PDA

View Full Version : Mistakes Of The Past Leave Broncos With Long Road Back



MindField
01-29-2008, 07:31 PM
...and a terrible Draft in 2008 to get them there...

But I digress...

So, the Broncos currently draft at #12 in the first round, and currently have a total of eight Draft picks overall.

The biggest problem is, due to the fact that the Broncos have had more terrible drafts than productive ones since 2000, the Broncos have had to try and make up ground by over-paying for marginal players in free agency, or by picking up street free agents, which, ironically, they actually have had more success with.

So, where to begin?

I guess Offense is the obvious choice. So, here it is, Part I:

RB's
Travis Henry may be retained after he takes a huge paycut, since he has little to no leverage, but he was a disappointment in 2007 as he could not take the pounding, and IMO is not long for the Broncos or the NFL.
Selvin Young and Andre Hall are nice backs that might be great backups, and very capable as ST's contributors, and change-of-pace guys, but they are not starters. It makes no sense to pickup a second-tier RB in the Draft, such as Georgia Tech's Tashard Choice, because he is so similar to Selvin Young to begin with, but a late-round FB candidate is not out of the question.

Draft conclusion: Considering the overall weakness of this Draft at so many positions, and the fact that identifying a true No.1 RB has to be very high on the Broncos agenda, the selection of a RB such as Oregon's Jonathan Stewart, or Illinois' Rashard Mendenhall has to be a very good possibility if the Broncos stay at #12. But the merry-go-round at RB has to stop. The Broncos have to get a 'franchise' back in the mold of a TD or Portis to offset the backs the premier teams in the AFC have. The more weapons Jay Cutler has at his disposal, the more dynamic the Broncos Offense can become, and the more it can take pressure off of a Defense that realistically is going to need a few years to recover.

If I am making the pick, I give the selection of a RB very high consideration.

WR's
Brandon Marshall looks like a budding perennial Pro Bowler. That's a good thing, because Javon Walker, after so much promise in his first year in Denver, looks like he has talked his way out of town, and in doing so, left a huge hole in the receiver core. Brandon Stokely rebounded nicely in his re-hab from Achillies surgery that cost him the end of '06, but it remains unclear if he can stay healthy for a full season as a slot reciever. On a positive note, he may have the perfect understudy in Glen Martinez, who just continued to get better and better as the season went along, and who also showed some flair as a punt returner. All in all, he has probably earned another year to develop and see if he can become a legit NFL player. Martinez would do well to watch Stokley's every move, absorb it, and try to clone himself into that role. No one else on the roster is worth mentioning.

Draft conclusion: This is one area the Broncos may be able to best help themselves through Free Agency. There is no WR worth the #12 pick, and I would not spend a second rounder there, either, as they have bigger, more pressing needs. The Broncos should concentrate on trying to 'steal' a WR that slips into the 4th round, where thay have two selections.

Offensive Line:
Matt Lepsis has retired, and in doing so, has left a question mark at one of the most important positions on a football team, LT. Good thing for the Broncos that there seem to be some good prospects available in the Draft, and at least some depth. The Broncos also drafted Ryan Harris last year in the 3rd round, and they seem to like him, so it will be very interesting to me to see if they give Harris a year to win or lose the job before they address it with another high Draft choice.
Erik Pears has had his moments at R and LT over the last two seasons, and I really believe this is a make or break year for him. I was also disappointed to see the Broncos not promote last years practice squad OT Cliff Washburn, who the Packers signed away from them late in the year. Another late round OT selection, such as Colorado's Tyler Polumbus, would seem to be a very strong possibility.
The Broncos brass seems to like it's interior, as C Tom Nalen is said to be coming back for his 15th year. Chris Kuper is a young player that may have a future as a starter. Ben Hamilton is a question mark, and Montrae Holland is solid, if not spectacular. Chris Myers provides decent depth and ST's play.

Draft conclusion:The Broncos have made a habit out of trying to develop late round and undrafted Free Agents, and really, historically the O-Line is where you can have the most success late. I could see the Broncos trading down to say #20 or so, and drafting Vandy OT Chris Williams if he grades out there, or they could take Boise St OT Ryan Clady at #12, otherwise, I would expect the Broncos to draft some other developmental types with their Day Two picks.

ST's
A WR that can double as a dynamic kick returner would be ideal. But beyond CAL's Sean Jackson, who I would not draft with a first round pick, there really are no prospects worth drafting with a Day One pick. Glen Martinez and Andre Hall look like they may have bought the Broncos another year with their efforts late in the season, as they did a serviceable job and at least have proven themselves to be worth another look.
Kick coverage will only improve when the Broncos improve the quality of their LB's and Safeties, which are poor, and who provide the majority of the coverage teams personnel. It is no coincidence that the Defense was bad, and that the tackling on ST's was as well, because they are largely the same players doing both jobs.

Next Up: Part II/Defense

elevation INC
01-29-2008, 07:52 PM
...and a terrible Draft in 2008 to get them there...

But I digress...

So, the Broncos currently draft at #12 in the first round, and currently have a total of eight Draft picks overall.

The biggest problem is, due to the fact that the Broncos have had more terrible drafts than productive ones since 2000, the Broncos have had to try and make up ground by over-paying for marginal players in free agency, or by picking up street free agents, which, ironically, they actually have had more success with.

So, where to begin?

I guess Offense is the obvious choice. So, here it is, Part I:

RB's
Travis Henry may be retained after he takes a huge paycut, since he has little to no leverage, but he was a disappointment in 2007 as he could not take the pounding, and IMO is not long for the Broncos or the NFL.
Selvin Young and Andre Hall are nice backs that might be great backups, and very capable as ST's contributors, and change-of-pace guys, but they are not starters. It makes no sense to pickup a second-tier RB in the Draft, such as Georgia Tech's Tashard Choice, because he is so similar to Selvin Young to begin with, but a late-round FB candidate is not out of the question.

Draft conclusion: Considering the overall weakness of this Draft at so many positions, and the fact that identifying a true No.1 RB has to be very high on the Broncos agenda, the selection of a RB such as Oregon's Jonathan Stewart, or Illinois' Rashard Mendenhall has to be a very good possibility if the Broncos stay at #12. But the merry-go-round at RB has to stop. The Broncos have to get a 'franchise' back in the mold of a TD or Portis to offset the backs the premier teams in the AFC have. The more weapons Jay Cutler has at his disposal, the more dynamic the Broncos Offense can become, and the more it can take pressure off of a Defense that realistically is going to need a few years to recover.

If I am making the pick, I give the selection of a RB very high consideration.

WR's
Brandon Marshall looks like a budding perennial Pro Bowler. That's a good thing, because Javon Walker, after so much promise in his first year in Denver, looks like he has talked his way out of town, and in doing so, left a huge hole in the receiver core. Brandon Stokely rebounded nicely in his re-hab from Achillies surgery that cost him the end of '06, but it remains unclear if he can stay healthy for a full season as a slot reciever. On a positive note, he may have the perfect understudy in Glen Martinez, who just continued to get better and better as the season went along, and who also showed some flair as a punt returner. All in all, he has probably earned another year to develop and see if he can become a legit NFL player. Martinez would do well to watch Stokley's every move, absorb it, and try to clone himself into that role. No one else on the roster is worth mentioning.

Draft conclusion: This is one area the Broncos may be able to best help themselves through Free Agency. There is no WR worth the #12 pick, and I would not spend a second rounder there, either, as they have bigger, more pressing needs. The Broncos should concentrate on trying to 'steal' a WR that slips into the 4th round, where thay have two selections.

Offensive Line:
Matt Lepsis has retired, and in doing so, has left a question mark at one of the most important positions on a football team, LT. Good thing for the Broncos that there seem to be some good prospects available in the Draft, and at least some depth. The Broncos also drafted Ryan Harris last year in the 3rd round, and they seem to like him, so it will be very interesting to me to see if they give Harris a year to win or lose the job before they address it with another high Draft choice.
Erik Pears has had his moments at R and LT over the last two seasons, and I really believe this is a make or break year for him. I was also disappointed to see the Broncos not promote last years practice squad OT Cliff Washburn, who the Packers signed away from them late in the year. Another late round OT selection, such as Colorado's Tyler Polumbus, would seem to be a very strong possibility.
The Broncos brass seems to like it's interior, as C Tom Nalen is said to be coming back for his 15th year. Chris Kuper is a young player that may have a future as a starter. Ben Hamilton is a question mark, and Montrae Holland is solid, if not spectacular. Chris Myers provides decent depth and ST's play.

Draft conclusion:The Broncos have made a habit out of trying to develop late round and undrafted Free Agents, and really, historically the O-Line is where you can have the most success late. I could see the Broncos trading down to say #20 or so, and drafting Vandy OT Chris Williams if he grades out there, or they could take Boise St OT Ryan Clady at #12, otherwise, I would expect the Broncos to draft some other developmental types with their Day Two picks.

ST's
A WR that can double as a dynamic kick returner would be ideal. But beyond CAL's Sean Jackson, who I would not draft with a first round pick, there really are no prospects worth drafting with a Day One pick. Glen Martinez and Andre Hall look like they may have bought the Broncos another year with their efforts late in the season, as they did a serviceable job and at least have proven themselves to be worth another look.
Kick coverage will only improve when the Broncos improve the quality of their LB's and Safeties, which are poor, and who provide the majority of the coverage teams personnel. It is no coincidence that the Defense was bad, and that the tackling on ST's was as well, because they are largely the same players doing both jobs.

Next Up: Part II/Defense




good analysis, and well written

stnzed
01-29-2008, 08:04 PM
The very fact that the Broncos continue to keep WR's like Glenn Martinez on their roster year after year proves that they just don't get it.

This is a position that they just don't know how to draft for, and don't give me Brandon Marshall, that was luck. A broken clock is right twice a day! If they'd known he'd be this good at WR they would have drafted him sooner and NEVER considered the possibility of moving him to TE.

If drafting RB's is the Broncos strength, then drafting WR's is the Broncos Achilles heel. Trade or free agency is the Broncos only hope, imo, not players like Glenn Martinez......

SBboundBRONCOS
01-29-2008, 08:09 PM
The very fact that the Broncos continue to keep WR's like Glenn Martinez on their roster year after year proves that they just don't get it.

This is a position that they just don't know how to draft for, and don't give me Brandon Marshall, that was luck. If they'd known he'd be this good at WR they would have drafted him sooner and NEVER mentioned the possibility of moving him to TE.

A trade or free agency is the Broncos only hope, imo, not players like Glenn Martinez......

agreed, i have my fingers behind my back hoping that he doesnt even return to the team.

it made me sick while i was at the broncos vs bears game to see our #1 reciever was stokley and #2 was martinez

and to make that worse it was in the redzone:eek:

id even rather see jacobs on the team because at least he has second round potential left in him. who knows maybe he will impress

BroncoKazuki
01-29-2008, 08:27 PM
...and a terrible Draft in 2008 to get them there...

But I digress...

So, the Broncos currently draft at #12 in the first round, and currently have a total of eight Draft picks overall.

The biggest problem is, due to the fact that the Broncos have had more terrible drafts than productive ones since 2000, the Broncos have had to try and make up ground by over-paying for marginal players in free agency, or by picking up street free agents, which, ironically, they actually have had more success with.

So, where to begin?

I guess Offense is the obvious choice. So, here it is, Part I:

RB's
Travis Henry may be retained after he takes a huge paycut, since he has little to no leverage, but he was a disappointment in 2007 as he could not take the pounding, and IMO is not long for the Broncos or the NFL.
Selvin Young and Andre Hall are nice backs that might be great backups, and very capable as ST's contributors, and change-of-pace guys, but they are not starters. It makes no sense to pickup a second-tier RB in the Draft, such as Georgia Tech's Tashard Choice, because he is so similar to Selvin Young to begin with, but a late-round FB candidate is not out of the question.

Draft conclusion: Considering the overall weakness of this Draft at so many positions, and the fact that identifying a true No.1 RB has to be very high on the Broncos agenda, the selection of a RB such as Oregon's Jonathan Stewart, or Illinois' Rashard Mendenhall has to be a very good possibility if the Broncos stay at #12. But the merry-go-round at RB has to stop. The Broncos have to get a 'franchise' back in the mold of a TD or Portis to offset the backs the premier teams in the AFC have. The more weapons Jay Cutler has at his disposal, the more dynamic the Broncos Offense can become, and the more it can take pressure off of a Defense that realistically is going to need a few years to recover.

If I am making the pick, I give the selection of a RB very high consideration.

WR's
Brandon Marshall looks like a budding perennial Pro Bowler. That's a good thing, because Javon Walker, after so much promise in his first year in Denver, looks like he has talked his way out of town, and in doing so, left a huge hole in the receiver core. Brandon Stokely rebounded nicely in his re-hab from Achillies surgery that cost him the end of '06, but it remains unclear if he can stay healthy for a full season as a slot reciever. On a positive note, he may have the perfect understudy in Glen Martinez, who just continued to get better and better as the season went along, and who also showed some flair as a punt returner. All in all, he has probably earned another year to develop and see if he can become a legit NFL player. Martinez would do well to watch Stokley's every move, absorb it, and try to clone himself into that role. No one else on the roster is worth mentioning.

Draft conclusion: This is one area the Broncos may be able to best help themselves through Free Agency. There is no WR worth the #12 pick, and I would not spend a second rounder there, either, as they have bigger, more pressing needs. The Broncos should concentrate on trying to 'steal' a WR that slips into the 4th round, where thay have two selections.

Offensive Line:
Matt Lepsis has retired, and in doing so, has left a question mark at one of the most important positions on a football team, LT. Good thing for the Broncos that there seem to be some good prospects available in the Draft, and at least some depth. The Broncos also drafted Ryan Harris last year in the 3rd round, and they seem to like him, so it will be very interesting to me to see if they give Harris a year to win or lose the job before they address it with another high Draft choice.
Erik Pears has had his moments at R and LT over the last two seasons, and I really believe this is a make or break year for him. I was also disappointed to see the Broncos not promote last years practice squad OT Cliff Washburn, who the Packers signed away from them late in the year. Another late round OT selection, such as Colorado's Tyler Polumbus, would seem to be a very strong possibility.
The Broncos brass seems to like it's interior, as C Tom Nalen is said to be coming back for his 15th year. Chris Kuper is a young player that may have a future as a starter. Ben Hamilton is a question mark, and Montrae Holland is solid, if not spectacular. Chris Myers provides decent depth and ST's play.

Draft conclusion:The Broncos have made a habit out of trying to develop late round and undrafted Free Agents, and really, historically the O-Line is where you can have the most success late. I could see the Broncos trading down to say #20 or so, and drafting Vandy OT Chris Williams if he grades out there, or they could take Boise St OT Ryan Clady at #12, otherwise, I would expect the Broncos to draft some other developmental types with their Day Two picks.

ST's
A WR that can double as a dynamic kick returner would be ideal. But beyond CAL's Sean Jackson, who I would not draft with a first round pick, there really are no prospects worth drafting with a Day One pick. Glen Martinez and Andre Hall look like they may have bought the Broncos another year with their efforts late in the season, as they did a serviceable job and at least have proven themselves to be worth another look.
Kick coverage will only improve when the Broncos improve the quality of their LB's and Safeties, which are poor, and who provide the majority of the coverage teams personnel. It is no coincidence that the Defense was bad, and that the tackling on ST's was as well, because they are largely the same players doing both jobs.

Next Up: Part II/Defense

Great Job, Good choice to look at are Oneal Cousins from UTEP whos probably a round 1 talent in round 2, guy needs to work on his Kick step but he's mostly a natural interior Guy. OT Pedro Sosa (Rutgers) C Kory Lichtensteiger(Bowling Green) will also be nice quality pick ups in round 5 where they will sit. Sosa needs some working on his hand mechanics but he'll be good enough if not better. He's also a Prototype OT who we can have play both sides of the ball. and Lichtensteiger would be great to have replace Nalen as he's smart to diagnose the Defense and call the right pass blocks.

Earl Bennett, Eddie Royal and DJ Hall would be great round 3 pick ups if any of those 3 grade in there that could fill well at the 2nd WR position. Darius Reynaud will be a nice steal as well as he's slated in the 5th round and may climb to the 4th.

MindField
01-29-2008, 08:30 PM
The very fact that the Broncos continue to keep WR's like Glenn Martinez on their roster year after year proves that they just don't get it.

This is a position that they just don't know how to draft for, and don't give me Brandon Marshall, that was luck. A broken clock is right twice a day! If they'd known he'd be this good at WR they would have drafted him sooner and NEVER considered the possibility of moving him to TE.

If drafting RB's is the Broncos strength, then drafting WR's is the Broncos Achilles heel. Trade or free agency is the Broncos only hope, imo, not players like Glenn Martinez......

I don't disagree, but I don't like the Day One candidates. Overall, I hope this is addressed in Free Agency.

Max Power
01-29-2008, 08:31 PM
come on, this draft won't be that bad. There will be a lot of solid players drafted deep into the 2nd day. There may be a lack of elite talent, but not every draft can be like 2006. What I want to see from Denver in this draft, aside from specific players being selected, is as follows:

- keep the trading up to a minimum

- don't draft in bulk (two or more of the same position(s)

stnzed
01-29-2008, 08:34 PM
agreed, i have my fingers behind my back hoping that he doesnt even return to the team.

it made me sick while i was at the broncos vs bears game to see our #1 reciever was stokley and #2 was martinez

and to make that worse it was in the redzone:eek:

id even rather see jacobs on the team because at least he has second round potential left in him. who knows maybe he will impress


Agreed, as sad as that is!

Martinez is an end of the roster scrub and would be lucky to make most other teams final roster, yet he's good enough for 14 catches in Denver's depth-less WR's corp......

beastlyskronk
01-29-2008, 09:00 PM
We should have kept more draft picks last year and we really wouldn't be in this predicament right now now would we.

SBboundBRONCOS
01-29-2008, 09:12 PM
- don't draft in bulk (two or more of the same position(s)

this is something else that really bugs me. one year it was CBs last year it was DL. that is not how you build a team.

i believe building a team is much like my old job at a grocery store in, you have to rotate

meaning every so often you move the older products to the front and put the newer ones behind. you dont just get a shipment in clear the shelf and put all the new product in. and then the next shipment you get all the same stuff and throw away the older product, it just is not good business

this is a big problem for the broncos because while spending all our picks on those 2 positions it has severely hurt our Depth

i mean we have arguably the best secondary in the league, and a whole slew of promissing player on DL (not enough but a good amount)

so what are they doing, well both Paymah and Foxy are sitting down contributing very little to the team compared to where the holes are. WR,LB,S and others

you need to have solid starters, put your young guys behind them and expect them to perform when called upon (injury, retirement, etc.) and then you repeat

aldenbroncos
01-29-2008, 09:34 PM
I bow down to Mindfield

kratos_godofwar
01-30-2008, 02:35 PM
I have to disagree with all the hate on Martinez. He's got great skills and just needs to develop them. In no way is he a #1 or 2 receiver, but he makes a great slot guy. Stokely can very easily coach him up as goes with Rod Smith who's been mentoring all the WR's. Martinez will never be a #1 or 2, but he's got good feet and good hands. That's what you need from a slot guy.

Love your analysis though Minefield. Couldn't be more right. Just waiting for your defensive analysis

D.J.55
01-30-2008, 05:55 PM
Mind ive been reading your post for the past two weeks about how this is a bad draft. I what to know why you think that. And im not talking bout a postion, im talking bout who you think is bad. Give me names. I read where you said the LBs class was weak i really what to know why you think that. Im just tired of reading your stuff bout this classes being weak and you not naming names. Give why you think Rivers is bad or why Connor is bad or why Highsmith is bad, etc. Give peoples names and real reasons why this a weak class.

gyldenlove
01-30-2008, 07:33 PM
Well written there, and some solid points too.

I agree with the evaluation of the WR position. I think there are several players in FA who would fit very well without commanding Randy Moss like money. I am thinking of people like Devery Henderson, Bryant Johnson and to a lesser extend Bernard Berrian (who will be more expensive than the other 2).

RB is a very difficult position because it is so injury prone. Let us take a little walk down memory lane:

2 seasons ago, 4 RB were drafted in round 1. So far only one of them have been a feature back for a total of 1 season (Addai).

3 seasons ago, 3 RB were drafted in the top 5. Between them they have 2 good half seasons and one of the may never play again.

4 seasons ago, 3 RB drafted in round 1. 1 of them is a stud running back, 1 is injury prone and have failed to live up to his rookie season (Kevin Jones) and one can't get on the field.

In those same 3 drafts, you have people like Michael Turner (5th round), Jerios Jackson (3rd round), Maurice Jones-Drew (2nd round), Frank Gore (3rd round), Marion Barber (4th round).

For every Larry Johnson or Adrian Peterson in the 1st round, there are a couple Cedric Bensons and a Kevin Jones. Drafting RB in the 1st is just too much of a gamble for my taste when you can get talent such as Keith Rivers. I think we are better off drafting a 2nd or (if we trade) a 3rd round RB. I would like a Jamaal Charles from Texas or a Steve Slaton.

As for O-line, I do think Harris and Pears will both get a do-or-die season. We clearly need to address the OT position as we have no legit depth, so I assume we will sign a veteran FA for depth. I would like to see us draft a 4th round OT for depth as well. The big problem I see is that we may end up in a situation where Ryan Clady could be a BPA pick if we don't trade down, and if that is the case I do think we have to draft him.

stnzed
01-30-2008, 07:38 PM
Well written there, and some solid points too.

I agree with the evaluation of the WR position. I think there are several players in FA who would fit very well without commanding Randy Moss like money. I am thinking of people like Devery Henderson, Bryant Johnson and to a lesser extend Bernard Berrian (who will be more expensive than the other 2).

RB is a very difficult position because it is so injury prone. Let us take a little walk down memory lane:

2 seasons ago, 4 RB were drafted in round 1. So far only one of them have been a feature back for a total of 1 season (Addai).

3 seasons ago, 3 RB were drafted in the top 5. Between them they have 2 good half seasons and one of the may never play again.

4 seasons ago, 3 RB drafted in round 1. 1 of them is a stud running back, 1 is injury prone and have failed to live up to his rookie season (Kevin Jones) and one can't get on the field.

In those same 3 drafts, you have people like Michael Turner (5th round), Jerios Jackson (3rd round), Maurice Jones-Drew (2nd round), Frank Gore (3rd round), Marion Barber (4th round).

For every Larry Johnson or Adrian Peterson in the 1st round, there are a couple Cedric Bensons and a Kevin Jones. Drafting RB in the 1st is just too much of a gamble for my taste when you can get talent such as Keith Rivers. I think we are better off drafting a 2nd or (if we trade) a 3rd round RB. I would like a Jamaal Charles from Texas or a Steve Slaton.

As for O-line, I do think Harris and Pears will both get a do-or-die season. We clearly need to address the OT position as we have no legit depth, so I assume we will sign a veteran FA for depth. I would like to see us draft a 4th round OT for depth as well. The big problem I see is that we may end up in a situation where Ryan Clady could be a BPA pick if we don't trade down, and if that is the case I do think we have to draft him.

And for every Marion Barber there is thousands of Tatum Bells and even more Maurice Claretts.

But if Denver drafted Clady over a RB, I'd be doing cartwheels......

BroncoKazuki
01-30-2008, 07:51 PM
Well written there, and some solid points too.

I agree with the evaluation of the WR position. I think there are several players in FA who would fit very well without commanding Randy Moss like money. I am thinking of people like Devery Henderson, Bryant Johnson and to a lesser extend Bernard Berrian (who will be more expensive than the other 2).

RB is a very difficult position because it is so injury prone. Let us take a little walk down memory lane:

2 seasons ago, 4 RB were drafted in round 1. So far only one of them have been a feature back for a total of 1 season (Addai).

3 seasons ago, 3 RB were drafted in the top 5. Between them they have 2 good half seasons and one of the may never play again.

4 seasons ago, 3 RB drafted in round 1. 1 of them is a stud running back, 1 is injury prone and have failed to live up to his rookie season (Kevin Jones) and one can't get on the field.

In those same 3 drafts, you have people like Michael Turner (5th round), Jerios Jackson (3rd round), Maurice Jones-Drew (2nd round), Frank Gore (3rd round), Marion Barber (4th round).

For every Larry Johnson or Adrian Peterson in the 1st round, there are a couple Cedric Bensons and a Kevin Jones. Drafting RB in the 1st is just too much of a gamble for my taste when you can get talent such as Keith Rivers. I think we are better off drafting a 2nd or (if we trade) a 3rd round RB. I would like a Jamaal Charles from Texas or a Steve Slaton.

As for O-line, I do think Harris and Pears will both get a do-or-die season. We clearly need to address the OT position as we have no legit depth, so I assume we will sign a veteran FA for depth. I would like to see us draft a 4th round OT for depth as well. The big problem I see is that we may end up in a situation where Ryan Clady could be a BPA pick if we don't trade down, and if that is the case I do think we have to draft him.

I think your somewhat correct but you also gotta look at what teams those RB's have gone to as well as those who have already had a star RB.
Also RB's that have been considered round 1 talent can fall out of the 1st round into the 2nd round. its happened Remember Portis who was considered 1st round talent but fell to the 2nd round. So RB's who have that round 1 talent can fall out of the 1st round it has happened. But still if we go RB we gotta stay in the round 1 -round 2 area. Trading down to the mid level of round 1 to grab a RB would be perfect.

I just dont wanna go after Scrub RB's in the late 2nd round and below.

Cugel
01-30-2008, 08:22 PM
Agreed, as sad as that is!

Martinez is an end of the roster scrub and would be lucky to make most other teams final roster, yet he's good enough for 14 catches in Denver's depth-less WR's corp......

I was going to post this exact point, but you beat me to it! :laugh:

Martinez IS a scrub, and that's exactly the term I would use to describe him. He might make some other rosters but would be a special teams player most likely.

In fairness he COULD turn out to be another Rod Smith, who made his way off the practice squad to be a Ring of Fame player. But, lightning doesn't strike twice like that very often. I'm not holding my breath. :coffee:

In reality, most scrubs are just that. . . scrubs. Roster fodder. The guys the NFL is named the "not for long" league for. The Broncos need to find a viable #2 WR either through the draft, or through FA. They can't go into the season with Glenn Martinez as their #2 WR, even with Stokely as their slot WR.

Contrary to Mindfield's argument that "Henry has no leverage" he actually has quite a lot. If the Broncos cut him that accelerates a big cap-hit and then the Broncos have to find another player with a bunch of dead-cap space on their roster.

It's much more likely that he and the team will re-negotiate his contract to convert some of his salary and roster bonus into a pro-rated signing bonus. That will spread out the cap-hit over the life of his contract (which I believe still has 4 years to run and could also be extended by another year). They may also convert some of his salary to bonus.

He might take a bit of salary hit, but if the Broncos squeeze him too hard, he can always walk and cost them a LOT. So, they have some incentive not to try and screw him into the ground. He was hurt and missed some games, but he played well when he was healthy.

As for his off-field troubles, none of that was his fault. I wish all the clients I ever represented were as easily proven innocent as Henry! The federal 10th Circuit Court of Appeals called one of my client's attempted alibi defense "an unsuccessful attempt to lie." :laugh:

Henry was actually innocent! That's such a rarity! :laugh:

MindField
01-30-2008, 08:49 PM
I was going to post this exact point, but you beat me to it! :laugh:

Martinez IS a scrub, and that's exactly the term I would use to describe him. He might make some other rosters but would be a special teams player most likely.

In fairness he COULD turn out to be another Rod Smith, who made his way off the practice squad to be a Ring of Fame player. But, lightning doesn't strike twice like that very often. I'm not holding my breath. :coffee:

In reality, most scrubs are just that. . . scrubs. Roster fodder. The guys the NFL is named the "not for long" league for. The Broncos need to find a viable #2 WR either through the draft, or through FA. They can't go into the season with Glenn Martinez as their #2 WR, even with Stokely as their slot WR.

Contrary to Mindfield's argument that "Henry has no leverage" he actually has quite a lot. If the Broncos cut him that accelerates a big cap-hit and then the Broncos have to find another player with a bunch of dead-cap space on their roster.

It's much more likely that he and the team will re-negotiate his contract to convert some of his salary and roster bonus into a pro-rated signing bonus. That will spread out the cap-hit over the life of his contract (which I believe still has 4 years to run and could also be extended by another year). They may also convert some of his salary to bonus.

He might take a bit of salary hit, but if the Broncos squeeze him too hard, he can always walk and cost them a LOT. So, they have some incentive not to try and screw him into the ground. He was hurt and missed some games, but he played well when he was healthy.

As for his off-field troubles, none of that was his fault. I wish all the clients I ever represented were as easily proven innocent as Henry! The federal 10th Circuit Court of Appeals called one of my client's attempted alibi defense "an unsuccessful attempt to lie." :laugh:

Henry was actually innocent! That's such a rarity! :laugh:

Henry was not innocent. The NFL violated the collective bargaining's rule for sample collection, which is why Henry sued them in the first place, and why he beat the rap on a technicality.

As far as players like Martinez and Stephen Harris, and others that STNZD has called 'SCRUBS', this may be true, but that is also an easy conclusion to make, because if you are wrong on those players, you simply say, 'Well, they were street Free Agents, so what were the odds?'...but that is exactly the point. That is what separates good scouting depts from bad ones. You have to be able to pick up productive players off the scrap heap, because there are players to be had, and you don't have 10 first round draft picks every year to fill your roster with...and even if you did, you would still have your share of Marcus Nash's.

In the Broncos Super Bowl days, you had players like Maa Tanuvasa and Glen Cadrez, players that were cast-offs elsewhere that came in here and were very productive....players like Steve Largent and Ed McCaffrey were also cut from their initial teams. So I for one do not see why you and others are so down on Glen Martinez...with our Draft history, we absolutley NEED a few players like a Glen Martinez or a Stephen Harris to become good players for us. I mean, Martinez DID have a punt return for a TD, and actually had a decent punt return average, so it is not a huge leap to think he will improve on what he did last year. He also made a couple of nice catches on third down, which to me shows Cutler had confidence in him, and that he has more than a little potential to develop into a decent slot receiver...in any case, he has earned another look, as did players like Andre Hall, Erik Pears, Stephen Harris, Jamie Winborn and Hamza Abdullah...and if the Broncos are going to return to being a good team, some of these players will have to stick and become players we can count on, otherwise the personnel revolving door will continue to spin, and the more difficult it will be to build any continuity.

gyldenlove
01-31-2008, 09:04 AM
I agree with Mindfield on this one. Glen Martinez is obviously not Brandon Marshall, or Chad Johnson. But he is also no Darius Watts. I think there is a chance that he could develop into a solid special teams contributor and a good slot reciever. What you have to remember is that Stokley was essentially a scrub, he had a career high 24 receptions in a single season for the first 5 years in the NFL. Actually Martinez is well ahead of the Stokleys numbers for his first 2 years.

I don't think he will magically turn into a super WR, but writing him off because he didn't get drafted in the 1st round or didn't light up the league in his rookie year is too easy.

Actually, Henry doesn't have a ton of leverage. His signing bonus was 6 mill, of which more than 1 has already been counted towards the cap. His cap number if his deal continues unchanged will be over 2 mill this upcoming year. If he is cut, his cap hit will be around 4.5 mill. So the net hit will be 2.5 mill, unless he is designated a june 1st cut. Then the hit will be 500k this year, and -500k next year, so he will over the next 2 years have no net hit at all. This equals no leverage.

stnzed
01-31-2008, 10:33 AM
Henry was not innocent. The NFL violated the collective bargaining's rule for sample collection, which is why Henry sued them in the first place, and why he beat the rap on a technicality.

As far as players like Martinez and Stephen Harris, and others that STNZD has called 'SCRUBS', this may be true, but that is also an easy conclusion to make, because if you are wrong on those players, you simply say, 'Well, they were street Free Agents, so what were the odds?'...but that is exactly the point. That is what separates good scouting depts from bad ones. You have to be able to pick up productive players off the scrap heap, because there are players to be had, and you don't have 10 first round draft picks every year to fill your roster with...and even if you did, you would still have your share of Marcus Nash's.

In the Broncos Super Bowl days, you had players like Maa Tanuvasa and Glen Cadrez, players that were cast-offs elsewhere that came in here and were very productive....players like Steve Largent and Ed McCaffrey were also cut from their initial teams. So I for one do not see why you and others are so down on Glen Martinez...with our Draft history, we absolutley NEED a few players like a Glen Martinez or a Stephen Harris to become good players for us. I mean, Martinez DID have a punt return for a TD, and actually had a decent punt return average, so it is not a huge leap to think he will improve on what he did last year. He also made a couple of nice catches on third down, which to me shows Cutler had confidence in him, and that he has more than a little potential to develop into a decent slot receiver...in any case, he has earned another look, as did players like Andre Hall, Erik Pears, Stephen Harris, Jamie Winborn and Hamza Abdullah...and if the Broncos are going to return to being a good team, some of these players will have to stick and become players we can count on, otherwise the personnel revolving door will continue to spin, and the more difficult it will be to build any continuity.

You're right, it's much easier to conclude he's a scrub than it is to conclude he's the next slot machine after a punt return and 14 catches.

But I'm not saying he's a scrub just so I can be the first to be right about the player, I just don't care about crap like that......I'm just saying Martinez is a scrub and the Broncos are monumentally stupid if they are counting on him being anything more than an end of the roster scrub.

In a sense I'm agreeing with you in that Denver's mistakes have put them in a position to have to rely on the scrap heap for more than just depth.

Glenn Martinez is a poster boy for this, and sure he has earned another look......As an end of the roster scrub! The Broncos need a No2 and at least another prospect to make sure they won't actually need Martinez.

What pains me is that Shanahan has a chubby for players like this.

The Patriots needed WR's so they go out and get Moss, Stallworth, Welker and Kelley Washington......But Shanahan continues to round out his roster with Muneer Moore, Travis McGriff, Dominik Hixon, Brian Clark, David Kircus, Todd Devoe, Frank Rice, Adrian Madice, Nate Jackson and Glenn Marinez.

Why is that?

Because Shanahan is not trying to "find help" on the scrap pile, he's literally spent his entire career as a Broncos HC trying to find "The Next Rod Smith" on the scrap pile. This is why he gives up on them so quickly......

JoRo
01-31-2008, 10:47 AM
I would agree on Martinez. I think that he has a chance to do something this coming season but by no means should they COUNT on him.

That is one thing I always hate seeing is when a player shows very little and then the FO essentially says "well on those 10 catches he sure looked good... or on those 45 carries he scored a touchdown!!! WOW"

You don't go out and cut them, but you don't just say "he did this on a small chance... so by math he will def. produce if we give him a bigger role" unless he showed a ton of promise in practice too (which is not known to any of us... but if he did he would have prolly had more catches this past year since the injuries at wideout...)

I would love for Glenn to become a productive player for us, one less need later on... but noone in their right mind should count on him doing it.

stnzed
01-31-2008, 10:54 AM
Exactly!

If Martinez beats out Earl Bennet or Limas Sweed for the No2 job, he's "a surprise" that came out of nowhere, but if you don't even bother to try to upgrade the position because of 14 catches and a punt return, that's "stupid"......

Cugel
01-31-2008, 11:06 AM
Henry was not innocent. The NFL violated the collective bargaining's rule for sample collection, which is why Henry sued them in the first place, and why he beat the rap on a technicality.

Boy, with an attitude like yours "guilty until proven innocent" you'd make a good Bush appointee for Attorney General! :laugh:

But, you're just flat wrong on the facts here. In truth is it's not at ALL clear that the NFL violated their CBA. The legal issue is whether they were allowed under the CBA to insist that if Henry wanted to have his agent witness the sample test, Henry had to designate an independent agent, not affiliated with a lab. They notified Henry of a list of approved agents. Henry refused and insisted on certifying his own agent who WAS affiliated with a lab, allegedly in violation of the relevant CBA provisions. The league went ahead with the test without his agent being present. There's no indication that the absence of Henry's agent had anything to do with the test validity or that anything other than proper procedures were followed, or that the presence of Henry's agent would have led to a different result.

There was never a court ruling on whether the NFL was justified in acting as they did, but if the CBA did prohibit the player from using certain affiliated agents, as the NFL Commissioner's Office insisted it did, then the league action was justified in prohibiting Henry's agent from the procedure.

In short, Henry's legal case may not have been particularly strong on that point. I could make Henry's counter-arguments, but the league could very well have won in court. But, what would that have gotten them? At best it's a side issue compared to the merits of whether Henry was guilty.

The real evidence that forced the league's hand was the multiple negative tests before and after, including hair samples that are more accurate than urine samples, plus the lie detector test that all consistently indicated that he was innocent. They had a bunch of tests that were completely negative, and one test that was marginally positive. Under those circumstances it's obvious that the positive test was wrong. It was barely positive anyway, so that could easily have been a false positive.

It would have been a public relations disaster for the league to ban Henry under these circumstances, and would undoubtedly have led to labor troubles with the Player's Association. Plus, it was just painfully obvious that majority of the evidence was that he wasn't guilty. So, they backed down. They look like they're not biased against the player when he's got the facts on his side, but the exception proves the rule. The word goes out that if you ARE guilty and they have good evidence, don't expect any leniency.


As far as players like Martinez and Stephen Harris, and others that STNZD has called 'SCRUBS', this may be true, but that is also an easy conclusion to make, because if you are wrong on those players, you simply say, 'Well, they were street Free Agents, so what were the odds?'...but that is exactly the point. That is what separates good scouting depts from bad ones. You have to be able to pick up productive players off the scrap heap, because there are players to be had, and you don't have 10 first round draft picks every year to fill your roster with...and even if you did, you would still have your share of Marcus Nash's..

The point isn't whether the Broncos can occasionally find someone to fill out their roster on the scrap heap. They can and must. But, those players should not be the ones you count on to be your #2 WR. The odds are just too long. They need to use either a proven FA or a draft pick to fill that #2 WR spot.

So, even if Martinez might become more than a scrub, you can't COUNT on it happening.

You see the Patriots sometimes find an undrafted FA and he winds up a starter. But their lineup isn't dominated by such players! Most of them are draft picks, and an occasional star FA (Adelius Thomas, Junior Seau).

The problem with the Broncos is that too much of their lineup is composed of desperately throwing undistinguished FAs into starting roles, not because they're particularly good, but because they just don't have anybody better.

Examples: OL, Eric Pears and WR Martinez, DT Kenny Peterson.

broncolee
01-31-2008, 12:10 PM
DeSean Jackson is ranked 10th overall by Scouts,Inc and reportedly has 4.33 speed. He's 6'0" 179 lbs.

Malcolm Kelly is ranked 13th overall and reportedly has 4.5 speed. He's 6'4" 217 lbs.

Scouts, Inc doesn't currently have any analysis posted for either one, but they appear to be two receivers that could be worth the #12 pick.

If the Broncos address the offense in the first round, I hope it's either Clady or Baker at tackle.

BroncoKazuki
01-31-2008, 03:41 PM
DeSean Jackson is ranked 10th overall by Scouts,Inc and reportedly has 4.33 speed. He's 6'0" 179 lbs.

Malcolm Kelly is ranked 13th overall and reportedly has 4.5 speed. He's 6'4" 217 lbs.

Scouts, Inc doesn't currently have any analysis posted for either one, but they appear to be two receivers that could be worth the #12 pick.

If the Broncos address the offense in the first round, I hope it's either Clady or Baker at tackle.


yea cus we all know those players can come in and be super stars in a ZBS where those two players dont really play in a ZBS type system. :rolleyes:

It takes a half a year to a full year to fully get down the Zone Blocking scheme. Baker I think in the USC plays man to man, and Clady is raw.
The only person who can come in and play well at the ZBS is the top Rated OT in the draft in Jake Long. Yea we have a shot to get the best OT in the draft... NOT ! :coffee:

broncolee
01-31-2008, 03:57 PM
yea cus we all know those players can come in and be super stars in a ZBS where those two players dont really play in a ZBS type system. :rolleyes:

It takes a half a year to a full year to fully get down the Zone Blocking scheme. Baker I think in the USC plays man to man, and Clady is raw.
The only person who can come in and play well at the ZBS is the top Rated OT in the draft in Jake Long. Yea we have a shot to get the best OT in the draft... NOT ! :coffee:

Clady and Baker have both been described as players that can fit the zone blocking scheme. They don't need to be super stars from day one, but they would most likely be better than what we have. The reason I would like to see them take Clady or Baker is because I would like them to draft more talented players for the line. The current line can't pass block worth a damn in obvious passing situations. Getting better talent on the line would probably fix that problem.

:P

stnzed
01-31-2008, 04:02 PM
yea cus we all know those players can come in and be super stars in a ZBS where those two players dont really play in a ZBS type system. :rolleyes:

It takes a half a year to a full year to fully get down the Zone Blocking scheme. Baker I think in the USC plays man to man, and Clady is raw.
The only person who can come in and play well at the ZBS is the top Rated OT in the draft in Jake Long. Yea we have a shot to get the best OT in the draft... NOT ! :coffee:


Who cares if they play in a ZBS in college? Or how long it takes to learn it?

The ZBS is slowly getting on my nerves, if players like Clady and Joe Thomas and D'Brickashaw Ferguson can't play in this system than there is something wrong with the system.

If the best athletes at a position can't play in your system then I say F' the system, because the Ryan Harris' have far more limitations than then the Walter Jones'.

If this is how the Broncos think then they are stupid, because there is no way you could convince me that Walter Jones couldn't dominate in any system.

Btw, Clady is the better athlete between him and Long......

BroncoKazuki
01-31-2008, 04:07 PM
Who cares if they play in a ZBS in college? Or how long it takes to learn it?

The ZBS is slowly getting on my nerves, if players like Clady and Joe Thomas and D'Brickashaw Ferguson can't play in this system than there is something wrong with the system.

If the best athletes at a position can't play in your system then I say F' the system, because the Ryan Harris' have far more limitations than then the Walter Jones'.

If this is how the Broncos think then they are stupid, because there is no way you could convince me that Walter Jones couldn't dominate in any system......

I do agree that Harris was probably the poorest choice for an OT done by Shanny, but right now if we can nail both in the 1st round. Right now that Dallas trade looks tempting since it can give us both an OT and RB in a single shot.

At least give some competitions towards Harris. There are some OT's I do like in the draft that can come in and beat out Harris. Still it doesnt mean we'll have to spend the 1st pick in the draft on an OT.

stnzed
01-31-2008, 04:15 PM
I do agree that Harris was probably the poorest choice for an OT done by Shanny, but right now if we can nail both in the 1st round. Right now that Dallas trade looks tempting since it can give us both an OT and RB in a single shot.

At least give some competitions towards Harris. There are some OT's I do like in the draft that can come in and beat out Harris. Still it doesnt mean we'll have to spend the 1st pick in the draft on an OT.


Given the choice between either Clady/Williams or a RB AND OT, I'd take the quality over quantity......

BroncoKazuki
01-31-2008, 04:29 PM
Given the choice between either Clady/Williams or a RB AND OT, I'd take the quality over quantity......

then what happens for say Baker lands in the 25-30th spot

and Mendenhall is still at the 19-22nd spot.

We'd have a prime chance to grab both of them.

Plus I also watched how Cousins played in the Senior bowl, the only thing I have a slight problem with is his kick step when he plays OT, but that can be overcome with good coaching and some more experience. Plus Cousins comes with a double bonus of being great as a OG on both sides of the ball. So i can actually see us drafting two OT's with one OT that can play OG as well.

Witch makes perfect sense if you think about it, we lost Nalen and Halminton during the year the line went into a spiral and with some good OT/OG prospects I think Shanny may wait to pull the trigger until round 2-4 where those good OT/OG prospects are sitting.

richardthebronco
01-31-2008, 04:41 PM
The very fact that the Broncos continue to keep WR's like Glenn Martinez on their roster year after year proves that they just don't get it.

This is a position that they just don't know how to draft for, and don't give me Brandon Marshall, that was luck. A broken clock is right twice a day! If they'd known he'd be this good at WR they would have drafted him sooner and NEVER considered the possibility of moving him to TE.

If drafting RB's is the Broncos strength, then drafting WR's is the Broncos Achilles heel. Trade or free agency is the Broncos only hope, imo, not players like Glenn Martinez...... I agree WR has been a consistent draft problem,they have to address that or marshall will have trouble getting off the line nxt year.i think this draft is make or break for shanahan and sundquist, if the broncos do poorly and come in next year at 7-9 or 6-10. Both will be OUT THE DOOR.:coffee:

stnzed
01-31-2008, 04:46 PM
I agree WR has been a consistent draft problem,they have to address that or marshall will have trouble getting off the line nxt year.i think this draft is make or break for shanahan and sundquist, if the broncos do poorly and come in next year at 7-9 or 6-10. Both will be OUT THE DOOR.:coffee:


Unfortunately for you, to hear Pat Bowlen talk, that's just not true......