PDA

View Full Version : Jaws' QB Rankings



AC1
07-02-2012, 07:44 AM
Ron Jaworski has been ranking the starting QBs in the league. They have been counting down his rankings, revealing one new QB each day. Each segment includes a breakdown by Jaws on why the player is ranked where he is and what the player needs to do to improve and move up the rankings. I've watched most of the clips and his breakdowns are excellent, my favorite being the highly-nuanced and insightful one of Matt Ryan. Jaws, like Greg Cosell, is extremely detailed with his analysis of coaching tape and his rankings carry a lot of weight with many, including me.

By focusing on game-film analysis, Jaws makes it just about the QB. Win-loss records are reflective of the team and stats are influenced by offensive supporting cast, scheme and ran-pass bent etc, and both those parameters dilute the actual impact of the QB. It's also not a popularity contest, where votes don't have to be substantiated.

Here are his rankings so far -

10. Tony Romo, Dallas Cowboys
11. Matt Ryan, Atlanta Falcons
12. Michael Vick, Philadelphia Eagles
13. Matt Schaub, Houston Texans
14. Matthew Stafford, Detroit Lions
15. Cam Newton, Carolina Panthers
16. Alex Smith, San Francisco 49ers
17. Josh Freeman, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
18. Matt Hasselbeck, Tennessee Titans
19. Andy Dalton, Cincinnati Bengals
20. Sam Bradford, St. Louis Rams
21. Carson Palmer, Oakland Raiders
22. Matt Cassel, Kansas City Chiefs
23. Mark Sanchez, New York Jets
24. Ryan Fitzpatrick, Buffalo Bills
25. Kevin Kolb, Arizona Cardinals
26. Matt Moore, Miami Dolphins
27. Matt Flynn, Seattle Seahawks
28. Christian Ponder, Minnesota Vikings
29. Blaine Gabbert, Jacksonville Jaguars
30. Tim Tebow, New York Jets


I see the QBs left being ranked in the following order -

1. Tom Brady
2. Drew Brees
3. Eli Manning
4. Aaron Rodgers
5. Peyton Manning (the injury question drops him; if he's healthy he's number 1)
6. Ben Rothlisberger
7. Jay Cutler
8. Philip Rivers
9. Joe Flacco

What do you guys think about this series? How would you rank the remaining 9?

samparnell
07-02-2012, 08:00 AM
Eli Manning
Aaron Rodgers
Drew Brees
Ben Roethlisberger
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Jay Cutler
Philip Rivers
Joe Flacco

This is based on the recent past. This coming season will undoubtedly rearrange the order.

BroncoFanBoy
07-02-2012, 11:16 AM
1. Aaron Rodgers
2. Tom Brady
3. Drew Brees
4. Eli Manning
5. Peyton Manning
6. Philip Rivers
7. Ben Roethlisberger
8. Jay Cutler
9. Joe Flacco

BroncoFanBoy
07-02-2012, 11:17 AM
Eli Manning
Aaron Rodgers
Drew Brees
Ben Roethlisberger
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Jay Cutler
Philip Rivers
Joe Flacco

This is based on the recent past. This coming season will undoubtedly rearrange the order.

I would easily take Brady over Roethlisberger.

InElwayWeTrust
07-02-2012, 11:28 AM
1. Aaron Rodgers
2. Tom Brady
3. Peyton Manning
4. Drew Brees
5. Eli Manning
6. Ben Roethlisberger
7. Phillip Rivers
9. Joe Flacco


And that's it.

PowderAddict
07-02-2012, 12:11 PM
1. Aaron Rodgers
2. Tom Brady
3. Peyton Manning
4. Drew Brees
5. Eli Manning
6. Ben Roethlisberger
7. Phillip Rivers
9. Joe Flacco


And that's it.

:laugh:

I see what you did there :D

PowderAddict
07-02-2012, 12:14 PM
1. Aaron Rodgers
2. Peyton Manning
3. Tom Brady
4. Eli Manning
5. Drew Brees
6. Ben Roethlisberger

After that there's a bit of a dropoff

7. Phillys Rivers

Another dropoff

8. Jay Cutler
9. Joe Flacco

That's how I'd rank those 9 QB's anyways. I'd remove Jay Cutler and Joe Flacco and put in Cam Newton and Matt Schaub to round out my top 9.

samparnell
07-02-2012, 12:50 PM
I would easily take Brady over Roethlisberger.

Sure, you could flip them. I put Roethlisberger over Brady because he has won a Super Bowl more recently than Brady. That's what I meant by " ... based on the recent past." Roethlisberger is 2-1 in Super Bowls since the last time Brady won one. During that same period, Brady is 0-2. I had to come up with some rationale to rank the nine, and that's it.

samparnell
07-02-2012, 01:02 PM
1. Aaron Rodgers
2. Peyton Manning
3. Tom Brady
4. Eli Manning
5. Drew Brees
6. Ben Roethlisberger

After that there's a bit of a dropoff

7. Phillys Rivers

Another dropoff

8. Jay Cutler
9. Joe Flacco

That's how I'd rank those 9 QB's anyways. I'd remove Jay Cutler and Joe Flacco and put in Cam Newton and Matt Schaub to round out my top 9.

I don't understand no love for Eli Manning. The Giants have defeated the Pats twice in Super Bowls. In 2007 they went on the road and beat the Cowboys and the Packers in the NFCCG. Last year they crushed the Falcons, beat the Packers 37-20 in Green Bay and defeated the 9ers in OT in the NFCCG where Eli was clearly the guy (32-58-0, 316 yards and 2 TDs). What's up with ranking him behind Rodgers, his brother and Brady? He beat both Favre and Rodgers in their house and Brady in the Super Bowl ... twice.

BroncoFanBoy
07-02-2012, 01:06 PM
Sure, you could flip them. I put Roethlisberger over Brady because he has won a Super Bowl more recently than Brady. That's what I meant by " ... based on the recent past." Roethlisberger is 2-1 in Super Bowls since the last time Brady won one. During that same period, Brady is 0-2. I had to come up with some rationale to rank the nine, and that's it.

The Steelers have had a way better defense than the Patriots have had in recent years. The Pats had one of the worst pass defenses in the NFL last year, and still made the super bowl.

Plus Brady still puts up better stats than Roethlisberger.

samparnell
07-02-2012, 01:24 PM
The Steelers have had a way better defense than the Patriots have had in recent years. The Pats had one of the worst pass defenses in the NFL last year, and still made the super bowl.

Plus Brady still puts up better stats than Roethlisberger.

I understand the fascination with gaudy QB stats. Bill Parcells' job description of a QB is: Get your team into the EZ. That concept is part of my thinking.

If you like stats, there's always Dan Marino who had awesome stats, but no Super Bowl victories. John Elway was 0-3 in Super Bowls and considered a failure ... by Denver fans, before he closed out his career with a couple of championships behind a solid rushing attack and a solid D.

PowderAddict
07-02-2012, 01:37 PM
I don't understand no love for Eli Manning. The Giants have defeated the Pats twice in Super Bowls. In 2007 they went on the road and beat the Cowboys and the Packers in the NFCCG. Last year they crushed the Falcons, beat the Packers 37-20 in Green Bay and defeated the 9ers in OT in the NFCCG where Eli was clearly the guy (32-58-0, 316 yards and 2 TDs). What's up with ranking him behind Rodgers, his brother and Brady? He beat both Favre and Rodgers in their house and Brady in the Super Bowl ... twice.

Eli and Brady could easily be swapped in my rankings, in fact Eli being younger might seal the deal. Brady to me is just a bit more consistent, and accurate. Eli is super clutch though. I do think the Giants have had a better team when they won the superbowls (there's a profound statement eh!). I just think Brady is a better QB overall. But not by much.

Peyton to me is one of the best ever. He has done more with less than any modern QB IMO.

Right now though, I'm going with Rodgers as the best in the NFL. I'm not sure the last playoff game is a great measuring stick, as the team overall was dealing with a ton of crap. If I'm building a team from scratch, I'm going to start with Rodgers.

#24 Next Champ
07-02-2012, 01:45 PM
Eli Manning
Aaron Rodgers
Drew Brees
Ben Roethlisberger
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Jay Cutler
Philip Rivers
Joe Flacco

This is based on the recent past. This coming season will undoubtedly rearrange the order.

Sam, how in the hell do you have Roethlisberger so high?

To OP, I have loved watching these segments!!

I'll guess

Flacco
Cutler
Rivers
Roethlisberger
Eli Manning
Peyton Manning (he might have bros switched, but I wouldn't, no way in hell)
Drew Brees
Tom Brady
Aaron Rodgers

samparnell
07-02-2012, 01:54 PM
Sam, how in the hell do you have Roethlisberger so high?

To OP, I have loved watching these segments!!

I'll guess

Flacco
Cutler
Rivers
Roethlisberger
Eli Manning
Peyton Manning (he might have bros switched, but I wouldn't, no way in hell)
Drew Brees
Tom Brady
Aaron Rodgers

See post #8.

EvertonBroncos
07-02-2012, 02:17 PM
Matthew Stafford needs to be much higher. Off the back of a 5000 yard season, comeback player of the year and Rivers/C*tler/Flacco/Ryan are all ranked above him? Regardless, out of that 9 I'd rank them:

1. Aaron Rodgers
2. Peyton Manning
3. Tom Brady
4. Eli Manning
5. Drew Brees
6. Ben Rothlisberger
7. Philip Rivers
8. Jay Cutler
9. Joe Flacco

FL BRONCO
07-02-2012, 02:27 PM
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Drew Breeze
Aaron Rodgers
Ben Roth
Eli Manning

Drop off
Flacco
Rivers
Cutler


Tom Brady is still the best in my book. I think his sb loss this time had more to do with the defense then his play and he still gets in position every year in the play offs and he has played in and won more SB.

Peyton Manning is still up their in my book . He did more with less like Elway in his early years. People lower him because of injury but to me I see the opposite. Until I see it affect his play I give him his due. And he has certainly done a lot with less. The teams record without him last year says a lot about how important and good he is.

Breeze and Rodgers are neck and neck on their heals in my book. You could flip it either way. Breeze has a ring and broke the record last year so I gave him a slite nod but Rodgers also has a ring and I'd certainly be happy with either.

Ben has been to multiple SB's and he tends to perform in the clutch and all in all this is the position I would put him in if I had to choose. He always has his tea in the playoffs competing for it.

I don't see Eli as good as the others before him. His team struggles during the year and he is not in the playoffs every year and he has some struggles during the season. He is however mister clutch when he gets their and thats alot. I would rather have the guys before him because they are more consistent to me and their teams make it to the playoffs every year.

I rank Flacco next . Not because he has more talent but he does have his team in the playoffs every year and last year he was clutch and was a dropped pass away from going to the superbowl . For that reason I would rather have him than the next two although if you asked me before this season my opinion would have differed but between his good season and Rivers bad, He moved ahead in my book.

Rivers--he had a bunch of interceptions last year and couldn't even get to the playoffs in the weakest division. He was also behind keeping Norv who I happily think has ruined the team. He sounds like a real nice guy but not the one I want in charge in clutch situations or decisions

Cutler-- Very talented but imo not the leader I want on the field. He has had problems with interceptions especially in the red zone and when everything was on the line he walked off the field in the biggest game of his career and most of his teamates due to an injury that many players said they would have tried to play with everything on the line and those are fellow nflers. Not for purpose of argument but that is truly what I think and while he is very talented he is at the end of my list for a reason

BroncoFanBoy
07-02-2012, 03:44 PM
I understand the fascination with gaudy QB stats. Bill Parcells' job description of a QB is: Get your team into the EZ. That concept is part of my thinking.

If you like stats, there's always Dan Marino who had awesome stats, but no Super Bowl victories. John Elway was 0-3 in Super Bowls and considered a failure ... by Denver fans, before he closed out his career with a couple of championships behind a solid rushing attack and a solid D.

You gotta have talent around the QB to get them winning super bowls. Ben had that awesome defense and Rashard Mendenhall. (Along with bad ref calls in his first Super Bowl.) Brady has to win more games without an awesome defense and running game.

#24 Next Champ
07-04-2012, 02:06 PM
Jaws just said Flacco has the strongest arm in the NFL...Had a ton of praise for him ...ehhh I think he's overhyped him a bit

With that D, he imo could've done better ...good QB but inconsistent although I will say, last year the Ravens should've been in the SB

broncosking209
07-04-2012, 10:35 PM
Is it just me or does anyone eelse hate that damn monotone that Jaws uses when hes doing his play by play and during this show

CanDB
07-05-2012, 10:31 AM
Ron Jaworski has been ranking the starting QBs in the league. They have been counting down his rankings, revealing one new QB each day. Each segment includes a breakdown by Jaws on why the player is ranked where he is and what the player needs to do to improve and move up the rankings. I've watched most of the clips and his breakdowns are excellent, my favorite being the highly-nuanced and insightful one of Matt Ryan. Jaws, like Greg Cosell, is extremely detailed with his analysis of coaching tape and his rankings carry a lot of weight with many, including me.

By focusing on game-film analysis, Jaws makes it just about the QB. Win-loss records are reflective of the team and stats are influenced by offensive supporting cast, scheme and ran-pass bent etc, and both those parameters dilute the actual impact of the QB. It's also not a popularity contest, where votes don't have to be substantiated.

Here are his rankings so far -

10. Tony Romo, Dallas Cowboys
11. Matt Ryan, Atlanta Falcons
12. Michael Vick, Philadelphia Eagles
13. Matt Schaub, Houston Texans
14. Matthew Stafford, Detroit Lions
15. Cam Newton, Carolina Panthers
16. Alex Smith, San Francisco 49ers
17. Josh Freeman, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
18. Matt Hasselbeck, Tennessee Titans
19. Andy Dalton, Cincinnati Bengals
20. Sam Bradford, St. Louis Rams
21. Carson Palmer, Oakland Raiders
22. Matt Cassel, Kansas City Chiefs
23. Mark Sanchez, New York Jets
24. Ryan Fitzpatrick, Buffalo Bills
25. Kevin Kolb, Arizona Cardinals
26. Matt Moore, Miami Dolphins
27. Matt Flynn, Seattle Seahawks
28. Christian Ponder, Minnesota Vikings
29. Blaine Gabbert, Jacksonville Jaguars
30. Tim Tebow, New York Jets


I see the QBs left being ranked in the following order -

1. Tom Brady
2. Drew Brees
3. Eli Manning
4. Aaron Rodgers
5. Peyton Manning (the injury question drops him; if he's healthy he's number 1)
6. Ben Rothlisberger
7. Jay Cutler
8. Philip Rivers
9. Joe Flacco

What do you guys think about this series? How would you rank the remaining 9?

Ha ha......AC you got your boy Cutler back into the conversation!!

Ok, Jaws is a worthy assessor. Is this based on the past, or is this about expected performance in 2012? (sorry if I missed that part).

If it's what to expect, I'd have a careful watch for Stafford, Newton and Schaub. When these guys are on, they can light up the place.

I still believe Rodgers is the guy to hang your future on. He'd be my first pick in a pool.

Sure, Brees and Brady are close, and Eli has to be accounted for, based on his major successes. I am cautious about our guy Peyton, but I believe that this year he will be a top 10 QB, just based on his decision-making and leadership. If his arm is nearly as good, he will be a tp 5 QB.

Sure, Flacco, Rivers and Cutler....put them in the same type of boat. But as mentioned, watch for Stafford, Newton and Schaub.

Sorry AC....as long as Jay is Jay, he will be lacking top 10 credibility in my books (especially by his peers). Leadership and decision-making are still questionable. Maybe having a child will help him mature. And he has more weapons.....as I've said before, this must be his year. There are no excuses. We'll have this chat again by the end of the season. I may eat some crow as a result.

underrated29
07-05-2012, 11:06 AM
Flacco top 10 is aboslutely horrible!

Flacco is terrible. Terrible!

Id take all the other top 10 guys ahead of him plus, schaub, ryan, stafford, vick, even sam bradford ahead of flacco. I do not understand how anyone thinks he is good. He does have a great arm, but so what. He still sucks. He makes bad reads, bad descisions, hates being blitzed and will fold the game away if he does. Flacco is literally carried by an awesome Ray Rice, and an Amazing defense. Flacco is absolutely one of the most overrated QBs in the game today. People will see this sooner than later, esp when his defense gives out on him

#24 Next Champ
07-07-2012, 05:47 PM
Sam, how in the hell do you have Roethlisberger so high?

To OP, I have loved watching these segments!!

I'll guess

Flacco
Cutler
Rivers
Roethlisberger
Eli Manning
Peyton Manning (he might have bros switched, but I wouldn't, no way in hell)
Drew Brees
Tom Brady
Aaron Rodgers

haa, looks like I was spot on!

AC1
07-13-2012, 12:47 PM
I don't understand no love for Eli Manning. The Giants have defeated the Pats twice in Super Bowls. In 2007 they went on the road and beat the Cowboys and the Packers in the NFCCG. Last year they crushed the Falcons, beat the Packers 37-20 in Green Bay and defeated the 9ers in OT in the NFCCG where Eli was clearly the guy (32-58-0, 316 yards and 2 TDs). What's up with ranking him behind Rodgers, his brother and Brady? He beat both Favre and Rodgers in their house and Brady in the Super Bowl ... twice.

Eli Manning does continue to be under-rated, as does Rothlisberger. I don't think there's any business ranking them behind Rodgers on the basis of what they've done so far, because they have displayed clutchness that Rodgers has yet to match.

However, Jaworski is looking at things from an overall picture where IMO clutchness just becomes a part of the equation and Rodgers' excellence as a passer and runner vault him higher than Eli and Ben.

The mobility also might be an explanation (weak IMO) for ranking Rodgers higher than Brady and Peyton Manning, two guys who have been performing at an elite level for a lot longer than Rodgers.

AC1
07-13-2012, 12:48 PM
Matthew Stafford needs to be much higher. Off the back of a 5000 yard season, comeback player of the year and Rivers/C*tler/Flacco/Ryan are all ranked above him? Regardless, out of that 9 I'd rank them:

1. Aaron Rodgers
2. Peyton Manning
3. Tom Brady
4. Eli Manning
5. Drew Brees
6. Ben Rothlisberger
7. Philip Rivers
8. Jay Cutler
9. Joe Flacco

Stafford had one good season. He is probably the most promising young QB in the league (over Cam Newton too IMO), but he needs to show he can stay healthy.

AC1
07-13-2012, 01:43 PM
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Drew Breeze
Aaron Rodgers
Ben Roth
Eli Manning

Drop off
Flacco
Rivers
Cutler


Tom Brady is still the best in my book. I think his sb loss this time had more to do with the defense then his play and he still gets in position every year in the play offs and he has played in and won more SB.

Peyton Manning is still up their in my book . He did more with less like Elway in his early years. People lower him because of injury but to me I see the opposite. Until I see it affect his play I give him his due. And he has certainly done a lot with less. The teams record without him last year says a lot about how important and good he is.

Breeze and Rodgers are neck and neck on their heals in my book. You could flip it either way. Breeze has a ring and broke the record last year so I gave him a slite nod but Rodgers also has a ring and I'd certainly be happy with either.

Ben has been to multiple SB's and he tends to perform in the clutch and all in all this is the position I would put him in if I had to choose. He always has his tea in the playoffs competing for it.

I don't see Eli as good as the others before him. His team struggles during the year and he is not in the playoffs every year and he has some struggles during the season. He is however mister clutch when he gets their and thats alot. I would rather have the guys before him because they are more consistent to me and their teams make it to the playoffs every year.

I rank Flacco next . Not because he has more talent but he does have his team in the playoffs every year and last year he was clutch and was a dropped pass away from going to the superbowl . For that reason I would rather have him than the next two although if you asked me before this season my opinion would have differed but between his good season and Rivers bad, He moved ahead in my book.

Rivers--he had a bunch of interceptions last year and couldn't even get to the playoffs in the weakest division. He was also behind keeping Norv who I happily think has ruined the team. He sounds like a real nice guy but not the one I want in charge in clutch situations or decisions

Cutler-- Very talented but imo not the leader I want on the field. He has had problems with interceptions especially in the red zone and when everything was on the line he walked off the field in the biggest game of his career and most of his teamates due to an injury that many players said they would have tried to play with everything on the line and those are fellow nflers. Not for purpose of argument but that is truly what I think and while he is very talented he is at the end of my list for a reason

For the most part I agree with this grouping - Peyton (if healthy) and Brady are in a league of their own IMO. Then it's Rodgers and Brees along with Ben and Eli, the former two putting up gaudy stats and the latter two among the most clutch performers in the league (Peyton and Brady have both the stats and the clutch-ness).

Of the remaining three, I disagree about Cutler. I'd put him at the top of that third group. The questions about his leadership and toughness are quite outdated at this point. His teammates love him in Chicago, as they did in Denver and Vanderbilt. His toughness is beyond reproach. He needs to improve his ball-security (which as Jaworski pointed out, he's done of late with 0 red-zone turnovers in 2011 and only 3 in his last 6 games) and take fewer hits. Given the kind of team Chicago is (emphasizing defense and ball-control), I doubt he will put up gaudy stats. His road to the next level IMO is the Eli/Ben way, winning multiple titles and being a very good playoff QB.

AC1
07-13-2012, 02:36 PM
Ha ha......AC you got your boy Cutler back into the conversation!!

Ok, Jaws is a worthy assessor. Is this based on the past, or is this about expected performance in 2012? (sorry if I missed that part).

If it's what to expect, I'd have a careful watch for Stafford, Newton and Schaub. When these guys are on, they can light up the place.

I still believe Rodgers is the guy to hang your future on. He'd be my first pick in a pool.

Sure, Brees and Brady are close, and Eli has to be accounted for, based on his major successes. I am cautious about our guy Peyton, but I believe that this year he will be a top 10 QB, just based on his decision-making and leadership. If his arm is nearly as good, he will be a tp 5 QB.

Sure, Flacco, Rivers and Cutler....put them in the same type of boat. But as mentioned, watch for Stafford, Newton and Schaub.

Sorry AC....as long as Jay is Jay, he will be lacking top 10 credibility in my books (especially by his peers). Leadership and decision-making are still questionable. Maybe having a child will help him mature. And he has more weapons.....as I've said before, this must be his year. There are no excuses. We'll have this chat again by the end of the season. I may eat some crow as a result.

My understanding of the ranking is that it is based on current skill-set, as evidenced by recent performances. Clearly accomplishments and experience factor in, which would explain Stafford and Newton being ranked low. I expect both of them to make a move upwards next year. Schaub has been around for a while, so I wouldn't count on any quantum improvements from him.

As for Cutler, the point is that he is a top-10 QB NOW. No so-called excuses are being offered. Even if he didn't get make significant improvements relative to the rest of the pack (relative is key, because most of these guys are constantly improving), he'd still be a pretty good QB, even without Marshall and Bates. As for concerns about his leadership as I mentioned a couple of posts ago, they are quite outdated (they should never have existed, at least for fans that saw him command a young, injury-ravaged team in 2008).

IMO the difference between him and the elite 6 comes down to two things - ball-security and scheme consistency. The former is something he has improved as his trust in his defense has improved the last two years. He needs to keep getting better at it. The latter is one of the most under-rated things when it comes to evaluating QBs IMO. QBs that stay in the same system can take their games to different levels than those that are constantly changing schemes. Offensive schemes are often described as languages. How advanced can your command of a language be if you're always learning a new one. This is the reason I expect Rothlisberger to take a step back this season (unless Haley can craft his offense to be somewhat similar to that of Arians).

This is why I think the hiring of Bates was a good move (better than the trade for Marshall). If the offense, especially the passing game, is more Bates than Tice, Cutler will be able to use a lot of his prior knowledge of the system. If Bates can re-create the 2008 passing game without Shanahan around, Cutler could be downright scary. People forget that at the end of 2008, he was being regarded as the best young QB in the league (much better than Rodgers).

CanDB
07-13-2012, 03:54 PM
w
My understanding of the ranking is that it is based on current skill-set, as evidenced by recent performances. Clearly accomplishments and experience factor in, which would explain Stafford and Newton being ranked low. I expect both of them to make a move upwards next year. Schaub has been around for a while, so I wouldn't count on any quantum improvements from him.

As for Cutler, the point is that he is a top-10 QB NOW. No so-called excuses are being offered. Even if he didn't get make significant improvements relative to the rest of the pack (relative is key, because most of these guys are constantly improving), he'd still be a pretty good QB, even without Marshall and Bates. As for concerns about his leadership as I mentioned a couple of posts ago, they are quite outdated (they should never have existed, at least for fans that saw him command a young, injury-ravaged team in 2008).

IMO the difference between him and the elite 6 comes down to two things - ball-security and scheme consistency. The former is something he has improved as his trust in his defense has improved the last two years. He needs to keep getting better at it. The latter is one of the most under-rated things when it comes to evaluating QBs IMO. QBs that stay in the same system can take their games to different levels than those that are constantly changing schemes. Offensive schemes are often described as languages. How advanced can your command of a language be if you're always learning a new one. This is the reason I expect Rothlisberger to take a step back this season (unless Haley can craft his offense to be somewhat similar to that of Arians).

This is why I think the hiring of Bates was a good move (better than the trade for Marshall). If the offense, especially the passing game, is more Bates than Tice, Cutler will be able to use a lot of his prior knowledge of the system. If Bates can re-create the 2008 passing game without Shanahan around, Cutler could be downright scary. People forget that at the end of 2008, he was being regarded as the best young QB in the league (much better than Rodgers).

I was looking at the stats and tell me if you don't think Schaub is in the same neighbourhood (or better) than Jay. I just picked some of the usual stuff. Here goes (career wise):

QB %Comp TD% Int% Y/A Y/C Rate

Schaub 64.3 4.3 2.5 7.9 12.2 92.2
JCutler 61.1 4.6 3.4 7.3 11.9 84.5

Jay leads only in one...TD%. Not a convincing argument. And in my books, if Schaub was healthy last year, they had a REAL shot to win it all!

And I briefly saw the odds for winning the SB this year (flash by on the tv). I believe Houston has the 3rd or 4th best odds.......and I also have a feeling that's with Schaub at the helm.

samparnell
07-13-2012, 06:33 PM
Eli Manning does continue to be under-rated, as does Rothlisberger. I don't think there's any business ranking them behind Rodgers on the basis of what they've done so far, because they have displayed clutchness that Rodgers has yet to match.

However, Jaworski is looking at things from an overall picture where IMO clutchness just becomes a part of the equation and Rodgers' excellence as a passer and runner vault him higher than Eli and Ben.

The mobility also might be an explanation (weak IMO) for ranking Rodgers higher than Brady and Peyton Manning, two guys who have been performing at an elite level for a lot longer than Rodgers.

Stats are like trees that blind one's view of the forest. Individual player stats are especially misleading as far as the game of football is concerned. They are seductive to many who participate in "fantasy football" which has no relationship to the game which is played on the field with lines.

Quantification is very prevalent; qualification is a subjective art. At the end of the day, the only question is: Did you get better as a team? At the end of the game, the only stat that counts is the one on the scoreboard. At the end of the season the only thing that matters is who played in the last game and who won it.

Team stats tell you more about what is and isn't working and what needs to be fixed. Individual stats just help to describe what happened on the field. If you really want to know what happened, you have to see it.

All the awesome QB stats of 2011 mean little as far as the 2011 season is concerned. They are symptomatic of how the NFL rules have produced a stagnant, overdeveloped and stylized form of the game.

strat1080
07-14-2012, 12:55 PM
Eli and Brady could easily be swapped in my rankings, in fact Eli being younger might seal the deal. Brady to me is just a bit more consistent, and accurate. Eli is super clutch though. I do think the Giants have had a better team when they won the superbowls (there's a profound statement eh!). I just think Brady is a better QB overall. But not by much.

Peyton to me is one of the best ever. He has done more with less than any modern QB IMO.

Right now though, I'm going with Rodgers as the best in the NFL. I'm not sure the last playoff game is a great measuring stick, as the team overall was dealing with a ton of crap. If I'm building a team from scratch, I'm going to start with Rodgers.

Rodgers was previously 2-0 against Eli. Ranking QBs by individual games against themselves is silly. I agree with you. Its unfair to hold the one playoff loss against Rodgers and ignore that the guy had won 19 of his previous games. Very few QBs have ever had a year like Rodgers had in 2011. In the calendar year of 2011 Rodgers had a 19-1 record.This is dating from Week 17 of the 2010 season all the way through the last game Rodgers played in 2011. A 19-1 record and only one game with multiple turnovers. He posted a 100+ QB Rating in 13 consecutive games.

I know Rodgers gets a lot of flack for the playoff loss but he played his butt off on that game. The receivers and defense just didn't show up. The guy threw for 260 yards and ran for 60 yards and picked up 7 first downs on the ground. The team had 25 first downs. Rodgers picked up 7 of those himself on runs. He was the only guy who showed up to play that day. At that point in the season, the Packers defense was playing like absolute garbage. Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, or Drew Brees would have easily gone for over 400 yards and 4+ TDs against that same defense. Eli had good stats in that game but we have to keep in mind he was playing against arguably the worst pass defense in NFL history.

strat1080
07-14-2012, 01:00 PM
Eli Manning does continue to be under-rated, as does Rothlisberger. I don't think there's any business ranking them behind Rodgers on the basis of what they've done so far, because they have displayed clutchness that Rodgers has yet to match.

However, Jaworski is looking at things from an overall picture where IMO clutchness just becomes a part of the equation and Rodgers' excellence as a passer and runner vault him higher than Eli and Ben.

The mobility also might be an explanation (weak IMO) for ranking Rodgers higher than Brady and Peyton Manning, two guys who have been performing at an elite level for a lot longer than Rodgers.

At the same time, Eli led the NFL in INTs last year. You have to keep things in perspective. Eli has won two Super Bowls but he's way too inconsistent to be ranked up there with Brady, Brees, and Rodgers. Those guys carry their teams and when they have an off-day their team simply loses.

The knock I have on Eli is that he has faced the Top 2 scoring offenses in NFL history in the playoffs and his defense held them to 14 and 20 points respectively. Is that great QB play or great defensive play at the right time? The Patriots scored 36 PPG and the Giants held them to 14 points in the Super Bowl. The Packers averaged 35 PPG last year and 40 PPG at home. The Giants held them to half that in that playoff game. Eli has played well in his two Super Bowl runs but it wasn't all Eli. I haven't really seen Eli put up that epic playoff performance that we've seen from Brady, Rodgers, and Brees. I also haven't really seen a truly prolific passing season from Eli.

strat1080
07-14-2012, 01:08 PM
For the most part I agree with this grouping - Peyton (if healthy) and Brady are in a league of their own IMO. Then it's Rodgers and Brees along with Ben and Eli, the former two putting up gaudy stats and the latter two among the most clutch performers in the league (Peyton and Brady have both the stats and the clutch-ness).

Of the remaining three, I disagree about Cutler. I'd put him at the top of that third group. The questions about his leadership and toughness are quite outdated at this point. His teammates love him in Chicago, as they did in Denver and Vanderbilt. His toughness is beyond reproach. He needs to improve his ball-security (which as Jaworski pointed out, he's done of late with 0 red-zone turnovers in 2011 and only 3 in his last 6 games) and take fewer hits. Given the kind of team Chicago is (emphasizing defense and ball-control), I doubt he will put up gaudy stats. His road to the next level IMO is the Eli/Ben way, winning multiple titles and being a very good playoff QB.

Two or three years ago this would have been the case. Rodgers is truly the QB that is in a league of his own though. There isn't a single that Brees, Brady, or Manning can do that he can't. There are plenty of things he can do that they can't though. The guy won the MVP voting by a landslide and was named the NFL's #1 player by the players and was ranked #1 by Jaws. Three different entities are basically saying Rodgers is the top guy in the NFL. He is the most difficult QB to game plan for. Jaws evidence this in his breakdown of Rodgers' game. Like he said in the video. What really makes Rodgers special is that, "He can beat the defense even when the defense wins". In situations where Brady or Manning would simply throw it away, Rodgers can either run for a first down or buy time and throw it down the field. Rodgers is in a league of his own throwing on the run. At the same time he is every bit as good a pocket passer as Brady or Manning.

Eli and Ben simply aren't in the same class as Rodgers and Brees. That's just wrong.

AC1
07-18-2012, 08:39 PM
w

I was looking at the stats and tell me if you don't think Schaub is in the same neighbourhood (or better) than Jay. I just picked some of the usual stuff. Here goes (career wise):

QB %Comp TD% Int% Y/A Y/C Rate

Schaub 64.3 4.3 2.5 7.9 12.2 92.2
JCutler 61.1 4.6 3.4 7.3 11.9 84.5

Jay leads only in one...TD%. Not a convincing argument. And in my books, if Schaub was healthy last year, they had a REAL shot to win it all!

And I briefly saw the odds for winning the SB this year (flash by on the tv). I believe Houston has the 3rd or 4th best odds.......and I also have a feeling that's with Schaub at the helm.

Schaub is an under-rated QB for sure. I would put him in the second tier from 7-11 along with Cutler, Rivers, Romo and Vick (I would swap him out with Flacco from Jaws' rankings). The only knock against him though is he doesn't carry a team.

My point about Schaub was that you can't expect the quantum improvements from him that one would expect from Stafford and Newton. These two have had one full season each in the NFL. Schaub has been around for a while and IMO (highly subjective, I grant you) he's reached his ceiling. He's been in the same scheme now for 5 seasons and the improvements he makes now are likely to be only incremental.

AC1
07-18-2012, 08:46 PM
At the same time, Eli led the NFL in INTs last year. You have to keep things in perspective. Eli has won two Super Bowls but he's way too inconsistent to be ranked up there with Brady, Brees, and Rodgers. Those guys carry their teams and when they have an off-day their team simply loses.

The knock I have on Eli is that he has faced the Top 2 scoring offenses in NFL history in the playoffs and his defense held them to 14 and 20 points respectively. Is that great QB play or great defensive play at the right time? The Patriots scored 36 PPG and the Giants held them to 14 points in the Super Bowl. The Packers averaged 35 PPG last year and 40 PPG at home. The Giants held them to half that in that playoff game. Eli has played well in his two Super Bowl runs but it wasn't all Eli. I haven't really seen Eli put up that epic playoff performance that we've seen from Brady, Rodgers, and Brees. I also haven't really seen a truly prolific passing season from Eli.

I wasn't talking about prolific passing seasons. I was talking about clutch play. Eli is extremely good when the game is on the line. He is really good in big games.

Rodgers is something like 4-16 in games where the margin was one score or less.

You mentioned defense - the only year Rodgers has won a playoff game is when he had the #1 ranked defense in the league.

AC1
07-18-2012, 09:04 PM
Two or three years ago this would have been the case. Rodgers is truly the QB that is in a league of his own though. There isn't a single that Brees, Brady, or Manning can do that he can't. There are plenty of things he can do that they can't though. The guy won the MVP voting by a landslide and was named the NFL's #1 player by the players and was ranked #1 by Jaws. Three different entities are basically saying Rodgers is the top guy in the NFL. He is the most difficult QB to game plan for. Jaws evidence this in his breakdown of Rodgers' game. Like he said in the video. What really makes Rodgers special is that, "He can beat the defense even when the defense wins". In situations where Brady or Manning would simply throw it away, Rodgers can either run for a first down or buy time and throw it down the field. Rodgers is in a league of his own throwing on the run. At the same time he is every bit as good a pocket passer as Brady or Manning.

Eli and Ben simply aren't in the same class as Rodgers and Brees. That's just wrong.

The part in bold is absolute nonsense. For starters, Manning's command of an offense and understanding of defenses is in a league of his own. Brady is close, but no one commands an offense or dissects a defense like Manning. Rodgers is nowhere near their league in terms of his understanding of defenses. He knows his offense well because like these two, he has been in the same system forever. Brees has actually been in his system for a shorter period than Rodgers has been in his.

Also, Rodgers has had one league-best season. Manning and Brady have had how many? He also plays on a team that is STACKED. Manning misses a season and his team can barely win a game. Rodgers misses a game and his backup sets a franchise record. Let's see Rodgers have a few more seasons of playing well before we put him in the same bracket as surefire hall-of-famers.

ERoyal248
07-20-2012, 08:30 PM
The part in bold is absolute nonsense. For starters, Manning's command of an offense and understanding of defenses is in a league of his own. Brady is close, but no one commands an offense or dissects a defense like Manning. Rodgers is nowhere near their league in terms of his understanding of defenses. He knows his offense well because like these two, he has been in the same system forever. Brees has actually been in his system for a shorter period than Rodgers has been in his.

Also, Rodgers has had one league-best season. Manning and Brady have had how many? He also plays on a team that is STACKED. Manning misses a season and his team can barely win a game. Rodgers misses a game and his backup sets a franchise record. Let's see Rodgers have a few more seasons of playing well before we put him in the same bracket as surefire hall-of-famers.

Athletically speaking, he's right.

Stacked, no, good, probably.

Jennings/Finley would be great on any other team.

Nelson is more of a product of Rodgers imo.

Jones, Driver, Cobb are all good but hardly top tier WR's like you make it seem.

bears6385
07-22-2012, 10:42 AM
Ron Jaworski has been ranking the starting QBs in the league. They have been counting down his rankings, revealing one new QB each day. Each segment includes a breakdown by Jaws on why the player is ranked where he is and what the player needs to do to improve and move up the rankings. I've watched most of the clips and his breakdowns are excellent, my favorite being the highly-nuanced and insightful one of Matt Ryan. Jaws, like Greg Cosell, is extremely detailed with his analysis of coaching tape and his rankings carry a lot of weight with many, including me.

By focusing on game-film analysis, Jaws makes it just about the QB. Win-loss records are reflective of the team and stats are influenced by offensive supporting cast, scheme and ran-pass bent etc, and both those parameters dilute the actual impact of the QB. It's also not a popularity contest, where votes don't have to be substantiated.

Here are his rankings so far -

10. Tony Romo, Dallas Cowboys
11. Matt Ryan, Atlanta Falcons
12. Michael Vick, Philadelphia Eagles
13. Matt Schaub, Houston Texans
14. Matthew Stafford, Detroit Lions
15. Cam Newton, Carolina Panthers
16. Alex Smith, San Francisco 49ers
17. Josh Freeman, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
18. Matt Hasselbeck, Tennessee Titans
19. Andy Dalton, Cincinnati Bengals
20. Sam Bradford, St. Louis Rams
21. Carson Palmer, Oakland Raiders
22. Matt Cassel, Kansas City Chiefs
23. Mark Sanchez, New York Jets
24. Ryan Fitzpatrick, Buffalo Bills
25. Kevin Kolb, Arizona Cardinals
26. Matt Moore, Miami Dolphins
27. Matt Flynn, Seattle Seahawks
28. Christian Ponder, Minnesota Vikings
29. Blaine Gabbert, Jacksonville Jaguars
30. Tim Tebow, New York Jets


I see the QBs left being ranked in the following order -

1. Tom Brady
2. Drew Brees
3. Eli Manning
4. Aaron Rodgers
5. Peyton Manning (the injury question drops him; if he's healthy he's number 1)
6. Ben Rothlisberger
7. Jay Cutler
8. Philip Rivers
9. Joe Flacco

What do you guys think about this series? How would you rank the remaining 9?I would not change Jaws rating, I think he is spot on.

ERoyal248
07-22-2012, 10:51 AM
I would not change Jaws rating, I think he is spot on.

What was the top 5?

Rodgers
Brady
Brees
Peyton (if healthy)
Eli

If so, i'd probably agree, you could flip Ben or Eli though imo.

bears6385
07-22-2012, 11:02 AM
What was the top 5?

Rodgers
Brady
Brees
Peyton (if healthy)
Eli

If so, i'd probably agree, you could flip Ben or Eli though imo.You are exacty right on the top 5. The next 5 were Big Ben, Rivers, Cutler, Flacco, and Romo.

ERoyal248
07-22-2012, 11:55 AM
You are exacty right on the top 5. The next 5 were Big Ben, Rivers, Cutler, Flacco, and Romo.

I wouldn't have Flacco in there, but Stafford does need to prove to be more consistent/healthy to be in the Top 10.

Would of had Schaub in there as well, overall Jaws rankings are pretty good.

AC1
07-23-2012, 08:35 AM
Athletically speaking, he's right.

Stacked, no, good, probably.

Jennings/Finley would be great on any other team.

Nelson is more of a product of Rodgers imo.

Jones, Driver, Cobb are all good but hardly top tier WR's like you make it seem.

Athletically speaking, there isn't a single thing any of these guys can do that Cam Newton cannot. The point is the command of an offense and understanding of defenses that Brady and Manning bring to the table is in a completely different league from Rodgers.

As for the talent-level on the Packers, it is as good a roster as any in the league. As you mentioned, Jennings and Finley are elite. Nelson is one of the better receivers in the league and was a high-second round draft pick. If he were a product of Rodgers, we would have seen him produce immediately (like Eddie Royal did that year). Driver is extremely reliable and is easily the best #4 WR in the game. When you have 5 pass-catchers of that caliber, whom do you cover? Just look at what Matt Flynn did, not just in the last game of the season but even the previous year when he almost beat the Patriots. Would you say Flynn is elite? (Note I'm not saying Flynn is as good as Rodgers, but what he did speaks very strongly to the strength of the Packers roster and system).

This doesn't even take into account the defense, which is loaded with stars like Woodson, Matthews, Raji and extremely good players like Tramon Williams and Pickett. Even though they ranked very badly in the 2011 season, they were still the best in the league in getting turnovers. And in 2010, they were the best defense in the league.

AC1
07-23-2012, 08:40 AM
I would not change Jaws rating, I think he is spot on.

My own rankings would differ somewhat, but based on the methodology he used, I can agree with Jaws' rankings.


I wouldn't have Flacco in there, but Stafford does need to prove to be more consistent/healthy to be in the Top 10.

Would of had Schaub in there as well, overall Jaws rankings are pretty good.

I would have swapped Schaub and Flacco, but I agree with you that his rankings were pretty good. I can see Stafford moving up next year. He has all the tools and the perfect situation (great passing support system, especially now with Reiff added, and poor running game/defense).

-Rod-
07-23-2012, 10:23 AM
Matt Stafford was severely underrated. I think he already is miles ahead of Jay Cutler, who was overrated by Jaworski.

Spice 1
07-23-2012, 11:27 AM
I'd say:

1. Rodgers - He does it all. He does it all well.
2. E. Manning - I've always been an Eli fan. He consistently makes throws that I don't think any other QB in the league can make. Gets better when his team needs him the most.
3. P. Manning (healthy) - No need. Though he's still getting old.
4. Brees - As ridiculous as Brees' control is, I still see him throw crazy picks from time to time. That, and he has to move around a lot to see what the hell is going on downfield.
5. Brady - Still best in the league at taking care of the football while being effective. Eli is a close second. Brady honestly hasn't had a lot to work with recently either.
6. Roethlisberger - His strength continues to be in extending plays. He's a tough dude that can put a team on his back like no other.
7. Cutler - As long as he continues to play like last season.
8. Rivers - Last year was probably an aberration.
9. Stafford - You have to admit that when he's healthy, he's got all of the tools.
10. Newton - Doesn't take care of the football, and seems to throw go routes whenever he gets the opportunity, but he could damn there play 3 on 11 and have success.

AC1
07-23-2012, 11:49 AM
Matt Stafford was severely underrated. I think he already is miles ahead of Jay Cutler, who was overrated by Jaworski.

That's the kind of statement you can arbitrarily make about any two names - Cam Newton is severely under-rated. I think he is already miles ahead of Aaron Rodgers, who was over-rated by Jaworski.

-Rod-
07-23-2012, 12:36 PM
That's the kind of statement you can arbitrarily make about any two names - Cam Newton is severely under-rated. I think he is already miles ahead of Aaron Rodgers, who was over-rated by Jaworski.

Stafford was a 5000-yard passer last season. 41 TDs. QB rate: 97.2. Completion %: 63.5. And he only had 13 games of experience in the NFL before the 2011 season. 24 years old. What is he doing at #14? Is he middle of the pack? Average? It does not make any sense. Stafford turned the Lions around, from bottom feeder to playoff contender. And his OL is nothing special. Calvin Johnson is his elite WR. Brandon Marshall was considered an elite WR when he played for the Broncos. Jay Cutler never came close to those numbers. Both guys have elite arm strength, but Stafford makes better decisions and produces more on the field. And I'm among those who think that Jay Cutler should have stayed in Denver, he was our franchise QB. But Stafford is playing at a higher level. Jawroski put Cutler in his top 10, and Cutler never threw or more than 27 TDs in a regular season. His QB rate never crossed the 90.0 mark. Cutler is not better than Stafford.

Spice 1
07-23-2012, 01:14 PM
Stafford was a 5000-yard passer last season. 41 TDs. QB rate: 97.2. Completion %: 63.5. And he only had 13 games of experience in the NFL before the 2011 season. 24 years old. What is he doing at #14? Is he middle of the pack? Average? It does not make any sense. Stafford turned the Lions around, from bottom feeder to playoff contender. And his OL is nothing special. Calvin Johnson is his elite WR. Brandon Marshall was considered an elite WR when he played for the Broncos. Jay Cutler never came close to those numbers. Both guys have elite arm strength, but Stafford makes better decisions and produces more on the field. And I'm among those who think that Jay Cutler should have stayed in Denver, he was our franchise QB. But Stafford is playing at a higher level. Jawroski put Cutler in his top 10, and Cutler never threw or more than 27 TDs in a regular season. His QB rate never crossed the 90.0 mark. Cutler is not better than Stafford.

I think you're right in that Stafford is ahead of where Cutler was at the same point in time, and Stafford might end up having the better career. The numbers don't tell the whole story though. Cutler played his ass off last year. Right now, give me Cutler in Detroit's offense. I think it's real close though.