“….December 7, 1941 - a date which will live in imfamy….” --- F.D.R.

[AZ Snake Fan]

--- U.S. Navy Captain Ouimette is the Executive Officer at Naval Air Station, Pensacola, Florida ---
--- Here is a copy of the speech he gave last month ---
--- It is an accurate account of why we are in so much trouble today and why this action is so necessary ---

AMERICA NEEDS TO WAKE UP !!!

That's what we think we heard on the 11th of September 2001 (When more than 3,000 Americans were killed) and maybe it was, but I think it should have been "Get Out of Bed!" In fact, I think the alarm clock has been buzzing since 1979 and we have continued to hit the snooze button and roll over for a few more minutes of peaceful sleep since then.

It was a cool fall day in November 1979 in a country going through a religious and political upheaval when a group of Iranian students attacked and seized the American Embassy in Tehran. This seizure was an outright attack on American soil; it was an attack that held the world's most powerful country hostage, and paralyzed a Presidency. The attack on this sovereign U. S. embassy set the stage for events to follow for the next 25 years.

America was still reeling from the aftermath of the Vietnam experience and had a serious threat from the Soviet Union when then, President Carter, had to do something. He chose to conduct a clandestine raid in the desert. The ill-fated mission ended in ruin, but stood as a symbol of America 's inability to deal with terrorism. America's military had been decimated and down sized/right sized since the end of the Vietnam War. A poorly trained, poorly equipped and poorly organized military was called on to execute a complex mission that was doomed from the start.

Shortly after the Tehran experience, Americans began to be kidnapped and killed throughout the Middle East. America could do little to protect her citizens living and working abroad. The attacks against US soil continued.

In April of 1983 a large vehicle packed with high explosives was driven into the US Embassy compound in Beirut. When it explodes, it kills 63 people. The alarm went off again and America hit the Snooze Button once more.

Then just six short months later in 1983 a large truck heavily laden down with over 2500 pounds of TNT smashed through the main gate of the US Marine Corps headquarters in Beirut and 241 US servicemen were killed. America mourns her dead and hit the Snooze Button once more.

Two months later in December 1983, another truck loaded with explosives is driven into the US Embassy in Kuwait , and America continues her slumber.

The following year, in September 1984, another van was driven into the gate of the US Embassy in Beirut and America slept. Soon the terrorism spreads to Europe.

In April 1985 a bomb explodes in a restaurant frequented by US soldiers in Madrid.

Then in August 1985 a Volkswagen loaded with explosives is driven into the main gate of the US Air Force Base at Rhein-Main Germany, 22 are killed and the snooze alarm is buzzing louder and louder as US interests are continually attacked.

Fifty-nine days later in 1985 a cruise ship, the Achille Lauro is hijacked and we watched as an American in a wheelchair is singled out of the passenger list and executed.

The terrorists then shift their tactics to bombing civilian airliners when they bomb TWA Flight 840 in April of 1986 that killed 4 and the most tragic bombing, Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland in 1988, killing 259.

Clinton treated these terrorist acts as crimes; in fact we are still trying to bring these people to trial. These are acts of war!

The wake up alarm is getting louder and louder.

The terrorists decide to bring the fight to America. In January 1993, two CIA agents are shot and killed as they enter CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia.

The following month, February 1993, a group of terrorists are arrested after a rented van packed with explosives is driven into the underground parking garage of the World Trade Center in New York City. Six people are killed and over 1000 are injured. Still this is a crime and not an act of war? The Snooze alarm is depressed again.

Then in November 1995 a car bomb explodes at a US military complex in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia killing seven service men and women.

A few months later in June of 1996, another truck bomb explodes only 35 yards from the US military compound in Dhahran , Saudi Arabia. It destroys the Khobar Towers, a US Air Force barracks, killing 19 and injuring over 500. The terrorists are getting braver and smarter as they see that America does not respond decisively.

They move to coordinate their attacks in a simultaneous attack on two US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania .. These attacks were planned with precision. They kill 224. America responds with cruise missile attacks and goes back to sleep.

The USS Cole was docked in the port of Aden, Yemen for refueling on 12 October 2000, when a small craft pulled along side the ship and exploded killing 17 US Navy Sailors. Attacking a US War Ship is an act of war, but we sent the FBI to investigate the crime and went back to sleep.

And of course you know the events of 11 September 2001. Most Americans think this was the first attack against US soil or in America. How wrong they are. America has been under a constant attack since 1979 and we chose to hit the snooze alarm and roll over and go back to sleep.

In the news lately we have seen lots of finger pointing from every high officials in government over what they knew and what they didn't know. But if you've read the papers and paid a little attention I think you can see exactly what they knew. You don't have to be in the FBI or CIA or on the National Security Council to see the pattern that has been developing since 1979.

The President is right on when he says we are engaged in a war. I think we have been in a war for the past 25 years and it will continue until we as a people decide enough is enough. America needs to "Get out of Bed" and act decisively now. America has been changed forever.. We have to be ready to pay the price and make the sacrifice to ensure our way of life continues. We cannot afford to keep hitting the snooze button again and again and roll over and go back to sleep.

After the attack on Pearl Harbor, Admiral Yamamoto said "... it seems all we have done is awakened a sleeping giant." This is the message we need to disseminate to terrorists around the world.

Support our troops and support President Bush for having the courage, political or militarily, to address what so many who preceded him didn't have the backbone to do both Democrat and Republican. This is not a political thing to be hashed over in an election year, this is an AMERICAN thing. This is about our Freedom and the Freedom of our children in years to come.

[watchthemiddle]

Thanks for that find and for bringing up December 7th. I am sure most on here , myself included, were not even born when Pearl Harbor happened, but we were surely alive when 9/11 happened.

Some might say this war is for nothing, or for oil, or for ego purposes, but the minute we as Americans hit the snooze button again, something else will happen.

[JWinn]

Thanks for that find and for bringing up December 7th. I am sure most on here , myself included, were not even born when Pearl Harbor happened, but we were surely alive when 9/11 happened.

Some might say this war is for nothing, or for oil, or for ego purposes, but the minute we as Americans hit the snooze button again, something else will happen.

No doubt.

I was never sure of this war when it got started.

Then I went to Hawaii! I took the tour of the Arizona Memorial. Stood on the bow of the USS Missouri and gazed at the memorial and thought about current events. Saw that ship lying on the bottom. Read all the names. Most of whom are STILL there! Smelled the oil driting to the surface.

Things are different today. There is no clear enemy like there was in 1941. But the threat is still real, and the damage is just as great. We ARE under attack. Our very survival is on the line, make no mistake. There are those who want us dead. Every one of us.

If we continue to ignore this, we stand to lose everything. Our enemies will not just go away because we pay them off. They will continue to kill our people, attack our ships, and bring down our buildings.

They have become smarter, while we have become more complacent.

They have learned to use small groups to cause their damage, while we have learned to question everything our government does.

They will not stop, while we will not wake up and realize this fact.

President Bush isnt perfect. He screws up plenty. But he's right to persue our enemies, and enemies they are. He's right to continue the fight. To spread FREEDOM where he can. IT'S WHAT WE STAND FOR! IT'S WHO WE ARE!

If you doubt that, take a look at our flag. Ask yourself what it means to you.

To me it means FREEDOM!

To them it means oppresion, and honestly, I can understand that. America is not perfect either. Maybe we do stick our noses where it doesnt belong. But we dont MURDER people. We DONT kill busses full of innocent children! We DONT strap bombs around OUR childrens waists, and send them into shopping malls!

We do a lot of bad things. Plenty of people have a reason not to like us. But we dont go public and state we want to destroy an entire people, simply because of who they are.

I support the President in this war!

"Keep going George!"

[chickennob2]

Yes, terrorist attacks have been an issue for years. They were prosecuted as crimes, and that is exactly what they are! If I go to Mexico and blow up a government building, that is a crime. That is my decision, my independent action. That is not an act of war! War is a fight between the armed forces of two or more independent sovereign states or states seeking their independent sovereignty. That is not what we are doing. Individuals are committing criminal acts that result in the death of many innocent people. The Oklahoma City bombing was not considered an act of war. Were the perpetrator of that crime a Swedish citizen who had come here for the sole purpose of committing that crime, we would not start a war with Sweden. Now yes, perhaps there are many more people in Sweden with a similar ideology who might commit similar crimes against Americans, but does that mean we can go into Sweden, destroy their government and replace it with our own, fighting from town to town against loyal Swedes defending their homeland from foreign invaders? Afghanistan did not attack us on September 11th, a select few individuals did. Iraq did not attack us on September 11th. In any way, shape, or form.

Yes terrorism is a problem, but terrorism is an ideology. You cannot fight an ideology with guns. You cannot fight an ideology by removing one government and replacing it with another. Terrorism is an ideology of hatred. What could anyone possibly do to incite more hatred than to send armed forces into your country, killing your loyal countrymen who fight for their freedom? Perhaps you don't like France. You may even hate France. Some Americans may hate France enough that they would want to sabotage buildings in France, and in fact, some people do do this. France doesn't like that. And I guarantee you, if France invaded America, sent foot soldiers through your hometown, you would get up in arms and fight. That indifference or slight aversion to France would be all out hatred. You would do anything you could to hurt France. The isolated hatred of a few individuals will only grow and multiply by the use of armed forces to invade your country.

If there is a terrorist training camp in Iraq, fine, go and invade that camp and destroy it. If there is a violent cult in say… Topeka Kansas, the SWAT team would infiltrate the compound and eliminate the threat. That is fine. Individuals committing crimes and gathering in compounds to plan and carry out those crimes. Fine. Take em down. But to invade the entire state of Kansas, or even the county in which Topeka is located because there are some in Topeka who would commit crimes against you is absurd. All that it can do is breed more contempt and create more criminals. To destroy a cancer, you excise the tumor, not flood the body with arsenic. It is the same with terrorism. You can achieve nothing by invading a country and replacing its government, as it is individuals, not an entire country that is the problem. Removing a weed by burning a field accomplishes nothing. If you want to accurately remove the individuals responsible for the problem, that will be difficult, but is the only course of action. To enact sweeping measures to solve an isolated problem will always do more harm than good.



You know what, you are right. America needs to wake up. We were emotionally weak after 9/11. We were told there was a connection between Iraq and 9/11. We were told Iraq had "WMDs" and was threatening to use them against us. Alright then, we trust you, let's do this. But wait, there is no connection. There are no WMDs. Oh yes, but we are liberating the Iraqis. We're fighting the war on terror and we're liberating the Iraqis. War on terror, but I thought that the 9/11 commission said that they found no "collaborative relationship" between Iraq and al Qaeda. Yeah, but there are now new terrorists. See? Look how they are attacking our troops. Yes, but our troops are invading their country, challenging their freedom and removing their government. That's not terrorism, that is defending ones country. No, trust me, they are still terrorists… And we're fighting for freedom. Freedom. That’s the big American thing right? Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. Freedom. GO USA, right? But we are removing their government and establishing a puppet government under out control in the way that we see fit. There is no liberty there. Life? we are killing their innocent civilians, their civilians fighting to defend their country from foreign invaders. Happiness? I would be very happy when my father and uncle are shot by American soldiers and my home is destroyed. Well, but that’s just collateral damage. This is a war. Those things happen. They will be better off when they are under a government that we set up by the way that we see fit. Trust me.

It is time for America to wake up. We have been spoon fed this crock and bull story by the administration and thus far we have accepted it (51%, that’s a mandate, right? That’s everybody). Meanwhile Halliburton is making untold amounts of money with reconstruction contracts. And that is just the beginning. We have no idea the extent to which this type of corruption exists. Yet we sit by and do nothing. It is time for America to wake up. It is time we realize the truth. It is time we think for ourselves.


"Go To Hell George!"

[JWinn]

Just one real difference Nob.

I quoted someone who fought for America 63 years ago.

You quoted someone trying to kill it today.

It's a war to them. I am really suprised you dont know that.

[chickennob2]

Just one real difference Nob.

I quoted someone who fought for America 63 years ago.

You quoted someone trying to kill it today.

It's a war to them. I am really suprised you dont know that.

First off, I thought it was AZ Snake Fan who did the quoting...
your post seemed more like your personal thinking

Someone trying to kill America? If by kill you mean kill the unthinking acceptance of spoonfed hypocrisy from the current administration, then yes, i guess thats true. But My entire post was about America opening its eyes and taking a rational approach to eliminating terrorism rather than a shotgun in the dark approach. I dont see any killing of america there.

As to "It's a war to them. I am really suprised you dont know that.", im not sure what you mean. Yes i realize that it is a war to the Bush administration. To the americans with extended tours of duty, i realize it is also a war. What im sayign is that making it a war was a mistake.



And did you even read my post, or did you just look at the size 6 letters and assume you knew what i was going to say?

[JWinn]

First off, I thought it was AZ Snake Fan who did the quoting...
your post seemed more like your personal thinking

Someone trying to kill America? If by kill you mean kill the unthinking acceptance of spoonfed hypocrisy from the current administration, then yes, i guess thats true. But My entire post was about America opening its eyes and taking a rational approach to eliminating terrorism rather than a shotgun in the dark approach. I dont see any killing of america there.

As to "It's a war to them. I am really suprised you dont know that.", im not sure what you mean. Yes i realize that it is a war to the Bush administration. To the americans with extended tours of duty, i realize it is also a war. What im sayign is that making it a war was a mistake.



And did you even read my post, or did you just look at the size 6 letters and assume you knew what i was going to say?


Yup, I read your post. And mine was my personal thinking. I dont think yours was.

You missed my point. I wasnt talking about our administration. I was talking about the people who hold up signs pretty much saying what you quoted. The people who have done nothing but kill innocent people for longer than I have been alive. The people who claim Jihad, which isnt an American term.

Again, I dont think our country is perfect. And certianly our admintistration has it's faults. But we didnt start this! Certianly George Bush didnt start this. Az's incidents only go back so far. This started long before even George's father was in office.

As far as I can see here, your on an anti Bush crusade, so nothing he does will ever please you. Your hatred for him blinds you to anything else. I cant blame you for that. Your generation tends to be all or nothing.

On the flip side, Az doesnt appear to see anything wrong with Bush. Nothing he does will ever change his opinion. Maybe he's blinded by a sense of patriotisim, but honestly, that tends to happen when youve been in the service. And his & my generation also tend to be all or nothing.

The question is which one is all, and which one is nothing. Your experiences dictate that. Obviously, they are quite different.

There is a middle ground. There are two sides to every story. I'll leave you and Az to fight it out...............

I've got more important things to do. The new Bronco card should be out! ;)

[muse]

Thank you chickennob, I enjoyed that post. Stop. Think a minute. Do you really think America is being attacked and hated by terrorists just because they happen to be big and powerful? Have you never thought that the US is the target of terrorists attacks because their foreign policy has shown no respect for other countries, their customs etc?

Pearl Harbour is a hugely different context to terrorism. Pearl Harbour was attacked because the Americans did what was right, ie try to stop the Japanese war machine which was pillaging China. And the 7th December should be a day as grievance, mourning and remembrance.

11/9 (yes, 9/11 is wrong to me), however, should be remembered as a day of inevitability. I saw a terrorist attack on the US coming a mile off and I was 13 at the time. Something was going to happen sooner or later...granted, I was shocked by the method, but in retrospect it was a matter when, not if. And the thing which has ****ed me off more than anything since 11/9 has to be the utter dishonesty of the US government. They lie. Constantly. About terrorism. We had a lecture the other day given by Clive Stafford-Smith who used to go to my school. Awesome lecture. He talked about Guantanamo Bay which really highlighted how crooked the administration has become and all just to frighten the US population against terrorists because that way, they will get their way. The Bush administration scares me like hell. The utter corruption of mind. And you should be more scared of them than of the terrorists because, quite simply, the administration is more dangerous than al-Qaeda.

America has continued to destabilise the world. Through the cold war, foreign policy aggravated people. The US installed dictators such as Saddam Hussain. Hey, it doesn't take a genius to work out he was pretty annoyed that the US sold weapons to Iraq and Iran to fight each other. Things like that happen to irritate people. And through Islam, many people have found a pathway to attack Christian countries such as the US (moreso the US because it's fundamentalist, calvinist roots and all that). The Jihad has given them a way to attack America through remorse. Islam has wrongly felt this backlash and there is a currently an anit-muslim feeling around further exacerbated by the seeming refusal of the US to admit that terrorism against the US has been propagated by them and no one else.

So...please, think about your next ballot. War is never the answer...another hardline, dishonest government may well destroy the US as we know it. Think about it before you vote.

[BearsBronco Fan]

9/11 and Pearl Harbor victims will always be rembered even 100 years from now.


Long Live The United States of america I am proud to be american

[AZ Snake Fan]

--- F-18s will be flying over Pearl Harbor today to honor those who perished ---

--- 2400 souls were lost that day ---

--- 1500 U.S. Navy personnel still remain in thier watery grave aboard the USS Arizona beneath the surface of Pearl Harbor ---

--- FDR said it would be a day of infamy ---

--- how many of us have forgotten ? ---

--- that was 7 December 1941 ---

--- 11 September 2001 was only 4 years ago ---

--- over 3000 souls were lost that day ---

--- how many of us have forgotten ?

--- my Flag is flying on my house today ---

[LDB]

To those who argue that extremism has been strengthened by the actions of our Coalition in Iraq, we must remember that we were not in Iraq on September 11, 2001. The radicals' hatred existed before Iraq was an issue, and it will exist after Iraq is an excuse. The government of Russia did not support Operation Iraqi Freedom, and yet the Islamic militants killed more than 180 Russian schoolchildren in Beslan.

Do you honestly believe that the radical Islamists will cease their war on us if we withdraw from the middle-east?

No, they seek to end our presence in the middle-east so that they can take control and as they once did in Afghanistan and are trying to do now in Iraq – to have a base from which to launch attacks and conduct their war against non-radical Muslim governments. The militants believe that controlling one country will rally the Muslim masses, enabling them to overthrow moderate governments in the Middle East and establish a radical Islamic empire that spreads from Spain to Indonesia.

The radicals exploit local conflicts to build a culture of victimization, exploit resentful and disillusioned young men and women, and use modern technology to multiply their destructive power. Which is really interesting because a lot of the U.S. sympathizers within our own borders seem to fit this mold.

Islamic Radical leaders have endless ambitions of imperial domination, and they wish to make everyone powerless except themselves. While promising a future of justice and holiness, the terrorists are preparing a future of oppression and misery - banning dissent and books, brutalizing women, and controlling every aspect of life. A prime example of this is Saddam Hussein. If the U.S. pulls out, not only will another Hussein come into power, but most likely it will be a man like Hussein but with more ties to terror. The terrorists will have another base to train, plan, and gain money to make war on any and all who do not share their religious beliefs. Read the Qu’ran and see what their “holy” book says about peace with infidels.

By fearing freedom, distrusting human creativity, punishing change, and limiting the contributions of half the population, this ideology declares war on the idea of progress itself. The only thing modern about the militants' vision is the weapons they seek to use. The outcome of this war is not in doubt - those who despise freedom and progress have condemned themselves to isolation, decline, and collapse. Because free people believe in the future, they will own the future. I have served in the Middle East. I have had friends and family of friends give their lives in this war. They have given their lives to make the world a better place and so that terror may stay away from our shores. They have given their lives for our safety and to help the oppressed that cannot stand by themselves. I salute them.

I do not agree with all that this administration is doing. They have made mistakes. But I do not blindly believe all that the far-left nutjobs say about it either. I support the administration. They are being proactive, because we have learned that reactive does not work against terrorism. They are doing what must be done, despite the propaganda thrown against them, to keep my family safe.

[Mount-n-Groan]

Yes, terrorist attacks have been an issue for years. They were prosecuted as crimes, and that is exactly what they are! If I go to Mexico and blow up a government building, that is a crime. That is my decision, my independent action. That is not an act of war! War is a fight between the armed forces of two or more independent sovereign states or states seeking their independent sovereignty. That is not what we are doing. Individuals are committing criminal acts that result in the death of many innocent people. The Oklahoma City bombing was not considered an act of war. Were the perpetrator of that crime a Swedish citizen who had come here for the sole purpose of committing that crime, we would not start a war with Sweden. Now yes, perhaps there are many more people in Sweden with a similar ideology who might commit similar crimes against Americans, but does that mean we can go into Sweden, destroy their government and replace it with our own, fighting from town to town against loyal Swedes defending their homeland from foreign invaders? Afghanistan did not attack us on September 11th, a select few individuals did. Iraq did not attack us on September 11th. In any way, shape, or form.

Yes terrorism is a problem, but terrorism is an ideology. You cannot fight an ideology with guns. You cannot fight an ideology by removing one government and replacing it with another. Terrorism is an ideology of hatred. What could anyone possibly do to incite more hatred than to send armed forces into your country, killing your loyal countrymen who fight for their freedom? Perhaps you don't like France. You may even hate France. Some Americans may hate France enough that they would want to sabotage buildings in France, and in fact, some people do do this. France doesn't like that. And I guarantee you, if France invaded America, sent foot soldiers through your hometown, you would get up in arms and fight. That indifference or slight aversion to France would be all out hatred. You would do anything you could to hurt France. The isolated hatred of a few individuals will only grow and multiply by the use of armed forces to invade your country.

If there is a terrorist training camp in Iraq, fine, go and invade that camp and destroy it. If there is a violent cult in say… Topeka Kansas, the SWAT team would infiltrate the compound and eliminate the threat. That is fine. Individuals committing crimes and gathering in compounds to plan and carry out those crimes. Fine. Take em down. But to invade the entire state of Kansas, or even the county in which Topeka is located because there are some in Topeka who would commit crimes against you is absurd. All that it can do is breed more contempt and create more criminals. To destroy a cancer, you excise the tumor, not flood the body with arsenic. It is the same with terrorism. You can achieve nothing by invading a country and replacing its government, as it is individuals, not an entire country that is the problem. Removing a weed by burning a field accomplishes nothing. If you want to accurately remove the individuals responsible for the problem, that will be difficult, but is the only course of action. To enact sweeping measures to solve an isolated problem will always do more harm than good.



You know what, you are right. America needs to wake up. We were emotionally weak after 9/11. We were told there was a connection between Iraq and 9/11. We were told Iraq had "WMDs" and was threatening to use them against us. Alright then, we trust you, let's do this. But wait, there is no connection. There are no WMDs. Oh yes, but we are liberating the Iraqis. We're fighting the war on terror and we're liberating the Iraqis. War on terror, but I thought that the 9/11 commission said that they found no "collaborative relationship" between Iraq and al Qaeda. Yeah, but there are now new terrorists. See? Look how they are attacking our troops. Yes, but our troops are invading their country, challenging their freedom and removing their government. That's not terrorism, that is defending ones country. No, trust me, they are still terrorists… And we're fighting for freedom. Freedom. That’s the big American thing right? Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. Freedom. GO USA, right? But we are removing their government and establishing a puppet government under out control in the way that we see fit. There is no liberty there. Life? we are killing their innocent civilians, their civilians fighting to defend their country from foreign invaders. Happiness? I would be very happy when my father and uncle are shot by American soldiers and my home is destroyed. Well, but that’s just collateral damage. This is a war. Those things happen. They will be better off when they are under a government that we set up by the way that we see fit. Trust me.

It is time for America to wake up. We have been spoon fed this crock and bull story by the administration and thus far we have accepted it (51%, that’s a mandate, right? That’s everybody). Meanwhile Halliburton is making untold amounts of money with reconstruction contracts. And that is just the beginning. We have no idea the extent to which this type of corruption exists. Yet we sit by and do nothing. It is time for America to wake up. It is time we realize the truth. It is time we think for ourselves.


"Go To Hell George!"

I wouldn't have thought that you believed in hell. :confused:

Seriously, you said "It is time we think for ourselves."

So, what's your solution?

[WyoBroncoMan]

So...please, think about your next ballot. War is never the answer...another hardline, dishonest government may well destroy the US as we know it. Think about it before you vote.


You're right.

Except for ending slavery, fascism, nazism, and communism...
War has never solved anything.

[muse]

Hmm:

Modern-day slaves can be found laboring as servants or concubines in Sudan, as child "carpet slaves" in India, or as cane-cutters in Haiti and southern Pakistan, to name but a few instances

The British National Party is fielding a record 118 candidates in the general election

Neo-Nazi Skinheads can generally be recognized by their shaven heads and the Nazi symbols they wear on their clothing and have tattooed on their skin. Their threatening style of dress is just one way in which they express their violent hatred of Blacks, Jews, gays, and other minority groups. In recent years, Skinheads have become a dangerous force in cities across the United States and Europe. In the U.S., neo-Nazi Skinheads have been responsible for up to 45 murders during the last two decades. Some even dream of starting a race war in this country.

Communist Party of Great Britain: After the defeats of the 20th century, we have seen a process of disintegration of proletarian politics. Genuine Marxists must engage in a process of recomposition. Above all, the left needs a rigorous approach to theory, an attempt to rearticulate communism as a viable alternative to a global capitalism in terminal decline. We call on all serious partisans of the working class to join us in this work

Sorry, I don't see anything "solved". Minimised, but never solved.

[AZ Snake Fan]

--- RIGHT ON LDB !!! ---

--- "Islamic Radical leaders have endless ambitions of imperial domination" --- LDB

--- i would like to add more fuel to your fire !

--- al-Qaida Plan ---

--- al-Qaida has a master plan to take over the world and turn it into an Islamic state - by the year 2020 ---

--- Wishful thinking? --- Not in the minds of the top terrorist lieutenants interviewed by Jordanian journalist Fouad Hussein for a new book --- including Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, mastermind of many atrocities in Iraq ---

--- The plan, which is revealed for the first time in the Australian publication The Age, has seven phases: ---

--- Phase 1: The "awakening" in the consciousness of Muslims around the world following the 9/11 attacks, which were aimed at provoking the U.S. into declaring war on the Islamic world and mobilizing Islamic radicals ---

--- Phase 2: "Opening eyes," the current period, which should last until 2006. Hussein said the terrorists hope to make the "Western conspiracy" aware of the "Islamic community" as al-Qaida continues to form its secret battalions ---

--- Phase 3: "Arising and standing up," which should last until 2010 and bring increasingly frequent attacks against secular Turkey and archenemy Israel ---

--- Phase 4: Lasting until 2013, this phase will see the fall of hated Arab regimes, including Saudi Arabia and Jordan --- Oil suppliers will be attacked and the U.S. economy will be targeted with cyber terrorism ---

--- Phase 5: An Islamic state, or caliphate, can be declared between 2013 and 2016 ---

--- Phase 6: "Total confrontation," beginning in 2016, will see the Islamic army begin the "fight between the believers and the non-believers" that has been predicted by Osama bin Laden ---

--- Phase 7: "Definitive victory." ---

--- Hussein writes that this phase should be completed by 2020, and that the terrorists believe the caliphate will prove victorious because the rest of the world will be beaten down by an army of "one and a half billion Muslims."

--- what astounds me is the amazing correlation of dates to the Prophecy of The Tribulation !!!

[WyoBroncoMan]

Hmm:









Sorry, I don't see anything "solved". Minimised, but never solved.


And your solution is? :confused:

[silver_black]

its funny to hear some people actually think that the hatred in the Middle East and within Islam was brought about by the US.

i'd be curious to know the responses on the roots of Jihad. those that are defending their actions, that we deserve so-called retaliation, and the "we had this coming" attitude.

Islamic fundamentalism's purpose is to replace the Judeo-Christian world order with an Islamic world order. everyone needs to understand the enormity of the threat we face and why.

back on topic:

thank you LDB, AZ Snake Fan, and all those who have served and continue to serve this country.

my flag is up today :beer:

[alan]

Right on SB we should realise that there are some idiots in the middle east who think its america and the west in genereal are too blame for their problems


we need to all stand up let them know that their **** is going to stick up.were not going to let terrorists do what they want for some crap excuse

[muse]

its funny to hear some people actually think that the hatred in the Middle East and within Islam was brought about by the US.


I said that US actions seem to propagate and exacerbate this, not to start it.


i'd be curious to know the responses on the roots of Jihad. those that are defending their actions, that we deserve so-called retaliation, and the "we had this coming" attitude.

I'm not defending their actions at all. I don't advocate violence in any way. I'm just saying that the US was going to be attacked sooner or later for the foreign policy over the last half decade or so. The US would be much better placed now if they had actually found an efficient way of dealing with foreign issues rather than force/underhand methods (such as the "He's a bastard, but he's our bastard" reference to Ngo Dien Diem: the thoroughly unpleasant and corrupt South Vietnamese dictator in 1963 who was kept around and supported by the US because he was a so called "democrat").


Islamic fundamentalism's purpose is to replace the Judeo-Christian world order with an Islamic world order. everyone needs to understand the enormity of the threat we face and why.

Yes...but surely US actions in the Middle East are just helping them recruit people to the radical Muslim cause? Take Iraq: the troops come over and free the country from a terrible dictator. Good so far. But, as we know well...the US army hasn't got a clue on peacekeeping. And, well, in Iraq. Sorry people, no chance. It's hard enough to keep control of Iraq with a competent peacekeeping force. Not only to Saddam's supporters attack the coalition troops, they recruit the disillusioned and those with grievances against the US. And when Private A. Nonymous shoots little Timmy accidentally as he's walking down the street, it doesn't look too good, does it? The US forces continue to exacerbate and drum up support for the other side. And when you have a fundamentalist, calvinist idiot president who seems to have a religious agenda, well, it gives the terrorists fuel to recruit and fight, as well as, in their minds, justifying their actions.

Almost every religion has its nutters and radicals. You can't stamp this out, no offence, but religion is so easy to bend to however you want it to mean, especially when you're in the right position (Pope Urban II anyone? Actually, the Papacy in general from about the 8th Century until the Catholic reformation). You can minimise it though, and the US is going waaaaay the opposite by showing utter contempt for the people of other countries. Since 11/9 and the invasion of Afghanistan, this administration has continued to destabilise the western world internally and externally, through fear inside the US (and to a certain extent in Europe) and downright dishonesty outside. I know I'm looking at this from the idealist viewpoint, so nothing will ever be quite right because it's not in human nature. But even a small step in the right direction would make me feel a little safer about the integrity of Earth's community.

[bcbronc]

[QUOTE]its funny to hear some people actually think that the hatred in the Middle East and within Islam was brought about by the US.

i'd be curious to know the responses on the roots of Jihad. those that are defending their actions, that we deserve so-called retaliation, and the "we had this coming" attitude.

Islamic fundamentalism's purpose is to replace the Judeo-Christian world order with an Islamic world order. everyone needs to understand the enormity of the threat we face and why.

what is even more funny is to hear some peple actually think the US is completely devoid of blame for the current situation in the middle east. i have posted previously some of the roots of jihad and i will briefly touch on them again (if you want more detail, just search my posts). in 1953 the CIA removed a DEMOCTATICALLY ELECTED president in iran and replaced him with a shah who brutalized and tortured the iranian people (with the full support and training of the US government) for 25 years. for some reason the iranian people did not like this and started to resent the americans that propped up their dictator. this resentment was then used by ayhatollah hussein to overthrow the shah and establish the FIRST fundamentalist islamic regime, which all since have been based on. do some research. i understand it is hard for people who grew up having the american propaganda shoved down their throats with their apple pie to believe, but the US is ONE (not the only) of the major reasons that the warped fundamentalist interpretation of islam was able to get a foothold in the middle east.

also, it is so ethnocentric to say we have a current 'judeo-christian world order' when there is more non-christians on the planet than christians. and people have to stop thinking muslim=terrorist. while i have no stats to back this claim, i am confident in saying that the terrorists make up less than 1% of the world's muslim population.


back on topic:

thank you LDB, AZ Snake Fan, and all those who have served and continue to serve this country.

my flag is up today :beer:


as to the people that have served in the military, how can you blindly accept a war (the invasion of iraq portion) that is based on lies and deciet? it is one thing to lay down one's life for their country or for a noble cause, but it is another altogether to be slain over what amounts to a pile of BS.

[silver_black]

what amounts to a pile of BS.
hmm i just surmised your post to one sentence.

you'll have to go back more than 50 years for the roots of Jihad. try 4000.

and for the record i did not say Muslims=Terrorism, nice spin though. i said hatred is rooted in Jihad and Islam. its part of what each was established on. to deny that is ignorance.

also this "devoid" of blame is baseless as-well. no doubt the US had a hand, along with Britain as-well with the current situation.

[watchthemiddle]

as to the people that have served in the military, how can you blindly accept a war (the invasion of iraq portion) that is based on lies and deciet? it is one thing to lay down one's life for their country or for a noble cause, but it is another altogether to be slain over what amounts to a pile of BS.

So, are you saying that we have been lied too, or the Iraqi people lied too and killed and gased and taken away from their families for years lied too?

I served and support this war because of what it stands for. You can blindly say there is no purpose for it or we as a country were lied too in order to start the war, but were the sailors on the USS Cole lied to when they were bombed?

How about those in Beirut? Or New Yorkers on 9/11? Were they all lied too also?

Were we as a country lied too 64 years ago in Pearl Harbor?

I am proud to have a President in power now who would rather go on the offensive and protect us from future attacks then sit in his oval office and take care of his own personal needs and act like there is nothing going on in the world around him.

[chickennob2]

I didnt say that anti-US sentiment in the Middle East was created by US actions. What I said is that further US military presence is only going to exacerbate the situation. True, we were not invading the Middle East (although we did have a history of very serious involvement) when the 9/11 attacks occurred. But that is not my point. I honestly dont know why all of the anti-American sentiment developped. What I do know is that by sending troops into their homeland and killing their citizens, we are not defeating terrorists, we're creating them.

[chickennob2]

hmm i just surmised your post to one sentence.

you'll have to go back more than 50 years for the roots of Jihad. try 4000.

and for the record i did not say Muslims=Terrorism, nice spin though. i said hatred is rooted in Jihad and Islam. its part of what each was established on. to deny that is ignorance.

Try 4000? Oh yes, since Islam was created in 570 C.E., going back more than 2500 years before the start of islam is definitely neccessarry to show the basis of an idea that you say is completely a product of islam.

You say that jihad and islam were established on hatred. Islam preaches peace. Islam preaches, and indeed the word "islam" means SUBMISSION! submission is not hatred. It is living a peaceful life, thanking god (allah) constantly for what he has given you in life. That is not hatred. That is love and humility. To deny that is ignorance.

[silver_black]

again, sorry AZ Snake Fan. this thread has gotten off topic of remembering Pearl Harbor.

Try 4000? Oh yes, since Islam was created in 570 C.E., going back more than 2500 years before the start of islam is definitely neccessarry to show the basis of an idea that you say is completely a product of islam.

You say that jihad and islam were established on hatred. Islam preaches peace. Islam preaches, and indeed the word "islam" means SUBMISSION! submission is not hatred. It is living a peaceful life, thanking god (allah) constantly for what he has given you in life. That is not hatred. That is love and humility. To deny that is ignorance.
well i said ROOTS of Jihad and Islam. those roots do not stop at Mohammed and the beginning of Islam.

the roots of the Arab-Israeli conflict occured more than 4000 years ago. it is impossible to understand the present Middle East crisis without knowledge of exactly what happened and why.

i am well aware of the teachings of Islam. i am also aware of how it was founded.

"From the Beginning, its (Islam's) spread was accomplished through physical violence, bloodshed and war. Violence not only against non-Muslim infidels, but also against fellow Muslims. Much of Islam's spread in the world was the result of traders and Sufi missionaries, this is true. Yet the weaponry-scimatars and sabers-all through the art and symbolism of Islam, makes violence and war a central theme of Islam. Mohammad both taught and practiced violence from the beginning." -Abdul Houssain Zarin Koub, Imminent Muslim Scholar



if the fundamentals of Islam are peace and love, why is the term Islamic Fundamentalist a synonym for terrorist?

wouldnt an Islamic fundamentalist reflect the fundamentals of peace and love if that were truly at the core of Islam?

[chickennob2]

if the fundamentals of Islam are peace and love, why is the term Islamic Fundamentalist a synonym for terrorist?

wouldnt an Islamic fundamentalist reflect the fundamentals of peace and love if that were truly at the core of Islam?

Well, its not. Islamic Extremist isa synonym for terrorist. The violence/fundamentalism connection you are thinking of is that of christian fundamentalism (see: new crusades, abortion clinic bombings)

[silver_black]

Well, its not. Islamic Extremist isa synonym for terrorist. The violence/fundamentalism connection you are thinking of is that of christian fundamentalism (see: new crusades, abortion clinic bombings)
oh i see. your posts should come with a built in laugh track. :confused:

for Islam its defined as Extremist. for Christians its fundamentalist. :goofy:

[Johnny Law Man]

Isn't self-loathing a wonderful alternative to practicality... :goofy:

Call them whatever you want...they want us dead...I want them dead first... ;)

If that means the US Army sweeps through like the Orkin man and exterminates people who are willing to vaporize themselves just to kill our civilian population, I'll lose no sleep...

heck, I may even sleep better...

I say, make a concentration camp for the sleaze-bag reporters who live over there and let them bring the cameras through after business is taken care of...

[bcbronc]

So, are you saying that we have been lied too, or the Iraqi people lied too and killed and gased and taken away from their families for years lied too?

I served and support this war because of what it stands for. You can blindly say there is no purpose for it or we as a country were lied too in order to start the war, but were the sailors on the USS Cole lied to when they were bombed?

How about those in Beirut? Or New Yorkers on 9/11? Were they all lied too also?

Were we as a country lied too 64 years ago in Pearl Harbor?

I am proud to have a President in power now who would rather go on the offensive and protect us from future attacks then sit in his oval office and take care of his own personal needs and act like there is nothing going on in the world around him.


this is EXACTLY MY POINT! IRAQ AND SADDAM HUSSEIN HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY OF WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!! i mean now you are bringing pearl harbor into the reasons for invading iraq???????? your presidents offensive that you are so proud of is only creating more and more problems for tomorrow, but you have the wool so firmly over your eyes that you cant see it. your ridiculous post proves that.

[bcbronc]

hmm i just surmised your post to one sentence.

you'll have to go back more than 50 years for the roots of Jihad. try 4000.

and for the record i did not say Muslims=Terrorism, nice spin though. i said hatred is rooted in Jihad and Islam. its part of what each was established on. to deny that is ignorance.

also this "devoid" of blame is baseless as-well. no doubt the US had a hand, along with Britain as-well with the current situation.


hey, surprise surprise, you edited out everything from my post you didnt want to hear. see no evil, hear no evil, right?

here let me try and surmise (defintion: to conjecture; guess. not sure how that works in the context you are using it, but at least its a fancy word that makes you look smart) your whole line of thinking into a single sentence.

baaaaa baaaaa baa baaaa baaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

[bcbronc]

Isn't self-loathing a wonderful alternative to practicality... :goofy:

Call them whatever you want...they want us dead...I want them dead first... ;)

If that means the US Army sweeps through like the Orkin man and exterminates people who are willing to vaporize themselves just to kill our civilian population, I'll lose no sleep...

heck, I may even sleep better...

I say, make a concentration camp for the sleaze-bag reporters who live over there and let them bring the cameras through after business is taken care of...


all right!! genocide and concentration camps!! why did we bother stopping hitler in the first place. all us white guys would have been okay. we should have just joined up with him, dont ya think?

[Jared]

Interesting that there are more posts about the current sitiuation than about Pearl Harbor.



I guess it's true, we Americans ARE easily distracted.

[Johnny Law Man]

all right!! genocide and concentration camps!! why did we bother stopping hitler in the first place. all us white guys would have been okay. we should have just joined up with him, dont ya think?

Hey man, you can go right ahead and be an inactive particpant and watch these Goat-herders drive 757's into your neighborhood and take it lying down...

or...

you can take a course of action...

but, please...please... don't confuse supporting a course of action with endorsing fascism...

...just like a liberal...gotta throw Hitler out there when they don't like what they see...pathetic...

[SkyVortex]

Yes, terrorist attacks have been an issue for years. They were prosecuted as crimes, and that is exactly what they are! If I go to Mexico and blow up a government building, that is a crime. That is my decision, my independent action. That is not an act of war! War is a fight between the armed forces of two or more independent sovereign states or states seeking their independent sovereignty. That is not what we are doing. Individuals are committing criminal acts that result in the death of many innocent people. The Oklahoma City bombing was not considered an act of war. Were the perpetrator of that crime a Swedish citizen who had come here for the sole purpose of committing that crime, we would not start a war with Sweden. Now yes, perhaps there are many more people in Sweden with a similar ideology who might commit similar crimes against Americans, but does that mean we can go into Sweden, destroy their government and replace it with our own, fighting from town to town against loyal Swedes defending their homeland from foreign invaders? Afghanistan did not attack us on September 11th, a select few individuals did. Iraq did not attack us on September 11th. In any way, shape, or form.

Yes terrorism is a problem, but terrorism is an ideology. You cannot fight an ideology with guns. You cannot fight an ideology by removing one government and replacing it with another. Terrorism is an ideology of hatred. What could anyone possibly do to incite more hatred than to send armed forces into your country, killing your loyal countrymen who fight for their freedom? Perhaps you don't like France. You may even hate France. Some Americans may hate France enough that they would want to sabotage buildings in France, and in fact, some people do do this. France doesn't like that. And I guarantee you, if France invaded America, sent foot soldiers through your hometown, you would get up in arms and fight. That indifference or slight aversion to France would be all out hatred. You would do anything you could to hurt France. The isolated hatred of a few individuals will only grow and multiply by the use of armed forces to invade your country.

If there is a terrorist training camp in Iraq, fine, go and invade that camp and destroy it. If there is a violent cult in say… Topeka Kansas, the SWAT team would infiltrate the compound and eliminate the threat. That is fine. Individuals committing crimes and gathering in compounds to plan and carry out those crimes. Fine. Take em down. But to invade the entire state of Kansas, or even the county in which Topeka is located because there are some in Topeka who would commit crimes against you is absurd. All that it can do is breed more contempt and create more criminals. To destroy a cancer, you excise the tumor, not flood the body with arsenic. It is the same with terrorism. You can achieve nothing by invading a country and replacing its government, as it is individuals, not an entire country that is the problem. Removing a weed by burning a field accomplishes nothing. If you want to accurately remove the individuals responsible for the problem, that will be difficult, but is the only course of action. To enact sweeping measures to solve an isolated problem will always do more harm than good.



You know what, you are right. America needs to wake up. We were emotionally weak after 9/11. We were told there was a connection between Iraq and 9/11. We were told Iraq had "WMDs" and was threatening to use them against us. Alright then, we trust you, let's do this. But wait, there is no connection. There are no WMDs. Oh yes, but we are liberating the Iraqis. We're fighting the war on terror and we're liberating the Iraqis. War on terror, but I thought that the 9/11 commission said that they found no "collaborative relationship" between Iraq and al Qaeda. Yeah, but there are now new terrorists. See? Look how they are attacking our troops. Yes, but our troops are invading their country, challenging their freedom and removing their government. That's not terrorism, that is defending ones country. No, trust me, they are still terrorists… And we're fighting for freedom. Freedom. That’s the big American thing right? Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. Freedom. GO USA, right? But we are removing their government and establishing a puppet government under out control in the way that we see fit. There is no liberty there. Life? we are killing their innocent civilians, their civilians fighting to defend their country from foreign invaders. Happiness? I would be very happy when my father and uncle are shot by American soldiers and my home is destroyed. Well, but that’s just collateral damage. This is a war. Those things happen. They will be better off when they are under a government that we set up by the way that we see fit. Trust me.

It is time for America to wake up. We have been spoon fed this crock and bull story by the administration and thus far we have accepted it (51%, that’s a mandate, right? That’s everybody). Meanwhile Halliburton is making untold amounts of money with reconstruction contracts. And that is just the beginning. We have no idea the extent to which this type of corruption exists. Yet we sit by and do nothing. It is time for America to wake up. It is time we realize the truth. It is time we think for ourselves.


"Go To Hell George!"


Lol.....you believe everything you read?
Trust me, you are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay off. Ok then. How would you fix it?
If you are to say elect so and so tell me first how many presidents in amercian history has not used military force?
Go on now, look it up.
But seriously, you have a lot of energy directed at someone who really isnt in control.
I like how all of the Bush bashers act as if this is the first president to lie.
You are missing information and your conclusion reflects it.

Trust me when I tell you that our occupation is more productive than 99.999999999% if Americans know.
Is it related to 9/11? Kind of.
Does it help to prevent another 9/11?
No. It prevents things on a much larger scale.
Trust me.

[chickennob2]

Interesting that there are more posts about the current sitiuation than about Pearl Harbor.



I guess it's true, we Americans ARE easily distracted.

Well, the first post was not at all focused on Pearl Harbor, so myself in otehrs responded in kind.

[bcbronc]

Hey man, you can go right ahead and be an inactive particpant and watch these Goat-herders drive 757's into your neighborhood and take it lying down...

or...

you can take a course of action...

but, please...please... don't confuse supporting a course of action with endorsing fascism...

...just like a liberal...gotta throw Hitler out there when they don't like what they see...pathetic...


i only bring up hitler because you bring up genocide and concentration camps. hitler was big on those ideas, too. but i guess you subscribe to the point of view that its only wrong if the bad guys do it, right? posts like yours just leave me baffled as to why there is so much anti-american sentiment around the world.

and goat-herders? awesome. why not just call them sand-n#gg#rs and get your ignorance right out in the open. pathetic indeed.

[Johnny Law Man]

i only bring up hitler because you bring up genocide and concentration camps. hitler was big on those ideas, too. but i guess you subscribe to the point of view that its only wrong if the bad guys do it, right? posts like yours just leave me baffled as to why there is so much anti-american sentiment around the world.

and goat-herders? awesome. why not just call them sand-n#gg#rs and get your ignorance right out in the open. pathetic indeed.

Let me offend the girls too and state that you are definitely in touch with your feminine side...(Now I can sleep tonight)

No, you bring up Hitler because you don't like what I have to say...

If you were a true Liberal, my opinion would matter just as much as yours does, but I suppose you want to eat that cake that you have too...

Anti-American sentiment doesn't bother me either...I've been hated because I am beautiful for years... ;)

I have just one question for you, oh bleeding of the heart...do you cry for the children at night when you go to bed???...if so, throw in some extra sobbin' for me...thanx...

All that I'm saying is that I am not confused as to who's side I am on...

[silver_black]

hey, surprise surprise, you edited out everything from my post you didnt want to hear. see no evil, hear no evil, right?

here let me try and surmise (defintion: to conjecture; guess. not sure how that works in the context you are using it, but at least its a fancy word that makes you look smart) your whole line of thinking into a single sentence.

baaaaa baaaaa baa baaaa baaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
when all else fails, fresh tactics. anymore insults?

very classy. :rolleyes:

[bcbronc]

[QUOTE]Let me offend the girls too and state that you are definitely in touch with your feminine side...(Now I can sleep tonight)

good one. :coffee:

No, you bring up Hitler because you don't like what I have to say...

well, since all you had to say was the we should kill them all and open up concentration camps, i guess it is fair to say that i brought up hitler because i dont like what you say.

If you were a true Liberal, my opinion would matter just as much as yours does, but I suppose you want to eat that cake that you have too...

so i guess, since you are not a Liberal, you dont agree that other peoples opinions matter? like mine for example?

Anti-American sentiment doesn't bother me either...I've been hated because I am beautiful for years... ;)

whether anti-american sentiment bothers you or not, perhaps its high time that some americans start to ask why it is so rampant. as for people hating you because your beautiful, i dont claim to know what kind of person you are from reading a few posts, but if your earlier post in this thread is a true representation of what kind of person you are, i'm thinking people might hate you because your rascist and ignorant and short sighted. i'm not saying you are any of those things, only that your early post sure gave me that impression.

I have just one question for you, oh bleeding of the heart...do you cry for the children at night when you go to bed???...if so, throw in some extra sobbin' for me...thanx...

dont mistake being open minded with being a bleeding heart. just because i am willing to look at both sides of a situation (a good trait for someone in law enforcement to develop. my do good tip of the day ;) ) doesnt mean i have a bleeding heart. in fact, i dont feel sorry for anyone on the planet. stuff happens and i believe always for a reason. thats not to say i dont have compassion and empathy for people in tough situations, but i'm far from a bleeding heart. so i cant be doing any sobbing for you, but i might ask God to open your eyes tonight when i say my prayers. your welcome.


All that I'm saying is that I am not confused as to who's side I am on...

i'm not confused about who's side i'm on, either. i'm on the side that figures wars have gotten us nowhere, except for where we are today, and they are going to continue to get us there. i'm on the side that thinks it is time to try using understanding and education rather than torture and land mines. but you just keep posting how we should stop the killing by killing and create understanding through concentration camps. after all they are just 'goat-herders' or 'insurgents' or 'terrorists'; not real people like you and me, right.

anyways, if my point of view pisses you off, just take it out on some 'goat-herder' tommorrow at work. just pretend your at gitmo and have at 'er big boy.

[bcbronc]

when all else fails, fresh tactics. anymore insults?

very classy. :rolleyes:


awwwwwwww, poor little booboo. we are talking about people being tortured and murdered and children being blown up on their way to school and your upset because i called you a sheep? do your best to get over it.

[LawDog]

...we are talking about people being tortured and murdered and children being blown up on their way to school...

That sounds like a John F. Kerry line. Are you insinuating that American servicemen and women are doing the above? If you are, then you have revealed that you have a profound misunderstanding of the situation, have conducted no independent search for the truth, and are content with believing what ever you read or hear from the mainstream media as the one and only truth.

[silver_black]

awwwwwwww, poor little booboo. we are talking about people being tortured and murdered and children being blown up on their way to school and your upset because i called you a sheep? do your best to get over it.
upset? hardly. see i used the roll eyes image thinking you'd be able to "get it".

but maybe if i typed it in big bold words you'd accept it much easier. cause you know, if its in type, its gotta be true, right.

[bcbronc]

That sounds like a John F. Kerry line. Are you insinuating that American servicemen and women are doing the above? If you are, then you have revealed that you have a profound misunderstanding of the situation, have conducted no independent search for the truth, and are content with believing what ever you read or hear from the mainstream media as the one and only truth.

not in the post in question i'm not. i was simply stating that in a thread that has topics such as terrorism and tyranny and torture as focal points, an 'insult' like baa baa baa is hardly worth mentioning.

but if you are insinuating that there is no authorized torture being commited anywhere by americans then i would offer that you are letting your partisan views filter what news you choose to believe.

[watchthemiddle]

not in the post in question i'm not. i was simply stating that in a thread that has topics such as terrorism and tyranny and torture as focal points, an 'insult' like baa baa baa is hardly worth mentioning.

but if you are insinuating that there is no authorized torture being commited anywhere by americans then i would offer that you are letting your partisan views filter what news you choose to believe.

The only torture that is going on is against terrorists that are in custody. If torturing gets us answers and results in this war then thats not such a bad thing. Especially if the answers lead to the stopping of future attacks or capturing of important leaders.

In all the reports that have come out about torture, show me one that says we are doing it to women and children.

[LawDog]

not in the post in question i'm not. i was simply stating that in a thread that has topics such as terrorism and tyranny and torture as focal points, an 'insult' like baa baa baa is hardly worth mentioning.

but if you are insinuating that there is no authorized torture being commited anywhere by americans then i would offer that you are letting your partisan views filter what news you choose to believe.


No, I just have a realistic view of what the word "torture" actually means. The namby-pampy left in this country think that you can just sit down with a captured terrorist over a cup of Twinings Earl Grey and chat about things until, after the second bran muffin all the secrets come out. Torture is a very powerful word, one that is cast about way to casually. A quick review of truly evil regimes in recent and more distant times will demonstrate the type of sick conduct by exceptionally cruel animals - done for the harm it causes to the victim not for any strategic purpose. Interrogation techniques that act to break down a persons mental resolve is vastly different than the base infliction of physical pain. When the word torture is used, most "ordinary" people have the latter in mind, when the former is what is actually being done.

I have no problem with sleep deprivation, forced standing for extended periods, or even water-boarding. But if I thought for a moment that we were extracting fingernails (for a mild example) I would have a problem with it.

Words have very specific meanings and connotations - people like Kerry deliberately use terms to convey a certain mental image, but then deny it and say that it was not what they meant. Case in point - Kerry saying that American soldiers should not be "terrorizing" Iraqi citizens in the middle of the night. That is intentional. It is meant to suggest improper conduct on the part of our soldiers. And it is completely irresponsible.

[LawDog]

Although AZ started this thread in rembrance of the horrific events of 64 years ago, since the thread has evolved to include current events...

please read this article from the Washington post - another perspective on how things are going in Iraq.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/07/AR2005120702511.html

good night all...

[JWinn]

The only torture that is going on is against terrorists that are in custody. If torturing gets us answers and results in this war then thats not such a bad thing. Especially if the answers lead to the stopping of future attacks or capturing of important leaders.

In all the reports that have come out about torture, show me one that says we are doing it to women and children.

I'd like to see one where an American takes a reporter off the street, puts on a hood, and videotapes himself cutting off the head of that reporter.

Show me THAT!

[bcbronc]

No, I just have a realistic view of what the word "torture" actually means. The namby-pampy left in this country think that you can just sit down with a captured terrorist over a cup of Twinings Earl Grey and chat about things until, after the second bran muffin all the secrets come out. Torture is a very powerful word, one that is cast about way to casually. A quick review of truly evil regimes in recent and more distant times will demonstrate the type of sick conduct by exceptionally cruel animals - done for the harm it causes to the victim not for any strategic purpose. Interrogation techniques that act to break down a persons mental resolve is vastly different than the base infliction of physical pain. When the word torture is used, most "ordinary" people have the latter in mind, when the former is what is actually being done.

I have no problem with sleep deprivation, forced standing for extended periods, or even water-boarding. But if I thought for a moment that we were extracting fingernails (for a mild example) I would have a problem with it.

Words have very specific meanings and connotations - people like Kerry deliberately use terms to convey a certain mental image, but then deny it and say that it was not what they meant. Case in point - Kerry saying that American soldiers should not be "terrorizing" Iraqi citizens in the middle of the night. That is intentional. It is meant to suggest improper conduct on the part of our soldiers. And it is completely irresponsible.


i agree with what you are saying, to a point. but i was watching a documentary produced by the CBC (the canadian broadcast corporation- our equivalent to the BBC in the uk. i'm not sure how familiar many americans will be with the cbc but they are a very legit and credible news source) and on it they reported that people were coming out of guatamo bay (sp?) with breaks in their legs that were equivalent to being run over by a taxi cab. thats a far cry from forced standing. i cant supply a link (although cbc.ca may or may not have more info on it) seeing as it was on tv, so take it as you will.

but if you are willing to accept that the documentary was accurate (which i do, but without a link i suspect most wont) then you have to ask how much is acceptable? when does 'extracting information techniques' cross the line into torture and terrorism?

and there can be no denying that chenney has repeatedly tried to get 'different' interpretations of torture for the CIA and the like. this has been well documented so i'm sure everyone has heard there favorite news sources spin on his comments. add in the 'secret prisons' and government officials stating that the geneva convention doesnt apply universally to all people, it is no wonder that the 'mainstream news' is starting to ask so many questions.

[bcbronc]

I'd like to see one where an American takes a reporter off the street, puts on a hood, and videotapes himself cutting off the head of that reporter.

Show me THAT!


so anything short of this is okay?

[watchthemiddle]

so anything short of this is okay?

I sense sarcasm in J winn's response.

[muse]

Hmm, overnight arguments get heated here...

bcbronc brings me nicely onto the point of Guantanamo Bay. As I said earlier, we were given a lecture by a defence lawyer of 5 Guantnamo Bay inmates.

Guantanamo is one of the biggest hypocrisies on the planet. When the US stands for freedom and liberty why have a place where some horrific acts against human rights take place? And when a majority of the inmates incarcerated haven't done anything wrong...think: will their family and friends be apathetic or sympathetic to this? Everything about Guantanamo is a lie. Take one inmate who went in perfectly healthy. 3 years later, he's wheelchair-bound as his spine has been beaten out of shape. Yet according to the official release, he's got a degenerative back condition. Hmm. How about the scars from beatings on the inmates? What about all the redefinitions of terms/anacronyms by the authorities just so they can tell the press that there were no attempted suicides etc.?

Torture does take place in Guantanamo. Can I ask you this: how often is torture *actually* effective? Going to extreme lengths, take the dissolution of the Knights Templar between 1307-1314. Despite being one of the more zealous orders in Christendom, they were dissolved by Philip IV of France an the Papacy. Despite their rock-solid adherence to Catholicism, the Inquisition still amnaged to obtain many confessions of devil-worship, denying christ, sodomy, the idolotary of satanic items etc. Why? Because torture can, 98% of the time, get the inquisitors to hear whatever they want to hear and most of the info coming from torture will be false. And if the person has an iron will, they'll die before the 'info' is extracted. Torture, in just about every case, is wrong and ineffective. However mild, can still leave deep mental scars and in heavier cases, deeper ones. And here's an article based on an interview with the guy who took the human rights in Guantanamo lecture (see next post)

[muse]

London Asharq Al-Awsat- As part of its war on terror, the United States currently detains some 500 “enemy combatants” at Camp Delta, in Guantanamo Bay, without charge or trial amid accusations widespread torture and ill-treatment.

Asharq al Awsat visited Clive Stafford Smith, the British born lawyer representing more than 40 detainees at his office in Central London to discuss the state of prisoners in the camp, some of whom have been held for over three years, and whether their release was likely in the near future.

So far, nine of his clients have been charged with war crimes and will be tried in a US military tribunal. One of them, Omar Khodr, a Canadian national of Egyptian origin, was caught in Afghanistan aged 15. Now 18, he has lost his sight and suffered injury to his chest during his detention. He is accused of hurling a hand grenade at an American solider in the military corps after the house in which he lived in Khost, a town on the border with Pakistan, was bombed in July 2002.

Stafford Smith indicated terrible human rights abuses were taking place in Camp Delta and accused the current US administration of keeping the detention facility open to trick public opinion into believing it was on the right track to win the so-called war on terror.

Guantanamo Bay is one of the most isolated and secretive places on earth. Only a handful of lawyers and journalists have been allowed to visit and expose the abuse of prisoners from eighteen different nationalities, mostly Arabs caught in Afghanistan, some even sold for a mere $5000 dollars.

On Friday, the United Nations rejected a US invitation to visit the prison camp, blaming restrictions imposed by Washington, which would not allow UN human rights experts to speak to detainees in private.

In his eight visits to Guantanamo Bay, Stafford Smith said he met with his clients in private for 3 hours a day, including Sami Muhieddin al Hajj, a Sudanese cameraman working for Al Jazeera in Afghanistan during the US invasion. He also met the Saudi Shakir Abdul Rahim, married to a British national, the Palestinian Jamil al Banna, the Iraqi Bisher al Rawi, the Libyan, Omar al Deghayes and others from Mauritania, China, Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, Kuwait and Sudan. However, he admitted that the US prison authorities were probably spying on his sessions with his clients.

The British-born lawyer revealed the presence of a secret detention facility to punish troublesome prisoners unknown to the media, which has mentioned Camp 4, a medium security facility and Camp 5, known for its harsh security procedures and solitary confinement.

Asked by Asharq al Awsat to describe the prison, Stafford Smith said, “I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.”

International law was no longer sufficient to put an end to the tragedy, he added, which was why he was counting on the media to enforce pressure on the US administration to close the detention facility.

“We live in a new world where we lack a sense of history. When the United States caught the spies of the Cold War at the height of the conflict between the Eastern camp and the Western camp, it did not incarcerate them in Guantanamo but detained them in normal jails,” he said.

Accusing the current administration of violating human rights agreements, he expressed his apologies on behalf of the people of the US for their government’s practices.

While US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld had designated the prisoners as enemy combatants caught in battle, Stafford Smith said two of his clients were arrested while on a business trip to the Gambia in 2002 to establish a factory to produce Soya oil.

Jamil al Banna and the Iraqi Bisher al Rawi were detained at Banjul airport, because of their links to Abu Qatada, or Omar Mahmoud Othman, the extremist Palestinian figure currently in jail for endangering national security as the alleged spiritual leader of al Qaeda in Europe.

The British Foreign Office declined to represent al Rawi because he not a British national, despite having lived in the country for many years. His family fear for their son who sought asylum in Britain in 1985 and who might be forced to return to Iraq when freed.

Other British residents are currently held in Camp Delta. They include Bisher al Rawi, the Ugandan Jamal Abdullah, who came to the United Kingdom with his mother, the Saudi Shakir Abdul Rahim, who arrived in 1996 and married a British woman with whom he has 4 kids.

Confirming reports published by the Washington Post on secret US detention facilities in Eastern Europe where al Qaeda members are jailed, Stafford- Smith indicated that he believed one such center exists in Poland. He suspected al Qaeda officials, such as Khalid Sheikh Mohammad, Abu Zubaidah, Abu Faraj al Libbi and Ramzi ibn al Shibah, were held there.

Refusing to be pessimistic, Stafford- Smith promised all his clients would be released if the necessary pressure were exerted. He recalled how one British prisoner in Guantanamo Bay was freed after political and media pressure, pointing out that all twenty European prisoners have been freed.

Shakir Abdul Rahim, a Saudi prisoner represented by Stafford- Smith, had lost half his weight and is now a mere 130 pounds, because of his ongoing hunger strike in protest against ill-treatment by prison guards in Camp Delta. His stance had earned him the nickname “leader of the strikers,” the lawyer indicated.

The British-born lawyer frowned when the discussion turned to the alleged human rights abuses against his clients, such as the Libyan Omar al Degahyes, who has lost sight in his right eye and was visited by officers from the Libyan intelligence services on 8th September 2004 who threatened he would be flown back to Libya.

According to Stafford Smith, al Deghayes fears the Libyan authorities more than the US prison guards as he had sought asylum in Britain with his family in 1986 after the Gaddafi regime murdered his father.

Refusing to refer to any of his clients as terrorists, Stafford Smith said, “If these are terrorists then my grandmother is a terrorist too!”

“I spent twenty years defending inmates on death row in the United States and I can assure you that the ill-treatment I saw in Guantanamo is much worse,” he added.

Disputing Rumsfeld’s remarks that Camp Delta was established to stop terrorism, the British-born lawyer pointed out, “The danger today on the United States and Europe is greater than before. The depth of hatred because of Guantanamo is bigger and more dangerous. We claim to fight terrorism worldwide to establish peace but the first thing we do is detain people and bring them to Guantanamo and take away their freedom.”

Commenting on the treatment he has received at the hands of US prison guards at Camp Delta, the lawyer said, “These soldiers have been brainwashed which is why they consider me an enemy. I thank the US authorities for allowing me to meet the prisoners on eight separate visits.”

His Ethiopian client, 28-year old Binyam Mohammad was transferred to Morocco for 28 months where he was severely tortured and forced to confess to having dinner, on 3 April 2002, with Khaled Sheikh Mohammad, Al Qaeda's number three and Ramzi ibn al Shaibah, thought to be behind the September 11 attacks.

The same story of abuse and mistreatment is repeated with Sami Muhyi al Din al Hajj, a Sudanese national who was arrested in 2001 while working for Al Jazeera in Afghanistan and detained in Guantanamo. According to Stafford Smith, his client has yet to be charged by the US authorities. “He has been tortured so much that I would describe his treatment as sadism.”

Al Hajj had first alerted the British born lawyer to instances where the Quran had been desecrated by prison guards. He testified to Stafford Smith, “I was a witness when they threw the holy Quran. Hamza from Tunisia was also present.”

“In protest against this sullying, Sami went on hunger strike. A soldier dragged him shaved his hair off and then threw him to the floor. He was hurt in his right cheek,” Stafford Smith recounted.

“As punishment for his refusal to cooperate with the American guards, he was moved to the maximum security Camp 5 where he was held in solitary confinement for eight months,” he added. Al Hajj continues to be regarded as a Category A prisoner.



Enjoy. http://www.asharqalawsat.com/english/news.asp?id=2723&section=3

[Johnny Law Man]

Well, I suppose that I should clear a couple things up for those who interpret poorly...

concentration camps...it was figuarative, No, I do not want to see Anderson Cooper and Aaron Brown actaully herded up (Like goats :D ) and systematically tortured...that would be an absurd proposition...but, I do not think that they belong in Iraq...I think that it is a terrible disservice to the United States military, government and essentially Americans in general, for some social climbing high brow to run around a war-zone with a microphone in the hopes of advancing his/her career...In fact, I think that the cameras should go and business should be attended to by the most intense means...perhaps I used the term "concentration camps" because of a general disrespect for the nature of reporting that so often takes place...it was an intentional over-state...get a sense of cynicism for cryin' out loud...
goat herders...this statement was a general statement of intentional disrespect geared towards those individuals sho would forgoe their survival instinct and kill themselves in the hopes of taking as many others with them as possible...I have no respect for them, I call them names...I suppose that makes me the bad guy...somehow... :confused:
anti-american sentiment...won't budge on this one...anti-american sentiment is not new...it did not come about recently...as an american, I really don't care why someone else hates me, they are welcome to their own opinion...however, when you organize as a group and act on that hatred by killing our civilians and destroying anything that exemplifies our american way of life, I tend to value your opinion of me quite a bit less...and one step below those who would perform those acts are those who would attempt to justify those acts...where I come from, if you condone acts of violence of those who hate me...you too hate me...
in conclusion, the previous statements were made with no malice towards you...I respect your opinion although I disagree with a fair portion of it...please do not interpret my statements to aid in your blood feud with our President...write him a letter, he really does read them all... :laugh:

[LDB]

I am SO glad that you guys weren't defending our country during WWII. Good grief. Do you for one minute really believe that these guys (terrorists) play by the same rules that we play by? Get real. How quickly you forget the likes of the murders of Daniel Pearl, Nicholas Berg, Margaret Hassan, and many others. These militants have shown themselves to be enemies of not only America and Iraq, but enemies of Islam and humanity. The world has witnessed this kind of cruelty before - the heartless zealotry that led to the gulags, the Cultural Revolution, and the killing fields. These animals do not hesitate in killing men, women, and children. They do not hesitate in killing their own people. They do not deserve rights.

Are you really so short sighted to see that these people will not be content with us pulling out of Iraq? Do you want to give them more resources to carry out a war that will reach our shores? Do not be short sighted. It is not the U.S. that is destabilizing the world, it is the terrorists. Unfortunately, they are succeeding thanks to the far-left. How quickly we have forgotten September 11.

Conspiracy theories aside, the US was not the only intelligence sources stating that Hussein possessed WMDs. All Hussein had to do was let inspectors come back into Iraq. He stalled as long as he could. Why? Why not let immediate access if he had nothing to hide? Hmmm...

Are we creating more terrorists through the war in Iraq? We were not in Iraq on September 11, 2001. The radicals' hatred existed before Iraq was an issue, and it will exist after Iraq is an excuse. The government of Russia did not support Operation Iraqi Freedom, and yet the Islamic militants killed more than 180 Russian schoolchildren in Beslan. Iraq is just the current tool that the radical Islam leaders are using to create more terrorists. If it wasn't Iraq it would be something else...probably Afghanistan.

One day, you will recognize that Bush has done what he could, despite his name and reputation being ruined, to keep us safe. He may not have been the best President, he has made many mistakes. But one day you will open your eyes and see that this world is jacked up. We should not be expected to play by the rules when our enemies do not play by the rules. Any soldier can tell you that. Bush has met the threat head on and is doing what is necessary to keep the U.S. safe.

It is easy to play armchair quarterback from the safety of your homes. To second guess, because you aren't placed in position to be responsible for millions of lives. It is easy to look at the world as a simple place when you have only been around for 20-30 years and have never been outside of your own home town. And have never been to the countries that we are talking about and seeing their oppression first hand.

There is no other way to deal with terrorism. It will not disappear if we ignore it. It will not go away if we pretend it does not exsist.

[Eldritch]

LDB, damn eloquent. And correct.

I'll CP you when I can.

[AZ Snake Fan]

That sounds like a John F. Kerry line. Are you insinuating that American servicemen and women are doing the above? If you are, then you have revealed that you have a profound misunderstanding of the situation, have conducted no independent search for the truth, and are content with believing what ever you read or hear from the mainstream media as the one and only truth.


--- in a recent interview with CBS, John Kerry accused our troops of torturing insurgent captives ---

--- he said "Iraqis should be doing that" ---

--- one day a book of "Kerryisms" will rival quotes of Yogi Berra !!!

[rcsodak]

Enjoy. http://www.asharqalawsat.com/english/news.asp?id=2723&section=3
Wow, muse....


....honestly, there are SO many things in that piece of propaganda, that I haven't the will or the time to address each and every one.

But to take what a defense attorney says, as gospel, when he admits point blank that "with enough pressure" the combatants will be freed, is downright scary.

And maybe....just maybe....Guantan wouldn't be such the 'boogy man's house', as it is today, if it weren't for the Radical Lefties making such ado about it, in the first place.

I'm glad you posted that. It was an eye opener.....I'm beginning to see how this got so out of hand......

.....and frankly, for anybody to read it and feel sorry for the combatants, needs to simply re-watch the planes flying into the WTC/pentagon/Pennsylvania field.

I'll continue to pray for people like you, muse......because other than Divine Intervention.......hope looks lost.

[muse]

I am SO glad that you guys weren't defending our country during WWII. Good grief. Do you for one minute really believe that these guys (terrorists) play by the same rules that we play by? Get real. How quickly you forget the likes of the murders of Daniel Pearl, Nicholas Berg, Margaret Hassan, and many others. These militants have shown themselves to be enemies of not only America and Iraq, but enemies of Islam and humanity. The world has witnessed this kind of cruelty before - the heartless zealotry that led to the gulags, the Cultural Revolution, and the killing fields. These animals do not hesitate in killing men, women, and children. They do not hesitate in killing their own people. They do not deserve rights.

One of the members of the CIA has been quoted as saying "at least 50% of the incarcerated people in Guantanamo Bay are innocent"; Stafford-Smith, cynically was disappointed as he believes that 90%+ are. You label yourself a Christian, yet you have openly expressed your opionion of these people: that they are Untermenschen. That's a very facist way of thinking, mate. I don't know why these people are how they are...it's likely that it's not their fault and they're just being used to do someone else's bidding. NO ONE should EVER be treated in a sub-human way, even if they themselves have treated others like untermenschen. No, by treating these people that way, you yourself are lowered down closer to their level. Revenge is best when you remain standing on a higher moral plateau. And to you, you are safe in the knowledge that they will go to hell. I don't believe in heaven and hell, but moral decency is a characteristic that should be valued above all else in life.


Are you really so short sighted to see that these people will not be content with us pulling out of Iraq? Do you want to give them more resources to carry out a war that will reach our shores? Do not be short sighted. It is not the U.S. that is destabilizing the world, it is the terrorists. Unfortunately, they are succeeding thanks to the far-left. How quickly we have forgotten September 11.

My point was that taking action in Iraq in the first place was just plainly stupid. I now have no choice but to support the current operation in Iraq because it'd just be irresponsible for the forces to pull out now. Which I wouldn't put past the US, mind. However the US army is not fit for the job. No peacekeeping skills whatsoever. Christ, talk about aggravation...the US army has made far too many slips already, and that just further recruits people to the anti-American cause. The occupation of Iraq will be long and bloody, and as long as the US army continues to "police" it, well...talk about rallying support for the other side. The US actions of the last few decades has continued to destabilise the west. The most dangerous thing is the distance that the government's head is up it's arse. The complete arrogance shows utter contempt for other countries and cultures and all that does is turn people against them. I believe that Islam is used as a way of uniting these people against the US. It is the lowest common denominator between many of those with grievances and parts of the Qu'ran can be used to advocate a holy war, although even this is debatable. Still, holy books are all too often misinterpreted. The so-called promises are attractive to whoever wants to fight against the US and so the cause can rally support easily. The terrorist groups see US actions as a crusade...what more "justification" do they need for war?


Conspiracy theories aside, the US was not the only intelligence sources stating that Hussein possessed WMDs. All Hussein had to do was let inspectors come back into Iraq. He stalled as long as he could. Why? Why not let immediate access if he had nothing to hide? Hmmm...

They've found sod all WMDs in Iraq. On the British documents relating to Iraq's transaction of uranium from Niger:

"In March, the International Atomic Energy Agency concluded that documents presented to the United Nations Security Council alleging transactions between Niger and Iraq were blatant forgeries."

Do you really think Saddam would have let the UN walk in in any case? Maybe he was hiding something other than WMDs such as atrocities against the Kurds. This war has been based on lies, lies and more bloody lies. I would've been fine with it if George W had said straight off that he wanted to invade Iraq to remove a corrupt, tyrannical dictator who the US had placed there and that it had been partially the United States' fault for how he turned out. That way, hey, we may have gotten UN backing and trust me, that blue beret can make a hell of a lot of difference. But instead, the US march in on a pretty transparent lie, storm the country and lie further afterwards. Which method looks better to you? Because the US certainly hasn't made any friends recently. Radical muslims can feed off this sort of thing for their cause!

Are we creating more terrorists through the war in Iraq? We were not in Iraq on September 11, 2001.

Right, here's a list of countries that the US has bombed since WWII. The highlighted ones are predominantly Muslim:

China 1945-46
Korea 1950-53
China 1950-53
Guatemala 1954
Indonesia 1958
Cuba 1959-60
Guatemala 1960
Belgian Congo 1964
Guatemala 1964
Dominican Republic 1965-66
Peru 1965
Laos 1964-73
Vietnam 1961-73
Cambodia 1969-70
Guatemala 1967-69
Lebanon 1982-84
Grenada 1983-84
El Salvador 1981-92
Nicaragua 1981-90
Libya 1986, 1989
Iran 1987-88
Panama 1989-90
Iraq 1991-2002
Kuwait 1991
Somalia 1992-94
Croatia 1994 (of Serbs at Krajina)
Bosnia 1995 - 40%
Sudan 1998
Yugoslavia 1999 -20% Muslim
Afghanistan 1998, 2001-02

And that doesn't include countries where the US has meddled in affairs. Actions the US has taken through the last several decades will have pissed off more than a few people. And the actions in Iraq will continue to make more terrorists. Oh, and by the way, Saudi Arabia has some of the worst human rights cases in the world. Yet the US doesn't invade them. Oh, that's ok, the bin Laden family likes giving money to the US, makes everything ok. I wouldn't be surprised if Saudi were a nice little recruiting base.


The radicals' hatred existed before Iraq was an issue, and it will exist after Iraq is an excuse. The government of Russia did not support Operation Iraqi Freedom, and yet the Islamic militants killed more than 180 Russian schoolchildren in Beslan. Iraq is just the current tool that the radical Islam leaders are using to create more terrorists. If it wasn't Iraq it would be something else...probably Afghanistan.

Erm, the Chechen conflict is a complicated war of independence against the Russians, not a radical islamic jihad. Completely different conflict which Putin has alluded to the war of terror to demonise the Chechens. What they did was so wrong, but that's not the point. It just so happens that Chechnya is mostly muslim as the population came from the remains of the Golden Horde who converted in the 1300s...the Islamic thing is more a coincidence than anything.


One day, you will recognize that Bush has done what he could, despite his name and reputation being ruined, to keep us safe. He may not have been the best President, he has made many mistakes. But one day you will open your eyes and see that this world is jacked up. We should not be expected to play by the rules when our enemies do not play by the rules. Any soldier can tell you that. Bush has met the threat head on and is doing what is necessary to keep the U.S. safe.

No, Bush has made the rest of the world hate the US even more through both war and other things such as refusal to respect the environment: the US continues to be a major polluter yet refuses to do anything about it. Other countries who pay for this aren't going to take kindly to the US. But I digress. 11/9 was not Bush's fault, but a large part of it can be credited to US actions in the last few decades. The administrations reactions have been driven more by money than by care for the freedom of others. America is now a less safe place than it was before. So is Europe for that matter. Action in Iraq was unnecessary in this "War on Terror" which will never eliminate terrorism and you know it. America's actions have been fueled by the immoral but with a flimsy mask of fake morality. Transparent. And it just spurs on the terrorists...


It is easy to play armchair quarterback from the safety of your homes. To second guess, because you aren't placed in position to be responsible for millions of lives. It is easy to look at the world as a simple place when you have only been around for 20-30 years and have never been outside of your own home town. And have never been to the countries that we are talking about and seeing their oppression first hand.

If I were president of the USA, I wouldn't have the blood of 32,000 people on my hands (total death toll in Iraq on account of US actions - Coalition soldiers and civilians alike), not to mention the 16,000 wounded coalition troops. I would've advocated said war if the grounds had been honest, and I think few could argue with that line. But the way it was handled has only made more people turn against the US and what it stands for


There is no other way to deal with terrorism. It will not disappear if we ignore it. It will not go away if we pretend it does not exsist.

There is NO way to deal with terrorism. And there are much more effective ways of minimising it than marching into other countries (which aren't necessarily a base for terrorism) on false grounds and clumsily trying to rebuild it. With US contracts.

[LDB]

One of the members of the CIA has been quoted as saying "at least 50% of the incarcerated people in Guantanamo Bay are innocent"; Stafford-Smith, cynically was disappointed as he believes that 90%+ are. You label yourself a Christian, yet you have openly expressed your opionion of these people: that they are Untermenschen. That's a very facist way of thinking, mate. I don't know why these people are how they are...it's likely that it's not their fault and they're just being used to do someone else's bidding. NO ONE should EVER be treated in a sub-human way, even if they themselves have treated others like untermenschen. No, by treating these people that way, you yourself are lowered down closer to their level. Revenge is best when you remain standing on a higher moral plateau. And to you, you are safe in the knowledge that they will go to hell. I don't believe in heaven and hell, but moral decency is a characteristic that should be valued above all else in life.


Key words in this paragraph...ONE OF...just because one person says it doesn't make it truth. That is his opinion. You do not know what flavored his opinion. Perhaps he did not get a raise, promotion, his boss was sleeping with his wife, who knows. He could have been disgruntled for any number of reasons. The point is that you should never take one persons word, you do not know what their personal bias or objectivity is.

Do not act like you know me. I believe in justice, not revenge. Me being Christian has nothing to do with this subject. Do I wish that these people would come to Christ? Yes. Do I pray for them? Yes. I still wish for justice. Their actions have labled them animals. There is no excuse that excuses what they have done and will do.

You talk all about not going to their level all you want...until one of your loved ones is caught up in one of their "misguided but justified" terrorist attacks. Then come back to me and tell me about what rights you think that they should have. Go explain to the family of victims of September 11 and any other terrorist attacks how humanely we should treat these people and what rights they should have. Being Christian doesn't mean that I will stand by and watch and animal attack my family and do nothing. They abdicated their rights when they decided to disregard the rights of their victims.

My point was that taking action in Iraq in the first place was just plainly stupid. I now have no choice but to support the current operation in Iraq because it'd just be irresponsible for the forces to pull out now. Which I wouldn't put past the US, mind. However the US army is not fit for the job. No peacekeeping skills whatsoever. Christ, talk about aggravation...the US army has made far too many slips already, and that just further recruits people to the anti-American cause. The occupation of Iraq will be long and bloody, and as long as the US army continues to "police" it, well...talk about rallying support for the other side. The US actions of the last few decades has continued to destabilise the west. The most dangerous thing is the distance that the government's head is up it's arse. The complete arrogance shows utter contempt for other countries and cultures and all that does is turn people against them. I believe that Islam is used as a way of uniting these people against the US. It is the lowest common denominator between many of those with grievances and parts of the Qu'ran can be used to advocate a holy war, although even this is debatable. Still, holy books are all too often misinterpreted. The so-called promises are attractive to whoever wants to fight against the US and so the cause can rally support easily. The terrorist groups see US actions as a crusade...what more "justification" do they need for war?

The US is the only option. Nobody else is willing to stand up to terrorists. Everyone else just hopes it is a problem that will disappear.

You claim we destabilize the region. Would you care to share with me just when that region was ever stable? It wasn't stable before we got there.

Have you read anything that I have previously posted? They will use whatever they can to undermine the hated West to draw recruits. No matter what we do they will find something to use as motivation. In acting, we are denying them resources that they would otherwise have to plot against the world.

But instead, the US march in on a pretty transparent lie, storm the country and lie further afterwards. Which method looks better to you? Because the US certainly hasn't made any friends recently. Radical muslims can feed off this sort of thing for their cause!

Lay off the conspiracy theories. Russian intelligence sources also stated the presence of WMD's and they were against the war. It was not only on US intel that we went in. Can you not understand that?

Radical muslims will feed off of anything for their cause. If not this, then it would be something else.

Right, here's a list of countries that the US has bombed since WWII. The highlighted ones are predominantly Muslim:

And that doesn't include countries where the US has meddled in affairs. Actions the US has taken through the last several decades will have pissed off more than a few people. And the actions in Iraq will continue to make more terrorists. Oh, and by the way, Saudi Arabia has some of the worst human rights cases in the world. Yet the US doesn't invade them. Oh, that's ok, the bin Laden family likes giving money to the US, makes everything ok. I wouldn't be surprised if Saudi were a nice little recruiting base.

Could it be that the common link is that radical muslims cause problems? You see that we target muslim countries. Now look at the reasons behind the bombings. It is more than just "let's bomb them because they are muslim."

Erm, the Chechen conflict is a complicated war of independence against the Russians, not a radical islamic jihad. Completely different conflict which Putin has alluded to the war of terror to demonise the Chechens. What they did was so wrong, but that's not the point. It just so happens that Chechnya is mostly muslim as the population came from the remains of the Golden Horde who converted in the 1300s...the Islamic thing is more a coincidence than anything.

You see coincidence. I see muslim terrorists.

If I were president of the USA, I wouldn't have the blood of 32,000 people on my hands (total death toll in Iraq on account of US actions - Coalition soldiers and civilians alike), not to mention the 16,000 wounded coalition troops. I would've advocated said war if the grounds had been honest, and I think few could argue with that line. But the way it was handled has only made more people turn against the US and what it stands for

There is NO way to deal with terrorism. And there are much more effective ways of minimising it than marching into other countries (which aren't necessarily a base for terrorism) on false grounds and clumsily trying to rebuild it. With US contracts.

Terrorists love your way of thinking. Stick with ideological beliefs. In the meantime, the realists will fight the fight and allow you to talk your talk in the comforts of your warm home.

[Eldritch]

I’d like to note something on the whole yellow cake thing. This myth that the Niger yellow cake intel was fake and an instance where ‘Bush lied’.

The one source that originally precipitated all the usage and reporting of this particular piece of intelligence was deemed a forgery by the IAEA.

Now, the British Government maintains it has corroborating evidence that they deem reliable from several other sources saying the same thing. The British Government stands by the claim to this day and insists it is true, despite the one specific piece of intelligence was forged.

Interesting to note that the forged intel came from the French government.

Something else I also found interesting. When the IAEA reported that the cingular specific piece of intel in question was deemed a forgery, they later said in the same report (and I can't remember the wording exactly) that they were worried about Iraq's attempts to gain nuclear technology and raw materials.

In the same report, the IAEA reported that Iraq sent an ambassador to Niger to set up trade relations and create Nigerian imports. Now, Niger exports like 4 things. Uranium (yellow cake) cattle, cowpeas, and onions. This came from the same people that deemed the specific piece of intelligence a forgery.

So, I wonder what Iraq which of these four things Iraq wanted to import? If it wasn’t yellow cake, would it be cattle? Oh, they needed cowpeas and onions.

[bcbronc]

[QUOTE]Key words in this paragraph...ONE OF...just because one person says it doesn't make it truth. That is his opinion. You do not know what flavored his opinion. Perhaps he did not get a raise, promotion, his boss was sleeping with his wife, who knows. He could have been disgruntled for any number of reasons. The point is that you should never take one persons word, you do not know what their personal bias or objectivity is.


well here is someone elses point of view (amnesty international).

if you have an hour or so, read the whole article (http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR510632005)


This brief is perhaps an unsurprising response from an administration whose outgoing Attorney General decried what he characterized as "intrusive judicial oversight and second-guessing of presidential determinations";(7) whose Justice Department formulated the position, accepted by the White House Counsel, that the President – who apparently believes that there are people who are "not legally entitled" to humane treatment(8) – could override the national and international prohibition on torture;(9) and whose Secretary of Defense has authorized interrogation techniques that violate international law and standards.(10) This is an administration that has sought unchecked power throughout the "war on terror" and shown a chilling disregard for international law. The USA’s policies and practices have led to serious human rights violations and have set a dangerous precedent internationally.

Section 5 of the report points to an overarching war mentality adopted by the US administration since 11 September 2001 which has led it to manipulate or jettison basic human rights protections for detainees, including instances of the USA refusing to recognize that United Nations human rights experts have the mandate to raise concerns about US actions in the "war on terror". For example, UN Special Rapporteurs have raised allegations of extrajudicial executions by US forces, only to have the US reject such concerns out of hand. In April 2005, the mandate of the UN Independent Expert on the Situation of Human Rights in Afghanistan was not renewed. This is alleged to have been the result of US government pressure. The former postholder has said that he believes the non-renewal of his mandate was due to the USA’s dislike of his insistence that he should be allowed to visit detainees in US custody in Afghanistan, particularly in light of allegations of torture and ill-treatment of such detainees.

here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanamo/0,13743,1000982,00.html) is a link with some audio clips and more articles.

and here (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/content_objectid=14042696_method=full_siteid=50143 _headline=-MY-HELL-IN-CAMP-X-RAY-name_page.html) is a first hand report from a former guantanamo inmate.

basically, just trying to show you that it is not just ONE person making these claims. obviously only the dreadfully naive would believe it if it was only ONE person making the claims. but with the amount of claims there is, you have to be either dreadfully naive or intentionally ignorant to believe that no human rights are being violated.

Do not act like you know me. I believe in justice, not revenge. Me being Christian has nothing to do with this subject. Do I wish that these people would come to Christ? Yes. Do I pray for them? Yes. I still wish for justice. Their actions have labled them animals. There is no excuse that excuses what they have done and will do.

how can you pretend you care about justice and then say it is okay to torture someone because you consider them to be an 'animal'?

You talk all about not going to their level all you want...until one of your loved ones is caught up in one of their "misguided but justified" terrorist attacks. Then come back to me and tell me about what rights you think that they should have. Go explain to the family of victims of September 11 and any other terrorist attacks how humanely we should treat these people and what rights they should have. Being Christian doesn't mean that I will stand by and watch and animal attack my family and do nothing. They abdicated their rights when they decided to disregard the rights of their victims.

so much for justice. sounds alot more like revenge to me.

The US is the only option. Nobody else is willing to stand up to terrorists. Everyone else just hopes it is a problem that will disappear.

or everybody else realizes the US's approach only galvanizes the terrorists and gives the sick bastards who recruit children and suicide bombers an endless supply of ammuniton.

You claim we destabilize the region. Would you care to share with me just when that region was ever stable? It wasn't stable before we got there.

how far are we going back here?

Have you read anything that I have previously posted? They will use whatever they can to undermine the hated West to draw recruits. No matter what we do they will find something to use as motivation. In acting, we are denying them resources that they would otherwise have to plot against the world.

have you ever stopped to ask yourself where all this hatred comes from. it hasnt just come up overnight. people dont fly planes full of innocent people into buildings full of innocent people on a whim.

Lay off the conspiracy theories. Russian intelligence sources also stated the presence of WMD's and they were against the war. It was not only on US intel that we went in. Can you not understand that?

but it was the US (and their coalition) that went in. can you not understand that?

Radical muslims will feed off of anything for their cause. If not this, then it would be something else.

yes that is probably so. but their would be alot less 'radical muslims' in the world if the recruiting wasnt made so damn easy.

Could it be that the common link is that radical muslims cause problems? You see that we target muslim countries. Now look at the reasons behind the bombings. It is more than just "let's bomb them because they are muslim."

but then what about all the countries that werent muslim? i guess the common link there is that radical muslims cause problems.

You see coincidence. I see muslim terrorists

do you know anything about what is going on in chechnya?

Terrorists love your way of thinking. Stick with ideological beliefs. In the meantime, the realists will fight the fight and allow you to talk your talk in the comforts of your warm home.

terrorist recruiters and planners love your way of thinking. keep sticking with your ideological beliefs and killing parents and children. then the 'religious' leaders in the community can use this to brain wash another generation of terrorists, and then they can bomb something, and then you can kill them and turn their siblings and children into terrorists and they will bomb something and the cycle can just keep going and going and going.

[LDB]

well here is someone elses point of view (amnesty international).

Amnesty International...nuff said. :coffee:

basically, just trying to show you that it is not just ONE person making these claims. obviously only the dreadfully naive would believe it if it was only ONE person making the claims.

I guess I am naive.

how can you pretend you care about justice and then say it is okay to torture someone because you consider them to be an 'animal'?

I never said that it was ok to torture someone did I? Where did I say that? I just feel no sorrow for putting an animal down when they are rabid.

so much for justice. sounds alot more like revenge to me.

Not revenge. Justice. There is a difference.


or everybody else realizes the US's approach only galvanizes the terrorists and gives the sick bastards who recruit children and suicide bombers an endless supply of ammuniton.

They don't need ammo. They will keep it up no matter what we do. Only those who swallow left-wing drivel believe the U.S. is responsible. The terrorists are responsible for all of the atrocities.

how far are we going back here?

From the beginning. The root goes back to Ishmael. The middle-east has never been stable.

have you ever stopped to ask yourself where all this hatred comes from. it hasnt just come up overnight. people dont fly planes full of innocent people into buildings full of innocent people on a whim.

Read the Qur'an and come back and talk to me. That is where the hatred comes from.

but it was the US (and their coalition) that went in. can you not understand that?

Yes, I understand the US went in to help keep us safe because no one else would.

yes that is probably so. but their would be alot less 'radical muslims' in the world if the recruiting wasnt made so damn easy.

No there would not. This problem would still be there even if we did not go into Iraq. The recruiting and training camps were thriving well before the Iraq War.

but then what about all the countries that werent muslim? i guess the common link there is that radical muslims cause problems.

No. Muse was trying to paint the picture that the US was targeting Muslim countries as if our main reason for bombing them was because they were Muslim. I am pointing out that if the radical muslims weren't causing problems then there would have been no bombings. Seems to show that there is a problem with radical muslims though.

do you know anything about what is going on in chechnya?

I do. This point is linked with my last point. Chechnya has nothing to do with the Iraqi War, I understand that. But that terrorists (yes, again radical muslims) don't care what your ideology is. Russia was not for the war in Iraq against Muslims. Did that stop these Muslims from attacking? No, terrorists do whatever is necessary to get their way. It is a good thing that Canada is protected by US, so you will likely never know first hand.

terrorist recruiters and planners love your way of thinking. keep sticking with your ideological beliefs and killing parents and children. then the 'religious' leaders in the community can use this to brain wash another generation of terrorists, and then they can bomb something, and then you can kill them and turn their siblings and children into terrorists and they will bomb something and the cycle can just keep going and going and going.

Travel around some my friend. Get some experience in the world, perhaps even go to some of the places we are discussing. Witness the effects of the oppression these people live through. In fact, I know for a fact that you will find plenty of peaceful muslims that appreciate what we have done for them. I have been there and talked to them. I don't listen to and swallow all the left wing crap that is coming out of the media. Talk to the soldiers who have been there. Talk to them in person. Not something you have heard from someone who heard from a soldier.

[muse]

No. Muse was trying to paint the picture that the US was targeting Muslim countries as if our main reason for bombing them was because they were Muslim. I am pointing out that if the radical muslims weren't causing problems then there would have been no bombings. Seems to show that there is a problem with radical muslims though.



No, I did not mean that. I meant that the US has bombed enough Muslim countries (strict ones at that) for there to be a strong radical following against the US. Not that the US was targeting Islamic countries...

I would post more but I've got an interview on Sunday -> Tuesday and I don't really have time.

[LDB]

No, I did not mean that. I meant that the US has bombed enough Muslim countries (strict ones at that) for there to be a strong radical following against the US. Not that the US was targeting Islamic countries...

I would post more but I've got an interview on Sunday -> Tuesday and I don't really have time.

Ahh...sorry for the misunderstanding then. ;)

Good luck at your interview.

[muse]

Thanks very much :)

[bcbronc]

[QUOTE]Amnesty International...nuff said. :coffee:

so it is only a legit news source if it is a white house press release?

I never said that it was ok to torture someone did I? Where did I say that? I just feel no sorrow for putting an animal down when they are rabid.

"Go explain to the family of victims of September 11 and any other terrorist attacks how humanely we should treat these people and what rights they should have."
your words from a previous post. seems you are okay with torture, as long as it is only committed to people (yes even terrorists are people) that you consider to be the bad guys. from my perspective, when 'the good guys' do to the 'bad guys' that which defines them as 'bad', that makes the 'good' guys just as bad.

Not revenge. Justice. There is a difference.

there is. but i only see revenge in places like guatanamo bay.

They don't need ammo. They will keep it up no matter what we do. Only those who swallow left-wing drivel believe the U.S. is responsible. The terrorists are responsible for all of the atrocities.

no one has said the the US is solely responsible. but the US has played a major part in setting the table, so to speak.

From the beginning. The root goes back to Ishmael. The middle-east has never been stable.

well, the same could be said for virtually every region of the world, except maybe north america.

Read the Qur'an and come back and talk to me. That is where the hatred comes from.

i actually do read the Qur'an. and i have read a few books on it. and i used to have theological conversations with a coworker who had immigrated from afghanistan (who was muslim). i did not get my opinion and information on islam from a christian classroom.

Yes, I understand the US went in to help keep us safe because no one else would.

hows that working out so far?

No there would not. This problem would still be there even if we did not go into Iraq. The recruiting and training camps were thriving well before the Iraq War.

of course they were already there. no one has said that iraq started it, just like no one has said that 9/11 was the start of it. but going into iraq HAS given a close to home, visible magnet for terrorist recruiters to point to.


I do. This point is linked with my last point. Chechnya has nothing to do with the Iraqi War, I understand that. But that terrorists (yes, again radical muslims) don't care what your ideology is. Russia was not for the war in Iraq against Muslims. Did that stop these Muslims from attacking? No, terrorists do whatever is necessary to get their way. It is a good thing that Canada is protected by US, so you will likely never know first hand.

chechnya is a war for independence. the 'rebels' are fighting to free their homeland. it has nothing to do with religion in any way, shape, or form other than it happens to be taken place in a muslim region. while i certainly dont condone the 'rebels' actions, i have to ask myself if the US invaded my country what would i be willing to do to regain my country's liberation? i like to think i would not stoop to killing children, but if it was your country that was occupied by a foreign army, what would you be willing to do?

Travel around some my friend. Get some experience in the world, perhaps even go to some of the places we are discussing. Witness the effects of the oppression these people live through. In fact, I know for a fact that you will find plenty of peaceful muslims that appreciate what we have done for them. I have been there and talked to them. I don't listen to and swallow all the left wing crap that is coming out of the media. Talk to the soldiers who have been there. Talk to them in person. Not something you have heard from someone who heard from a soldier.

fair enough, i havent been to the middle east in person. but that doesnt mean i am swallowing anything. i have spoken to soldiers that have served in afghanistan. i have spoken to people who have family that currently live in afghanistan. i have spoken to people who have immigrated from iran. i am fully aware that there are muslims that were oppressed and are hoping to be liberated. but so far, for the majority, their lives are as bad or worse currently. but regardless, that is not WHY you are in iraq, so that is irrelevant. if that was why you were in iraq, you would not have continued to supply saddam with weapons (both chemical and not) when he turned them on his own people. so dont try to shovel that 'we are liberating people' crap to me, because none of the worlds military powers give a rats arse about the 'oppressed people'. if they did their would be intervention in haitti and congo and zimbabwe etc etc etc. you talk about left wing crap all you want, but even some of your right wing senators are starting to have their reservations about how this is all going down.

hopefully the upcoming elections in iraq will start to bring some stability into iraq. but what if they elect a government that then becomes friendly with iran and demands the US get out immediately? What if the new government starts to eradicate the Sunni's in revenge for all the years of shiite and kurd oppression under saddam? both real possiblilities. what then, another invasion?

[LawDog]

Muse (couldn't decide which of your posts to quote...)

I listened to a webcast of Clive's lecture at the Glasgow Graduate School of Law. It is about an hour long and can be found here:

www.ggsl.strath.ac.uk/staffordsmith/lecture.htm

This man is an admitted "pinko commie liberal" with a specific agenda that he is advancing. The first part of the lecture is quite amusing, as it describes his successful crusade against some antiquated laws that had remained in 20+ states outlawing consensual oral sex. Then he moves on to the meat of his lecture.

He has been representing inmates on death row, primarily in Louisiana.

From the outset he sets the tone of his subject by conflating a statistic into a "henny-penny sky is falling" shocker. During the period from 1999 - 2002. He studied 171 cases in which persons were arrested for capital crimes. In 126 (or 129 I don't remember exactly, but any difference is insignificant) of those cases, the person was released upon a finding that they were not the perpetrator of the crime. Clive then presents this as a huge rate of error, in which innocents were almost put on death row. The problem is, "arrested" is vastly different from "charged with a crime" and worlds away from "convicted". Additionally, the percentage of people charged with capital crimes that are actually convicted and given the death penalty is quite low. Clive then uses this same purported "mistake rate" to predict that (as Muse noted - cynically) 90 percent of the detainees at Guantanamo are innocent. This is poor reasoning, and is a claim not based on fact but based on a bias and used to support his questionable claim.

Further, he points out that several of his clients (British citizens) were no where near Afganistan when they were arrested. But, just because they were not physically in Afganistan or Iraq or even the Middle East does not equate to innocence. Clive fails to appreciate the fact that "enemy combatants" as used in this situation is not limited to persons on a specific, limited battle field in Afganistan. Terrorists, and those that support them can be found around the globe.

Lastly, he uses terms such as "ill-treated", and "non-human" to cast this spectre of back room torture sessions in which detainees are being maimed, etc.

Although he does make some valid points, they are poisened by his rhetoric and out-and-out falsehoods so as to make his whole lecture questionable. This guy is representing clients, he has 20 plus years of going in front of the media with claims and comments designed to shift public opinion to his favor.

Keep in mind this simple principle - in a criminal prosecution, the government has the burden to prove the crime beyond a reasonable doubt. The defense is not bound to any burden, they only have to raise whatever claim, no matter how dubious, to try and sway a jury to find some doubt. The defense does not have to "prove innocence", and they seldom do. It is enough to just cast some doubt, and the defendant walks.

That is what Clive is all about, smoke and mirrors, red herrings, and preposterous claims. As such, I will not rely on anything he says regarding Guantanamo.

Also note his propensity for falsehoods: he is British, but carries an American passport which he obtained solely for the purpose of keeping his Autralian wife from being deported from the US. A liberal federal judge, who is a friend of Clive's, presided over his citizenship ceremony, which included an abbreviated oath promising to deny fealty to any other nation, to which he added "to the extent allowed by BRITISH law." He is as American as Lenin or Mao, and though passionate in his beliefs, is a disgrace to the profession. Unethical lawyers are why lawyers have a bad name - this guy is unethical to the core.

[AZ Snake Fan]

--- "Lastly, he uses terms such as "ill-treated", and "non-human" to cast this spectre of back room torture sessions in which detainees are being maimed, etc". --- LawDog

--- i would like to point out that the majority of detainees at Gitmo were captured on the field of battle --- many were wounded during combat ---

--- that may explain why a few of them have a limp or are missing a limb ---

[AZ Snake Fan]

--- 9 November 1997 ---

--- John Kerry's speech on the floor of the Senate:

"We must recognize that there is no indication that Saddam Hussein has any intention of relenting. So we have an obligation of enormous consequence, an obligation to guarantee that Saddam Hussein cannot ignore the United Nations. He cannot be permitted to go unobserved and unimpeded toward his horrific objective of amassing a stockpile of weapons of mass destruction. This is not a matter about which there should be any debate whatsoever in the Security Council, or, certainly, in this Nation. If he remains obdurate, I believe that the United Nations must take, and should authorize immediately, whatever steps are necessary to force him to relent--and that the United States should support and participate in those steps.

We must not presume that these conclusions automatically will be accepted by every one of our allies, some of which have different interests both in the region and elsewhere, or will be of the same degree of concern to them that they are to the U.S. But it is my belief that we have the ability to persuade them of how serious this is and that the U.N. must not be diverted or bullied."

[AZ Snake Fan]

--- 9 October 2002 ---

--- John Kerry speech on the Floor of the Senate, from the Congressional Record, p. S10170-S10175: ---

With respect to Saddam Hussein and the threat he presents, we must ask ourselves a simple question: Why? Why is Saddam Hussein pursuing weapons that most nations have agreed to limit or give up? Why is Saddam Hussein guilty of breaking his own cease-fire agreement with the international community? Why is Saddam Hussein attempting to develop nuclear weapons when most nations don't even try, and responsible nations that have them attempt to limit their potential for disaster? Why did Saddam Hussein threaten and provoke? Why does he develop missiles that exceed allowable limits? Why did Saddam Hussein lie and deceive the inspection teams previously? Why did Saddam Hussein not account for all of the weapons of mass destruction which UNSCOM identified? Why is he seeking to develop unmanned airborne vehicles for delivery of biological agents?

Does he do all of these things because he wants to live by international standards of behavior? Because he respects international law? Because he is a nice guy underneath it all and the world should trust him?

It would be naive to the point of grave danger not to believe that, left to his own devices, Saddam Hussein will provoke, misjudge, or stumble into a future, more dangerous confrontation with the civilized world. He has as much as promised it. He has already created a stunning track record of miscalculation. He miscalculated an 8-year war with Iran. He miscalculated the invasion of Kuwait. He miscalculated America's responses to it. He miscalculated the result of setting oil rigs on fire. He miscalculated the impact of sending Scuds into Israel. He miscalculated his own military might. He miscalculated the Arab world's response to his plight. He miscalculated in attempting an assassination of a former President of the United States. And he is miscalculating now America's judgments about his miscalculations.

All those miscalculations are compounded by the rest of history. A brutal, oppressive dictator, guilty of personally murdering and condoning murder and torture, grotesque violence against women, execution of political opponents, a war criminal who used chemical weapons against another nation and, of course, as we know, against his own people, the Kurds. He has diverted funds from the Oil-for-Food program, intended by the international community to go to his own people. He has supported and harbored terrorist groups, particularly radical Palestinian groups such as Abu Nidal, and he has given money to families of suicide murderers in Israel.

[AZ Snake Fan]

--- Here is a chart which lists documentation of the years of collaboration between Saddam and al- Qaeda, including the Senate Intelligence Committee Report and the 9/11 Commission Report ---

http://www.archive-news.net/Articles/SH040923.html

[AZ Snake Fan]

--- Kerry Voted Against The $87 Billion Supplemental Supporting Our Troops And Providing Resources Needed To Win In Iraq. (S. 1689, CQ Vote #400: Passed 87-12: R 50-0; D 37-11; I 0-1, 10/17/03, Kerry Voted Nay) ---

[AZ Snake Fan]

--- in a recent interview with CBS, John Kerry accused our troops of torturing insurgent captives ---

--- he said "Iraqis should be doing that" ---

--- one day a book of "Kerryisms" will rival quotes of Yogi Berra !!!



--- Face the Nation (CBS News) - Sunday, 4 December, 2005

...terrorizing kids and children, you know, women, breaking sort of the customs of the--of--the historical customs,
religious customs. Whether you like it or not.....
SCHIEFFER: Yeah?
Sen. KERRY: ...Iraqis should be doing that.

[rcsodak]

well here is someone elses point of view (amnesty international).

if you have an hour or so, read the whole article (http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR510632005)




here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanamo/0,13743,1000982,00.html) is a link with some audio clips and more articles.

and here (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/content_objectid=14042696_method=full_siteid=50143 _headline=-MY-HELL-IN-CAMP-X-RAY-name_page.html) is a first hand report from a former guantanamo inmate.

basically, just trying to show you that it is not just ONE person making these claims. obviously only the dreadfully naive would believe it if it was only ONE person making the claims. but with the amount of claims there is, you have to be either dreadfully naive or intentionally ignorant to believe that no human rights are being violated.



how can you pretend you care about justice and then say it is okay to torture someone because you consider them to be an 'animal'?



so much for justice. sounds alot more like revenge to me.



or everybody else realizes the US's approach only galvanizes the terrorists and gives the sick bastards who recruit children and suicide bombers an endless supply of ammuniton.



how far are we going back here?



have you ever stopped to ask yourself where all this hatred comes from. it hasnt just come up overnight. people dont fly planes full of innocent people into buildings full of innocent people on a whim.



but it was the US (and their coalition) that went in. can you not understand that?



yes that is probably so. but their would be alot less 'radical muslims' in the world if the recruiting wasnt made so damn easy.



but then what about all the countries that werent muslim? i guess the common link there is that radical muslims cause problems.



do you know anything about what is going on in chechnya?



terrorist recruiters and planners love your way of thinking. keep sticking with your ideological beliefs and killing parents and children. then the 'religious' leaders in the community can use this to brain wash another generation of terrorists, and then they can bomb something, and then you can kill them and turn their siblings and children into terrorists and they will bomb something and the cycle can just keep going and going and going.
Good GRIEF!
You come back to an argument of "liberal bias" with "amnesty international"?

And follow that up with an inmate's "testimonial"?

What's next? Hussein's declaring himself innocent of all charges? :goofy:

[rcsodak]

, but even some of your right wing senators are starting to have their reservations about how this is all going down.

WHO? You mean Hagel from my state?
He might as well be a lib. He's been reacting/following polls for as long as I can remember.

Hint: ever hear of the presidential elections?

[bcbronc]

Good GRIEF!
You come back to an argument of "liberal bias" with "amnesty international"?

And follow that up with an inmate's "testimonial"?

What's next? Hussein's declaring himself innocent of all charges? :goofy:



this is such a common refrain from your side of the fence. i have posed the question before but never gotten an answer: what does constitute a credible news source to you?

you may not agree with these sources individually, but when they are all compounded they have to gain more credibility, no?

and you have a problem with a FORMER inmates testimony? okay. see if you can comprehend why, in the same vein, i have troubles accepting chenney and rumsfields press releases on what is happening there.

but i already know your postition... bush is good....he is my leader...my leader is good...bush is good....baa baa baa....

[bcbronc]

WHO? You mean Hagel from my state?
He might as well be a lib. He's been reacting/following polls for as long as I can remember.

Hint: ever hear of the presidential elections?



if you dont know of any others, then why do you bother responding. instead of wasting your time and mine, go read some headlines.



(i'm gone as of now for the weekend so if you do actually have something to add to this conversation, i wont be able to read it for a few days. dont want you to think i'm avoiding any of your oh-so-valid and well-thought-out points.)

[Johnny Law Man]

Hint: ever hear of the presidential elections?

Now, RC...that wasn't very nice... :P

you know how sore the malicious, scorned, cry-baby leftists are about that particular subject...

you know...I've heard that the only reason that anyone voted for John Kerry is becuase he was opposing the incumbent...

You would think that they could have picked a candidate who was more of a moderate... :laugh:

[rcsodak]

if you dont know of any others, then why do you bother responding. instead of wasting your time and mine, go read some headlines.



(i'm gone as of now for the weekend so if you do actually have something to add to this conversation, i wont be able to read it for a few days. dont want you to think i'm avoiding any of your oh-so-valid and well-thought-out points.)
That's funny as HELL!
A c'nook telling an AMERICAN CITIZEN to read up on his American political system.

Ooooopss....I guess I said a name SOMEBODY hadn't read up on.....



.....what happened to today's youth........ :confused:

[Johnny Law Man]

That's funny as HELL!
A c'nook telling an AMERICAN CITIZEN to read up on his American political system.

Ooooopss....I guess I said a name SOMEBODY hadn't read up on.....



.....what happened to today's youth........ :confused:

I think that he may have Liberated his mind a few times too many in college... :goofy:

[Eldritch]

I’d like to note something on the whole yellow cake thing. This myth that the Niger yellow cake intel was fake and an instance where ‘Bush lied’.

The one source that originally precipitated all the usage and reporting of this particular piece of intelligence was deemed a forgery by the IAEA.

Now, the British Government maintains it has corroborating evidence that they deem reliable from several other sources saying the same thing. The British Government stands by the claim to this day and insists it is true, despite the one specific piece of intelligence was forged.

Interesting to note that the forged intel came from the French government.

Something else I also found interesting. When the IAEA reported that the cingular specific piece of intel in question was deemed a forgery, they later said in the same report (and I can't remember the wording exactly) that they were worried about Iraq's attempts to gain nuclear technology and raw materials.

In the same report, the IAEA reported that Iraq sent an ambassador to Niger to set up trade relations and create Nigerian imports. Now, Niger exports like 4 things. Uranium (yellow cake) cattle, cowpeas, and onions. This came from the same people that deemed the specific piece of intelligence a forgery.

So, I wonder what Iraq which of these four things Iraq wanted to import? If it wasn’t yellow cake, would it be cattle? Oh, they needed cowpeas and onions.


Sorry for quoting myself, but at least I didn't start another thread.

The yellow cake thing, the 'infamous 16 words' that apparently proved Bush lied. Well, check this out from the Washington Times, certainly no slanted conservative publication:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20060313-123146-7380r.htm

Tapes reveal WMD plans by Saddam
By Rowan Scarborough
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
March 13, 2006


Audiotapes of Saddam Hussein and his aides underscore the Bush administration's argument that Baghdad was determined to rebuild its arsenal of weapons of mass destruction once the international community had tired of inspections and left the Iraqi dictator alone.
In addition to the captured tapes, U.S. officials are analyzing thousands of pages of newly translated Iraqi documents that tell of Saddam seeking uranium from Africa in the mid-1990s.
The documents also speak of burying prohibited missiles, according to a government official familiar with the declassification process.
But it is not clear whether Baghdad did what the documents indicate, said the U.S. official, who asked not to be named.
"The factories are present," an Iraqi aide tells Saddam on one of the tapes, made by the dictator in the mid-1990s while U.N. weapons inspectors were searching for Baghdad's remaining stocks of weapons of mass destruction.
"The factories remain, in the mind they remain. Our spirit is with us, based solely on the time period," the aide says, according to the documents. "And [inspectors] take note of the time period, they can't account for our will."
The quote is from roughly 12 hours of taped conversations that unexpectedly landed in the lap of Bill Tierney, a former Army warrant officer and Arabic speaker who was translating for the FBI tapes unearthed in Iraq after the invasion.
Mr. Tierney made a copy, which he provided to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. The committee in turn gave a copy to intelligence analysts who authenticated the voice as that of Saddam.
Mr. Tierney said that the quote from the Saddam aide, and scores of others, show Saddam was rebuilding his once-ample weapons stocks.
"The tapes show that Saddam rebuilt his program and successfully prevented the U.N. from finding out about it," he said.
There also exists a quote from the dictator himself, who ordered the tapings to keep a record of his inner-sanctum discussions, that Mr. Tierney thinks shows Saddam planned to use a proxy to attack the United States.
"Terrorism is coming ... with the Americans," Saddam said. "With the Americans, two years ago, not a long while ago, with the English I believe, there was a campaign ... with one of them, that in the future there would be terrorism with weapons of mass destruction."
The tapes are spurring a new debate over Iraq's weapons of mass destruction stocks more than a year after the CIA's Iraq Survey Group (ISG) completed a lengthy postwar inspection. It concluded that Iraq did not possess stocks of weapons of mass destruction when the U.S-led coalition invaded in March 2003.
There is more to come. House intelligence committee Chairman Rep. Peter Hoekstra, Michigan Republican, told The Washington Times that about 500 hours of additional Saddam tapings are still being translated and analyzed by the U.S. In addition, in Qatar, U.S. Central Command's forward headquarters in the Persian Gulf, sit 48,000 boxes of Iraqi documents, of which the military has delivered 68 pages to the committee.
"I don't want to overstate what is in the documents," Mr. Hoekstra said. "I certainly want to get them out because I think people are going to find them very interesting."
He said the office of John D. Negroponte, the director of national intelligence, is now weighing the congressman's request to release 40 of the 68 pages.
Of the tapes released so far, Mr. Hoekstra said, "Everything [Saddam] is doing is saying, 'Let's take it and hide it' with a clear intent. 'As soon as this is over, we're going to be back after this.' "
So far, the tapes do not shed light on what ultimately happened to Saddam's large stocks of weapons of mass destruction. None were found by the ISG, whose director, Charles Duelfer, filed a final report in 2004.
Some pundits and recently retired military officers are convinced that Saddam moved his remaining weapons to Syria. They cite satellite photos of lines of trucks heading into the neighboring country before the invasion and the fact Saddam positioned his trusted Iraqi Intelligence Service agents at border crossings.
Mr. Duelfer said there were promising leads that weapons of mass destruction did go into Syria, but the security situation prevented him from closing the loop. Mr. Duelfer concluded that Saddam planned to resume weapons of mass destruction production once the United Nations lifted economic sanctions.
Mr. Tierney said he thinks the regime poured chemical weapons into lakes and rivers and sent other stocks over the border to Syria. Mr. Tierney served as a U.N. weapons inspector in the 1990s.
"The ISG, they were lied to in a very systematic way," he said. "Lying. They were very good at it."

[Elways1Fan]

My opinion, is you are war support then be a true one, go join one of your military branches

[AZ Snake Fan]

Hoekstra Introduces Bill to Speed Iraqi Document Release
WASHINGTON, D.C. – House Intelligence Chairman Pete Hoekstra, R-Mich., has introduced legislation that would force the Office of the Director of National Intelligence to release more than 48,000 boxes of documents captured by the United States during operations Desert Storm, Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom.
“What should have been a simple decision by the DNI to make these documents available to the public has become needlessly bureaucratic and absolutely unworkable,” Hoekstra said. “To help simplify the DNI’s thinking and eliminate bureaucratic hand wringing, I have introduced legislation that makes it patently clear what should happen with these documents: Release them and put them on the Internet.”
Under Hoekstra’s bill the documents would be released to the public and placed on the Internet after select culling for known files containing dangerous and sensitive information. The bill sets a deadline of Sept. 30 for documents from operations Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom to be made public. It sets a March 31, 2007 release date for Desert Storm documents.
Hoekstra made the decision to introduce legislation after letter exchanges and direct conversations failed to yield a viable plan to make the documents available in a short time frame. The initial plan offered by the DNI would have sent some documents exclusively to select universities and think tanks, with release to the general public coming several years later.
“This situation demands a greater sense of urgency than the DNI has so far shown,” Hoekstra said. “Whether Saddam Hussein destroyed his weapons of mass destruction or hid or transferred them, the most important thing is that we discover the truth of what was happening in pre-war Iraq.
“There are more than enough people with the linguistic and analytic backgrounds, and a demonstrated interest, that it would be a major government failure to not tap them as a resource and instead let this potential treasure trove of information continue to languish.”
The more than 48,000 boxes Hoekstra is seeking to make public contain nearly two million pages and 3,000 hours of recorded conversations, most of which have yet to be thoroughly translated and analyzed. They are currently stored in a desert warehouse in the Persian Gulf.

--- Eldritch, I can't understand why this info has been sat on for so long ?

--- General Sada and Mr. David Gaubatz accounts will come into play soon ---

--- Hoekstra smells a rat and he is determined to sniff it out ---

--- Charles Duelfer is going to eat the beegeeta one day ---

--- He replaced David Kay as head of the Iraq Survey Group, and filed his final report in 2004, leading to the headhunting charges that there were no WMDs,
the rally cry of the left, thus we were unjustly deposing a brutal tyrant !!!

--- Mr. David Gaubatz, if you recall, begged the ISG to investigate 4 locations in southern Iraq that Gaubatz personaly witnessed.

--- Charles Duelfer insisted on focusing the search for WMDs in Sunni areas like Tukrit, and refuted Gabautz's claims that Sadaam could have hid them under drainage canals in 5 ft. thick concrete bunkers in Shiite territory.

--- David Gaubatz contends that the bunkers were never investigated and believes they are still in place today. He still remembers the coordinates !

--- General Sada said Sadaam flew 56 sorties with a 727 and a 747, seating removed, 2 flights a day, to Syria --- each load --- WMD materials !!!

--- House intelligence committee Chairman Rep. Peter Hoekstra has interviewed both of these men --- and is very interested in their testimony ---

--- Charles Duelfer's ISG was a farce --- Duelfer refused to comment on Gaubatz's allegations, and Duelfer downplayed the most recent tapes released last month ---

--- Duelfer is sweating blue beebees !!!

--- :cheers:

[bronc_fan23]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20060313-123146-7380r.htm

Tapes reveal WMD plans by Saddam
By Rowan Scarborough
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
March 13, 2006


Audiotapes of Saddam Hussein and his aides underscore the Bush administration's argument that Baghdad was determined to rebuild its arsenal of weapons of mass destruction once the international community had tired of inspections and left the Iraqi dictator alone.
In addition to the captured tapes, U.S. officials are analyzing thousands of pages of newly translated Iraqi documents that tell of Saddam seeking uranium from Africa in the mid-1990s.
The documents also speak of burying prohibited missiles, according to a government official familiar with the declassification process.
But it is not clear whether Baghdad did what the documents indicate, said the U.S. official, who asked not to be named.
"The factories are present," an Iraqi aide tells Saddam on one of the tapes, made by the dictator in the mid-1990s while U.N. weapons inspectors were searching for Baghdad's remaining stocks of weapons of mass destruction.
"The factories remain, in the mind they remain. Our spirit is with us, based solely on the time period," the aide says, according to the documents. "And [inspectors] take note of the time period, they can't account for our will."
The quote is from roughly 12 hours of taped conversations that unexpectedly landed in the lap of Bill Tierney, a former Army warrant officer and Arabic speaker who was translating for the FBI tapes unearthed in Iraq after the invasion.
Mr. Tierney made a copy, which he provided to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. The committee in turn gave a copy to intelligence analysts who authenticated the voice as that of Saddam.
Mr. Tierney said that the quote from the Saddam aide, and scores of others, show Saddam was rebuilding his once-ample weapons stocks.
"The tapes show that Saddam rebuilt his program and successfully prevented the U.N. from finding out about it," he said.
There also exists a quote from the dictator himself, who ordered the tapings to keep a record of his inner-sanctum discussions, that Mr. Tierney thinks shows Saddam planned to use a proxy to attack the United States.
"Terrorism is coming ... with the Americans," Saddam said. "With the Americans, two years ago, not a long while ago, with the English I believe, there was a campaign ... with one of them, that in the future there would be terrorism with weapons of mass destruction."
The tapes are spurring a new debate over Iraq's weapons of mass destruction stocks more than a year after the CIA's Iraq Survey Group (ISG) completed a lengthy postwar inspection. It concluded that Iraq did not possess stocks of weapons of mass destruction when the U.S-led coalition invaded in March 2003.
There is more to come. House intelligence committee Chairman Rep. Peter Hoekstra, Michigan Republican, told The Washington Times that about 500 hours of additional Saddam tapings are still being translated and analyzed by the U.S. In addition, in Qatar, U.S. Central Command's forward headquarters in the Persian Gulf, sit 48,000 boxes of Iraqi documents, of which the military has delivered 68 pages to the committee.
"I don't want to overstate what is in the documents," Mr. Hoekstra said. "I certainly want to get them out because I think people are going to find them very interesting."
He said the office of John D. Negroponte, the director of national intelligence, is now weighing the congressman's request to release 40 of the 68 pages.
Of the tapes released so far, Mr. Hoekstra said, "Everything [Saddam] is doing is saying, 'Let's take it and hide it' with a clear intent. 'As soon as this is over, we're going to be back after this.' "
So far, the tapes do not shed light on what ultimately happened to Saddam's large stocks of weapons of mass destruction. None were found by the ISG, whose director, Charles Duelfer, filed a final report in 2004.
Some pundits and recently retired military officers are convinced that Saddam moved his remaining weapons to Syria. They cite satellite photos of lines of trucks heading into the neighboring country before the invasion and the fact Saddam positioned his trusted Iraqi Intelligence Service agents at border crossings.
Mr. Duelfer said there were promising leads that weapons of mass destruction did go into Syria, but the security situation prevented him from closing the loop. Mr. Duelfer concluded that Saddam planned to resume weapons of mass destruction production once the United Nations lifted economic sanctions.
Mr. Tierney said he thinks the regime poured chemical weapons into lakes and rivers and sent other stocks over the border to Syria. Mr. Tierney served as a U.N. weapons inspector in the 1990s.
"The ISG, they were lied to in a very systematic way," he said. "Lying. They were very good at it."


This is a Washington Post article?!?!?!?!?!?!? :huh: :jawdrop: :jawdrop:

[topscribe]

My opinion, is you are war support then be a true one, go join one of your military branches
"YOUR" military branches?

So what country do you hail from?

-----

[bronc_fan23]

Where are all the screaming liberals at????

I would think they would be out in full force right now???? :huh: :confused:

[AZ Snake Fan]

--- ol' Pete has been trying to get these documents and tapes released for a while --- he finally had to introduce a bill to force the releases ---

--- 11/18/05 - Intelligence Chairs Call for Declassification of Documents Seized in Global War on Terrorism ---
House Intelligence Chairman Pete Hoekstra, R-Mich., today called on the administration to declassify millions of pages of documents captured during the global war on terrorism to enable their analysis by the public. more...


--- :cheers:

.

[AZ Snake Fan]

"YOUR" military branches?

So what country do you hail from?

-----


"is you are war support then be a true one" --- Elways1Fan


--- top, he has the right idea !!!

[Charlie Brown]

It's always the same old song and dance with all you.

A terrorist blows some people up and you consider that an 'act of war' ? An act of war is between two states. That is what War is. War is not between a state and an organization. It is NOT. It is that kind of thinking that caused World War I. When Austrian Archduke Franz Ferdinand was assassinated by a Serbian revolutionary. So what does Austria do? Goes to war with Serbia.

[AZ Snake Fan]

Where are all the screaming liberals at????

I would think they would be out in full force right now???? :huh: :confused:


--- they are all huddled up right now trying to throw down charges on our President for the first time since 1834 --- because he was providing security for us against terrorism in a time of war ---

--- :cheers:

[arapaho]

It's always the same old song and dance with all you.

A terrorist blows some people up and you consider that an 'act of war' ? An act of war is between two states. That is what War is. War is not between a state and an organization. It is NOT. It is that kind of thinking that caused World War I. When Austrian Archduke Franz Ferdinand was assassinated by a Serbian revolutionary. So what does Austria do? Goes to war with Serbia.


a terrorist act against american soil, ships, people, or military by a goverment backed group is a act of war.........it is well known sadam paid a sum of money to family members of suicide attackers around the world, mostly in isreal,,but over the years americans hve been killed by them......when the govenment of iran pays for attacks against our military by jihadist ,it is still government backed and a act of war

[Charlie Brown]

Well then since that is all state-sponsored terrorism. This country should first attack the United States of America for supporting terrorists. This country under Reagan supported Al Qaeda in Afghanistan when the Soviet-Afghan War occurred. Furthermore The United States Government backed Saddam up and helped him against Iran. Furthermore the United States has supported terrorist guerrilla fighters in several other countries as well. Thus making the United States a sponsor of terrorism.

[bronc_fan23]

The yellow cake thing, the 'infamous 16 words' that apparently proved Bush lied. Well, check this out from the Washington Times, certainly no slanted conservative publication:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20060313-123146-7380r.htm

Tapes reveal WMD plans by Saddam
By Rowan Scarborough
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
March 13, 2006


Audiotapes of Saddam Hussein and his aides underscore the Bush administration's argument that Baghdad was determined to rebuild its arsenal of weapons of mass destruction once the international community had tired of inspections and left the Iraqi dictator alone.
In addition to the captured tapes, U.S. officials are analyzing thousands of pages of newly translated Iraqi documents that tell of Saddam seeking uranium from Africa in the mid-1990s.
The documents also speak of burying prohibited missiles, according to a government official familiar with the declassification process.
But it is not clear whether Baghdad did what the documents indicate, said the U.S. official, who asked not to be named.
"The factories are present," an Iraqi aide tells Saddam on one of the tapes, made by the dictator in the mid-1990s while U.N. weapons inspectors were searching for Baghdad's remaining stocks of weapons of mass destruction.
"The factories remain, in the mind they remain. Our spirit is with us, based solely on the time period," the aide says, according to the documents. "And [inspectors] take note of the time period, they can't account for our will."
The quote is from roughly 12 hours of taped conversations that unexpectedly landed in the lap of Bill Tierney, a former Army warrant officer and Arabic speaker who was translating for the FBI tapes unearthed in Iraq after the invasion.
Mr. Tierney made a copy, which he provided to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. The committee in turn gave a copy to intelligence analysts who authenticated the voice as that of Saddam.
Mr. Tierney said that the quote from the Saddam aide, and scores of others, show Saddam was rebuilding his once-ample weapons stocks.
"The tapes show that Saddam rebuilt his program and successfully prevented the U.N. from finding out about it," he said.
There also exists a quote from the dictator himself, who ordered the tapings to keep a record of his inner-sanctum discussions, that Mr. Tierney thinks shows Saddam planned to use a proxy to attack the United States.
"Terrorism is coming ... with the Americans," Saddam said. "With the Americans, two years ago, not a long while ago, with the English I believe, there was a campaign ... with one of them, that in the future there would be terrorism with weapons of mass destruction."
The tapes are spurring a new debate over Iraq's weapons of mass destruction stocks more than a year after the CIA's Iraq Survey Group (ISG) completed a lengthy postwar inspection. It concluded that Iraq did not possess stocks of weapons of mass destruction when the U.S-led coalition invaded in March 2003.
There is more to come. House intelligence committee Chairman Rep. Peter Hoekstra, Michigan Republican, told The Washington Times that about 500 hours of additional Saddam tapings are still being translated and analyzed by the U.S. In addition, in Qatar, U.S. Central Command's forward headquarters in the Persian Gulf, sit 48,000 boxes of Iraqi documents, of which the military has delivered 68 pages to the committee.
"I don't want to overstate what is in the documents," Mr. Hoekstra said. "I certainly want to get them out because I think people are going to find them very interesting."
He said the office of John D. Negroponte, the director of national intelligence, is now weighing the congressman's request to release 40 of the 68 pages.
Of the tapes released so far, Mr. Hoekstra said, "Everything [Saddam] is doing is saying, 'Let's take it and hide it' with a clear intent. 'As soon as this is over, we're going to be back after this.' "
So far, the tapes do not shed light on what ultimately happened to Saddam's large stocks of weapons of mass destruction. None were found by the ISG, whose director, Charles Duelfer, filed a final report in 2004.
Some pundits and recently retired military officers are convinced that Saddam moved his remaining weapons to Syria. They cite satellite photos of lines of trucks heading into the neighboring country before the invasion and the fact Saddam positioned his trusted Iraqi Intelligence Service agents at border crossings.
Mr. Duelfer said there were promising leads that weapons of mass destruction did go into Syria, but the security situation prevented him from closing the loop. Mr. Duelfer concluded that Saddam planned to resume weapons of mass destruction production once the United Nations lifted economic sanctions.
Mr. Tierney said he thinks the regime poured chemical weapons into lakes and rivers and sent other stocks over the border to Syria. Mr. Tierney served as a U.N. weapons inspector in the 1990s.
"The ISG, they were lied to in a very systematic way," he said. "Lying. They were very good at it."


You cant ignore this forever.......... :coffee:

I swear that if we found WMD's alot of liberals would say "oh my gosh they were planted there" "how dare they proves us wrong".

Do you just want to see Bush fail?

Would accept the fact that Bush was right if we find the WMD's?

Or would you just ignore it?

[silver_black]

anybody catch O'Reilly Factor tonight?

O'Reilly said hes keeping a record of all those officials who claimed Bush was a liar over the WMDs, and will be updating it as they issue their apology to him. :laugh:

that list is long, and not very distinguished. dont hold your breath Bill.

[Elways1Fan]

"YOUR" military branches?

So what country do you hail from?

-----


:eek: You know what i meant, your local recruiter, or national gaurd.



Next time maybe put a wink or something or id be inclinded to think you are question my patriotism and then we would have problems

[AZ Snake Fan]

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE – March 13, 2006 Contact: Jamal D. Ware
(202) 225-4121

Hoekstra Welcomes Decision to Release Iraqi Documents

WASHINGTON, D.C. – U.S Rep. Pete Hoekstra, R-Mich., Chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, today commended a decision by the Bush administration to publicly release millions of pages of documents, recordings and other media captured during Operation Iraqi Freedom, Enduring Freedom and Desert Storm.

“This is a bold decision in favor of openness that will go a long way towards improving our understanding of prewar Iraq,” Hoekstra said.

“By placing these documents online and allowing the public the opportunity to review them, we can cut years off the time it will take to gain knowledge from this potential treasure trove of information.

This decision effectively places a collar on the bureaucracy and unleashes the power of people and the Internet to help speed this process.”

The United States has in its possession nearly 48,000 boxes of documents and hundreds of hours of recorded conversations, many by Saddam Hussein, that have yet to be thoroughly translated and analyzed.

The more than two million pages of information contained within this archive are currently stored in a desert warehouse in the Persian Gulf.

Over the weekend, the Office of the Director for National Intelligence agreed to reprogram funds to develop a classification and release process for the documents.

While the material will be cursorily reviewed for potentially dangerous or sensitive information, ODNI agreed to develop a process that would release a significant portion of the documents, recordings and other media to the public.

“With so many questions about prewar Iraq unanswered, I’m glad to see there is finally the sense of urgency to get this done,” Hoekstra said.

“Whether Saddam Hussein destroyed Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction or hid or transferred them, the most important thing is that we discover the truth of what was happening in the country prior to the war.”

Hoekstra went on to say the details implementing the administration’s decision still need to be worked out, but he is looking for a clear signal that the emphasis will be to release as much information as possible.

“Will this process emphasize releasing as many documents as possible, or will it be used to further classify documents and keep them out of public reach?” Hoekstra said.

“The bias must be towards release.”

__________________________________________________ ______________