PDA

View Full Version : End to the Manning/Brady debate?



AC1
09-20-2011, 09:10 AM
A few years ago, without Tom Brady, the Patriots went 11-5. This year, without Manning, the Colts are 0-2 already and look like they might end up with a top-5 pick.

Given the relative accomplishments of their supporting casts, is there debate any more about who the best QB of this generation is?

GridironChamp
09-20-2011, 09:32 AM
A few years ago, without Tom Brady, the Patriots went 11-5. This year, without Manning, the Colts are 0-2 already and look like they might end up with a top-5 pick.

Given the relative accomplishments of their supporting casts, is there debate any more about who the best QB of this generation is?

I'd take Brady.

LarryDean
09-20-2011, 10:29 AM
A few years ago, without Tom Brady, the Patriots went 11-5. This year, without Manning, the Colts are 0-2 already and look like they might end up with a top-5 pick.

Given the relative accomplishments of their supporting casts, is there debate any more about who the best QB of this generation is?

Not with me there isn't ...

I'll take Peyton Manning ... However Brady is certainly HOF as well and I would still take Elway over both them ...

What I don't want to see in this thread is

Anything make believing that McD had something to do with Brady's success outside of knowing how to flim ...

The Broncos record vs the Patriots is pretty stout however vs the Colts ...

Remedy
09-20-2011, 11:08 AM
Pure straight up QB. Manning I would agree is better.

But, if I am running a team I think I would take Brady. As a leader I think he elevates and leads a team and gets more out of the surrounding the cast.

fallforward3y+
09-20-2011, 11:10 AM
I don't know if this really solves it. The Colts are centered around Manning, so when he leaves they fall. The Pats however, are centered around a system, where players are easily replaceable.

Plus it seems like most of Indy's players just don't care without their leader Manning, like Dallas w/o Romo last year

Spice 1
09-20-2011, 12:07 PM
I don't know if this really solves it. The Colts are centered around Manning, so when he leaves they fall. The Pats however, are centered around a system, where players are easily replaceable.

Plus it seems like most of Indy's players just don't care without their leader Manning, like Dallas w/o Romo last year

Quality post right there. Look at the Colts defense. This is a defense that is designed to get after the quarterback and defend passing. Coyer has had the luxury of playing with the lead for years. Now his defense is being asked to do a lot more. Their smaller personnel have always struggled stopping the run. The only time they won the SB, the defense stepped up and carried them through the playoffs. I don't think they are good enough to carry them now, given how bad Collins is.

The Pats are like communists. No man is bigger than the team schematically, and Belliache is all about defense. Though Brady has always been dependable, NE's defense practically carried them during their SB runs.

fightinglee
09-20-2011, 12:16 PM
A few years ago, without Tom Brady, the Patriots went 11-5. This year, without Manning, the Colts are 0-2 already and look like they might end up with a top-5 pick.

Given the relative accomplishments of their supporting casts, is there debate any more about who the best QB of this generation is?

Your right, brady is obviously better AND plays for a better team.

Sync
09-20-2011, 12:17 PM
The fact that IND is failing right now doesn't necessarily make me think a great deal more of Manning (it would be hard to do so, anyway) but rather I think a great deal less of how IND have gone about building their team and supporting cast. Personally, I still like Brady better.

AC1
09-20-2011, 12:24 PM
Not with me there isn't ...

I'll take Peyton Manning ... However Brady is certainly HOF as well and I would still take Elway over both them ...

What I don't want to see in this thread is

Anything make believing that McD had something to do with Brady's success outside of knowing how to flim ...

The Broncos record vs the Patriots is pretty stout however vs the Colts ...

Good point aobut McDaniels. Can't believe we heard the whole "he coached up Brady" nonsense in 2009.

And our record, especially under Shanahan was really good against Brady and the Pats. This is with Griese and Plummer. Imagine if Shanahan had the equivalent of Brady or Manning as his QB. That's something I think about everytime someone calls Belichick the best coach in the league.

AC1
09-20-2011, 12:28 PM
Pure straight up QB. Manning I would agree is better.

But, if I am running a team I think I would take Brady. As a leader I think he elevates and leads a team and gets more out of the surrounding the cast.

I don't know about that. A lot of it is Belichick. Their 2008 record without Brady was a game or two behind their average wins per season with Brady.

Brady is without a doubt better than everyone else (including Brees). Him and Manning are in a separate zone with many all-time greats. I've gone back and forth on the debate, but so far this season we're seeing what Manning worked with.

AC1
09-20-2011, 12:32 PM
I don't know if this really solves it. The Colts are centered around Manning, so when he leaves they fall. The Pats however, are centered around a system, where players are easily replaceable.

Plus it seems like most of Indy's players just don't care without their leader Manning, like Dallas w/o Romo last year


Quality post right there. Look at the Colts defense. This is a defense that is designed to get after the quarterback and defend passing. Coyer has had the luxury of playing with the lead for years. Now his defense is being asked to do a lot more. Their smaller personnel have always struggled stopping the run. The only time they won the SB, the defense stepped up and carried them through the playoffs. I don't think they are good enough to carry them now, given how bad Collins is.

The Pats are like communists. No man is bigger than the team schematically, and Belliache is all about defense. Though Brady has always been dependable, NE's defense practically carried them during their SB runs.

Can't disagree much with either post. The Pats' offense is highly reliant on Brady too, though I suppose not to the extent that Indy's offense relies on Manning.

I ask myself what the results would be if we switched Brady and Manning.

AC1
09-20-2011, 12:34 PM
The fact that IND is failing right now doesn't necessarily make me think a great deal more of Manning (it would be hard to do so, anyway) but rather I think a great deal less of how IND have gone about building their team and supporting cast. Personally, I still like Brady better.

That's a very good point. However, doesn't the quality of the supporting cast inform the relative performances of the two QBs?

fightinglee
09-20-2011, 12:43 PM
That's a very good point. However, doesn't the quality of the supporting cast inform the relative performances of the two QBs?

Thats true, and Indiana also hasnt done as much as the patriots. I agree the colts dont have the cast that the patriots have, and they havent won the championships that the patriots have. Brady cant help that he plays on a better team. Now if they had the same exact results with these two teams, your argument would make sense, but as it is, the colts have won less with worse team. There is no basis for an argument.

I think one of Manning's biggest faults (and he doesnt have many) is the power he has taken and wants. He is not an offensive coord. It has bitten them in several situations, the most recent in that playoff game against the jets where he chose to keep passing with a minute left rather than run out the clock. It should have been game over. They gave the ball back and lost the game. Brady calls audibles as a good QB should do, but he doesnt presume to be the playcaller. He is the QB. And he is dang good at it.

JayJack
09-20-2011, 12:48 PM
A few years ago, without Tom Brady, the Patriots went 11-5. This year, without Manning, the Colts are 0-2 already and look like they might end up with a top-5 pick.

Given the relative accomplishments of their supporting casts, is there debate any more about who the best QB of this generation is?

I don't think this has anything to do with the QBs.

This is all about the Patriots Front Office VS the Colts Front Office.

Remedy
09-20-2011, 12:53 PM
I don't know about that. A lot of it is Belichick. Their 2008 record without Brady was a game or two behind their average wins per season with Brady.

Brady is without a doubt better than everyone else (including Brees). Him and Manning are in a separate zone with many all-time greats. I've gone back and forth on the debate, but so far this season we're seeing what Manning worked with.

I don't know, One could argue that Tom was on the sidelines the whole year and just as much part of the leadership despite his injury. leadership aside I mean it is not a tangible thing. I think Manning the way he runs that offense audibles throws the ball. I would say he is a better quarterback. Doesn't mean I would take him to build my team around.

GridironChamp
09-20-2011, 09:01 PM
Brady couldn't do what Manning does, he could not run a whole
offense from the LOS. That being said, Manning wouldn't be as
effective as Brady in NE's system, IMO.

Brady does operate a little more in a system, but the system was
built around him. The system that NE happens to use with/for Brady
just happens to be adaptable to, hence Cassel (who was still miles
worse than Brady, his numbers just look good like they did last
year for us). Indy's system, is not. No one can step in and do
what Manning does, it's just not possible. That's why they are
lost.

jcdavey
09-20-2011, 09:21 PM
i've always had brady as the best qb between the 2

he's better under pressure IMO, he's clutcher in his career IMO, and he even makes fewer mistakes lately

i think indy's problem is, they built a system around one guy and had him also calling the O plays

they had no backup plan, so a new guy can't step right in and not miss a beat


to me, their 0-2 is more about their poor planning for a rainy day, than it is with peyton's talents


also a reason i'd say brady is better, is because brady has looked so much better vs my team than peyton ever has

BroncsSB#3
09-21-2011, 06:26 PM
I think Manning is the better QB. He doesn't need a certain head coach with a certain scheme. He makes the scheme. He basically is the offensive coordinator.

Having said that, Brady is a close second in my mind. He is a lot more like Joe Montana, who I have as the top QB of my lifetime. Yes that's right, I just blasphemed. I put Elway second to Joe Montana.

Anyway back to Manning and Brady. They are both amazing talents and are no doubt the top 2 of this generation. Anyone who bashes either of them and doesn't acknowledge their talent does it out of pure hate.

AznBroncoFan
09-22-2011, 12:50 AM
Don't forgot spygate.

baphamet
09-22-2011, 09:01 AM
i've always had brady as the best qb between the 2

he's better under pressure IMO, he's clutcher in his career IMO, and he even makes fewer mistakes lately

i think indy's problem is, they built a system around one guy and had him also calling the O plays

they had no backup plan, so a new guy can't step right in and not miss a beat


to me, their 0-2 is more about their poor planning for a rainy day, than it is with peyton's talents


also a reason i'd say brady is better, is because brady has looked so much better vs my team than peyton ever has

pretty much this.

i am also not going to assume that if Peyton was playing, Indy would be that much better.

up until 2007 i thought manning was better than Brady, before then Brady seemed to flourish in that system but he wasn't as dominating as manning.

not anymore, Brady is every bit as dominating as manning ever was and has been far far more clutch over his career than manning.

to the people that say they didn't miss a beat when Brady went down.......the 49'ers didn't miss a beat when Montana left either.

i am sure the systems have something to do with it but you cant take something away from someone based on speculation of what you think would happen under different circumstances.

Brady > manning

BroncsSB#3
09-22-2011, 12:37 PM
i am also not going to assume that if Peyton was playing, Indy would be that much better.


Why wouldn't you assume that? They've had 10 or more wins every season for the last 9 seasons straight, all with Manning starting every one of those games. During that span they've averaged 12+ wins per season. All during that time he was putting up great numbers. The last time they had less than 10 wins was 2001.

Obviously he makes a huge difference to their team. I can understand someone thinking that Brady is better, but how can anyone reasonably say that the Colts wouldn't be "that much better" if Manning wasn't injured and was starting?

xX-Bronco-Xx
09-22-2011, 03:33 PM
I'd take Brady for the reasons the Charger fans above me just said.

And because of his boyishly good looks....

Bahahaha

baphamet
09-22-2011, 04:23 PM
Why wouldn't you assume that? They've had 10 or more wins every season for the last 9 seasons straight, all with Manning starting every one of those games. During that span they've averaged 12+ wins per season. All during that time he was putting up great numbers. The last time they had less than 10 wins was 2001.

Obviously he makes a huge difference to their team. I can understand someone thinking that Brady is better, but how can anyone reasonably say that the Colts wouldn't be "that much better" if Manning wasn't injured and was starting?

you are assuming that the colts(other than QB) are as good as they have been in years past.

i also thought manning was on the decline last year, when they had injuries It clearly showed.

they would be better with a healthy manning no doubt, but how much better? not that much IMO

i don't think they make the playoffs this year with manning.

bronx_2003
09-22-2011, 06:21 PM
you are assuming that the colts(other than QB) are as good as they have been in years past.

i also thought manning was on the decline last year, when they had injuries It clearly showed.

they would be better with a healthy manning no doubt, but how much better? not that much IMO

i don't think they make the playoffs this year with manning.

You really don't think they beat the Browns at home if Manning plays ? Its a slam dunk.

With Manning they probably win the division AGAIN, and they would at least make the playoffs.

Both are top QB's. Brady has more SB's but then without Manning the Colts would not of got near 2 SB's, winning one. The first few SB's that Brady won were more because of the NE D IMO whereas Peyton had to rack up at least 30 points every game.

I just don't think the Colts are good enough talent wise. They have no running game and no dangerous backs. The OL is inconsistent (verging on poor) and the D is pretty woeful.

The receiving core is pretty good but you put Kerry Collins behind a shaky line with no running game ? ! Good Luck ! !

You need a QB to compete, Look at the Lions. They have talented played on both sides of the ball but when Stafford has gone down they have been smoked.

The only time I have seen a team do well is NE with Cassell who took them to 11 wins but was not good enough to get to a SB

bronx_2003
09-22-2011, 06:23 PM
In fact I would go one step further and say that even though we are a re-building team with holes we have more talent then Indy on both sides of the ball.

Just shows what a QB can do - If we can just get Luck / Barkley / L Jones..................... :logo:

Passepartout
09-22-2011, 07:10 PM
Well Manning has been at camp to coach the offense and Collins, even if he is on the sidelines or not at the Colts facility.
Shows you he has presence there.

Charlie Brown
09-22-2011, 11:46 PM
Debating which QB is better (Manning or Brady) is like debating whether the chicken or the egg came first.

JakeNbake
09-22-2011, 11:50 PM
I just hate Tom Brady so I can't really argue this. I'd never pick him over Manning. Or Brees. I just hate Tom Brady with a passion. I don't know why my Broncos have a really good record against him. I JUST HATE HIS GUTS.

BroncsSB#3
09-22-2011, 11:59 PM
you are assuming that the colts(other than QB) are as good as they have been in years past.

i also thought manning was on the decline last year, when they had injuries It clearly showed.

they would be better with a healthy manning no doubt, but how much better? not that much IMO

i don't think they make the playoffs this year with manning.

Manning has done it with different head coaches, different RBs, different WRs, different TEs, different O lines, and both pretty good and bad defenses during that long run of 10+ win seasons. He's the one constant while everything around him has changed throughout the years. That points to him being the reason why they did so good. You can't say that it was just the team around him or just the system that was good all those years, when they had so many changes at so many positions and injuries.

Manning is the reason why they were that good. Hes the type of QB that could make any team a playoff contender if he's allowed to run the offense and he gets the wrs on the same page with him.

Chillez
09-23-2011, 12:18 AM
I'm a huge Tom Brady fan. If had to choice between the two I look at it this way if my team is in playoffs I will take Brady any day regular season I will take Manning without a doubt. It's like 1A and 1B. They are 2 of the best QB's of this generation...

davesizzler
09-23-2011, 09:16 AM
I don't know if this really solves it. The Colts are centered around Manning, so when he leaves they fall. The Pats however, are centered around a system, where players are easily replaceable.

Plus it seems like most of Indy's players just don't care without their leader Manning, like Dallas w/o Romo last year

I've always thought of Brady as an A- quarterback surrounded by an A+ team and that Manning is an A+ quarterback surrounded by an A- (or even B+) team.

Safety
09-24-2011, 12:52 AM
i will take Brady over Manning any day of the week.

fallforward3y+
09-24-2011, 10:14 AM
Quality post right there. Look at the Colts defense. This is a defense that is designed to get after the quarterback and defend passing. Coyer has had the luxury of playing with the lead for years. Now his defense is being asked to do a lot more. Their smaller personnel have always struggled stopping the run. The only time they won the SB, the defense stepped up and carried them through the playoffs. I don't think they are good enough to carry them now, given how bad Collins is.

The Pats are like communists. No man is bigger than the team schematically, and Belliache is all about defense. Though Brady has always been dependable, NE's defense practically carried them during their SB runs.

yeah, Indy had the worst run D in the league that year..I think size gets too much attention though, you don't have to be big to tackle backs or take angles...I saw their defense that year, their tackling was absolute ****..their MLB Cato June, I once knew that he missed 4 tackles atleast in a game just from watching HIGHLIGHTS on a game I couldn't get..I can only imagine how many he missed the whole game...they gave up nearly 400 ground yards to Jacksonville that game, Sanders and Rob Morris's losses hurt them that year

Collins isn't a bad QB, its just that Indy is centered around Manning and what he does so much, Collins doesn't fit it...plus I honestly think several players on Indy don't even care because they depend on Manning so much to be their leader

PowderAddict
09-24-2011, 05:29 PM
Brady has more rings and more playoff wins. Manning carries his team but hasn't fared nearly as well against top competition (playoffs).

I'd say the tie breaker goes to whoever has impregnated more supermodels, so Brady wins.

nic.zeman24
09-24-2011, 05:52 PM
Id Deff take Manning there were so many holes he filled up

dbfan2007
09-24-2011, 08:33 PM
A few years ago, without Tom Brady, the Patriots went 11-5. This year, without Manning, the Colts are 0-2 already and look like they might end up with a top-5 pick.

Given the relative accomplishments of their supporting casts, is there debate any more about who the best QB of this generation is?

It certainly makes Manning look like a More Valuable Player.

I agree with you. The only thing I've liked about Manning being out is that it shows how good he is. I have been saying this recently, thanks for making the thread. I personally believe you can take Manning and Brady, stick them on any team in the NFL and Manning's team will do better. Brady has the luxury of having the best coach we've seen in a long time. With Manning, he could be successful with Lane Kiffin coaching. He doesn't even need a coach. In New England, the coaching staff makes the team look better. In Indy, it's Peyton Manning lifting up the level of his teammates' talents.