PDA

View Full Version : RB situation next year, who goes, who comes and who stays?



Zealander
01-31-2008, 11:35 AM
Well say Shannahan and co decide to go about the route of spending our #1 on a RB of the future. I think the way to go is trade down a few spots... maybe number 18 or so to be safe. Then we could pick up another draftee and address one more of our many needs. We pick up either Stewart or Mendenhall, both are studs and could achieve a lot in our system.

Well then what? We have Henry, Young, Hall and Back X:)(Stewart, Mendenhall). Travis's trade value is very low right now, we won't be able to get much if anything for him. A cut seems possible, cause we're paying him a lot of money. Take a look at Selvin Young. He made some noise last year, I would think we could get a little value from him. Trading Selvin would give us Back X, Henry and Hall (I really like the way hall runs, I think we could develop him into something dangerous in the return game).

Overall drafting a back will give us good depth next year, even if (kocking on my desk) the injury bug hits us.

So hopefully we'd look something like this;

Stewardenhall, Henry and Hall.

Stewardenhall, Young and Hall. - I like this set up, but value may force us to go with Henry.

I'm starting to warm up to the idea of a premier back, and spending that extra acquired pick and our second rounder both on linemen. Thoughts guys?

bjoli198
01-31-2008, 11:52 AM
there will be no RB drafted in 1st round by denver!!
LT,LJ or anyone else couldnīt run for 1000 yards with the OL that played last season, thatīs why there will be OL for 1st round, or perhaps DL, because LT could run for plenty yards against us through the middle...

BF
01-31-2008, 12:02 PM
Draft Mendenhall, keep Young, Hall and even Bell if necessary. Cut Henry. Draft OL & DL in 2nd & 4th rds, Invest in at least one if not two in those areas through free agentcy.

The|Snake#16
01-31-2008, 12:19 PM
there will be no RB drafted in 1st round by denver!!
LT,LJ or anyone else couldnīt run for 1000 yards with the OL that played last season, thatīs why there will be OL for 1st round, or perhaps DL, because LT could run for plenty yards against us through the middle...

Our line really wasn't bad at all, mainly just in pass protection they struggled. Also, with Nalen and Hamilton coming back I don't see our running game as deprived in anyway, an elite tailback would complement Cutler & Co. perfectly.

kratos_godofwar
01-31-2008, 12:26 PM
there will be no RB drafted in 1st round by denver!!
LT,LJ or anyone else couldnīt run for 1000 yards with the OL that played last season, thatīs why there will be OL for 1st round, or perhaps DL, because LT could run for plenty yards against us through the middle...
And yet Henry, Selvin, and Hall all did quite remarkably well. Only problem was that none of them could stay healthy. Our line had bad pass protection and no push when we needed it. If we're running the ball from the our own 20, then we will have sucess, but if we're running from our opp. 2 yd line. We aren't going to get it in unless Mike Bell leaps over them or Henry plows over a few defenders. So getting a Stewart or Mendenhall would be a great boost.

Zealander
01-31-2008, 01:00 PM
there will be no RB drafted in 1st round by denver!!
LT,LJ or anyone else couldnīt run for 1000 yards with the OL that played last season, thatīs why there will be OL for 1st round, or perhaps DL, because LT could run for plenty yards against us through the middle...

Woah there bud. Selvin Young rushed for 730 yards behind that "terrible" line last season. T Henry himself put up nearly 700. I seem to recall him having around 500 just four games into the season. Our line is real good for run protection, we just need to beef it up for Jay. While I do agree that OL and DL are of bigger needs, it may just turn out that a first round RB will help us the most.

FinNasty
01-31-2008, 01:28 PM
Why spend a 1st round pick on Mendenhall or Stewart if you can get Kevin Smith in the 2nd? Of all the backs in this draft... he is the best fit for your system...

Keys to a RB in your system? Vision, patience, and cut back ability...

Smith has the best vision in this class (and that is no slight on some of the other RB's vision)... and has great patience, burst, agility, and cut back ability...

If you put 24k in your zone blocking system... he will be considered the best RB in this class once all is said and done...


Reunite him with Marshall... it will be the best decision you'll ever make...

stnzed
01-31-2008, 01:40 PM
Because Kevin Smith has a million miles on his legs......

lancane
01-31-2008, 02:29 PM
Because Kevin Smith has a million miles on his legs......

Kevin Smith has 5,123 all purpose overall yards on him, which is quite a bit, Jonathan Stewart has 3,225 all purpose overall yards on him. And Rashard Mendenhall has 3,103 all purpose overall yards on his legs...plus in their career numbers beyong rushing and returns, Rashard Mendenhall has 564 of his yards receiving with an average of 9.56 yards per catch, Stewart has 334 yards receiving averaging 6.82 yards per catch, Smith has 444 receiving yards averaging 8.0 yards per catch...

Rashard Mendenhall has 27 touchdowns on 447 touches, that is a collegiate best of a TD every 16.5 touches, Stewart has 31 touchdowns on 565 carries so every 18.26 carries, Smith has 46 touchdowns on a staggering 960 touches so he scores every 20.2 touches! Smith's career yards per carry is only 5.17, Stewart's is 5.6 yards per carry and Mendenhall leads above all three with 6.54 yards per carry.

Mendenhall scores more often, has less ware physically then either Smith or Stewart, better touchdown to touch ratio and better overall ypc in both rushing and receiving...

:cheers:

FinNasty
01-31-2008, 02:59 PM
Because Kevin Smith has a million miles on his legs......

No he doesnt?

He is only a junior. Had he stayed his senior season, I'd agree with you.

Plus, he didnt get NEAR the workload his first 2 seasons as he did this past year...

FinNasty
01-31-2008, 03:23 PM
Do you really feel there is that great of a gap between Mendenhall and Smith? I like Mendenhall, he is a great back. But if you can put Smith in your system for a 2nd... I see it as a no brainer...

Smith is going to be one hell of a steal in the 2nd... especially if he ends up on one of the teams that use a ZBS...

Zealander
01-31-2008, 03:29 PM
Do you really feel there is that great of a gap between Mendenhall and Smith? I like Mendenhall, he is a great back. But if you can put Smith in your system for a 2nd... I see it as a no brainer...

Smith is going to be one hell of a steal in the 2nd... especially if he ends up on one of the teams that use a ZBS...

I like Smith for a lot of reasons... He's quick, he's big and he does have good vision. I would still have to say that Stewart and Mendenhall are more complete backs, but you bring up a good point. I haven't given him too much thought in our system. There are so many possible ways for our draft to go it's makin me crazy :goofy:. No matter how people rip Shanny I really like how he drafts, These last two years should prove to be great. We can only hope for another to match.

Hm.... :coffee:

stnzed
01-31-2008, 03:32 PM
No he doesnt?

He is only a junior. Had he stayed his senior season, I'd agree with you.

Plus, he didnt get NEAR the workload his first 2 seasons as he did this past year...

Smith has more career carries than Stewart and Mendenhall combined.

Smith 905.
Mendenhall 388.
Stewart 516.

I've seen them all play, and I'll be thoroughly disappointed if Denver chose Smith over Stewart or Mendenhall.

Maybe the Phins will take him......

FinNasty
01-31-2008, 03:36 PM
I like Smith for a lot of reasons... He's quick, he's big and he does have good vision. I would still have to say that Stewart and Mendenhall are more complete backs, but you bring up a good point. I haven't given him too much thought in our system. There are so many possible ways for our draft to go it's makin me crazy :goofy:. No matter how people rip Shanny I really like how he drafts, These last two years should prove to be great. We can only hope for another to match.

Hm.... :coffee:

I will tell you right now... that if 24k ends up on a team that uses a ZBS... he will be considered the best back in the class when all is said and done...

stnzed
01-31-2008, 03:38 PM
I will tell you right now... that if 24k ends up on a team that uses a ZBS... he will be considered the best back in the class when all is said and done...

What if McFadden goes to the Cowboys?

You're not seriously...:confused:....

stnzed
01-31-2008, 03:40 PM
Mendenhall and Stewart already play in a ZBS and they're two of the best backs in the draft......

FinNasty
01-31-2008, 03:44 PM
Smith has more career carries than Stewart and Mendenhall combined.

Smith 905.
Mendenhall 388.
Stewart 516.

I've seen them all play, and I'll be thoroughly disappointed if Denver chose Smith over Stewart or Mendenhall.

Maybe the Phins will take him......

God I hope so...



Its not that Smith has had that many carries...

Its that Mendenhall and Stewart havent had many carries... especially Mendenhall. I mean, the most carries Mendenhall had before this year was 78. 78?!?


Kevin has proven that he can carry the rock and be the workhorse of an offense. Thats a good thing. The amount of carries hes had shows that he can carry the rock... but b/c he left as a junior, the wear and tear isnt too great.

Mile_High_Kiwi
01-31-2008, 03:44 PM
Kevin Smith has 5,123 all purpose overall yards on him, which is quite a bit

I think we can all manipulate stats to make our points…;)

Most Consecutive Rushes Without Losing a Fumble: Season (with one game remaining in 2007) - 415 -Kevin Smith, UCF 2007

In regards to wear and tear from his 5000+ all purpose yards, Ricky Williams held the record for most all purpose yards in NCAA history with 7,206 yards, (before DeAngelo Williams broke the record) and until his ‘problems’ he had a pretty productive start to his career, gaining 6,354 rushing yards in his first 5 seasons, including 1853 in 2002.

I don't think Smith should be discounted because he had a high workload.

FinNasty
01-31-2008, 03:49 PM
Mendenhall and Stewart already play in a ZBS and they're two of the best backs in the draft......

They are definatly 2 of the best backs in the draft. And I like them both... ESPECIALLY Stewart. The kid is going to be a stud...


I didnt say that they wouldnt work in your ZBS... dont get me wrong. Both would be great backs for you. I'm not slamming them...


My point is, is that if you put Kevin in a ZBS with a good OLine like yours(keep in mind that Kevin's line was a CUSA line that were 1-2 star recruits, yet he still dominated a team like Texas, whose Dline is far better than our OLine) that he will explode in the NFL...


And I was saying that Kevin is an even better fit for a ZBS than Mendenhall and Stewart(that is NOT a rip on either of those 2 backs)...

lancane
01-31-2008, 04:36 PM
I think we can all manipulate stats to make our points…;)

Most Consecutive Rushes Without Losing a Fumble: Season (with one game remaining in 2007) - 415 -Kevin Smith, UCF 2007

In regards to wear and tear from his 5000+ all purpose yards, Ricky Williams held the record for most all purpose yards in NCAA history with 7,206 yards, (before DeAngelo Williams broke the record) and until his ‘problems’ he had a pretty productive start to his career, gaining 6,354 rushing yards in his first 5 seasons, including 1853 in 2002.

I don't think Smith should be discounted because he had a high workload.

I did not manipulate anything...I guess you will tell me Smith is a better halfback, though he is less known for big gains and more for tough yards and Mendenhall is known for both. UCF also has a weaker schedule, sorry but true...Mendenhall played against the top two defensive units in the country and ran all over them, including nearly gaining double the yards that Stewart had against USC. Who was the best defense Smith played against? South Florida which is the 28th ranked defense? Texas the 52nd rated defense? The answer is Mississippi St. who was ranked 21st overall rated defense.

Mendenhall played against Three of the top defenses in the country in Penn St., USC and Ohio St., playing even a few others if you count the top twenty defensively. Stewart even played against better competition, and it might not matter which is true...it still shows the capability that Mendenhall and Stewart have to play tough defenses, but even Cutler who came from a weak program played against top competition!

Bronkster
01-31-2008, 05:18 PM
The Broncos will not draft a running back in the first round. That is unless McFadden falls all the way to twelve. There is no other way they would get a running back in the first round. Too many other holes to fill...

Q_Ball22
01-31-2008, 05:19 PM
I think the point he is trying to make about Smith has to do with him be able to be had in the 2nd rd. Where as the other 2 guys would have to be had in the 1st Rd. I think his points are valid and make a lot of sense to me. If you go by bang for buck Smith in the 2nd has more bang then those 2 guys in the 1st, as to if hes a better nfl back the wont be known for a few years.

Dean
01-31-2008, 05:37 PM
Even with the ungodly amount of injuries we had to the O-line, Rbs, and TEs the Broncos still rushed for 1957 yards on the season. I see the front office holdin' their cards. I don't see either a first or second round RB.

lancane
01-31-2008, 05:42 PM
Even with the ungodly amount of injuries we had to the O-line, Rbs, and TEs the Broncos still rushed for 1957 yards on the season. I see the front office holdin' their cards. I don't see either a first or second round RB.

Yeah and then like the rest of the fans when it all happens again you will be cursing the fact we just kept what we had! I guarantee everyone saying nay right now to a top back if everything holds true with Henry and Young will be finally shouting to get a top back...unfortunatley the next class is weaker, so we will have a very slim chance! And then we will be doing it again the next year and again...that is unfortunatley may be the only way some learn the value of ability and capability.

slick7
01-31-2008, 05:55 PM
Yeah and then like the rest of the fans when it all happens again you will be cursing the fact we just kept what we had! I guarantee everyone saying nay right now to a top back if everything holds true with Henry and Young will be finally shouting to get a top back...unfortunatley the next class is weaker, so we will have a very slim chance! And then we will be doing it again the next year and again...that is unfortunatley may be the only way some learn the value of ability and capability.

I wont cuss... OK maybe I will.

This is all based on Hamilton and Nalen playing their best, and the others around them improving, also sustaining no injuries.

I think the physical teams in the AFC, Chargers, Jags, Patriots, Steelers, their front seven will beat us up, like they always do, forcing us to pass, and then what?

Rely on Harris, Pears, and Graham to keep Jay's jersey clean?

I'd love a franchise back too. I'm sure Dean would as well. I guess I see the other holes on the team as more important at the moment.

Maybe he does get your guy, does the best he can, and addresses the trenches next draft. To me, that is working backwards, but you never know.

stnzed
01-31-2008, 06:04 PM
Even with the ungodly amount of injuries we had to the O-line, Rbs, and TEs the Broncos still rushed for 1957 yards on the season. I see the front office holdin' their cards. I don't see either a first or second round RB.


On the other hand, if they draft another RB in the later rounds they'll be drafting another RB in a year or two......Again! Just like they always do!

If the Broncos do intend to "Build through the draft", they can't keep drafting a RB every single year.

RB is one of the few positions they draft well, and getting a 1st round talent will go a long way towards building continuity. Henry is not reliable, Young is not a starter and Hall is 3rd string for a reason.

Since there isn't much hope for getting a DT (Or DE for that matter), nor is there much hope that Denver will all of a sudden change the way they draft OLineman, RB is the position I hope they focus on in round one.

Because they're gonna have to get a RB sooner or later, might as well be now.....

lancane
01-31-2008, 06:16 PM
I wont cuss... OK maybe I will.

This is all based on Hamilton and Nalen playing their best, and the others around them improving, also sustaining no injuries.

I think the physical teams in the AFC, Chargers, Jags, Patriots, Steelers, their front seven will beat us up, like they always do, forcing us to pass, and then what?

Rely on Harris, Pears, and Graham to keep Jay's jersey clean?

I'd love a franchise back too. I'm sure Dean would as well. I guess I see the other holes on the team as more important at the moment.

Maybe he does get your guy, does the best he can, and addresses the trenches next draft. To me, that is working backwards, but you never know.

But our line has always been better run blockers then pass blockers, that has been true for years, and as Dean pointed out we had near 2,000 yards with all the players we have, but that has to do with the halfbacks how? If we got 2,000 yards behind a line which had a lackluster Lepsis, Nalen and Hamilton both gone, then with them back the line is already better...but the backs are not, Henry and Young have always been injury proned athletes. So how is improving our line going to effect two backs who are already questionable?

:confused:

They are not great at pass blocking, but against the run we still had a good line this year, so they do not share the blame for the downed backs who are unhealthy, that remains on the backs! Our line will be immediatley improved with Nalen and Hamilton, but then we add another rookie at tackle, but what happens when Young and Henry are injured again? Hall runs with the rock, sorry but he is not that impressive. If we keep Henry I hope no one expects us to get too far in the post-season...even with an improved offensive line.

BroncoKazuki
01-31-2008, 06:20 PM
I wont cuss... OK maybe I will.

This is all based on Hamilton and Nalen playing their best, and the others around them improving, also sustaining no injuries.

I think the physical teams in the AFC, Chargers, Jags, Patriots, Steelers, their front seven will beat us up, like they always do, forcing us to pass, and then what?

Rely on Harris, Pears, and Graham to keep Jay's jersey clean?

I'd love a franchise back too. I'm sure Dean would as well. I guess I see the other holes on the team as more important at the moment.

Maybe he does get your guy, does the best he can, and addresses the trenches next draft. To me, that is working backwards, but you never know.

When taking a test dont you always do the easy questions first before the hard ones :cheers:.

RB is an easy question

so is WR
so we get those out of the way we can focus on the rest in the rest of this years draft and next years and the draft in 2010. Witch will net us still a good team in 2011 when we decide to make a final push for it all while still being competitive up to that point.

Max Power
01-31-2008, 06:20 PM
I think it will be Henry/Young/Hall.

stnzed
01-31-2008, 06:25 PM
Imo, those rushing stats are Fools Gold, they have been for about 8 years.

The redzone is where drives go to die for the Broncos!

Drafting Stewart would improve what little ability the Broncos have to score inside the 20-10-5 yard line......

lancane
01-31-2008, 06:27 PM
Imo, those rushing stats are Fools Gold, they have been for about 8 years.

The redzone is where drives of to die for the Broncos!

Drafting Stewart would improve what little ability the Broncos have to score inside the 20-10-5 yard line......

So would Mendenhall Stnzed! ;)

stnzed
01-31-2008, 06:35 PM
So would Mendenhall Stnzed! ;)


He'll do just fine, too...:D...

megg
01-31-2008, 06:38 PM
Yeah and then like the rest of the fans when it all happens again you will be cursing the fact we just kept what we had! I guarantee everyone saying nay right now to a top back if everything holds true with Henry and Young will be finally shouting to get a top back...unfortunatley the next class is weaker, so we will have a very slim chance! And then we will be doing it again the next year and again...that is unfortunatley may be the only way some learn the value of ability and capability.

Agree! I think RB, WR & maybe LB are the strongest positions in this year's draft and if you are weak at that position you need to jump at the opportunity, do to the class being much weaker in next years draft do to juniors coming out early.

slick7
01-31-2008, 06:59 PM
But our line has always been better run blockers then pass blockers, that has been true for years, and as Dean pointed out we had near 2,000 yards with all the players we have, but that has to do with the halfbacks how? If we got 2,000 yards behind a line which had a lackluster Lepsis, Nalen and Hamilton both gone, then with them back the line is already better...but the backs are not, Henry and Young have always been injury proned athletes. So how is improving our line going to effect two backs who are already questionable?

:confused:

They are not great at pass blocking, but against the run we still had a good line this year, so they do not share the blame for the downed backs who are unhealthy, that remains on the backs! Our line will be immediatley improved with Nalen and Hamilton, but then we add another rookie at tackle, but what happens when Young and Henry are injured again? Hall runs with the rock, sorry but he is not that impressive. If we keep Henry I hope no one expects us to get too far in the post-season...even with an improved offensive line.

I'd love to have a RB too. I just think the priority should be keeping Jay on his feet, not on his rear.

Even with our near 2000 yards team rushing...

Against the physical teams,our o line just got beat up, we didn't have 100 yd rushers. Cutler ran for his life in most of those games. We got killed by the Chargers twice(6 total points scored), the Jag's 11 point win in our house was a physical beatdown(we scored 14 points), we were lucky to beat the Steelers(31 points played pretty good offensively, although 1 TD was Crowder's).

Maybe I'm trying to prove my point and yours. :laugh: Sounds like, with a top flight back, the results would be different.

Really, I think they're both team needs but line play is more important in my book. You get your franchise QB, then LT, then a RB. We can survive with the trio we have now for another year. Travis's contract isn't going to disappear, and I doubt he can afford to restructure no matter how"sorry" he is.

There's just too many positions that need improvement for this team to do it all in one off season IMO, and I rather see Jay healthy. Pears and Harris starting just scares me.

Who knows, maybe Denver figures out a way to wiggle around Travis and Javon's contracts, drafts one of your RB's and he turns out good enough to run against those physical fronts with the line we already have, in turn taking the pressure off Jay.

Or we draft Owen Schmitt with a 3rd that we pick up somewhere, and he stays in and blows up all blitzers in a single bound.

The defensive line(they got dominated by physical lines too) I'll leave for another time and place since this is about RB's.

Man, it's not even February. April seems so far away.

lancane
01-31-2008, 07:10 PM
I'd love to have a RB too. I just think the priority should be keeping Jay on his feet, not on his rear.

Even with our near 2000 yards team rushing...

Against the physical teams,our o line just got beat up, we didn't have 100 yd rushers. Cutler ran for his life in most of those games. We got killed by the Chargers twice(6 total points scored), the Jag's 11 point win in our house was a physical beatdown(we scored 14 points), we were lucky to beat the Steelers(31 points played pretty good offensively, although 1 TD was Crowder's).

Maybe I'm trying to prove my point and yours. :laugh: Sounds like, with a top flight back, the results would be different.

Really, I think they're both team needs but line play is more important in my book. You get your franchise QB, then LT, then a RB. We can survive with the trio we have now for another year. Travis's contract isn't going to disappear, and I doubt he can afford to restructure no matter how"sorry" he is.

There's just too many positions that need improvement for this team to do it all in one off season IMO, and I rather see Jay healthy. Pears and Harris starting just scares me.

Who knows, maybe Denver figures out a way to wiggle around Travis and Javon's contracts, drafts one of your RB's and he turns out good enough to run against those physical fronts with the line we already have, in turn taking the pressure off Jay.

Or we draft Owen Schmitt with a 3rd that we pick up somewhere, and he stays in and blows up all blitzers in a single bound.

The defensive line(they got dominated by physical lines too) I'll leave for another time and place since this is about RB's.

Man, it's not even February. April seems so far away.

If the draft plays out how I hope, then I think the majority of the fans would be happy. Because I think Denver will trade the 12th overall pick to Detroit for Shaun Rogers, the 15th overall pick and likely their 6th round pick, giving third round pick value for Rogers. Denver I think will trade Javon Walker and likely our 3rd Round pick next year to either Buffalo, Minnesota, Miami, or Atlanta for a second round pick and likely we will trade Foxworth for another pick, when it is said and done another 4th likely...

But on day one, I think we will have gotten Shaun Rodgers, Rashard Mendenhall, Carl Nicks and Earl Bennett. We improve both lines with good additions, and replace both Henry and Walker, simply day two will be almost all defense and special teams IMHO if that happened.

Zealander
01-31-2008, 07:21 PM
If the draft plays out how I hope, then I think the majority of the fans would be happy. Because I think Denver will trade the 12th overall pick to Detroit for Shaun Rogers, the 15th overall pick and likely their 6th round pick, giving third round pick value for Rogers. Denver I think will trade Javon Walker and likely our 3rd Round pick next year to either Buffalo, Minnesota, Miami, or Atlanta for a second round pick and likely we will trade Foxworth for another pick, when it is said and done another 4th likely...

But on day one, I think we will have gotten Shaun Rodgers, Rashard Mendenhall, Carl Nicks and Earl Bennett. We improve both lines with good additions, and replace both Henry and Walker, simply day two will be almost all defense and special teams IMHO if that happened.

One can only hope Shanahan can pull off that miracle. I'd be just as happy with the draft in your sig.

Up until recently I would have sided with you. Just face our most important needs first and foremost, being the offensive and defensive lines. But it seems to me we can get a quality tackle in the second round... Protecting Jay is just about the most important thing we can do to determine long term success for our franchise. But isn't that exactly why we should also spend our #1 on a kick ass half back for our future? We can't keep playing around with these late round picks. Realistically Stewart, Smith and Mendenhall all have the oppurtunity to put up very healthy careers if they became denver broncos.

Having to respect a back like that would set up our pass, and be a huge threat in the red zone. To be serious contenders we need to address all of our o + dline, WR, S, and halfback positions. It can be done... But we need to build through the draft. That's why I'm starting to think we do just get this pick out of the way and pick up our halfback of the future.

stnzed
01-31-2008, 07:24 PM
If the draft plays out how I hope, then I think the majority of the fans would be happy. Because I think Denver will trade the 12th overall pick to Detroit for Shaun Rogers, the 15th overall pick and likely their 6th round pick, giving third round pick value for Rogers. Denver I think will trade Javon Walker and likely our 3rd Round pick next year to either Buffalo, Minnesota, Miami, or Atlanta for a second round pick and likely we will trade Foxworth for another pick, when it is said and done another 4th likely...

But on day one, I think we will have gotten Shaun Rodgers, Rashard Mendenhall, Carl Nicks and Earl Bennett. We improve both lines with good additions, and replace both Henry and Walker, simply day two will be almost all defense and special teams IMHO if that happened.


Carl Nicks? Now that would be just fine with me, Cane, but wouldn't he have to drop about 30lb's to be considered by the Broncos?......

broncobuss
01-31-2008, 07:26 PM
Mendenhall and Stewart already play in a ZBS and they're two of the best backs in the draft......

They play in the spread offense, very different than that of the one the broncos run. Kevin Smith is the better fit.

slick7
01-31-2008, 07:28 PM
If the draft plays out how I hope, then I think the majority of the fans would be happy. Because I think Denver will trade the 12th overall pick to Detroit for Shaun Rogers, the 15th overall pick and likely their 6th round pick, giving third round pick value for Rogers. Denver I think will trade Javon Walker and likely our 3rd Round pick next year to either Buffalo, Minnesota, Miami, or Atlanta for a second round pick and likely we will trade Foxworth for another pick, when it is said and done another 4th likely...

But on day one, I think we will have gotten Shaun Rodgers, Rashard Mendenhall, Carl Nicks and Earl Bennett. We improve both lines with good additions, and replace both Henry and Walker, simply day two will be almost all defense and special teams IMHO if that happened.

For the record, I think we stick with the backs we have.

Interesting. You're overvaluing Javon IMO. Teams know our situation, restructure or he's cut. They could do better with signing Berrian, Johnson, etc, without giving up draft position. I doubt they're worried about a bidding war over Javon Walker in free agency.

What happens to Travis and his contract?

broncos74310
01-31-2008, 07:31 PM
dont change anything. we payed big bucks for henry, and went through all lot this year. yeah it was his fault, but it fatored in his play. he was the leading rusher b4 all the allegations and injury, idk y evry1 wants to draft an RB in the first round, or draft one at all. selvin young aint bad either. and, half our startin o-line is coming back, so that will help.

BroncoKazuki
01-31-2008, 07:34 PM
For the record, I think we stick with the backs we have.

Interesting. You're overvaluing Javon IMO. Teams know our situation, restructure or he's cut. They could do better with signing Berrian, Johnson, etc, without giving up draft position. I doubt they're worried about a bidding war over Javon Walker in free agency.

What happens to Travis and his contract?

You also forget that Javon can bring in fans, Just how those who doubt Moss and T.O.

Remember how everyone thought Moss was washed up and how T.O was a joke yet they still produced while bringing in more fans for their teams.

When you look at it that way and have a chance to grab Javon and all you gotta do is trade away a pick Plus as a bonus he comes with extra picks. Then that makes it too hard to pass up because we can still offer him a contract that may be worth more then the contract he has by putting incentives all over it.

MHS
01-31-2008, 07:35 PM
1st round RB= 6-10 record

BroncoKazuki
01-31-2008, 07:38 PM
dont change anything. we payed big bucks for henry, and went through all lot this year. yeah it was his fault, but it fatored in his play. he was the leading rusher b4 all the allegations and injury, idk y evry1 wants to draft an RB in the first round, or draft one at all. selvin young aint bad either. and, half our startin o-line is coming back, so that will help.

your kinda wrong.

Henry keeps repeating his MO, he cannot stay healthy at all. Same with Young.

SO getting a back is really a no brainer.


We can restructure Henry to become a FB if he really wants to make amense, and if he does well or better at FB we can put more incentives. Maybe thats the problem with Henry, he sucks as a RB but maybe just maybe he'll accell as a FB instead.

slick7
01-31-2008, 07:42 PM
You also forget that Javon can bring in fans, Just how those who doubt Moss and T.O.

Remember how everyone thought Moss was washed up and how T.O was a joke yet they still produced while bringing in more fans for their teams.

When you look at it that way and have a chance to grab Javon and all you gotta do is trade away a pick Plus as a bonus he comes with extra picks. Then that makes it too hard to pass up because we can still offer him a contract that may be worth more then the contract he has by putting incentives all over it.

Neither TO or Randy were on there surgically repaired knee that possibly needs microfracture surgery either.

NFL teams don't really need to bring in fans, they make tons of money regardless. Winning football is the goal of every team not named the Raiders.

I'm really not sure what your second paragraph was trying to say.

BroncoKazuki
01-31-2008, 07:48 PM
Neither TO or Randy were on there surgically repaired knee that possibly needs microfracture surgery either.

NFL teams don't really need to bring in fans, they make tons of money regardless. Winning football is the goal of every team not named the Raiders.

I'm really not sure what your second paragraph was trying to say.


Yes but both were considered at the last legs of their Career before they went to those respective teams.


Still there are teams. Not many but there are teams that are desprate enough to bank on Javon. that I can somewhat see.




1st round RB= 6-10 record
Care to explain why :coffee:

lancane
01-31-2008, 07:51 PM
Carl Nicks? Now that would be just fine with me, Cane, but wouldn't he have to drop about 30lb's to be considered by the Broncos?......

Not really, he has very quick feet, he was a former defensive tackle and that depends on your feet as much, if not more then a zone scheme. Nicks would bring a beefy, athletic and still quick tackle to a team in need of both. The only reason he is a second round pick is because of how raw he is compared to several other tackles in the draft who have been main stays on their offensive lines.

lancane
01-31-2008, 07:59 PM
For the record, I think we stick with the backs we have.

Interesting. You're overvaluing Javon IMO. Teams know our situation, restructure or he's cut. They could do better with signing Berrian, Johnson, etc, without giving up draft position. I doubt they're worried about a bidding war over Javon Walker in free agency.

What happens to Travis and his contract?

Denver can also sit him...and do not think Shanahan wouldn't...lol. Hell worse would be to make him run routes all game without even a catch, that will raise his value! There are things the team can do, but by adding in a good pick next year, the team with the firepower to pull the trade would not have to get into a bidding war! And if I remember there were a whole bunch of people on here that refused to admit Plummer had trade value, and if he would have gone on to play we would have three 4th round picks this year, instead we still get a 7th, the trade I mentioned would basically be of third round value, 2/3rds for a 2nd, they get Javon who if he plays right as they want could be worth more and another pick next year and teams will be tempted.

I think we will wait till after june 1st to cut Henry, he is due some bonus, but by cutting him then the rest is spread instead of a bonus and over hit to the cap by cutting him now. Either way we have to pay him something...even though he is completely worth nothing. There is more value in Ramsey then in Henry at this time.

lancane
01-31-2008, 08:02 PM
1st round RB= 6-10 record

Yeah...I believe it, especially since it is an improvement over what we have and we went 7-9...if we get a first round halback I will bet anything that we go 9-7 or 10-6 easily.

stnzed
01-31-2008, 08:05 PM
Not really, he has very quick feet, he was a former defensive tackle and that depends on your feet as much, if not more then a zone scheme. Nicks would bring a beefy, athletic and still quick tackle to a team in need of both. The only reason he is a second round pick is because of how raw he is compared to several other tackles in the draft who have been main stays on their offensive lines.

I wish......

slick7
01-31-2008, 08:12 PM
Denver can also sit him...and do not think Shanahan wouldn't...lol. Hell worse would be to make him run routes all game without even a catch, that will raise his value! There are things the team can do, but by adding in a good pick next year, the team with the firepower to pull the trade would not have to get into a bidding war! And if I remember there were a whole bunch of people on here that refused to admit Plummer had trade value, and if he would have gone on to play we would have three 4th round picks this year, instead we still get a 7th, the trade I mentioned would basically be of third round value, 2/3rds for a 2nd, they get Javon who if he plays right as they want could be worth more and another pick next year and teams will be tempted.

I think we will wait till after june 1st to cut Henry, he is due some bonus, but by cutting him then the rest is spread instead of a bonus and over hit to the cap by cutting him now. Either way we have to pay him something...even though he is completely worth nothing. There is more value in Ramsey then in Henry at this time.
I don't doubt that Coach would sit him. I just don't think there'd be a bidding war of any kind.

Plummer had more trade value because he kept his mouth shut, and he was healthy.

Interesting points, wasn't trying to do anything other than pick a few brains, Mexico really isn't the place for talking Broncos football. :salute:

Dive conditions are great though, water temperature of 81 degrees. :goofy:

gyldenlove
01-31-2008, 08:38 PM
The best thing we can do is draft Jamaal Charles in the 2nd. If you gave Shanahan a drawing and asked him to draw the perfect NFL RB, he would draw a picture of Charles. He is build just right for a RB. He has really good speed and explosiveness. He lacks a bit in the patience department, but not more than it can be salvaged, he is an average blocker, but we have Selvin Young to do that.

lancane
01-31-2008, 08:41 PM
The best thing we can do is draft Jamaal Charles in the 2nd. If you gave Shanahan a drawing and asked him to draw the perfect NFL RB, he would draw a picture of Charles. He is build just right for a RB. He has really good speed and explosiveness. He lacks a bit in the patience department, but not more than it can be salvaged, he is an average blocker, but we have Selvin Young to do that.

:confused: Ummm...that we already have, we need an all around halback which Mendenhall, Stewart and Jones already are or nearer to then the latter graded backs...if we go with any halfback in the second the only real option I feel is Tashard Choice, but only if...I would rather have Mendenhall then all the others though!

:cheers:

The Dyna$ty
01-31-2008, 08:58 PM
The Broncos will not draft a running back in the first round. That is unless McFadden falls all the way to twelve. There is no other way they would get a running back in the first round. Too many other holes to fill...

I would love for Shanny to pass on McFadden if hes there and if they want a RB to go with Mendenhall or Stewart, McFadden isn't quite the RB those 2 are but he is a nice skill player, he mores more outside the tackles, north south running backs are where its at in the NFL.

Dean
01-31-2008, 09:13 PM
Yeah and then like the rest of the fans when it all happens again you will be cursing the fact we just kept what we had! I guarantee everyone saying nay right now to a top back if everything holds true with Henry and Young will be finally shouting to get a top back...unfortunatley the next class is weaker, so we will have a very slim chance! And then we will be doing it again the next year and again...that is unfortunatley may be the only way some learn the value of ability and capability.

Our 122 yard per game rushing average is exactly chopped liver. It was deceiving because we did it with three backs instead of with one and with an injured and inexperienced offensive line. Even if Mendenhall is what you keep preaching that he is, can he get over 1600 yards per season? That is an extremely good season for an NFL running back and even it would only be an insignificant increase over what we are already getting from our three headed tandem.

If you want to talk about the value of ability and capability. The Broncos are producing in the running game. The biggest drawback is in short yardage. IMO that has much more to do with our O-line and FB. You might want to look at those positions if want more ability and capability. This draft is deep in both.

You seem to keep ignoring the other side of the coin. That being our inability and incapacity to stop the opponents running game. You can win if the other team scores more points.

No. . . I won't be cursing the fact that we kept the running backs that we had. Every choice that is made does not turn out to be a positive one and you are limited by money and picks as to what can be done. Consequently, it makes more sense to me to take the player(s) that have the greatest likelihood to cause the greatest improvement in the team. A first rate RB though offering improvement in my eyes is not the first priority. There is much more room to improve the team at D-tackle, O-tackle, LB, safety, and fullback than there is at running back.

The Experience
01-31-2008, 09:27 PM
I really like the idea of going DT or OL in the 1st and get Smith in the 2nd but Mendenhall and Stewart would be great too


I just dont think Shanny can afford to not take advantage of this deep class for HB

The Dyna$ty
01-31-2008, 09:59 PM
Anyone doubting Stewart has more than just power he has speed and agility, here check this video Stewart jumps over players from Michigan when he runs the ball

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm0jCiLv9Ds (highlights vs michigan) 15 carries for 111 yds in this game

0:22 jumps over Michigan player than pounds his way in for a TD.

2:05 takes the hand off and jumps over another player and gets some yards after contact.

FinNasty
01-31-2008, 10:20 PM
I did not manipulate anything...I guess you will tell me Smith is a better halfback, though he is less known for big gains and more for tough yards and Mendenhall is known for both. UCF also has a weaker schedule, sorry but true...Mendenhall played against the top two defensive units in the country and ran all over them, including nearly gaining double the yards that Stewart had against USC. Who was the best defense Smith played against? South Florida which is the 28th ranked defense? Texas the 52nd rated defense? The answer is Mississippi St. who was ranked 21st overall rated defense.

Mendenhall played against Three of the top defenses in the country in Penn St., USC and Ohio St., playing even a few others if you count the top twenty defensively. Stewart even played against better competition, and it might not matter which is true...it still shows the capability that Mendenhall and Stewart have to play tough defenses, but even Cutler who came from a weak program played against top competition!

Texas had the 6th best run defense in the nation this season... and he ran all over them...

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/natlRank.jsp?div=4&rpt=IA_teamrushdef&site=org

FinNasty
01-31-2008, 10:35 PM
My point is... take advantage of the depth of this draft at RB.

You can use your first round pick on a big need in the trenches, and then fill your need at RB with a stud in Kevin Smith in Rd 2.

Hes going to be better value, and like someone else said earlier... more bang for your buck. ESPECIALLY in your ZBS...

FinNasty
01-31-2008, 10:36 PM
Anyone doubting Stewart has more than just power he has speed and agility, here check this video Stewart jumps over players from Michigan when he runs the ball

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm0jCiLv9Ds (highlights vs michigan) 15 carries for 111 yds in this game

0:22 jumps over Michigan player than pounds his way in for a TD.

2:05 takes the hand off and jumps over another player and gets some yards after contact.

Got to love Stewart...


I LOVE THIS RB CLASS!!! So many freaking great RBs...

Orange Cru$h
01-31-2008, 10:40 PM
UCF also has a weaker schedule.
Mendenhall played against Three of the top defenses in the country in Penn St., USC and Ohio St., playing even a few others if you count the top twenty defensively.
The difference though is production against quality teams. Same thing about a weaker schedule. If you look closer Mendenhall didn't produce against the big teams you are speaking of. If you didn't count one 80 yard run on USC all three teams would have held him less than 90 yards. I think he is a very good runner but 200 yards were against a 1-11 Minnesota and some other weaker teams. And after seeing the Championship almost everyone knows what the Big 10 is really about. I would be OK with Smith. He could be a steal. I actually think Stewart had the bigger games against bigger teams. Would I want to use a our #1 pick on him? Probably not.

lancane
01-31-2008, 10:57 PM
Texas had the 6th best run defense in the nation this season... and he ran all over them...

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/natlRank.jsp?div=4&rpt=IA_teamrushdef&site=org

Okay so he ran well against a team only allowing 101.2 yards a game for most of the year...I though Texas was ranked lower, so I was wrong...And just so you know though, Mendenhall faced the 3rd, 4th and 7th best rushing defenses, if you combined the average allowed of 260 at that is all three, he had 405 total yards against those three teams. Smith may end up being a great back, but he has ware concerns, he does not have an impressive YPC average, and he also scores far less then the other top backs, once per every twenty touches. He really does not compare to the top backs in the draft...

lancane
01-31-2008, 11:03 PM
The difference though is production against quality teams. Same thing about a weaker schedule. If you look closer Mendenhall didn't produce against the big teams you are speaking of. If you didn't count one 80 yard run on USC all three teams would have held him less than 90 yards. I think he is a very good runner but 200 yards were against a 1-11 Minnesota and some other weaker teams. And after seeing the Championship almost everyone knows what the Big 10 is really about. I would be OK with Smith. He could be a steal. I actually think Stewart had the bigger games against bigger teams. Would I want to use a our #1 pick on him? Probably not.

Add again...You are just counting rushing yards, a lot of times they had other backs rushing and Mendenhall receiving so he did not get all the yards he could have gotten. Illinois rushed for over 3300 yards and he only had 1600 of those yards, but he had over 300 in receiving I believe. He also scored more then almost every halfback in the draft I believe.

;)

lancane
01-31-2008, 11:16 PM
My point is... take advantage of the depth of this draft at RB.

You can use your first round pick on a big need in the trenches, and then fill your need at RB with a stud in Kevin Smith in Rd 2.

Hes going to be better value, and like someone else said earlier... more bang for your buck. ESPECIALLY in your ZBS...

Who??? Please tell me who this almighty linemen is? Because the only one I see capable of starting who has experience with the zone scheme is Long, and we stand no chance of getting him. Please enlighten me, Williams may pick it up well, but he is not from a similar scheme, Clady is raw and he also is not from a zone scheme based system I believe and he may not be ready to start for at least a year, Baker is falling down the charts as is Cherilus and Otah sure in the hell is no fit...so who? Williams is the best possible pick, but I do not see him starting for at least a year either...and there are some great tackles who fit the scheme and could start quickly or within a year like most, Tony Hills from Texas, Oniel Cousins from UTEP, Carl Nicks from Nebraska, Anthony Collins from Kansas...Duane Brown or Kirk Barton. The issue is that they may be just as good, they will likely need the same amount of time to get the system and a back makes more of an immediate impact, so why take a linemen first instead of a monster back? Besides the fact Smith is your boy?

Orange Cru$h
01-31-2008, 11:16 PM
Add again...You are just counting rushing yards, a lot of times they had other backs rushing and Mendenhall receiving so he did not get all the yards he could have gotten. Illinois rushed for over 3300 yards and he only had 1600 of those yards, but he had over 300 in receiving I believe. He also scored more then almost every halfback in the draft I believe.

;)
Don't get me wrong. I think he is real good. I just think we need someone IF we draft a back that can handle a heavy load. Smith has proven he can. It is important for someone that can catch out of the back. So I get ya there. But if Illinois rushed for 3300 yards and Mendenhall only had 1600 that makes me think that the OL was pretty darn good and another back would have done the same. ?
My personal favorite would be to drop Henry and get Turner. Too bad the cash would probably be way too high for the Broncos to fork over.

lancane
01-31-2008, 11:20 PM
Don't get me wrong. I think he is real good. I just think we need someone IF we draft a back that can handle a heavy load. Smith has proven he can. It is important for someone that can catch out of the back. So I get ya there. But if Illinois rushed for 3300 yards and Mendenhall only had 1600 that makes me think that the OL was pretty darn good and another back would have done the same. ?
My personal favorite would be to drop Henry and get Turner. Too bad the cash would probably be way too high for the Broncos to fork over.

Actually their line sucked, if not for the ZBS and spread formations they ran I think he would have had far less success. Fact is they had a showboat quarterback who loved to hog the ball, he alone had 700 plus yards, Mendenhall is alot better then you are giving credit...but I will laugh, because if the Texans get him and we play them...I bet you he makes what they did last time look like child's play.

FinNasty
02-01-2008, 12:38 PM
Who??? Please tell me who this almighty linemen is? Because the only one I see capable of starting who has experience with the zone scheme is Long, and we stand no chance of getting him. Please enlighten me, Williams may pick it up well, but he is not from a similar scheme, Clady is raw and he also is not from a zone scheme based system I believe and he may not be ready to start for at least a year, Baker is falling down the charts as is Cherilus and Otah sure in the hell is no fit...so who? Williams is the best possible pick, but I do not see him starting for at least a year either...and there are some great tackles who fit the scheme and could start quickly or within a year like most, Tony Hills from Texas, Oniel Cousins from UTEP, Carl Nicks from Nebraska, Anthony Collins from Kansas...Duane Brown or Kirk Barton. The issue is that they may be just as good, they will likely need the same amount of time to get the system and a back makes more of an immediate impact, so why take a linemen first instead of a monster back? Besides the fact Smith is your boy?

I didnt say an offensive linemen, I said someone in the trenches like DL.


Listen... I dont follow the Broncos, so I dont know what your needs are as a team. The point was to spend a 1st round pick on a stud at a need position other than RB, and then spend a 2nd round pick on a stud at RB...

AC1
02-01-2008, 01:03 PM
I didnt say an offensive linemen, I said someone in the trenches like DL.


Listen... I dont follow the Broncos, so I dont know what your needs are as a team. The point was to spend a 1st round pick on a stud at a need position other than RB, and then spend a 2nd round pick on a stud at RB...

I agree with this approach. The depth at RB this year allows us to get a first-round caliber back in the second round with Smith or Choice, both of whom can be elite backs in our system. Get Clady/Baker/Williams in the first and our offense is set!

My personal vote goes to Kevin Smith, just so we can have our own version of Jay and Silent Bob in our backfield! :)

91bronco
02-01-2008, 01:24 PM
My point is... take advantage of the depth of this draft at RB.

You can use your first round pick on a big need in the trenches, and then fill your need at RB with a stud in Kevin Smith in Rd 2.

Hes going to be better value, and like someone else said earlier... more bang for your buck. ESPECIALLY in your ZBS...

Great post! You understand how to take advantage of a deep draft at runningback by picking up what normally is 1st round talent in the 2nd. With as many holes as we have (runningback not being the biggest by a long shot) it makes sense to maximize the value of our picks. I like your track record with on player picks too (BMarsh).

All that being said, I really doubt we take a first day runningback. We shall see....

BroncoKazuki
02-01-2008, 05:59 PM
Great post! You understand how to take advantage of a deep draft at runningback by picking up what normally is 1st round talent in the 2nd. With as many holes as we have (runningback not being the biggest by a long shot) it makes sense to maximize the value of our picks. I like your track record with on player picks too (BMarsh).

All that being said, I really doubt we take a first day runningback. We shall see....


The draft isnt as deep as some people think, Once Choice and Smith go, the rest of the RB's in the draft have flags galore.

Plus theres a reason why Mendenhall, Stewart and Jones are rated higher then Smith and most of the RB's in the draft and thats because the talent can keep growing.

Plus the way Smith plays puts up some concerns heath wise. Forte , Heart and wheover else that others want to be an RB will have flags or heath concerns.

We just gotta stop picking at the bottom of the barrel when we have the best chance to have the pick of the litter when it comes to RB's this year.

AC1
02-01-2008, 06:38 PM
The draft isnt as deep as some people think, Once Choice and Smith go, the rest of the RB's in the draft have flags galore.

Plus theres a reason why Mendenhall, Stewart and Jones are rated higher then Smith and most of the RB's in the draft and thats because the talent can keep growing.

Plus the way Smith plays puts up some concerns heath wise. Forte , Heart and wheover else that others want to be an RB will have flags or heath concerns.

We just gotta stop picking at the bottom of the barrel when we have the best chance to have the pick of the litter when it comes to RB's this year.

Second round is bottom of the barrel?

lancane
02-01-2008, 06:46 PM
I didnt say an offensive linemen, I said someone in the trenches like DL.


Listen... I dont follow the Broncos, so I dont know what your needs are as a team. The point was to spend a 1st round pick on a stud at a need position other than RB, and then spend a 2nd round pick on a stud at RB...

Fin, I completely understand the point...but I will explain this as easy I can for those (not you) but others on these boards who have no clue...right now Ellis and Dorsey are both top five rated prospects, Phillips is not even a top 20 and the same can be said for Rivers and Conners. We have literally no shot at Ellis, Phillips - Rivers and Conners will all be reaches, some question if they should even be first round picks. DeSean Jackson does not fit well with our unit, he would cause a riff in the team, especially between Shanahan, Marshall and Cutler, Williams - Baker and Clady would be okay picks but the likelyhood of them starting is slim to none over a linebacker, halfback or defensive tackle...the most likely scenario is that we draft from three positions DT, OT, HB...and the only viable defensive tackle will be Balmer and he does have some flags that make him a leary pick, leaving halfback as the most reasonable option, especially since the second round will be full of positional needed athletes - LB, DT, S, OT, WR.

The ideal move would be to trade the 12th overall pick to Detroit for Shaun Rogers and the 15th overall pick and likely their 6th round pick. It fills the immediate need for Defensive Tackle, at 15 we still have options or we can trade down again for another latter first and a second round pick, I also believe between Walker, Foxworth and the use of picks next year we will end up with another day one pick anyways...so that would give us Rogers, draft the best back that falls to us in the first whether it is Jones, Mendenhall or Stewart, and then have three 2nd Round picks to cover needs - eliminating HB, DT already then we can cover WR, LB, OT or S...and that does not include we have six picks on day two. But if Denver has the chance whether or not early or latter in the first round, it would be smarter to grab a top graded halfback over a second tier back.

BroncoKazuki
02-01-2008, 07:15 PM
Second round is bottom of the barrel?

I think Lancane said it better then I could .:coffee:


Fin, I completely understand the point...but I will explain this as easy I can for those (not you) but others on these boards who have no clue...right now Ellis and Dorsey are both top five rated prospects, Phillips is not even a top 20 and the same can be said for Rivers and Conners. We have literally no shot at Ellis, Phillips - Rivers and Conners will all be reaches, some question if they should even be first round picks. DeSean Jackson does not fit well with our unit, he would cause a riff in the team, especially between Shanahan, Marshall and Cutler, Williams - Baker and Clady would be okay picks but the likelyhood of them starting is slim to none over a linebacker, halfback or defensive tackle...the most likely scenario is that we draft from three positions DT, OT, HB...and the only viable defensive tackle will be Balmer and he does have some flags that make him a leary pick, leaving halfback as the most reasonable option, especially since the second round will be full of positional needed athletes - LB, DT, S, OT, WR.

The ideal move would be to trade the 12th overall pick to Detroit for Shaun Rogers and the 15th overall pick and likely their 6th round pick. It fills the immediate need for Defensive Tackle, at 15 we still have options or we can trade down again for another latter first and a second round pick, I also believe between Walker, Foxworth and the use of picks next year we will end up with another day one pick anyways...so that would give us Rogers, draft the best back that falls to us in the first whether it is Jones, Mendenhall or Stewart, and then have three 2nd Round picks to cover needs - eliminating HB, DT already then we can cover WR, LB, OT or S...and that does not include we have six picks on day two. But if Denver has the chance whether or not early or latter in the first round, it would be smarter to grab a top graded halfback over a second tier back.

AC1
02-01-2008, 09:06 PM
I think Lancane said it better then I could .:coffee:

...and the core premise of that logic has been refuted in a different thread. I'm pasting directly.


I think there's a problem with the logic of not selecting first-round linemen because they can't start right away. That would mean our line would never have a blue-chip player simply because we don't have the patience to develop one. A lack of patience to develop quality talent is arguably the root cause of the problems we are facing right now.

Great teams have great lines. Great lines are made up of great linemen. The best linemen are available in the higher rounds of the draft, especially at tackle. A team has to invest in a tackle at some point. We are not going to the Superbowl next year, even if we get McFadden, let alone Mendenhall. This is a great time to get your franchise LT, especially when you have a young franchise QB, and your available choices at LT are a player with zero starts and a back problem, and another who is an undrafted scrub and ought to pay half his earnings to Daniel Graham and Jake Plummer.

We do need to have a really good RB to maximize the advantages of the zone-blocking scheme. However, the optimal choice would be to get him either in the second round this year, or in the first round next year. Picking a RB first this year and a franchise LT next year (in the event Harris or Pears or the scrub we select this year doesn't pan out at LT) is really not taking maximum advantage of the two drafts.

For what it's worth, I realize Shanahan may end up picking RB in the first-round, and I've made my peace with it (at least it wouldn't be a LB). However, I have a feeling Shanahan is smarter than that. He did want to take Maroney couple of years ago, but that's when we had a set OL. The hits he saw Cutler taking in the Houston and San Diego game, may have made up his mind to get him a franchise LT (even if Lepsis had not retired). Not to mention that watching the Pats the past month or so and hearing of them be talked about as the best offense of all time (an honor previously reserved for his 49er offense of 1994) is likely going to get him charged up enough to take the passing game to the next level.

Zealander
02-01-2008, 10:39 PM
Maybe we should just sign Michael Turner and forget the whole thing?

BroncoKazuki
02-01-2008, 10:59 PM
Maybe we should just sign Michael Turner and forget the whole thing?

wont happen, SD will quicky sign him.


and AC1 while I do agree with what you said but I degree our ZBS calls for quick linemen and the max weight of one of our O-linemen is 310 lbs. the only O-linemen I could see us getting but we do not have a remote chance of getting is Jake Long.

Plus as much as people hate to realize it, the ZBS we deploy and whoever we grab as an OT in round 1 (excluding Jake Long) would end up sitting on the bench for a whole season or a half a season. Then the whole arguement of why not throw away the ZBS and go with the regular man to man blocking system.

Well you know what... that would take 4 more drafts to finish while letting the piss poor RB by Committee do what it always does gain yards when were outside the red but cannot drive it in at the end.

We have a chance to get both an RB in the 1st and OT/OG in the 2nd.

Knowing you AC you'll retort with "Then there are good RB's in the 2nd as well"

I'll say this though theres only two RB out of all the 2nd rounders I would Ever...EVER consider taking and thats Chris Johnson from East Carolina or Tashard Choice from Georgia Tech. Who will go into the 2nd round. Other then that the rest of the RB's have flags or Heath Concerns that we should steer clear away from.

Zealander
02-02-2008, 01:19 AM
wont happen, SD will quicky sign him.




I've read stuff that says Turner wants out of San Diego. He wants to make his own name and not play behind LT's shadow. He thinks he can play and wants to be else where. I've always thought Turner was a monster. Signing him would eliminate that need for us before the draft. It is San Diego but I guess it's possible.

BroncoKazuki
02-02-2008, 02:50 AM
I've read stuff that says Turner wants out of San Diego. He wants to make his own name and not play behind LT's shadow. He thinks he can play and wants to be else where. I've always thought Turner was a monster. Signing him would eliminate that need for us before the draft. It is San Diego but I guess it's possible.

True but as things are starting to sure up, Turner may get a hefty contract from SD to stay. Especially how LT was during the post-season, then again Turner was only a factor in the Indy game and was non-existent in the NE game. Theres not much to go on, performance wise without seeing a full year of Turner in action.

I doubt Shanny will take him on the reason that Bowlen will probably not allow it, mainly due to the 'draft better' and whats better then getting your 'own' star RB.

lancane
02-02-2008, 02:52 AM
I've read stuff that says Turner wants out of San Diego. He wants to make his own name and not play behind LT's shadow. He thinks he can play and wants to be else where. I've always thought Turner was a monster. Signing him would eliminate that need for us before the draft. It is San Diego but I guess it's possible.

Turner will also get top dollar, more then Henry and most first round picks - well Mendenhall, Stewart and Jones at least. Do you really think Shanahan will dish out that kind of money on a veteran free agent after all that has been said? No way in hell...as I said before Bowlen has tightened the strings and with Davis's recent discussion on NFLN about how we need a dominant run game again, so has Elway...do you really think Bowlen is not going to give weight to the matter, no matter what Shanahan says. As Davis said we are in need of a good defensive tackle first and foremost, but his ringing endorsement of a dominant run game will likely ring for Shanahan as well. So with not being to get Ellis or Dorsey, I think trading for Rogers for a few years is smarter then most people want to care for...I will say that the more that is said on the matter, the more I believe we will target a top shelf halfback.

FinNasty
02-02-2008, 03:10 PM
Fin, I completely understand the point...but I will explain this as easy I can for those (not you) but others on these boards who have no clue...right now Ellis and Dorsey are both top five rated prospects, Phillips is not even a top 20 and the same can be said for Rivers and Conners. We have literally no shot at Ellis, Phillips - Rivers and Conners will all be reaches, some question if they should even be first round picks. DeSean Jackson does not fit well with our unit, he would cause a riff in the team, especially between Shanahan, Marshall and Cutler, Williams - Baker and Clady would be okay picks but the likelyhood of them starting is slim to none over a linebacker, halfback or defensive tackle...the most likely scenario is that we draft from three positions DT, OT, HB...and the only viable defensive tackle will be Balmer and he does have some flags that make him a leary pick, leaving halfback as the most reasonable option, especially since the second round will be full of positional needed athletes - LB, DT, S, OT, WR.

The ideal move would be to trade the 12th overall pick to Detroit for Shaun Rogers and the 15th overall pick and likely their 6th round pick. It fills the immediate need for Defensive Tackle, at 15 we still have options or we can trade down again for another latter first and a second round pick, I also believe between Walker, Foxworth and the use of picks next year we will end up with another day one pick anyways...so that would give us Rogers, draft the best back that falls to us in the first whether it is Jones, Mendenhall or Stewart, and then have three 2nd Round picks to cover needs - eliminating HB, DT already then we can cover WR, LB, OT or S...and that does not include we have six picks on day two. But if Denver has the chance whether or not early or latter in the first round, it would be smarter to grab a top graded halfback over a second tier back.

This is where we differ...

You feel that Kevin is on a different tier than Mendenhall/Stewart in terms of talent....


Its not true. Kevin played at a smaller school and got less exposure. He doesnt have as fast of a top gear as those 2... However, Kevin has better vision and patience than either of them.


They are on the same tier... except Smith is going to go in the second b/c of questions about his competition...

And as Brandon Marshall has already proved to you guys... the level of competition doesnt matter. Talent is talent...

lancane
02-02-2008, 03:56 PM
This is where we differ...

You feel that Kevin is on a different tier than Mendenhall/Stewart in terms of talent....


Its not true. Kevin played at a smaller school and got less exposure. He doesnt have as fast of a top gear as those 2... However, Kevin has better vision and patience than either of them.


They are on the same tier... except Smith is going to go in the second b/c of questions about his competition...

And as Brandon Marshall has already proved to you guys... the level of competition doesnt matter. Talent is talent...

If he was so good Fin by all means explain why he played less talented defenses and had less YPC then the other top backs in the draft. If he faced only one top ten run defense and overall had YPC of 6.9 or even 6.5, his yearly average playing against weaker teams barely over the five yard mark, which tells me he gets alot of four to three yard runs and breaks one now and then, or he is stuffed behind the line way too often. If he played five top run defenses a year and had the yards he does, then I would be all for it...but he has not played the best competition. Could he be an Emmitt Smith type back, sure...but Emmitt Smith came from a big program against top competition, I just do not see your boy being anything more then a rotational back in the long run...sorry, but that is my honest opinion.

Look I agreed with you on Marshall, I agree with you that there is some talent at UCF and USF, but Smith is not as good as you want to believe, and if we draft him he would look good because he would be like all those between Davis and Portis, another system back.

AC1
02-02-2008, 10:21 PM
If he was so good Fin by all means explain why he played less talented defenses and had less YPC then the other top backs in the draft. If he faced only one top ten run defense and overall had YPC of 6.9 or even 6.5, his yearly average playing against weaker teams barely over the five yard mark, which tells me he gets alot of four to three yard runs and breaks one now and then, or he is stuffed behind the line way too often. If he played five top run defenses a year and had the yards he does, then I would be all for it...but he has not played the best competition. Could he be an Emmitt Smith type back, sure...but Emmitt Smith came from a big program against top competition, I just do not see your boy being anything more then a rotational back in the long run...sorry, but that is my honest opinion.


How do their offensive lines compare?

lancane
02-02-2008, 10:37 PM
How do their offensive lines compare?

I think you have to question both UCF's and Illinois's offensive lines, there are both nothing to be desired. Stewart, McFadden and Jones had good overall lines, Slaton had a good line but a great fullback, Rice had a questionable line himself. While Choice, Hart, Charles and Forte has good overall lines, and Johnson had the most questionable with being a small program school. But hands down Mendenhall did the best overall and all around with a questionable line compared to most in the HB class.

FinNasty
02-02-2008, 10:50 PM
If he was so good Fin by all means explain why he played less talented defenses and had less YPC then the other top backs in the draft. If he faced only one top ten run defense and overall had YPC of 6.9 or even 6.5, his yearly average playing against weaker teams barely over the five yard mark, which tells me he gets alot of four to three yard runs and breaks one now and then, or he is stuffed behind the line way too often. If he played five top run defenses a year and had the yards he does, then I would be all for it...but he has not played the best competition. Could he be an Emmitt Smith type back, sure...but Emmitt Smith came from a big program against top competition, I just do not see your boy being anything more then a rotational back in the long run...sorry, but that is my honest opinion.

Look I agreed with you on Marshall, I agree with you that there is some talent at UCF and USF, but Smith is not as good as you want to believe, and if we draft him he would look good because he would be like all those between Davis and Portis, another system back.

His YPC can be attributed to how he was used, and what he was going against.

He did get stopped at the LOS a decent amount(or behind the LOS). But it wasnt b/c of anything he was doing, it was because he was facing 9 in the box with run blitzes every down.

Thats how it works when you are going against 9 in the box, regardless of the competition. You pound and pound away at it until there is a cutback lane or he manages to break multiple tackles. Thats the nature of it. In that situation, its either boom or bust on those runs. You either are going nowhere because every single gap is filled, or... you mangage to break through to the 2nd level and you get a big gain b/c everyone was up at the LOS.


Without looking at statistics... and looking at the actual film of the RBs... what does Kevin do that he isnt that good at? What aspect of his game makes him a "second tier" RB vs. the others? What does he lack that the others are so much superior to him at?

FinNasty
02-02-2008, 10:53 PM
I think you have to question both UCF's and Illinois's offensive lines, there are both nothing to be desired. Stewart, McFadden and Jones had good overall lines, Slaton had a good line but a great fullback, Rice had a questionable line himself. While Choice, Hart, Charles and Forte has good overall lines, and Johnson had the most questionable with being a small program school. But hands down Mendenhall did the best overall and all around with a questionable line compared to most in the HB class.

You arnt really going to compare a CUSA line to a Big 10 line, are you?

I'm not saying that Illinois oline is great... but it is absolutly much more talented than the 1 star players that were recruited to play oline at UCF.

lancane
02-02-2008, 10:59 PM
His YPC can be attributed to how he was used, and what he was going against.

He did get stopped at the LOS a decent amount(or behind the LOS). But it wasnt b/c of anything he was doing, it was because he was facing 9 in the box with run blitzes every down.

Thats how it works when you are going against 9 in the box, regardless of the competition. You pound and pound away at it until there is a cutback lane or he manages to break multiple tackles. Thats the nature of it. In that situation, its either boom or bust on those runs. You either are going nowhere because every single gap is filled, or... you mangage to break through to the 2nd level and you get a big gain b/c everyone was up at the LOS.


Without looking at statistics... and looking at the actual film of the RBs... what does Kevin do that he isnt that good at? What aspect of his game makes him a "second tier" RB vs. the others? What does he lack that the others are so much superior to him at?

He carries the load well, he has overall good hands, but he is not a dominant back, at least not in my opinion. He is a good halfback, but compared to the top tier backs such as Stewart, McFadden, Mendenhall and Jones he really is not in the same class or even scouts would be saying he was a first round back, look at Cutler, or Jenkins this year...sometimes the program can not be blamed for the lack of what scouts and fans see, I also think the ware on his body is a concern...but the one thing I have heard most of all is that he lacks power and big play ability and yes I know he has had some big runs...but he has had most of his big plays against weak opponents. And like I said that could mean nothing, but if I risk a pick on a back, then I risk it on a round one back, at the latest a 2nd round back...Smith will be a third to fourth rounder as of right now and I do not see that changing too much.

lancane
02-02-2008, 11:02 PM
You arnt really going to compare a CUSA line to a Big 10 line, are you?

I am in no way saying that Illinois oline is great... but it is absolutly more talented than the 1 star players that were recruited to play oline at UCF.

No I am just stating that both in their confrences alone had weak lines, not that I am comparing lines...I would be better to compare UCF's with East Carolina's, but neither had great lines by any means, the thing which impresses me is that Mendenhall did great behind a crap line against top talent and that gives leverage in my mind about his ability. That better?

;)

FinNasty
02-02-2008, 11:12 PM
He carries the load well, he has overall good hands, but he is not a dominant back, at least not in my opinion. He is a good halfback, but compared to the top tier backs such as Stewart, McFadden, Mendenhall and Jones he really is not in the same class or even scouts would be saying he was a first round back, look at Cutler, or Jenkins this year...sometimes the program can not be blamed for the lack of what scouts and fans see, I also think the ware on his body is a concern...but the one thing I have heard most of all is that he lacks power and big play ability and yes I know he has had some big runs...but he has had most of his big plays against weak opponents. And like I said that could mean nothing, but if I risk a pick on a back, then I risk it on a round one back, at the latest a 2nd round back...Smith will be a third to fourth rounder as of right now and I do not see that changing too much.

So, have you watched him play? or are you basing this off of what you've heard?

I'm asking you... after watching his film... what does he lack that keeps him from being a "dominant" back? What does he need to be better at in your opinion?

lancane
02-02-2008, 11:20 PM
I will put it this way, if we take a halfback in the first round...which I think a very smart move we should take Mendenhall, if we wait till the second round the smart pick may be Jamaal Charles or Tashard Choice, if we wait till the third or fourth rounds...I would say Kevin Smith would be a wise risk if he is available.

FinNasty
02-02-2008, 11:28 PM
No I am just stating that both in their confrences alone had weak lines, not that I am comparing lines...I would be better to compare UCF's with East Carolina's, but neither had great lines by any means, the thing which impresses me is that Mendenhall did great behind a crap line against top talent and that gives leverage in my mind about his ability. That better?

;)

Well, you are right that he has had more of an opportunity to prove himself against top talent...

All of the top backs have that on Smith.

But its really all they've got...

I cant believe you think he is a 3rd/4th round pick. What backs do you see going ahead of him?

And you still have yet to tell me specifically about Smith's game that makes him not that great of a back?

lancane
02-02-2008, 11:30 PM
So, have you watched him play? or are you basing this off of what you've heard?

I'm asking you... after watching his film... what does he lack that keeps him from being a "dominant" back? What does he need to be better at in your opinion?

Personally I think he needs to beef up a little, he carries the ball a little too flimsily, he needs to hold the ball tighter and more into his body. He needs to learn to square his shoulders and not play so high, he does not lower and run well, which could be a concern at the next level, especially against a hard hitting linebackers or safeties. His cutting ability is good, but he uses his knees and legs in his cutbacks more then his ankles and if he takes a shot to his legs during that it could cause a major tear. I really do not like how he runs backwards to makes something happen a lot and loses yards, he really is not that powerful in my mind and loses too much yardage because he lacks that push, he catches high which is easy to fix, he really has good game speed though and if he can find a gap he can make you pay, but he is not an all around HB, he could become one...but again I have only watched the equal of three hours of total film on him.

lancane
02-02-2008, 11:34 PM
Well, you are right that he has had more of an opportunity to prove himself against top talent...

All of the top backs have that on Smith.

But its really all they've got...

I cant believe you think he is a 3rd/4th round pick. What backs do you see going ahead of him?

And you still have yet to tell me specifically about Smith's game that makes him not that great of a back?

After the first round right? Chris Johnson, Jamaal Charles, Ray Rice, Tashard Choice (Only Because of the Senior Bowl) and if he has a decent combine, Steve Slaton and maybe Forte, he may gain ground if he has a real good combine and shows up Rice, Choice, Forte, Slaton and Charles. Hart could surpass him if he has a great pro day, but right now I think openly he is a solid third round running back. But he can force himself into the second, but not early enough for us to grab him.

FinNasty
02-02-2008, 11:38 PM
Personally I think he needs to beef up a little, he carries the ball a little too flimsily, he needs to hold the ball tighter and more into his body. He needs to learn to square his shoulders and not play so high, he does not lower and run well, which could be a concern at the next level, especially against a hard hitting linebackers or safeties. His cutting ability is good, but he uses his knees and legs in his cutbacks more then his ankles and if he takes a shot to his legs during that it could cause a major tear. I really do not like how he runs backwards to makes something happen a lot and loses yards, he really is not that powerful in my mind and loses too much yardage because he lacks that push, he catches high which is easy to fix, he really has good game speed though and if he can find a gap he can make you pay, but he is not an all around HB, he could become one...but again I have only watched the equal of three hours of total film on him.

Where did you aquire film on him from?

FinNasty
02-02-2008, 11:39 PM
After the first round right? Chris Johnson, Jamaal Charles, Ray Rice, Tashard Choice (Only Because of the Senior Bowl) and if he has a decent combine, Steve Slaton and maybe Forte, he may gain ground if he has a real good combine and shows up Rice, Choice, Forte, Slaton and Charles. Hart could surpass him if he has a great pro day, but right now I think openly he is a solid third round running back. But he can force himself into the second, but not early enough for us to grab him.

Wow...

I'm speachless...

lancane
02-02-2008, 11:44 PM
Where did you aquire film on him from?

My cousin Robert is UCF Allumni he goes to most of the games, his son goes to Central, his daughter goes to Miami and his wife is a graduate of Florida State, between the four of them I can tell you about a lot of the Florida prospects...I use to live in Pensicola myself, I also have two nephews going to college one goes to Maryland and another goes to Alabama. So between them all I get some decent overall info. And those they can not get me film on I find a way to get anyways from friends...

;)

MindField
02-02-2008, 11:46 PM
Actually a backfield of Stewart/Mendenhall, Selvin Young and Andre Hall (that also appears to be the designated kickoff return man) looks very promising indeed and could become one of the deeper backfields in the NFL.:rockon:

FinNasty
02-02-2008, 11:47 PM
My cousin Robert is UCF Allumni he goes to most of the games, his son goes to Central, his daughter goes to Miami and his wife is a graduate of Florida State, between the four of them I can tell you about a lot of the Florida prospects...I use to live in Pensicola myself, I also have two nephews going to college one goes to Maryland and another goes to Alabama. So between them all I get some decent overall info. And those they can not get me film on I find a way to get anyways from friends...

;)

I thought you had some draft website with film or something...

So, they put videos together for you? Of what games? I'm trying to understand how you've come to your conclusion on Smith...

lancane
02-02-2008, 11:48 PM
Wow...

I'm speachless...

Do not take it as those backs are better then him...remember Chris Henry? Sometimes backs pass others on just show, which I think would be the only reason why Forte, Hart or Slaton would go before him. Slaton will be drafted as a speed back, Forte has bust and injury written all over him and Hart is already questionable. I think he is more solid then any of those three, Rice is a good halfback and he may not pass him, and like I said Choice really shot up because of the Senior Bowl.

lancane
02-02-2008, 11:53 PM
I thought you had some draft website with film or something...

So, they put videos together for you? Of what games? I'm trying to understand how you've come to your conclusion on Smith...

Robert will go through and make me a copy of what he has from their camcorders on any players I ask them about. I got film on Caldwell from Florida because I was interested in him, I got a little on Phillips because I have seen some games already with him, but I wanted to see more. I do not have any full games on Smith, mostly just the offensive plays he was involved in...I have film of him against Texas, Louisiana-Lafayette, South Fl., UAB, Memphis and UTEP this year.