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View Full Version : Frank Okam -vs- Sedrick Ellis



jrfernan
01-12-2008, 12:56 PM
Here's some head to head scouting comparisons between Okam and Ellis, from New Era scouting:


Frank Okam:

- Height/Weight: 6'5 320

-Character / Leadership Ability: Has been a high-character player throughout his career in Austin. Okam has not shown the on-field leadership that most would associate with a dominant upper-classman.

-Competitive Nature / Work Ethic: Does not always take over games late, which calls in to question his competitive nature. Okam has been a locker room rat during his time in college. Is willing to do the work needed to get better. Has progressed every year.

-Size: Has ideal size for a starting defensive tackle in either a 4-3 or 3-4 scheme. Has great length and bulk. Is a solid player with little fat.

-Athletic Ability: Okam is one of the more athletic defensive tackles in college football. He possesses above average agility, good balance and overall athleticism. Okam has impressive burst and has shown over his four years to be good in space as well. Is surprisingly agile

-Quickness: Is among the fastest players at his position in college football. Has exceptional short quicks and field speed. Can chase down back and is good at trapping the ball carrier. Will run down most quarterbacks.

-Strength: Is regarded as one of the strongest players to ever come through Austin. Takes pride in his workouts and translates this to the field.

-Tackling: Is a strong tackler, but will hit high at times. Does a good job of wrapping up, but is too often left grabbing air. Needs to work to make contact with the lower body instead of the shoulders.

-Additional Comments: Okam came in to the 2007 season as one of the top college players in the country. His play thus far has been inspiring, but he has not yet faced a worthy opponent across the ball from him. The stretch run of the '07 season will show if Okam is truly among the best defensive linemen in the Nation, or if he is feeding on lesser players.


Sedrick Ellis:

--Height/Weight: 6'2 305

-Character / Leadership Ability: No concerns on Ellis' character. Appears to be a fun loving guy on the field who teammates gravitate toward.

-Competitive Nature / Work Ethic: Plays with a non-stop motor. Shows top effort even though he consistently faces double teams. One of Southern California's team leaders. A true weight room warrior.

-Size: Is a little short for his position and some think his height has been falsely reported. Squat player with short arms. Likely can't get any bigger.

-Athletic Ability: Possesss great athleticism for the position. Is as quick off the snap as any player you'll find.

-Quickness: Ellis' burst off the snap is impressive and he'll often get into the backfield quickly while a play is developing.

-Strength: Has good core strength and he doesn't get overpowered often at the point of attack. Can handle two blockers and not be knocked around.

-Tackling: Solid tackler who won't let go of an opponent once he gets his hands on them. Wraps up well and finishes.

-Additional Comments: A stellar one-gap defensive tackle who is incredibly quick off the snap. Frequently gets in the backfield and shows immense strength. Is rarely caught out of position. Good tackler. Lack of height may concern some. Incredibly powerfuly. A very experienced starter. May have limited upside. A perennial All American.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Will Okam be a solid starter at the NFL level? Possibly so. Will he be a Pro Bowler? Hard to say. A lot of good is said about him, but some things turn me off and will give us MORE OF THE SAME as we have now in that position:

-Okam has not shown the on-field leadership that most would associate with a dominant upper-classman. ...Is this what we need?

-Does not always take over games late, which calls in to question his competitive nature......This, IMO, is the SCARIEST thing about Okam. We don't need our DTs giving up late in the game.

Those two issues ALONE tell me he is a run-of-the-mill guy. One of the bunch. That asserstion is backed by this comment:

-Okam is one of the more athletic defensive tackles in college football.

That tells me he is ONE OF SEVERAL. And that is EXACTLY what I've been saying. He's good, but ONE OF MANY in that SAME CATEGORY.

Now, let's look at Ellis and what's been said about him:

-Appears to be a fun loving guy on the field who teammates gravitate toward. ...That tells me that he has leadership POTENTIAL.

-Plays with a non-stop motor. Shows top effort even though he consistently faces double teams. One of Southern California's team leaders. A true weight room warrior. ....If this, alone, doesn't sway you then I don't know what will.

Then you have these comments wich almost sound cartoonish:

-stellar one-gap defensive tackle
-Possesss great athleticism
-incredibly quick
-immense strength
-Incredibly powerfuly

Adjectives like "Stellar", "Great", "Incredible" and "Immense" when talking about this guy's skills and strength. I mean, what the! How many OTHER college players are having these same adjectives thrown around next to their names? Please find ONE!?

Now, some of you will point to the blurp about Ellis having "limited upside". LOL!!! Of course he has limited upside! He's as good as the current Pro Bowlers!!! Who cares if he gets any better. He's GREAT NOW! Ellis is not a project or a gamble. He is a Prow Bowler NOW!

Take Okam and you will have a nice, big guy who will give us some plays. But, what current leader do we have that will light a fire under him(since he seems to lack the intensity that Ellis has in spades)? Champ Bailey? DJ Willliams? The scouting report CLEARLY warns about not having a 4th quarter motor. Is that what we need? A guy who'll be exhausted and worn out in the Mile Hight air?

The leadership skills, motor and strength of Ellis SURPASES those of Okam. It's that simple. His football WORTH is MUCH HIGHER than Okam's and why we need to grab him.

gyldenlove
01-12-2008, 01:59 PM
Comparing Ellis and Okam, Ellis comes out ahead. Okam this year has failed to dominate against top opposition (and Texas have played several good teams). That worries me, because getting sacks against division 2 players and bottom feeding division 1 teams tells nothing about how the player will perform in the NFL.

I think Ellis is a better choice for us now because he is more disruptive, a better pure 1-gap player (something I think we will return to after the failure of Bates' system) and he never disappears from a game.

Okam is a better pure space eater, he is very hard to move around and will hold up better at the line. However I don't think he will be the type of player you need to double team because you just need to slow him down against the pass. A good 3-gap DT should be someone you HAVE to double team every time or someone will be in pain.

Right now I would rather have Pat Sims or even Dre Moore than Okam.

beastlyskronk
01-12-2008, 02:15 PM
Ellis hasn't really had top notch competition this year either. As I said before throwing around adjectives doesn't mean anything. Plus we have a bigger need for a NT which is what Frank Okam is. Sedrick will always be a UT in the NFL. We already have Marcus Thomas to play UT. Also NTs aren't suppose to really be able to rush the passer. Pat Williams comes out in obvious passing plays and people still consider him to be dominant.

I do like Pat Simms more than Okam but I doubt Simms will be there.

JoRo
01-12-2008, 02:49 PM
Ellis hasn't really had top notch competition this year either. As I said before throwing around adjectives doesn't mean anything. Plus we have a bigger need for a NT which is what Frank Okam is. Sedrick will always be a UT in the NFL. We already have Marcus Thomas to play UT. Also NTs aren't suppose to really be able to rush the passer. Pat Williams comes out in obvious passing plays and people still consider him to be dominant.

I do like Pat Simms more than Okam but I doubt Simms will be there.

Actually Ellis is more of a hybrid tackle. In some systems he could be the nose (say the tampa 2 d) but in others he would best fit as a UT, whereas Okam's best fit seems to be as a 4-3 NT (like Pat Williams)

beastlyskronk
01-12-2008, 03:05 PM
Actually Ellis is more of a hybrid tackle. In some systems he could be the nose (say the tampa 2 d) but in others he would best fit as a UT, whereas Okam's best fit seems to be as a 4-3 NT (like Pat Williams)

As you say Ellis is a hybrid but he is better suited to play UT and that's what you do with young players you have to put them at the best position available to maximize potential. As Okam is a true NT and all he needs to do is stop the run his conditioning wouldn't be much of a factor. Okam could singlehandedly improve our Run D while Ellis wouldn't play much unless Marcus Thomas got hurt or just sucked.

I read somewhere on this site that Thomas was bulking up. If that is true then maybe he could play NT but if we have Thomas at UT and Frank Okam we could have the next Stroud/Henderson duo. Either combination would be great whether it be Okam/Thomas or Ellis/Thomas.

JoRo
01-12-2008, 03:13 PM
As you say Ellis is a hybrid but he is better suited to play UT and that's what you do with young players you have to put them at the best position available to maximize potential. As Okam is a true NT and all he needs to do is stop the run his conditioning wouldn't be much of a factor. Okam could singlehandedly improve our Run D while Ellis wouldn't play much unless Marcus Thomas got hurt or just sucked.

I read somewhere on this site that Thomas was bulking up. If that is true then maybe he could play NT but if we have Thomas at UT and Frank Okam we could have the next Stroud/Henderson duo. Either combination would be great whether it be Okam/Thomas or Ellis/Thomas.

Actually FO has shown a stat that almost all rookie DT's alone make next to no difference their first year. There is so much to learn (and they usually go to piss poor teams against the run) that it usually takes at least to year 2.

I do think either would be a good pickup if possible... just not worth trading up for.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
01-12-2008, 03:37 PM
You can't compare these two players, they are fundamentally different. Both will be elite if they are used in their respective schemes, though I would say Okam has more versatility since his size does not limit him whatsoever.

And I completely disagree with the thought that you don't have to doubleteam Okam. He destroys single blockers by shoving them back into their quarterbacks. Both of these prospects are freakishly strong, it's going to be interesting to see who's strongest at the Combine.

Dream
01-12-2008, 03:41 PM
AOSdoasd:)wooow!!

Humberg
01-12-2008, 04:08 PM
You can't compare these two players, they are fundamentally different. Both will be elite if they are used in their respective schemes, though I would say Okam has more versatility since his size does not limit him whatsoever.

And I completely disagree with the thought that you don't have to doubleteam Okam. He destroys single blockers by shoving them back into their quarterbacks. Both of these prospects are freakishly strong, it's going to be interesting to see who's strongest at the Combine.

No kidding, I was sort of checking out all of your hype around Okam and in viewing that Texas/Crowder highlight where Tim Crowder ends up stripping the ball in the endzone, watch how Okam just absolutely DEMOLISHES his blocker and forces the play. Exactly what you were saying. Impressive. I think both would be a good fit now that Bates is no longer in the picture.

To be honest though, Ellis is the more complete player, and much higher ranked, and will be a likely top 10 pick. Okam could fall into the late 1st or early 2nd. It would be tough for us to get either of them unless we move somehow.

Gr3yStreet
01-12-2008, 04:27 PM
Either one would be great for us, but Okam would make more sense. He would fit well into our 4-3, and with Marcus Thomas.

fraguela09
01-12-2008, 06:20 PM
Would Okam be the better fit though... to pair with Marcus Thomas?

If we grab Ellis... then we would have 2 undersized DTs... no?

jrfernan
01-13-2008, 07:54 AM
With all due respect to all of you, but you are COMPLETELY wrong when you say that Ellis played lesser competition. It clearly shows a bias and that your mind is made up, and no matter what anyone else shows you or tells you, you will keep your head in the sand and not look up, or around, to see if there's anything better. You have blinders on.

Please read, listen, investigate, ask around, browse, view film, write emails, whatever. But please, dig your heads out of the sand. PLEASE! :D

Ellis is MUCH BETTER than OKAM. The statistics alone prove that, if not simply by watching him play. Ellis is faster, stronger and a MUCH more developed player. Ellis is a HARDER WORKER, ALL GAME LONG. Okam gets lazy. And we don't need lazy. We've had TOO MUCH LAZY in Denver in the DL for too long. But it seems you guys don't tire of it.

This "Ellis is a gap guy" and "Ellis is too small" and whatever else you're reaching for is BOGUS. All of it.

For starters...

Texas played TWO ranked teams and lost to one of them; Oklahoma.
USC played THREE ranked teams and lost to one of them; Oregon.

Texas was 10-3
USC was 11-2

They each played some decent teams and some not so good teams; as most teams do.

They each had EXCELLENT offenses as opponents in their schedule. Each faced some of the nations top running backs, some which amassed over 1600 total yards in their conference. So no stiffs in either conference.

So, let's call the schedule even. Otherwise, we'd have to split hairs.

Given that, we need to see how each man PRODUCED against SIMILAR opponents.

Here are individual stats for each man. Each having played in 13 games

------------------------Okam--------------- Ellis

Tackles solo------------- 17------------------ 29
Tackles assisted--------- 19------------------ 29
Tackles Total ------------36------------------ 58
Tackles per game-------- 2.77---------------- 4.46
Tackles for Loss---------- 8(for 61 yds) -------12.5(for 75 yds)
Sacks ------------------- 5(50 yds) -----------8.5(67 yds)
Passes Broken Up--------- 4------------------- 7
QB Hurries---------------- 7 -------------------1
Fumbles Forced----------- 1------------------- 0


So, what do we have? Well, CLEARLY Ellis is more productive. In some cases 50% or more productive. Is that significant? YOU BET!!!

In baseball terms Ellis is a .320 hitter and Okam a .270 hitter.

58 tackles -vs- 36 over 13 games is a BIG difference at DT. More sacks, more tackles for loss. IRONICALLY, with shorter arms Ellis broke up more passes! So much for the "DTs with long arms are better" theory.

So, your prejudice toward a smaller DT is in the wash, because it doesn't seem to matter does it?

But you will come back and tell me that the schemes were different or USC had better defenders. Or that the OTHER USC tackle Fili Maola was ABSORBING MOST of the blockers thus freeing up Ellis to get the glamorous statistics. Please DO NOT say that because that will show an INCREDIBLE LEVEL OF IGRORANCE. Maola, at 6'5" 300lbs, took ON LESS DOUBLE TEAMS THAN ELLIS!!! It is a KNOWN FACT! Double-teammed and all, Ellis OUT PRODUCED his teammate by HUGE numbers.

So what else you have to throw at me? Orion and some other Nebula were ligned up properly each time Ellis played and not when Okam played, blah blah. Or, maybe you think that QB hurries are the most important stat for a DT and not tackles for losses, sacks and passes deflected. Who knows, but at this juncture I'm ready for any ridiculous refutal.

You can argue with me all you want about adjectives and hyperbole or whatever else you feel like using to justify that Okam is equal to Ellis. The bottom line is that he is not.

In fact, there is a thread going around the web(look for it, if you care to learn) that has USC alumni, fans and an ex player or two, arguing that Ellis is the best ATHLETE the team had; and the discussion INCLUDES REGGIE BUSH! Some think that Ellis is a better athlete(relative to position and worth) that Sir Reggie himself.

But, of course, you will say: "Reggie stinks and is overrated".....Whatever!

There is a reason why Ellis will be the second DT taken in this draft. He is good enough to have teams accomodate their schemes to fit him in. Of course, our staunch coaches will not do that and we just get more of the same. Big, lazy DTs that add no value to one of the worst Ds in the league.

More of the same...

mx_stiles13
01-13-2008, 09:13 AM
So Frank Okam is just another Shaun Rogers...

No Leadership.

Fat and Lazy.

Broncosinindy
01-13-2008, 10:33 AM
You cannot compare a UT to a NT, Okam who played the NT role had really a awesome season. For Okam who Played NT to have those kind of stats is like a #3 wideout getting a thousand yards.

If you are gonna make comparisons compare Doresy to Ellis or Bamer.

Compare the NT to each other Pat Sims, Okam, Bryant, Tayor, Morton, Granger, Harrison, the kid from Iowa state.

If you do this you will see how extremely WELL Okam played.

Broncosinindy
01-13-2008, 10:43 AM
With all due respect to all of you, but you are COMPLETELY wrong when you say that Ellis played lesser competition. It clearly shows a bias and that your mind is made up, and no matter what anyone else shows you or tells you, you will keep your head in the sand and not look up, or around, to see if there's anything better. You have blinders on.

Please read, listen, investigate, ask around, browse, view film, write emails, whatever. But please, dig your heads out of the sand. PLEASE! :D

Ellis is MUCH BETTER than OKAM. The statistics alone prove that, if not simply by watching him play. Ellis is faster, stronger and a MUCH more developed player. Ellis is a HARDER WORKER, ALL GAME LONG. Okam gets lazy. And we don't need lazy. We've had TOO MUCH LAZY in Denver in the DL for too long. But it seems you guys don't tire of it.

This "Ellis is a gap guy" and "Ellis is too small" and whatever else you're reaching for is BOGUS. All of it.

For starters...

Texas played TWO ranked teams and lost to one of them; Oklahoma.
USC played THREE ranked teams and lost to one of them; Oregon.

Texas was 10-3
USC was 11-2

They each played some decent teams and some not so good teams; as most teams do.

They each had EXCELLENT offenses as opponents in their schedule. Each faced some of the nations top running backs, some which amassed over 1600 total yards in their conference. So no stiffs in either conference.

So, let's call the schedule even. Otherwise, we'd have to split hairs.

Given that, we need to see how each man PRODUCED against SIMILAR opponents.

Here are individual stats for each man. Each having played in 13 games

------------------------Okam--------------- Ellis

Tackles solo------------- 17------------------ 29
Tackles assisted--------- 19------------------ 29
Tackles Total ------------36------------------ 58
Tackles per game-------- 2.77---------------- 4.46
Tackles for Loss---------- 8(for 61 yds) -------12.5(for 75 yds)
Sacks ------------------- 5(50 yds) -----------8.5(67 yds)
Passes Broken Up--------- 4------------------- 7
QB Hurries---------------- 7 -------------------1
Fumbles Forced----------- 1------------------- 0


So, what do we have? Well, CLEARLY Ellis is more productive. In some cases 50% or more productive. Is that significant? YOU BET!!!

In baseball terms Ellis is a .320 hitter and Okam a .270 hitter.

58 tackles -vs- 36 over 13 games is a BIG difference at DT. More sacks, more tackles for loss. IRONICALLY, with shorter arms Ellis broke up more passes! So much for the "DTs with long arms are better" theory.

So, your prejudice toward a smaller DT is in the wash, because it doesn't seem to matter does it?

But you will come back and tell me that the schemes were different or USC had better defenders. Or that the OTHER USC tackle Fili Maola was ABSORBING MOST of the blockers thus freeing up Ellis to get the glamorous statistics. Please DO NOT say that because that will show an INCREDIBLE LEVEL OF IGRORANCE. Maola, at 6'5" 300lbs, took ON LESS DOUBLE TEAMS THAN ELLIS!!! It is a KNOWN FACT! Double-teammed and all, Ellis OUT PRODUCED his teammate by HUGE numbers.

So what else you have to throw at me? Orion and some other Nebula were ligned up properly each time Ellis played and not when Okam played, blah blah. Or, maybe you think that QB hurries are the most important stat for a DT and not tackles for losses, sacks and passes deflected. Who knows, but at this juncture I'm ready for any ridiculous refutal.

You can argue with me all you want about adjectives and hyperbole or whatever else you feel like using to justify that Okam is equal to Ellis. The bottom line is that he is not.

In fact, there is a thread going around the web(look for it, if you care to learn) that has USC alumni, fans and an ex player or two, arguing that Ellis is the best ATHLETE the team had; and the discussion INCLUDES REGGIE BUSH! Some think that Ellis is a better athlete(relative to position and worth) that Sir Reggie himself.

But, of course, you will say: "Reggie stinks and is overrated".....Whatever!

There is a reason why Ellis will be the second DT taken in this draft. He is good enough to have teams accomodate their schemes to fit him in. Of course, our staunch coaches will not do that and we just get more of the same. Big, lazy DTs that add no value to one of the worst Ds in the league.

More of the same...
What you dont understand is that you are trying to compare apples to oranges. while both could be considered a fruit they are complety differant.

Ellis is a great UT he will be a perfect He is a stud NOONE that really knows how to grade out DL would aregue that

Sedrick Elis job requires him to Split double teams. and i puta high emphasis on SPLITTING. get in the back field and blow up plays.

While Okams Job is to FREE UP players like Ellis Moss and a Dumervil so they may get the 1 on 1's and do there jobs. His job requires to anchor the Defensive line taking up multiple blockers

MOST DEFENSES NEED A OKAM AND A ELLIS.

What the questions is What is more IMPORTANT to your defense. of course in Jim Bates Defense Frank Okam is a neccesity While ellis it would have been a waste

Stats are important of course but in this case they are a WASH. Ellis was set up to get the stats while Okam's Job is to be a selfless player take on the blocks and let his Teammates get the plays

So if you are in the market for a NT and a UT which i feel denver is in for. What skillset is more important to your D. Denver has a Marcus Thomas who is supposed to be a pretty good UT well see.

While we got GASHED up the middle last year. that tells me that our NT got his ARSE whopped We could not Hold the LOS last year and it showed.

Do you want to bring in Ellis and move Thomas to NT. or woud you rather have a MT type paying UT and a NT like one that i mentioned above Anchoring your line.

I realize and recognizee the differances in there game and what they are asked to do I like both of them as prospects and would be extremely happy with either one of them. Your areguement to anyone that truely knows DL is silly and quite funny. Get of your soap box and study up some more

Broncosinindy
01-13-2008, 10:54 AM
Would Okam be the better fit though... to pair with Marcus Thomas?

If we grab Ellis... then we would have 2 undersized DTs... no?

No Marcus Thomas is around 315lbs. which is actually pretty good Size and could play the NT position he is not a great NT like Okam but he can play the position

cvnorton
01-13-2008, 10:59 AM
Here's some head to head scouting comparisons between Okam and Ellis, from New Era scouting:


Frank Okam:

- Height/Weight: 6'5 320

-Character / Leadership Ability: Has been a high-character player throughout his career in Austin. Okam has not shown the on-field leadership that most would associate with a dominant upper-classman.

-Competitive Nature / Work Ethic: Does not always take over games late, which calls in to question his competitive nature. Okam has been a locker room rat during his time in college. Is willing to do the work needed to get better. Has progressed every year.

-Size: Has ideal size for a starting defensive tackle in either a 4-3 or 3-4 scheme. Has great length and bulk. Is a solid player with little fat.

-Athletic Ability: Okam is one of the more athletic defensive tackles in college football. He possesses above average agility, good balance and overall athleticism. Okam has impressive burst and has shown over his four years to be good in space as well. Is surprisingly agile

-Quickness: Is among the fastest players at his position in college football. Has exceptional short quicks and field speed. Can chase down back and is good at trapping the ball carrier. Will run down most quarterbacks.

-Strength: Is regarded as one of the strongest players to ever come through Austin. Takes pride in his workouts and translates this to the field.

-Tackling: Is a strong tackler, but will hit high at times. Does a good job of wrapping up, but is too often left grabbing air. Needs to work to make contact with the lower body instead of the shoulders.

-Additional Comments: Okam came in to the 2007 season as one of the top college players in the country. His play thus far has been inspiring, but he has not yet faced a worthy opponent across the ball from him. The stretch run of the '07 season will show if Okam is truly among the best defensive linemen in the Nation, or if he is feeding on lesser players.


Sedrick Ellis:

--Height/Weight: 6'2 305

-Character / Leadership Ability: No concerns on Ellis' character. Appears to be a fun loving guy on the field who teammates gravitate toward.

-Competitive Nature / Work Ethic: Plays with a non-stop motor. Shows top effort even though he consistently faces double teams. One of Southern California's team leaders. A true weight room warrior.

-Size: Is a little short for his position and some think his height has been falsely reported. Squat player with short arms. Likely can't get any bigger.

-Athletic Ability: Possesss great athleticism for the position. Is as quick off the snap as any player you'll find.

-Quickness: Ellis' burst off the snap is impressive and he'll often get into the backfield quickly while a play is developing.

-Strength: Has good core strength and he doesn't get overpowered often at the point of attack. Can handle two blockers and not be knocked around.

-Tackling: Solid tackler who won't let go of an opponent once he gets his hands on them. Wraps up well and finishes.

-Additional Comments: A stellar one-gap defensive tackle who is incredibly quick off the snap. Frequently gets in the backfield and shows immense strength. Is rarely caught out of position. Good tackler. Lack of height may concern some. Incredibly powerfuly. A very experienced starter. May have limited upside. A perennial All American.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Will Okam be a solid starter at the NFL level? Possibly so. Will he be a Pro Bowler? Hard to say. A lot of good is said about him, but some things turn me off and will give us MORE OF THE SAME as we have now in that position:

-Okam has not shown the on-field leadership that most would associate with a dominant upper-classman. ...Is this what we need?

-Does not always take over games late, which calls in to question his competitive nature......This, IMO, is the SCARIEST thing about Okam. We don't need our DTs giving up late in the game.

Those two issues ALONE tell me he is a run-of-the-mill guy. One of the bunch. That asserstion is backed by this comment:

-Okam is one of the more athletic defensive tackles in college football.

That tells me he is ONE OF SEVERAL. And that is EXACTLY what I've been saying. He's good, but ONE OF MANY in that SAME CATEGORY.

Now, let's look at Ellis and what's been said about him:

-Appears to be a fun loving guy on the field who teammates gravitate toward. ...That tells me that he has leadership POTENTIAL.

-Plays with a non-stop motor. Shows top effort even though he consistently faces double teams. One of Southern California's team leaders. A true weight room warrior. ....If this, alone, doesn't sway you then I don't know what will.

Then you have these comments wich almost sound cartoonish:

-stellar one-gap defensive tackle
-Possesss great athleticism
-incredibly quick
-immense strength
-Incredibly powerfuly

Adjectives like "Stellar", "Great", "Incredible" and "Immense" when talking about this guy's skills and strength. I mean, what the! How many OTHER college players are having these same adjectives thrown around next to their names? Please find ONE!?

Now, some of you will point to the blurp about Ellis having "limited upside". LOL!!! Of course he has limited upside! He's as good as the current Pro Bowlers!!! Who cares if he gets any better. He's GREAT NOW! Ellis is not a project or a gamble. He is a Prow Bowler NOW!

Take Okam and you will have a nice, big guy who will give us some plays. But, what current leader do we have that will light a fire under him(since he seems to lack the intensity that Ellis has in spades)? Champ Bailey? DJ Willliams? The scouting report CLEARLY warns about not having a 4th quarter motor. Is that what we need? A guy who'll be exhausted and worn out in the Mile Hight air?

The leadership skills, motor and strength of Ellis SURPASES those of Okam. It's that simple. His football WORTH is MUCH HIGHER than Okam's and why we need to grab him.

Having read that believe it or not I would go with Okam. Ellis has BUST written all over him. I think with Okam you will get a quality player with a good skill set for less than what it would take to get Ellis who may or may not turn out to be a decent player in the NFL. I say go with Phillips in the first followed by Okam in the second of they are both there.

Broncosinindy
01-13-2008, 11:02 AM
Having read that believe it or not I would go with Okam. Ellis has BUST written all over him. I think with Okam you will get a quality player with a good skill set for less than what it would take to get Ellis who may or may not turn out to be a decent player in the NFL. I say go with Phillips in the first followed by Okam in the second of they are both there.

Phillips is going to be my bust canidate for this year. i think he is severely Overrated.

JoRo
01-13-2008, 11:29 AM
Phillips is going to be my bust canidate for this year. i think he is severely Overrated.

Actually I don't think he will. I think he looked bad cuz he played on possibly the worst Miami team of the last 10+ years and was in a terrible secondary.

stnzed
01-13-2008, 11:31 AM
If it were up to me, the Broncos wouldn't touch Ellis, he's too small and he won't be able to get on quickness alone in the NFL.

I'd rather take Okam, be it in the 2nd round if that's where he'll go, than waste my time on Ellis.

The Broncos are already too small and weak......

Broncosinindy
01-13-2008, 11:38 AM
If it were up to me, the Broncos wouldn't touch Ellis, he's too small and he won't be able to get on quickness alone in the NFL.

I'd rather take Okam, be it in the 2nd round if that's where he'll go, than waste my time on Ellis.

The Broncos are already too small and weak......


He has more to his game then just speed. i think he uses his hands well specially for a college player. and has GREAT strength

Broncosinindy
01-13-2008, 11:39 AM
Actually I don't think he will. I think he looked bad cuz he played on possibly the worst Miami team of the last 10+ years and was in a terrible secondary.

That tells me if he has noone around him he is just mediocre. If he cannot dominate and play well with out players around him i am not to enthued with the prospect.

JoRo
01-13-2008, 11:49 AM
That tells me if he has noone around him he is just mediocre. If he cannot dominate and play well with out players around him i am not to enthued with the prospect.

He DID play well though..just not as good as say Reed did (who had talent around him)

It is impossible to do it on your own at safety... or anywhere in the back 4 as they can just throw to the other three spots...

get what I mean? He did well for the circumstances

jrfernan
01-13-2008, 02:15 PM
What you dont understand is that you are trying to compare apples to oranges. while both could be considered a fruit they are complety differant.

Ellis is a great UT he will be a perfect He is a stud NOONE that really knows how to grade out DL would aregue that

Sedrick Elis job requires him to Split double teams. and I put a high emphasis on SPLITTING. get in the back field and blow up plays.

While Okams Job is to FREE UP players like Ellis Moss and a Dumervil so they may get the 1 on 1's and do there jobs. His job requires to anchor the Defensive line taking up multiple blockers

MOST DEFENSES NEED A OKAM AND A ELLIS.

What the questions is What is more IMPORTANT to your defense. of course in Jim Bates Defense Frank Okam is a neccesity While ellis it would have been a waste

Stats are important of course but in this case they are a WASH. Ellis was set up to get the stats while Okam's Job is to be a selfless player take on the blocks and let his Teammates get the plays

So if you are in the market for a NT and a UT which i feel denver is in for. What skillset is more important to your D. Denver has a Marcus Thomas who is supposed to be a pretty good UT well see.

While we got GASHED up the middle last year. that tells me that our NT got his ARSE whopped We could not Hold the LOS last year and it showed.

Do you want to bring in Ellis and move Thomas to NT. or woud you rather have a MT type paying UT and a NT like one that i mentioned above Anchoring your line.

I realize and recognizee the differances in there game and what they are asked to do I like both of them as prospects and would be extremely happy with either one of them. Your areguement to anyone that truely knows DL is silly and quite funny. Get of your soap box and study up some more


You are way too predictable: "Ellis was set up to get the stats while Okam's Job is to be a selfless player take on the blocks and let his Teammates get the plays"

I don't think you are old enough to remember what a REAL DT plays like, and you're way too caught up "titles" and "roles" to understand what a TRUE DT does. Any and ALL GREAT DTs have to PUSH the linemen, shed blocks, absorb surges and TACKLE; and some of the VERY ELITE sack the QBs. ANY DT that can't do ALL OF THAT is not a complete DT. The reason they have "slot this", "edge that", "gap the other" is because VERY FEW DTs today are complete players.

That being said, Ellis is MUCH MORE complete than Okam.

Do some RESEARCH on Ellis and you will learn he "absorbed" CONSTANT double teams and WON the battles. His scouting report(S) say as much. Watching him play tells us as much. In fact, it's one of his claims to FAME; namely, how successful he's been EVEN THOUGH he was CONSTANTLY double-teamed.

So ALL of your assertions and conclusions about Ellis being LEFT ALONE to roam and conquer is not only wrong, but it shows an extreme level of prejudice and/ignorance.

I CHALLENGE you to find ANY scouting report that even HINTS that Ellis was left alone and therefore padded his stats. I challenge you to find such a report.

You won't find a SINGLE report that says that. What you will find is that he "was constantly DOUBLE-TEAMED"; and yet look at his stats! That doesn't sound like a "gap" guy to me. Doesn't sound like a "little" guy that was left alone because ALL HE DID was rush the passer and was a little pest that warranted little attention.

Stop with the conjecture and PRODUCE FACTS. Show me ONE report that EVEN HINTS at Ellis NOT BEING CONSTANTLY DOUBLE-TEAMED.

Go ahead, please do so. When you have one I will respond. Until then your points are considered as baseless and without ANY solid backing.

I've produced STATS of EVERY kind. I've gone out and backed my case. What have you done? Thrown around job descriptions. Those MEAN NOTHING. Success is EVERYTHING.

And yes, a 6'3" 320 lbs DT, who is quick and strong and balanced, as Marcus Thomas is, should be able to play the NT position; if that makes you happy. There is NO REASON on Earth why Thomas cannot pLay over center and absorb the surge. He's PERFECTLY built for that role.

I just don't see how anyone in their RIGHT FOOTBALL mind can ever HINT that Okam is in the same category as Elllis. It's beyond absurd. For if he was, he'd be a first-rounder and would be touted as such.

It's like saying: "Well, we'll take XYZ back even though he is only a 1&2 down back and can't block in passing situation. We'll take him out on 3rd downs." Guess what? I don't need such a back if he can't block! I couldn't care if he ran a 4.1 40. If he can't block he is incomplete.

Same with this DT conversation. If Okam can't push the pocket and shed blockers, like Ellis can, he's no better than what we've had.

muse
01-13-2008, 02:21 PM
Wow. You're getting very heated over two very promising prospects. Chill oooouuuut. Oh, and if you're going to put things in caps, spellcheck ;)

jrfernan
01-13-2008, 03:00 PM
Wow. You're getting very heated over two very promising prospects. Chill oooouuuut. Oh, and if you're going to put things in caps, spellcheck ;)

I completely agree with you that it's not worth getting upset over. And I apologize to all of you for my reaction.

However, I think I've been gracious enough to back my points with SOME DATA. Right? I've done my homework. I've looked up each man's stats, their opponents, their opponents' numbers etc. What has everyone else done?

Each time I've done that someone comes back saying something like: "Well, the system was set up so Ellis could get the stats". An absurd response.

Although I agree that defensive schemes are set up to benefit certain players' strengths, all that goes out the window with Elllis because VERY FEW college DTs were double-teamed as much as he was. You can argue against that until your face turns Orange(:D) but you will be wrong each time.

You will only be arguing form a THEORETICAL stance and not from one backed by FACTS. You will be throwing around descriptions of what SHOULD be this, or what SHOULD be that; gap this, slot that, nose the other, but the FACTS say otherwise. I like FACTS, stats, visuals and testimony by scouts. Those mean WAY MORE to me than theoreticals.

I've seen TOO MANY athletes over the years play at HIGH levels, yet weren't the optimal size for their position, but their INTENSITY and skill level more than made up for lack of size: Wes Unseld, Ben Wallace, Zac Thomas, Dwight Freeney, Ivan Rodriguez, our own Elvis Dumervil. The list goes on...

It bothers me when anyone, specially having the stats to back up their play, is dissed because of size. Or, because they played one way in college and now cannot play another style in the NFL. Says who?!

I've seen Reggie White, Randy White, Bruce Smith, Joe Green, heck, Kevin Green, and others have MULTIPLE sack games from DIFFERENT places on the field. On the same set of downs! LOL! With COMPLETELY different formations each time!

I've seen Randy White play nose tackle, middle linebacker, and rush from the end all in one game, each time getting his hands on the QB.

"Ah, but that's Randy White", you say. Yes, exactly my point. If a player is GREAT he can play MOST anywhere.

We need GREAT players on our D. I won't settle for less. And for that, I don't think any of you can fault me.

jrfernan
01-13-2008, 03:23 PM
Here's a rudimentary explanation, although accurate(football is NOT astrophysics) of the terminology used to describe the different types of defensive linemen:

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Football-Instruction-2069/Defensive-Line-Terminology.htm

"The defense on the other hand letters the gaps. For example, on either sides of the center are the A-gaps. The outside gaps of the guards are the B-gaps. And the out-side gaps of the tackles are the C-gaps.

Physical requirements for a nose tackle. six-foot-seven 390 pounds, must bench press 500 pounds, and have reflexes like a cat. Just kidding!

Most coaches can careless about the physical requirements. If you weigh 90-pounds and you can control both gaps you got the job. Yes I know, if you are a big guy it makes it easier to control both gaps. However, just because you are a big guy is no guarantee that you can do the job right.

A nose tackle no longer has to be able to control both A-gaps. In the old school, the nose tackle had to be able to fight off a double team by the center and either one of the two guards on offense.

In the new school, this is not always the case. The offensive guards have their hands full with the defensive tackles and cannot always help the center. This places the offensive center on an island, forcing the center to block the nose guard one-on-one. Therefore, the nose guard no longer needs any special skills to play this position. Anybody can do it even me. Just
kidding!"

I'm predicting that you'll say: "Who's this guy, saying this?" Does the guy have to be Bill Belichick for you to believe him? This guy is dead on and it's not much more complex than that.

It's simple: CAN THE MAN DO THE JOB!

beastlyskronk
01-13-2008, 03:57 PM
Here are individual stats for each man. Each having played in 13 games

------------------------Okam--------------- Ellis

Tackles solo------------- 17------------------ 29
Tackles assisted--------- 19------------------ 29
Tackles Total ------------36------------------ 58
Tackles per game-------- 2.77---------------- 4.46
Tackles for Loss---------- 8(for 61 yds) -------12.5(for 75 yds)
Sacks ------------------- 5(50 yds) -----------8.5(67 yds)
Passes Broken Up--------- 4------------------- 7
QB Hurries---------------- 7 -------------------1
Fumbles Forced----------- 1------------------- 0


So, what do we have? Well, CLEARLY Ellis is more productive. In some cases 50% or more productive. Is that significant? YOU BET!!!

In baseball terms Ellis is a .320 hitter and Okam a .270 hitter.

58 tackles -vs- 36 over 13 games is a BIG difference at DT. More sacks, more tackles for loss. IRONICALLY, with shorter arms Ellis broke up more passes! So much for the "DTs with long arms are better" theory.

So, your prejudice toward a smaller DT is in the wash, because it doesn't seem to matter does it?

Okay let me say this first shorten your posts I feel like I'm reading a novel when I read your posts.

Now to the stats. Considering Frank is a NT and Sedrick is a UT Frank has done better at getting to the QB. I'll explain most of the time NTs come out in obvious passing plays for another UT so Frank didn't get all the attempts at the QB than Ellis. Tackles are an overrated stat. Just because Frank has less doesn't mean he was less effective. You don't know maybe he made a back cut back into another player that can be more important than making a tackle. Also Okam has more QB pressures than Ellis which means Okam is slower than Ellis. If Okam was a little faster he could have had more sacks than Ellis.

Also the arm length comment wasn't talking about batting arms. It was meant at having the ability to separate himself or beat a linemen to the point of attack. Say he goes against a 6'6 guard he's automatically put at a disadvantage.

I noticed you like talking about leadership. Most DTs aren't really leaders. It's almost always the MLB or another LB. I can't name one team with a DT as a leader on the field. Off the field he could be more of a leader that's the only way.

Broncosinindy
01-13-2008, 04:56 PM
You are way too predictable: "Ellis was set up to get the stats while Okam's Job is to be a selfless player take on the blocks and let his Teammates get the plays"

I don't think you are old enough to remember what a REAL DT plays like, and you're way too caught up "titles" and "roles" to understand what a TRUE DT does. Any and ALL GREAT DTs have to PUSH the linemen, shed blocks, absorb surges and TACKLE; and some of the VERY ELITE sack the QBs. ANY DT that can't do ALL OF THAT is not a complete DT. The reason they have "slot this", "edge that", "gap the other" is because VERY FEW DTs today are complete players.

That being said, Ellis is MUCH MORE complete than Okam.

Do some RESEARCH on Ellis and you will learn he "absorbed" CONSTANT double teams and WON the battles. His scouting report(S) say as much. Watching him play tells us as much. In fact, it's one of his claims to FAME; namely, how successful he's been EVEN THOUGH he was CONSTANTLY double-teamed.

So ALL of your assertions and conclusions about Ellis being LEFT ALONE to roam and conquer is not only wrong, but it shows an extreme level of prejudice and/ignorance.

I CHALLENGE you to find ANY scouting report that even HINTS that Ellis was left alone and therefore padded his stats. I challenge you to find such a report.

You won't find a SINGLE report that says that. What you will find is that he "was constantly DOUBLE-TEAMED"; and yet look at his stats! That doesn't sound like a "gap" guy to me. Doesn't sound like a "little" guy that was left alone because ALL HE DID was rush the passer and was a little pest that warranted little attention.

Stop with the conjecture and PRODUCE FACTS. Show me ONE report that EVEN HINTS at Ellis NOT BEING CONSTANTLY DOUBLE-TEAMED.

Go ahead, please do so. When you have one I will respond. Until then your points are considered as baseless and without ANY solid backing.

I've produced STATS of EVERY kind. I've gone out and backed my case. What have you done? Thrown around job descriptions. Those MEAN NOTHING. Success is EVERYTHING.

And yes, a 6'3" 320 lbs DT, who is quick and strong and balanced, as Marcus Thomas is, should be able to play the NT position; if that makes you happy. There is NO REASON on Earth why Thomas cannot pLay over center and absorb the surge. He's PERFECTLY built for that role.

I just don't see how anyone in their RIGHT FOOTBALL mind can ever HINT that Okam is in the same category as Elllis. It's beyond absurd. For if he was, he'd be a first-rounder and would be touted as such.

It's like saying: "Well, we'll take XYZ back even though he is only a 1&2 down back and can't block in passing situation. We'll take him out on 3rd downs." Guess what? I don't need such a back if he can't block! I couldn't care if he ran a 4.1 40. If he can't block he is incomplete.

Same with this DT conversation. If Okam can't push the pocket and shed blockers, like Ellis can, he's no better than what we've had.

Now you are of the arguement that he took on double teams. RE-READ my post you wil see that i said he WILL face doube teams it is his JOB as a UT to SPLIT the double team and get in the backfield(i feel like a broken record) He was Elite in college as a DT i never said he wasnt HIS skillset which is what he does best is Penetrate. He can take on double teams and defeat them no doubt. i did not see him (and i watched him alot)Constantly take on double and triple teams and hold the LOS that is not his job. Am i not speaking english here? or do you just not understand what i am saying?

Seriously what is your point. i say look at the offensive line. We use quick smaller offensive lineman that use great technique and are able to move laterally and get to the second leval. now if we tried to fit in a guy that is not that fast does not move laterally very well. cannot reach the second leval and uses his weight rather then technique. just wont fit in our offense and to deny that is just ubsurd. it is we known. i am using this example that even though there all lineman they have differant strengths and weaknesses some players fit in a certain scheme and some dont. try to put lepsis or hamilton in a power scheme and say what happens.

Or back in the day when there was option QB's they coud not effectively play in a drop back scheme. uness they were ELITE players. or trying to fit a drop back QB in a option scheme. its just silly to try and fit a guy that just does not fit.

Jim Bates required his tackles to be space eaters. Where they engage the Offensive lineman and to free up the LB to fill the hole and make the stop. We let our Defensive Ends a one gap responseability which was the outside gap and basically fly to the QB. We really needed Ends that were quick off the snap and could turn the corner. You are right Okam may not be a well rounded player but he is a DOMINANT NT who is able to push the pocket. bullrushing his man right into the QB. someone noted a video of Okam where he smashed the offensive gaurd right into the QB. i have seen him do this on occasion his speed is not near ellis but he had did have quite a few QBH.
i really could go on for a bit in differant schemes. but since you do not understand the point that Teams really do use differant schemesthen i dont know what to say

Its like that just on the defense as well.

Denying that there is a differance in style of play and players that fit a particular schme is just silly and if your going to continue to compare Okam and Ellis as players that dont use the same skillset is just ignorant. it is not my job to make you understand. i would just simply think that you would know.

and just to let you know Scouting reports are not always acurate. there personal opionons and they conflict quite abit. try and find me two reports that are exactly the same. i would rather watch and get a opionon for myself

Oh and your stats are in conflict with these.
http://www.mackbrown-texasfootball.com/index.php?s=url_channel_id=15&change_well_id=17&member_id=64
SENIOR (2007)
Started all 12 games … a member of the Bednarik Award, Lombardi Award and Outland Trophy watch lists … tabbed first-team All-Big 12 by the Fort Worth Star-Telegram and second-team All-Big 12 by The Associated Press and the league’s coaches … voted a captain by his teammates … earned one of the Dr. Nasser Al-Rashid Strength & Conditioning Awards and was named one of UT’s Outstanding Defensive Linemen … a first-team Academic All-Big 12 selection … helped UT allow just 99.3 rushing yards per game (10th NCAA) … tallied 49 tackles, 10 TFL, a team-high five sacks, 16 pressures, four PBD, a forced fumble and a fumble recovery … recorded five tackles, including three TFL and 1.5 sacks, a PBD and a pressure against Arkansas State … added a tackle against No. 19 TCU … posted four tackles, a PBD and three pressures at UCF … tallied four tackles, including three TFL and two sacks, a PBD and a pressure versus Rice … posted a tackle and two pressures against Kansas State … recorded seven tackles and three pressures versus No. 10 Oklahoma … tallied two stops at Iowa State … posted four tackles, a PBD and two pressures at Baylor … recorded six tackles, including two TFL and a sack, and a pressure against Nebraska … also forced and recovered a fumble that set up a TD versus the Huskers … notched seven tackles at Oklahoma State … posted two stops and a pressure against Texas Tech … added six tackles, two TFL, a half sack and two pressures at Texas A&M.

also they conflict with these
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/profile.php?pyid=33733

Frank Okam -- 52 total tackles (25 solo tackles, 27 assisted). 11 tackles for 69 yards loss. 5 sacks. 5 batted passes. 16 QB hurries. 1 forced fumble.

Please give me the site where you got these stats. cause mine conflict obviosuly your homework wasnt done i grade you with a F

one more edit. QBH can also be just as effective as sacks. i have seen reports as many as 17 that is more then alot of DE's

Broncosinindy
01-13-2008, 04:59 PM
Wow. You're getting very heated over two very promising prospects. Chill oooouuuut. Oh, and if you're going to put things in caps, spellcheck ;)

way to add to the discussion...:salute:

Broncosinindy
01-13-2008, 05:01 PM
Okay let me say this first shorten your posts I feel like I'm reading a novel when I read your posts.

Now to the stats. Considering Frank is a NT and Sedrick is a UT Frank has done better at getting to the QB. I'll explain most of the time NTs come out in obvious passing plays for another UT so Frank didn't get all the attempts at the QB than Ellis. Tackles are an overrated stat. Just because Frank has less doesn't mean he was less effective. You don't know maybe he made a back cut back into another player that can be more important than making a tackle. Also Okam has more QB pressures than Ellis which means Okam is slower than Ellis. If Okam was a little faster he could have had more sacks than Ellis.

Also the arm length comment wasn't talking about batting arms. It was meant at having the ability to separate himself or beat a linemen to the point of attack. Say he goes against a 6'6 guard he's automatically put at a disadvantage.

I noticed you like talking about leadership. Most DTs aren't really leaders. It's almost always the MLB or another LB. I can't name one team with a DT as a leader on the field. Off the field he could be more of a leader that's the only way.

sometimes being really tall can be a disadvantage ..leverage.. look at how well dumervil does. he gets Engulfed at the POT. and we get crushed in the run game but he is really a potential elite guy when chasing down philip rivers haha

beastlyskronk
01-13-2008, 05:14 PM
sometimes being really tall can be a disadvantage ..everage.. look at how well dumervil does. he gets Engulfed at the POT.

He does so well though because he has extremely long arms and he punches the linemen extremely fast throwing the linemen off balance but if the linemen hits him first he loses that's why he isn't good in the run game. The one game that proves this is the Houston game. Ephraim Salaam hit him first on almost every passing play and Dumervil was completely taken out of the game.

PLEASE STOP THE NOVELS!!!

Broncosinindy
01-13-2008, 05:15 PM
He does so well though because he has extremely long arms and he punches the linemen extremely fast throwing the linemen off balance but if the linemen hits him first he loses that's why he isn't good in the run game. The one game that proves this is the Houston game. Ephraim Salaam hit him first on almost every passing play and Dumervil was completely taken out of the game.

PLEASE STOP THE NOVELS!!!


sometimes novels must be wrote to convince. if that doesnt work they work well as weapons :) to pound the info in some peoples heads.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
01-13-2008, 05:20 PM
I watched Ellis every play in his bowl game for the 1st half. He was doubled once that I recall. He was stonewalled by a single blocker quite often, but he was very impressive in moving laterally down the line and staying in the play. He made a few tackles on running plays that way. But he was not doubled in that game.


On the other hand, I detailed and listed every snap Okam played in his bowl game. He was doubled 60% of his snaps and actually was tripled on 4 plays, which was really comical to watch. Okam had minimal stats in his bowl game but he dominated the game. He's the reason the Texas defense only allowed 20 yards rushing the entire game. Every other player was free to make plays, and the few times Okam was left one on one be destroyed his blocker.


Now, to be fair, the level of competition each team faced was decidedly different. Ellis faced much stiffer talent. Both players did not lose ground, but Okam was easily more dominant in his game. I don't think that can be said for the season though as scouts must have seen something somewhere to explain why Okam isn't being talked about as a top pick.

beastlyskronk
01-13-2008, 05:21 PM
sometimes novels must be wrote to convince. if that doesnt work they work well as weapons :) to pound the info in some peoples heads.

You can't beat someone with a novel on the computer. Also I don't read them I skip until I see a short post.

stnzed
01-13-2008, 05:23 PM
Now that you bring up Dumervil, Indy, the size of the players Denver already has is the main reason I wouldn't take Ellis.

A starting D-line of a 260LB LE, a 315LB DT, a 305LB DT and a 260LB RE hints to a scheme of defense that I don't like......A defense built on speed and quickness alone that becomes more of a nuisance than a real defense in the hands of DC's like Slowik.

A defense has to have an anchor.

Personally, I'll take a Bulldog over a Chijuajua.....

Broncosinindy
01-13-2008, 05:25 PM
You can't beat someone with a novel on the computer. Also I don't read them I skip until I see a short post.

my comment was not directed to you. but if the shoe fits....

Really i am not gonna shorten my posts just for you mah man. if you dont like the novel man please skip em

Broncosinindy
01-13-2008, 05:28 PM
Now that you bring up Dumervil, Indy, the size of the players Denver already has is the main reason I wouldn't take Ellis.

A starting D-line of a 260LB LE, a 315LB DT, a 305LB DT and a 260LB RE hints to a scheme of defense that I don't like......A defense built on speed and quickness alone that becomes more of a nuisance than a real defense in the hands of DC's like Slowik.

Personally, I'll take a Bulldog over a Chijuajua.....

whats funny is i have a Block head pit that is about 80lbs and a chiuaua that is like 6lbs great stuff. and i aggree to a certain extent. i liked bates philosphy we just couldnt get the payers to play it. the scheme has had great success where ever it has been utilized. but i feel the scheme slowik will run will fit our players better,. another reason why we shouldnt switch cordinators every two years.or so

beastlyskronk
01-13-2008, 05:45 PM
my comment was not directed to you. but if the shoe fits....

Really i am not gonna shorten my posts just for you mah man. if you dont like the novel man please skip em

I was talking about jrfernan's posts. Yours have been short enough barely.

Broncosinindy
01-13-2008, 05:49 PM
I was talking about jrfernan's posts. Yours have been short enough barely.

lol saweet

jrfernan
01-13-2008, 06:54 PM
Seriously what is your point.........

.....but since you do not understand the point that Teams really do use differant schemesthen i dont know what to say

....Denying that there is a differance in style of play and players that fit a particular schme is just silly and if your going to continue to compare Okam and Ellis as players that dont use the same skillset is just ignorant. it is not my job to make you understand. i would just simply think that you would know.

Please give me the site where you got these stats. cause mine conflict.

This is where I get all of my college football stats: http://www.cfbstats.com/
So far I've found no bias, slant or blatant inaccuracy.They've been pretty consistent all year long.

First of all, football is not as complex as some would make you think. There are NO geniuses in football. The geniuses are all doing cancer research or making bombs. :sad: The game doesn't require superior intellect as some fields of work do. Otherwise, we'd have every roster in the NFL replete with Ivy Leaguers.

That said, I COMPLETELY understand the different DT roles in both the 3-4 and 4-3 schemes. In FULLY understand that our traditional Bronco scheme is a 4-3 with variants of 1 and 2 gap players, according to the D coach and what flavors and combinations they prefer.

My point, since you've asked, is that we need to IMPROVE our DEFENSE. Not by a little, but by A LOT! That's been MY ONLY ISSUE on this and my other thread. You've yet to hear me write a single thing about offense. I'm not smart enough to do two things at once! So I stick to defense first. Maybe later on as we approach draft day I'll get into the offensive side of the draft. :D

You'd like to see the D improve as well, but you are looking at a different way to get it done.

You feel that we need a HUGE space eater that can play 2 gap. That is why, you and others, favor Okam. And I can see why. He's big! And THEORETICALLY he should be able to absorb one, or more, OL at the line of scrimmage and then we can have our LBs play the gaps around the OL the DT is locking up.

I, however, don't agree that we need a 2 gap D line. I think we'd be setting ourselves up for failure against passing teams that are not afraid to throw on first and second down. We'd be easy targets of play action and other trickery that Indy, NE and MANY other teams are running today. Think about the Houston game. We got burnt on the play action.

In fact, NE's win over JVille solidified the point that YOU MUST put a rush on Brady, otherwise you have NO chance of winninng.

I'd MUCH prefer a 1 gap DT system with lighter, faster DTs that can penetrate the gaps and take the load off the LBs. And, can CHANGE DIRECTION on a drop of a dime. THAT'S WHY I favor Ellis.

Granted, we can have a combination of an NT as a 2 gap and a DT as a 1 gap. You've asked me that earlier and I said that I was OK with Thomas playing NT and Ellis DT. There is NO RULE that says a NT MUST BE 6'6" 360 lbs. Sure, it'd be nice, if the other team ran the ball 90% of the time. But, the hulking, bulky, slower NTs don't do well against the pass. It's a proven fact.

Plus, and I've SEEN THIS TIME AND AGAIN, a team like Indy will no-huddle you and not give you a chance to substitue on passing downs, locking you into keeping your sloth DT in on a passing down. Thus having ample time to throw because there's no rush up the middle.

I like players that play EVERY down. Sure, with Ellis you may be giving up running yards against a team or two. But, and I've been trying to highlight this for days now, Ellis is good enough that you can leave him in there against running teams. His STRENGTH overcomes his deficiencies. I firmly believe this.

To conclude, I propose drafting Ellis and working Thomas to NT. Marcus is strong and CERTAINLY athletic enough to be used in a two DT 1 gap system, or use him as an NT. He was a NT at FL and there is no reason why we couldn't play the same spot in the NFL.

One more thing, Marcus is NOT a very good 1 gap guy. He's not very fast. Something like a 5.2 in the 40 Yikes! Ellis is like 4.8x. That's a perfect combo. Ellis DT, Thomas NT

jrfernan
01-13-2008, 07:07 PM
Now, to be fair, the level of competition each team faced was decidedly different. Ellis faced much stiffer talent. Both players did not lose ground, but Okam was easily more dominant in his game. I don't think that can be said for the season though as scouts must have seen something somewhere to explain why Okam isn't being talked about as a top pick.

I think that guys like Okam are one, maybe two dimensional. And Ellis and Dorsey are multi talented and have more to offer. Why else would this big DT, from a big school, with the spot light on him since the presason(since last year, actually) would be ranked so low? Some scout sheets have him as low as 4 or 5. Why is a guy with his talent level a 3rd team All-American?

I know some of you don't like to hear the words All-American, but it is what it is. One thing would be second team, but third? SOMETHING is wrong, for sure.

Wonder if it's his work ethic? If so, then he's a risk. We're better off looking elsewhere.

beastlyskronk
01-13-2008, 07:45 PM
This is where I get all of my college football stats: http://www.cfbstats.com/
So far I've found no bias, slant or blatant inaccuracy.They've been pretty consistent all year long.

First of all, football is not as complex as some would make you think. There are NO geniuses in football. The geniuses are all doing cancer research or making bombs. :sad: The game doesn't require superior intellect as some fields of work do. Otherwise, we'd have every roster in the NFL replete with Ivy Leaguers.

That said, I COMPLETELY understand the different DT roles in both the 3-4 and 4-3 schemes. In FULLY understand that our traditional Bronco scheme is a 4-3 with variants of 1 and 2 gap players, according to the D coach and what flavors and combinations they prefer.

My point, since you've asked, is that we need to IMPROVE our DEFENSE. Not by a little, but by A LOT! That's been MY ONLY ISSUE on this and my other thread. You've yet to hear me write a single thing about offense. I'm not smart enough to do two things at once! So I stick to defense first. Maybe later on as we approach draft day I'll get into the offensive side of the draft. :D

You'd like to see the D improve as well, but you are looking at a different way to get it done.

You feel that we need a HUGE space eater that can play 2 gap. That is why, you and others, favor Okam. And I can see why. He's big! And THEORETICALLY he should be able to absorb one, or more, OL at the line of scrimmage and then we can have our LBs play the gaps around the OL the DT is locking up.

I, however, don't agree that we need a 2 gap D line. I think we'd be setting ourselves up for failure against passing teams that are not afraid to throw on first and second down. We'd be easy targets of play action and other trickery that Indy, NE and MANY other teams are running today. Think about the Houston game. We got burnt on the play action.

In fact, NE's win over JVille solidified the point that YOU MUST put a rush on Brady, otherwise you have NO chance of winninng.

I'd MUCH prefer a 1 gap DT system with lighter, faster DTs that can penetrate the gaps and take the load off the LBs. And, can CHANGE DIRECTION on a drop of a dime. THAT'S WHY I favor Ellis.

Granted, we can have a combination of an NT as a 2 gap and a DT as a 1 gap. You've asked me that earlier and I said that I was OK with Thomas playing NT and Ellis DT. There is NO RULE that says a NT MUST BE 6'6" 360 lbs. Sure, it'd be nice, if the other team ran the ball 90% of the time. But, the hulking, bulky, slower NTs don't do well against the pass. It's a proven fact.

Plus, and I've SEEN THIS TIME AND AGAIN, a team like Indy will no-huddle you and not give you a chance to substitue on passing downs, locking you into keeping your sloth DT in on a passing down. Thus having ample time to throw because there's no rush up the middle.

I like players that play EVERY down. Sure, with Ellis you may be giving up running yards against a team or two. But, and I've been trying to highlight this for days now, Ellis is good enough that you can leave him in there against running teams. His STRENGTH overcomes his deficiencies. I firmly believe this.

To conclude, I propose drafting Ellis and working Thomas to NT. Marcus is strong and CERTAINLY athletic enough to be used in a two DT 1 gap system, or use him as an NT. He was a NT at FL and there is no reason why we couldn't play the same spot in the NFL.

One more thing, Marcus is NOT a very good 1 gap guy. He's not very fast. Something like a 5.2 in the 40 Yikes! Ellis is like 4.8x. That's a perfect combo. Ellis DT, Thomas NT

STOP WITH THE EPICALLY LONG NOVELS!!!

I only read the last part of that because it's too long. Marcus Thomas did not run a 5.2 he ran a 5.02 while Ellis ran a 4.98 not much difference buddy. ;)

draco193
01-13-2008, 08:52 PM
First of all, football is not as complex as some would make you think. There are NO geniuses in football. The geniuses are all doing cancer research or making bombs. :sad: The game doesn't require superior intellect as some fields of work do. Otherwise, we'd have every roster in the NFL replete with Ivy Leaguers.



It is however a game of strategy and complexity. Theres a reason why you have people that spend an entire week gameplanning for an opponent. You do have the smart people on the coaching staff.



I, however, don't agree that we need a 2 gap D line. I think we'd be setting ourselves up for failure against passing teams that are not afraid to throw on first and second down. We'd be easy targets of play action and other trickery that Indy, NE and MANY other teams are running today. Think about the Houston game. We got burnt on the play action.

In fact, NE's win over JVille solidified the point that YOU MUST put a rush on Brady, otherwise you have NO chance of winninng.


We do however have two of the best running backs in the league, in our division. We got burnt on play action because we had no safety help, because we could not stop the run at all. We need to be able to stop that. We have the back half to stop the passing game, if we dont always have to play 8 in the box (and if we find a LB that can cover a TE).

The Patriots beat up on everybody this year, even the colts who have that very light D line that is very good at rushing the passer.




Granted, we can have a combination of an NT as a 2 gap and a DT as a 1 gap. You've asked me that earlier and I said that I was OK with Thomas playing NT and Ellis DT. There is NO RULE that says a NT MUST BE 6'6" 360 lbs. Sure, it'd be nice, if the other team ran the ball 90% of the time. But, the hulking, bulky, slower NTs don't do well against the pass. It's a proven fact.

Okam however had 7 Qb pressures, and 5 sacks according to your stats. He is good at creating pressure. And, He can more than hold his own against the run. Just what we need.



I like players that play EVERY down. Sure, with Ellis you may be giving up running yards against a team or two. But, and I've been trying to highlight this for days now, Ellis is good enough that you can leave him in there against running teams. His STRENGTH overcomes his deficiencies. I firmly believe this.

To conclude, I propose drafting Ellis and working Thomas to NT. Marcus is strong and CERTAINLY athletic enough to be used in a two DT 1 gap system, or use him as an NT. He was a NT at FL and there is no reason why we couldn't play the same spot in the NFL.


He did poorly this year when he forced into that NT role. He definitley fits the UT mold in the league. We dont need two guys that can be blown back by a single guy, and let LT and LJ run rampant.

Not knocking Ellis, but, hes not what we need imo.




STOP WITH THE EPICALLY LONG NOVELS!!!

I only read the last part of that because it's too long. Marcus Thomas did not run a 5.2 he ran a 5.02 while Ellis ran a 4.98 not much difference buddy.


Stop complaining about post length, just stop reading this thread if you dont like it.

jrfernan
01-13-2008, 09:50 PM
STOP WITH THE EPICALLY LONG NOVELS!!!

I only read the last part of that because it's too long. Marcus Thomas did not run a 5.2 he ran a 5.02 while Ellis ran a 4.98 not much difference buddy. ;)

This is a free forum for expressing thoughts about the Denver Broncos. I didn't think we were in Marxist China. I don't see where you've been appointed "post monitor". You are not obligated to read my posts. If they are too long for you, please read someone else's. I won't be the least bit offended if you block me or ignore me.

Suggestion: take a speed reading class.

There are different times quoted on those two guys, I took what I found more consistent.

jrfernan
01-13-2008, 10:32 PM
I appreciate your reply. It's welcomed and makes for better conversation than what's been available thus far. Thanks!


We dont need two guys that can be blown back by a single guy, and let LT and LJ run rampant.

I have issue with assuming that SIZE, BULK etc. will make a better DT. Again, THEORETICALLY that would be the reasonable thing to think. But, there's historical precedent to refute that "theory". Case in point is our tradition for having smaller, more athletic OL.

When our team was winning SPs we had one of the smaller O lines in the league. At one point it was THE LIGHTEST in the league. Yet, we were running people over and setting record after record(to include some SP records set by TD). It was completely unprecedented given the trend the Skins had started with the "hogs". We went completely against the grain and it worked.

Granted, that O line scheme was not a Shanahan patent because the Niners had used that scheme earlier on when they gave birth to the WCO.

You may say that I'm comparing apples to pineapples when bringing up our O line in the context of D line conversation, but I'm really not. Look at Indy's D last year. Almost a mirror image of ours, as far as size is concerned. They were pretty bad against the run during 2/3 of the regular season. Then SOMETHING happened! They got it together and played INCREDIBLY! Their defense was GREAT the last 1/3 of the reg season and into the playoffs. One of the best D performances in recent memory. The speed with which they played is really legendary. And they've kept it up this year. Indy didn't have a bad D at all this season. Injuries killed them this year. Had they been injury free, they may have challenged for the Super Bowl; at least moreso than they did.

You raise a good point I hadn't really considered and one that may bag my idea of getting Ellis. Namely, that Thomas played some NT this year and wasn't very successful. Does that mean we should give up on him at NT? We could. But should we? Did he play so bad as to write him off COMPLETELY?

If the coaches have given up on him, then you are 100% right. Ellis is out of the running. We'll see. Every year there are draft day surprises and this year may not be any different.

draco193
01-13-2008, 11:07 PM
I have issue with assuming that SIZE, BULK etc. will make a better DT. Again, THEORETICALLY that would be the reasonable thing to think. But, there's historical precedent to refute that "theory". Case in point is our tradition for having smaller, more athletic OL.


I completely agree. If a guy can play, he can play. Ellis played at a very high level all year. He is a guy that has a great chance to be a very good player.

I didnt get to see Ellis play a whole lot (didnt get a lot of USC games here). I did get to see Okam play, and he constantly was being double teamed, and does not leave the field a lot. Teams payed a lot of attention to him. He is a guy that can cause offensive lines a lot of trouble, an he is extremely solid against the run. I think MUG is right about him being a first round talent, and a guy that will be special.



You raise a good point I hadn't really considered and one that may bag my idea of getting Ellis. Namely, that Thomas played some NT this year and wasn't very successful. Does that mean we should give up on him at NT? We could. But should we? Did he play so bad as to write him off COMPLETELY?

If the coaches have given up on him, then you are 100% right. Ellis is out of the running. We'll see. Every year there are draft day surprises and this year may not be any different.

I think Marcus will be a good UT in the NFL. I dont think he is as suited to play a true NT role. I hope the coaching staff gets him to be the player they think he can be, whether its a NT or UT. They know this stuff better than me.

And agreed that the draft will certainly be full of surprises, hopefully all good ones for us.:salute:

jrfernan
01-14-2008, 09:35 AM
I didnt get to see Ellis play a whole lot (didnt get a lot of USC games here). I did get to see Okam play, and he constantly was being double teamed, and does not leave the field a lot. Teams payed a lot of attention to him. He is a guy that can cause offensive lines a lot of trouble, an he is extremely solid against the run. I think MUG is right about him being a first round talent, and a guy that will be special.


So, you(and MUG) are saying that Okam is first round material? Hmm...

That raises a good point and the following question: If Okam will fit our scheme/need better than Ellis, specially because we currently have MThomas who cannot play NT, then should we get him in the First?

If he's THAT good then he won't be around in the second round, 12th pick. Why gamble and wait until that far to get a guy who's that good and a guy who can fit one of OUR BIGGEST needs?

But that raises the question of: Do we need defense in the first round or offense? If defense, do we go safety, LB or DT? And of course, that will be debated forever on this forum.

But I'm a numbers guy and our numbers on offense were respectable this year, with our running attack gaining more yards than both NE and Indy and a bit short of SD, but not by much. Our D, on the other hand, was horrendous.

IMO, if we wait until the second round to take a DT what we are saying is: "yeah, we have a need at DT but it's not worth throwing top talen at it. We can find most any big body to throw in there and get the job done." Depending on where we take a DT will tell us how serious Mike Shanahan is about setting this franchise straight.

Of course, there's always free agency.

Don't hold your breath waiting for Albert Haynesworth. I HIGHLY doubt he's leaving TN. Specially now that he's had a taste of the playoffs. He's not going to come to Denver unless we throw franchise money at him. Indy would like more help on the D line and so would a few other BETTER teams. Players want money, but once they've had a taste of winning they're careful about going a step or two back by landing on a losing team. We're in for the long haul in the process of rebuilding our D. It's not going to be as easy as saying: "Don't worry about the D, we'll sort it out in FAgency."

We could say that back in the day when we had Elway(when we picked up Romo, Alfred Williams, Neil Smith et al). But what do we have to offer that Indy, SD or the Bengals don't?

Broncosinindy
01-14-2008, 11:00 AM
I had a big response to this but i am not gonna retype


!. My whole areguement was based on that you cannot compare them because they play differant positions. I think we have sufficiently covered that. You can compare them however to who wethink we should draft and have the biggest impact and what we feel is our greatest need.

2. Seriously trying to pin you down to a answer is not easy are you a polotician because you deflect like one.

3. If you have read anything out of dove valley FA will not be a means to aquire top tier talent atleast for the forseeable future. i dont know what round but i know we wil select a RB i wouldnt doubt it if it was in the first. Everythign i got from shannys presser is that he is comfortable with our offensive line.so i think it comes down to DT, LB, S, RB if we cut Travis henry like its being speculated.

4. You keep making me out to be this big Ellis hater which i am not. i like his game quite to the contrary and think we would be smart to aquire him. but he wont be there when we pick so we can pretty much forget it

Mat'hir Uth Gan
01-14-2008, 11:02 AM
Penetrating 3-techniques are generally always more of a premium then a True Nose Tackle. Okam is not quite as physically gifted as Haloti Ngata, but he's every bit as good as Vince Wilfork. But none of those guys are pure penetrating pass rushing types, and all get tired and need to be rested over the course of a game.

Penetrating DTs, like Ellis, can generally play more snaps and make a larger individual impact. Teams seem to like that.

I, personally, prefer the clogging Nose Tackle type. They aren't very flashy, and only make a handful of plays a game, but they make everyone around them much better. I believe Frank Okam is an elite calibur Nose Tackle, so *I* would have no problems drafting him at 12 overall. However, for realistic purposes, as of this moment, that would be a mega-reach. And very few teams do need over value.

If the Broncos can trade down to the 20s, then I think Okam could be a 1st round option. But there is also the possibility that he slips to us in the 2nd round due to all these talented juniors coming out, or that he falls in the draft like some of the clogging Nose Tackles have as of late to the mid rounds. Though, I don't think that's likely.

But my belief is that Okam is the only legit Nose Tackle in this draft with a chance to be a superstar. There are many Quasi-Nose types that could turn out to be dominant such as Dorsey, Balmer, Sims, and Harrison. And most of those guys should still be available in the 2nd round when we pick.


So, I would prefer us to get Okam, but that's going to require a lot of draft manipulation and guessing, and it would require us to use a different type of player in Slowik's scheme then he usually does. Which makes me think Okam is not an option for us. The consolation prize is that there will be some good Quasi-nose types in the early 2nd round and I think that's the route we will likely take, though I do not like it.

I do not think Sedrick Ellis is even an option as I don't think we trade up to the #7-8 area.

Astrass
01-14-2008, 11:30 AM
In a bates scheme, Okam would have been a better fit. But now I'm not too sure. Ellis is an exciting prospect. I'd like to see us draft him but I don't know if we are better served going for Phillips or Rivers (if he does well at the combine etc).

Broncosinindy
01-14-2008, 11:54 AM
In a bates scheme, Okam would have been a better fit. But now I'm not too sure. Ellis is an exciting prospect. I'd like to see us draft him but I don't know if we are better served going for Phillips or Rivers (if he does well at the combine etc).i would puke if we picked either of those two guys you mentioned that high The LB becuase LB is so dang deep this year. and safety because i think he will flop

jrfernan
01-14-2008, 01:05 PM
Seriously trying to pin you down to a answer is not easy are you a polotician because you deflect like one.


Woh! Let's slow down and, if necessary, start things over. I have not wanted to give you the impression that I'm evading your questions. It's just that there are TOO MANY posts going on at once! LOL!

Not sure how you can safely reach that conclusion when you've asked me ONE question and Ive responded. You've asked me if I thought that we could move MThomas to NT and I said I thought that he could do it; hence allowing us to draft Ellis.

We may disagree on that, but that's my take. I could be COMPLETELY wrong on that. I am willing to admit that. And I've done so in another post. I'm not sure what else you want from me.

Just ask a question and I'll be glad to answer it to the best of my ability. But please ask them one, or two at a time so I can address them easier.

I will say this though.........about the numbers I posted earlier.....

If, THEORETICALLY(again I throw that in!), a big NT clogs gaps and consumes multiple tacklers, then the SAME THOERY tells us that it would free up the OTHERS on the D to make the tackles, right? This is NOT a rhetorical question, btw, I'd like an answer if possible.

(I'll answer my own question while waiting for your reply) ....Per theory, that's exactly what's supposed to happen.

Interestingly, when I look at the tackles total for USC and TX for the entire season I see that starting USC LBs and DBs have MORE tackles than their TX counterparts. Take a look yourself. http://www.cfbstats.com

So, I ask myself: If Okam is this sponge that absorbs all of these blockers and frees up the others to make tackes, why aren't the others making more tackles?

If you look at the stats you will see that each team has SEVEN men with over 50+ tackles, with USC having a couple with HIGHER tackle totals than any one on the TX side. With Elllis being in the top five on USC.

So, if Ellis is benefiting from a USC system that helps him to get more tackles than Okam, how is it that OTHERS on USC are making MORE tackles than their counterparts on the TX squad? If Ellis is making more tackles then LOGIC dictates that he'd be TAKING tackles that LBs and CBs would be making? Right? But, I don't see that. I see HIGHER tackle numbers on the USC side by their starting LBs and CBs. Interesting, I think.

Seems to me that the TX LBs and DBs should be making more tackles than their USC counterparts. Since Okam is making less tackles than Ellis, the tackles have to be going SOMEWHERE? Yet, I see lower numbers by individuals.

The obvious answer is that TX does more substituting than USC; hence spreading out the tackles among more players. When I look at the stats I see that TX has 18 men with at least 20 tackles or more; USC has 16 men. That could account for where the tackles are going that Okam is not making. But, unless we have film or are intimately familiar with either squad, we'll never know how much subsituting is REALLY going on with TX. We'd be guessing.

I don't think we can find a "downs played" stat. If anyone does, please post the link. That would be VERY benefitial.

"Well, but you are comparing apples and oranges", you will say. Am I? I don't think so.

I've yet to find a stat that says that Okam was taken out on third downs or that he played less downs than Ellis. I've searched, but it's difficult to find. So, we can only assume that he was either in, or out. I like to think he was in because why would their top DT be taken out? But, some of you say he was taken out on passing downs.

That raises more questions: Is that what we REALLY need? A guy who can play well, for 1 or 2 downs? Or, do we draft a smaller guy who may not be ideal for stopping the run, but may be more effective overall?

It's difficult to argue against the success that TBay and Indy have had with smaller linemen over the past few years. I'd like to see a D like that in Denver! Wouldn't bother me a bit. I'd be a happy fan!

jrfernan
01-14-2008, 02:30 PM
Looking through the TBay and Indy roster, when looking at their DTs, it looks like a replica of ours; from a size perspective. I don't see anyone 6'6" 350 lbs on either squad. Their NTs are just like ours in size.

Each team relying on speed and gap linemen.

So, YET another question: Are we too concerned about the SIZE of the player instead of being MORE concerned about pure talent and about coaching and applying the talent that these players have?

Take a team like TB and swap defenses with ours and we're a playoff team again! And we probably go further in the playoffs than they did; considering we have a better O.

I see no hulking behemoths on their squad, yet, they are TOPS in D again!!

Why?

Bronco_Neddie
01-14-2008, 03:29 PM
You can't beat someone with a novel on the computer. Also I don't read them I skip until I see a short post.

That explains why your contributions to this thread are of such great magnitude. Kinda like this one was. >end sarcasm<

p.s. Hope this was short enough for you to stop & read.:rolleyes:

jrfernan
01-14-2008, 03:43 PM
That explains why your contributions to this thread are of such great magnitude. Kinda like this one was. >end sarcasm<

p.s. Hope this was short enough for you to stop & read.:rolleyes:

Classic! :D

Mat'hir Uth Gan
01-14-2008, 05:06 PM
Looking through the TBay and Indy roster, when looking at their DTs, it looks like a replica of ours; from a size perspective. I don't see anyone 6'6" 350 lbs on either squad. Their NTs are just like ours in size.

Each team relying on speed and gap linemen.

So, YET another question: Are we too concerned about the SIZE of the player instead of being MORE concerned about pure talent and about coaching and applying the talent that these players have?

Take a team like TB and swap defenses with ours and we're a playoff team again! And we probably go further in the playoffs than they did; considering we have a better O.

I see no hulking behemoths on their squad, yet, they are TOPS in D again!!

Why?


Indy and Tampa play a Cover-2 Defense, we do not. We'd have to completely retool our personnel to play that type of scheme.


As for the DT stat comparison...you need to be looking at the other D-linemen first and foremost, then the middle linebackers. I'm not sure why you looked at cornerbacks. The main idea of a Nose Tackle is that he frees up his fellow defensive lineman to play one on one and get more sacks and stuffs. And since the MIKE plays behind him, generally their stuff totals will jet up as well.

jrfernan
01-14-2008, 05:59 PM
Indy and Tampa play a Cover-2 Defense, we do not. We'd have to completely retool our personnel to play that type of scheme.

I think we'd need some adjustments, for sure, but to COMPLETELY RETOOL our personnel! Why? please explain. Provide details as to what changes we need to make? Thanks!



As for the DT stat comparison...you need to be looking at the other D-linemen first and foremost, then the middle linebackers. I'm not sure why you looked at cornerbacks. The to play one on one and get more sacks and stuffs. And since the MIKE plays behind him, generally their stuff totals will jet up as well.

MUG, i like your persistence! You shoud appreciate Ellis because he too plays with persistence and intensity. He's your guy! LOL!


main idea of a Nose Tackle is that he frees up his fellow defensive lineman.

EXACTLY my point! :) But I am NOT seeing that. At least not on paper. And coaches and GMs' are NOT going to view film of every single down that every DT in the draft played because that would mean HUNDREDS of hours of viewing, dozens of players. Maybe for quarterbacks, but not for DLs. They will look at production stats as we're doing as well as film. And the stas tells something very interesting abotu Okam and Ellis.

So, you don't like the fact that Ellis made his DBs better tacklers? :D OK, let's look at the linebackers and DL on each squad:

Texas top tackling LBs and DLs:

Name---------------Pos---G----- Solo-----Assisted--- Total---- Total/G
Rashad Bobino-------LB---13----- 36--------- 24------- 60------ 4.62
Scott Derry----------LB-- 13----- 28--------- 32------- 60------ 4.62
Roddrick Muckelroy---LB---13-----40----------19--------59------ 4.54
Lamarr Houston-------DL---13-----25--------- 20------- 45 ------3.46
Frank Okam-----------DL---13-----17---------19------- 36------- 2.77

USC's top tackling LBs and DLs:

Name----------------Pos---G----- Solo-----Assisted--- Total---- Total/G
Rey Maualuga--------LB --13----- 41--------- 38------- 79------ 6.08
Keith Rivers----------LB---12----- 43--------- 35------- 78------ 6.50
Thomas Williams------LB---13----- 37--------- 19------- 56------ 4.31
Lawrence Jackson----DL-13-----31--------- 29--------60-------4.62
Sedrick Ellis----------DL---13-----29---------29--------58-------4.46


If Okam was tying up the OL, as you propose a NT should do(and as THEORY tells us), then shouldn't we see higher numbers for all of the linebackers and DL playing with him? That's what theory tells us.

If Okam was hogging up tacklers and doing this "superstar" level job that you speak of, then why aren't the numbers higher for his fellow defenders?

On the other hand, with Ellis you have his teammates producing more tackles than the Texas LBs and DLs. How does this work?

Each team had around 900 total tackles for the year: TX 920 and USC 868. So the total number of tackles are PRETTY CLOSE! They each played 13 games. What gives?

See, this is EXACTLY why i've been saying that we cannot look at SIZE and BULK as indicators of success at the NT or DT position. In fact, Elllis played BOTH positions, NT and three-tech! If he had EXCLUSIVE played three-tech he'd have 20 more tackles!

So, theory gets thrown out the window. COMPLETELY out with the wash. If the guy is a good player he is a good player; PERIOD. Size is like a shiny paint job that only mesmerizes you without ever letting you appreciate what's UNDER THE HOOD.

My take as to why Ellis puts up higher numbers and is generally more productive is his MOTOR. All scouting reports about him say one thing: HIGH MOTOR, ALL GAME LONG.

So, even though Okam may be good in the 1-3 quarters, will he be in there producing in the 4th? All indications are that Ellis is the guy to play FOUR FULL quarters. No denying that. In fact, you've admitted as much:



Penetrating DTs, like Ellis, can generally play more snaps and make a larger individual impact. Teams seem to like that. .

Teams seem to like that LOL!!! You think?! :D

All stats aside, THE MOST important characteristic for any DL that will wear a Bronco uniform, aside from skill set, is whether he'll be huffing and puffing in a playoff game, in the 4th quarter against Payton Manning. Height, weight blah blah is just a paint job.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
01-14-2008, 08:08 PM
I think we'd need some adjustments, for sure, but to COMPLETELY RETOOL our personnel! Why? please explain. Provide details as to what changes we need to make? Thanks!


In a Cover 2 Defense, everything relies on versatility and positional control.

First, the CBs need to be strong tacklers that are very disciplined in not biting on playaction. Coverage ability is at a minimum, and therefore, most Cover 2 defenses do not spend large dollars on their CBs. Obviously, Champ Bailey would be fine in a Cover 2 skill-wise, but he makes entirely too much money for a defense which won't utilize his top notch man-to-man coverage skills. Dre Bly can't tackle and he's not disciplined. Which is why the Lions shipped him out of their Cover 2 defense to us.

Second, the LBs all have to be able to cover and possess elite speed and ball skills. The WILL LB is generally the dynamic playmaker, but it can sometimes be the SAM. All the LBs have to excel at tackling and gap control. The LBs are the face of the Cover 2 Defense. Ian Gold doesn't fit in a Cover 2 due to his tackling issues. We have no SAM on the roster capable of fitting in that defense. DJ Williams would be okay as a MIKE in a Cover 2, he is not good enough as a WILL in that type of defense.

Third, the Defensive Line has to consist of speed rushers and penetrating DTs. We obviously do not have any of the DTs, perhaps Marcus Thomas. But, we would need to bring in 2-3 penetrating DTs, which are hard to find. We do have the DEs for the Cover 2 though with Moss, Dumervil, and Crowder.

Fourth, the Safeties must be excellent in zone coverage and generally must be quality at blitzing. Lynch is obviously a great fit but is retiring soon. Abdullah probably is a good fit too. However, Foxworth is not, and we would need 2 more safeties who fit the scheme.


So, lots would need to be done. Really, only MLB, DE, and SS is likely complete.





MUG, i like your persistence! You shoud appreciate Ellis because he too plays with persistence and intensity. He's your guy! LOL!

I like Sedrick Ellis. I think he's the best DT in this draft. As I stated here:

http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showpost.php?p=2050765&postcount=5




EXACTLY my point! :) But I am NOT seeing that. At least not on paper. And coaches and GMs' are NOT going to view film of every single down that every DT in the draft played because that would mean HUNDREDS of hours of viewing, dozens of players. Maybe for quarterbacks, but not for DLs. They will look at production stats as we're doing as well as film. And the stas tells something very interesting abotu Okam and Ellis.

So, you don't like the fact that Ellis made his DBs better tacklers? :D OK, let's look at the linebackers and DL on each squad:

Texas top tackling LBs and DLs:

Name---------------Pos---G----- Solo-----Assisted--- Total---- Total/G
Rashad Bobino-------LB---13----- 36--------- 24------- 60------ 4.62
Scott Derry----------LB-- 13----- 28--------- 32------- 60------ 4.62
Roddrick Muckelroy---LB---13-----40----------19--------59------ 4.54
Lamarr Houston-------DL---13-----25--------- 20------- 45 ------3.46
Frank Okam-----------DL---13-----17---------19------- 36------- 2.77

USC's top tackling LBs and DLs:

Name----------------Pos---G----- Solo-----Assisted--- Total---- Total/G
Rey Maualuga--------LB --13----- 41--------- 38------- 79------ 6.08
Keith Rivers----------LB---12----- 43--------- 35------- 78------ 6.50
Thomas Williams------LB---13----- 37--------- 19------- 56------ 4.31
Lawrence Jackson----DL-13-----31--------- 29--------60-------4.62
Sedrick Ellis----------DL---13-----29---------29--------58-------4.46


If Okam was tying up the OL, as you propose a NT should do(and as THEORY tells us), then shouldn't we see higher numbers for all of the linebackers and DL playing with him? That's what theory tells us.

If Okam was hogging up tacklers and doing this "superstar" level job that you speak of, then why aren't the numbers higher for his fellow defenders?

On the other hand, with Ellis you have his teammates producing more tackles than the Texas LBs and DLs. How does this work?

Each team had around 900 total tackles for the year: TX 920 and USC 868. So the total number of tackles are PRETTY CLOSE! They each played 13 games. What gives?

See, this is EXACTLY why i've been saying that we cannot look at SIZE and BULK as indicators of success at the NT or DT position. In fact, Elllis played BOTH positions, NT and three-tech! If he had EXCLUSIVE played three-tech he'd have 20 more tackles!

So, theory gets thrown out the window. COMPLETELY out with the wash. If the guy is a good player he is a good player; PERIOD. Size is like a shiny paint job that only mesmerizes you without ever letting you appreciate what's UNDER THE HOOD.

My take as to why Ellis puts up higher numbers and is generally more productive is his MOTOR. All scouting reports about him say one thing: HIGH MOTOR, ALL GAME LONG.

So, even though Okam may be good in the 1-3 quarters, will he be in there producing in the 4th? All indications are that Ellis is the guy to play FOUR FULL quarters. No denying that. In fact, you've admitted as much:



Well, first, you have Okam's stats wrong:


SENIOR (2007)
Started all 12 games … a member of the Bednarik Award, Lombardi Award and Outland Trophy watch lists … tabbed first-team All-Big 12 by the Fort Worth Star-Telegram and second-team All-Big 12 by The Associated Press and the league’s coaches … voted a captain by his teammates … earned one of the Dr. Nasser Al-Rashid Strength & Conditioning Awards and was named one of UT’s Outstanding Defensive Linemen … a first-team Academic All-Big 12 selection … helped UT allow just 99.3 rushing yards per game (10th NCAA) … tallied 49 tackles, 10 TFL, a team-high five sacks, 16 pressures, four PBD, a forced fumble and a fumble recovery.

http://www.mackbrown-texasfootball.com/index.php?s=url_channel_id=15&change_well_id=17&member_id=64


Second, you're confusing playstyle with size. I agree that size does not define the player. Playstyle does though. Sedrick Ellis is not a True Nose Tackle in the NFL. He is a hustling penetrating DT. He was double teamed all of once in the first half of his bowl game. Frank Okam is a pure Nose Tackle, he's not a penetrator whatsoever, though he can collapse the pocket due to strength. *I* place great value on a clogger as I subscribe to the Jaguars/Ravens (and 3-4 teams) philosophy of D-line play. Most teams place greater value on the penetrating DT that creates havoc. That's fine. Okam is more appealing to certain teams and Ellis is likewise to others. With Bates gone, obviously Ellis would be more appealing to us now.


Third, you're comparison analysis is going to be inherently flawed. You need to figure out how many running plays v. passing plays were run against each team to see if that total was equal or not. And then you also have the player factor. USC is basically an NFL calibur team. Texas is not. The sheer talent level surrounding Ellis is immensely better then the talent surrounding Okam. I appreciate your hard work, but it's truly impossible to come up with a valid comparison without knowing every minute detail about both defenses, play snaps, and opposing play calls.

jrfernan
01-14-2008, 10:02 PM
I appreciate your hard work, but it's truly impossible to come up with a valid comparison without knowing every minute detail about both defenses, play snaps, and opposing play calls.

I completely agree! Unless we know how many plays each man was in for and the type of play(ie run, pass, bootleg, option etc) we really can't count tackles as true indicators. I thought those stats were interesting.

I think you and I agree on ONE thing, and IMO it's THE MOST important thing: Ellis can flat out play and he gives 100% all game long. That, MUG, cannot be overlooked. That will more than make up for any size deficiency. In fact, not having IDEAL size is the ONLY knock on Ellis and I can't see it being enough to overlook him.

Thanks for the details of the Cover-2. But do you really think we need to move to that scheme in order to accomodate an Ellis? Man, that would seem like a HUGE overhaul to have to do to have one guy be useful. I don't think we need to do that. Maybe I'm unrealistically hopeful about MThomas stepping up and playing big at NT. I still don't agree that MASS is the bottom line indicator of an NT's worth. There are SO MANY other factors, including lower body strength, leverage, technique on shedding double teams, etc. Have we given up on Marcus at NT? I hope not.

But something you said really alarms me: If we don't get Okam we can get "quasi-NTs" in lower rounds. WOW! See, that's where I draw the line. We don't need "quasis" of any type. It's that "settling for lesser talent" attitude that is killing us to begin with. I KNOW you will agree that between Dorsey and Ellis and the rest there is a big talent gap. Beyond Okam we might as well keep what we have. I really mean that.

For crying out loud, we have ONE Pro Bowler and even he's not played well. Champ should NOT have gone to the Pro Bowl this year. It was out of respect he got picked; and that's OK, i suppose. But we need at least ONE TOP player this draft. We got our QB last year, let's get a HIGH IMPACT player this year. ON DEFENSE!

jrfernan
01-14-2008, 10:52 PM
MUG, sorry, but something's wrong with your analysis of the Tampa-Cover-2. You say the following:


"To pair with Marcus Thomas"? No.

The last thing I want to see is Marcus Thomas utilized solely as our Nose Tackle. As discussed in numerous other threads, Ellis, while possibly the best DT in this draft (I think so), is likely to only live up to a Top 10 billing if he's allowed to play in a true Tampa-2 type scheme that uses a True Nose Tackle, and a 3-technique (Ellis).

Marcus Thomas is best used as a quasi-nose in the Under Tackle position. Paired with a true Nose, Thomas can either rush or dig in and clog multiple inside gaps. That versatility is very valuable. Ellis, meanwhile, can penetrate better than Thomas, but Ellis has to play in a one gap scheme, every game, every play. He's never going to be able to anchor against two gaps in the NFL. And Marcus Thomas can really only do so every now and then, he can't play an entire game as a clogger efficiently. Thomas needs to get much stronger and more stout, as well as learn to master leverage techniques. Right now, Thomas' strength is more in his penetrating, which would be lost as a primary Nose Tackle.

You say that Tampa has a TRUE NT. Who is he? When I look at Tampa Bay's roster I see no TRUE NT. I see Ryan Sims at 6-4 315 lbs. That's HARDLY the 6'6" 330-50 lbs NT everyone craves and what THEORY tells us an NT should be. The so-called prototypical NT. And he's their HEAVIEST DT! He's not heavier than Marcus and only an inch taller. Is that SIGNIFICANT? Are we down to evaluating DTs by ONE INCH difference? C'mon! It's ridiculous.

You wil say: "Size has nothing to do with being a successful NT" but that is COMPLETELY UNTRUE and contradictory to everything that's been said about Okam up 'til now. NT is all about size and bulk. What you're touting Okam for is his SIZE, BULK and ability to take on multiple tacklers and clog up the middle of the line. That has VERY LITTLE to do with technique and athleticism and everything to do with SIZE.

So, where is the size/bulk on Tampa's line? Where is the size/bulk on Indy's line? Indy doesn't have ONE guy over 300 lbs on their D line! Yet, they have a TRUE NT? Who!? Marcus is bigger than ANY of their DTs! Indy does NOT have a TRUE NT. And you said that a successful Cover-2 needs a TRUE NT.

So, where is the TRUE NT? Tampa doesn't have one! So, your theory about Ellis ONLY succeeding with a TB style Cover-2 because they have a TRUE NT is, well, wrong. Sorry, but you're wrong on that one.

----------------------------------------------------------------

So, let's start from scratch. Because everything that's been said up to now has gone up in smoke. Why don't we forget my silly stats comparison and I'll forget your comments about TB having a TRUE NT and we can call it a draw. OK!?

--------------------------------------------------------------------

That being said, I think you need to rethink your asessment of Marcus Thomas not being able to play NT in the NFL. I understand Tampa's D enough to know that it works MUCH better than ours and they don't have a TRUE NT. I cannot imagine for ONE second that Marcus cannot be successful, under the right coaching guidance, to make an impact at NT.

This thing about Marcus getting blown away on two gap is a GUESS, at best. Why do you say that? Are similar sized DTs getting BLOWN AWAY at the line of scrimmage? Again, does the Tampa NT get BLOWN AWAY? Does the Indy NT get BLOWN AWAY?

You will say: "Oh, but those aren't TRUE NTs they are each one gap DTs"
AH! Yes, that is MY POINT! Neither TB or Indy have a TRUE NT! It's not needed in PRACTICE if your guys are talented enough to get it done!

Basically, the success that TB and Indy have had has disproven the theory that D lines MUST have a TRUE NT. That theory goes out the window. Indy won last year, and arguably you can say Paytone was the reason, and yes, he'll ALWAYS be the reason, but their D was MAGNIFICENT. And without a TRUE NT.

jrfernan
01-14-2008, 10:59 PM
Check this out about Kelly Gregg. It solidifies my point to a fault!

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-123412589.html

<start of quote>

Nose tackles come in all shapes and sizes. They can be as big as Ted Washington (6-5, 365) or as small as the Ravens' Kelly Gregg (5-11, 310).

If you went shopping for the ideal nose man, you'd leave Gregg on the shelf. Not only does he lack size, he has short arms. When the Ravens signed Gregg to their practice squad in 2000 (originally he was a sixth-round draft pick by the Bengals in 1999), defensive tackle Tony Siragusa nicknamed him "Buddy Lee."

Ravens coach Brian Billick was skeptical about Gregg until he saw him perform in a 9-on-7 practice drill. Suddenly, Billick's attitude changed. "Hey, this guy is going to be pretty good," he thought.

Billick wasn't the only Ravens coach who was impressed. After Gregg was added to the Ravens' roster in 2001, running backs coach Matt Simon wanted to make him a fullback and offensive line coach Jim Colletto wanted to make him a guard. Ryan, who had coached Gregg in college at Oklahoma, said balderdash, or something to that effect--he's a defensive lineman.

Like most 3-4 nose tackles, Gregg is a two-gap lineman. Unlike most, he's a playmaker. In 2002 and '03, his first two seasons as a full-time starter, he averaged almost 70 tackles and totaled five sacks. During the Ravens' Monday night loss to Kansas City in Week 4, Gregg made six tackles and frequently was in Kansas City's backfield.

"He sheds quick and makes a lot of tackles;' says Ryan. "He plays with as good a technique as anyone in the league, I think. It's almost flawless."

Gregg has built-in leverage because he's short. And his background in wrestling--he was a three-time heavyweight state champion at Edmond (Okla.) High--is a plus when it comes to grappling with offensive linemen.

"He'll never go to a Pro Bowl because he doesn't look the part," says Ryan. "He's undersized. He's always pulling his pants up. But when that ball is snapped, he can play."

<End of quote>

Is there any doubt that Marcus Thomas can start at NT for the Denver Broncos? At 6'3" and probably bulking up to 325 lbs by next spring the guy is BUILT for the role. Let's give him a chance!

jrfernan
01-14-2008, 11:54 PM
More quotes about nose tackles from http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-123412589.html:

<start of quote>

An AFC pro personnel director rates the league's top 3-4 nose tackles. The same pro personnel director ranks the 4-3 tackles who also could play the nose in a 3-4:

1 Anthony McFarland, Buccaneers. "Has an excellent combination of strength and athletic ability. Is a two-dimensional tackle who can stay in and take on double-teams but also shows excellent quickness and speed to make plays out near the numbers. Nobody talks much about it, but he was big part of Warren Sapp being the player he was in Tampa Bay."

<end of quote>

McFarland was the NT when Sapp was the UT/DT, right? We can all agree on that. History proves that and history also proves that they had ONE OF THE NASTIEST defenses in the history of the NFL.

What the measuring tape and weight scale show is that McFarland is and was 6'0" 300 lbs! AGAIN, SIX FOR ZERO INCHES, THREE HUNDRED POUNDS. And he was the NT of that Super Bowl winning outfit.

You mean to tell me that or Marcus Thomas, at 6'3" 315+ lbs CANNOT play nose in the NFL????!!!!!

With the UTMOST respect I say that you are way too hung up on size, bulk, weight and theory of what a NT SHOULD LOOK LIKE.

I can keep listing examples of GREAT NTs who weren't much larger than 310 lbs. But I don't think I need to. I've made my point. :D

Mat'hir Uth Gan
01-15-2008, 05:18 AM
Couple of things....


1) I'm not sure why I put down True Nose Tackle for a Cover 2 scheme. No excuses, that just doesn't make sense. I think I was hung up on the fact that at the *time* Jim Bates was still expected to be our DC, so I was trying to stress the point that Thomas could not handle two gap responsibilities as a Nose in that scheme because of his personal *playstyle* and *abilities*.


2) Thomas can't play Nose in that type of scheme because of his playstyle, not his size. He can play nose in a Tampa 2 front...possibly. We don't really know if he's any good whatsoever yet as well.


3) I've always been a fan of Kelly Gregg since the BlackRazor arguments in 2005. But he did fail as a 3-4 NT. The team went out and drafted Haloti Ngata to play that position and then switched to a 4-3 front. He's a great hustle player though and a prime example of what you're trying to sell with Sedrick Ellis. Mike Patterson would be an even better example.


4) You're still too confused on what I am saying with 99% of my posts. Size does not matter. Technique and playstyle does. Why do you think Gerrard Warren, whom is huge, has never excelled as a NT type? Because he doesn't play the clogging style, his game is all about penetration. Sedrick Ellis does not play the clogging style, his game is all about penetration. Frank Okam's game is all about clogging. Marcus Thomas' game is a mixture of both, master of none. He's a NT in a Tampa 2 front and an Under Tackle/DE in a 2-Nose/3-4 front. Ken Dorsey, Pat Sims, Kentwan Balmer, and Marcus Harrison are all similar players in terms of playstyle.


5) I'm still not sure what your point is. I agree that Sedrick Ellis is the best DT in this draft. I agree that he probably fits our new scheme better then any other draft possibility. I agree that he will be a great Pro. And I agree that if he's available, we will draft him. He will NOT be available though. And we likely will not trade up to the #7 slot.

The only opinion I've posted which is different then anything you've said, at least as I can figure, is that I would prefer the giant, clogging DTs if I were designing a defensive scheme. But, that's an opinion, and nobody can argue with those.

BroncoKazuki
01-15-2008, 05:20 AM
I was reading about Sedrick Ellis

and i found some tidbits that were casually left out of this convo.

Sedrick Ellis: Height 6-1 wt 285 40 time 4.95

Strenghts: very quick with a great first step...very strong and powerful... a terrific pass rusher with a bust to close...athletic with good speed... instinctive...shreds blocks well and is able to beat the double team... is technically sound when it comes to using his hands and understanding leverage... has a non-stop motor...tough and very hard worker with a top-notch intangibles..has experience at both tackle positions.


Weaknesses: Doesnt have the ideal height or bulk that you look for... has some minor durablity issues...might have some trouble holding his ground at the point of attack against massive blockers...imited schematically and probably wont be a perfict fit for every team.

notes: could be a prototypical three-technique at the pro level... redshirited in 2003 after breaking his left ankle and missed some time in 2006 with a knee injury... productive disruptive and forced in the middle.. a better prospect that Mike Batterson was in 2005.



Now those bold Colored are what have me worried.

1, can he fit Denver's defensive system
2, its it worth cap wise to have him only play situational since he's more of a situational type player then an every down player (every down is something we need)
3, his durablity, will he have more injuries, will that knee get re-injured.
4, will he adjust well in the NFL


his Strengths are good but his weaknesses are something that make me really question if he's the fit for our Denver Defense

jrfernan
01-15-2008, 08:50 AM
I was reading about Sedrick Ellis

and i found some tidbits that were casually left out of this convo.

Sedrick Ellis: Height 6-1 wt 285 40 time 4.95

Strenghts: very quick with a great first step...very strong and powerful... a terrific pass rusher with a bust to close...athletic with good speed... instinctive...shreds blocks well and is able to beat the double team... is technically sound when it comes to using his hands and understanding leverage... has a non-stop motor...tough and very hard worker with a top-notch intangibles..has experience at both tackle positions.


Weaknesses: Doesnt have the ideal height or bulk that you look for... has some minor durablity issues...might have some trouble holding his ground at the point of attack against massive blockers...imited schematically and probably wont be a perfict fit for every team.

notes: could be a prototypical three-technique at the pro level... redshirited in 2003 after breaking his left ankle and missed some time in 2006 with a knee injury... productive disruptive and forced in the middle.. a better prospect that Mike Batterson was in 2005.



Now those bold Colored are what have me worried.

1, can he fit Denver's defensive system
2, its it worth cap wise to have him only play situational since he's more of a situational type player then an every down player (every down is something we need)
3, his durablity, will he have more injuries, will that knee get re-injured.
4, will he adjust well in the NFL


his Strengths are good but his weaknesses are something that make me really question if he's the fit for our Denver Defense


Sedrick Ellis:

Strength: "has a non-stop motor...tough and very hard worker with a top-notch intangibles"

Weakness: "durability issues"

The durability is only questioned because of some injuries he's had. That COULD be a factor; sure. But that will be addressed by team physicals. Team doctors will know if the guy has a propensity to get injured or if he just had those one or two injuries. A broken ankle! C'mon! That can happen to anyone.

I like NFLDraftCountdown, and I'm glad you're quoting from them. Over the past few years their simplicity and dead-on ranking of players has been a welcomed site.

Let's wait until NFLDraftCountdown shows Okam's weaknesses. Most likely: fades out in 4th quarter. Doesn't always play ever down. Has motor issues, etc. Issue related to LACK OF INTENSITY.

All that aside, if we won't trade up for Elllis we know he won't be around in the 12th. The next issue is whether Okam warrants 1st round pick at 12. If we don't grab him there will he be around in the second? Doubtful.

We're still a few months away from the combine and stock could rise for one or fall for the other, or rise for both! Or, fall for both! LOL! Then what? For all we know Ellis may get in there and show people he is NOT as strong as first thought; or as quick or agile. He may only measure 5'11" and weigh 265 lbs. Then what?

On the other hand Okam may blow Ellis' doors off in the 40 and bench press 225 50 times!

We can all be surprised!:cheers:

BroncoKazuki
01-15-2008, 04:16 PM
Sedrick Ellis:

Strength: "has a non-stop motor...tough and very hard worker with a top-notch intangibles"

Weakness: "durability issues"

The durability is only questioned because of some injuries he's had. That COULD be a factor; sure. But that will be addressed by team physicals. Team doctors will know if the guy has a propensity to get injured or if he just had those one or two injuries. A broken ankle! C'mon! That can happen to anyone.

I like NFLDraftCountdown, and I'm glad you're quoting from them. Over the past few years their simplicity and dead-on ranking of players has been a welcomed site.

Let's wait until NFLDraftCountdown shows Okam's weaknesses. Most likely: fades out in 4th quarter. Doesn't always play ever down. Has motor issues, etc. Issue related to LACK OF INTENSITY.

All that aside, if we won't trade up for Elllis we know he won't be around in the 12th. The next issue is whether Okam warrants 1st round pick at 12. If we don't grab him there will he be around in the second? Doubtful.

We're still a few months away from the combine and stock could rise for one or fall for the other, or rise for both! Or, fall for both! LOL! Then what? For all we know Ellis may get in there and show people he is NOT as strong as first thought; or as quick or agile. He may only measure 5'11" and weigh 265 lbs. Then what?

On the other hand Okam may blow Ellis' doors off in the 40 and bench press 225 50 times!

We can all be surprised!:cheers:

Wow!

Now I thought I was a blind one but out of what I posted the only thing you say thats a 'flag' warning is the Durability issue.

Thats added upon what I think is a major question mark on why we should get him.

Durability is one. Granted team doctors will look him over and he's young enough that the ankle wont really bother him, but the knee I'm worried about, was it a minor injury or major injury.

might have some trouble holding his ground at the point of attack against massive blockers - is another thing im worried about, whats happens when he faces someone stronger, veteran linemen, will we see him being knocked down on his rear? thats something Im worried about.

Limited schematically and probably wont be a perfict fit for every team. - This to any real Draft Think or someone who considers himself a fan of a team and sport has to really worry about this player.

Denver is missing a every down DT and if we draft Ellis we'll be back to square one. Okam has upside (remember im not championing him) he can be trained into an every down DT.

With the change at DC getting Ellis or promoting him is by far a reach on our part. Yes he looks good for a situational player, but Okam looks better as a every down DT who can do pass/run plus still be out on the field for 4-8 downs.

Max Power
01-15-2008, 04:23 PM
Wow!

Now I thought I was a blind one but out of what I posted the only thing you say thats a 'flag' warning is the Durability issue.

Thats added upon what I think is a major question mark on why we should get him.

Durability is one. Granted team doctors will look him over and he's young enough that the ankle wont really bother him, but the knee I'm worried about, was it a minor injury or major injury.

might have some trouble holding his ground at the point of attack against massive blockers - is another thing im worried about, whats happens when he faces someone stronger, veteran linemen, will we see him being knocked down on his rear? thats something Im worried about.

Limited schematically and probably wont be a perfict fit for every team. - This to any real Draft Think or someone who considers himself a fan of a team and sport has to really worry about this player.

Denver is missing a every down DT and if we draft Ellis we'll be back to square one. Okam has upside (remember im not championing him) he can be trained into an every down DT.

With the change at DC getting Ellis or promoting him is by far a reach on our part. Yes he looks good for a situational player, but Okam looks better as a every down DT who can do pass/run plus still be out on the field for 4-8 downs.

Ellis is far from just a "situational player". I'm an SC fan, and he's in there on defense at least 90% of the time. He has great stamina and endurance and rarely needs to be taken out due to fatigue. He was too important to our defense to not be on the field for extended periods of time.

BroncoKazuki
01-15-2008, 04:46 PM
Ellis is far from just a "situational player". I'm an SC fan, and he's in there on defense at least 90% of the time. He has great stamina and endurance and rarely needs to be taken out due to fatigue. He was too important to our defense to not be on the field for extended periods of time.

stop being a SC fan then, i think its really covering your objectivity. 90% on the field... is that a fact or just something you saying to make Ellis look better.


Im not trying to put the kid down but look at it this way.

Denver Defense (who's the Defensive Coord?) we all believe that Slowik will be our DC so whats his game plan? Philosophy ect. ect... Get where im going? Good!

Ok now before all this talk, we all go for Ellis or Okam not fully understanding who's gonna be the DC and whats his philosophy with the D-line. Press? Slash? Push? Blitz?

Once we know this then we look at the players on the Draft who fit this type of scheme.

Ellis = situational (will he be the best fit or only good for 50% of the downs) Now inclined is it worth it paying top dollars for a 50% down player (we got one in Elivs already)

Okam = 2nd round probably. will he also fit

now these are all questions that must be answered. If we spend the draft on Ellis and he bust on our Bronco Line and succeeds somewhere else. We would be wasting a draft pick if you know what i mean.

jrfernan
01-15-2008, 05:38 PM
Wow!

Durability is one. Granted team doctors will look him over and he's young enough that the ankle wont really bother him, but the knee I'm worried about, was it a minor injury or major injury.

might have some trouble holding his ground at the point of attack against massive blockers - is another thing im worried about, whats happens when he faces someone stronger, veteran linemen, will we see him being knocked down on his rear? thats something Im worried about.

Players get hurt. PERIOD. It's football.

The thing we have to look for in scouting reports are contradictions; and they are everywhere on MOST reports and with MOST players. Even the elite ones have weaknesses that make you scratch your head.

I read stuff like: "non-stop motor", "tremendous work ethic", "plays hard, all game long", "Tough and a very hard worker with top-notch intangibles" etc. Then, I see the man play, that's EXACTLY what he does: plays HARD ALL GAME LONG! The guy has an Allen Iverson motor.

Then there's a "MINOR durability" concern! LOL! What the! If there's a durability concern, would he have played 13 games at THE HIGHEST LEVEL POSSIBLE?! At ALL OUT speed and wreckless abandon? Ellis is 100% all game long. How is he a DURABILITY concern? Cmon, get real. You're reaching but don't have the arm length.

All scouting reports say the SAME thing about Ellis: "Very strong and powerful", "Sheds blocks well and is able to beat the double team". But later on we read a negative that says: "Might have some trouble holding his ground at the point against massive blockers."

So, he sheds blocks well and is able to beat DOUBLE TEAMS(which in my math book adds up to about 600+ lbs of flesh and bones), but he MIGHT have trouble against a MASSIVE blocker?! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

C'mon! If that doesn't make you laugh, then you have no sense of humor and cannot see the contradiction and the irony in all of it.

He plays non-stop, all game long, for 13 games, is a first team all-american for the SECOND year in the row and he has a MINOR durability concern. He also sheds DOUBLE TEAMS real well, but MIGHT get engulfed by MASSIVE blockers. LOL!!!!!!! I can't stop laughing!

So, I imagine that someone on, uh, i dunno, the Bill, let's say, will have a 600 lbs OT next year. Actually, he'll have to be close to 700 lbs in order to exceed a double team.

Gimme a break! You're just reaching and reaching and reaching with no basis.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
01-15-2008, 05:50 PM
Just a heads up...

Splitting a double team is about quickness and technique, it has little to do with strength and leverage.

Fighting through a talented blocker that outweighs you by 60lbs is about strength and leverage.


Personally I think Ellis is fine. He's been compared by USC coaches as a better version of Mike Patterson, and Patterson, due to his wrestling background, was a master of technique and leverage. He's also a Pro Bowl calibur DT. So, if that's true, Ellis should be great.

BroncoKazuki
01-15-2008, 05:50 PM
Granted Football is Football and players are bound to get hurt.

Some players are more susceptible then others you also know that. Ever heard of the term "accident prone" being used.


Also splitting double teams is all about how fast you can bypass and shift around (all about footwork). If you ever played football, then you know fighting off a Linemen is a Daunting Task if you don't set yourself up correctly. Get the right leverage or even set your feet right.

a contest of strength is one thing but if you face a smarter linemen, you know some of Newton Laws of Motion right. So thats one thing, then feet set up and ect.

I can go over the neuances of how a O-lineman can set up and DT can set up. I played both sides of the ball in HS before I got hurt so I know how to beat a DT and thats use their own weight against them when they shift towards your chest. When facing an O-linemen its best to hit them at a angle because you knocked them off their center of balance.

so we can talk tons about this but the question still lies what happens when Ellis meets his equals. Look at it from this vantage point. a NFL vet O-linemen vs Ellis granted College he was able to do his strengths (shed blocks bypass double teams ect) When facing a Vet O-line men can he hold his own before that Linemen beats him in a test of strength.


We gotta wait and see dont we.:coffee:

jrfernan
01-16-2008, 12:11 AM
When facing a Vet O-line men can he hold his own before that Linemen beats him in a test of strength.
We gotta wait and see dont we.:coffee:

And that's EXACTLY it, we don't know. And that "we" includes Shanahan and any and ALL coaches in the NFL. Because NO ONE really knows how ANYONE will turn out. Including Dorsey and McFadden.

However, we have to think positively about top prospects. Unless a prospect has a GLARING problem, ie. a major recurring injury or some disciplinary issues etc, then why not take a chance?

But to assume he will fail against NFL linemen is pure speculation and there isn't ONE SINGLE FACT that can ensure that he will fail. In fact, any draft report that talks about Ellis not being able to handle NFL O linemen does so in a speculative fashion, using words like: "perhaps", "maybe", "could", "if" etc. Why? Because NO ONE REALLY KNOWS until they see him play against top NFL talent.

His size(or lack of) ensures us he'll fail? IMPOSSIBLE, because there are LOTS of men his size and smaller who've been to multiple Pro Bowls as DTs and NTs. His college competition only tells us he faced potential NFL lineman during some of the games; as did Dorsey, Okam, Warren Sapp, Reggie White, Bruce Smit, Julius Peppers et al.

The draft is nothing BUT taking chances on players.

BroncoKazuki
01-16-2008, 12:31 AM
And that's EXACTLY it, we don't know. And that "we" includes Shanahan and any and ALL coaches in the NFL. Because NO ONE really knows how ANYONE will turn out. Including Dorsey and McFadden.

However, we have to think positively about top prospects. Unless a prospect has a GLARING problem, ie. a major recurring injury or some disciplinary issues etc, then why not take a chance?

The draft is nothing BUT taking chances on players.


simple cus its easier to draft RB S CB LB WR and see the impact of those players far faster then a DT OG OT C and DE.

now granted the thing that comes down to it all is just this

our Denver Defensive Coaching on the D-line and LB corps.

I said it before in another spot. Take the Player out of the a National college (pac 10, Big 10 Big 12 SEC SCC ect) and put him in a NFL team.

That said player will go through evaluations of the Defensive Line Coach and the Defense Coordinator. As to a how to use that player. Now Granted when drafting high it also comes with the reasoning of, not teaching that player a lot because its a given he knows how to use technique, footwork, leverage. The Basics in other words. You only teach him the scheme and play book. You expect that number 1 draft pick to perform well.

Defensive line (epically tackles) players take time to mature probably at the same rate of a Quarterback depending on how fast they can absorb the playbook as well their study skills to absorb said play book.


With that said I think Ellis would be a good pick but... we could get away getting a 4th round DT and he could be even so adequate of a DT as well. It comes down to Coaching. Either way I think I rather spend it on a Safety or RB just because the impact can be seen far faster then a DT who needs time to mature.


on a side note theres no such thing as.. NFL ready... case in point Look at Matt Leinart of the Cardinals. :coffee:

jrfernan
01-16-2008, 12:48 AM
With that said I think Ellis would be a good pick but... we could get away getting a 4th round DT and he could be even so adequate of a DT as well. It comes down to Coaching. Either way I think I rather spend it on a Safety or RB just because the impact can be seen far faster then a DT who needs time to mature.

on a side note theres no such thing as.. NFL ready... case in point Look at Matt Leinart of the Cardinals. :coffee:

You say some things that are correct and others that are questionable.

First of all, why will a RB and S make a faster impact than a DT? Says who? Did Mike Patterson make an impact as a rookie? Did Marcus Stroud make an impact as a rookie? Did Hamza Abdullah make an impact as a rookie? Did Roderick Rogers make an impact as a rookie?

Was Patrick Willis NFL ready? You said there is NO SUCH thing as NFL ready. How about Patrick?

Think before you make a statement like that. Instead you could say: TYPICALLY, most players are NOT NFL ready. That's a more reasonable statement.

You paint with a brush the size of a bus with some of your statements.

BroncoKazuki
01-16-2008, 12:59 AM
You say some things that are correct and others that are questionable.

First of all, why will a RB and S make a faster impact than a DT? Says who? Did Mike Patterson make an impact as a rookie? Did Marcus Stroud make an impact as a rookie? Did Hamza Abdullah make an impact as a rookie? Did Roderick Rogers make an impact as a rookie?

Was Patrick Willis NFL ready? You said there is NO SUCH thing as NFL ready. How about Patrick?

Think before you make a statement like that. Instead you could say: TYPICALLY, most players are NOT NFL ready. That's a more reasonable statement.

You paint with a brush the size of a bus with some of your statements.

Theres always exceptions but the general concept is there.

Maybe I should have said. Theres no Such thing as NFL ready but theres always exceptions to the rule.


Witch means most are by few and far.

Thats all I'm pointing out.

Also Offensive side of the ball (depending on the team) can make a huge impact. needless to say not in the whole NFL but within the team itself.

But as weird as anything, you have one view point and I have mine.

If you touch the nose of an elephant and I touch the ear of an elephant and we both say Elephant. It it Must be an elephant.

What we can both agree on is that we need a sudden infusion either it be an impact player or a payer that is sound in the fundamentals on either side of the ball.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
01-16-2008, 05:35 AM
What happens if you touch the privates of the elephant?

jrfernan
01-16-2008, 10:01 AM
Holy Shazam, Batman!!!! What the?!!!

MUG, BroncoKazuki, check THIS OUT....

I go to NFLDraftCountdown with the goal of looking at some of the stats and reports for RBs and I find that Okam has dropped in the depth chart to SIX. From THREE TO SIXTH on the list. It could be a mistake. I'm HOPING it is. Or just a pre-draft sorting problem for their site admin.

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/rankings/dt.html

# Name College Height Weight 40-Time
1. Glenn Dorsey L.S.U. 6-2 299 5.05
2. Sedrick Ellis USC 6-1 285 4.95
3. Kentwan Balmer North Carolina 6-5 295 5.05
4. Marcus Harrison Arkansas 6-3 310 5.00
5. Pat Sims Auburn 6-4 314 5.05
6. Frank Okam Texas 6-5 320 5.10 <------------ ***** ?????????
7. Red Bryant Texas A&M 6-5 324 5.15
8. Dre Moore Maryland 6-4 311 4.90
9. DeMario Pressley North Carolina St. 6-3 295 5.00
10. Trevor Laws Notre Dame 6-1 295 5.00

I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND that it's REAL EARLY. For all we now, Ellis may drop in the charts!
BUT, you can't blame me for raising an eyebrow!

jrfernan
01-16-2008, 10:17 AM
Uh, oh!!!!!

Okam seems to be dropping like a lead balloon. Here's him dropping to SIXTH on Walter's chart......

http://walterfootball.com/draft2008DT.php

I retract what I said about this being a site admin error at NFLDraftCountdown. He's dropping for REAL!

What's going on guys?!

Mat'hir Uth Gan
01-16-2008, 10:27 AM
Uh, oh!!!!!

Okam seems to be dropping like a lead balloon. Here's him dropping to SIXTH on Walter's chart......

http://walterfootball.com/draft2008DT.php

I retract what I said about this being a site admin error at NFLDraftCountdown. He's dropping for REAL!

What's going on guys?!


Relax.

Okam is not dropping, he is rising. He was projected as a 3rd round selection. I'm the one that says he'll be a 1st rounder by the time the draft comes around. Odds are he'll be a 2nd, but I like what I see from him to make him a 1st round pick.

As for Waltersfootball, that page has not been updated. The Jan 8th update was a profile statement for Kentwan Balmer.

stnzed
01-16-2008, 06:23 PM
The draft is FOUR months away!!!!!! Let's see where Okam is in April.

As for Sedrick Ellis, I'm just having a hard time understanding how a 285LB DT could be considered with the 12th pick? Please 'splain that one to me, his lack of size alone should drop him.

The thought of Ellis and Dumervil on the same starting D-line just doesn't make sense, you need to protect Dumervil. Now if Ellis WAS just a situational player, that would make more sense......Just not at 12!

C'mon, Al Davis, waste just one more draft pick......

jrfernan
01-17-2008, 11:18 AM
As for Sedrick Ellis, I'm just having a hard time understanding how a 285LB DT could be considered with the 12th pick?

You've answered your own question: "I'm just having a hard time understanding"

Astrass
01-17-2008, 11:27 AM
Thought Ellis was @ 305+ LBS. Anyways.....Ellis can play the run and get to the QB. Like many reports said, he has unusual strength and he can almost fully control double teams. Granted that was college....so who knows what would happen in the NFL.

jrfernan
01-17-2008, 11:37 AM
Thought Ellis was @ 305+ LBS. Anyways.....Ellis can play the run and get to the QB. Like many reports said, he has unusual strength and he can almost fully control double teams. Granted that was college....so who knows what would happen in the NFL.

That's the way to see it! You're correct.

Why ASSUME that someone who SUCCEEDED at THE HIGHEST LEVEL in college, playing against top conpetition and winning awards, landing as a FIRST team all-american TWICE in back to back years, will FAIL in the NFL? Why would one even ASSUME that?

One thing is to be NERVOUS while hoping he succeeds at the NFL. Hoping he's not a bust. That's OK, because there's plenty of precendence to make us be CONCERNED.

But concern about Ellis is not what I'm hearing from some of you, but GURANTEES that he'll fail.........BECAUSE OF HIS SIZE!!! Absurd!

jrfernan
01-17-2008, 12:33 PM
To me it's a very simple process. This is the conversation between my son and I when trying to explain to him how the NFL draft works...

son: "Dad, how does the NFL draft work? How do teams KNOW what players to choose?"

dad:"Good question!......The NFL consists MOSTLY(99%) of ex-college players. Given that BASIC FACT, son, where do you think NFL teams go to when looking for players?"

son: "hmmm......COLLEGES?!"

dad: "bingo, son!"
dad: "So, if you were looking for the best players how would you find them?"

son: "hmmm.......hmmmm........I think you would FIRST look at the ones who played the best."

dad: "right!......but, how would YOU KNOW who played the best?"

son: "hmmm.....well, you'd look at the games they played!"

dad: "correct, son! and that's called "viewing film" in the NFL and coaches do EXACTLY that."
dad: "What else would help you decide who's a good player?"

son: "hmm......those who make the all-star games.......like in baseball!"

dad: "Excellent! Yes, all-star games. That's a good way. But, there really aren't any good all-star games in college and sometimes good players don't want to play in those so they won't get hurt, so the newspaper writers, coaches and players choose their all-stars and put them on certain lists. One such list is the AP All-American list. This list ranks them by first, second, third team etc....."

son: "Oh! Like starters in the baseball all-star game -vs- those who sit on the bench when the game starts!"

dad: "Yes! Like that, son. Just like that!"

dad: "So, given all of that, if you were Mike Shanahan where would you START to look if you were looking for THE BEST PLAYERS?"

son: "Those who started the all-star game!!!"

dad: "CORRECT, my son! you've grown up to be a smart boy!"
dad: "That's where YOU START to look for your best players!"

dad: "But, it's not that easy, because those that make the all-star teams in college don't always turn out to be the best players in the NFL"

son: (totally confused now)...."Hmmm.......wait a minute.........you've confused me!

dad: "why, son?"

son: "because the best players in college SHOULD be the BEST PLAYERS IN THE NFL!"

dad: "hmmmm........you're right, son! and when I think about it, MOST of the time, that IS THE CASE. The best college players are the best NFL players. MOST of the time. Good point son!"

son: "Wouldn't it be easier for Mike Shanahan to take the BEST PLAYERS in college? Those who were all-stars?"

dad: "yes, son. It would be easier."

son: (walks away satisfied that the NFL draft is not as complicated as daddy NEARLY made it out to be).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That was a REAL conversation I had with my boy.

His simple logic, based on UNBIASED, UNADULTERATED thinking was that: "You take the BEST players. The ALL-STARS!"

I could NOT convince him that there are OTHER good players. He was stuck on taking ALL-STARS.

Why? For one simple reason: "If they were good in college then they probably will be good in the pros"

We like to complicate it and make it more scientific than that, but it's not.

The probabilities ARE MUCH HIGHER that a GREAT player in college will turn out to be a good or even GREAT player in the pros.

Sure, there's upside and some players mature later, no denying that. But, aren't those players GREATER gambles than stablished ones? MOST CERTAINLY!

Broncosinindy
01-17-2008, 12:37 PM
That's the way to see it! You're correct.

Why ASSUME that someone who SUCCEEDED at THE HIGHEST LEVEL in college, playing against top conpetition and winning awards, landing as a FIRST team all-american TWICE in back to back years, will FAIL in the NFL? Why would one even ASSUME that?

One thing is to be NERVOUS while hoping he succeeds at the NFL. Hoping he's not a bust. That's OK, because there's plenty of precendence to make us be CONCERNED.

But concern about Ellis is not what I'm hearing from some of you, but GURANTEES that he'll fail.........BECAUSE OF HIS SIZE!!! Absurd!
To be honest what is UBSURD is that you capitalize like THIS all THE time, AND its REALLY getting ANNOYING. WE understand EMPHAISIS without IT

WE get YOUR man CRUSH with SEDRICK ELLIS. ITS fine to be HONEST I would RATHER GO OFFENSE in the FIRST

jrfernan
01-17-2008, 01:05 PM
To be honest what is UBSURD is that you capitalize like THIS all THE time, AND its REALLY getting ANNOYING. WE understand EMPHAISIS without IT

WE get YOUR man CRUSH with SEDRICK ELLIS. ITS fine to be HONEST I would RATHER GO OFFENSE in the FIRST

I like it when you CAPITALIZE. Good job!!! It tells me that you have some blood running through your veins. That you're not a stiff at the coroner's table.

BroncoKazuki
01-17-2008, 08:15 PM
We all know that All Star games are purely based on popularity.
You know the list of Conferences right.

I'll list the Major ones that probably get more Face time then others.

Major Collegic Football Schools
Big 10 Conference
Big 12 Conference (North and South Divisions)
Big East Conference
Pacific 10 Conference

Mid Level Collegic Football Schools Yet Known more for their Academics
Southeastern Conference (SCC) [Eastern and Western Divisions]
Sun Belt Conference (SBC)
Division I-A Independents


Minor Collegic Football Schools
Atlantic Coast Conference (Atlantic and Coastal Division) (ACC)
Mid-American Conference (MAC) [East and West Divisions]
Mountain West Conference (MWC)
Western Athletic Conference (WAC)
Conference USA (East and West Divisions)


Ok now given that I separated witch schools go where in the Major, Mid and Minor College schools it gives your arguement a Boost.

Because USC is considered a Major Collegic Football school vs a School in the Mid vs a school in the Minor.

So with that said its hard to select one player out of all those divisions to be on the First team.

How do you do it, If out of all those teams play well what do you base it off of, its hard dont you think you gotta cut it somewhere, so you go with the Major College Football schools because they usually turn out the better players vs Mid level and Minor colleges.

Yet how much of it is skill and how much of it is Hype. Thats the underlying just because that player is in the Major Football schools that spend money on recruitment of High school players. What makes you say that if that said player was in a I-A or I-AA school would he still be ranked that high as a Elite Football player? Yes? No?

I think NO because I mean if you dont get your face seen you cant be noticed as the best player in the College ranks now. So even though majority of the Best Players have the chances of being shown on the main stage. You cant discount the players that are In the Draft just because he's not in the top 15.

Same thing goes with every other position but, in the quality of the player comes down to just this,
while the top 15 is nice to look at, theres always a few lemons, and the lower you go theres maybe a few gems.

So you just gotta look but dont discount all.

Jay2Javon4life
01-18-2008, 01:05 AM
gotta go with jrfrenan on this one again. If you look at Okam the only thing that people on here like about him is his size. I don't care if you love football or have 50000 posts on here but if you watch any college ball, especially UT then you would know the kind of player that Okam is. He is the kinda guy that will make a great play then the next series just sit there. I think he has a poor motor and many people question his love for the game. The last thing we need is a guy that takes plays off (sam adams). Than again we could hope for Ellis, yeah he is slightly undersized but last time i checked Bates isnt here anymore people. Slow will most likely bring in a penetrating type D that uses blitzes and what not to pressure, so what better to have then a two good penetrating DT's. Not to mention the fact that the guys motor is non stop. What he lacks in size he makes up for in work ethic and strength. In my eyes Okam is purely a workout warrior, why is everyone on here saying wait til the combine he will rise. Yeah, to bad the combine doesn't show how they preform against other teams. And stats wise Ellis is superior and he played against Superior talent. So when Okam benches 600 lbs and runs a good time and everyone wants to draft him, I am going to be laughing when he's on the sideline sucking wind every other series at Invesco

BF
01-18-2008, 07:29 AM
gotta go with jrfrenan on this one again. If you look at Okam the only thing that people on here like about him is his size. I don't care if you love football or have 50000 posts on here but if you watch any college ball, especially UT then you would know the kind of player that Okam is. He is the kinda guy that will make a great play then the next series just sit there. I think he has a poor motor and many people question his love for the game. The last thing we need is a guy that takes plays off (sam adams). Than again we could hope for Ellis, yeah he is slightly undersized but last time i checked Bates isnt here anymore people. Slow will most likely bring in a penetrating type D that uses blitzes and what not to pressure, so what better to have then a two good penetrating DT's. Not to mention the fact that the guys motor is non stop. What he lacks in size he makes up for in work ethic and strength. In my eyes Okam is purely a workout warrior, why is everyone on here saying wait til the combine he will rise. Yeah, to bad the combine doesn't show how they preform against other teams. And stats wise Ellis is superior and he played against Superior talent. So when Okam benches 600 lbs and runs a good time and everyone wants to draft him, I am going to be laughing when he's on the sideline sucking wind every other series at Invesco

Good point. Okam is not 1st round material, never will be. A bust waiting to happen.

jrfernan
01-18-2008, 09:47 AM
I think he has a poor motor and many people question his love for the game. The last thing we need is a guy that takes plays off (sam adams).

That's been my ONLY issue with taking Okam. And it's a MONUMENTAL one. Lack of: intensity, desire and motor negates most anything else he may have going for him. What good is it if he plays great one quarter or one half at stopping the run when he can't do the same in the 4th. We can't overlook that. It's not a small issue.

Also: can Okam penetrate on passing downs? "Oh, but we don't need him to penetrate, we have OTHER guys to do that?", you will tell me!

Yeah! WHO!? Who do we have to PENETRATE from the middle of the DL? LOL!!!

If we were to categorize our top three needs/faults for the 2007 season, they fall like this:

1. Inability to stop the run ***
2. Inability to rush the QB ***
3. Subpar special teams play

*** The TOP TWO can be addressed by Ellis NOT Okam.

jrfernan
01-18-2008, 10:04 AM
You say the following:


We all know that All Star games are purely based on popularity.

Then, you say THIS:


Ok now given that I separated witch schools go where in the Major, Mid and Minor College schools it gives your arguement a Boost.

Because USC is considered a Major Collegic Football school vs a School in the Mid vs a school in the Minor.

So with that said its hard to select one player out of all those divisions to be on the First team.

Exactly! It's very hard to select ONE player out of all of those divisions! Thank you! You've reinforced my point.

So, the ONE guy, in this case Ellis, who's a TERROR to every offense he's played against(not because I say it, but because it's OBVIOUS) is the guy that's chosen as the number one guy at his position.

Here's a video of the Rose Bowl pregame show featuring Bowden and, sure enough, there's some talk and highlights of Ellis and what he can do to destroy an offensive plan. This is against Illinois, pretty good competition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5usdtd1JIG8

Here are TWO plays against UCLA and you can see that, when lining up as a NT, the UCLA center couldn't contain him. It was like a kid trying to hold back a bear! On both ocassions Ellis was held. One time yielding a safety.
He was in the backfield like a Japanese bullet train!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwOQKZtu3l0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j6-skM_kMA

"Oh! but those films are just hype and isolated INCIDENTS in which Ellis did some good", you will tell me Kazuki!

WRONGO! That's what offenses had to contend with each and every week. Those are just TWO example of DOZENS of plays he made all year long.

You could argue with me until your face turns orange, but one thing stands: The cream rises to the top. It always does.

BroncoKazuki
01-18-2008, 01:02 PM
You say the following:



Then, you say THIS:



Exactly! It's very hard to select ONE player out of all of those divisions! Thank you! You've reinforced my point.

So, the ONE guy, in this case Ellis, who's a TERROR to every offense he's played against(not because I say it, but because it's OBVIOUS) is the guy that's chosen as the number one guy at his position.

Here's a video of the Rose Bowl pregame show featuring Bowden and, sure enough, there's some talk and highlights of Ellis and what he can do to destroy an offensive plan. This is against Illinois, pretty good competition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5usdtd1JIG8

Here are TWO plays against UCLA and you can see that, when lining up as a NT, the UCLA center couldn't contain him. It was like a kid trying to hold back a bear! On both ocassions Ellis was held. One time yielding a safety.
He was in the backfield like a Japanese bullet train!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwOQKZtu3l0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j6-skM_kMA

"Oh! but those films are just hype and isolated INCIDENTS in which Ellis did some good", you will tell me Kazuki!

WRONGO! That's what offenses had to contend with each and every week. Those are just TWO example of DOZENS of plays he made all year long.

You could argue with me until your face turns orange, but one thing stands: The cream rises to the top. It always does.

Im not gonna argue that, but it comes down to good execution of the Defensive Line coach for all those players. So Ellis raw talent was refined by the USC coaching staff. Its very good and that kid was probably saught at by at least a dozen to two dozen schools offering a full ride.

See where Im going with that. So now Because USC is rather known for is PR Hype machine he chose to go there... good choice if you want to be known far and wide. Since the Pac 10 is virtually all over the ESPN, every young football fan knows that the Pac 10 gets more face time on ESPN vs other Divisons.

Ask a HS kid where they wanna play, the number one school on their list is USC.

Ellis could have likely gone to LSU but LSU only gets the east coast and somewhat of the limelight by ESPN. (low face time).

Its all about the sell, how well can you sell yourself and how big of a stage.

Some have that opportunity others dont, so you got the choice.

I do stand by that the 'All Star' type deals that ESPN and scouting agencies do are semi-biased, because they tend to stay in that bubble of the Pac 10 Big 12 ect.

2nd team is basically those who are in the mid range so they make a secondary team to praise those, and 3rd team so on.


So case in point, I stand firm that No matter how much you say we should Draft Defense, most likely we wont because we spent Last year doing JUST THAT, Drafting Defense. Last years draft barely had any impact (of course injuries didnt help us) Still its playing with fire, and Shanahan risked getting better Defensive Line Players just for that to fix our bad D-line. He willingly let the RB core faulter, the Safety Postion Neglected, the Offensive Line Neglected, and Line Backer Core deflated.

Just so we can grab a 1 DT and 2 DE's last year, you've read how many picks we gave up to do that. we only picked up 4 out of 7 last year, Moving up to Grab DE,DE,OT,DT. So with everything said and done were gonna sacrafice more just to grab another DT.

I think to make a good team, you gotta alternate year by year,

Offense , Defense, Offense, Defense. We did Offense the year before, we went for Defense last year, this year is a must to address the RB and WR positions, Next year we can go Defense with Offensive Line.


Just agree with me on this, Henry, Young and Hall cannot do it. Henry is overpaid, Young shows some flashes but wears out too fast, and Hall is better as a backup.

Well I dont know how much I can argue this point. Seems every time i bring up a good argument, you just cant understand that this year must be a Offensive draft.

jrfernan
01-18-2008, 02:12 PM
Just agree with me on this, Henry, Young and Hall cannot do it. Henry is overpaid, Young shows some flashes but wears out too fast, and Hall is better as a backup.

I COMPLETELY AGREE with you! We need a running back; we most certainly do! DESPERATELY!

But, IMO, and I think this is where you and I go off in different directions, is that I believe there is MUCH MORE depth at the RB position in this year's draft than at DT. BY FAR!

Case in point: Kevin Smith and Matt Forte. Either of those guys would be first rounders if not for McFadden and the other few EXCELLENT juniors that have declared. And I REALLY believe we can get either Smith or Forte in the second or POSSIBLY even the fourth. When a guy like Forte is projected as a 4th rounder, what does that say about the depth of the draft at RB?!

I don't see the same thing when I look at DTs. Beyond the first two guys, Dorsey and Ellis, the rest would ONLY be first rounders if a team was desperate; like the Broncos were last year when they grabbed Jarvis Moss. The ONLY reason Moss was a first rounder was because of the lack of depth at DE last year. If it were a stronger class of DEs, he'd been a second, third or lower pick.

See, I look at quality in this year's draft rather than quantity. I'd be COMPLETELY satisfied if we picked up a TOP/First Round DT and a GOOD RB and a GOOD safety in lower rounds. I don't see what else we need.

I'd MUCH rather have THREE GOOD players than seven mediocre ones.

Plus, we need to let our current crop of young guys rise to the ocassion. Marcus Thomas, Steve Harris. Let's not give up on those guys so easily.

Broncosinindy
01-18-2008, 02:33 PM
I like it when you CAPITALIZE. Good job!!! It tells me that you have some blood running through your veins. That you're not a stiff at the coroner's table.

all by my capitalization. wow you could be the next big thing(bill gates?) you should take that on the road

BroncoKazuki
01-18-2008, 05:15 PM
I COMPLETELY AGREE with you! We need a running back; we most certainly do! DESPERATELY!

But, IMO, and I think this is where you and I go off in different directions, is that I believe there is MUCH MORE depth at the RB position in this year's draft than at DT. BY FAR!

Case in point: Kevin Smith and Matt Forte. Either of those guys would be first rounders if not for McFadden and the other few EXCELLENT juniors that have declared. And I REALLY believe we can get either Smith or Forte in the second or POSSIBLY even the fourth. When a guy like Forte is projected as a 4th rounder, what does that say about the depth of the draft at RB?!

I don't see the same thing when I look at DTs. Beyond the first two guys, Dorsey and Ellis, the rest would ONLY be first rounders if a team was desperate; like the Broncos were last year when they grabbed Jarvis Moss. The ONLY reason Moss was a first rounder was because of the lack of depth at DE last year. If it were a stronger class of DEs, he'd been a second, third or lower pick.

See, I look at quality in this year's draft rather than quantity. I'd be COMPLETELY satisfied if we picked up a TOP/First Round DT and a GOOD RB and a GOOD safety in lower rounds. I don't see what else we need.

I'd MUCH rather have THREE GOOD players than seven mediocre ones.

Plus, we need to let our current crop of young guys rise to the ocassion. Marcus Thomas, Steve Harris. Let's not give up on those guys so easily.

Smith is My secondary if a team makes a power play to grab mendenhall. But After that I stop the buck, Mendenhall and Smith are both my top RB picks. I think Smith has the tangibles to get into the 2nd round because hes pretty good. With the Combine it can force out players that are in the 11-25 down to the 2nd and 3rd So moving down quite logically is probably the best move. I mean what happens if K.Phillips get shoved into the 2nd round, and Bennett Gets shoved into the 3rd because the RB class moved up. I mean look at it this way we move down grab our RB in the first, get an extra 2nd round pick get Phillips and a DT, then 3rd we grab Bennett Wouldnt that be perfect.

jrfernan
01-18-2008, 06:32 PM
Smith is My secondary if a team makes a power play to grab mendenhall. But After that I stop the buck, Mendenhall and Smith are both my top RB picks. I think Smith has the tangibles to get into the 2nd round because hes pretty good. With the Combine it can force out players that are in the 11-25 down to the 2nd and 3rd So moving down quite logically is probably the best move. I mean what happens if K.Phillips get shoved into the 2nd round, and Bennett Gets shoved into the 3rd because the RB class moved up. I mean look at it this way we move down grab our RB in the first, get an extra 2nd round pick get Phillips and a DT, then 3rd we grab Bennett Wouldnt that be perfect.

Yeah, we can do all of that to get our RB and S. I have no issue with your outlook on all of that. It's all very valid and history backs up what you're saying and it could very well happen.

All that being said, I'm still VERY concerned about getting some bogus DT in the later rounds that will give us more of what we've had: LAZINESS!

Okam was everyone's favorite on this board for nearly one month. Where's he on the charts? He's dropping on EVERY SINGLE chart I've seen. That's not very hopeful. If you say that he's dropping and others are rising, sure! The draft has no holes!!! LOL! Someone's gotta fill the spot that Okam left vacant. But is the guy that filled his spot MUCH better? I doubt it.

I've yet to see ONE DT on any list, aside from Dorsey and Ellis, where anyone says anything positive about their motor. All I'm reading/hearing about everyone bellow Ellis is stuff like: "weak motor", "doesn't play all game", "takes off too many plays", "doesn't show consistent motor" etc.
That is NOT very encouraging.

Look for yourself and find me ONE guy on ANY chart where someone says: "Athletic, showing strength, but raw, lacking technique. Shows huge upside because of non-stop motor."

Show me that guy! I want to see that DT! Because such a guy can be TAUGHT and MOLDED. He can be taught technique, but what he can't be taught is desire, intesity and MOTOR. Those things are innate and cannot be taught. That football HUNGER that the GREAT ones have. Can't teach that.

Tell me, please, who has that? I don't care about great DT technique or awards, or what school they came from or played against. The MOTOR. That's the KEY!

Take a guy like Howie Long, a HOFamer and an all-time NFL classic. He was a SECOND rounder! He wasn't a number one pick or a first rounder. BUT, he had MOTOR, man! He was a live wire. Played EVERY DOWN like it was his last.

Find me THAT guy, in LATER ROUNDS, and I'll drive his bandwagon.

For now, I only see Ellis as that non-stop motor guy and I'm driving his bandwagon until I find a better one!

lancane
01-18-2008, 06:38 PM
Yeah, we can do all of that to get our RB and S. I have no issue with your outlook on all of that. It's all very valid and history backs up what you're saying and it could very well happen.

All that being said, I'm still VERY concerned about getting some bogus DT in the later rounds that will give us more of what we've had: LAZINESS!

Okam was everyone's favorite on this board for nearly one month. Where's he on the charts? He's dropping on EVERY SINGLE chart I've seen. That's not very hopeful. If you say that he's dropping and others are rising, sure! The draft has no holes!!! LOL! Someone's gotta fill the spot that Okam left vacant. But is the guy that filled his spot MUCH better? I doubt it.

I've yet to see ONE DT on any list, aside from Dorsey and Ellis, where anyone says anything positive about their motor. All I'm reading/hearing about everyone bellow Ellis is stuff like: "weak motor", "doesn't play all game", "takes off too many plays", "doesn't show consistent motor" etc.
That is NOT very encouraging.

Look for yourself and find me ONE guy on ANY chart where someone says: "Athletic, showing strength, but raw, lacking technique. Shows huge upside because of non-stop motor."

Show me that guy! I want to see that DT! Because such a guy can be TAUGHT and MOLDED. He can be taught technique, but what he can't be taught is desire, intesity and MOTOR. Those things are innate and cannot be taught. That football HUNGER that the GREAT ones have. Can't teach that.

Tell me, please, who has that? I don't care about great DT technique or awards, or what school they came from or played against. The MOTOR. That's the KEY!

Take a guy like Howie Long, a HOFamer and an all-time NFL classic. He was a SECOND rounder! He wasn't a number one pick or a first rounder. BUT, he had MOTOR, man! He was a live wire. Played EVERY DOWN like it was his last.

Find me THAT guy, in LATER ROUNDS, and I'll drive his bandwagon.

For now, I only see Ellis as that non-stop motor guy and I'm driving his bandwagon until I find a better one!

We all understand why you like and would want Ellis, just that Denver will refuse to pay for top notch free agents this year, so they will use their picks accordingly and as I have said already - Ellis will not drop in value, and above that I think Phillips goes higher then anyone is even thinking right now...so that leaves us with little choice but to go offensively in round one, Detroit could be a trade partner cause they would probably like to get Rivers.

AC1
01-18-2008, 07:44 PM
I like it when you CAPITALIZE. Good job!!! It tells me that you have some blood running through your veins. That you're not a stiff at the coroner's table.

While I understand that you probably capitalize for emphasis, that's not the common usage. Capitalization denotes yelling, and anyone who is internet-savvy (who isn't these days?) automatically "hears" capitalized words as being yelled out. A more appropriate way is to boldface the words you want to emphasize.

I appreciate the amount of effort you put into your posts. I do think that you will have more people willing to read and understand your point of view, if you went easy with the caps. Read one of your posts out to yourself, shouting each of the words you capitalized and see how rude and angry it sounds.

It may seem absurd and arbitrary that something like capitalizing could annoy someone so much, but then every community has its own rules of etiquette (some might find it strange that we take a raised middle finger as an insult).

Since I don't want to post on your thread without saying anything about the topic of the thread, I thought I'd mention that I'd be happy if we took Ellis at 12. I think defensive linemen ought to be drafted and drafted high, not acquired through free-agency. However, I don't like the idea of trading up for him (or anyone else for that matter). Lower round picks are very important to build depth and find supporting players, which are as important to a team's success as the marquee players. Squandering them for anyone other than a franchise QB isn't the way to go.

armchair scout
01-18-2008, 08:12 PM
I will be quite surprised if Ellis drops to 12. I think the comparisons with Ellis should be drawn with Dorsey. OKAM IS SECOND ROUND TOPS. Sorry, I didn't mean to yell.:salute:

jrfernan
01-18-2008, 11:32 PM
While I understand that you probably capitalize for emphasis, that's not the common usage. Capitalization denotes yelling, and anyone who is internet-savvy (who isn't these days?) automatically "hears" capitalized words as being yelled out. A more appropriate way is to boldface the words you want to emphasize.

I appreciate the amount of effort you put into your posts. I do think that you will have more people willing to read and understand your point of view, if you went easy with the caps. Read one of your posts out to yourself, shouting each of the words you capitalized and see how rude and angry it sounds.

It may seem absurd and arbitrary that something like capitalizing could annoy someone so much, but then every community has its own rules of etiquette (some might find it strange that we take a raised middle finger as an insult).

Since I don't want to post on your thread without saying anything about the topic of the thread, I thought I'd mention that I'd be happy if we took Ellis at 12. I think defensive linemen ought to be drafted and drafted high, not acquired through free-agency. However, I don't like the idea of trading up for him (or anyone else for that matter). Lower round picks are very important to build depth and find supporting players, which are as important to a team's success as the marquee players. Squandering them for anyone other than a franchise QB isn't the way to go.

I appreciate your kind post VERY MUCH! But I don't yell, I EMPHASIZE. I'm a very expressive individual and the internet steals the joy of expression. If you keep that in mind you'll realize that my postst are REAL EASY to read. Plus, I'm not one to go with the grain. For if I were, I'd be promoting Okam as our first round DT. :rolleyes:

Internet etiquette is also demonstrated by allowing others to express themselves; however they see fit, without resorting to mother hen tactics. To say that there is only ONE way to communicate on the internet is, well, sorta Marxist. Kinda like what China would LOVE to implement WORLD WIDE! broooo haaahaaaa :eek:

Some find my style amusing, others couldn't care less. Yet, others....it GRATES on their NERVES. If you fall into the latter category, I encourage you to stop reading my posts and/or block them. No hurt feelings on my part; honest! :D I get enough CONTENT RELATED feedback on my posts to know that substance wins over style EVERY TIME!

If you're still with me and haven't vomitted, read on...

As for D line, yes, we should take the PROPER DT in the first round. Trading up, if done properly, can be advantageous. Granted, it's not the preferred way to add depth to a roster, as you've pointed out. But, it can add the QUALITY players needed to build successful teams.

IDEALLY every sports franchise should have the quality AND the depth that the Phoenix Suns have or that the Detroit Red Wings enjoyed for so long. Our own Avalanche set a standard for quality and depth during their Cup years that is seldom seen in sports.

We're SO FAR from having those two qualities on the Broncos that we need to start somewhere. I FIRMLY believe that we need to start with QUALITY. Certain players, specially if they have high motors, tend to INSPIRE those will lower revving engines. I know that from first hand experience having played sports through college and having been the captain of a successful team. Certain players are leaders because they have, not only the physical gifts, but the ability to FOCUS and keep driving LATE into the game. That's called MOTOR.

All major sports have high motor guys. Even baseball teams will have guys that are INTENSE all game long. THOSE are your leaders. Not the guys who day dream and take innings off, or entire quarters off. Those guys WE DON'T NEED. We have TOO MANY on the Broncos as it is.

A high revving guy like Ellis is worth more than TWO LOWER ROUND guys simply because he will INSPIRE.

Whether you like my writing approach or not, you cannot deny that an inspirational player is PRICELESS and a rare find. And when you find him, GRAB HIM and don't let go!

Chaboyer
01-19-2008, 12:58 AM
Give me Okam hhim and Crowder already have familiarity and therefore some chemistry (hopefully)

and also Elis' size may not hinder him at all in the NCAA but the bigger O Linemen may affet him and wear him down

so in my opinion Okam would be better for us as he could free up Thomas and the ends to make plays and be the unsung hero of the d line like most dominant lines have had over the years

BF
01-19-2008, 01:04 PM
Give me Okam hhim and Crowder already have familiarity and therefore some chemistry (hopefully)

and also Elis' size may not hinder him at all in the NCAA but the bigger O Linemen may affet him and wear him down

so in my opinion Okam would be better for us as he could free up Thomas and the ends to make plays and be the unsung hero of the d line like most dominant lines have had over the years

I would rather spend our 1st on Ellis than Okam. Okam is a bust in the 1st round, wouldn't even consider him until the 4th and hopefully he will be gone. Besides, Iam all for an impact player in the first. Rashad Mendenhall!!!!!

The|Snake#16
01-19-2008, 01:07 PM
Okam won't drop to the 4th, but he likely won't go into the 1st either. If we stay at 12 we have to pray for Ellis/Clady to drop, if not we should trade down and take Mendenhall/Stewart.

Astrass
01-22-2008, 02:19 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/football/nfl/01/22/risers.sliders/index.html?eref=si_topstories


Sedrick Ellis, DT, USC: The Trojan defender has been a penetrating force thus far, playing with the quickness and explosion he's known for. He's built like a tank and has displayed a lot of power, which caught many by surprise.


Ellis is the kind of talent you build your front 7 around. He would be a focal point of how an offense has to game plan for. Now couple that with Champ and Dre manning the secondary and you have yourself a Defense people love to watch.

fraguela09
01-22-2008, 02:27 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/football/nfl/01/22/risers.sliders/index.html?eref=si_topstories


Sedrick Ellis, DT, USC: The Trojan defender has been a penetrating force thus far, playing with the quickness and explosion he's known for. He's built like a tank and has displayed a lot of power, which caught many by surprise.


Ellis is the kind of talent you build your front 7 around. He would be a focal point of how an offense has to game plan for. Now couple that with Champ and Dre manning the secondary and you have yourself a Defense people love to watch.


WITHOUT a doubt.. Ellis would have to be our first choice... Might even consider moving up to grab him. Our D-line would be set for years to come. How great would it be to have the core of our defense set in stone, to match with our foundation on Offense (Cutler-MArsh-Scheff-Kup)...

If we stay at 12 and Ellis is there... Not even an issue.

JoRo
01-22-2008, 02:27 PM
To me it's a very simple process. This is the conversation between my son and I when trying to explain to him how the NFL draft works...

son: "Dad, how does the NFL draft work? How do teams KNOW what players to choose?"

dad:"Good question!......The NFL consists MOSTLY(99%) of ex-college players. Given that BASIC FACT, son, where do you think NFL teams go to when looking for players?"

son: "hmmm......COLLEGES?!"

dad: "bingo, son!"
dad: "So, if you were looking for the best players how would you find them?"

son: "hmmm.......hmmmm........I think you would FIRST look at the ones who played the best."

dad: "right!......but, how would YOU KNOW who played the best?"

son: "hmmm.....well, you'd look at the games they played!"

dad: "correct, son! and that's called "viewing film" in the NFL and coaches do EXACTLY that."
dad: "What else would help you decide who's a good player?"

son: "hmm......those who make the all-star games.......like in baseball!"

dad: "Excellent! Yes, all-star games. That's a good way. But, there really aren't any good all-star games in college and sometimes good players don't want to play in those so they won't get hurt, so the newspaper writers, coaches and players choose their all-stars and put them on certain lists. One such list is the AP All-American list. This list ranks them by first, second, third team etc....."

son: "Oh! Like starters in the baseball all-star game -vs- those who sit on the bench when the game starts!"

dad: "Yes! Like that, son. Just like that!"

dad: "So, given all of that, if you were Mike Shanahan where would you START to look if you were looking for THE BEST PLAYERS?"

son: "Those who started the all-star game!!!"

dad: "CORRECT, my son! you've grown up to be a smart boy!"
dad: "That's where YOU START to look for your best players!"

dad: "But, it's not that easy, because those that make the all-star teams in college don't always turn out to be the best players in the NFL"

son: (totally confused now)...."Hmmm.......wait a minute.........you've confused me!

dad: "why, son?"

son: "because the best players in college SHOULD be the BEST PLAYERS IN THE NFL!"

dad: "hmmmm........you're right, son! and when I think about it, MOST of the time, that IS THE CASE. The best college players are the best NFL players. MOST of the time. Good point son!"

son: "Wouldn't it be easier for Mike Shanahan to take the BEST PLAYERS in college? Those who were all-stars?"

dad: "yes, son. It would be easier."

son: (walks away satisfied that the NFL draft is not as complicated as daddy NEARLY made it out to be).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That was a REAL conversation I had with my boy.

His simple logic, based on UNBIASED, UNADULTERATED thinking was that: "You take the BEST players. The ALL-STARS!"

I could NOT convince him that there are OTHER good players. He was stuck on taking ALL-STARS.

Why? For one simple reason: "If they were good in college then they probably will be good in the pros"

We like to complicate it and make it more scientific than that, but it's not.

The probabilities ARE MUCH HIGHER that a GREAT player in college will turn out to be a good or even GREAT player in the pros.

Sure, there's upside and some players mature later, no denying that. But, aren't those players GREATER gambles than stablished ones? MOST CERTAINLY!

Actually a study was shown by FO that the award winners for offense are less likely to succeed than award winners on D.

I am not saying you are wrong, but the only question I continue to have about players from such stud programs is: how much help did he get because he was on such a stud D?

I do however think Ellis looks like he will be a stud pickup if he is there, my only thing was that I didn't think he'd fit before with the Bates scheme... Now? Not sure but if he is there I don't think I'd be the first to complain

jrfernan
01-22-2008, 02:43 PM
WITHOUT a doubt.. Ellis would have to be our first choice... Might even consider moving up to grab him. Our D-line would be set for years to come.

EXACTLY!!! Why settle for lesser talent? Why not try to have BALANCE by having talent on BOTH sides of the ball?! It's a no-brainer for me.


How great would it be to have the core of our defense set in stone, to match with our foundation on Offense (Cutler-MArsh-Scheff-Kup)...

It would be FANTASTIC!! It'd change the TEAM COMPLETELY! An overhaul, if you will. A NEW mindset, attitude, personality, <fill in the blank>.

JoRo
01-22-2008, 02:45 PM
I do hope we don't trade up though, but that is me. I don't love any ONE player in this draft. But if Ellis is there at 12 he is def. the best talent available.

fraguela09
01-22-2008, 02:53 PM
You had me at "HELLO."

Ellis-Thomas... Moss-Crowder-Elvis.



Ellis is probably going to go top 10... We might have to deal w/ NE to get him.

jrfernan
01-22-2008, 02:57 PM
I am not saying you are wrong, but the only question I continue to have about players from such stud programs is: how much help did he get because he was on such a stud D?

I do however think Ellis looks like he will be a stud pickup if he is there, my only thing was that I didn't think he'd fit before with the Bates scheme... Now? Not sure but if he is there I don't think I'd be the first to complain

I AGREE! I'm not 100% CERTAIN that Ellis will be the NEXT GREAT DT. I'm nervous about getting him; please don't think I am not. I was nervous when we got Johnny Boy back in the day! LOL! I was predicting a bust! And look how Number 7 turned out. Not too shabby, hey! :goofy:

HOWEVER, I am a MUCH MORE nervous and concerned about getting ANYONE ELSE at DT, to include: Okam, Simms, Balmer et al.
And I will throw in any FA DT that's out there.

That's why I've been hanging on to my guy Ellis. I think he's the BEST GAMBLE of ANY DT(excluding Dorsey, of course).

Look, guys, the draft is a gamble. We need to stop making it more than it is. It's an EDUCATED GAMBLE. Not a BLIND CRAPSHOOT. No! Because there is a lot that goes into it. But, Shanny himself has said it EVERY YEAR, after the draft: "we have to WAIT AND SEE how the guys peform in REAL GAMES(excluding even pre-season)."

I'm taking an EDUCATED GUESS that Ellis will be better than any other DT below him, or available via FA. Why EDUCATED? Well, I've seen most of these top guys play and the ONLY one that had me saying: "HOLY COW! Look how FAST AND STRONG that guy is!!!" was Sedrick Elllis. THE ONLY ONE. Even Dorsey didn't impress me as much.

Ellis is just on ANOTHER plane. He plays EVERY DOWN. That ALONE is worthy of the HIGHEST PRAISE. Never mind his quickness and strength, which are added bonuses.

fraguela09
01-22-2008, 03:04 PM
I agree 100 percent... If we can't grab Ellis... I would avoid DT until later in the draft... I would actually trade a 4th to DAL for Marcus Spears... THEN, take Langford in the 6th...

jrfernan
01-22-2008, 03:15 PM
I am not saying you are wrong, but the only question I continue to have about players from such stud programs is: how much help did he get because he was on such a stud D?

A VERY, VERY valid question. One I ask myself as well.

Here's the thing though, about Ellis. The times I've watched him play he was THE FIRST guy in the backfield on a LOT of downs; whether passing or rushing down. I want to emphasize that it was more my REACTION to his play than anything else, that had me astonished. He seemed AWFULLY QUICK for a 300 lb man. DE or Linebacker quick.

I had the SAME reaction when watching Brandon Marshall play for UCF. He just SEEMED BETTER than the competition. He STUCK OUT!

Same with Ellis. I watched him play and he seemed to be around the ball all of the time and when he tackled or sacked it was with AUTHORITY. I'm old school and like to see some SERIOUS tackling. I'm from the Butkus, Joe Green era and LOOK for tackling skills as PRIMARY indicator of a defenseman's worth. Sure, you have your BULKSTERS who eat up space on the line; but ultimately if these big men can't tackle, they are WORTHLESS. At some point they are going to HAVE to tackle and if they don't have the strength or STAMINA, then they'll miss tackles at crucial times in the game.

When evaluating DTs we need to keep in mind that their TRUE SPEED is measured in TEN YARD sprints, form a three point stance. These are not 20-40 yd guys. And I will be VERY SURPRISED if Ellis is not in the top three FASTEST DEFENDERS in the ENTIRE draft on a ten yard sprint.

fraguela09
01-22-2008, 03:34 PM
YEAH... this aint Frosty Rucker we're talking about... This guy is a tank... HArd for guards to push him back. He can explode off the snap and his low center of gravity makes him special.

I agree that Ellis should be our first choice, then Kenny Phillips, then a RB (Mendehall, Stewart or Felix Jones).

I'm not sure I would trade up to grab Ellis... Price too steep. BUT, if he's there at 12... POUNCE>

jrfernan
01-22-2008, 03:50 PM
I'm not sure I would trade up to grab Ellis... Price too steep. BUT, if he's there at 12... POUNCE>

I'm still not convinced that we'd lose the farm to trade up to get Ellis. We are in better position than most teams having a few guys we REALLY don't need, but can be of interest to other teams.

A package that includes Javon and Foxy for pick(s) that we can later trade for moving up the draft board. I don't see the GREAT LOSS that everyone speaks of.

The same way that some of you don't get attached to college players, I don't become attached to some of the Broncos. If they are NOT top talent and can be traded for top talent, then MOVE THEM!

fraguela09
01-23-2008, 11:02 AM
http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showthread.php?t=110488

From the Sr-Bowl:

Sedrick Ellis is a great player. Although he doesn't look the part because he is just 257 pounds and short by NFL standards, Ellis is nearly un-blockable by just one offensive lineman, even against this level of talent. He might be the best football player in Mobile at any position. He gets off the ball with outstanding explosiveness and often beats heavier-footed interior offensive linemen with just his quickness, but he is also an exceptional technique and hands player and his feet never stop moving. Ellis almost always has better pad level than his opponent and has a quick and powerful rip move that he uses to perfection. He is a stunner who can jolt his opponent with his hands and move them backwards with his power. Centers Mike Pollack and John Sullivan were overwhelmed by Ellis in one-on-ones today and probably will be all week long. In 2008, NFL interior linemen might be overwhelmed by Ellis as well.

91bronco
01-23-2008, 11:13 AM
257 lbs- are we sure that's right??? I thought he was in the 300-310 range.....


257 lbs is awful small to be an interior D-lineman...

fraguela09
01-23-2008, 11:15 AM
I do think that was a mistake... I think he's about 305. I DO NOT MIND... GRAB HIM... Elvis-Ellis-Thomas-Crowder (w/ Moss) is our D-line for the next 7 years!

jrfernan
01-23-2008, 12:05 PM
What COMPLETELY BOGGLES my mind...I mean, just makes me question people's SANITY, nevermind football knowledge, is that some ARE STILL CONCERNED OVER SIZE ISSUES, even though there are things like the following said about the man.......


....He might be the best football player in Mobile at any position.........In 2008, NFL interior linemen might be overwhelmed by Ellis as well.
I don't know what to say! I'm STUNNED! COMPLETELY FROZEN IN MY TRACKS!

The scouts, TIME AND TIME AND TIME AND TIME AND TIME AGAIN........say the SAME THINGS......Ellis is THE REAL DEAL

In fact, this particular scout is CONFIRMING what I said three weeks ago: "Ellis is THE BEST DEFENSIVE PLAYER in this year's draft." I said that, and some of you laughed and critized me and discredited me.

Now, a guy who is WATCHING HIM play against the TOP SENIORS cranks it up a FEW KNOTCHES by saying....

"He[Ellis] may be the BEST PLAYER PERIOD out of ALL THE SENIORS!"

Yet, people are STILL WORRIED ABOUT HIS SIZE!!!! LOL!!!!!!

Am I in the Twilight Zone? Have I've been carried off into another dimension by extraterrestrials and taken to the PLANET NUMBSKULL?

What the?!

Foydemore........

Those of you who are HUNG UP on "NT -vs- three technique, blah blah blah" are NOT understanding what's being said about this guy.

It doesn't matter WHO you put on him, he's going to dominate! Evidently, from all reports the linemen facing him are OVERWHELMED. I don't know how much that word means to any of you or what you will find to minimize it, but OVERWHELMED to me means that they HAVE NO ANSWERS FOR HIM.

fraguela09
01-23-2008, 12:12 PM
I'm starting to feel the effects of the Kool-Aid. DEN might just have to trade up to get this guy. Mike Mayock said that Ellis might have passed Dorsey, especially since Dorsey decline to show...

BUT... looks like Kiffen will take Ellis... He was an asst at USC, and the Raiders need a DT.

Virtually impossible to trade up from 12 to the top 3...

Seems like a miracle must occur if we would have any chance at Ellis.

I'm sad b/c now I want this guy!

jrfernan
01-23-2008, 12:14 PM
I'm starting to feel the effects of the Kool-Aid. DEN might just have to trade up to get this guy. Mike Mayock said that Ellis might have passed Dorsey, especially since Dorsey decline to show...

BUT... looks like Kiffen will take Ellis... He was an asst at USC, and the Raiders need a DT.

Virtually impossible to trade up from 12 to the top 3...

Seems like a miracle must occur if we would have any chance at Ellis.

I'm sad b/c now I want this guy!


Ah, yeah! I know. But I haven't lost hope. NOT ONE BIT! Let's see what Shanny can pull off.

RickyNattiel
04-14-2008, 06:27 AM
Here's some footage of Okam from the Shrine Game:

Video Profile (http://www.onnetworks.com/videos/draftguys-tv/profile--frank-okam---dt?autoplay=true)

There's another DT on that site, Jason Shirley, who like Okam, can be dominant when he's on. Shirley has major character issues tho. Okam is a smart kid, it's strictly on the field that he has run hot and cold.

The Broncos seem willing to take character risk guys, but maybe Marcus Thomas getting arrested this offseason will change that (although the Clarett experiment didn't).

samparnell
04-14-2008, 10:51 AM
As far as this thread goes, Sedrick Ellis will go in the 1st round probably before #12. If he's there, the Broncos should take him. He is more of a weak side 3/one-gapper. Frank Okam has been projected as late as the 5th and by some as early as 3rd or 4th. He would do a good job as a strong side 2/3 two-gapper. If he's there when Denver has their 4th round picks, they should take him.

Sounds like the DeWayne trade will happen. It would be cool if DeWayne and Marcus were joined by Frank Okam and Trevor Laws. That would be a nice rotation at DT.

AC1
04-14-2008, 10:59 AM
Sounds like the DeWayne trade will happen. It would be cool if DeWayne and Marcus were joined by Frank Okam and Trevor Laws. That would be a nice rotation at DT.

That would be ridiculously cool, even without the addition of Robertson. I'd be very happy if we ended up with Laws and Okam, regardless of what else we do with our draft!