Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 48
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Calgary, AB
    Posts
    439

    John Fox/Dennis Allen coaching philosophy

    This thread is intended to get a grasp on how a Fox/Allen defense will look for us. It is intended to get contributions and feedback, so that we can get a better idea on how some of our current players will be used and who we may draft.

    I'm going to start this off by stealing a great report on Fox from another board:

    http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB...php?p=11447057

    After researching the defensive schemes that John Fox prefers, I have come to the following conclusions. I have broken down, position by position, the types of player that I believe Fox targets.

    DE - Tall, lanky and athletic, but more than anything, a guy that can consistently get pressure on the QB. I read some where that running backs on average, league wide, only run around the OT's 9% of the time. So, it makes sense that Fox targets DE's that can get pressure over DE's that are great at containing the run.

    DT - Other than last season, nearly every Fox defense was anchored by two massive DT's. He generally doesnt expect much of a pass rush out of his tackles, but rather wants them to engulf the interior OL and allow his pass rushing DE's a 1 on 1 opportunity. They are generally 315+ in weight, and can stuff the run effective enough to allow his MLB the opportunity to drop into a zone coverage and make a play on the ball (Ex. Jon Beason has a total of 29 PD's and 8 INT's, this is certainly partly because Beason is a beast, but also because he is worrying less about a runner getting through the DT's)

    WLB/SLB - Fox seems to use his WLB and SLB pretty similarily. Obviously the SLB is going to have to be big/tough enough to guard the TE from time to time, but he puts both in zone cover alot and expects plays on the ball. He actually seems to use his SLB/WLB decently often at rushing the passer, so a guy with the speed/size ratio to blow by a OT is always a plus (Ex. Thomas Davis is 6'0, 240 and has a small pass rush move repotouire, but he gets a few sacks a year on speed rushing alone, similar too with James Anderson). He salivates over speed at the LB position. Look at Thomas Davis (4.52 40 at 6'0, 240lbs), James Anderson (4.48 40 at 6'2 235lbs), & Jason Williams (4.49 40 at 6'1 244lbs). Nic Harris (4.86 40) is the slowest, but as a former S, he has the coverage instincts to make up for his slower time. Also, Fox has no problem converting college safetys into OLB's, as he did with Davis and Harris.

    CB - A bit of research indicates that Fox prefers versatile CB's. Guys that are equally as good in zone coverage as they are in man. It seems like he wants playmakers, as most of his starting CB's end up with a good deal of pass deflections and INT's. This could also be a result of allowing his CB's to play zone more often, facing the QB and reading him. Finally, he wants guys that are physical, although he doesnt seem to trend towards press corners. He also seems to rarely use his CB's to rush the passer.

    S - Here he has recently trended, overwhelmingly, towards converted CB's. He doesnt use a traditional 'in the box' CB, but rather prefers two guys that can excel in zone coverage, and make plays on the ball.

    Overall, it seems like he prefers rush specialist at DE, huge space eaters at DT, a pair of versatile SLB/MLB's that have elite speed to cover and the size to rush the passer, a well rounded MLB that is good in coverage, CB's that are equally adept at zone and man and a pair of converted safteys that can excel in coverage and make plays deep.

    Here are some prospects in this draft that, IMO, would fit his scheme greatly...

    DE
    - Robert Quinn (Top 8)
    -Aldon Smith (Top 20)
    -Da'Quan Bowers (Top 25)
    -Ryan Kerrigan (Top 25)
    -Brooks Reed (Bubble 1st rounder)
    -Jabaal Sheard (Bubble 1st rounder)
    -Ugo Chinasa (4th to 5th rounder)
    -Mario Addison (6th to 7th rounder)

    DT
    -Marcell Dareus (Top 5)
    -Phil Taylor (1st round)
    -Stephen Paea (1st to 2nd rounder)
    -Kendrick Ellis (2nd to 4th rounder)
    -Anthony Gray (3rd to 7th rounder)
    -Jerrell Powe (4th to 6th rounder)
    -Sione Fua (4th to 6th rounder)
    -Ian Williams (4th to 6th rounder)
    -Sealver Siliga (5th to 7th rounder)
    -Lawton Scott (7th to UDFA)

    SLB/WLB
    -Von Miller (Top 5)
    -Bruce Carter (3rd round)
    -Mason Foster (3rd round)
    -Mario Harvey (4th round)
    -Ross Homan (5th round)
    -Robert Sands (5th round)
    -Lawrence Wilson (5th to 6th round)
    -Michael Morgan (6th to UDFA)

    MIKE
    -Quan Sturdivant (2nd to 3rd round)
    -Martez Wilson (3rd round)
    -Mario Harvey (3rd round)
    -Colin McCarthy (4th to 5th round)

    CB
    -Patrick Peterson (Top 5)
    -Prince Aukamara (Top 8)
    -Davon House (2nd round)
    (Most CB's fit Fox'es scheme, so I will stop here)

    S
    -Ras-I Dowling (2nd round)
    -Aaron Williams (2nd round)
    -Rahim Moore (2nd to 3rd round)
    -Quinton Carter (3rd round)
    -Deunta Williams (4th round)

    Great effort went into this, and if you are a member here please let me know so I can cp you!!

    Based on this analysis I do not see us picking a DT at #2. Fox traditionally uses big run stuffing DT's that take on multiple blockers. Guys like Taylor, Ellis, Jenkins, Fua would fill those roles in later rounds.

    I've heard this said before about CB's m (must be good at zone and man), and is a big reason why I don't think Peterson is in the cards.

    By this report Ayers is not the ideal LDE in a Fox scheme, but I believe he will give him a chance to show what he can do on the line.

    Based on this analysis, I would almost be Von Miller is the pick. He will place him at SLB, which will help compensate the ideal pass rushing talent Fox is left with Ayers on that side. It gives him the speed he wants out of the LB spot.

    Also do not be surprised that A.Williams is picked if slips to second round. Fox seems to love converted CB's playing S.

    Does anyone know much about Allen's philosophy and how that will mesh with Fox's?
    From Tebow to Manning! How do we get so lucky to have two men, beyond football, that inspire all of us to be the best we can be

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    SoCal - The OC....
    Posts
    1,822
    great info. I am gonna spend some time thinking about it and post later.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    the treasure valley, Idaho
    Posts
    15,197
    Their philosophies are "kick your butt and take the ball".

    Thank you to my grandfather jetrazor for being a veteran of the armed forces!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Edge of Orange
    Posts
    1,506
    Great job on the research.

    I know that both Allen and Fox are quoted as saying they are going to tailor the defense to the personell, instead of the other way around.

    I would expect a morphing defense (4-3, 3-4, 5-2, 6-2, etc.) depending on the down and distance situation.

    Any of the presumed top five defensive players could have an immediate impact (Fairley, Dareus, Miller, Peterson, Quinn).

    I don't think they will draft a player to fit a mold from the past. I think they will draft where we are the weakest, DL, LB, and Safety and will attempt to make the pieces fit.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    6,081
    I read that Allen is a guy that is very non traditional in his schemes.

    All 11 guys need to be capable of getting to the passer, but the back 4 need to be able to make plays, most importantly.

    It seems like the common theme is get your mediocre guys who will just stuff the run at the DTs, get good pressure on the QB from DEs, and let the DBs and roving LBs make plays.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    6,081
    BTW, McBath is a converted CB to S. Fox most likely targeted McBath and I think its safe to assume he will get playing time by default.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Calgary, AB
    Posts
    439
    I read that Allen is a guy that is very non traditional in his schemes.

    All 11 guys need to be capable of getting to the passer, but the back 4 need to be able to make plays, most importantly.

    It seems like the common theme is get your mediocre guys who will just stuff the run at the DTs, get good pressure on the QB from DEs, and let the DBs and roving LBs make plays.
    BTW, McBath is a converted CB to S. Fox most likely targeted McBath and I think its safe to assume he will get playing time by default.
    I love those two words "non traditional".

    I like McBath...just the damn injuries...good to know fox was interested in him.

    Do the safeties also blitz a lot with Allen's schemes?
    From Tebow to Manning! How do we get so lucky to have two men, beyond football, that inspire all of us to be the best we can be

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    MiLe HigH
    Posts
    151
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor View Post
    Their philosophies are "kick your butt and take the ball".



    LOL
    [CENTER][SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    [FONT="Comic Sans MS"][B]Jay Cutler - 2 QTRS
    Lebron James - 3 QTRS
    [U]TIM TEBOW - One and Only the 4th QTR[/U]
    Being Clutch When it Matter Most - [U]TEBOWLESS[/U] [/B][/FONT][/CENTER]

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
    Posts
    13,349
    Quote Originally Posted by MarshallMoss View Post
    DE - Tall [oh no, Jarvis Moss??], lanky [Jarvis Moss?? Really??] and athletic [damn, it's Jarvis Moss!!] , but more than anything, a guy that can consistently get pressure on the QB [pheeew... It's not Jarvis Moss].
    I'm happy with the switch back to the 4-3. I think the defense will play better this way, and it will be easier to draft DL and LB in the near future.

    I know the defense will get faster and play more zone coverage. But we need a lot of investment in the DL to be able to generate pass rush mainly with the front four.
    http://forums.denverbroncos.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=349348&dateline=13355  71607

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Jack-U-ville Florida
    Posts
    10,566
    Quote Originally Posted by MarshallMoss View Post
    This thread is intended to get a grasp on how a Fox/Allen defense will look for us. It is intended to get contributions and feedback, so that we can get a better idea on how some of our current players will be used and who we may draft.

    I'm going to start this off by stealing a great report on Fox from another board:

    http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB...php?p=11447057

    After researching the defensive schemes that John Fox prefers, I have come to the following conclusions. I have broken down, position by position, the types of player that I believe Fox targets.

    DE - Tall, lanky and athletic, but more than anything, a guy that can consistently get pressure on the QB. I read some where that running backs on average, league wide, only run around the OT's 9% of the time. So, it makes sense that Fox targets DE's that can get pressure over DE's that are great at containing the run.
    Good thread, but I disagree with your opinions on the type of DE's Fox targets. I've also been trying to figure Fox out, and this is what I came up with. Fox like short, fast, and athletic DE's. If you look at the Panthers DE's, most of them fits this mold.

    Everette Brown: 6'1 256
    Charles Johnson: 6'2 275
    Eric Norwood: 6'1 241
    Hilee Taylor: 6'2 250

    Tyler Brayton: 6'6 280
    Greg Hardy: 6'4 277

    So IMO, this explains why Fox see's DOOM as an everydown DE (although DOOM is 5'11) and I really believe that David Veikune (6'2 256) has a legit chance of being DOOM's backup.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    6,081
    Quote Originally Posted by JayJack View Post
    Good thread, but I disagree with your opinions on the type of DE's Fox targets. I've also been trying to figure Fox out, and this is what I came up with. Fox like short, fast, and athletic DE's. If you look at the Panthers DE's, most of them fits this mold.

    Everette Brown: 6'1 256
    Charles Johnson: 6'2 275
    Eric Norwood: 6'1 241
    Hilee Taylor: 6'2 250

    Tyler Brayton: 6'6 280
    Greg Hardy: 6'4 277

    So IMO, this explains why Fox see's DOOM as an everydown DE (although DOOM is 5'11) and I really believe that David Veikune (6'2 256) has a legit chance of being DOOM's backup.
    I've already voiced my thoughts on Veikune in other threads, but I'll say it again--

    Veikune will suprise a lot of people. He's a lot like Ayers actually; dominated in college out of the 43 DE, the Browns passed up on guys like LeSean McCoy to make him a 34 OLB. It was a failed experiment, Denver picked him up, and somehow, he perfectly fits what the new coach wants to do.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Ready and Waiting on the Sidelines...
    Posts
    1,633
    Nice analysis, but I fail to see how he won't take a DT with the #2. Just because he uses "big bodies" that can be found in later rounds? We've had "big bodies" for several seasons now, and all those big bodies do is sit there and let the runners go right by them. Having size is part of the equation, but reading the play, shedding the block, and having the agility to get in position to stop the ball carrier are also very much important.

    You do realize that the very first season Fox took over at Carolina, he inherited a budding all-pro Kris Jenkins, and then drafted Julius Peppers with the second pick in the first round and subsequently transformed that Defense into something special right? Fox knows the value of defensive linemen, and just finding a big body to put at DT does not cut it. Take a look at the top ten defenses from last season. I bet at least 80% of them at least have one DT that is considered top 10 at either NT or UT. They also all have a great pass rushing DE.

    We have our pass rushing DE in Doom, but we severely lack a stud at DT, and a random big body taken late the first day or later is not very comforting. Especially since we currently have a total of one DT's on the roster, aka, no depth to fall back on.


    Now Von Miller may very well be the pick at #2, but you better bet Fox would do that if and only if he knew he was getting "his guy" later in the draft or he had a FA / Trade ready to go. Seeing as we do not currently have a CBA and subsequently, Free Agency, I wouldn't bet that we have anyone lined up yet.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Ready and Waiting on the Sidelines...
    Posts
    1,633
    Quote Originally Posted by JayJack View Post

    So IMO, this explains why Fox see's DOOM as an everydown DE (although DOOM is 5'11) and I really believe that David Veikune (6'2 256) has a legit chance of being DOOM's backup.
    Don't forget about Jason Hunter. He'll be in the mix of things too, he looked fairly decent at Doom's spot as outside linebacker in the 3-4, but he'll kick down and probably back doom up now in the 4-3. Veikune may back up Ayers though or Hunter even.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Calgary, AB
    Posts
    439
    Nice analysis, but I fail to see how he won't take a DT with the #2. Just because he uses "big bodies" that can be found in later rounds? We've had "big bodies" for several seasons now, and all those big bodies do is sit there and let the runners go right by them. Having size is part of the equation, but reading the play, shedding the block, and having the agility to get in position to stop the ball carrier are also very much important.

    You do realize that the very first season Fox took over at Carolina, he inherited a budding all-pro Kris Jenkins, and then drafted Julius Peppers with the second pick in the first round and subsequently transformed that Defense into something special right? Fox knows the value of defensive linemen, and just finding a big body to put at DT does not cut it. Take a look at the top ten defenses from last season. I bet at least 80% of them at least have one DT that is considered top 10 at either NT or UT. They also all have a great pass rushing DE.

    We have our pass rushing DE in Doom, but we severely lack a stud at DT, and a random big body taken late the first day or later is not very comforting. Especially since we currently have a total of one DT's on the roster, aka, no depth to fall back on.


    Now Von Miller may very well be the pick at #2, but you better bet Fox would do that if and only if he knew he was getting "his guy" later in the draft or he had a FA / Trade ready to go. Seeing as we do not currently have a CBA and subsequently, Free Agency, I wouldn't bet that we have anyone lined up yet.
    Before the above analysis I believed Von Miller was the best fit...because of the great DT talent available in the later rounds. I never said we were going to just put space eating big body fillers in there...of course we want well rounded above average to maybe great talent. We never invested a first round pick in a DT since Trevor Pryce...and that first round talent is there for us in the second rd. The above analysis just confirms to me, that a DT at #2 would be a possible reach for a Fox defense, considering what else is available.

    By the way, the NY Giants do not have top 10 DT's and they are one of the most feared D's in football...bringing pressure from the ends and lbs(sound familiar?)...yes the Giants who stopped the #1 offence in NFL history to win the SB.
    From Tebow to Manning! How do we get so lucky to have two men, beyond football, that inspire all of us to be the best we can be

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Jack-U-ville Florida
    Posts
    10,566
    Quote Originally Posted by hardcorebronco View Post
    Don't forget about Jason Hunter. He'll be in the mix of things too, he looked fairly decent at Doom's spot as outside linebacker in the 3-4, but he'll kick down and probably back doom up now in the 4-3. Veikune may back up Ayers though or Hunter even.
    I haven't forgot about J-Hunt at all. In my post I was pointing out that Fox have a thing for shorter DE's. J-Hunt is 6'4 271, so that's why I didn't mention him. But I do believe he will make the team also. I see Hunter more as Ayers backup and Veikune DOOM's backup.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  



TRUSTe Certified Privacy Seal