View Poll Results: Elway or Manning

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  • Elway

    45 76.27%
  • Manning

    14 23.73%
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  1. #646
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    Quote Originally Posted by samparnell View Post
    Sammy Baugh, Sid Luckman, Otto Graham, Y.A. Tittle, Norm Van Brocklin, Bobby Layne, Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr, Len Dawson, Bob Griese

    History is a knowledge/information subject which is acquired through study.

    The post which I questioned said "all time great". That's a term which is seen here often, but not defined. If one is talking about pro football, it means in the history of the game. The NFL began in 1920 and includes teams that began in the AAFC and AFL. Any statement of "the greatest of all time" must necessarily include the whole history of the leagues.

    As for my Mom, yes she was proud of me. She told that me before she passed away five years ago a week after her ninety-fourth birthday. How's your Mom? Well, I hope. Don't forget Mother's Day.
    I'm sorry coach.


    CP bet with NVthosebroncos that Forrest Lamp will be a solid day 1 starter, barring injury

  2. #647
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheArtofManning View Post
    Montana's stats are way better than Elway's it's just a fact. Carrying three teams to SBs is a subjective argument. I happen to agree with it, but it's still subjective. That's the problem. The TEAM. If Elway carried these teams to a SB, so be it. Maybe Bradshaw's teams carried HIM there. Who's to say? Maybe Marino's teams never amounted to squat, so he has no Rings.
    This argument can go on and on. If the team is used as an excuse for failure, surely it should be used as a reason for success?
    You didn't actually refute what I said. I listed several stats where Elway is superior to Montana and you just repeated your claim. At least in those particular categories, you are objectively incorrect. If Montana's stats are "way better" than Elway's, give some actual proof.

  3. #648
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    Quote Originally Posted by RainyTX View Post
    I'm as big an Elway fan as the next guy, but he wouldn't have sniffed a SB win if Terrell David hadn't come along. Having a 2,000 yard rusher in your back pocket makes it a little easier to pick apart a defense. My unbiased opinion, Elway doesn't break the top 3 in all time QB's. I hate to say it, but Brady sits at #1 followed by Manning then Montana. Feel free to flame, just my honest opinion.
    Brady wouldn't have sniffed any rings without Belichick and a great New England franchise. Montana wouldn't have sniffed any rings without Walsh and all that talent surrounding him. Bradshaw wouldn't have sniffed any rings without a great coach and multiple HOF players around him. Manning wouldn't have sniffed any rings without great offensive talent around him on both the Broncos and Colts, not to mention a Broncos defense that gifted him a 2nd ring in 2015.

  4. #649
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    Quote Originally Posted by samparnell View Post
    What do you know about the Lombardi Packers? Did you see them play in real time? What do you know about their offense? Ever read Lombardi's books? Do you know what kind of blocking they used in their rushing attack? Bart Starr was in the playoffs six seasons five of which the Packers won it all. In four of those years, his performance in the playoffs exceeded what he had done in the regular season. In view of the fact he called his own plays, I'd say he did a lot; 9-1 in the playoffs.

    Otto Graham played ten years, was in the league championship every year and won seven. I don't think I'll live long enough to see that happen again if it ever does. Paul Brown sent the plays in with Guards, but he didn't throw the passes, Otto did.
    Willing to admit, I don't know that much about them. I was around then though.
    When Graham played, and for most of Starr's career, it was, win your division and you are in the Championship game. One postseason game. A much simpler road than now. That's why you will never see it again. It's harder for a team to get to the promised land now.
    We are getting off point, in this thread, though.
    My biggest point I have been trying to make is this:
    It seems like Championships matter, until someone says they don't. Stats matter until someone says they don't.

    You (and I don't mean YOU), Cannot invoke "the team was dragged to a SB, by Elway", then turn around and say that Bradshaw (for example) won four SBs.Isn't it possible that the team got him there in the first place? Maybe the team won those 4 SBs?
    It's a disingenuous argument.Either the team matters or it doesn't. We readily diss Marino, because he has no Rings. Well, Elway was very close to having no Rings either.
    Enter Terrell Davis.
    I get that people on here don't care much for Manning. He's not the "tough guy" at least outwardly. Still, playing in the NFL for 18 seasons, and coming back from spinal fusion surgery, does display some level of toughness, I feel.
    Yes, he may have made more business decisions than some other QBs.

    So......Is Brady the greatest QB ever? He has 5 Rings and great stats.
    I would be curious on this board..........Who in NFL history ranks above Brady and why? It's essential to the conversation.

  5. #650
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheArtofManning View Post
    Willing to admit, I don't know that much about them. I was around then though.
    When Graham played, and for most of Starr's career, it was, win your division and you are in the Championship game. One postseason game. A much simpler road than now. That's why you will never see it again. It's harder for a team to get to the promised land now.
    We are getting off point, in this thread, though.
    My biggest point I have been trying to make is this:
    It seems like Championships matter, until someone says they don't. Stats matter until someone says they don't.

    You (and I don't mean YOU), Cannot invoke "the team was dragged to a SB, by Elway", then turn around and say that Bradshaw (for example) won four SBs.Isn't it possible that the team got him there in the first place? Maybe the team won those 4 SBs?
    It's a disingenuous argument.Either the team matters or it doesn't. We readily diss Marino, because he has no Rings. Well, Elway was very close to having no Rings either.
    Enter Terrell Davis.
    I get that people on here don't care much for Manning. He's not the "tough guy" at least outwardly. Still, playing in the NFL for 18 seasons, and coming back from spinal fusion surgery, does display some level of toughness, I feel.
    Yes, he may have made more business decisions than some other QBs.

    So......Is Brady the greatest QB ever? He has 5 Rings and great stats.
    I would be curious on this board..........Who in NFL history ranks above Brady and why? It's essential to the conversation.
    Who's better than Brady. Here's my case for Elway as the GOAT.

    1. Perhaps the most physically gifted QB of all time. A remarkable combination of arm strength, athleticism, and durability.

    2. In my eyes, the greatest playmaking QB of all time. Uncanny ability to make something happen when all seems lost. Renowned for clutch play and 4th quarter comebacks.

    3. Has great stats, despite what some may think. When he retired, he was #1 in wins, #2 in yards, and #3 in td passes. 9 time pro bowler.

    4. Has the hardware. 2 SB rings, 1 regular season MVP, and 1 SB MVP.

    5. Arguably did more with less than any elite QB. He was only really surrounded by great offensive talent at the end of his career. He took 3 teams to the SB in the 80s that were mediocre.

    6. Coaching. Brady has Belichick. Manning had HOFer Tony Dungy. Montana had Walsh. Marino had Shula. Bradshaw had Noll. Elway? He had Dan Reeves for much of his career, although he did finish with Shanahan.

    There you have it. What QB has Elway's combination of talent, stats, and SB rings? For my money, nobody.

  6. #651
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerontion View Post
    Who's better than Brady. Here's my case for Elway as the GOAT.

    1. Perhaps the most physically gifted QB of all time. A remarkable combination of arm strength, athleticism, and durability.

    2. In my eyes, the greatest playmaking QB of all time. Uncanny ability to make something happen when all seems lost. Renowned for clutch play and 4th quarter comebacks.

    3. Has great stats, despite what some may think. When he retired, he was #1 in wins, #2 in yards, and #3 in td passes. 9 time pro bowler.

    4. Has the hardware. 2 SB rings, 1 regular season MVP, and 1 SB MVP.

    5. Arguably did more with less than any elite QB. He was only really surrounded by great offensive talent at the end of his career. He took 3 teams to the SB in the 80s that were mediocre.

    6. Coaching. Brady has Belichick. Manning had HOFer Tony Dungy. Montana had Walsh. Marino had Shula. Bradshaw had Noll. Elway? He had Dan Reeves for much of his career, although he did finish with Shanahan.

    There you have it. What QB has Elway's combination of talent, stats, and SB rings? For my money, nobody.
    A good response. You could also add that Graham had Paul Brown and Starr had Lombardi. Bradshaw had more than Noll.
    Also, Dungy was no bargain for Manning. He was a soft, milquetoast coach, who's teams tended to wilt under pressure.

    But you make a case for Elway.

    What you have also done, which may or may not have been intentional, is diminish the emphasis on Rings. Montana, Brady, Bradshaw, Aikman all have more than Elway, as do Graham and Starr if you extend the reasoning to Championships.
    Whenever I do this to make an "excuse" for Manning, I get the tired old "Rings are the things" argument.
    If Rings matter the most, Elway is not the GOAT, nor is Manning. If we engage in subjective arguments, then everything opens up.

  7. #652
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    I found Marty Schottenheimer's response to this question interesting. His response was before Peyton and Brady had played much...

    Basically, Marty said if he had to pick the best QB for a game, he'd pick Montana. But if he had to pick a QB for a single big play it would be Elway.

  8. #653
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheArtofManning View Post
    A good response. You could also add that Graham had Paul Brown and Starr had Lombardi. Bradshaw had more than Noll.
    Also, Dungy was no bargain for Manning. He was a soft, milquetoast coach, who's teams tended to wilt under pressure.

    But you make a case for Elway.

    What you have also done, which may or may not have been intentional, is diminish the emphasis on Rings. Montana, Brady, Bradshaw, Aikman all have more than Elway, as do Graham and Starr if you extend the reasoning to Championships.
    Whenever I do this to make an "excuse" for Manning, I get the tired old "Rings are the things" argument.
    If Rings matter the most, Elway is not the GOAT, nor is Manning. If we engage in subjective arguments, then everything opens up.
    Rings are important but they're not everything. Dan Marino is easily one of the greatest QBs ever. The best pure passer ever. As far as Manning, even if he had no rings he'd still be among the very best of all time. He would still be the smartest, most productive QB of all time.

  9. #654
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerontion View Post
    Rings are important but they're not everything. Dan Marino is easily one of the greatest QBs ever. The best pure passer ever. As far as Manning, even if he had no rings he'd still be among the very best of all time. He would still be the smartest, most productive QB of all time.
    I would go one step further, and suggest that Rings are really not important at all (when judging QB greatness).
    Marino makes that case very compelling. Was there any more gifted passer than Marino?

    All we have to do is think out of the box a bit.
    Elway as good as many say he was, had no Rings, until the very end of his career. One more bad break (no Terrell Davis), and Big John suffers the same fate as Marino.
    In the eyes of the "experts", I guarantee they would lower Elway from a "top 5" to a "top 10" without those two Rings.
    That's simply an unfair and unrealistic way to evaluate quarterbacks.
    We can use the same reasoning for Manning and many others.
    With Brady, Montana and Bradshaw, they have a boatload of hardware. Evaluating QBs since the merger (1970), these three must be the top 3 if we use Rings as our primary factor. If we don't, then we have to rationalize why the Rings aren't that important, such as Brady has Belichick, and spygate, Montana had Walsh and a stacked team in the uncapped era, Bradshaw had the greatest defense ever (for a 10 year run).
    None of these 3 QBs would have accomplished what they did, without their situations being what they were.
    These 3 may not be the best ever, they may have simply been 3 of the most fortunate.

  10. #655
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    I voted Elway naturally.

    But Sam p made a good point about the GOAT argument. To be the greatest of all time you have to account for the whole long history of the NFL. For my money it's Unitas.
    When I was a yonker every month dad would take us boys to see the German. He was an old barber in Clarinda Ia. Like all barber shops there were magazines and newspapers. One of them was The sporting news. I don't remember what year it was specifically. but there was an article about unitas. The writer asked Lombardi what he thought about Unitas. His answer was "he scares the hell out of me".. You judge someone by the amount of respect he is accorded by his contemporaries and competitors.

  11. #656
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheArtofManning View Post
    Willing to admit, I don't know that much about them. I was around then though.
    When Graham played, and for most of Starr's career, it was, win your division and you are in the Championship game. One postseason game. A much simpler road than now. That's why you will never see it again. It's harder for a team to get to the promised land now.
    We are getting off point, in this thread, though.
    My biggest point I have been trying to make is this:
    It seems like Championships matter, until someone says they don't. Stats matter until someone says they don't.

    You (and I don't mean YOU), Cannot invoke "the team was dragged to a SB, by Elway", then turn around and say that Bradshaw (for example) won four SBs.Isn't it possible that the team got him there in the first place? Maybe the team won those 4 SBs?
    It's a disingenuous argument.Either the team matters or it doesn't. We readily diss Marino, because he has no Rings. Well, Elway was very close to having no Rings either.
    Enter Terrell Davis.
    I get that people on here don't care much for Manning. He's not the "tough guy" at least outwardly. Still, playing in the NFL for 18 seasons, and coming back from spinal fusion surgery, does display some level of toughness, I feel.
    Yes, he may have made more business decisions than some other QBs.

    So......Is Brady the greatest QB ever? He has 5 Rings and great stats.
    I would be curious on this board..........Who in NFL history ranks above Brady and why? It's essential to the conversation.
    The various QB rankings lack the level of knowledge based analysis to achieve context. This thread is about John Elway and Peyton Manning. About forty pages ago, I said apples and oranges. One of the differences between them is that one called his own plays and the other ran what was sent in from the sideline/box. That establishes a basic division of types of QBs. Baugh, Unitas, Starr, Bradshaw and Manning called their own plays. Graham, Montana, Elway and others didn't.

    Elway was a better athlete, scrambled to extend plays and had the strongest arm I've ever seen with accuracy. He played in several different systems and excelled in each. He lost three Super Bowls before winning two in a row to end his career. XXXII and XXXIII were facilitated by the one innovation for which Shanahan is given credit which was marrying the WCO passing attack to the Zone Series rushing attack devised by Alex Gibbs. Terrell Davis helped a lot and indicates that a strong rushing attack helps not only young QBs, but old ones, too.

    I didn't see all of Manning's games in Indy, but my impression is he quarterbacked a low volume offense he called at LOS. The Colts were mostly in 11 personnel in a balanced formation with no motion to present an uncluttered read. His pre-snap read showed him what he felt he needed to call what was most often a pass play. Defenses started showing one look and switching before the snap. Manning could be fooled by Cover 2 Robber, Zone Blitz and 3-3-5 D because they put defenders where they aren't expected to be. Manning won two Super Bowls, too. In XLI it was raining, I believe, and it was one of the rare games in Colts/Manning history where there were more rushing than passing attempts. In 50, he benefitted from his defense never allowing the opponent to get into the game.

    All of these QBs played in an offense that occupies a place in time of football history. Some of them benefitted from being on the leading edge of an innovation. Joe Montana quarterbacked Bill Walsh's WCO when it was fairly new and being developed. Sid Luckman played in the various forms of the T Formation which George Halas was trying to develop as an alternative to the long-lived Single/Double Wing. Otto Graham played for the most innovative coach in NFL History. When the Browns joined the NFL in 1950, the only games they lost that year were to another innovator, Steve Owen and his 4-3 D.

    Sammy Baugh played on a Single Wing team at the end of that offense's era and wasn't even called a quarterback. Single Wing is the most misdirection offensive system in which the ball is shared among all four Backs. In spite of that system, he excelled as a passer. If he had played for Halas or Brown in a T Formation O, or even in his college offense, Dutch Meyer's Southwestern Spread, he would have performed better as a passer than he did in the Single Wing.

    Bart Starr called his own plays in an offense with a series-based rushing attack, Lombardi's Sweep Series. Terry Bradshaw benefitted from Chuck Noll's Trap Series, and some of the greatest plays he called were runs. Joe Gibbs had several QBs who benefitted from his Counter Series. QBs who called their own plays need to have their run calls scrutinized as closely as their pass calls are. This is one area where Manning's expertise could be analyzed and questioned.

    IMO Tom Brady will never be anything other than an asterisk like the steroid boys of Major League Baseball because he plays in an organization that systematically cheats and has been caught doing it. I have no respect for a QB who knows the defensive calls based on stealing signals. Brady should never be in the same conversation with Sammy Baugh, Otto Graham, Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr, Joe Montana, John Elway and Peyton Manning.
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

  12. #657
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    Quote Originally Posted by lvbronx View Post
    I found Marty Schottenheimer's response to this question interesting. His response was before Peyton and Brady had played much...

    Basically, Marty said if he had to pick the best QB for a game, he'd pick Montana. But if he had to pick a QB for a single big play it would be Elway.
    Marty was in a position to know.
    Last edited by samparnell; 05-05-2017 at 06:25 AM. Reason: space/typo
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

  13. #658
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    Quote Originally Posted by samparnell View Post
    The various QB rankings lack the level of knowledge based analysis to achieve context. This thread is about John Elway and Peyton Manning. About forty pages ago, I said apples and oranges. One of the differences between them is that one called his own plays and the other ran what was sent in from the sideline/box. That establishes a basic division of types of QBs. Baugh, Unitas, Starr, Bradshaw and Manning called their own plays. Graham, Montana, Elway and others didn't.

    Elway was a better athlete, scrambled to extend plays and had the strongest arm I've ever seen with accuracy. He played in several different systems and excelled in each. He lost three Super Bowls before winning two in a row to end his career. XXXII and XXXIII were facilitated by the one innovation for which Shanahan is given credit which was marrying the WCO passing attack to the Zone Series rushing attack devised by Alex Gibbs. Terrell Davis helped a lot and indicates that a strong rushing attack helps not only young QBs, but old ones, too.

    I didn't see all of Manning's games in Indy, but my impression is he quarterbacked a low volume offense he called at LOS. The Colts were mostly in 11 personnel in a balanced formation with no motion to present an uncluttered read. His pre-snap read showed him what he felt he needed to call what was most often a pass play. Defenses started showing one look and switching before the snap. Manning could be fooled by Cover 2 Robber, Zone Blitz and 3-3-5 D because they put defenders where they aren't expected to be. Manning won two Super Bowls, too. In XLI it was raining, I believe, and it was one of the rare games in Colts/Manning history where there were more rushing than passing attempts. In 50, he benefitted from his defense never allowing the opponent to get into the game.

    All of these QBs played in an offense that occupies a place in time of football history. Some of them benefitted from being on the leading edge of an innovation. Joe Montana quarterbacked Bill Walsh's WCO when it was fairly new and being developed. Sid Luckman played in the various forms of the T Formation which George Halas was trying to develop as an alternative to the long-lived Single/Double Wing. Otto Graham played for the most innovative coach in NFL History. When the Browns joined the NFL in 1950, the only games they lost that year were to another innovator, Steve Owen and his 4-3 D.

    Sammy Baugh played on a Single Wing team at the end of that offense's era and wasn't even called a quarterback. Single Wing is the most misdirection offensive system in which the ball is shared among all four Backs. In spite of that system, he excelled as a passer. If he had played for Halas or Brown in a T Formation O, or even in his college offense, Dutch Meyer's Southwestern Spread, he would have performed better as a passer than he did in the Single Wing.

    Bart Starr called his own plays in an offense with a series-based rushing attack, Lombardi's Sweep Series. Terry Bradshaw benefitted from Chuck Noll's Trap Series, and some of the greatest plays he called were runs. Joe Gibbs had several QBs who benefitted from his Counter Series. QBs who called their own plays need to have their run calls scrutinized as closely as their pass calls are. This is one area where Manning's expertise could be analyzed and questioned.

    IMO Tom Brady will never be anything other than an asterisk like the steroid boys of Major League Baseball because he plays in an organization that systematically cheats and has been caught doing it. I have no respect for a QB who knows the defensive calls based on stealing signals. Brady should never be in the same conversation with Sammy Baugh, Otto Graham, Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr, Joe Montana, John Elway and Peyton Manning.
    Sam,
    Your football knowledge is greater than mine, and mine isn't bad, in my opinion.
    I agree with the bolded points you made, and you have written a great summation overall, which I cannot do. Plus you dissed Brady, so I love you (metaphorically of course).

    We live in the "ESPN" age where every damned game is presented as a QB battle, and that shortchanges so much of what is occurring on the field. The complexity of it all is
    distilled down to "Brady vs. Manning #19"!! or something like that. It's idiotic.

    I have an will recognize Manning's shortcomings. His physical ability was minimal by NFL standards. And his offense could be outsmarted by clever DCs who learned to disguise their coverage. Ironically, as great a career as he had, his two SB winning seasons were mostly due to defensive play of his team.
    He destroyed teams that weren't "ready" for what he brought to the table. But clever opponents could beat him. He was a bit of a "one trick pony", in that, he really could not improvise too well. That however, is more of a product of his limited physical skill set.Having said this, I never really felt he was a "choker". His postseason record isn't bad, he has 14 wins, 2 SBs, and a pretty effective passer rating. It's just that he never shined in a Super Bowl.

    Elway or Manning, as the topic started out?
    Two completely different animals. If I want to be amazed, I take Peyton. If I want a tough bastard that would go to the wall, I take Elway.
    But Manning is my favourite, so it is what it is.

  14. #659
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    My opinion, championships matter, but should not be a heavy influence on the decision. Nobody believes Trent Dilfer is better than Dan Marino, and if they do, I think they're very misguided. The bigger picture, as well as the argument is highly subjective.
    If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under.
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  15. #660
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis.1960 View Post
    I also recall a documentary (possibly the same one) on the '83 draft explaining just how close Elway came to becoming a raider. IIRC, Elway said he preferred to play on the West coast and the deal was done and all that was needed was league approval. Thankfully Pete Rozelle refused, probably because he hated Al Davis for suing the league and moving the raiders to LA. I can't imagine how Bronco history would have changed with us fielding Steve DeBerg while the raiders had Elway...scary
    God, what a nightmare that would have been!
    Superbowl 50 MVP defeats 2015 League MVP, Feb. 7th, 2016

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