View Poll Results: Elway or Manning

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  • Elway

    45 76.27%
  • Manning

    14 23.73%
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  1. #616
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    Quote Originally Posted by samparnell View Post
    Four of the top ten career ypa guys played before Montana including the top three on the list.
    Ya when throwing the ball 25 times in a game was really airing it out
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  2. #617
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHSalute View Post
    Ya when throwing the ball 25 times in a game was really airing it out
    Is that supposed to be some kind of point? YPA is one QB stat that transcends eras.
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

  3. #618
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    Quote Originally Posted by samparnell View Post
    Is that supposed to be some kind of point? YPA is one QB stat that transcends eras.
    Meaningless stat as far as I'm concerned. Brady has exceed 8 yards per attempt twice in his entire career. Rodgers has just come off one of his best years and averaged 7.26. The only true measure of a QBs success is TDs thrown vs Ints not thrown. Carr, was so statistically average, but look at the praise he gets. Why? Lots of TDs and few Ints.

    Point was, that if you are only throwing the ball 15 times and those throws are all 20 yards or more down field, the YPA is going to be higher, particularly when it was 9 in the box to stop the run. The pass has become an extension of the run game. Hitting a bunch of 4-5 yard passes is going to bring YPA down...just don't see how it transcends.
    Last edited by MHSalute; 05-02-2017 at 03:17 PM.
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  4. #619
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    John Clayton ranks Peyton above Elway, and Brady ahead of everyone.
    http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/1...st-nfl-qb-ever

  5. #620
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheArtofManning View Post
    John Clayton ranks Peyton above Elway, and Brady ahead of everyone.
    http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/1...st-nfl-qb-ever

    Clayton has Elway ranked at 6th that's too low.

  6. #621
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chillez View Post
    Clayton has Elway ranked at 6th that's too low.
    Did you see the 5 above him? that's hard to break into....Brady, Montana, Graham, and Unitas....WOW!!! ( i wouldn't have Manning at 3 though...not even top 5)


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  7. #622
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHSalute View Post
    Meaningless stat as far as I'm concerned. Brady has exceed 8 yards per attempt twice in his entire career. Rodgers has just come off one of his best years and averaged 7.26. The only true measure of a QBs success is TDs thrown vs Ints not thrown. Carr, was so statistically average, but look at the praise he gets. Why? Lots of TDs and few Ints.

    Point was, that if you are only throwing the ball 15 times and those throws are all 20 yards or more down field, the YPA is going to be higher, particularly when it was 9 in the box to stop the run. The pass has become an extension of the run game. Hitting a bunch of 4-5 yard passes is going to bring YPA down...just don't see how it transcends.
    In post #614 you pointed out how rules changes have made it easier for QBs and receivers and their stats. Now you say ypa is meaningless because it happened long ago? Make up your mind.

    YPA transcends eras because it isn't concerned with how many games were played or how many pass attempts there were. It also transcends your meaningless stat of TD/INT in which you contradict yourself in the post about how rules changes have made it easier to put up gaudy passing stats.

    You're a QB in a game. You throw some passes and they gain some yards. Divide the yards by the attempts. Pretty basic and the only valid statistical comparison that transcends ninety-eight years of pro football.

    The first QBs to put up passing stats similar to today were Johnny Unitas and Frank Tripucka when he finished his career in Denver. He and Lionel Taylor were the first to compile passing stats similar to today in a fourteen game season. Around the same time, Unitas did it in a twelve game season.

    I guess you're just not a student of football history. Too bad. You could learn a lot from it.
    Last edited by samparnell; 05-02-2017 at 05:38 PM.
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

  8. #623
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    Quote Originally Posted by broncos SB2010 View Post
    Did you see the 5 above him? that's hard to break into....Brady, Montana, Graham, and Unitas....WOW!!! ( i wouldn't have Manning at 3 though...not even top 5)
    Elway is above Graham and Unitas to me but than again I never watched either play it was way before my time.

  9. #624
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chillez View Post
    Clayton has Elway ranked at 6th that's too low.
    It's an interesting list. Sid Luckman belongs on it.
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

  10. #625
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    Quote Originally Posted by broncos SB2010 View Post
    Did you see the 5 above him? that's hard to break into....Brady, Montana, Graham, and Unitas....WOW!!! ( i wouldn't have Manning at 3 though...not even top 5)
    Bart Starr doesn't get enough credit. He was 9-1 in the playoffs and won five championships including the first two Super Bowls. He called his own plays.
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

  11. #626
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    Quote Originally Posted by samparnell View Post
    Bart Starr doesn't get enough credit. He was 9-1 in the playoffs and won five championships including the first two Super Bowls. He called his own plays.
    agreed. I am a big fan of Terry Bradshaw. 4 SB wins and called his own plays as well. He also played his best in the SBs. Then there is the immortal Slingin Sammy Baugh who also wasn't on the list.


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  12. #627
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    Quote Originally Posted by broncos SB2010 View Post
    agreed. I am a big fan of Terry Bradshaw. 4 SB wins and called his own plays as well. He also played his best in the SBs. Then there is the immortal Slingin Sammy Baugh who also wasn't on the list.
    As far as I can tell, Sammy Baugh was the first passer whom we would call a quarterback although his position in the Single Wing offense the Redskins used was Halfback.

    Baugh played at TCU under Leo "Dutch" Meyer who was head football coach in Fort Worth from 1934-52. He ran an offense which took the Single Wing and spread it out. It left two guys lined up about five yards behind the ball in what many would recognize as the "shotgun". When Meyer retired from football, he wrote a book called Spread Formation Football. It's a classic and pretty expensive.

    Meyer's offense was often called the Southwestern Spread and it has an uncanny resemblance to the WCO. Baugh said Meyer stressed the three Ss in the passing attack: short, safe and sure.

    When Sammy played in Washington, he ran the Single Wing which was still the predominant offense in high school, college and the NFL at the time. If he had quarterbacked the Southwestern Spread, it might have made NFL history. Steve Owen toyed with the idea of running the Southwestern Spread in New York, but he had success with his A Formation, which was a flipped Single Wing with irregular line splits, so he didn't use it.

    Throwing from the regular Single Wing was a challenge because the ball is shared, but Baugh made it work as a great passer. He also punted and played some defense.
    Last edited by samparnell; 05-03-2017 at 05:46 AM.
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

  13. #628
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    My overall point, was Clayton has Manning above Elway. I've seen many of these lists from pundits and the like, and Manning is often above Elway. I've even see Manning as #1 on some lists.
    It is what it is. Many of you on here probably have him in the #6-10 range. No problem.
    If the metrics are stats (even with consideration of era) and Championships....then our boy Brady is #1 all time. If he's not #1, then we have to use other considerations, which is fine. But once we start using other considerations, then the lists can take off in all sorts of directions.
    Do we continue to denigrate Marino for having never won a Championship, even though we clearly know how good he was? Do we elevate Bradshaw and Aikman for getting 4 and 3 respectively, even though they were obviously on dominant teams?
    Do we downgrade Montana a bit, because he was on such great teams with a HOF head coach? Bart Starr? Five Championships, but did he do much? Did he HAVE to do much, playing for the Lombardi era Packers?
    Otto Graham? The 1950s Browns were loaded with talent and had another HOF head coach.

    It goes on and on. Regarding Elway, he was clearly one of the most physically gifted QBs I've ever seen. Huge arm and a powerful will to win. Would he have won more Championships playing for the 49ers of that era? Of course.
    So where does this leave us? Fundamentally, you cannot separate a QB from his teams, his coaches, and of course, his era. Some guys were just more lucky than other guys. I happen to believe that Brady has been very fortunate. The team was 11-5 under Cassel, and 3-1 this past year with Garapplolo and the #3 guy. What team can do that? Most teams collapse when they lose a top tier QB.

    As far as Peyton, the biggest detraction I see, is that while he had numerous great playoff games, he never stood out in a SB. He played in 4 of them and "won" 2. But he never "lit it up" in any of the SBs, and that more than anything seems to damage his legacy among the fans and pundits.
    He did get to 27 postseason games (still #2 on that list), and was in the playoffs with 5 different coaches (Mora, Dungy, Caldwell, Fox, Kubiak). Went to SBs with 4 of those coaches. None of them were great coaches IMO.
    He "won" 14 postseason games, still a very respectable number. He played the game more with his brain, than his body. He had to. His body was never anything special.
    He also was able to come back from spinal fusion surgery, and play 4 more years, all effectively, except that last season.

    Its a great legacy, but in the end, Brady will be considered the greater of the two, and yeah, it bugs me a bit. I have always though Peyton's career would have turned out much the same, regardless of where he had played. He seemed to be able to make any decent team, a threat. Brady? What would he have accomplished had he been drafted by "fill in average team here"?
    I always ask that question..

  14. #629
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheArtofManning View Post
    My overall point, was Clayton has Manning above Elway. I've seen many of these lists from pundits and the like, and Manning is often above Elway. I've even see Manning as #1 on some lists.
    It is what it is. Many of you on here probably have him in the #6-10 range. No problem.
    If the metrics are stats (even with consideration of era) and Championships....then our boy Brady is #1 all time. If he's not #1, then we have to use other considerations, which is fine. But once we start using other considerations, then the lists can take off in all sorts of directions.
    Do we continue to denigrate Marino for having never won a Championship, even though we clearly know how good he was? Do we elevate Bradshaw and Aikman for getting 4 and 3 respectively, even though they were obviously on dominant teams?
    Do we downgrade Montana a bit, because he was on such great teams with a HOF head coach? Bart Starr? Five Championships, but did he do much? Did he HAVE to do much, playing for the Lombardi era Packers?
    Otto Graham? The 1950s Browns were loaded with talent and had another HOF head coach.

    It goes on and on. Regarding Elway, he was clearly one of the most physically gifted QBs I've ever seen. Huge arm and a powerful will to win. Would he have won more Championships playing for the 49ers of that era? Of course.
    So where does this leave us? Fundamentally, you cannot separate a QB from his teams, his coaches, and of course, his era. Some guys were just more lucky than other guys. I happen to believe that Brady has been very fortunate. The team was 11-5 under Cassel, and 3-1 this past year with Garapplolo and the #3 guy. What team can do that? Most teams collapse when they lose a top tier QB.

    As far as Peyton, the biggest detraction I see, is that while he had numerous great playoff games, he never stood out in a SB. He played in 4 of them and "won" 2. But he never "lit it up" in any of the SBs, and that more than anything seems to damage his legacy among the fans and pundits.
    He did get to 27 postseason games (still #2 on that list), and was in the playoffs with 5 different coaches (Mora, Dungy, Caldwell, Fox, Kubiak). Went to SBs with 4 of those coaches. None of them were great coaches IMO.
    He "won" 14 postseason games, still a very respectable number. He played the game more with his brain, than his body. He had to. His body was never anything special.
    He also was able to come back from spinal fusion surgery, and play 4 more years, all effectively, except that last season.

    Its a great legacy, but in the end, Brady will be considered the greater of the two, and yeah, it bugs me a bit. I have always though Peyton's career would have turned out much the same, regardless of where he had played. He seemed to be able to make any decent team, a threat. Brady? What would he have accomplished had he been drafted by "fill in average team here"?
    I always ask that question..
    We can only know what is not what might have been and it's endless possibilities.

  15. #630
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheArtofManning View Post
    My overall point, was Clayton has Manning above Elway. I've seen many of these lists from pundits and the like, and Manning is often above Elway. I've even see Manning as #1 on some lists.
    It is what it is. Many of you on here probably have him in the #6-10 range. No problem.
    If the metrics are stats (even with consideration of era) and Championships....then our boy Brady is #1 all time. If he's not #1, then we have to use other considerations, which is fine. But once we start using other considerations, then the lists can take off in all sorts of directions.
    Do we continue to denigrate Marino for having never won a Championship, even though we clearly know how good he was? Do we elevate Bradshaw and Aikman for getting 4 and 3 respectively, even though they were obviously on dominant teams?
    Do we downgrade Montana a bit, because he was on such great teams with a HOF head coach? Bart Starr? Five Championships, but did he do much? Did he HAVE to do much, playing for the Lombardi era Packers?
    Otto Graham? The 1950s Browns were loaded with talent and had another HOF head coach.

    It goes on and on. Regarding Elway, he was clearly one of the most physically gifted QBs I've ever seen. Huge arm and a powerful will to win. Would he have won more Championships playing for the 49ers of that era? Of course.
    So where does this leave us? Fundamentally, you cannot separate a QB from his teams, his coaches, and of course, his era. Some guys were just more lucky than other guys. I happen to believe that Brady has been very fortunate. The team was 11-5 under Cassel, and 3-1 this past year with Garapplolo and the #3 guy. What team can do that? Most teams collapse when they lose a top tier QB.

    As far as Peyton, the biggest detraction I see, is that while he had numerous great playoff games, he never stood out in a SB. He played in 4 of them and "won" 2. But he never "lit it up" in any of the SBs, and that more than anything seems to damage his legacy among the fans and pundits.
    He did get to 27 postseason games (still #2 on that list), and was in the playoffs with 5 different coaches (Mora, Dungy, Caldwell, Fox, Kubiak). Went to SBs with 4 of those coaches. None of them were great coaches IMO.
    He "won" 14 postseason games, still a very respectable number. He played the game more with his brain, than his body. He had to. His body was never anything special.
    He also was able to come back from spinal fusion surgery, and play 4 more years, all effectively, except that last season.

    Its a great legacy, but in the end, Brady will be considered the greater of the two, and yeah, it bugs me a bit. I have always though Peyton's career would have turned out much the same, regardless of where he had played. He seemed to be able to make any decent team, a threat. Brady? What would he have accomplished had he been drafted by "fill in average team here"?
    I always ask that question..
    Luck is certainly a factor with great players. Elway perhaps did more with less than any great QB, at least until the Shanahan era. He didn't get the benefit of a Bill Walsh or a Jerry Rice. Marino did have a great coach and some great WRs early in his career, but never had a dominant RB. As far as Manning, he almost always had good offensive talent around him, but the defense was sometimes lacking. He also played for some good head coaches, but none of them compare with Belichick. Speaking of the Patriots, they are also masters of the salary cap era. They know how to find unheralded players who fit their system, guys like Troy Brown, Tedy Bruschi, Wes Welker, and Julian Edelman. There's no doubt that the overall excellence of the New England franchise has greatly aided Brady.

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