american soldiers to be charged with war crimes? [Archive]

bcbronc

08-06-2006, 12:59 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5246424.stm

The men are accused of murdering three Iraqi detainees in cold blood close to the central city of Samarra in May.

The defence say the men were killed as they tried to escape, and argue there is insufficient evidence to proceed.

A senior US commander will now decide whether the case should be prosecuted. It is one of a series of murder allegations against US troops.

US investigators are currently also looking at the deaths of 24 Iraqis in Haditha last November, while four soldiers and an ex-serviceman have been charged with rape and murder over an incident in Mahmudiya, south of Baghdad.

Seven US marines and a navy sailor have also been charged over the death of a disabled Iraqi man on 26 April in Hamdaniya.

On Friday, three of the marines charged in the Hamdaniya case were additionally charged - along with three fellow marines - with assaulting civilians on 10 April.

The 10 April incidents are said to have come to light during the investigation of the 26 April case. The nature of the alleged assaults was not disclosed.

Samarra allegations

Friday was the last day of a pre-trial hearing in Tikrit required under US military law to decide whether the charges against the four men warrant a court martial.

Sergeant Raymond Girouard, Private First Class Corey Clagett and Specialists William Hunsaker and Juston Graber - all of the 101st Airborne Division - have been charged with premeditated murder and other offences.

US investigations into deaths

The 101st Airborne Division was at the time involved in Operation Iron Triangle, targeting insurgents active in Salahuddin province and detaining hundreds of people. The deaths occurred during a search operation of a house near the Thar Thar canal outside Samarra on 9 May.

Prosecuting lawyer Capt Joseph Mackey claimed the defendants were cut free of plastic handcuffs and then killed without provocation.

"US soldiers must follow the laws of war... These soldiers did just the opposite," Capt Mackey said.

"They cut them loose and murdered them in cold blood. For this, they are not war heroes, they are war criminals. And justice states that they face trial."

'What they deserved'

All of the accused are refusing to testify on the grounds they may incriminate themselves, relying instead on statements made to investigators.

But the lawyer for Private First Class Clagett, Paul Bergrin, told the tribunal the defendants' claim was plausible.

"These detainees were able to break the flexcuffs, they had a knife and they were able to break free," he said.

"They attacked, they spun around, and they got exactly what they deserved," Mr Bergrin said about the detainees.

He claimed the prosecution witnesses had given inconsistent statements.

The decision on whether to proceed with the court martial now falls to the commanding general 101st Airborne Division, who is expected to rule in the next few days.

i'm not one to paint every soldier with the same brush, but if these men are quilty of what they are accused of, i hope the book gets thrown at them. if they did what has been accused, they dishonour the memory of all the honourable men and women that have given their lives in the name of freedom.

topscribe

08-06-2006, 01:08 AM

Oh, I suppose . . . :coffee:

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bcbronc

08-06-2006, 01:14 AM

Oh, I suppose . . . :coffee:

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meaning what?

:coffee:

topscribe

08-06-2006, 02:06 AM

meaning what?

:coffee:
Meaning I have thoughts of my own, but if I revealed them the topic would probably deteriorate into a political skirmish, which would get banned, possibly along with some of the participants. Therefore, I answered the way I did, and I am happy with it.

Now, regarding the CP you just gave me, where you said, "How about you voice an opinion on an important current event, or stay out of the thread. i'm sure there is a pointless jake vs jay thread going on where you can chip in your pointless one liners. bcb. your welcome for the ohsoimportant cp."

I would just as soon not receive any CPs from you. I'm going to ask a Mod to give me a neggie to take it off. Allllll my CPs have come from appreciation, and you obviously do not appreciate me, even though I have done nothing to you. (Looks like jealousy, actually.) And I have never placed a substantial importance on CPs, so I do not appreciate your implication.

Oh yes, since you do not own the board, I wil "chip in" where I want, whether or not you were the thread-starter. Deal with it. And get over yourself. :coffee:

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Jaws

08-06-2006, 02:15 AM

Meaning I have thoughts of my own, but if I revealed them the topic would probably deteriorate into a political skirmish, which would get banned, possibly along with some of the participants. Therefore, I answered the way I did, and I am happy with it.

Now, regarding the CP you just gave me, where you said, "How about you voice an opinion on an important current event, or stay out of the thread. i'm sure there is a pointless jake vs jay thread going on where you can chip in your pointless one liners. bcb. your welcome for the ohsoimportant cp."

I would just as soon not receive any CPs from you. I'm going to ask a Mod to give me a neggie to take it off. Allllll my CPs have come from appreciation, and you obviously do not appreciate me, even though I have done nothing to you. (Looks like jealousy, actually.) And I have never placed a substantial importance on CPs, so I do not appreciate your implication.

Oh yes, since you do not own the board, I wil "chip in" where I want, whether or not you were the thread-starter. Deal with it. And get over yourself. :coffee:

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I do not think that I can help you out with regards to the neggie Top as I need to spread them round before I can hit you up again.

However, I will take this opportunity to remind posters that the CoC applies to the CP system as well and should not be used to send nastygrams.

topscribe

08-06-2006, 02:21 AM

I do not think that I can help you out with regards to the neggie Top as I need to spread them round before I can hit you up again.

However, I will take this opportunity to remind posters that the CoC applies to the CP system as well and should not be used to send nastygrams.
Just as soon as you are replenished, hit me, please.

I'm serious.

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Jaws

08-06-2006, 02:23 AM

Just as soon as you are replenished, hit me, please.

I'm serious.

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It will pain me to do it, but I can see why you would want to.

champbronc2

08-06-2006, 07:06 AM

They deserve it. That's all I have to say.

Jaws

08-06-2006, 07:08 AM

They deserve it. That's all I have to say.

If guilty - yes.

However - innocent till proven guilty remember.

champbronc2

08-06-2006, 07:10 AM

If guilty - yes.

However - innocent till proven guilty remember.
Well, yeah. If they're innocent then let em go.

The Dark Knight

08-06-2006, 07:20 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5246424.stm

i'm not one to paint every soldier with the same brush, but if these men are quilty of what they are accused of, i hope the book gets thrown at them. if they did what has been accused, they dishonour the memory of all the honourable men and women that have given their lives in the name of freedom.

Oh, I suppose . . . :coffee:

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j3phr3y

08-06-2006, 07:29 AM

KCLadyFan

08-06-2006, 07:52 AM

The military is designed to defeat enemy militaries and conquer nations. Ours is the best at it in the history of the world, and has already accomplished this in Iraq. Now the military is being used to spread democracy, nation building, and to hold off civil war. I will not discuss weather this is a misuse of the military because of the CoC.

Regarding these particular soldiers, I believe, if found guilty, they should be held accountable for there actions. However, I don’t buy into the “throw the book at them” statement. I think considerations should be made concerning the fact that they were trained killers put in combat to baby sit.

*Note to mods*
It seems that the more substantive threads on ABF have a tendency to disappear. Would it be possible to give us a chance to edit our own post if it crosses the line? Most of us try to follow the CoC but it is a bit ambiguous.

or couldnt there be a separate forum for the people who want to discuss/debate subjects of this nature, where no one would be allowed to report a post....in other words stay out if you are easily offended...which would be a stipulation before entering the forum and would not have to be monitered by the mods....does this make sense? :confused:

I only posted a couple of times in the political/religious threads but I did enjoy reading everyones views....

maybe what I am asking is way off base....I don't know.....just my thoughts...

Nomad Broncofan

08-06-2006, 08:33 AM

or couldnt there be a separate forum for the people who want to discuss/debate subjects of this nature, where no one would be allowed to report a post....in other words stay out if you are easily offended...which would be a stipulation before entering the forum and would not have to be monitered by the mods....does this make sense? :confused:

I only posted a couple of times in the political/religious threads but I did enjoy reading everyones views....

maybe what I am asking is way off base....I don't know.....just my thoughts...

I've been beating this dead horse since they've done away with politics and religion but threads like this seem to leak through the cracks. I find this to be offensive to the men and women who serve especially where the media always finds guilt in what the men and women do in uniform.

As a man who has served, I also find it offensive that a person from a foreign country can start this thread. So Mods, I ask that this gets closed because I find very offensive and it really fires me up, but I don't want to get banned.

topscribe

08-06-2006, 09:01 AM

The military is designed to defeat enemy militaries and conquer nations. Ours is the best at it in the history of the world, and has already accomplished this in Iraq. Now the military is being used to spread democracy, nation building, and to hold off civil war. I will not discuss weather this is a misuse of the military because of the CoC.

Regarding these particular soldiers, I believe, if found guilty, they should be held accountable for there actions. However, I don’t buy into the “throw the book at them” statement. I think considerations should be made concerning the fact that they were trained killers put in combat to baby sit.

*Note to mods*
It seems that the more substantive threads on ABF have a tendency to disappear. Would it be possible to give us a chance to edit our own post if it crosses the line? Most of us try to follow the CoC but it is a bit ambiguous.
I've been beating this dead horse since they've done away with politics and religion but threads like this seem to leak through the cracks. I find this to be offensive to the men and women who serve especially where the media always finds guilt in what the men and women do in uniform.

As a man who has served, I also find it offensive that a person from a foreign country can start this thread. So Mods, I ask that this gets closed because I find very offensive and it really fires me up, but I don't want to get banned.
Thank you, Nomad, for your service to our country. :salute:

Putting these two posts together would come pretty close to some of my thoughts that I was so reticent to record here.

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bcbronc

08-07-2006, 08:06 PM

The military is designed to defeat enemy militaries and conquer nations. Ours is the best at it in the history of the world, and has already accomplished this in Iraq. Now the military is being used to spread democracy, nation building, and to hold off civil war. I will not discuss weather this is a misuse of the military because of the CoC.

Regarding these particular soldiers, I believe, if found guilty, they should be held accountable for there actions. However, I don’t buy into the “throw the book at them” statement. I think considerations should be made concerning the fact that they were trained killers put in combat to baby sit.

i think what you say about taking consideration on their situation is a very valid point, to a degree. i have read there is a couple soldiers being investigated for raping a young woman and then killing her family. there is no training/situation that excuses that, if they are found guilty.

but i understand what you are saying. my reason for wanting the "book to be thrown at them" is that, imo, a large part of the current ME war has become a PR war. i don't think finding soldiers guilty of murder, and then giving them a slap on the wrist achieves the necessary result. i think it's important to show 'average joe muslim' that western armies are not like the saddam hussein run militaries of the world. it's important to show that western soldiers, the ones fighting for freedom, are held to a certain standard and they face consequences for not living up to those standards.

i'm also fairly comfortable saying that 95% of the men and women serving do not go over the line like these ones have alledgedly. they have the same training and are in the same situation. no doubt it's a hellish situation, and every person has their own breaking point. but, imo, that doesn't lessen what they (alledgedly) did.

bcbronc

08-07-2006, 08:23 PM

[QUOTE=Nomad Broncofan]I've been beating this dead horse since they've done away with politics and religion but threads like this seem to leak through the cracks. I find this to be offensive to the men and women who serve especially where the media always finds guilt in what the men and women do in uniform.

well, i find it offensive that you are willing to give people a clean pass simply because they served in uniform. since capt. mackey, who no doubt has also served his country in some capacity and no doubt knows more of the details than either of us, has called the actions "war crimes", i would expect you to want to know more about what happened before you judge them innocent. at this point, i'm not saying they're guilty. but i'm not willing to say it's just the media simply because they wore a uniform.

As a man who has served, I also find it offensive that a person from a foreign country can start this thread. So Mods, I ask that this gets closed because I find very offensive and it really fires me up, but I don't want to get banned.

i find it a tad ironic that a man that is willing to risk his life in the name of freedom, would then take offense that someone from another country uses some of that freedom.

The Hamburgler

08-07-2006, 08:44 PM

j3phr3y

08-07-2006, 08:53 PM

i think what you say about taking consideration on their situation is a very valid point, to a degree. i have read there is a couple soldiers being investigated for raping a young woman and then killing her family. there is no training/situation that excuses that, if they are found guilty.

but i understand what you are saying. my reason for wanting the "book to be thrown at them" is that, imo, a large part of the current ME war has become a PR war. i don't think finding soldiers guilty of murder, and then giving them a slap on the wrist achieves the necessary result. i think it's important to show 'average joe muslim' that western armies are not like the saddam hussein run militaries of the world. it's important to show that western soldiers, the ones fighting for freedom, are held to a certain standard and they face consequences for not living up to those standards.

i'm also fairly comfortable saying that 95% of the men and women serving do not go over the line like these ones have alledgedly. they have the same training and are in the same situation. no doubt it's a hellish situation, and every person has their own breaking point. but, imo, that doesn't lessen what they (alledgedly) did.

I was not attempting to suggest that a proper punishment for such acts is a slap on the wrist. If it seems like I’m trying to have it both ways here it’s because I honestly don’t know what would be just in a situation like this. I certainly don’t like the idea of punishment based on PR. I think the best course would be to aim for a fair punishment (if there is one) that takes into account the fact that the soldiers were in a situation conducive to such behavior, even if that behavior is still unacceptable.

Charlie Brown

08-07-2006, 09:02 PM

Personally, I think they should be charged with war crimes. The one that really gets me though is that Rape case. It sickens me that our own soldiers are doing these things. We are supposed to be the guiding light of the free world. We are supposed to provide hope to the hopeless. Yet here our very own soldiers are stalking, raping, and then murdering a young Iraqi woman and her entire family.

bcbronc

08-07-2006, 09:48 PM

I was not attempting to suggest that a proper punishment for such acts is a slap on the wrist. If it seems like I’m trying to have it both ways here it’s because I honestly don’t know what would be just in a situation like this. I certainly don’t like the idea of punishment based on PR. I think the best course would be to aim for a fair punishment (if there is one) that takes into account the fact that the soldiers were in a situation conducive to such behavior, even if that behavior is still unacceptable.

overall, i agree with your post. but if/when punishment becomes necessary, i do believe that PR has to be weighed in, as unbecoming as that sounds. and the reason for that is because of the PR damage done in the original committing of the crimes. the punishment, imo, needs to consider the full consequences of the actions to be considered justice.

but my original pharse of "throw the book at them" is probably the wrong phrase to use. i definately don't think many, if any, of these soldiers should face capital punishment. never mind that i'm against capital punishment to begin with, i also think your point of their training and circumstance makes a death penalty too harsh. i do think that any soldiers found guilty should be punished severly enough to illustrate clearly that this behaviour is unacceptable in western cultures, but should stop short of death. recieving a punishment like a dishonorable discharge would be a sham, but like you say, trying to define what a 'just' punishment is, is a pretty tough thing to do.

j3phr3y

08-07-2006, 09:53 PM

I have got a question. Why can our soldiers be tried for war crimes when the terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan cannot be tried for war crimes when they blow up Innocent men, women, and Children on a daily basis. :confused:

That is a very interesting question. If I were to blow up innocent men, women, and children I would be tried as a criminal. Even if I were to do this as a foreigner in Canada or Mexico, it would still be a criminal affair. The key here is that I would be doing these acts as a person who is not representing his government.

In the case of the terrorist, they are not representing a government, so it would seem they would be immune to war crimes. Whereas the U.S. soldiers are representing their government, they are susceptible to international war law. This obviously gives the terrorist a tactical advantage.

The Unided States responded to this situation with an Executive Order stating individuals acting alone and in concert involved in international terrorism would be subject to trial by military commissions. This has drawn criticism for being to broad and lacking transparency.

Personally, I don’t care for the Executive Order. However, the alternative would be to expand international law and I don’t care for that much either.

I’m not well versed in this subject, so if I have made an error please feel free to correct me.

j3phr3y

08-07-2006, 10:12 PM

overall, i agree with your post. but if/when punishment becomes necessary, i do believe that PR has to be weighed in, as unbecoming as that sounds. and the reason for that is because of the PR damage done in the original committing of the crimes. the punishment, imo, needs to consider the full consequences of the actions to be considered justice.

but my original pharse of "throw the book at them" is probably the wrong phrase to use. i definately don't think many, if any, of these soldiers should face capital punishment. never mind that i'm against capital punishment to begin with, i also think your point of their training and circumstance makes a death penalty too harsh. i do think that any soldiers found guilty should be punished severly enough to illustrate clearly that this behaviour is unacceptable in western cultures, but should stop short of death. recieving a punishment like a dishonorable discharge would be a sham, but like you say, trying to define what a 'just' punishment is, is a pretty tough thing to do.

Well, we certainly seem to agree much more than disagree. Regarding the PR, your reasoning is sound and in a practical sense I would agree with you. However, ideologically I can’t accept PR as a factor in punishment. And for me, at least in this situation, ideology trumps practicality.

LDB

08-08-2006, 08:13 AM

I have got a question. Why can our soldiers be tried for war crimes when the terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan cannot be tried for war crimes when they blow up Innocent men, women, and Children on a daily basis. :confused:

Because our soldiers have all learned and vowed to uphold the Laws of Armed Conflict which define what is and what is not acceptable behavior in war. They have also agreed to the Geneva Conventions. In short, we are held to a higher standard and expect our soldiers to properly behave themselves regarding non-combatants. No rules or regulations apply to terrorists.

If guilty then they should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. I know the excuses, but excuses do not justify what allegedly happened. I love my country, proud to have served her, proud of the men and women in uniform...but that has no impact on this.

My concern is that the media is already helping convict these soldiers before it ever gets to court. :mad: We do not have all the facts, so we should hold off on our self-righteous judgments.

WhoDeyBengals

08-08-2006, 11:00 AM

blah blah I don't like bcbronc blah.
Posts like this are the reason that the higher ups on this forum put the moratorium on political threads. Please be mindful of how you approach these issues - it seems that we've been given some leeway lately, and I'd like to see these kinds of threads continue to be allowed to exist. However, that can't happen if we're not able to intelligently articulate our viewpoints without resorting to personal attacks.

On war crimes: there are over a hundred thousand soldiers with an American flag on their shoulder in Iraq, which by all accounts is far more lawless than our own home soil. If you look at the statistics here in our country, putting 100,000 people together in roughly the same place is going to give you some criminals. Based on that alone, one should not only NOT be surprised when reports of soldiers committing crimes come out, one should actually expect them.

If these soldiers committed the crimes they're accused of, then they should be punished to the fullest extent of military law.

Nomad Broncofan

08-08-2006, 11:08 AM

Posts like this are the reason that the higher ups on this forum put the moratorium on political threads. Please be mindful of how you approach these issues - it seems that we've been given some leeway lately, and I'd like to see these kinds of threads continue to be allowed to exist. However, that can't happen if we're not able to intelligently articulate our viewpoints without resorting to personal attacks.

On war crimes: there are over a hundred thousand soldiers with an American flag on their shoulder in Iraq, which by all accounts is far more lawless than our own home soil. If you look at the statistics here in our country, putting 100,000 people together in roughly the same place is going to give you some criminals. Based on that alone, one should not only NOT be surprised when reports of soldiers committing crimes come out, one should actually expect them.

If these soldiers committed the crimes they're accused of, then they should be punished to the fullest extent of military law.

Who Dey, I've gone my rounds with you. Given the history of bcbronc, I find that this thread shouldn't be here. This is all speculation on some JAG's part and until proven guilty don't try them in the media. It's easy to speculate against the troops but the people over there are sick. There are accusation and some proven that the Iraqi's rape their own women and children and beat them then blame soldiers and marines. So unless they have reliable evidence let them serve their country without the backseat drivers who has never touched a gun - like you.

LDB

08-08-2006, 11:20 AM

Who Dey, I've gone my rounds with you. Given the history of bcbronc, I find that this thread shouldn't be here. This is all speculation on some JAG's part and until proven guilty don't try them in the media. It's easy to speculate against the troops but the people over there are sick. There are accusation and some proven that the Iraqi's rape their own women and children and beat them then blame soldiers and marines. So unless they have reliable evidence let them serve their country without the backseat drivers who has never touched a gun - like you.

Take it easy. There is no need to be so openly hostile towards other board members. Everyone is free to have their opinion. We can disagree with that opinion and still be polite to each other. If you feel that this is beyond you then don't respond to that member.

Whodey is absolutely correct in his observation that reactions like yours is a big part of why P&R discussions aren't allowed.

WhoDeyBengals

08-08-2006, 11:20 AM

Who Dey, I've gone my rounds with you. Given the history of bcbronc, I find that this thread shouldn't be here. This is all speculation on some JAG's part and until proven guilty don't try them in the media. It's easy to speculate against the troops but the people over there are sick. There are accusation and some proven that the Iraqi's rape their own women and children and beat them then blame soldiers and marines. So unless they have reliable evidence let them serve their country without the backseat drivers who has never touched a gun - like you.
Nomad, I know about the atrocities being committed by Iraqis right now. I've heard the stories about child prostitution rings, the killing of children who are forced into gay prostitution, the insurgency, the kidnappings.

Not being a soldier doesn't disqualify me, or anyone else who's informed on the subject, from forming an opinion of what's going on over there.

These soldiers aren't convicted in my mind, but I will be following the investigation and the ensuing court martial.

HolyDiver

08-08-2006, 11:39 AM

I'm not sure if I should post a comment or just use the coffee guy..........................Um..........well, I'll say this. If they truly did do what they are accused of, they need to be sentenced to life in prison or death................It's kind of like an obstetrician raping a 14 year old girl on her first visit to the gynocologist. ...................These soldiers destroyed what little faith those people had in the American troops................An now, all the good soldiers have to watch their backs even closer now................................oh what the hell... :coffee:

bklynbronco

08-08-2006, 11:50 AM

The military is designed to defeat enemy militaries and conquer nations. Ours is the best at it in the history of the world, and has already accomplished this in Iraq. Now the military is being used to spread democracy, nation building, and to hold off civil war. I will not discuss weather this is a misuse of the military because of the CoC.

Regarding these particular soldiers, I believe, if found guilty, they should be held accountable for there actions. However, I don’t buy into the “throw the book at them” statement. I think considerations should be made concerning the fact that they were trained killers put in combat to baby sit.

*Note to mods*
It seems that the more substantive threads on ABF have a tendency to disappear. Would it be possible to give us a chance to edit our own post if it crosses the line? Most of us try to follow the CoC but it is a bit ambiguous.

I am in the military. work with the airforce during the week as a civilian mechanic and train reservist once a month on the same aircraft. i am definitely deployable, with that being said i do believe in innocence before proven guilty but i do believe if these soldiers are guilty the book should be thrown at them. train killers are not trained to rape youn girls. what seperates up from the terrorist and guerrillas? war is war but the geneva convention gives us some boundaries to go by and that what seperates us from the animals that we are fighting against.

i don't care what extreme your in war, raping and killing woman and children won't get any sympathy from me.

HolyDiver

08-08-2006, 12:19 PM

I am in the military. work with the airforce during the week as a civilian mechanic and train reservist once a month on the same aircraft. i am definitely deployable, with that being said i do believe in innocence before proven guilty but i do believe if these soldiers are guilty the book should be thrown at them. train killers are not trained to rape youn girls. what seperates up from the terrorist and guerrillas? war is war but the geneva convention gives us some boundaries to go by and that what seperates us from the animals that we are fighting against.

i don't care what extreme your in war, raping and killing woman and children won't get any sympathy from me.

We don't need more reasons for other countries to hate us.

HolyDiver

08-08-2006, 12:39 PM

:confused:

WhoDeyBengals

08-08-2006, 12:45 PM

:confused:
I completely agree with the statement you're awaiting response on. :beer:

I'd give you CP for it, but I need to spread it around. :D

Davii

08-08-2006, 06:54 PM

The rape/murder case is unacceptable, and the soldiers involved will be dealt with accordingly. Military justice is no joke, they will be given the penalty they deserve, if in fact the allegations are true.

The unfortunate part of military life is that the military is nothing more than a snapshot of the society from which it comes.

Marine Corps boot camp for all of it's trials and tribulations is also a way to instill values that Marine Corps desires it's Marines have. I can't speak for other services, but I am sure it is the same. Instilling values such as honor, courage, and commitment unfortunately cannot undo the criminal or psychotic mind.

If there are murderer's, rapists, thugs and gang bangers in the civilian community they will be in the military as well, in roughly the same proportion.

We all hope that they can be found and either kicked out or dealt with accordingly before their actions can sully the reputation of the American Armed Forces. If not, they will be dealt with accordingly and as swiftly as possible.

Nomad Broncofan

08-09-2006, 06:50 AM

Take it easy. There is no need to be so openly hostile towards other board members. Everyone is free to have their opinion. We can disagree with that opinion and still be polite to each other. If you feel that this is beyond you then don't respond to that member.

Whodey is absolutely correct in his observation that reactions like yours is a big part of why P&R discussions aren't allowed.

LDB, thank you for your concerns. But, our military members don't need to be tried on a Broncos website when bcbronc and whodey were notorious of degarding our men and women in uniform from the past political threads. I never said that anyone's opinion wasn't welcome but to have a history of saying nothing but negatives towards them, well, chaps my you-know-what. My wife who is in the Air Force agrees that the media tries the guys out in the field before the facts are gathered.

If these guys really did this, like Davii, these guys will get their just punishments. but before two troublemakers from past experiences start threads like this, well, I'd get banned sticking up for the guys out there before I'd let people crucify them here. The media has made every marine and soldier look bad and it's all political. Yes there is every walk of life that joins the military, but 99% of them are there to serve their country and the media picks and chooses what to report.

Let the soldiers have a fair trial and if they did it then pick them apart until then I stick to what I believe, if you don't have anything good to say about the military then keep it to yourself unless guilt has been proven. Most people here don't understand the military and get their resources from the media. :duh: How is their opinion legimate! And LDB, this is not being hostile but I'm not polite regarding these issues, so I'd rahter you not exaggerate the story. Until then I''ll be here to stick up for my brothers and sisters in the military and at the same time following the COC's. ;)

Archimedes Owl

08-09-2006, 07:06 AM

LDB, thank you for your concerns. But, our military members don't need to be tried on a Broncos website when bcbronc and whodey were notorious of degarding our men and women in uniform from the past political threads. I never said that anyone's opinion wasn't welcome but to have a history of saying nothing but negatives towards them, well, chaps my you-know-what. My wife who is in the Air Force agrees that the media tries the guys out in the field before the facts are gathered.

If these guys really did this, like Davii, these guys will get their just punishments. but before two troublemakers from past experiences start threads like this, well, I'd get banned sticking up for the guys out there before I'd let people crucify them here. The media has made every marine and soldier look bad and it's all political. Yes there is every walk of life that joins the military, but 99% of them are there to serve their country and the media picks and chooses what to report.

Let the soldiers have a fair trial and if they did it then pick them apart until then I stick to what I believe, if you don't have anything good to say about the military then keep it to yourself unless guilt has been proven. Most people here don't understand the military and get their resources from the media. :duh: How is their opinion legimate! And LDB, this is not being hostile but I'm not polite regarding these issues, so I'd rahter you not exaggerate the story. Until then I''ll be here to stick up for my brothers and sisters in the military and at the same time following the COC's. ;)
He only posted some political news. We allow members to post political news no matter their nationality or whatever stance they've shown in the past when we allowed full political debate threads.

Personally, I found the political news interesting and was glad to have been informed.

I agree that some people try crimes in the media before the truth can be determined, but we still allow for somebody to post political news so long as they aren't posting their personal political opinion along with a primarily informative news piece.

Regardless of whatever opinions bc has expressed in the past, in this thread, he didn't express that he assumed the guilt of the soldiers. He simply stated that if they are guilty, they should be punished. That's pretty standard for what most of us expect in any investigation or trial.

Jaws

08-09-2006, 07:12 AM

LDB

08-09-2006, 07:28 AM

LDB, thank you for your concerns. But, our military members don't need to be tried on a Broncos website when bcbronc and whodey were notorious of degarding our men and women in uniform from the past political threads. I never said that anyone's opinion wasn't welcome but to have a history of saying nothing but negatives towards them, well, chaps my you-know-what. My wife who is in the Air Force agrees that the media tries the guys out in the field before the facts are gathered.

If these guys really did this, like Davii, these guys will get their just punishments. but before two troublemakers from past experiences start threads like this, well, I'd get banned sticking up for the guys out there before I'd let people crucify them here. The media has made every marine and soldier look bad and it's all political. Yes there is every walk of life that joins the military, but 99% of them are there to serve their country and the media picks and chooses what to report.

Let the soldiers have a fair trial and if they did it then pick them apart until then I stick to what I believe, if you don't have anything good to say about the military then keep it to yourself unless guilt has been proven. Most people here don't understand the military and get their resources from the media. :duh: How is their opinion legimate! And LDB, this is not being hostile but I'm not polite regarding these issues, so I'd rahter you not exaggerate the story. Until then I''ll be here to stick up for my brothers and sisters in the military and at the same time following the COC's. ;)

Nomad,

Nobody is being tried on a bronco website. I believe if you view everyone's response you will see the majority of people saying "if they are guilty." The jury is still out. bc and whodey are allowed to have their own opinions and they are allowed to express it...although neither outright said the soldiers were guilty.

You cannot expect every person to have the same opinion as you and you cannot get upset about it when they post articles that you don't like. Their opinion is legitimate because it is their opinion. It doesn't matter that they never served in the military. They are still entitled to their own opinion and they are still free to discuss it...well, within the limitations of the P&R rule.

See, this is the problem with P&R...and I am not singling you out in this Nomad. Most of us have done it. We all want to justify our rudeness by saying that it was someones else's fault for making this thread. Bah. There are ways to get your point across...to defend your view...without resulting in rudeness. We need to stop trying to blame other people for the way we react. If you feel a thread or a post is in bad nature or is in violation of the P&R or other board rules...report it to us. Don't respond to it...especially if you feel that your response is a board violation. If you guys would learn to respond to each other like adults and remain civil then maybe...just maybe...Admin would eventually allow P&R discussions back. I am not saying that he ever will...but if we want him to change his mind then we need to show that we are adults capable of having adult discussions.

Jared

08-09-2006, 07:58 AM

So unless they have reliable evidence let them serve their country without the backseat drivers who has never touched a gun - like you.

You don't know if he has ever touched a gun.

And even if that were true, as stated, it is immaterial to whether or not he can have an opinion. If that were the case, then only ex soldiers should be allowed to vote and everyone else should not.

Everyone, This will be my first, and ONLY post here.

Posting current news is acceptable.

Posting something to the effect of "If they are guilty, I hope they are punished" is acceptable. That is simply an opinion of your hope for justice.

Having an issue with someone's opinion because of what your percieve as their political world view while discussing the news is NOT acceptable.

This is your only warning.

I will summarily hand out permanent bans with no PM, no email, no further warnings, as THIS serves as the warning to all participants in this thread.
If you attack, belittle, make snide comments, or otherwise behave like an immature child and violate the COC, this thread will be closed and actions will be taken.

As LDB said, topics would come back if they were handled in a more mature manner.

HolyDiver

08-09-2006, 08:16 AM

You don't know if he has ever touched a gun.

And even if that were true, as stated, it is immaterial to whether or not he can have an opinion. If that were the case, then only ex soldiers should be allowed to vote and everyone else should not.

Everyone, This will be my first, and ONLY post here.

Posting current news is acceptable.

Posting something to the effect of "If they are guilty, I hope they are punished" is acceptable. That is simply an opinion of your hope for justice.

Having an issue with someone's opinion because of what your percieve as their political world view while discussing the news is NOT acceptable.

This is your only warning.

I will summarily hand out permanent bans with no PM, no email, no further warnings, as THIS serves as the warning to all participants in this thread.
If you attack, belittle, make snide comments, or otherwise behave like an immature child and violate the COC, this thread will be closed and actions will be taken.

As LDB said, topics would come back if they were handled in a more mature manner.

I think you should have ended that post with a cross bones and skeleton symbol............LOL !!!!!!!!!!! ...............Opinions..............I've been around too many people that really get upset if you don't agree with them. On another site I go to, I am almost the only one, that does not agree about certain things our current president has done and is doing..................but some of these same guys will be at a Bronco party in Missouri to watch the Bronco/Chief game together.................We know we disagree on alot of subjects, but that doesn't stand in our way of having alot of fun watching a Bronco game together and drinking many beers together........................ I mean, I don't hold it against those guys that they are not as smart as I am.....................Plus, alot of them are in their 40's......................so, their minds are not firing on all cylinders.

WhoDeyBengals

08-09-2006, 09:48 AM

I think you should have ended that post with a cross bones and skeleton symbol............LOL !!!!!!!!!!! ...............Opinions..............I've been around too many people that really get upset if you don't agree with them. On another site I go to, I am almost the only one, that does not agree about certain things our current president has done and is doing..................but some of these same guys will be at a Bronco party in Missouri to watch the Bronco/Chief game together.................We know we disagree on alot of subjects, but that doesn't stand in our way of having alot of fun watching a Bronco game together and drinking many beers together........................ I mean, I don't hold it against those guys that they are not as smart as I am.....................Plus, alot of them are in their 40's......................so, their minds are not firing on all cylinders.
The bold part made me chuckle. ;)

That being said, you've got a great point, and I think that we all need to remember why we came to this board to begin with, and that's a passion for the NFL. Since the political threads were closed, I've actually made my peace with most of the people I used to get into heated arguments with. Hell, I didn't even know that rcsodak likes the Cincinnati Reds (although I guess I should have known! :laugh: ), and now we get along pretty well. I enjoy the posts of several users that I used to not be able to stand, and I'd actually consider a few of the conservatives on this board friends, despite our differences.

We can disagree and still be friends, guys! :beer: