Lets go all LSU for the first round [Archive] - Broncos Country Message Boards

OhNoKoolAid

11-27-2005, 03:05 PM

I am totally for this. Wroten is an absolute animal on the line. Landry has been impressive. I would love these two guys with our first two picks.

The problem is that Wroten doesn't solve anything as far as the pass rush goes. We are generating a solid push into the backfield, but nobody can collapse the pocket. Wroten would just be another pocket pusher, and his strengths would be hidden by our lack of pocket collapsing capabilities, much like Warren and Brown's are. I seriously believe that one edge rusher would cause a complete turnaround in sack production. If a guy like Kiwi, Williams or Edwards could cause the QB to step up in the pocket, Warren would have easily twice as many sacks as he does now, if not three times that amount. This is the one thing we haven't been doing. Don't get me wrong, Wroten is great, but another disruptive pocket pusher will not make a difference to a line only missing one key ingredient.

BroncoRT

11-27-2005, 05:12 PM

The problem is that Wroten doesn't solve anything as far as the pass rush goes. We are generating a solid push into the backfield, but nobody can collapse the pocket. Wroten would just be another pocket pusher, and his strengths would be hidden by our lack of pocket collapsing capabilities, much like Warren and Brown's are. I seriously believe that one edge rusher would cause a complete turnaround in sack production. If a guy like Kiwi, Williams or Edwards could cause the QB to step up in the pocket, Warren would have easily twice as many sacks as he does now, if not three times that amount. This is the one thing we haven't been doing. Don't get me wrong, Wroten is great, but another disruptive pocket pusher will not make a difference to a line only missing one key ingredient.

I have seen him three times this year and he is in the backfield consistently. That's not pushing, that is absolutely destroying it. I have seen Ngata play a few times and he has not been as disruptive as Wroten, but still impressive.

I would love Kiwi. Mario IMO is not worth trading two first rounders for. I have seen him play a few times and he is good but not spectacular. He has an ideal physique for a DE but his playmaking abilities are in question. It is not like Mario is getting double teamed all day, because he isn't with Manny Lawson and McCargo rushing also, opposing teams have to protect against all three and not just Mario.

Kiwi on the other hand is a bonified playmaker. He is always around the ball and makes things happen. I have seen him double and triple teamed and he still makes plays. You can just see that he is something special.

We are probably going to be drafting at #15-20 with the Skins pick and I can see us trading up both picks for Kiwi,but not Mario. If we can't trade up for Kiwi than grab Wroten with the first pick.

OhNoKoolAid

11-27-2005, 05:32 PM

I have seen him three times this year and he is in the backfield consistently. That's not pushing, that is absolutely destroying it. I have seen Ngata play a few times and he has not been as disruptive as Wroten, but still impressive.

I would love Kiwi. Mario IMO is not worth trading two first rounders for. I have seen him play a few times and he is good but not spectacular. He has an ideal physique for a DE but his playmaking abilities are in question. It is not like Mario is getting double teamed all day, because he isn't with Manny Lawson and McCargo rushing also, opposing teams have to protect against all three and not just Mario.

Kiwi on the other hand is a bonified playmaker. He is always around the ball and makes things happen. I have seen him double and triple teamed and he still makes plays. You can just see that he is something special.

We are probably going to be drafting at #15-20 with the Skins pick and I can see us trading up both picks for Kiwi,but not Mario. If we can't trade up for Kiwi than grab Wroten with the first pick.

How many times have you seen Mario? Did you watch him yesterday? Surely you did not or you'd be singing a different tune. Lawson is good, but McCargo is not as great as you make him out to be. As for the double teams, he gets frequent double teams if you watch him constantly. He is the left end, so he often must fight off the tight end and right tackle. His speed off the edge for his size is quite uncanny. You haven't given this guy a fair shake, he's flat dominated several games this year, and he carried NC State into a bowl game with his performance yesterday, the single best one of a defensive lineman I've seen this year. Most scouts are already considering him the top end prospect, because he is a genetic freak. Kiper loves him too.

And on Wroten, you are misunderstanding the direction of the rush. A DT cannot collapse the pocket, it can only push it under normal rush condidtions, so even if he gets in the backfield, as Warren has done several times, the QB can just continue to fade back or roll out, and if you know anything about Wroten's athletic testing in the spring, he won't consistently run down QBs who roll out. All I'm saying is we get consistent push and inside disruption as it is, we need a guy off the edge to keep the QB from simply fading back or running away. If you want an example, look at what Burgess has done for Oakland's sack totals and pass rush. They had good push last season, but now with Burgess hurrying throws with speed or taking away deep dropbacks, Sapp and Tommy Kelly have started to turnaround and emerge respectively.

WABronco

11-27-2005, 05:57 PM

How many times have you seen Mario? Did you watch him yesterday? Surely you did not or you'd be singing a different tune. Lawson is good, but McCargo is not as great as you make him out to be. As for the double teams, he gets frequent double teams if you watch him constantly. He is the left end, so he often must fight off the tight end and right tackle. His speed off the edge for his size is quite uncanny. You haven't given this guy a fair shake, he's flat dominated several games this year, and he carried NC State into a bowl game with his performance yesterday, the single best one of a defensive lineman I've seen this year. Most scouts are already considering him the top end prospect, because he is a genetic freak. Kiper loves him too.

And on Wroten, you are misunderstanding the direction of the rush. A DT cannot collapse the pocket, it can only push it under normal rush condidtions, so even if he gets in the backfield, as Warren has done several times, the QB can just continue to fade back or roll out, and if you know anything about Wroten's athletic testing in the spring, he won't consistently run down QBs who roll out. All I'm saying is we get consistent push and inside disruption as it is, we need a guy off the edge to keep the QB from simply fading back or running away. If you want an example, look at what Burgess has done for Oakland's sack totals and pass rush. They had good push last season, but now with Burgess hurrying throws with speed or taking away deep dropbacks, Sapp and Tommy Kelly have started to turnaround and emerge respectively.

Good point with Burgess...

BTW, I watched some of the NC State game, and I'd be happy with Mario Williams. Problem is, there's no way we'll be able to get him, or anyone else who has pass rushing capability of any significance, without trading up big time. Take Demarcus Ware as an example, he shot up to 13 (I think) after he was pegged to be in the low first, early second.

However, Ware bares no comparison (as far as measurables and use) to Mario, or Kiwi for that matter. Those guys will be gone top ten...if not top five.

Emancipator

11-27-2005, 05:58 PM

They certainly have the players to do just that. But I think we will look all over for the best.

OhNoKoolAid

11-27-2005, 06:25 PM

Good point with Burgess...

BTW, I watched some of the NC State game, and I'd be happy with Mario Williams. Problem is, there's no way we'll be able to get him, or anyone else who has pass rushing capability of any significance, without trading up big time. Take Demarcus Ware as an example, he shot up to 13 (I think) after he was pegged to be in the low first, early second.

However, Ware bares no comparison (as far as measurables and use) to Mario, or Kiwi for that matter. Those guys will be gone top ten...if not top five.

I think yesterday's game pushed Mario into the top five picks. Really, he has had the best last half of a season of any defensive lineman. Kiper as begun raving about him, and he is going to test through the roof. For all the sacks Dumervil has accumulated, has he had two games of 4+ sacks? I'm sure he and Mario may be the only two. Williams is the best fit in our gap scheme anyways, because he is frequently asked to cover in the NC State system, as Denver's are in zone blocking. When the smoke clears, I expect Williams to go ahead of Kiwi, and possibly in the top five.

We need an edge rush, plain and simple. Luckily, the first round should have enough to choose from if we don't trade up. Dumervil, Hali, Edwards and Adams all could be pass rushers off the edge. Adams would be a good fit because he too is asked to cover quite often, plus, we love to draft Clemson linemen...

WABronco

11-27-2005, 06:40 PM

I think yesterday's game pushed Mario into the top five picks. Really, he has had the best last half of a season of any defensive lineman. Kiper as begun raving about him, and he is going to test through the roof. For all the sacks Dumervil has accumulated, has he had two games of 4+ sacks? I'm sure he and Mario may be the only two. Williams is the best fit in our gap scheme anyways, because he is frequently asked to cover in the NC State system, as Denver's are in zone blocking. When the smoke clears, I expect Williams to go ahead of Kiwi, and possibly in the top five.

We need an edge rush, plain and simple. Luckily, the first round should have enough to choose from if we don't trade up. Dumervil, Hali, Edwards and Adams all could be pass rushers off the edge. Adams would be a good fit because he too is asked to cover quite often, plus, we love to draft Clemson linemen...

All right, good...

I'd like to see us pick up a premier guy, but I'd be ok with the guys you listed, espescially Dumervil.

I'm very anxious to see Dumervil's numbers in the combine! I think he could experience the same vault-up that Ware did last year, but he needs to improve on his measured speed. As far as I'm concerned though, he's legit. That type of ungodly, supernatural production isn't a mistake or luck...

What kind of role would he play in Denver's system? I don't know if he could be a 3 down guy right off the bat, but maybe he could fill the "rover" role, ala Ware and Mathis...

I haven't seen Hali in a game yet. What's he like? Speed or power? Skilled or just advantageous?

Also, who's this Adams guy? I haven't heard a stitch about him, but that's probly cuz I'm not tuned in as much... ;)

OhNoKoolAid

11-27-2005, 07:26 PM

All right, good...

I'd like to see us pick up a premier guy, but I'd be ok with the guys you listed, espescially Dumervil.

I'm very anxious to see Dumervil's numbers in the combine! I think he could experience the same vault-up that Ware did last year, but he needs to improve on his measured speed. As far as I'm concerned though, he's legit. That type of ungodly, supernatural production isn't a mistake or luck...

What kind of role would he play in Denver's system? I don't know if he could be a 3 down guy right off the bat, but maybe he could fill the "rover" role, ala Ware and Mathis...

I haven't seen Hali in a game yet. What's he like? Speed or power? Skilled or just advantageous?

Also, who's this Adams guy? I haven't heard a stitch about him, but that's probly cuz I'm not tuned in as much... ;)

I'll take these one at a time:

Dumervil would probably be more of a wave player to begin with. The key to him as you mentioned is his testing, but most importantly, his appearance come the combine. If he displays solid bulk with good times, people will overlook his lack of height. He's looked explosive in the games I've seen, and I would compare his role to that of Bert Barry's while he was in Denver. I think he's a real wild card because despite all the positives, size is a legit concern.

Hali's best strength is his unrelenting desire to make a play. He just doesn't stay blocked at the left end position. He has above average quickness and solid speed, and he's been quite the playmaker. I have concerns about him as well. For starters, facing Big Ten right tackles is not facing an elite athletic bunch. Also, I'm not sure what type of ceiling Hali has. His testing will be key, because I don't think his quickness and speed are on par with the top pass rushers in the league. If his numbers are comparable, he could be a good one, because his intensity is outstanding. He also has strength to hold at the point of attack, but I would prefer him on the right side.

Gaines Adams is a junior "Bandit" at Clemson. He has great listed size (6'5 260) and speed (4.5-ish) according to the school. He's also considered to be the best overall athlete on a talented Clemson defense. In the regular season, Adams recorded 44 tackles, 9.5 tackles for loss, and led the team in sacks (6.5) pressures (24) and pass defensed (7!) while rotating along the line. He shows an excellent closing burst and ability to play in space. He is a powerful tackler and is young enough to make even greater strides. I'd put him on the cusp of round one, and would compare him to Justin Tuck. I think he is more raw than most, but his ceiling is higher than Hali's. That seven passes defensed really stands out regarding his ability to both disrupt passing lanes and cover in zone plays.

WABronco

11-27-2005, 07:59 PM

I'll take these one at a time:

Dumervil would probably be more of a wave player to begin with. The key to him as you mentioned is his testing, but most importantly, his appearance come the combine. If he displays solid bulk with good times, people will overlook his lack of height. He's looked explosive in the games I've seen, and I would compare his role to that of Bert Barry's while he was in Denver. I think he's a real wild card because despite all the positives, size is a legit concern.

Hali's best strength is his unrelenting desire to make a play. He just doesn't stay blocked at the left end position. He has above average quickness and solid speed, and he's been quite the playmaker. I have concerns about him as well. For starters, facing Big Ten right tackles is not facing an elite athletic bunch. Also, I'm not sure what type of ceiling Hali has. His testing will be key, because I don't think his quickness and speed are on par with the top pass rushers in the league. If his numbers are comparable, he could be a good one, because his intensity is outstanding. He also has strength to hold at the point of attack, but I would prefer him on the right side.

Gaines Adams is a junior "Bandit" at Clemson. He has great listed size (6'5 260) and speed (4.5-ish) according to the school. He's also considered to be the best overall athlete on a talented Clemson defense. In the regular season, Adams recorded 44 tackles, 9.5 tackles for loss, and led the team in sacks (6.5) pressures (24) and pass defensed (7!) while rotating along the line. He shows an excellent closing burst and ability to play in space. He is a powerful tackler and is young enough to make even greater strides. I'd put him on the cusp of round one, and would compare him to Justin Tuck. I think he is more raw than most, but his ceiling is higher than Hali's. That seven passes defensed really stands out regarding his ability to both disrupt passing lanes and cover in zone plays.

thanx dude...

BroncoRT

11-27-2005, 08:45 PM

How many times have you seen Mario? Did you watch him yesterday? Surely you did not or you'd be singing a different tune. Lawson is good, but McCargo is not as great as you make him out to be. As for the double teams, he gets frequent double teams if you watch him constantly. He is the left end, so he often must fight off the tight end and right tackle. His speed off the edge for his size is quite uncanny. You haven't given this guy a fair shake, he's flat dominated several games this year, and he carried NC State into a bowl game with his performance yesterday, the single best one of a defensive lineman I've seen this year. Most scouts are already considering him the top end prospect, because he is a genetic freak. Kiper loves him too.

And on Wroten, you are misunderstanding the direction of the rush. A DT cannot collapse the pocket, it can only push it under normal rush condidtions, so even if he gets in the backfield, as Warren has done several times, the QB can just continue to fade back or roll out, and if you know anything about Wroten's athletic testing in the spring, he won't consistently run down QBs who roll out. All I'm saying is we get consistent push and inside disruption as it is, we need a guy off the edge to keep the QB from simply fading back or running away. If you want an example, look at what Burgess has done for Oakland's sack totals and pass rush. They had good push last season, but now with Burgess hurrying throws with speed or taking away deep dropbacks, Sapp and Tommy Kelly have started to turnaround and emerge respectively.

I was out golfing on Sat so I didn't see the game. I read that he had a great game with four sacks. Don't get me wrong I still think that Mario is good. He has the perfect frame for DE, but Kiwi just has a something special to him that I like. He just seems to play with great passion and energy. I would trade up for Kiwi, as for Mario I will wait and see.

OhNoKoolAid

11-28-2005, 12:49 PM

I was out golfing on Sat so I didn't see the game. I read that he had a great game with four sacks. Don't get me wrong I still think that Mario is good. He has the perfect frame for DE, but Kiwi just has a something special to him that I like. He just seems to play with great passion and energy. I would trade up for Kiwi, as for Mario I will wait and see.

That sounds fair. I think I misunderstood your original comments. In my opinion deciding between the two is similar to splitting hairs, the act can be rather pointless, they are both tremendous talents.

BroncoRT

11-28-2005, 04:10 PM

That sounds fair. I think I misunderstood your original comments. In my opinion deciding between the two is similar to splitting hairs, the act can be rather pointless, they are both tremendous talents.

Deciding between the two is splitting hairs. They are both physically gifted freaks of nature, it is the intangibles that will seperate the two and as of now I feel that Kiwi has a little edge in that. He seems to have more heart and energy, but things can change.

OhNoKoolAid

11-28-2005, 05:45 PM

Deciding between the two is splitting hairs. They are both physically gifted freaks of nature, it is the intangibles that will seperate the two and as of now I feel that Kiwi has a little edge in that. He seems to have more heart and energy, but things can change.

The freaks of nature part is what leads me to believe that if pass rusher is our goal, we trade up to get one. Williams still does take plays off on backside runs, but I believe that behavior is correctable. He'll only be 20 on draft day. Kiwi has the hustle and tenacity, and looks more polished, but I don't think he is as athletically and physically gifted as Williams. Williams potential in playing the run is far higher, while I think both are gifted pass rushers. But again, it is splitting hairs.

Mat'hir Uth Gan

11-28-2005, 07:27 PM

OhNoKoolAid

11-28-2005, 07:58 PM

I still firmly believe Kiwanuka is a RDE while Williams is a LDE.

All things being equal, a Power End that can pass rush (what Courtney Brown was supposed to be able to do but never did) has a higher value then a pure pass rushing RDE, even one with great size and speed.

Alot depends on who we lose and who we resign. If we don't keep Brown, and aren't impressed with Engleberger (and it appears we are not), then Williams would have the higher value.

If we let Pryce go and cut Ekuban (and really, even if we don't), Kiwanuka might have the higher value, but its usually easier to find speed rushers throughout the draft, but not so much with pass rushing Power Ends.

Basically, my opinion is that Mario Williams is worth trading up for, but Kiwanuka is not. Alot of that has to do with Dumervil, Edwards, Hali, and Adams.

A week or two ago you were not as high on Williams, so I assume you watched him play this weekend...

Regarding Brown, we still have a bit more season to get into, but for the scheme, Brown is really starting to come on. He looked like a beast on running plays against Dallas and has helped make the left side of the Denver defense one of the league's best against runs that direction. I think he is finally starting to round into shape as well, and he may really explode down the line as he gets closer to 100%. Obviously we cannot keep him at his current contract, but if he's willing to restructure, I'd love to bring him back into our rotation. This would also allow us to draft a pass rush specialist for passing downs, as Brown is close to elite in run defense. I wouldn't slam the door on him just yet, he's starting to glimmer...

One name I haven't brought up much is LaMarr Woodley, a Merriman-lite so to speak. His size suggests right end in 4-3, and he can get after the quarterback. Is he worth a late first look as well. I happen to think so, should he leave...

BroncoRT

11-28-2005, 08:13 PM

A week or two ago you were not as high on Williams, so I assume you watched him play this weekend...

Regarding Brown, we still have a bit more season to get into, but for the scheme, Brown is really starting to come on. He looked like a beast on running plays against Dallas and has helped make the left side of the Denver defense one of the league's best against runs that direction. I think he is finally starting to round into shape as well, and he may really explode down the line as he gets closer to 100%. Obviously we cannot keep him at his current contract, but if he's willing to restructure, I'd love to bring him back into our rotation. This would also allow us to draft a pass rush specialist for passing downs, as Brown is close to elite in run defense. I wouldn't slam the door on him just yet, he's starting to glimmer...

One name I haven't brought up much is LaMarr Woodley, a Merriman-lite so to speak. His size suggests right end in 4-3, and he can get after the quarterback. Is he worth a late first look as well. I happen to think so, should he leave...

If we don't trade up for either Kiwi or Mario, who do you want to draft? Do you still want DE? I still haven't seen Dumervil play so he could be interesting.

As for Brown he is getting better every week and I have a feeling if he continues to improve that Shanny will want to resign him first over Warren, Pryce and Ekuban. I have always liked Brown since Penn State and it is good to see him stay healthy and play well.

OhNoKoolAid

11-28-2005, 08:54 PM

If we don't trade up for either Kiwi or Mario, who do you want to draft? Do you still want DE? I still haven't seen Dumervil play so he could be interesting.

As for Brown he is getting better every week and I have a feeling if he continues to improve that Shanny will want to resign him first over Warren, Pryce and Ekuban. I have always liked Brown since Penn State and it is good to see him stay healthy and play well.

If we don't trade up for Williams or Kiwanuka, I could go a number of different directions. Depending on what we do in free agency, I would still like to target end, with Edwards and Adams being the target in the late twenties. I think we have to get one potential edge rusher somewhere early. With the Washington pick, I would prefer to go best available at certain positions. Wide receiver may not have a talent this high, so I would narrow this to offensive and defensive tackle, and possibly safety if Bing is available and grades out high. I'm torn at tackle with all of the under and overachievers that the position may be too much a gamble in the mid-teens. So then I look offensive tackle, targeting either McNeill, Winston or Justice. A long shot would be Vernon Davis, TE of Maryland, but that is one of those positions I hate drafting in round one. Assuming McNeill is off the board, I may draft the first day something like this:

1 Wash: Winston Justice, OT, USC (reminds me of Chris Samuels)
1 Den: Gaines Adams, DE, Clemson (up-and comer who fits the system, similar to Hayward)
2 Den: Will Blackmon, WR/KR, Boston College (superb athlete with raw talent at receiver, not tall, but has good bulk, ala Chambers)
3 Wash: Orien Harris, DT, Miami (probably underrating him in round three, but shows good potential at nose)
3 Den: Nick Mangold, C, Ohio State (also probably low for him, but would be a good understudy for Nalen, Hamilton may be too valuable to move)

That is rather raw and somewhat unresearched, but if placed on the spot, I could live with this. Safety, backup QB, line depth all could be handled on day two.

WABronco

11-28-2005, 09:00 PM

If we don't trade up for Williams or Kiwanuka, I could go a number of different directions. Depending on what we do in free agency, I would still like to target end, with Edwards and Adams being the target in the late twenties. I think we have to get one potential edge rusher somewhere early. With the Washington pick, I would prefer to go best available at certain positions. Wide receiver may not have a talent this high, so I would narrow this to offensive and defensive tackle, and possibly safety if Bing is available and grades out high. I'm torn at tackle with all of the under and overachievers that the position may be too much a gamble in the mid-teens. So then I look offensive tackle, targeting either McNeill, Winston or Justice. A long shot would be Vernon Davis, TE of Maryland, but that is one of those positions I hate drafting in round one. Assuming McNeill is off the board, I may draft the first day something like this:

1 Wash: Winston Justice, OT, USC (reminds me of Chris Samuels)
1 Den: Gaines Adams, DE, Clemson (up-and comer who fits the system, similar to Hayward)
2 Den: Will Blackmon, WR/KR, Boston College (superb athlete with raw talent at receiver, not tall, but has good bulk, ala Chambers)
3 Wash: Orien Harris, DT, Miami (probably underrating him in round three, but shows good potential at nose)
3 Den: Nick Mangold, C, Ohio State (also probably low for him, but would be a good understudy for Nalen, Hamilton may be too valuable to move)

That is rather raw and somewhat unresearched, but if placed on the spot, I could live with this. Safety, backup QB, line depth all could be handled on day two.

OMG, I think I would literally puke, in a good way, if that's how our draft ended up. I'd love to get Orien Harris, outside of the first of course...

OhNoKoolAid

11-28-2005, 09:33 PM

OMG, I think I would literally puke, in a good way, if that's how our draft ended up. I'd love to get Orien Harris, outside of the first of course...

Harris is a tough one to project, because some games he looks like an All American, while others he wouldn't crack all state. The last two years he has started slow and finished strong, enough that his stock should be downgraded. Jolly of A&M is another one I considered, but he's closer to second round material than Harris, the way he has been playing. Mangold is another wild card, with center being up in arms. I debated between him and Setterstrom of Minnesota, who could be a third rounder, but possibly higher than Denver's pick. It is really just guesswork, but I think the values are somewhat reasonable.

jletourneau

11-28-2005, 10:25 PM

I could live with Blackmon in round 2, however, I would prefer to see Denver look to grab Chad Jackson, Martin Nance or Hank Baskett late first or possibly 2nd with Nance and Baskett.

Baskett fits the mold somewhat of what Shanny seems to value at WR, and Jackson it really depends on whether or not he comes out early. Jackson has so much raw talent, and seems to be to be above the "system WR" mold that usually comes out of Florida. Jackson's potential to me seems like a cross somewhere between a Nate Burleson and Chad Johnson.

The line positions should be really interesting and will depend largely on who we elect to keep between Warren, Pryce, Brown and Lepsis.

Of course it would be great to trade up for either Williams or Kiwanuka, I find myself and my preference going back and forth between the two. I wouldn't mind Ray Edwards, not huge on Tamba Hali for the Broncos specifically, and am intrigued by Elvis Dumervil as a playmaker, and situational pass rusher.

Though, with all the talk of WR, OT, DL and S, I would still tend to want to wait and see what kind of pick the Redskins' freefall of late nets us, and if D. Williams or Maroney fall into our laps. If that were to happen, despite the success of our "scheme" with late rounders and talent already here, I think there would be tremendous value getting a guy we could plan on plugging in the RB hole for a number of years to come and using a guy like Tatum then for trade bait as we did last year with Droughns, and Bell should net even more than Droughns did.

One way or another, I believe the Broncos need to use one of their first rounders, if not both as a package, to get the natural playmaker they often lack on offense or the defensive front.

Kiwi, Williams, Dumervil, D. Williams, Maroney, C. Jackson, D. Bing, etc. I believe those are a few of the guys possibly in reach through various scenarios who could give us that playmaking spark on either side of the ball.