PDA

View Full Version : DP: Late-season injuries prove that Tim Tebow can't make a living as a run-first qb



elecshoc
01-28-2012, 08:38 AM
Just thought I ask, can Tim keep running the way he did this year?

Link (http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19838765)


Today's question comes from A.P. Crisafi:
Q: Why not try (Tim) Tebow and (Brady) Quinn or whoever at the same time, in a kind of wildcat formation? You would have the defense confused to the max, because they wouldn't know who was getting the ball, the runner-passer or the pocket-passer. I think you could even lateral to the other one and run some variation of the option or the pure pass. If Tebow is going to play like it's street ball, why not draw up some creative plays. Curious as to your thoughts.

A: A.P., in general the Broncos will always tinker with ways to add some things to the offense that enhance what they believe Tebow can do. They basically broke the NFL mode this past season with their version of the read option.

That was something most defensive coaches had not seen in the NFL in their careers, at least beyond a one-play slice of somebody's offense.

Over the long haul, however, the Broncos have said their goal is for Tebow to progress as a passer because, in the end, that will be the best solution to relieve the increased pressure defenses put on him as a runner. When Tebow can work with more comfort from the pocket, then his ability as a runner is enhanced and the potential impact with what he can do with the ball increases.
And the fact Tebow basically finished the year in the training room with shoulder and chest injuries and would not have played the Broncos' next game had the team won in New England shows he will not be able to make a living as a run-first quarterback as his career unfolds.

Defenses simply don't allow it in the league. He started 13 games this past season, including the two playoff games, and would not have started the 14th.

Also, his threat as a runner diminshes if defenses don't believe he can hurt them throwing the ball.

Some have said the biggest hit he took against the Patriots came when he was in the pocket, but much of the punishment he took leading up to that hit came as a runner. And many scouts who saw him play down the stretch say he looked far less enthusiastic about turning the ball up the field over the final five games of the season.

They speculate it was because Tebow was hurting, and he did have treatment on his right shoulder for a few weeks before the end of the season.
The bottom line is any idea to create some misdirection on offense can be a good one, but those things are temporary fixes when it comes to the offense's performance overall.

Eventually, the Broncos have to have some kind of traditional passing game, and Tebow will have to function in it if he's going to be the team's starter over the long-term.

To that end, one of the Broncos' major goals this offseason is to improve Tebow's footwork coming back from center and when he sets to throw. His timing between his footwork and his arm-swing doesn't always match, which can lead to poor timing with his receivers.

John Elway has talked of changing Tebow's mind-set with the ball at times too. After the season, Elway said he believes he relied too much on mobility early in his own career and wants to convey that message to Tebow now. And that finding a way to stay on the field as the team's starting quarterback is an important part of the position.

Tebow's chances of staying in the lineup long term hinge on his work as a passer. The Broncos know what he can do as a runner, but given Tebow's meetings with the team's medical staff to close out the season, the Broncos also know the price tag for those runs is pretty hefty as well.

jetdrumz
01-28-2012, 08:46 AM
He got hurt in the pocket.......................

broncos SB2010
01-28-2012, 08:47 AM
anyone who votes "yes" that Tebow can run as much as he did this past season and not get hurt are just fooling themselves. Maybe he could for a season here or there but he would not be able to sustain that for extended seasons.

BeardedWonder
01-28-2012, 08:48 AM
Does he need to stop looking for contact? Yes..
Does he need to stop running? LOL...

broncos SB2010
01-28-2012, 08:49 AM
He got hurt in the pocket.......................

he got beat up running it before that.......

between running the ball and sacks and hits in the pocket he is getting hit almost 50% of the snaps, come on now be realistic. That is NOT sustainable.

LarryDean
01-28-2012, 08:57 AM
I pretty much agree but also believe as other areas of his game start to improve he'll also improve in his ability to make things happen with his feet .. He is still adapting to the speed of the game,timing and decision making process...I believe he can become effective in both throwing and running but will not get a chance wo vast improvement as a passer ..

-Rod-
01-28-2012, 08:57 AM
Tebow won't stop running. His injuries happened in the pocket. He was hit while trying to throw the ball. Tebow: 122 rushing attempts. Cam Newton: 126 rushing attempts. And no one says Newton should stop running... This "run, don't run" thing will not be an issue if the passing yards increase. Such discussion happens because the Broncos had the fewest passing attempts and a running QB that defies the conventional ways. Once Tebow starts missing games because of his running ability, he will adapt like every mobile QB that gets older. But since he got hurt while playing like a pocket passer, I see no reason to change his style. The passing attempts must go up. Let him throw on 1st down. The yards through the air must improve, the completion percentage must improve. If the passing game gets better, everyone will stop worryng about how many rushing attempts Tebow has.

draco193
01-28-2012, 08:58 AM
Something I've always wondered about the argument that Tim can't keep running: People always want a primary back, someone to take those 20 carries a game. Why would we expect them to be able to do that, but not expect Tim to take 10-12 a game?

Hadez
01-28-2012, 09:01 AM
What would be funny is if we found a backup similar to Tebow in skillet ( running the rock ), Tebow gets hurt and the backup ends up being a better passer

Idk what will happen in 2012 I just hope with the increased expectations it is just as exciting as 2011

broncos SB2010
01-28-2012, 09:03 AM
Something I've always wondered about the argument that Tim can't keep running: People always want a primary back, someone to take those 20 carries a game. Why would we expect them to be able to do that, but not expect Tim to take 10-12 a game?

because RBs are replaceable, most teams have 3 or 4 on the roster. There is only 1 starting QB. Same reason why most teams don't have a starting WR/CB returning kicks.

kingpins9
01-28-2012, 09:06 AM
Tebow was injured in the pocket. 'Nuff said.

broncos SB2010
01-28-2012, 09:12 AM
Tebow was injured in the pocket. 'Nuff said.

yea, cause getting hit on his 100+ carries had nothing to do with him being hurt...........

how many seasons did Vick go out hurt? How about Randall cunningham?

Crazy8
01-28-2012, 09:12 AM
This is stupid. Tebow gets hurt, and they try to use it as an excuse "see, I told you he can't be a run-first QB".

They don't know that he got hurt in the pocket.

I can do this too. Tom Brady will never make it as a pocket QB. He has to learn to run more. When he blew out his knee, it was obvious that he can't take the punishment from the pocket.

Oh...wait. That was flukish? It was a one-time thing? Really? He's gone through a few seasons since that time without getting hurt? Really? So, how many times has Tebow gotten hurt in the NFL? Once? Really? So, what's your point?

The thing is, we don't know. No QB's been built like Tebow in the NFL before and did the things Tebow does. The one thing you can't do is take his mentality from him by making him something he isn't.

The one thing you c

gobronx6215
01-28-2012, 09:18 AM
I find it funny that people look down upon QBs getting injured due to the fact they like to run...and then you see a pocket qb stand in there, throw the ball and break a finger and miss time...or they throw a pick and try to make a tackle and get injured and miss time. I would say more injuries happen in the pocket due to the fact of taking blindsided hits. I'm also pretty sure run 2nd QBs can get hurt too.

shawinkerpoppin
01-28-2012, 09:25 AM
He needs to get rid of the ball quicker and stop taking unnecessary hits in the pocket. There are QBs that are far less athletic but don't get hit as much becuase they can get rid of the ball. Him running the ball will lead to injuries and so will holding on to it.

tat2matt
01-28-2012, 09:26 AM
No, he cannot. His running ability is certainly a plus, but it cannot be his only weapon. He must improve his footwork, he must improve his delivery, he must improve his ability to read the defense and go through progressions (i.e: stop staring down his intended receiver), and he absolutely has to improve his ability to complete 5-10 yard touch passes. Defenses never had to worry about short routes because he was so poor in completing those types of passes. It was almost always run or deep ball, and that's no way to keep defenses honest. Especially if he tips off where his passes are going and takes way too long to deliver the ball.

Yes, I know there were some drops, and those issues also need to be addressed with intensity this off season. But there were many (far too many) atrocious throws to open receivers 5-10 yards down the field. If he can improve on those throws, roll-outs become a whole new weapon because now the defense has to actually be worried about him throwing to the underneath guy and won't be able to just rush the line. Improving his throwing skills will make him a more well-rounded threat, and that will enhance his running ability, not hurt it.

As to why a QB shouldn't be expected to carry an RB load of carries...there are RBs on the team for certain downs and situations. a 1st and 2nd down edge runner isn't expected to pound the ball on 3rd and short. A big, short yardage back isn't expected to carry 25 times a game. The QB is in on every offensive play. He's expected to be able to make things happen on every single offensive down. If he's taking a major beating because he runs too often and the defense knows what's coming, it's only a matter of time before he breaks down and his ability to make anything happen is diminished greatly. It's not smart coaching or playing to continually put your primary play-maker at that kind of risk.

gobronx6215
01-28-2012, 09:29 AM
He needs to get rid of the ball quicker and stop taking unnecessary hits in the pocket. There are QBs that are far less athletic but don't get hit as much becuase they can get rid of the ball. Him running the ball will lead to injuries and so will holding on to it.
I agree with you accept what happens when the protection fails and gets blindsided and ends up with a concussion?

broncofan1982
01-28-2012, 09:29 AM
The injury in the last game happened in the pocket as he was sandwiched many times after their D line ate our O line for lunch.

His running physical style was a huge advantage for us this year. The bigger hurts were when he was in the pocket and unable to protect himself.

Nimrod
01-28-2012, 09:34 AM
The running thing and the passing thing are unrelated to the injuries thing. QBs in the NFL get injured period and most of them are injured in the pocket or trying to escape a collapsing pocket. Maybe look at a list of the QBs that got injured this year and how - then I might put some relevance on this whole issue of Tebow running being more prone to injury.

All it proves - if a QB gets injured - is that QBs get injured in the NFL. Tebows major injury was in the last game in the pocket. How does this prove he can't run or he will not survive. All QBs get injured and it is rarely due to running. Bad comparison IMHO.

Yes he needs to have a much better passing game but injury isn't driving that train it is about playing better and winning games.

shawinkerpoppin
01-28-2012, 09:34 AM
I agree with you accept what happens when the protection fails and gets blindsided and ends up with a concussion?

things like that happen. You cant have it good all the time. Not saying it's an injury proof method but it's less of a risk.

draco193
01-28-2012, 09:36 AM
because RBs are replaceable, most teams have 3 or 4 on the roster. There is only 1 starting QB. Same reason why most teams don't have a starting WR/CB returning kicks.

The returner scenario is completely different. Returner's might not see a hit coming from a guy running full speed 20 yards out. The chances of that kind of run up and ill-preparedness for a hit on a running play are much, much lower.

Tim isn't built like Vick, Cunningham, most of the prototypical running QBs. They rely on being faster and more agile than defenders to run the ball. Tim though has a larger, thicker frame. Vick and Cunningham both played at about 215, Tebow at 236.

We see every year QBs getting injured inside the pocket, in large part because they aren't preparing for the hit. Its coming when they're fully exposed, standing upright as they extend to try and throw the ball.

Could the injuries have possibly come from him taking a beating during the season, possibly. It probably didnt help. But, any QB that gets whacked in the pocket has a good chance of getting injured from the right kind of blow. The key is to take fewer of those hits I think, with better pass protection and better reads to get the ball out quickly. Its in large part why you've seen Manning and Brady stay so relatively healthy, good protection and quick reads.

gobronx6215
01-28-2012, 09:36 AM
things like that happen. You cant have it good all the time. Not saying it's an injury proof method but it's less of a risk.
Double standards? Hahaha!

tat2matt
01-28-2012, 09:38 AM
The injury in the last game happened in the pocket as he was sandwiched many times after their D line ate our O line for lunch.

His running physical style was a huge advantage for us this year. The bigger hurts were when he was in the pocket and unable to protect himself.

I won't say the O-line played well, but as shawinkerpoppin said, Tebow takes far too many hits in the pocket because he takes too long to read the field and deliver the ball. The O-line can only protect so long, he needs to be better about getting the ball out quicker. If he were better at delivering the short pass, he wouldn't need as much time to wait for routes to develop or guys to find holes in the coverage...

AirMax
01-28-2012, 09:39 AM
tebows a shifty runner and has been playing this way since he was little. hes built like a full back runs tough only when he NEEDS too. example goal line touchdowns against patriouts and converting 3rd down run against chicago. rarely does he look to truck defenders he will run out of bounds and try to juke/dive forward to avoid contact. much like a steve young runner

this question is very annoying and the media always talks about it. do you EVER hear the question can a fullback have a long career playing the way he does ? no thats absurd. all these ppl saying he should switch his position to tight end or H back well how would he be able to sustain a career there if hes not ' big enough ' . just because the guy has the lable quarterback doesnt mean jack squat. his fitness and toughness are through the roof , if anyone can do it its tebow

tat2matt
01-28-2012, 09:41 AM
The key is to take fewer of those hits I think, with better pass protection and better reads to get the ball out quickly. Its in large part why you've seen Manning and Brady stay so relatively healthy, good protection and quick reads.

The O-line isn't terrible, in many games he had a lot of good protection. The NE game was a result of the score. They could pin their ears back because they knew he had to throw. The "quick reads" part of your statement is the most important, Tebow HAS to get better at getting the ball out faster and more accurately. Until defenses fear his arm, they'll keep bringing the pressure.

shawinkerpoppin
01-28-2012, 09:44 AM
Double standards? Hahaha!

I wouldnt call it a double standard. I dont min him running. I mind him taking unecesary shots. Running around and then getting hit for a loss or next to no gain is pretty uncesary. If he can get the ball out in like 3 seconds fine. Sometimes it takes a little longer. But he cant consistently do that right now. I seen it a few times but not often. He has to hit the open guy throw someone open or dump it off vs running around all over the place.

mojo0730
01-28-2012, 09:48 AM
The reality is he can't continue to run as he has each and every game and expect to have a long, sustainable career in the NFL.

Reports were he actually had been nursing some type of arm injury AND had his arm in a sling after practices and games for about a month leading up to the divisional round where he obviously SERIOUSLY injured it. While I understand the argument "he got hurt in the pocket" and that any quarterback can get injured NOT running the football, simple logic tells you this:

Quarterback = takes hits his position normally takes.

Running back = takes hits his position normally takes.

Running quarterback = takes hits quarterbacks AND running backs take.

As I've said before, you wouldn't ask your kicker to take hits a quarterback takes, so why would you put your quarterback in a position to take hits a running back takes?

I get that fans love Tebow's running abilities and it makes him an exciting player. But point-blank it's not a very sustainable way to play football in the pros.

gobronx6215
01-28-2012, 09:49 AM
I wouldnt call it a double standard. I dont min him running. I mind him taking unecesary shots. Running around and then getting hit for a loss or next to no gain is pretty uncesary. If he can get the ball out in like 3 seconds fine. Sometimes it takes a little longer. But he cant consistently do that right now. I seen it a few times but not often. He has to hit the open guy throw someone open or dump it off vs running around all over the place.
I agree! You still need to have players run those underneath routes and dump offs if you can complete them or not.

kingpins9
01-28-2012, 10:03 AM
yea, cause getting hit on his 100+ carries had nothing to do with him being hurt...........

how many seasons did Vick go out hurt? How about Randall cunningham?

It didn't. Go actually watch the play he was "injured" on. There's a difference between getting bruised in routine football plays and actually being injured.

Comparing Tebow to Vick or Cunningham is a non-starter. Tebow is much, much tougher than either of those guys. Eyesight proves it.

Jay3
01-28-2012, 10:03 AM
Injury isn't the issue. It's wear and tear. He can't expend all his energy running, take a pounding, and still throw it with the pinpoint accuracy he needs.

He has to choose his spots. About 8 times a game.

I don't know why we keep making this as hard as we can. It seems like it keeps getting explored because it's yet one more way to explain away Tebow's winning ways without crediting his future.

But the basic facts, if everybody's honest (pro-Tebow and anti-Tebow) are not really disputable. Like Cam Newton, Tebow will always make it hard on defenses with his ability to run. He will always pick up first downs with his feet. He will always have a tendency to score touchdowns. But he will not be able to carry it on a designed run 10 times a game like some running back.

Jay3
01-28-2012, 10:12 AM
By my rough math, Cam Newton averaged about 8 carries a game this season, for 5.6 yards a carry. Tim Tebow averaged just under 10 carries a game this season, for 5.4 yards a carry.

Cam's probably in the right ballpark, though less might be nice. I think 8 or 10 should be the upward bounds on the high games, for an average of maybe 6.5 or so.

I think Tebow's got to get that down a bit, especially the designed runs up the middle called from the sidelines from McCoy.

This is key: McCoy needs to install more of an audible system that is keyed to the blocking and formation, the defense Tebow sees. Allow Tebow the ability to audible into a play where he runs it (or has that option). That way, every run by Tebow can be expended on a play he perceives as very advantageous and not likely to be hit as hard. You should get maximum "keep 'em honest" out of every Tebow run. None of his runs should be expended on plays where "Uh, this isn't going to get much, but Coach McCoy called it, so here goes." The wear and tear on the quarterback is not worth on a play where the defense is not necessarily napping.

If you do that, it becomes a force multiplier, because every time the defense is worried if they don't honor it, he'll do it. Save them up for those situations where they don't honor it.

Jay3
01-28-2012, 10:16 AM
In the end, I think there should be almost no designed runs for Tebow (when he's at full development). The most potent use of his running ability to is to call in from the sideline an empty backfield pass play, and tell him "See if it's there, or get it yourself if you can."

If you put it in his hands, he's very instinctive for picking up first downs by either run/pass. It's actually the same skill set he uses around the goal line, but put in that same mentality for the first down sticks. It has an amazing effect on the offense if you treat every 3rd down like a goal line situation.

They're doing some of that now, a lot of that -- but if the passing gets better, it will really all start to work together. They need to design plays with that in mind -- as in, "in order for them to stop this pass play, they'd have to give up the scramble for the first down." You sort of build things off of hard choices.

Justblaze2729
01-28-2012, 10:17 AM
Tebow won't stop running. His injuries happened in the pocket. He was hit while trying to throw the ball. Tebow: 122 rushing attempts. Cam Newton: 126 rushing attempts. And no one says Newton should stop running... This "run, don't run" thing will not be an issue if the passing yards increase. Such discussion happens because the Broncos had the fewest passing attempts and a running QB that defies the conventional ways. Once Tebow starts missing games because of his running ability, he will adapt like every mobile QB that gets older. But since he got hurt while playing like a pocket passer, I see no reason to change his style. The passing attempts must go up. Let him throw on 1st down. The yards through the air must improve, the completion percentage must improve. If the passing game gets better, everyone will stop worryng about how many rushing attempts Tebow has.

Cam newton doesnt try to bulldoze through everybody for extra yards.

Which is why tim needs to improve his passing so he wont have the mindset that he needs to work for every single yard instead of just sliding

tzinc
01-28-2012, 10:17 AM
He got injured in the pocket on a sack.

samparnell
01-28-2012, 10:24 AM
He averaged about ten rushing attempts per game. That includes scrambles on called pass plays.

I think ten rushing attempts per game on called run plays should be the maximum. Five or six would be better in order to include Double Option from direct snap/shotgun formations as a threat for which D must account.

IMO the Broncos should emphasize the power run game with assignment blocking more, with Option 20-30% of the run plays.

Jay3
01-28-2012, 10:25 AM
Cam newton doesnt try to bulldoze through everybody for extra yards.

He actually does. He's quite punishing. He's learning, like Tebow, not to waste any wear and tear on his body. But he flat run through that line if he needs to.

I was as impressed as I could be with him last year at Auburn. For a short while (a few weeks) my mind was reeling and thinking "Is is just that coaches needed to call it? Are there a lot of people that could do this if called upon?" As the season wore on, I became convinced Newton was very, very special in all phases. His rookie season in the NFL has confirmed that for me.

tat2matt
01-28-2012, 10:26 AM
I think Tebow's got to get that down a bit, especially the designed runs up the middle called from the sidelines from McCoy.

This is key: McCoy needs to install more of an audible system that is keyed to the blocking and formation, the defense Tebow sees. Allow Tebow the ability to audible into a play where he runs it (or has that option). That way, every run by Tebow can be expended on a play he perceives as very advantageous and not likely to be hit as hard. You should get maximum "keep 'em honest" out of every Tebow run. None of his runs should be expended on plays where "Uh, this isn't going to get much, but Coach McCoy called it, so here goes." The wear and tear on the quarterback is not worth on a play where the defense is not necessarily napping.

If you do that, it becomes a force multiplier, because every time the defense is worried if they don't honor it, he'll do it. Save them up for those situations where they don't honor it.

This is very good in theory, but this hinges solely on Tebow's ability to improve his basic QB play this off-season. I am hopeful that having the entire offseason to work on these things in specific order with McCoy will result in marked progress. The problem with complicating the play-calling is that Tebow had far too many series this season where he looked uncomfortable, out of his element, and sometimes just plain lost on some very basic play calls. It was widely known that they had "dumbed down" the playbook to allow for him to be comfortable in the scheme. If he's having trouble reading defenses and progressions and doing some of the basic things an NFL QB should be able to do, further complicating the process with audibles based on his ability to read at the line and adjust immediately after the snap is asking for trouble.

You're right in that the play-calling should be more varied and complex, but until Tebow shows that he has mastered the basics, it will have to stay simplified. I think that if he really (REALLY) works on solidifying his mechanics before camp, he can focus more on mastering the playbook in camp. That would be a great help in moving the entire offense forward, and in the end, it will lessen the beating his body takes in games.

CoryWinget81
01-28-2012, 10:26 AM
There's no sustainability for running QBs in the NFL.

You can lie to yourself all you want and say that this is irrelevant because "Tebow got hurt in the pocket", but he got beat up outside of the pocket all year. There were multiple reports and people that were reporters in the locker room saying that Tebow had his arm and shoulder wrapped and iced at other times late in the season.

Jay3 is about the closest to right. There should be no designed runs. Designed run means "its up to you" and we all know Tebow would try and run through a brick wall. Running as a secondary option is probably for the best.

Jay3
01-28-2012, 10:28 AM
This is very good in theory, but this hinges solely on Tebow's ability to improve his basic QB play this off-season.

Which I think is a given, for most people. Tebow won't be playing QB in this league for long if this season was his ceiling as a passer.

CoryWinget81
01-28-2012, 10:33 AM
Which I think is a given, for most people. Tebow won't be playing QB in this league for long if this season was his ceiling as a passer.

And even I don't think he's hit his ceiling as a passer. :laugh:

Pistachia
01-28-2012, 10:40 AM
Something I've always wondered about the argument that Tim can't keep running: People always want a primary back, someone to take those 20 carries a game. Why would we expect them to be able to do that, but not expect Tim to take 10-12 a game?

QBs are more sensitive to injury. A RB can hurt his hand, or his shoulder and still do his job; an upper body injury is devastating to a QB's accuracy.

Urbs
01-28-2012, 10:45 AM
he got beat up running it before that.......

between running the ball and sacks and hits in the pocket he is getting hit almost 50% of the snaps, come on now be realistic. That is NOT sustainable.

Wow tebow has been injured 3 times his whole college and nfl career. One time from running it and twice in the pocket. So 66.33% of the time was from he pocket. When he runs he can brace for hits and take less of a beating compared to being hit in the pocket. As he gets older yes he obviously will need to run less, but he is built to take hits while running for now.

spcdlee02
01-28-2012, 10:47 AM
I will never say Tim needs to stop running. But what he needs to do is make that the secondary threat to his game. If he can become a good pocket passer and force defenses to respect that, then it will make his ability to run a much greater threat. It should save his body from alot of punishment as well.

tat2matt
01-28-2012, 10:51 AM
Wow tebow has been injured 3 times his whole college and nfl career. One time from running it and twice in the pocket. So 66.33% of the time was from he pocket. When he runs he can brace for hits and take less of a beating compared to being hit in the pocket. As he gets older yes he obviously will need to run less, but he is built to take hits while running for now.

That's an excellent to plan for a long, productive career...damn the future, he can take the beating now.

LSIGRAD09
01-28-2012, 10:52 AM
Man, didn't he learn from that preseason game in Cincy?

Ran for the TD, but got belted and a tad injured. He has to get rid of the ball, I respect him for trying to extend the play and all that, but he will get himself killed out there.

Axemaster
01-28-2012, 10:59 AM
Just thought I ask, can Tim keep running the way he did this year?

Link (http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19838765)

I voted I dont know cause who knows how much he can take.

I am sure of one thing though, we all know he can pass. Look at his stats in College, against GOOD SEC Def. And in the NFL, when he is given time and makes his reads.

He will only learn and get better, given the chanc3e.:goz:

ERoyal248
01-28-2012, 11:07 AM
He needs to throw it more, and he got hit in the pocket.

mojo0730
01-28-2012, 11:26 AM
It just boggles my mind that fans are so adament that Tebow can keep running the ball 10 times a game every game and never get hurt.

I'm really starting to think that with regards to Tebow, it's just impossible to discuss him logically or with any ration.

broncos SB2010
01-28-2012, 11:32 AM
It didn't. Go actually watch the play he was "injured" on. There's a difference between getting bruised in routine football plays and actually being injured.

Comparing Tebow to Vick or Cunningham is a non-starter. Tebow is much, much tougher than either of those guys. Eyesight proves it.

so because Tebow is thicker, that makes him indestructible? You don't think being "bruised in routine plays" can affect his QB ability? You guys are unbelievable. Every single snap a player is on the field he has a risk of injury. If you add in being hit more often the chances of injury go up. That is just simple math. How many RBs went down with injuries this season? How many played hurt? Do you really think it is a wise move to have your starting QB be a target so often? Tebow was the 39th ranked runner by attempts. If you add in all the times he is hit in the pocket, it's just a matter of time before he gets hurt.

broncos SB2010
01-28-2012, 11:37 AM
It just boggles my mind that fans are so adament that Tebow can keep running the ball 10 times a game every game and never get hurt.

I'm really starting to think that with regards to Tebow, it's just impossible to discuss him logically or with any ration.

you and me both.......

BroncoooJohnson
01-28-2012, 11:40 AM
anyone who votes "yes" that Tebow can run as much as he did this past season and not get hurt are just fooling themselves. Maybe he could for a season here or there but he would not be able to sustain that for extended seasons.

Most of the most devastating hits to quarterbacks are when he is in the pocket. How many times have you seen him get demolished when he's past the line of scrimmage? It's moreso defenders getting out of his way than vice-versa.

He's built like a fullback. Any other quarterback would be facing men that are physically superior, Timmy is in better shape, and is a better athlete than most of the men trying to tackle him.

dork54
01-28-2012, 11:41 AM
In the NFL, everyone gets hurt. They all do. Brady got hurt....and missed almost the whole season. Brees was seriously injured. Big Ben....Cutler......Manning. Except for Farve, every QB gets hurt. I don't care if you run the ball 10 times or pass 40 times a game....you ARE gonna get hurt.

Can Tebow last longer with less running? Maybe, but that offensive line better get better of any Bronco QB is gonna get hammered.

tat2matt
01-28-2012, 11:42 AM
so because Tebow is thicker, that makes him indestructible? You don't think being "bruised in routine plays" can affect his QB ability? You guys are unbelievable. Every single snap a player is on the field he has a risk of injury. If you add in being hit more often the chances of injury go up. That is just simple math. How many RBs went down with injuries this season? How many played hurt? Do you really think it is a wise move to have your starting QB be a target so often? Tebow was the 39th ranked runner by attempts. If you add in all the times he is hit in the pocket, it's just a matter of time before he gets hurt.

C'mon, man, you've been around long enough to know that logic has no place in discussions about Tebow.

broncos SB2010
01-28-2012, 11:55 AM
Most of the most devastating hits to quarterbacks are when he is in the pocket. How many times have you seen him get demolished when he's past the line of scrimmage? It's moreso defenders getting out of his way than vice-versa.

He's built like a fullback. Any other quarterback would be facing men that are physically superior, Timmy is in better shape, and is a better athlete than most of the men trying to tackle him.

so FBs never get injured. Ok, thx, I didn't realize that. I thought they did. I also didn't realize that Tebow is in better shape than most of the LBs, Safeties and DEs in the league. My mistake.

What ended TDs career? oh yea, a routine tackle.
What ended APs season? Oh yea, routine running play and blew out his knee.
What ended Mark Ingram's season? Oh yea, a toe injury.
how do most guys get injured? Oh yea, on routine plays and fluke circumstances.

All it takes is one fluke play to roll an ankle, pop a shoulder, hurt a hand, damage a knee and tebow is out. Common sense says you want to limit those odds to your starting QB. This discussion just shows how little common sense some of you have.

broncos SB2010
01-28-2012, 11:58 AM
C'mon, man, you've been around long enough to know that logic has no place in discussions about Tebow.

I keep forgetting that :(

mojo0730
01-28-2012, 12:02 PM
so FBs never get injured. Ok, thx, I didn't realize that. I thought they did. I also didn't realize that Tebow is in better shape than most of the LBs, Safeties and DEs in the league. My mistake.

What ended TDs career? oh yea, a routine tackle.
What ended APs season? Oh yea, routine running play and blew out his knee.
What ended Mark Ingram's season? Oh yea, a toe injury.
how do most guys get injured? Oh yea, on routine plays and fluke circumstances.

All it takes is one fluke play to roll an ankle, pop a shoulder, hurt a hand, damage a knee and tebow is out. Common sense says you want to limit those odds to your starting QB. This discussion just shows how little common sense some of you have.

It's two-fold.

By arguing to allow Tebow to continue to run it as much as he has, the fanatics automatically give themselves an excuse in case the Broncos do ultimately limit his runs (which is inevitable and logical) that if he struggles they're "not allowing Tebow to be Tebow".

Also, Tebow's running ability is (admittingly) an exciting part of his game and the only thing he really does well at this point. So it's natural his hardcore fans would ignore sane, rational arguments against him running the football so much and argue that because he's built bigger it's impossible for him to get injured.

I'm just brushing it off. The last discussion on this I got into with a Tebow fanatic ended with the guy admitting he didn't care if Tebow had a long, sustainable career nor did he think he would have anyway - that Tebow just needs to be Tebow as long as he could and let the pieces fall as they may, more or less. Like I said, rational thought and logic just don't apply when it comes to discussions relating to Tim Tebow.

Bernie24
01-28-2012, 12:34 PM
Idk if you guys realized this but every player in the NFL is at risk of geting hurt

Tebow didn't even miss any games this year. I don't see your point "logical" fans lmao. Does calling everyone else stupid make you feel smart?

Tebow is just as likely to get hit while in the pocket as he is running. I really don't understand the point of this argument. QB's touch the ball every play...they are prone to injury. Tebow isn't different. Every QB is prone to injury. Some (Vick) get hurt more and no one sees articles telling him to stop running. (fan of Vick by the way don't think i'm trying to attack him but he is injury prone)

I think Tebow will stop running when he isn't as athletic if he's playing when he's older. But as of now there's no reason to tell him to stop. He's gotten hurt twice in two years and missed zero games.

Ahrum
01-28-2012, 12:37 PM
When Tebow runs, his knees are no longer off limits. Someone's going to get him right in the kneecap one day.

Bernie24
01-28-2012, 12:50 PM
When Tebow runs, his knees are no longer off limits. Someone's going to get him right in the kneecap one day.
You think defensive players actually make a conscious effort to not hit the QB anywhere they can?

They don't care about the new rules (understandably). They have on thought when rushing the passer "Get QB".

Ahrum
01-28-2012, 12:52 PM
You think defensive players actually make a conscious effort to not hit the QB anywhere they can?

They don't care about the new rules (understandably). They have on thought when rushing the passer "Get QB".

Actually, I do. Hit the QB in the knees, get a 15 yarder.

They specifically learn nowadays to not hit them in the knees, no matter what. Even Harrison doesn't do it anymore. Instead, he goes after the knees of runners and receivers. See Eric Decker.

Bernie24
01-28-2012, 12:56 PM
Actually, I do. Hit the QB in the knees, get a 15 yarder.

They specifically learn nowadays to not hit them in the knees, no matter what. Even Harrison doesn't do it anymore. Instead, he goes after the knees of runners and receivers. See Eric Decker.

Just because they practice not doing it doens't mean they consciously don't

Game time goes so fast you can't really expect it. I don't think the new rules make defenses shy away at all in that consideration.

Giddy'up
01-28-2012, 01:00 PM
The type of injury he sustained was from being static in the pocket,,, at least on the run he has a chance to slide get out of bounds or deflect oncoming hits,,, in the pocket you absorb 100% of the hit.

Ahrum
01-28-2012, 01:02 PM
Just because they practice not doing it doens't mean they consciously don't

Game time goes so fast you can't really expect it. I don't think the new rules make defenses shy away at all in that consideration.

Welp, I think that defenses are consciously aware of the new rules and detrimenting their team by giving the offense over 1/10 of the entire field for free.

I think safeties think twice about hitting a receiver while he's still in the air nowadays. I think pass rushers do everything they can to avoid hitting the QB in the head or knees while they try to get the sack.

Difference of opinion. Either way, going strictly by the rules, not by either of our feelings, Tebow has a higher chance of getting his knees blown out as a runner than a QB.

tat2matt
01-28-2012, 01:03 PM
Idk if you guys realized this but every player in the NFL is at risk of geting hurt

Of course everyone knows this, which is why the "He's so big and athletic" argument is baseless. It's also why choosing to expose your QB to more opportunities to be hurt is a bad choice.


Tebow didn't even miss any games this year. I don't see your point "logical" fans lmao. Does calling everyone else stupid make you feel smart?

Tebow is just as likely to get hit while in the pocket as he is running. I really don't understand the point of this argument. QB's touch the ball every play...they are prone to injury. Tebow isn't different. Every QB is prone to injury.

I said earlier and I will repeat the logic...the fact that your QB touches the ball every offensive play and is expected to make things happen every down is the exact reason that you would want to lessen his injury potential. Just because anyone could be injured on any play doesn't mean you should just let your QB run amok and say "Whatever happens, happens." Saying things like "He's built like a fullback" is completely silly; fullbacks, linebackers...guys who are as big and as athletic as he is get injured in the open field a lot. Inviting that kind of pounding on the guy who is supposed be leading your offense on every down is dumb.


Some (Vick) get hurt more and no one sees articles telling him to stop running. (fan of Vick by the way don't think i'm trying to attack him but he is injury prone)

It's not just Vick. V. Young, McNabb, McNair, Cunningham...those guys all spent more time nursing injuries than the average pocket QB. There is a reason that QBs have much longer careers than do RBs. The body, no matter how big or how athletic, can only take so much abuse.


I think Tebow will stop running when he isn't as athletic if he's playing when he's older. But as of now there's no reason to tell him to stop. He's gotten hurt twice in two years and missed zero games.

He's fortunate. He will get to that point of being "older" much more quickly if he continues to run too much.

No one is saying that he should never run, but asking him to carry a load similar to a RB is just begging for disaster. It's not difficult to see the logic in that.

broncos SB2010
01-28-2012, 01:09 PM
Idk if you guys realized this but every player in the NFL is at risk of geting hurt

Tebow didn't even miss any games this year. I don't see your point "logical" fans lmao. Does calling everyone else stupid make you feel smart?

Tebow is just as likely to get hit while in the pocket as he is running. I really don't understand the point of this argument. QB's touch the ball every play...they are prone to injury. Tebow isn't different. Every QB is prone to injury. Some (Vick) get hurt more and no one sees articles telling him to stop running. (fan of Vick by the way don't think i'm trying to attack him but he is injury prone)

I think Tebow will stop running when he isn't as athletic if he's playing when he's older. But as of now there's no reason to tell him to stop. He's gotten hurt twice in two years and missed zero games.

That statement is ridiculous. Odds are he will be hit running are probably close to 90% or nearly every time. Is he likely to get hit in the pocket nearly everytime?

tat2matt
01-28-2012, 01:17 PM
That statement is ridiculous. Odds are he will be hit running are probably close to 90% or nearly every time. Is he likely to get hit in the pocket nearly everytime?

Wouldn't matter. He's built like a steel ox, he can take the pounding...right?

I guess the difference is when he's in the pocket he becomes far less super-heroic thanks to his inferior human offensive line.

Bernie24
01-28-2012, 01:18 PM
That statement is ridiculous. Odds are he will be hit running are probably close to 90% or nearly every time. Is he likely to get hit in the pocket nearly everytime?

I meant to type "hurt" not hit sorry

Bernie24
01-28-2012, 01:21 PM
Wouldn't matter. He's built like a steel ox, he can take the pounding...right?

I guess the difference is when he's in the pocket he becomes far less super-heroic thanks to his inferior human offensive line.

I literally never said anything close to that but okay i guess lol

Buckin' Bronco
01-28-2012, 01:44 PM
Football is a contact sport, injuries are bound to occur regardless of whether the QB remains in the pocket or scrambles. It's not like Tim breaks out of the pocket and seeks out defenders to run over. The only time I've ever seen him try to run someone over was for a score or a key play in a late game drive. Pocket QB's can get hurt on any given play just like a mobile QB can. In my opinion most devastating injuries to QB's tend to occur in the pocket when they get blindsided. When Tim scrambles I believe he has more control and protection then he would running than being in the pocket in a lot of cases. People tend to make big issues out of minute things and this is no different. Athletes sustain injuries, they always have and they always will. There is not one QB who has played football injury free for his entire career!

nyuk nyuk
01-28-2012, 01:48 PM
He got hurt in the pocket.......................

Let not the truth get in the way of a troll article. Tebow sustained a crushing injury inside the pocket.

One thing I'm sick of is lying sports writers.

Nimrod
01-28-2012, 02:11 PM
It just boggles my mind that fans are so adament that Tebow can keep running the ball 10 times a game every game and never get hurt.

I'm really starting to think that with regards to Tebow, it's just impossible to discuss him logically or with any ration.

1. I don't think anyone is saying he will NEVER get hurt. That's just silly. This is the NFL we are talking about. Are you suggesting if he doesn't run he will NEVER get hurt? Of course you aren't.

2. Many of us feel the premiss that running automatically means injury it like saying standing in the pocket automatically mean NO injury.

3. Everyone gets injured to some degree or another in the NFL. The suggestion that you can take that information and pug in some players style as automatically causing an injury is over reaching to many of us. It's like saying if Dale Earnhart, Jr. wears wrangler jeans he will get in a wreck on the race track. No kidding!

#Broncosfan
01-28-2012, 02:12 PM
Let not the truth get in the way of a troll article. Tebow sustained a crushing injury inside the pocket.

One thing I'm sick of is lying sports writers.

Sometimes I wonder if they write this nonsense just to have something to talk about, because it's clearly not true. The only thing worse are the detractors that regurgitate these articles as fact. This topic is as stupid as comparing the 1-4 start of a proven failure veteran QB to the ending of a young first year starting QB that made it to the playoffs.

-Rod-
01-28-2012, 03:49 PM
In the open field, Tebow is a 240-pound runner seeing the smaller defenders that are going to hit him, so he can defend himself.

In the pocket, Tebow is not always seeing the bigger defenders that are going to hit him because he has to keep his eyes downfield.

And he is much more vulnerable in the pocket as a stationary target. Beyond the line scrimmage, Tebow can use his speed, run over DBs, run out of bounds, dive, use lateral movements to avoid the big hit.

Also, it makes no sense to cry for a "rational" discussion and, at the same time, ignore the fact that Tebow is bigger than most NFL RBs.

Tebow does not have to stop running, he has to throw the ball better and protect the ball.

All the Orange
01-28-2012, 04:15 PM
I didn't vote. I just want to say this is ludicrous! All of those injuries came as a result of Tebow getting pounded in the pocket. That is when he was injured not while he was running. This is beyond silly, let the guy play his game.

broncos SB2010
01-28-2012, 06:01 PM
No. Not all injuries result from a single hit on a single play; some are the cumulative result of repeated collisions. But when a quarterback is getting hit more, he's increasing his chance of suffering both kinds of injuries.

stop posting such rational, intelligent nonsense!!! What's wrong with you!! :)

samparnell
01-28-2012, 06:03 PM
Tebow will be helped by a series based offense using a power run game with assignment blocking. He will be a rushing threat booting out of play action. The D will put a spy on him which will take a defender out of coverage. Option will still be a possibility when in direct snap/shotgun formations.

sb306
01-28-2012, 07:41 PM
Something I've always wondered about the argument that Tim can't keep running: People always want a primary back, someone to take those 20 carries a game. Why would we expect them to be able to do that, but not expect Tim to take 10-12 a game?

This is something that always confused me also. Doesnt make much sense to be honest.

jcdavey
01-28-2012, 07:43 PM
well....vick adjusted (became more of a pocket passer), i mean he still gets hella injured, but who knows how much of that is because he was out of football for 2 full years?

jcdavey
01-28-2012, 07:45 PM
you could probably argue that the sacks he took were more the reason for his late season injury

he took alot of sacks.....

shawinkerpoppin
01-28-2012, 07:53 PM
i think people are missing the point and only are pointing to one bad hit he sustained in the pocket and not seeing all this hits that add up when he runs with the ball. the QB shouldnt walk away from the game feeling the the RB does after the game. all those hits are wear and tear to different parts of his body. most iimortnatly his arms shoulders head. bad enough he gets hit in the pocket as most QBs do but he is taking more abuse than necesary. im curious to find out how many hits he has taken this season from all the games in the pocket and running as opposed to other QBs. maybe im wrong maybe im right idk.

Nimrod
01-28-2012, 08:05 PM
i think people are missing the point and only are pointing to one bad hit he sustained in the pocket and not seeing all this hits that add up when he runs with the ball. the QB shouldnt walk away from the game feeling the the RB does after the game. all those hits are wear and tear to different parts of his body. most iimortnatly his arms shoulders head. bad enough he gets hit in the pocket as most QBs do but he is taking more abuse than necesary. im curious to find out how many hits he has taken this season from all the games in the pocket and running as opposed to other QBs. maybe im wrong maybe im right idk.

He clearly took a lot more hits than many QBs this year because they got their clocks clean standing in the pocket and didn't play again.

:P

Seriously - I do get the wear and tear argument just not the if he runs he will get hurt. All NFL players get hurt. I can tell you with a lot of certainty he will eventually get knocked out of playing time if he becomes a prototypical pocket passer. That the problem I have with this whole discussion. His improving his pocket passing skills is necessary for so many reasons but getting hurt is right at the bottom IMHO.

denver9ers
01-28-2012, 08:37 PM
http://www.livestrong.com/article/15527-long-average-career-nfl-player/

Taken from nflpa numbers.

Why would you would want your quarterback, who is supposed to have the longest average career, to spend substantial time acting like a running back, who has the shortest average career?

broncos SB2010
01-28-2012, 09:02 PM
http://www.livestrong.com/article/15527-long-average-career-nfl-player/

Taken from nflpa numbers.

Why would you would want your quarterback, who is supposed to have the longest average career, to spend substantial time acting like a running back, who has the shortest average career?

that's just crazy talk. Our QB is tougher than all the RBs and all of the defensive players in the league...........ever!

denver9ers
01-28-2012, 09:05 PM
that's just crazy talk. Our QB is tougher than all the RBs and all of the defensive players in the league...........ever!

The hits only make him stronger :D

broncos SB2010
01-28-2012, 09:13 PM
the hits only make him stronger :d

hulk smash!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

caddie22
01-28-2012, 09:29 PM
http://www.livestrong.com/article/15527-long-average-career-nfl-player/

Taken from nflpa numbers.

Why would you would want your quarterback, who is supposed to have the longest average career, to spend substantial time acting like a running back, who has the shortest average career?

Honestly, I didn't see him taking huge hits when he ran the ball this season. I can really only recall the Chicago game when he got hurt on a running play. I did see him get killed in the pocket vs. the Pats in the playoffs though.
If he improves reading NFL defenses and we are more effective on underneath routes, his hits and sacks will dramatically reduce.
The threat of run at the qb position is invaluable, it opens huge windows in the passing game and large holes in the running game.

#Broncosfan
01-28-2012, 09:50 PM
He doesn't try to pound his way up the middle, like you would see most RB's do several times per game. He is an elusive runner, and he doesn't take the kind of chances RB's do. He may take some hits, but nothing comparable to actual RB's.

All the Orange
01-29-2012, 01:06 AM
i think people are missing the point and only are pointing to one bad hit he sustained in the pocket and not seeing all this hits that add up when he runs with the ball. the QB shouldnt walk away from the game feeling the the RB does after the game. all those hits are wear and tear to different parts of his body. most iimortnatly his arms shoulders head. bad enough he gets hit in the pocket as most QBs do but he is taking more abuse than necesary. im curious to find out how many hits he has taken this season from all the games in the pocket and running as opposed to other QBs. maybe im wrong maybe im right idk.

The problem with this is that it is faulty logic. It's like saying you shouldn't swim because you might drown or you shouldn't eat because you might choke. If you play football you have a chance of getting injured. I'm not sure if anybody told you, but they usually try to hit the guy with the ball. If you play it might happen.

Here is a list of pocket QBs injured this year:

Andy Dalton
Matt Shaub
Alex Smith
Jason Campbell
Kerry Collins
Peyton Manning
Mathew Stafford
Sam Bradford
Ben Roethlisberger
Tony Romo
Matt Leinart
Matt Moore
Matt Hasselbeck
Ryan Fitzpatrick
Kevin Kolb
Christian Ponder
Matt Cassel
Jay Cutler
Rex Grossman
Colt McCoy
Kyle Orton (finger lol)
A.J. Feeley
T.J. Yates
Tom Brady

THE NUMBER OF TIMES TIM TEBOW APPEARED ON THE INJURY REPORT IS ZERO!!! I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. Is your entire argument..."umm dude well he seems to get hit a lot and um dude that really looks like it hurts man" Guess what, Tebow knows, Tebow doesn't care. The one time he did get injured was when the offensive line had a collapse of epic proportions and he was forced to stand in the pocket and take hit after hit after hit. Obviously the facts speak for themselves. If anything, pocket passers take more damage most likely because they cannot prepare themselves for the hits.

/rant off

//thread

shawinkerpoppin
01-29-2012, 01:52 AM
The problem with this is that it is faulty logic. It's like saying you shouldn't swim because you might drown or you shouldn't eat because you might choke. If you play football you have a chance of getting injured. I'm not sure if anybody told you, but they usually try to hit the guy with the ball. If you play it might happen.

Here is a list of pocket QBs injured this year:

Andy Dalton
Matt Shaub
Alex Smith
Jason Campbell
Kerry Collins
Peyton Manning
Mathew Stafford
Sam Bradford
Ben Roethlisberger
Tony Romo
Matt Leinart
Matt Moore
Matt Hasselbeck
Ryan Fitzpatrick
Kevin Kolb
Christian Ponder
Matt Cassel
Jay Cutler
Rex Grossman
Colt McCoy
Kyle Orton (finger lol)
A.J. Feeley
T.J. Yates
Tom Brady

THE NUMBER OF TIMES TIM TEBOW APPEARED ON THE INJURY REPORT IS ZERO!!! I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. Is your entire argument..."umm dude well he seems to get hit a lot and um dude that really looks like it hurts man" Guess what, Tebow knows, Tebow doesn't care. The one time he did get injured was when the offensive line had a collapse of epic proportions and he was forced to stand in the pocket and take hit after hit after hit. Obviously the facts speak for themselves. If anything, pocket passers take more damage most likely because they cannot prepare themselves for the hits.

/rant off

//thread

another person that fails to see the actual point. Many are going by "he didnt get hurt last year except one time in the pocket so he can never get hurt running the ball so much". All those hits he takes on the option plays and direct snaps and all those times he is running are breaking down the body. He takes that damage in addition to the damage he takes from the pocket. He is a bigger so he can prevent the big injuries unlike some of the smaller guys but the damage is still being done. He has taken a good amount of vicious hits this year and just becuase he appears to be fine and get up quick doesnt mean it didnt make an impact. He wont have a very long career playing this way and as time goes on and the body breaks down from all those hits you will see the injuries happen more frequently. Look at vick. He wasnt as big as tebow is and he took more abuse than your average QB. Now he can barely stay on the field. It seems like until the big injury happens alot of yall will think he is superman and can take hits all day unfazed.

Npba900
01-29-2012, 05:58 AM
Just thought I ask, can Tim keep running the way he did this year?

Link (http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19838765)

Elway is greatly concerned as well. John knows from experience. Elway knows its just a matter of time before the injury bugs start to become more frequent.

johnjoda
01-29-2012, 06:16 AM
Wow, i am surprised by the results of this. An NFL team can not make it through the season with a single running back anymore, but people believe Tim is immune to the same injuries?

This is an eye opener. The realities of football are not being considered here. D's want any reason for a free shot at a QB, and even more with Tim.

I am concerned that Tim can make it through a season playing the way he does, and I believe he could have a shortened career if he does not adjust.

broncos SB2010
01-29-2012, 06:57 AM
The problem with this is that it is faulty logic. It's like saying you shouldn't swim because you might drown or you shouldn't eat because you might choke. If you play football you have a chance of getting injured. I'm not sure if anybody told you, but they usually try to hit the guy with the ball. If you play it might happen.

Here is a list of pocket QBs injured this year:

Andy Dalton
Matt Shaub
Alex Smith
Jason Campbell
Kerry Collins
Peyton Manning
Mathew Stafford
Sam Bradford
Ben Roethlisberger
Tony Romo
Matt Leinart
Matt Moore
Matt Hasselbeck
Ryan Fitzpatrick
Kevin Kolb
Christian Ponder
Matt Cassel
Jay Cutler
Rex Grossman
Colt McCoy
Kyle Orton (finger lol)
A.J. Feeley
T.J. Yates
Tom Brady

THE NUMBER OF TIMES TIM TEBOW APPEARED ON THE INJURY REPORT IS ZERO!!! I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. Is your entire argument..."umm dude well he seems to get hit a lot and um dude that really looks like it hurts man" Guess what, Tebow knows, Tebow doesn't care. The one time he did get injured was when the offensive line had a collapse of epic proportions and he was forced to stand in the pocket and take hit after hit after hit. Obviously the facts speak for themselves. If anything, pocket passers take more damage most likely because they cannot prepare themselves for the hits.

/rant off

//thread

why don't you make a list of all the injured players that got hurt on routine plays. I'll help you get started. These are the Broncos on IR and doesn't count the guys who just missed games. How did they all get hurt?

83 Dell, Mark
42 Fannin, Mario
73 Kuper, Chris
46 Larsen, Spencer
27 Moreno, Knowshon
22 Thompson, Syd'Quan
41 Vaughn, Cassius
99 Vickerson, Kevin
94 Warren, Ty

CoryWinget81
01-29-2012, 09:44 AM
This is just like the thread where Tebow fans were actually saying that he'd never sustain an injury in the NFL.

I'm gonna go find it, because its as funny as this one.

Mk2_Tebow
01-29-2012, 09:49 AM
Tebow won't stop running. His injuries happened in the pocket. He was hit while trying to throw the ball. Tebow: 122 rushing attempts. Cam Newton: 126 rushing attempts. And no one says Newton should stop running... This "run, don't run" thing will not be an issue if the passing yards increase. Such discussion happens because the Broncos had the fewest passing attempts and a running QB that defies the conventional ways. Once Tebow starts missing games because of his running ability, he will adapt like every mobile QB that gets older. But since he got hurt while playing like a pocket passer, I see no reason to change his style. The passing attempts must go up. Let him throw on 1st down. The yards through the air must improve, the completion percentage must improve. If the passing game gets better, everyone will stop worryng about how many rushing attempts Tebow has.

There is almost too much logic and common sense in this post .

All the Orange
01-29-2012, 11:08 AM
another person that fails to see the actual point. Many are going by "he didnt get hurt last year except one time in the pocket so he can never get hurt running the ball so much". All those hits he takes on the option plays and direct snaps and all those times he is running are breaking down the body. He takes that damage in addition to the damage he takes from the pocket. He is a bigger so he can prevent the big injuries unlike some of the smaller guys but the damage is still being done. He has taken a good amount of vicious hits this year and just becuase he appears to be fine and get up quick doesnt mean it didnt make an impact. He wont have a very long career playing this way and as time goes on and the body breaks down from all those hits you will see the injuries happen more frequently. Look at vick. He wasnt as big as tebow is and he took more abuse than your average QB. Now he can barely stay on the field. It seems like until the big injury happens alot of yall will think he is superman and can take hits all day unfazed.


So, on Sundays in the late summer, fall, and early winter they have this thing called the National Football League. It's actually pretty neat, professional football teams from around the country compete. You should check it out! If you watched, you would see the horrific injuries that pocket passers suffer year after year after year from standing immobile in the pocket while getting hit full speed by 250-300lb men! Concussions, broken legs, broken ribs, the list goes on. You should really try to check it out next year though, they usually play it on TV on Sundays, but you can sometimes watch monday nights and Saturdays as well.

Nobody is saying Tebow won't get injured. They are saying it doesn't matter if you stand in the pocket or run around like a banshee, it is the game of football. People get hurt. Standing in the pocket doesn't change that. For reference see any Detroit Lions game, or look at the massive list of injured pocket QBs (about 6 of which were placed on IR) that I posted.

All the Orange
01-29-2012, 11:11 AM
why don't you make a list of all the injured players that got hurt on routine plays. I'll help you get started. These are the Broncos on IR and doesn't count the guys who just missed games. How did they all get hurt?

83 Dell, Mark
42 Fannin, Mario
73 Kuper, Chris
46 Larsen, Spencer
27 Moreno, Knowshon
22 Thompson, Syd'Quan
41 Vaughn, Cassius
99 Vickerson, Kevin
94 Warren, Ty

I assume you're adding weight to my argument, if not I'm missing your point. But yes, a good example of people that were injured from just playing football, just like the supposedly protected pocket passers.

roperdoug
01-29-2012, 12:52 PM
Just thought I ask, can Tim keep running the way he did this year?

Link (http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19838765)

I thought we were doing enough experimenting in 2011. No, I've seen were the quarterback rotation worked in college and when they haven't. Have you ever seen a pro team successfully use a rotation. It's enough confusion when they rotate linesmen in and out.
We need to spend more time building several solid but flexible offensive schemes that Tim and the Offense and work on and get in sync.

broncos SB2010
01-29-2012, 01:09 PM
I assume you're adding weight to my argument, if not I'm missing your point. But yes, a good example of people that were injured from just playing football, just like the supposedly protected pocket passers.

the point is, the more times a player is exposed to taking a hit, the more likely it is that player will be injured.

neckbeard
01-29-2012, 03:10 PM
I assume you're adding weight to my argument, if not I'm missing your point. But yes, a good example of people that were injured from just playing football, just like the supposedly protected pocket passers.
Just which QBs were placed on IR this season? How were they hurt? Inside the pocket or outside? I can't find a comprehensive list, so I'll just ask for everyone to throw in what they know about how NFL QBs wound up on the IR in 2011.

I'll start.

Jay Cutler - broke his thumb while trying to tackle a defender running back a pick - OUTSIDE THE POCKET.

Oilersfan34
01-29-2012, 06:17 PM
[QUOTE=kingpins9;4263939]It didn't. Go actually watch the play he was "injured" on. There's a difference between getting bruised in routine football plays and actually being injured.

Comparing Tebow to Vick or Cunningham is a non-starter. Tebow is much, much tougher than either of those guys. Eyesight proves it.[/QUOTE

Yeah cunningham and Vick were / are better qb's. Cunningham was tough as nails. He took shots on a regular basis that would put normal men out. You clearly never say Randall play.

Tron4JC
01-29-2012, 08:54 PM
Randall also started in first season passing for 42 percent. He himself said he was no more accurate than Tebow when he started out and believe Tebow will go on to a very good career.

Pistachia
01-29-2012, 09:05 PM
The problem with this is that it is faulty logic. It's like saying you shouldn't swim because you might drown or you shouldn't eat because you might choke. If you play football you have a chance of getting injured. I'm not sure if anybody told you, but they usually try to hit the guy with the ball. If you play it might happen.


You seem to assume that all risk is equal. Swimming in a shark-infested ocean is more dangerous than swimming in a pool. Eating sushi in a filthy dive is more dangerous than a cheese sandwich.

Football is, in fact, dangerous. That doesn't mean it's not possible to make decisions which dramatically increase the already significant risks. A QB frequently running a ball is just more dangerous than passing, period. Risks cannot be avoided, but they can be calculated and managed.

All the Orange
01-30-2012, 12:04 AM
You seem to assume that all risk is equal. Swimming in a shark-infested ocean is more dangerous than swimming in a pool. Eating sushi in a filthy dive is more dangerous than a cheese sandwich.

Football is, in fact, dangerous. That doesn't mean it's not possible to make decisions which dramatically increase the already significant risks. A QB frequently running a ball is just more dangerous than passing, period. Risks cannot be avoided, but they can be calculated and managed.

You all are obviously unwilling to listen to facts and reason. Look at the laundry list of injured pocket QBs. W/e though if you can't see the difference in between preparing for a run and getting smashed in the pocket, and don't understand the physics difference from the two I really can't help you. You can 'take a hit' much better when you are ready for it.


Z71qrrSFa5c
Can you really not see the difference?
x5otWaHameY

But seriously why don't you get it? Is it the facts? The videos? The IR report? The list of injured pocket QBs? The physics difference from taking a stationary hit to preparing for a hit? Or just the stubbornness of sticking to one point?

Anyway, I've got better things to do then continuously point out facts on a message board. Time will tell.

neckbeard
01-30-2012, 06:01 AM
The problem with this is that it is faulty logic. It's like saying you shouldn't swim because you might drown or you shouldn't eat because you might choke. If you play football you have a chance of getting injured. I'm not sure if anybody told you, but they usually try to hit the guy with the ball. If you play it might happen.

Here is a list of pocket QBs injured this year:

Andy Dalton
Matt Shaub
Alex Smith
Jason Campbell
Kerry Collins
Peyton Manning
Mathew Stafford
Sam Bradford
Ben Roethlisberger
Tony Romo
Matt Leinart
Matt Moore
Matt Hasselbeck
Ryan Fitzpatrick
Kevin Kolb
Christian Ponder
Matt Cassel
Jay Cutler
Rex Grossman
Colt McCoy
Kyle Orton (finger lol)
A.J. Feeley
T.J. Yates
Tom Brady

THE NUMBER OF TIMES TIM TEBOW APPEARED ON THE INJURY REPORT IS ZERO!!! I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. Is your entire argument..."umm dude well he seems to get hit a lot and um dude that really looks like it hurts man" Guess what, Tebow knows, Tebow doesn't care. The one time he did get injured was when the offensive line had a collapse of epic proportions and he was forced to stand in the pocket and take hit after hit after hit. Obviously the facts speak for themselves. If anything, pocket passers take more damage most likely because they cannot prepare themselves for the hits.

/rant off

//thread
OK.

First of all, injuries happen to everyone in the NFL. Being listed (or not) on an injury report isn't always reliable. Tom Brady was on the injury report every week for YEARS and he still played.

Also, not all of the QBs listed were unable to play.

Third, not all of the "pocket QBs" were injured in the pocket. For example, Jay Cutler broke his thumb trying to tackle a Defender who had picked him off. It happened along the sideline.

Finally, yes there are far more QB injuries in the pocket than outside simply because that's where almost all QBs spend almost all of their time. It's like saying 99% of all shark attacks occur within 6 feet of shore. It doesn't mean that you're safer from a shark attack 15 feet out, it's just that 99% of swimmers stay within 6 ft of the shore...

Yhawk
01-30-2012, 08:22 AM
More people die each year crossing the street at the crosswalk than they do jaywalking. Why? Because the crosswalk gives people a false sense of security. This is why qbs get hurt more in the pocket.

As much running Tebow did this year his only significant injury happened in the pocket. Hell as much running Tebow did in college his worst injury (concussion) happened when he was in the pocket setting up for the pass. His football career is a perfect example on why the pocket is still the most dangerous place for a qb.

And if you people haven't noticed, Tebow now slides at the end his runs now. It is not like he is getting pounded on every run.

neckbeard
01-30-2012, 11:17 AM
More people die each year crossing the street at the crosswalk than they do jaywalking. Why? Because the crosswalk gives people a false sense of security. This is why qbs get hurt more in the pocket.
Really? You don't think that the coaches stress the dangers to look for with their QBs? That it isn't gone over repeatedly?


As much running Tebow did this year his only significant injury happened in the pocket. Hell as much running Tebow did in college his worst injury (concussion) happened when he was in the pocket setting up for the pass. His football career is a perfect example on why the pocket is still the most dangerous place for a qb.
The pocket is a dangerous place for TEBOW, not QBs in general. Because Tebow has never learned how to use the pocket properly since he's always had his safety valve of scrambling.


And if you people haven't noticed, Tebow now slides at the end his runs now. It is not like he is getting pounded on every run.
And it only took two seasons to teach a running QB to slide. Kind of makes you wonder just how coachable Tebow really is...

SBboundBRONCOS
01-30-2012, 11:37 AM
where are the middle group of people who think IF tebow can become a good QB in this league they dont want him taking more hits than necessary just because he can


and yes obviously more QBs get hurt in the pocket . . . and the grass is green and water is wet

MaloCS
01-30-2012, 01:57 PM
If I recall correctly Tebow got hurt IN the pocket not out of it.

Yhawk
01-30-2012, 02:05 PM
Really? You don't think that the coaches stress the dangers to look for with their QBs? That it isn't gone over repeatedly?


As if any QB needs to be taught "Don't get hit". A QB gets hurt when his confidence in his offense line exceeds their competence.



The pocket is a dangerous place for TEBOW, not QBs in general. Because Tebow has never learned how to use the pocket properly since he's always had his safety valve of scrambling.


If that was true then we would be talking about how injury prone he is. How much time has he missed due to injuries in the pocket during his college+pro career?




And it only took two seasons to teach a running QB to slide. Kind of makes you wonder just how coachable Tebow really is...

I don't know, let us know the other running QBs who learned faster.

LSIGRAD09
01-30-2012, 03:33 PM
Yes, QBs can get hurt in the pocket. QBs can also get smacked when they run.
Truth is, if Tebow keeps up his running, he is going to get more in more hits, in addition to any he will take in the pocket.

So he will get double the punishment.

I'm very surprised at the amount of people who think he can continue running so much.

elway93
01-30-2012, 03:58 PM
I don't think any quarterback can hold up running the ball that much. If he wants to last more than five or six years in the league I think he definitely needs to cut down on the running and work on being able to take games over from the pocket.

neckbeard
01-30-2012, 04:49 PM
Really? You don't think that the coaches stress the dangers to look for with their QBs? That it isn't gone over repeatedly?As if any QB needs to be taught "Don't get hit". A QB gets hurt when his confidence in his offense line exceeds their competence.
Yes, they do. Things happen a lot faster in the NFL then they do in college. Coaches understand this even if fans don't. So they DO teach their QBs to recognize dangerous situations and how to avoid them. No team wants to risk losing their starter and having to depend on the backup.



The pocket is a dangerous place for TEBOW, not QBs in general. Because Tebow has never learned how to use the pocket properly since he's always had his safety valve of scrambling.If that was true then we would be talking about how injury prone he is. How much time has he missed due to injuries in the pocket during his college+pro career?
It's just been stated that the only really serious injuries Tebow has ever suffered - either in college or the pros - has been in the pocket. It's a dangerous place for Timmy. Why? Because he doesn't know how to stay safe there. He bolts for open ground whenever there's a problem in there.



And it only took two seasons to teach a running QB to slide. Kind of makes you wonder just how coachable Tebow really is...I don't know, let us know the other running QBs who learned faster.
Come on, man!

Really, how difficult is it to get thru an athlete's head that he will get hurt if he keeps trying to lower a shoulder and take a shot at a defender (where the rules don't protect a QB) as opposed to safely sliding once you've picked up a 1st down (where the rules heavily protect a QB)? If that's too tough a concept to grasp, how much "football smarts" can a QB have?

roperdoug
01-30-2012, 06:09 PM
You all are obviously unwilling to listen to facts and reason. Look at the laundry list of injured pocket QBs. W/e though if you can't see the difference in between preparing for a run and getting smashed in the pocket, and don't understand the physics difference from the two I really can't help you. You can 'take a hit' much better when you are ready for it.


Z71qrrSFa5c
Can you really not see the difference?
x5otWaHameY

But seriously why don't you get it? Is it the facts? The videos? The IR report? The list of injured pocket QBs? The physics difference from taking a stationary hit to preparing for a hit? Or just the stubbornness of sticking to one point?

Anyway, I've got better things to do then continuously point out facts on a message board. Time will tell.

I tried to point that out too! I used Mark Bunnell with the Jags. He was a scrambling quarterback until Coughlin forced him to stay in the pocket. Just about the first game he stayed in the pocket, he got broadsided and busted his knee or ankle (can't remember which) which he never got over.
I believe Ben Roethlisberger is a pocket quarterback and he got injured in the pocket. Scrambling is not for everybody but if you can to avoid a sack then run as long as it is not backward.

-Rod-
01-31-2012, 05:17 PM
"You will take bigger hits standing in the pocket than you will out in the open when you can see things."

Sean Salisbury, former NFL quarterback.

http://stationcaster.com/player_skinned.php?s=96&c=737&f=381201

ParkHill-71
01-31-2012, 05:28 PM
As a converted Tebow fan, I must say I find it funny that other Tebow supporters think this guy can with stand the punishment of the NFL linebackers, D-linemen, and hard hitting safeties for a 16 game season and if he does that, also take the abuse and physicality of the playoffs if it were to come to fruition, by running all the time like it's a college game.

The guys isn't a god. In my "opinion" I noticed the guy stopped running in the last few games even when he had open lanes and we could have used the 3 thru 4 or more yards at times. Also, in those last few games it looked as if he was tentative even when he slid. It didn't look like the same guy I watched early in the season. So I have to assume he was already hurt and didn't want to make anything worse. Thats in a shortenend season for him.

My faith in him succeeding has to do with him improving in the pocket and trusting himself to throwing receivers open. If he can do that, and (trust me) I am seriously hopeing he can, then he will be fine. If he can't learn to do that consistently, then he wont be here in Denver. This unfortunately is a fact!

For my Broncos sake, I hope he succeeds!!!!

samparnell
01-31-2012, 05:45 PM
Power run

Adjustment attacking runs

PAP/Boot

Scramble

Occasional Double Option from gun

neckbeard
01-31-2012, 06:42 PM
"You will take bigger hits standing in the pocket than you will out in the open when you can see things."

Sean Salisbury, former NFL quarterback.

http://stationcaster.com/player_skinned.php?s=96&c=737&f=381201

If the pocket is such an inherently dangerous place, then why are there so many pocket QBs and so many pocket-based offensive systems in the NFL?

Why are so many teams so willing to recklessly risk the single most important player on the roster in the death-trap that is a pocket?

Why don't they just draft all of those scrambling college QBs and just let them run free, untouched and unharmed?

:confused: