proud of it. even in the bible abraham, peter etc got saved/baptized even jesus so i don't think that their is a problem GOD gave his only begotten son and if he sacrificed his only son for us why shouldn't we be born again i don't find a problem with it. ;)

[The-4th-Amigo]

You lost me neisha. I am Bible beliving, born again Christian. Jesus is my Lord. What post did you read of mine did I say people should not be born again? Let me know so I can fix it. Thank you!

[donkeypong]

My answer to the thread's original question, without qualification, is: No.

[brnc fan 14]

Originally posted by rascal
Oh, that is defintely a Christian attitude. I'm sure you just gave devil worshippers, and others, a reason to stay away.

its dumbasses like these who give anti-christians just another reason to hate christians and catholics. great job

[brnc fan 14]

Originally posted by The-4th-Amigo
Yes, but they have added books to their version and Catholics also use other books than the Bible. I only use the Bible. a huge difference in my book.

if you only listen to the bible, not to God who wrote it, whats the point

[Orange&Blue]

Originally posted by brnc fan 14
its dumbasses like these who give anti-christians just another reason to hate christians and catholics. great job

What in that quote would give anti-christians another reason to hate christians and catholics?

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by brnc fan 14
its dumbasses like these who give anti-christians just another reason to hate christians and catholics. great job What did you call me?

[rascal]

I assume that brnc fan 14 is calling Lava a dumbass and not me. I don't understand why you bring this up when it was mentioned 2 weeks ago.

Just to clarify..
Lava said, "and while we are talking about this, do we have any devil worshipers here? i would hate to find that one of you were cause if it was up to me, i'd kill all of them right now!"

I responded with, "Oh, that is defintely a Christian attitude. I'm sure you just gave devil worshippers, and others, a reason to stay away."

Two weeks later brnc fan 14 responded with, "its dumbasses like these who give anti-christians just another reason to hate christians and catholics. great job".

Personally I did not appreciate the comment that Lava made. I don't care what someone's religious beliefs are it is no reason to kill them. That was just poor taste. My comment was basically that saying stuff like that, what lava said, helps non-believers stay away from christianity and other religions because a majority of them consider us to my hypocrites, and that statement only helps solidify that image. However, that is still no reason to come in 2 weeks later and call someone a dumbass especially when you did not enter into the original discussion.

[Return of Lava]

well allow me to clarify this thing

yes i said i dont like devil worshiper and think the world would be better off without them. as far as hypocrites, i never claimed to be GOD, why cant i imagine who i want gone? i said, if it were up to me, i would get rid of them, GOD of course has different plans for them, thats why HE is so great, HE has the patience to deal with them, i dont. there is nothing anybody can say to make me believe the devil has helped his worshipers with ANYTHING and is worth being bowed down to. there is no reason. i would however like to hear the reason they come up with. so those who do, obviously are troublemakers and deserve to be put in the same category with rapist worshipers and serial killer worshipers. "i" feel they should all be terminated NOW instead of LATER like GOD's plan is anyway.

[rascal]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
"i" feel they should all be terminated NOW instead of LATER like GOD's plan is anyway.

I thought this thread had already been closed. I feel an urge to argue with on this, but I won't because I am tired of it.

[Orange&Blue]

Originally posted by rascal
I thought this thread had already been closed. I feel an urge to argue with on this, but I won't because I am tired of it.

You should. It'll rejuvenate this interesting topic.

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by rascal
I thought this thread had already been closed. I feel an urge to argue with on this, but I won't because I am tired of it. this thread was never closed. just all of a sudden moved, for some reason, to another thread. anyway, im sure you know about the judgement day and all that about the proud sinners (murderers, rapists, devil worshipers) will be no more and all else will live happy in paradise. i was just suggesting that , if i were GOD i would speed it up a bit, but it wasnt even that important since im not GOD.

[rascal]

Originally posted by Orange&Blue
You should. It'll rejuvenate this interesting topic.

Then go ahead and proceed. I'll jump in later.

[Javalon]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
this thread was never closed. just all of a sudden moved, for some reason, to another thread. anyway, im sure you know about the judgement day and all that about the proud sinners (murderers, rapists, devil worshipers) will be no more and all else will live happy in paradise. i was just suggesting that , if i were GOD i would speed it up a bit, but it wasnt even that important since im not GOD.

No, this thread wasn't closed. The other thread was intended as a tangent to the original question you posed.

As far as this Satanist topic goes, I find it interesting that you only specified "murderers, rapists, devil worshipers" as those who will be no more while "all else will live happy in paradise." According to your religion, don't the folks who are good people but just don't happen to believe your faith ALSO cease to exist and not live happy in paradise? According to your belief, in God's eyes were no better off than the murderers, rapist, and Satanists.

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by Javalon
No, this thread wasn't closed. The other thread was intended as a tangent to the original question you posed.

As far as this Satanist topic goes, I find it interesting that you only specified "murderers, rapists, devil worshipers" as those who will be no more while "all else will live happy in paradise." According to your religion, don't the folks who are good people but just don't happen to believe your faith ALSO cease to exist and not live happy in paradise? According to your belief, in God's eyes were no better off than the murderers, rapist, and Satanists. actually , i didnt go through and mention all the scenarios cause i didnt feel like it. besides that, i couldnt! there are many more categories that would also cease to exist those 3 are not the only ones.

i never said those who dont follow MY faith are doomed. i dont really know about that. i dont have a problem with the different religions. they can be resurrected too in my opinion. you dont even have a religion if i remember correct, so why are you defending them?

[Orange&Blue]

I find it strange that someone with such strong religious convictions would so unabashedly wish death on others. I don't know about the ins and outs of certain religions, but don't most of them cherish life? Yeah, I know. You're not GOD, so you can wish whatever you want; just not act upon those thoughts. Well, there's still something disconcerting about that that is difficult to descibe. It's as if the reason you don't kill is because it is against your religion, not because you find it personally wrong. It's like a man who says that he wouldn't cheat on his wife, not because he loves her, but because it'd be adultry. Maybe that's a bad analogy, but that's what I came up with on the fly.

[Javalon]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
actually , i didnt go through and mention all the scenarios cause i didnt feel like it. besides that, i couldnt! there are many more categories that would also cease to exist those 3 are not the only ones.

i never said those who dont follow MY faith are doomed. i dont really know about that. i dont have a problem with the different religions. they can be resurrected too in my opinion. you dont even have a religion if i remember correct, so why are you defending them?

God, I knew it would be mistake to get involved with this thread again. :)

First, I thought JW's in general (not you in particular) taught that anyone and everyone who doesn't follow your religion are in the same boat; i.e. not going to "live happy in paradise." Is that not what you're taught?

Second, I never ever said I didn't have a religion. ;)

Third, I am damn well NOT defending Satanists. If I were (which I'm not), I would point out that just as there are diffent types of Christians, there are also different types of Satanists. Some actually believe in Satan and worship him and intentionally perform evil acts to please their lord. Others don't believe Satan actually exists but believe in the satanic bible's teachings that you should worship yourself (to put it simply). One type is just evil, the other is just justifying their selfishness and turning it into an attribute. And, for all I know, there could even be other types of Satanists out there. I don't like any of their ideas of which I am aware, but that doesn't mean I will stereotype them into one group and claim they all need to be killed.

[donkeypong]

I unsubscribed from this thread & still got a notice. So I looked in. Appears to me some comic relief is in order. But first:

I'm an atheist. That's all, no preachin'.

Here's a joke I found on a site of Russian jokes, a year or so ago. Some of the jokes were lame, a lot were pretty cute, & some, like this one, I found charming.

Here it is, as best I can remember . . .

An engineer dies and goes to hell. He's dismayed at first, but he soon gets acclimated, and goes to work at what he loves best. After a month he has installed flush toilets, air conditioning, and even a disco. It isn't much longer before he's become somewhat of a celebrity and a scion of hell.

Satan decides to taunt god with this, so he gives him a ring.

"Hey god, hell's lookin' up these days; we got an engineer down here, he's put in flush toilets, air conditioning, a disco even. So, how's things in heaven?"

"What? You have an engineer? That was obviously a mistake. Send him up here right away."

"Y'know, I don't think I will. No, we kinda like having him here. Yeah, I think we're gonna keep him."

"Now you listen good, satan. You get that engineer to the shaft and you send him up here pronto, or so help me, I'll sue!"

"Yeah? And where are you gonna find a lawyer?"

[donkeypong]

No flames from Christian lawyers, please ... it's only a joke, & a foreign one at that. Different sensibilities, & so on . . . . .

I know the satan-worshipping attorneys'll love it. But no fan mail. Please.

People crack me up. They do.

I believe in the ******* Broncos, though. Yeah! Embarrassed the Raiduhs, they did!

On to Pearl Harbor Day! (Uuhhhh... changed my mind; maybe a prayer or two is warranted . . .) [just joking]

~DP

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by Orange&Blue
I find it strange that someone with such strong religious convictions would so unabashedly wish death on others. I don't know about the ins and outs of certain religions, but don't most of them cherish life? Yeah, I know. You're not GOD, so you can wish whatever you want; just not act upon those thoughts. Well, there's still something disconcerting about that that is difficult to descibe. It's as if the reason you don't kill is because it is against your religion, not because you find it personally wrong. It's like a man who says that he wouldn't cheat on his wife, not because he loves her, but because it'd be adultry. Maybe that's a bad analogy, but that's what I came up with on the fly. if you believe in GOD, you would know that GOD has plans for the future. (I'm not saying you dont im just talking about what i said) GOD will get rid of all those undeserving, but we dont know when, all im saying is if it was up to me, i would get ri of them NOW. Wishing death? More like speeding up the inevitable. You can take that how you want it doesnt matter, you all dont follow my religion anyway so you just keep on finding reasons to question me and keep on finding things strange about my religion i dont care. i'll say it again for you. If it were up to me, i would GET RID OF ALL DEVIL WORSHIPERS!

[donkeypong]

So . . . . . . . . . no ****in' sense a humor. As I suspected.

So long, dumbasses. See ya in the relevant forums:

[Orange&Blue]

Originally posted by donkeypong
So . . . . . . . . . no ****in' sense a humor. As I suspected.

So long, dumbasses. See ya in the relevant forums:

I thought it was funny but I just didn't reply about it. Now I have. Feel better?

[donkeypong]

No ............... sorry. Didn't know "dumbass" was such a stinging epithet.

:D

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by donkeypong
So . . . . . . . . . no ****in' sense a humor. As I suspected.

So long, dumbasses. See ya in the relevant forums: aint nothin funny about atheist HYUCK HYUCK!

[donkeypong]

Ahhh; popularity at last. Time to bow out for real. I've done this before, & it never turns out good.

'Bye, folks.

[Orange&Blue]

Originally posted by donkeypong
No ............... sorry. Didn't know "dumbass" was such a stinging epithet.

:D

It's not, but since I couldn't tell how serious you were, I just assumed you were a little disappointed from the lack of love.

Originally posted by donkeypong
Ahhh; popularity at last. Time to bow out for real. I've done this before, & it never turns out good.

'Bye, folks.

What do you mean by "I've done this before, & it never turns out good?" Have you been kicked out of here before? If you have, I don't hold it against you. Later DP! :)

[Orange&Blue]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
if you believe in GOD, you would know that GOD has plans for the future. (I'm not saying you dont im just talking about what i said) GOD will get rid of all those undeserving, but we dont know when, all im saying is if it was up to me, i would get ri of them NOW. Wishing death? More like speeding up the inevitable. You can take that how you want it doesnt matter, you all dont follow my religion anyway so you just keep on finding reasons to question me and keep on finding things strange about my religion i dont care. i'll say it again for you. If it were up to me, i would GET RID OF ALL DEVIL WORSHIPERS!

I hope you aren't taking my questions as personal attacks. If you are, then I'll stop, and I apologize.

[donkeypong]

O&B:

Not here, elsewhere ... but about the same thing.

Haven't been kicked outta here yet; basically kicking myself out. My posts after the joke were unnecessary, gratuitous, whatever. Like everyone else, I get carried away. This is the last time I let that happen. [Geez, I hope so.]

You can jabber w/ your friends (in the physical realm) about politics, religion, get in fights even; somehow you're all together again the next day.

Message boards don't seem to work like that.

(Sheesh, how do ya unsubscribe?)

[Orange&Blue]

No problem. I know what you mean. I call my friends friendly insults too.

There should be a button at the bottom of the thread that allows you to unsubscribe right? As a last resort, if you go to "user cp" "Edit Options," there should be a choice "Use 'Email Notification' by default?."

[palehorse]

I think before that question can be honestly answered we need to define what you mean by belief.

[rascal]

Originally posted by Orange&Blue
I find it strange that someone with such strong religious convictions would so unabashedly wish death on others. I don't know about the ins and outs of certain religions, but don't most of them cherish life? Yeah, I know. You're not GOD, so you can wish whatever you want; just not act upon those thoughts. Well, there's still something disconcerting about that that is difficult to descibe. It's as if the reason you don't kill is because it is against your religion, not because you find it personally wrong. It's like a man who says that he wouldn't cheat on his wife, not because he loves her, but because it'd be adultry. Maybe that's a bad analogy, but that's what I came up with on the fly.

I am a Christian, Church of Christ, and we do not feel the same as Lava and JW, that being wishing death on others who don't worship God exactly the same way we do.

[brnc fan 14]

Originally posted by rascal
I assume that brnc fan 14 is calling Lava a dumbass and not me. I don't understand why you bring this up when it was mentioned 2 weeks ago.

Just to clarify..
Lava said, "and while we are talking about this, do we have any devil worshipers here? i would hate to find that one of you were cause if it was up to me, i'd kill all of them right now!"

I responded with, "Oh, that is defintely a Christian attitude. I'm sure you just gave devil worshippers, and others, a reason to stay away."

Two weeks later brnc fan 14 responded with, "its dumbasses like these who give anti-christians just another reason to hate christians and catholics. great job".

Personally I did not appreciate the comment that Lava made. I don't care what someone's religious beliefs are it is no reason to kill them. That was just poor taste. My comment was basically that saying stuff like that, what lava said, helps non-believers stay away from christianity and other religions because a majority of them consider us to my hypocrites, and that statement only helps solidify that image. However, that is still no reason to come in 2 weeks later and call someone a dumbass especially when you did not enter into the original discussion.

you assume correctly. i was not calling you a dumbass. i was calling lava a dumbass because even if it was okay to kill people because of their religion--which it is not--still, saying things like that just gives them an excuse to make chrisitans look bad

the reason i responded to something from 2 weeks ago is that im a junior at high school and i dont have a lot of time to get on the internet--im barely pulling a 3.5 as it is

[rascal]

Originally posted by brnc fan 14
you assume correctly. i was not calling you a dumbass. i was calling lava a dumbass because even if it was okay to kill people because of their religion--which it is not--still, saying things like that just gives them an excuse to make chrisitans look bad

the reason i responded to something from 2 weeks ago is that im a junior at high school and i dont have a lot of time to get on the internet--im barely pulling a 3.5 as it is

Cool. Good luck with school. 3.5 GPA is nothing to be ashamed of.

[Return of Lava]

Originally posted by brnc fan 14
you assume correctly. i was not calling you a dumbass. i was calling lava a dumbass because even if it was okay to kill people because of their religion--which it is not--still, saying things like that just gives them an excuse to make chrisitans look bad

the reason i responded to something from 2 weeks ago is that im a junior at high school and i dont have a lot of time to get on the internet--im barely pulling a 3.5 as it is yeah well you better watch your mouth around me ill let that one slide but dont let me see it again. dont start nothin wont be nothin jr.

[MSFORD11]

brnc fan 14...

Whats up O.C.?

[brnc fan 14]

Originally posted by MSFORD11
brnc fan 14...

Whats up O.C.?

whats up in the oc? not much.
i dont know where you live, but if you dont live in calif...
the real orange county i live in isnt exactly like the oc in "The OC", if youve ever seen the show.
(I live in hunnington beach, not newport beach)