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Emily Diana
04-16-2015, 04:44 PM
- Jameis Winston sued by accuser in sexual assault incident -

"Almost exactly two weeks before the NFL draft is to begin, news broke that the presumptive top pick James Winston is being sued by his accuser in an alleged sexual assault incident from 2012.

The story was first reported by Matt Baker of the Tampa Bay Times. Baker reported the lawsuit was filed by Erica Kinsman on Thursday in the Circuit Court of the Ninth Judicial District. In the lawsuit, according to the Tampa Bay Times, Kinsman accuses Winston, the 2013 Heisman Trophy winner at Florida State, of sexual battery, assault, false imprisonment and "intentional infliction of emotional distress arising out of forcible rape." The incident in question happened in December of 2012." ...

Here is the statement Kinsman's attorney, John Clune, gave to Baker of the Tampa Bay Times :clap: :

"Today, a very brave young woman filed her lawsuit against Jameis Winston for the sexual battery that she reported to police in December 2012. Over the past two years, this survivor of sexual violence has had to endure a delinquent police investigation, a hostile FSU athletic department, and Mr. Winston's bullying lawyer. But the more these forces sought to silence her, the more determined she has become to step forward and hold Jameis Winston accountable for his actions. With the support of her family, she is prepared for this fight and for the counterclaims and the smear campaigns that will surely follow.

"We know that quite often the public is quick to support the cause against sexual violence but at times can be slow to support the individual women who come forward. We hope that this case becomes a model for understanding what real sexual assault cases look like as well as the barriers that survivors face in coming forward. Perhaps more than anything, Erica hopes to show other survivors the strength and empowerment that can come from refusing to stay silent no matter what forces are against you.

"Jameis Winston in contrast has proven time and time again to be an entitled athlete who believes he can take what he wants. He took something here that he was not entitled to and he hurt someone. There are consequences for that behavior and since others have refused to hold him accountable, our client will."

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/jameis-winston-sued-by-accuser-in-sexual-assault-incident-212530057.html

broncolee
04-16-2015, 04:51 PM
I wonder how Tampa and the NFL will feel about Winston if she wins the lawsuit.

Emily Diana
04-16-2015, 05:11 PM
- An Unblinking Look at Sexual Assaults on Campus -

"“The Hunting Ground,” set for release in theaters and broadcast on CNN, was billed by the Sundance Film Festival as a “piercing, monumental exposé of rape culture on campuses.” Judging by viewer reaction at the film’s premiere and the comments of two United States senators afterward, festival programmers might have undersold it.

Though the subject has been explored in depth by some publications, the response testified to the power of film. At the premiere here on Friday, audience members repeatedly gasped as student after student spoke on camera about being sexually assaulted — and being subsequently ignored or run through endless hoops by college administrators concerned about keeping rape statistics low." ...

Winston, the Florida State University quarterback, is the focus of one of the film’s more incendiary segments. The Heisman Trophy winner in 2013, he was accused in 2012 of sexual assault by a female student. He has asserted his innocence, did not face criminal charges and was recently cleared of violating Florida State’s student code of conduct by the university. He is widely expected to be among the first several players chosen in this spring’s N.F.L. draft. But “The Hunting Ground,” directed by Kirby Dick, makes a mockery of Florida State’s investigation, and Mr. Winston’s accuser, Erica Kinsman, speaks publicly about the case for the first time in the film, at length." ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/26/movies/the-hunting-ground-a-film-about-rape-culture-at-colleges.html?_r=0
__________________________________

"From the Academy Award-nominated filmmaking team behind The Invisible War, comes a startling exposé of sexual assault on U.S. campuses, institutional cover-ups and the brutal social toll on victims and their families."

http://www.thehuntinggroundfilm.com/

EddieMac
04-16-2015, 05:20 PM
Just because of the optics of it, the timing of the suit is terrible.

They say it won't affect his draft status, I guess we will see soon enough.

broncoslover115
04-16-2015, 07:48 PM
Just because of the optics of it, the timing of the suit is terrible.

They say it won't affect his draft status, I guess we will see soon enough.

I know what you are trying to say but she has been trying to have her voice heard for 3 years now. I think the timing is perfect for her. The timing is always right for people to get justice in whatever they can.

Really, I could care less about how it hurts his draft status or not.

EddieMac
04-16-2015, 07:58 PM
Oh I should have clarified that. I don't care either its just how the timing of the lawsuit will be perceived.

broncoslover115
04-16-2015, 08:09 PM
Oh I should have clarified that. I don't care either its just how the timing of the lawsuit will be perceived.

Yeah I hear you. And it's too bad because it will be all about him once again.

fallforward3y+
04-16-2015, 10:23 PM
I wonder how Tampa and the NFL will feel about Winston if she wins the lawsuit.

Unless information that they didn't know already is presented, I doubt it.

The Bucs have known about this allegation for awhile I would imagine, and have seemingly decided they are willing to draft him despite it. Unless they see something to change their mind, such as something that provides more evidence of his guilt than there already is, I doubt they would change their minds.

I haven't followed the case, so I don't really know what evidence is there. If they find(or have already found) sufficient evidence that he is guilty, hopefully it will result in jail time for him. If such evidence is not found though, then I'd say proceed forward.

Garfield
04-16-2015, 10:32 PM
Unless information that they didn't know already is presented, I doubt it.

The Bucs have known about this allegation for awhile I would imagine, and have seemingly decided they are willing to draft him despite it. Unless they see something to change their mind, such as something that provides more evidence of his guilt than there already is, I doubt they would change their minds.

I haven't followed the case, so I don't really know what evidence is there. If they find(or have already found) sufficient evidence that he is guilty, hopefully it will result in jail time for him. If such evidence is not found though, then I'd say proceed forward.

Jail time can not be part of a civil lawsuit. So that is moot. It is money that is the motivating Factor at this point.

fallforward3y+
04-16-2015, 10:37 PM
Jail time can not be part of a civil lawsuit. So that is moot. It is money that is the motivating Factor at this point.

I know that jail time won't result from the law suit. I'm talking about something being uncovered in the law suit that provides evidence of his guilt being used in a separate criminal trial, if something that provides sufficient evidence of his guilt is uncovered.

Garfield
04-17-2015, 06:23 AM
I know that jail time won't result from the law suit. I'm talking about something being uncovered in the law suit that provides evidence of his guilt being used in a separate criminal trial, if something that provides sufficient evidence of his guilt is uncovered.
Unlikely that even IF it was discovered thT local law would go forward. There is. Mind set about star power they will not move on. There would have to be public pressure and thT is not going to happen, in today's climate.

fallforward3y+
04-17-2015, 01:04 PM
Unlikely that even IF it was discovered thT local law would go forward. There is. Mind set about star power they will not move on. There would have to be public pressure and thT is not going to happen, in today's climate.

Do you mean that they think his celebrity status will make it far too difficult to ever convict him, or more so that they feel it's out of their league, and that they wouldn't be able to get a conviction if they tried? If they think that, I think the Aaron Hernandez case should perhaps give them confidence that they'd be able to convict a celebrity.

ruksak
04-17-2015, 01:55 PM
Well....it's a good thing she wasn't "assaulted" by a poor man, then there would be no justice at all.

CanDB
04-17-2015, 02:15 PM
I can't speak with any knowledge of the accusation, but I think some of this has been assessed by teams already, and is likely a part of why Mariota heads Mayock's list of QBs. This is obviously a matter of concern, and may in fact drop Winston more than initially anticipated, regardless of the judgement that will be provided for this case. I assume justice will be served at some point, whatever that may be.

I am only talking about this from a draft perspective because, as mentioned, I don't have any facts about this situation. He is innocent at this point.

broncoslover115
04-17-2015, 02:18 PM
Do you mean that they think his celebrity status will make it far too difficult to ever convict him, or more so that they feel it's out of their league, and that they wouldn't be able to get a conviction if they tried? If they think that, I think the Aaron Hernandez case should perhaps give them confidence that they'd be able to convict a celebrity.

I'd like to speak just from the college angle here. First of all you have to understand how sexual assaults are, or should I say are not, investigated on college campuses.

Let's start with how sexual assault allegations are typically handled on campuses. In many cases, they simply are not handled like crimes. Many colleges try to keep these allegations on campus and try to handle them like they are merely parking tickets. You must understand that many colleges often don't "refer" these cases to outside law enforcement agencies and try to handle them as if they are normal violations of the student code of conduct. If you ever took a random sample of college campus websites and read their "what to do if you are sexually assaulted," and "what we will do if you are sexually assaulted," the majority of them will tell you to:

1) Tell your RA
2) Tell the Title IX investigator
3) File a complaint in house
4) blah, blah, blah.

Usually, the last thing they have you do is to: CONTACT THE LOCAL POLICE. Sometimes they don't even have that option or provide you with a phone number. Why, because they don't want you contacting the local police. Why? Because they want the case handled in house. Why? Because they want to handle it like a violation of the student code of conduct.

What does that mean? That means, if one is found guilty of sexual misconduct, you will simply be suspended for a term or shorter. Or, you might be asked to switch classes if both the alleged victim and perpetrator are in the same classes. Or, that you will have a violation be written up and placed in your file. Cases of sexual assault will most often be handled by campus police who HAVE NO AUTHORITY TO CHARGE THE SEXUAL ASSAULT AS A CRIME.


Sexual assault is a crime. When sexual assault occurs on college campuses, they ARE NOT HANDLED LIKE CRIMES. Please understand that. This is why there are currently 188 colleges right now who are in jeopardy of losing their Title IX Education Funding from the Department of Education because they are not handling sexual assault cases like crimes.

How do I know this. This is my field. I have spent years providing training and technical assistance to universities and colleges by assisting them in developing policies and procedures for responding to sexual assault cases. I have assisted them in writing up policies in such a way so they will not lose their Title IX funding.

Now because there have been so many mishandling of these cases, I would venture to say that policies have gotten better but there is still a long way to go. Right now in Boston alone Harvard, Tufts, Boston College, MIT, Brandeis, Amherst and Smith College are in violation. Those are heavy weights. And they are in trouble.

In this case the alleged victim did contact the police but they felt they didn't have enough to pursue it for a variety of reasons.

As for the star power athletes. It's not a surprise that in schools and cases with high profile athletes get away with this all the time. You certainly aren't surprised by this, are you? Kobe, Ben Roethlisburger are two who come to mind right off the bat. Winston will never be held accountable in a criminal court so the alleged victim felt her last remedy was a civil action. We'll see what happens there.

JJBroncoFan
04-17-2015, 03:16 PM
I know what you are trying to say but she has been trying to have her voice heard for 3 years now. I think the timing is perfect for her. The timing is always right for people to get justice in whatever they can.

Really, I could care less about how it hurts his draft status or not.

So you're saying that even if he is innocent you don't care if a very important time in his life is tarnished. This would not be the first case of a person lying for money. With that said if he did it I hope he gets hammered.

JJBroncoFan
04-17-2015, 03:50 PM
Nope, I don't care about him at all really. Can't stand the guy actually. If he did it, then he is also not the first person who actually sexually assaulted someone and got away with it. It works both ways. So please tell me how his life has been tarnished. People in the NFL knew this was coming. They already expected it. He'll still be the number 1 or number 2 draft pick. Nothing will change that. He'll still be an NFL QB. What will change? Nothing.

For one his reputation would be damaged, these kinds of allegations stick around even when acquitted. He would to have to go through a very stressful situation for no reason at all except one woman's greed or whatever reasoning she would have to lie.

By reading some of your other posts it sounds like you work in this field which is pretty scary considering your reply to me. It seems you have some hate towards men and don't care to learn the facts before destroying their lives. Many men don't have the resources that Jamis Winston has and as a result they get railroaded even when innocent. IMO they need to start locking up some of these "victims" that get caught lying. It's disgusting behavior and creates doubt that results in true victims never getting any justice.

broncoslover115
04-17-2015, 03:54 PM
Nope, I don't care about him at all really. Can't stand the guy actually. If he did it, then he is also not the first person who actually sexually assaulted someone and got away with it. It works both ways.

So please tell me how his life has been tarnished. People in the NFL knew this was coming. They already expected it. He'll still be the number 1 or number 2 draft pick. Nothing will change that. He'll still be an NFL QB. What will change? Nothing.

broncoslover115
04-17-2015, 04:03 PM
For one his reputation would be damaged, these kinds of allegations stick around even when acquitted. He would to have to go through a very stressful situation for no reason at all except one woman's greed or whatever reasoning she would have to lie.

By reading some of your other posts it sounds like you work in this field which is pretty scary considering your reply to me. It seems you have some hate towards men and don't care to learn the facts before destroying their lives. Many men don't have the resources that Jamis Winston has and as a result they get railroaded even when innocent. IMO they need to start locking up some of these "victims" that get caught lying. It's disgusting behavior and creates doubt that results in true victims never getting any justice.

You have no idea who I am and what I think about men. I don't harbor any hatred towards men whatsoever. Most men are wonderful people. So, stop it and get off that crap. Don't insult the work I do and make it trivial by pinning it a hatred toward men because it is just plain wrong. If you know the work I do, you would know that a good many men are also survivors of sexual abuse and I work with them as well.

I am not destroying any lives because I could care less about Jameis Winston. I don't care about him because he is a self-absorbed, entitled, immature person. How am I destroying lives? Because I don't like the kid?

I understand full well that there are people who lie about sexual assault for money. I get it. And I understand that there are men who actually commit sexual assault and get away with it. It works both ways. My not caring about Winston is not indicative of my attitude toward men in general. It has to do with him and his past behavior in a whole lot of ways.

There are MANY people who are concerned about his past behavior, not just me.

JJBroncoFan
04-17-2015, 04:11 PM
You have no idea who I am and what I think about men. I don't harbor any hatred towards men whatsoever. Most men are wonderful people. So, stop it and get off that crap. Don't insult the work I do and make it trivial by pinning it a hatred toward men because it is just plain wrong. If you know the work I do, you would know that a good many men are also survivors of sexual abuse and I work with them as well.

I am not destroying any lives because I could care less about Jameis Winston. I don't care about him because he is a self-absorbed, entitled, immature person. How am I destroying lives? Because I don't like the kid?

I understand full well that there are people who lie about sexual assault for money. I get it. And I understand that there are men who actually commit sexual assault and get away with it. It works both ways. My not caring about Winston is not indicative of my attitude toward men in general. It has to do with him and his past behavior in a whole lot of ways.

There are MANY people who are concerned about his past behavior, not just me.

My exact question to you was if you would care if he went through all of this needlessly, as in he was proven innocent. Your reply was no, you don't care about him at all and that you can't stand him. That is a pretty clear answer. Those that are falsely accused are victimized as well. Working in that field, one of which I have worked in before, with that kind of attitude is disturbing.

fallforward3y+
04-17-2015, 04:32 PM
Nope, I don't care about him at all really. Can't stand the guy actually. If he did it, then he is also not the first person who actually sexually assaulted someone and got away with it. It works both ways.

So please tell me how his life has been tarnished. People in the NFL knew this was coming. They already expected it. He'll still be the number 1 or number 2 draft pick. Nothing will change that. He'll still be an NFL QB. What will change? Nothing.

It is likely true that this allegation won't effect his draft status, because people in the NFL are already aware of the allegation, and likely have been for awhile. However, if people decide not to draft him because he 'might' be a rapist, that is effecting his life. Every NFL player might be a rapist, every poster on here might be as well. It is very hard to prove you didn't do something, so that's why the mentality of 'if he is accused of it, unless he proves he didn't do it, punish him' mind set can be dangerous.

I don't think you think that way, and I think a lot of people don't like the sound of that when they hear it said that way, however that does at times seem to be the way a lot of people think.

Until it's proven someone did a crime, they shouldn't be punished, I don't just mean criminally. If your life is hindered in other ways, that is a bad thing as well. The only things that I think it's reasonable to make the accused deal with, are things that are either based on a-the safety of the accuser/alleged victim or b-things that pertain to the investigation.

Whether or not a guy can still play football pertains to neither one of those things, therefore no accusation should effect whether a guy gets to play imo, until there is sufficient evidence of their guilt. If perhaps the accuser somehow works where the accused does, they should maybe have extra security there, and do what they can to try and keep the 2 from encountering each other. However, terminating them on some moral ground because they MIGHT be guilty, isn't something I approve of, and is in an of itself imo, immoral.

For the accusation to not hinder someones' life, people would need to approach things with an 'innocent until proven guilty' mind set. I think sometimes people get so caught up in making sure celebrities/rich people get held accountable, that they may forget about making sure they even did what they were accused of.

It is key to stay objective, and try to avoid 'confirmation bias' when it comes to punishing someone. You can believe whatever you want about a case, however when you punish someone due to that view, it is different. That is why I hate vigilantes who act based on an assumption when they don't know what really happened. In truth, I have more comtempt for them than someone who beats someone up in a mugging, because while I don't like the mugger either, at least the mugger doesn't likely carry themselves with what I think is a false sense of righteousness in their actions.

I understand you aren't a vigilante, and probably don't condone vigilantism either, however I felt I should throw that in because it shows a potential consequence of punishing someone before you know if they are guilty.

I realize that trying to make it so less people get away with rapes should be a priority as well, however I think we should look for ways to do that that don't increase the odds of an innocent person being punished.

broncoslover115
04-17-2015, 04:33 PM
My exact question to you was if you would care if he went through all of this needlessly, as in he was proven innocent. Your reply was no, you don't care about him at all and that you can't stand him. That is a pretty clear answer. Those that are falsely accused are victimized as well. Working in that field, one of which I have worked in before, with that kind of attitude is disturbing.

OK, let me clarify then. I think I was responding as if you asked two separate questions. Let me separate them. About the case...If he is innocent, then I hope he is found to be innocent and that this suit is thrown out. He shouldn't have to go through that.

As a person...I don't care about him as a person. I don't like him. I don't like his self-absorbed, self-entitlement. I don't have to like him. I can't stand him. So, perhaps I could have been clearer. I answered my personal feelings about him in regards to the case. I hope that clarifies things.

Now, you are correct. Those that are falsely accused are victimized as well. And, it's a terrible thing. It shouldn't happen but it does. And, as I said, it also goes the other way where people commit sexual assault and get away with it as well. So, I just wanted to put that out there too. That seems to always be forgotten in these conversations.

And as a rape counselor, I do feel that I want to bring the voice of the victim into these conversations. I want to remind people, if he isn't innocent, then the timing is right for her. She has been trying to have her voice heard for 3 years, this is her last remedy. I know people get pissed sometimes that I hold the victim's voice in these conversations. But I feel it is important. I know I'm biased that way. But when things like this come up and all I read is how terrible the timing is for him, yeah, I get annoyed. So, I respond that there are two people in this conversation. It's not all about him and how terrible it is for him. If he did it, then it was also terrible for her. I just want to remind folks about that.

And please, don't ever reduce my work with victims to being about hating men. It makes my work trivial. And it couldn't be further from the truth.

JJBroncoFan
04-17-2015, 04:54 PM
I meant in no way to minimize what you do into a byproduct of hating men. I felt as if your response warranted the question, although I probably worded too much like an accusation for which I apologize.

As far as Winston himself, I think your assessment of his character is fair. I don't not care for him as well. However, that has little to do with the situation.

I can certainly understand why it would be frustrating for you to hear things about this being inconvenient for him. However, if he is innocent, then it is far from inconvenient. She will walk with a slap on the wrist and it will still follow him, it always does.

Garfield
04-17-2015, 07:20 PM
Do you mean that they think his celebrity status will make it far too difficult to ever convict him, or more so that they feel it's out of their league, and that they wouldn't be able to get a conviction if they tried? If they think that, I think the Aaron Hernandez case should perhaps give them confidence that they'd be able to convict a celebrity.

there is a WORLD of difference between AH case in the north east and this kids in Florida.

there was overwhelming evidence in the former and he said, she said in the latter.

not even mentioning he is s super star in Florida in college. Where college football is king.

not saying it is the right thing, just that is how it is.

Garfield
04-17-2015, 07:22 PM
Well....it's a good thing she wasn't "assaulted" by a poor man, then there would be no justice at all.

had she reported it to the police then the poor man probably would have been convicted.

weefishy
04-17-2015, 08:07 PM
Unfortunate that I think Tampa will draft him.

I adopted Tampa as my "2nd" NFL team. I won't be watching if that guy is it. Ecch.

broncoslover115
04-17-2015, 08:26 PM
had she reported it to the police then the poor man probably would have been convicted.

She did report it to the police, I believe the night it allegedly happened. She also reported to the college. No one took her claims seriously. Her filing a civil suit is her last remedy and course of action. Several people assume she is doing this just for money. Maybe. Well, she exhausted her other options so she is taking the last option available to her. So would I and so would most people in this same situation.

fallforward3y+
04-18-2015, 12:07 AM
She did report it to the police, I believe the night it allegedly happened. She also reported to the college. No one took her claims seriously. Her filing a civil suit is her last remedy and course of action. Several people assume she is doing this just for money. Maybe. Well, she exhausted her other options so she is taking the last option available to her. So would I and so would most people in this same situation.

In this particular situation, I do see plenty of reason other than the money to go forward with a law suit. Whenever there is a motive of money, there is good reason to question a law suit imo, however in this situation it seems like the criminal avenue wasn't working out for her.

Because she tried the criminal avenue first, and didn't go for a law suit until after trying those options and it not working out, I doubt she is doing this for the money. It could be the case, however personally I doubt it.

The way you say college sexual assaults are handled sounds disturbing. It sounds like they want to protect themselves from law suits, which is understandable, but doesn't justify that kind of mishandling of sexual assault allegations. It's unfair to sue the school just because something happens to you on school grounds imo, however if the school mishandles your allegation, that is worthy of a law suit imo.

fallforward3y+
04-18-2015, 12:30 AM
there is a WORLD of difference between AH case in the north east and this kids in Florida.

there was overwhelming evidence in the former and he said, she said in the latter.

not even mentioning he is s super star in Florida in college. Where college football is king.

not saying it is the right thing, just that is how it is.

You do have a point, and it's a shame if a case gets overlooked because the accused is someone people admire. Hoping they didn't do it is ok with me, however ignoring the case due to hoping they didn't do it is not ok with me. The case should be investigated like any other, and if there is sufficient evidence of their guilt, put them in jail.

If one of my favorite players got convicted of a rape they did commit, then sure I'd be bummed about how it may hurt their team or not getting to watch them play, however if they did in fact commit it, I would feel they deserved what they got, and that it would be wrong not to punish them.

Garfield
04-18-2015, 02:37 AM
You do have a point, and it's a shame if a case gets overlooked because the accused is someone people admire. Hoping they didn't do it is ok with me, however ignoring the case due to hoping they didn't do it is not ok with me. The case should be investigated like any other, and if there is sufficient evidence of their guilt, put them in jail.

If one of my favorite players got convicted of a rape they did commit, then sure I'd be bummed about how it may hurt their team or not getting to watch them play, however if they did in fact commit it, I would feel they deserved what they got, and that it would be wrong not to punish them.

In some states or areas it is not admiration but they are bonafide heroes. I have to wonder if this gal would have even went out or hooked up with him IF he was not the stud QB that just won the Heisman.

there are loads of gold diggers that only date the star players hoping for a long term commitment.

not saying she is one as I know very little about the case other than it sounds like a he said, she said deal.

I also know that super stars feel entitled because of the hero worship that happens in many areas, so it is just as likely he did rape the girl.

But again unless it is on tape, odds are the star is going to get away with little or no consequences.

fallforward3y+
04-18-2015, 03:10 AM
In some states or areas it is not admiration but they are bonafide heroes. I have to wonder if this gal would have even went out or hooked up with him IF he was not the stud QB that just won the Heisman.

there are loads of gold diggers that only date the star players hoping for a long term commitment.

not saying she is one as I know very little about the case other than it sounds like a he said, she said deal.

I also know that super stars feel entitled because of the hero worship that happens in many areas, so it is just as likely he did rape the girl.

But again unless it is on tape, odds are the star is going to get away with little or no consequences.

I don't know a whole lot about the case either, however it sounds like he said/she said. Unfortunately, that's the case with a lot of sexual assaults I believe, it may be difficult to find sufficient proof that non consensual sex happened. This is especially true when neither side disputes that intercourse happened, however they differ on whether or not it was consensual, and it can be hard to tell what the truth is.

Both of the things you listed are things that likely do happen often, and that wouldn't surprise me at all if something similar to them happened. You could have a gold digger who perhaps hooked up with him, wanted a long term commitment, got upset that he didn't want it, cried rape. You could also have a star athlete who wasn't used to hearing 'no', got upset when he heard no, maybe felt entitled thinking that she should want to hook up with him, and then raped her.

Perhaps whatever happened could have happened for other reasons too, I'm not sure.

Unfortunately though, I think your right. If he didn't do it, it's a good thing for him not to be punished, however unfortunately people may not fairly consider the girl's side of the story as well.

broncoslover115
04-18-2015, 03:34 AM
In this particular situation, I do see plenty of reason other than the money to go forward with a law suit. Whenever there is a motive of money, there is good reason to question a law suit imo, however in this situation it seems like the criminal avenue wasn't working out for her.

Because she tried the criminal avenue first, and didn't go for a law suit until after trying those options and it not working out, I doubt she is doing this for the money. It could be the case, however personally I doubt it.

The way you say college sexual assaults are handled sounds disturbing. It sounds like they want to protect themselves from law suits, which is understandable, but doesn't justify that kind of mishandling of sexual assault allegations. It's unfair to sue the school just because something happens to you on school grounds imo, however if the school mishandles your allegation, that is worthy of a law suit imo.

When an allegation of sexual assault is mishandled on a college campus, the victim is not suing the school, they file a complaint with the Department of Education under Title IX. Title IX specifies that sexual misconduct in education includes any unwanted and unwelcome sexual behavior that significantly interferes with a student's access to educational opportunities. The Supreme Court has confirmed that schools have an obligation under Title IX to prevent and address sexual misconduct against students, regardless of whether the sexual misconduct is perpetrated by peers, teachers, or other school officials.

The Department of Education then investigates the allegations and determines how the case was handled, looks at the school's policies and procedures and determines whether the school interfered with the student from pursing their education free from sexual misconduct. If they are found to be in violation, the Department of Education will give the school time to fix their policies and procedures or risk losing their Title IX funding which is millions and millions of dollars.

However, it should be noted that it has taken the Dept of Education years to conduct these investigations and the actual investigations aren't working either. President Obama and Joe Biden aren't happy that it is taking so long so they have instituted more guidelines and want these cases investigated more swiftly so that they don't go on and on...like the Ted Wells report of "Deflategate." :P

In this case the woman is suing Winston, not the school.

the0rangecrush
04-18-2015, 04:28 AM
In some states or areas it is not admiration but they are bonafide heroes. I have to wonder if this gal would have even went out or hooked up with him IF he was not the stud QB that just won the Heisman.

there are loads of gold diggers that only date the star players hoping for a long term commitment.

not saying she is one as I know very little about the case other than it sounds like a he said, she said deal.

I also know that super stars feel entitled because of the hero worship that happens in many areas, so it is just as likely he did rape the girl.

But again unless it is on tape, odds are the star is going to get away with little or no consequences.

All of this occurred prior to Winston's Heisman season. It only received national attention before the BCS game.

CoryWinget81
04-18-2015, 09:51 AM
Her story has remained word for word the same. Winston and his friends, keep forgetting this piece, or that piece, or "misremembering" and "misspeaking" and they all pretty much sound like his lawyers original statement.

His lawyer, for the record, was allowed to talk to everyone involved before the police did.

He's guilty, and because hes an athlete he got away with rape.


I hope he gets his legs blown out or suffers the worst concussion in NFL history.

CanDB
04-18-2015, 11:51 AM
Her story has remained word for word the same. Winston and his friends, keep forgetting this piece, or that piece, or "misremembering" and "misspeaking" and they all pretty much sound like his lawyers original statement.

His lawyer, for the record, was allowed to talk to everyone involved before the police did.

He's guilty, and because hes an athlete he got away with rape.


I hope he gets his legs blown out or suffers the worst concussion in NFL history.

Those are very strong words, especially if he is innocent. We can speculate, but to judge is a sensitive zone.

Garfield
04-18-2015, 01:20 PM
All of this occurred prior to Winston's Heisman season. It only received national attention before the BCS game.

thanks for that information, is there any debate in your mind he was viewed at that time as stud super star QB?

That he had a bright future in the NFL?

If the answer to any of those is yes, then I rest my responses to what I said above in post 30.

Garfield
04-18-2015, 01:21 PM
Her story has remained word for word the same. Winston and his friends, keep forgetting this piece, or that piece, or "misremembering" and "misspeaking" and they all pretty much sound like his lawyers original statement.

His lawyer, for the record, was allowed to talk to everyone involved before the police did.

He's guilty, and because hes an athlete he got away with rape.


I hope he gets his legs blown out or suffers the worst concussion in NFL history.

lets hope that you never get on a jury for anything, as IMO your off the charts hangem high.

fallforward3y+
04-18-2015, 01:37 PM
Her story has remained word for word the same. Winston and his friends, keep forgetting this piece, or that piece, or "misremembering" and "misspeaking" and they all pretty much sound like his lawyers original statement.

His lawyer, for the record, was allowed to talk to everyone involved before the police did.

He's guilty, and because hes an athlete he got away with rape.


I hope he gets his legs blown out or suffers the worst concussion in NFL history.

I'm with CanDB and Garfield, your making a presumption and you don't know for sure. It's ok to think he's guilty, but your acting like you know, and wishing for something like that to happen when you don't know if he's guilty or not is a huge stretch.

You should never be on a jury imo.

Garfield
04-18-2015, 01:43 PM
I'm with CanDB and Garfield, your making a presumption and you don't know for sure. It's ok to think he's guilty, but your acting like you know, and wishing for something like that to happen when you don't know if he's guilty or not is a huge stretch.

You should never be on a jury imo.

Hey I do not like the kid, I think he is going to flame out in the NFL, I also suspect that he has forced himself on others not willing to be put through the wringer this gal is.

But to say


He's guilty, and because hes an athlete he got away with rape.


without more evidence than we are seeing it is (I'll be kind) harsh to be so sure.

the0rangecrush
04-18-2015, 03:42 PM
thanks for that information, is there any debate in your mind he was viewed at that time as stud super star QB?

That he had a bright future in the NFL?

If the answer to any of those is yes, then I rest my responses to what I said above in post 30.

To answer the question, No.

fallforward3y+
04-18-2015, 03:58 PM
Hey I do not like the kid, I think he is going to flame out in the NFL, I also suspect that he has forced himself on others not willing to be put through the wringer this gal is.

But to say



without more evidence than we are seeing it is (I'll be kind) harsh to be so sure.

I don't know much about the case to really make a good judgment. The biggest thing I've heard in Winston's favor I found in an article today and it was that a toxicology report supposedly indicated the woman had never been drugged, though she said she was.

Garfield
04-18-2015, 04:16 PM
I don't know much about the case to really make a good judgment. The biggest thing I've heard in Winston's favor I found in an article today and it was that a toxicology report supposedly indicated the woman had never been drugged, though she said she was.

Thanks for the info.

However unless it comes straight from the horses mouth, sheriff, prosecuting attorney I beleive it as far as I can throw the reporter.

Other than Adam s And Lindsay Jones I have zero faith in reports. Those two seem to do fact checking before reporting stuff

Now that said even they have been wrong on stuff.

When it comes down to legal things only those actually investigating or prosecuting it have merit. Even then they make mistakes.

IMO if it comes from the Internet it is usually highly inaccurate.

fallforward3y+
04-18-2015, 04:55 PM
Thanks for the info.

However unless it comes straight from the horses mouth, sheriff, prosecuting attorney I beleive it as far as I can throw the reporter.

Other than Adam s And Lindsay Jones I have zero faith in reports. Those two seem to do fact checking before reporting stuff

Now that said even they have been wrong on stuff.

When it comes down to legal things only those actually investigating or prosecuting it have merit. Even then they make mistakes.

IMO if it comes from the Internet it is usually highly inaccurate.

The article did seem a bit biased in Winston's favor, although I suppose they could be basing that bias off of credible evidence. You could be right though, many reports may not be accurate. Some reporters have a tendency to skew things in order to fit their agenda or bias. Some reports may be biased in the accuser's favor as well, for whatever agenda or bias they may have.

Garfield
04-18-2015, 06:54 PM
The article did seem a bit biased in Winston's favor, although I suppose they could be basing that bias off of credible evidence. You could be right though, many reports may not be accurate. Some reporters have a tendency to skew things in order to fit their agenda or bias. Some reports may be biased in the accuser's favor as well, for whatever agenda or bias they may have.

As I said very few reporters and especially sports repeorters just report the facts and nothing but the facts.

Adam S and Lindsay J are the only ones I trust about bronco stuff.

But in these case no one has has the facts. Just the he said she said.

CoryWinget81
04-18-2015, 10:53 PM
I've seen and heard all the evidence I need to see to make my mind up.

Winston is a noted liar and thief, and has used his "celebrity" to wiggle out of trouble before. As I said, I've read a ton on both sides, and its very obvious he's guilty.

So yep, sure, hang em high. Nothing more than an over privileged brat who's been bailed out time and again because he throws a football real good.

I will giggle my ass off if they have to cart famous Jameis off the field, and I won't feel a damn bit sorry.

dizzolve
04-18-2015, 11:20 PM
Just because of the optics of it, the timing of the suit is terrible.

They say it won't affect his draft status, I guess we will see soon enough.

Couldn't agree more. Maybe it's true that she's only now able to file the charges due to circumstances beyond her control and if that's the case - well then it's a coincidence. But the timing is fishy.

Maybe she doesn't care about the money. Maybe she just wants to ruin dude's life best she can. If she is a victim, I could see this being real motivation.

The way the NFL is coming down on cases of assault like this I wouldn't be surprised if JW had to wait till next season to be eligible to be drafted. Maybe pending the results of the case. Maybe just as a suspension. Either way, the NFL can't find a break. Here we go into the draft and were back to Man on Woman assault again. ..... maybe the NFL finds that they just wont have it.

edit

so -this is just a civil suit?

broncoslover115
04-19-2015, 06:36 AM
Couldn't agree more. Maybe it's true that she's only now able to file the charges due to circumstances beyond her control and if that's the case - well then it's a coincidence. But the timing is fishy.

Maybe she doesn't care about the money. Maybe she just wants to ruin dude's life best she can. If she is a victim, I could see this being real motivation.

The way the NFL is coming down on cases of assault like this I wouldn't be surprised if JW had to wait till next season to be eligible to be drafted. Maybe pending the results of the case. Maybe just as a suspension. Either way, the NFL can't find a break. Here we go into the draft and were back to Man on Woman assault again. ..... maybe the NFL finds that they just wont have it.

edit

so -this is just a civil suit?

Yes, this is just a civil suit and the NFL teams already knew and expected this to happen.

Why is the timing fishy? She has been trying to deal with this since 2012. She went to the police, she went to the college and they shut her down. She exhausted all her criminal options so this is her last legal remedy..going the civil route.

Why would he have to wait until next year to be drafted? Why would he even be suspended? I don't understand. The NFL has no authority to make a ruling on his case. This all happened before he got there. They know everything.

I would venture to say that the only thing that would happen is that he drops from the #1 draft slot to the # 2, if that and that was potentially already happening anyway due to teams being leary of his off the field issues and problematic character.

This will only impact him financially, if that if they find him responsible in a civil court. And a civil suit will most likely take a year or 2 so it wont happen overnight.

broncoslover115
04-19-2015, 07:38 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/04/16/sports/errors-in-inquiry-on-rape-allegations-against-fsu-jameis-winston.html?_r=0

Tallahassee, Fla. — Early on the morning of Dec. 7, 2012, a freshman at Florida State University reported that she had been raped by a stranger somewhere off campus after a night of drinking at a popular Tallahassee bar called Potbelly’s.

As she gave her account to the police, several bruises began to appear, indicating recent trauma. Tests would later find semen on her underwear.

For nearly a year, the events of that evening remained a well-kept secret until the woman’s allegations burst into the open, roiling the university and threatening a prized asset: Jameis Winston, one of the marquee names of college football.

Three weeks after Mr. Winston was publicly identified as the suspect, the storm had passed. The local prosecutor announced that he lacked the evidence to charge Mr. Winston with rape. The quarterback would go on to win the Heisman Trophy and lead Florida State to the national championship.

After a Florida State student accused quarterback Jameis Winston of rape, the police did not interview him or obtain his DNA. Phil Sears/Associated Press

In his announcement, the prosecutor, William N. Meggs, acknowledged a number of shortcomings in the police investigation. In fact, an examination by The New York Times has found that there was virtually no investigation at all, either by the police or the university.

The police did not follow the obvious leads that would have quickly identified the suspect as well as witnesses, one of whom videotaped part of the sexual encounter. After the accuser identified Mr. Winston as her assailant, the police did not even attempt to interview him for nearly two weeks and never obtained his DNA.

The detective handling the case waited two months to write his first report and then prematurely suspended his inquiry without informing the accuser. By the time the prosecutor got the case, important evidence had disappeared, including the video of the sexual act.

“They just missed all the basic fundamental stuff that you are supposed to do,” Mr. Meggs said in a recent interview. Even so, he cautioned, a better investigation might have yielded the same result.

The case has unfolded as colleges and universities across the country are facing rising criticism over how they deal with sexual assault, as well as questions about whether athletes sometimes receive preferential treatment. The Times’s examination — based on police and university records, as well as interviews with people close to the case, including lawyers and sexual assault experts — found that, in the Winston case, Florida State did little to determine what had happened.

So, the reason Erica is filing this civil lawsuit is because the police and the college did not do anything to investigate what happened. The prosecutor in this case is the one who said that normal investigative procedures were not followed.

Garfield
04-19-2015, 08:20 AM
Couldn't agree more. Maybe it's true that she's only now able to file the charges due to circumstances beyond her control and if that's the case - well then it's a coincidence. But the timing is fishy.

Maybe she doesn't care about the money. Maybe she just wants to ruin dude's life best she can. If she is a victim, I could see this being real motivation.

The way the NFL is coming down on cases of assault like this I wouldn't be surprised if JW had to wait till next season to be eligible to be drafted. Maybe pending the results of the case. Maybe just as a suspension. Either way, the NFL can't find a break. Here we go into the draft and were back to Man on Woman assault again. ..... maybe the NFL finds that they just wont have it.

edit

so -this is just a civil suit?

Since all it is at this point is "she said" there is zero possibility they would not allow him to be drafted.
There would be a lawsuit of epic proportions.

Garfield
04-19-2015, 08:36 PM
I have little doubt about that percentage, although a lot may not be willing to say it out loud.

Funny thing about legal facts, they don't always add up to real life. The legal process we have is a joke and that is why many have a harsh way of looking at it. Lawyers are ruining this country, at least half of them are unethical at best.

on this I totally agree.

we can take them all out and get rid of them starting with all of them in government.

JJBroncoFan
04-19-2015, 08:40 PM
on this I totally agree.

we can take them all out and get rid of them starting with all of them in government.

Could not agree more, I feel sorry for those that actually believe in justice and want to see it served. They don't even have a chance.

fallforward3y+
04-19-2015, 11:38 PM
I don't recall him saying anything about a vigilante act. He said if bad luck came his way he would not feel sorry for him, and would feel "karma" brought justice essentially. That is quite different than saying someone should get him.

Bad people get away with a lot because scumbag lawyers find some nonsense procedural issue or equally unimportant garbage. It happens all the time and it frustrates people which is understandable to me.

I don't even necessarily agree with Cory's stance, but I understand the frustration.

I said that I didn't believe he was a vigilante, and I don't think he was actually advocating that. However, since he's actually wishing injury on him, I figured I should point out that that is how vigilantes who try and punish people before they have more evidence or facts about what happened think. I'm trying to make a point to how dangerous that line of thinking can be.

I don't think CoryWinget81 is some big danger to society, however I think the mind set he is saying he has can be dangerous.

Look, I can see why things can get frustrating sometimes. You may see people get off for crimes if they are guilty, and not so much because you can't find sufficient evidence of their guilt, but more so because that evidence isn't allowed in court. However, each case should be judged on an individual basis, and you shouldn't punish someone based on presumptions. 'Confirmation bias' can lead to bad presumptions imo. If you believe someone is guilty, you may end up seeing a lot of things as being signs that they are guilty, perhaps even create traps where regardless of what they do, you think it points to their guilt.

If we can get punished easily before there is evidence that we are guilty, then things could get pretty bad. If people think that all they have to do is accuse someone of a crime to get them thrown in jail, then we'd likely fear the justice system. I don't like people getting away with harming people, however I'd rather people get away with harming people, than have innocent people be punished, sometimes our freedom likely requires certain sacrifices.

Thinking people are guilty is fine to me, but punishing them based on that belief without sufficient evidence is different. I realize he wasn't talking about actually harming Winston, however when someone acts as if they know someone is guilty when they don't, it can be troubling to me.

CoryWinget81
04-20-2015, 05:27 AM
I have read, heard from the woman her account of the rape, and seen how the school, police, and justice system protected Winston.

You guys might think it's wrong or immature, but I have the facts I need. He got away with rape and no amount of pandering will likely change my mind.

That you can lose disrespect over someone stating their opinion on a known criminal, just makes me think I probably didn't need it in the first place.

Jameis Winston is a criminal and a rapist. Period.

dizzolve
04-20-2015, 05:34 AM
Since all it is at this point is "she said" there is zero possibility they would not allow him to be drafted.
There would be a lawsuit of epic proportions.

It's been said many times that playing in the NFL is a privilege not a 'right'. And in light of the new focus and new strict stance on assault in particular, I wouldn't be surprised to see the NFL do something we haven't yet seen. With Goodell in power, there's no telling. He could completely ignore it - or he could come down hard on it.

If there is enough evidence to win a civil case - that might be enough for the NFL. But, I have little to no idea of the facts of this particular case.

broncolee
04-20-2015, 06:38 AM
It's been said many times that playing in the NFL is a privilege not a 'right'. And in light of the new focus and new strict stance on assault in particular, I wouldn't be surprised to see the NFL do something we haven't yet seen. With Goodell in power, there's no telling. He could completely ignore it - or he could come down hard on it.

If there is enough evidence to win a civil case - that might be enough for the NFL. But, I have little to no idea of the facts of this particular case.

I think Goodell would have a major fight on his hands that he has no shot at winning, if he tries to punish Jameis Winston.

There is the Terrell Pryor case but that can't really be used as precedent. Pryor skipped out on an NCAA punishment that he had promised to abide by. While I think Goodell should have refused Pryor's request to enter the supplemental draft, he chose to coerce Pryor into accepting what was really a meaningless suspension. I don't think Winston's case can be treated the same way.

broncoslover115
04-20-2015, 07:19 AM
It's been said many times that playing in the NFL is a privilege not a 'right'. And in light of the new focus and new strict stance on assault in particular, I wouldn't be surprised to see the NFL do something we haven't yet seen. With Goodell in power, there's no telling. He could completely ignore it - or he could come down hard on it.

If there is enough evidence to win a civil case - that might be enough for the NFL. But, I have little to no idea of the facts of this particular case.

Roger Goodell has already met with Winston and told him he needs to clean up his act. However, there is no way that the NFL would prevent Winston from entering the draft. As I said, the NFL teams have already expected this civil suit, they knew it was coming. There was an Outside the Lines report on Sunday about this case, specifically the new civil suit and everyone on there agreed that the NFL has no authority to take any action against Winston, they all said that the Bucs and all the teams interested in Winston knew this civil suit was coming and it probably would have no bearing on his draft status.

Garfield
04-20-2015, 11:15 AM
It's been said many times that playing in the NFL is a privilege not a 'right'. And in light of the new focus and new strict stance on assault in particular, I wouldn't be surprised to see the NFL do something we haven't yet seen. With Goodell in power, there's no telling. He could completely ignore it - or he could come down hard on it.

If there is enough evidence to win a civil case - that might be enough for the NFL. But, I have little to no idea of the facts of this particular case.

The problem is the draft is a few days away and the civil suit could take years to play out.

Since th NFL is not in the loop of the chain evidence or lack thereof, it would be a mega lawsuit in the making if they denied him the chance to be drafted.

For that matter even if they hint about is and if all of a sudden he slides to #10 instead of one. His agent and attorneys will be out for blood.

So no they can't do anything until it plays out in court, even the doubtful they would do something unless he is found guilty in a real court not just I up where the proof level is much higher than civil court.
It is not going to happen.

broncoslover115
04-20-2015, 12:30 PM
The problem is the draft is a few days away and the civil suit could take years to play out.

Since th NFL is not in the loop of the chain evidence or lack thereof, it would be a mega lawsuit in the making if they denied him the chance to be drafted.

For that matter even if they hint about is and if all of a sudden he slides to #10 instead of one. His agent and attorneys will be out for blood.

So no they can't do anything until it plays out in court, even the doubtful they would do something unless he is found guilty in a real court not just I up where the proof level is much higher than civil court.
It is not going to happen.

Wrong... the NFL have already talked about this case, the civil lawsuit and the rape allegations. I keep saying, the NFL knew this lawsuit was coming, they expected it. Outside the Lines covered this lawsuit on Sunday.

If he slides to number 10 in the draft it will be because teams in the NFL have finally realized that Jameis Winston is a self-entitled, self-absorbed, pampered, narcissistic, ego maniacal creep and possible rapist, who has severe character issues and doesn't deserve to be the #1 or #2 draft pick. Even his own lawyer has said he is not ready for the NFL because he has, cough, cough, "immaturity" issues.

Rastic
04-20-2015, 12:35 PM
In some states or areas it is not admiration but they are bonafide heroes. I have to wonder if this gal would have even went out or hooked up with him IF he was not the stud QB that just won the Heisman.

there are loads of gold diggers that only date the star players hoping for a long term commitment.

not saying she is one as I know very little about the case other than it sounds like a he said, she said deal.

I also know that super stars feel entitled because of the hero worship that happens in many areas, so it is just as likely he did rape the girl.

But again unless it is on tape, odds are the star is going to get away with little or no consequences.

I've hesitated even reading this thread because these topics are touchy - and for good reasons. Rape is a serious allegation, one which authorities must take seriously.

I got to this post and about blew my top. But before I call down fire and brimstone it's probably more than fair to ask for some clarification. So, can you explain this? From the sound of it I can't help but think there is some blame being cast as the woman.

It is undeniable that people, men and women alike, often cast themselves at people of wealth and means. That is nothing new. Some of those people go beyond the groupie-type lifestyle hitched to some one else and take opportunity that can and has led to fraudulent charges against somebody who is innocent.

The fault I think I am seeing here is walking the fine line between understanding that she could have been trying to connect herself Winston for her own selfish desires. Were that even true, if she was a "gold digger" does that mean she is partially at fault if this rape story turns out to be true?

I hope I am reading way to much in to this than you meant and would be happy to be corrected.

broncoslover115
04-20-2015, 12:59 PM
In some states or areas it is not admiration but they are bonafide heroes. I have to wonder if this gal would have even went out or hooked up with him IF he was not the stud QB that just won the Heisman.

there are loads of gold diggers that only date the star players hoping for a long term commitment.

not saying she is one as I know very little about the case other than it sounds like a he said, she said deal.

I also know that super stars feel entitled because of the hero worship that happens in many areas, so it is just as likely he did rape the girl.

But again unless it is on tape, odds are the star is going to get away with little or no consequences.


You do realize that at the time of the incident:

1. Winston was not a high profile athlete yet at the time of the incident.
2. Winston had not won the Heisman yet.
3. When the victim reported it to the police, she didn't know his name because she said it was a stranger.
4. His name became known several weeks later.
5. She therefore didn't "hook up" with him because he was a stud QB who just won the Heisman.

fallforward3y+
04-20-2015, 01:52 PM
I've hesitated even reading this thread because these topics are touchy - and for good reasons. Rape is a serious allegation, one which authorities must take seriously.

I got to this post and about blew my top. But before I call down fire and brimstone it's probably more than fair to ask for some clarification. So, can you explain this? From the sound of it I can't help but think there is some blame being cast as the woman.

It is undeniable that people, men and women alike, often cast themselves at people of wealth and means. That is nothing new. Some of those people go beyond the groupie-type lifestyle hitched to some one else and take opportunity that can and has led to fraudulent charges against somebody who is innocent.

The fault I think I am seeing here is walking the fine line between understanding that she could have been trying to connect herself Winston for her own selfish desires. Were that even true, if she was a "gold digger" does that mean she is partially at fault if this rape story turns out to be true?

I hope I am reading way to much in to this than you meant and would be happy to be corrected.

I can't speak for him, but my guess is you did read something into it that he didn't intend. I doubt he meant that being a gold digger would mean she is at fault if she was raped. I imagine he doesn't like gold diggers, I don't care much for them either, but not liking someone and feeling they deserved to be raped are 2 very different things imo.

It seemed more like he was mentioning a motive for why she may have made it up entirely, why she may have said a rape happened even if it never did. Later in his post, he mentions that it is just as likely that he did rape the girl, and gives a reason for why he may have done that as well.

Essentially, he seemed to be giving ways of how him being a star athlete could have in some way related to the situation. If he is innocent, perhaps being a star athlete made him a target, and if he is guilty, perhaps a sense of entitlement he got from his treatment as a star athlete influenced a 'won't take no for an answer' attitude that he may have had.

JJBroncoFan
04-20-2015, 02:16 PM
Lol its not enough to have armchair GMs and know it all personalities but now we have amateur lawyers giving legal advice. Gotta live these boards.

Taos_Broncomaniac
04-20-2015, 03:11 PM
Wouldn't you love to be the Bucs GM on draft day?

The stolen fish incident was enough for me. :rolleyes:

CoryWinget81
04-20-2015, 03:20 PM
Who exactly are you accusing of having attempts at victim shaming? Give me a break dude, no one is doing that.

Yes, he was overreaching with the defamation suit, but if your saying crap like this it is understandable to me why he felt so strongly against your opinion, he probably just let his strong feelings get the better of him. You do know he mentioned a possibility that she was telling the truth right? He even said it was JUST as likely. In what way is that victim shaming?

I guess in your eyes, being objective and giving the accused a fair chance is 'victim shaming'.

I stand by what I said before, you should never be on a jury. Maybe one day, you'll be accused of a crime you didn't commit, and you'll finally get why people don't take kindly to you saying things like this.

no the "timing is fishy" and similar comments are the subtle victim shaming.

If I were on a jury and this came to docket, I have no doubt in my mind it would be a unanimous verdict. Both the victim and Jameis himself were denied justice in this case. If he so vehemently believed he didn't do it, why was he protected, why did his lawyer get access to witnesses, testimony and evidence before the police?

He's a liar, thief, and a real piece of work as a human being. Do you think this is the last time this is going to happen? It's going to happen again and it's going to be worse. He's used to the system working for him and he's used to walking away from everything smelling like roses.

Freyaka
04-20-2015, 03:52 PM
no the "timing is fishy" and similar comments are the subtle victim shaming.

If I were on a jury and this came to docket, I have no doubt in my mind it would be a unanimous verdict. Both the victim and Jameis himself were denied justice in this case. If he so vehemently believed he didn't do it, why was he protected, why did his lawyer get access to witnesses, testimony and evidence before the police?

He's a liar, thief, and a real piece of work as a human being. Do you think this is the last time this is going to happen? It's going to happen again and it's going to be worse. He's used to the system working for him and he's used to walking away from everything smelling like roses.

More often than not people seem to want to white knight the defendant and accuse the woman (either directly, or subtly like you were pointing out) of basically just being out for money...It's disgusting. Like you I've seen more than enough information on this case that even if he somehow dropped in our laps I'd pray the team was smart enough to stay away from him.

I don't care how much talent he has, there is enough to go on to assume with reasonable suspicion that he is a rapist and a criminal.

fallforward3y+
04-20-2015, 04:28 PM
no the "timing is fishy" and similar comments are the subtle victim shaming.

If I were on a jury and this came to docket, I have no doubt in my mind it would be a unanimous verdict. Both the victim and Jameis himself were denied justice in this case. If he so vehemently believed he didn't do it, why was he protected, why did his lawyer get access to witnesses, testimony and evidence before the police?

He's a liar, thief, and a real piece of work as a human being. Do you think this is the last time this is going to happen? It's going to happen again and it's going to be worse. He's used to the system working for him and he's used to walking away from everything smelling like roses.

The poster who said the timing was fishy clarified what they meant, it didn't seem like they were doing that to me.

Look, you might be right, but it seems like it's a reach to act as if it's a sure thing, it sounds like your making presumptions. He may be hiding behind his lawyer because he's guilty, but sometimes that's just how people think, especially rich people-guilty or not, if your charged with something, call your lawyer.

fallforward3y+
04-20-2015, 04:36 PM
More often than not people seem to want to white knight the defendant and accuse the woman (either directly, or subtly like you were pointing out) of basically just being out for money...It's disgusting. Like you I've seen more than enough information on this case that even if he somehow dropped in our laps I'd pray the team was smart enough to stay away from him.

I don't care how much talent he has, there is enough to go on to assume with reasonable suspicion that he is a rapist and a criminal.

And sometimes people want to white knight the accuser and say that it's wrong to question the story, it goes both ways. Sometimes people like to throw around terms like 'victim blame' perhaps to try and guilt people into saying the defendant is guilty. Sometimes people may acknowledge the POSSIBILITY of someone being out for money, but not be accusing them of doing it.

Sometimes people white knight by criticizing teams for signing players accused of things when there isn't sufficient evidence that they are guilty. Granted, those are often instances of people trolling rival teams, but some people generally do that to any team.

I'm not sure what this strong evidence of his guilt is. 'Reasonable suspicion' to me is not enough to refuse to draft someone, to me there needs to be more sufficient evidence for that to happen. Otherwise, it seems to come down to 'if your accused, you did it', with little chance for the person accused to state their case.

Ultimately, it can be very hard to prove you never did something.

CoryWinget81
04-20-2015, 05:06 PM
There's no doubt that being falsely accused of rape is a dreadful thing that no one should have to endure. One of the reasons it is such a dreadful thing is that false accusations of rape basically do not happen. Statistically, between 2% and 8% of reported rapes are found to be false, but only about 40% of rapes are reported. Do a little math and that means that, for every false accusation of rape, there are up to 100 actual rapes that take place. There were 83,000 forcible rapes reported to the authorities in 2011, which means there were somewhere between 1,500 and 6,500 false accusations of rape. In a country of 300,000,000. Over a year.

That makes your odds of being falsely accused of rape at somewhere between 50,000 and 200,000 to 1. (The odds of actually being arrested are even less, since only one in 10 rapists is ever arrested, putting the odds of you being arrested, let alone convicted, on a false charge at about two million to one.) Let's put this in context: the odds that you will be falsely accused of rape are basically the same as the odds that you or someone in your family will be struck by lightning. Your odds of being falsely accused of rape are about the same as your odds of being attacked by a shark. Or, if you prefer to put this in football terms, your odds of falsely being accused of rape are substantially longer than the chances of the 2-10 Tampa Bay Buccaneers winning this year's Super Bowl.

So, yes, one must be extraordinarily unlucky to be falsely accused of rape. But this is precisely why drawing an equivalence between rape and false rape accusations is so bankrupt. One is a pervasive social problem that affects millions; the other is a freak occurrence, like the birth of a two-headed calf.


http://deadspin.com/jameis-winston-is-not-a-victim-1666874524

broncoslover115
04-20-2015, 05:16 PM
And sometimes people want to white knight the accuser and say that it's wrong to question the story, it goes both ways. Sometimes people like to throw around terms like 'victim blame' perhaps to try and guilt people into saying the defendant is guilty. Sometimes people may acknowledge the POSSIBILITY of someone being out for money, but not be accusing them of doing it.

Sometimes people white knight by criticizing teams for signing players accused of things when there isn't sufficient evidence that they are guilty. Granted, those are often instances of people trolling rival teams, but some people generally do that to any team.

I'm not sure what this strong evidence of his guilt is. 'Reasonable suspicion' to me is not enough to refuse to draft someone, to me there needs to be more sufficient evidence for that to happen. Otherwise, it seems to come down to 'if your accused, you did it', with little chance for the person accused to state their case.

Ultimately, it can be very hard to prove you never did something.

Perhaps it would be helpful if you learned the facts of this case. You keep saying that you don't know what the evidence is or what occurred. There is plenty of information out there if you are truly interested in learning what occurred and what happened and how this was covered up by the college and the local law enforcement agency in FL.
Just a thought.

This article might be a good place to start if you are interested in finding out what happened.

http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/story/jameis-winston-florida-state-tallahassee-police-hindered-investigation-documents-101014

CoryWinget81
04-20-2015, 05:22 PM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/04/16/lawsuit-against-winston-refers-to-second-victim/


“On October 25, 2013, Plaintiff’s victim advocate at FSU informed her that a second woman had come forward and reported being sexually assaulted by Winston,” the complaint alleges at paragraph 13.

Freyaka
04-20-2015, 05:32 PM
Perhaps it would be helpful if you learned the facts of this case. You keep saying that you don't know what the evidence is or what occurred. There is plenty of information out there if you are truly interested in learning what occurred and what happened and how this was covered up by the college and the local law enforcement agency in FL.
Just a thought.

This article might be a good place to start if you are interested in finding out what happened.

http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/story/jameis-winston-florida-state-tallahassee-police-hindered-investigation-documents-101014

That's the great thing about this conversation...The ones boo hooing Cory for coming to a logical conclusion haven't educated themselves on the facts of the story... There are plenty of damning facts out there that make it pretty easy to draw his conclusion

Let's put it this way...It's rare to see such a cover up happen on someone without guilt. There really isn't a reason to hinder an investigation of an innocent person. Now the indication that there was a second woman...

I'm sorry but at this point if I were an NFL GM, I'd rather have Tim Tebow throwing bounce passes for my team than this guy... The more I see of the guy, the more I hope teams think long and hard about making him a member of their team.

fallforward3y+
04-20-2015, 08:26 PM
There's no doubt that being falsely accused of rape is a dreadful thing that no one should have to endure. One of the reasons it is such a dreadful thing is that false accusations of rape basically do not happen. Statistically, between 2% and 8% of reported rapes are found to be false, but only about 40% of rapes are reported. Do a little math and that means that, for every false accusation of rape, there are up to 100 actual rapes that take place. There were 83,000 forcible rapes reported to the authorities in 2011, which means there were somewhere between 1,500 and 6,500 false accusations of rape. In a country of 300,000,000. Over a year.

That makes your odds of being falsely accused of rape at somewhere between 50,000 and 200,000 to 1. (The odds of actually being arrested are even less, since only one in 10 rapists is ever arrested, putting the odds of you being arrested, let alone convicted, on a false charge at about two million to one.) Let's put this in context: the odds that you will be falsely accused of rape are basically the same as the odds that you or someone in your family will be struck by lightning. Your odds of being falsely accused of rape are about the same as your odds of being attacked by a shark. Or, if you prefer to put this in football terms, your odds of falsely being accused of rape are substantially longer than the chances of the 2-10 Tampa Bay Buccaneers winning this year's Super Bowl.

So, yes, one must be extraordinarily unlucky to be falsely accused of rape. But this is precisely why drawing an equivalence between rape and false rape accusations is so bankrupt. One is a pervasive social problem that affects millions; the other is a freak occurrence, like the birth of a two-headed calf.


http://deadspin.com/jameis-winston-is-not-a-victim-1666874524

That article is CLEARLY biased, I don't take it seriously. I acknowledged that what I heard about the toxicology report may have been inaccurate, and this doesn't look anymore trustworthy. I'd rather see stats from a more credible source. Let me make something perfectly clear. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING you can say to me that will make me support punishing someone on an accusation alone, NOTHING, and this article based on ideas I find very faulty only further confirms my views of the dangers of the line of thinking that it seems to be advocating.

We'll start with it's criticism of Winston saying being falsely accused of rape is like being raped. I imagine he is talking about the suffering of someone who has been falsely accused being akin to the suffering of a rape victim. I don't want to debate whether that's true or not, I don't necessarily agree with it, it may vary on a case by case basis(Brian Banks probably suffered worse than many who are falsely accused, for instance)......However-regardless, it's reasoning for why it's different is something that gets under my skin a lot, which is making individual cases about some big cultural epidemic, instead of focusing on the case itself.

Basically what I'm getting at is, even if someone is the only person to ever suffer through something in the history of the world....it doesn't somehow mean they suffered any less. How much of a problem false allegations are in society has zero bearing on how difficult it is to go through.

Then, there is the use of the statistical probability of a false allegation to determine what is 'beyond a reasonable doubt', which also relates to judging an individual case based off of statistics that relate to other cases. This case is an individual case, the % of times other accusers tell the truth has no bearing on whether or not Winston's accuser did.

Plus, 'innocent until proven guilty' is based on the idea that it's worse for someone to get away with a crime than for someone to be punished for one they didn't do, so saying the latter happens more often than the former isn't necessarily a convincing argument. I believe 'better 10 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man be punished' or something similar, was once said.

fallforward3y+
04-20-2015, 08:51 PM
Perhaps it would be helpful if you learned the facts of this case. You keep saying that you don't know what the evidence is or what occurred. There is plenty of information out there if you are truly interested in learning what occurred and what happened and how this was covered up by the college and the local law enforcement agency in FL.
Just a thought.

This article might be a good place to start if you are interested in finding out what happened.

http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/story/jameis-winston-florida-state-tallahassee-police-hindered-investigation-documents-101014

It does smell a lot like bad protocol by the investigators, I will grant you that, and this article does seem much more credible. Some of the actions listed in the article done by Winston and his legal team could be seen as trying to cover something up, I can see why someone would come to that conclusion. However, I also think it could be attributed to a 'stop it before it starts' type of mind set, where they don't want to take any chances.

She didn't identify Winston as her attacker initially, which is in her favor, and because he wasn't as known at the time, I don't think it was some elaborate plan. That is pretty good evidence against ideas of her doing this for reasons of gold digging, which eliminates the strongest apparent motive to me for her to make this up imo, if she didn't believe she could get money out of it.

To be clear though, I'm not arguing at all that I think he's innocent, and I think there are good arguments for him being guilty. However, I'm not sure they are good enough for me to support punishments based on the allegation. I will say that based on this article, it doesn't seem the accuser got a fair chance at an investigation, hopefully she will get a good opportunity to state her case at this trial. However, her not getting a fair chance at an investigation isn't enough for me to say I strongly feel he is guilty.

I just don't see enough there to say he's guilty beyond a 'reasonable doubt', or to not draft him because of it. That's been my issue, acting as if it's a certainty.

broncoslover115
04-21-2015, 08:11 AM
In some states or areas it is not admiration but they are bonafide heroes. I have to wonder if this gal would have even went out or hooked up with him IF he was not the stud QB that just won the Heisman.

there are loads of gold diggers that only date the star players hoping for a long term commitment.

not saying she is one as I know very little about the case other than it sounds like a he said, she said deal.

I also know that super stars feel entitled because of the hero worship that happens in many areas, so it is just as likely he did rape the girl.

But again unless it is on tape, odds are the star is going to get away with little or no consequences.

There was a video tape and it miraculously disappeared. How lucky for him.

broncoslover115
04-21-2015, 08:18 AM
It does smell a lot like bad protocol by the investigators, I will grant you that, and this article does seem much more credible. Some of the actions listed in the article done by Winston and his legal team could be seen as trying to cover something up, I can see why someone would come to that conclusion. However, I also think it could be attributed to a 'stop it before it starts' type of mind set, where they don't want to take any chances.

She didn't identify Winston as her attacker initially, which is in her favor, and because he wasn't as known at the time, I don't think it was some elaborate plan. That is pretty good evidence against ideas of her doing this for reasons of gold digging, which eliminates the strongest apparent motive to me for her to make this up imo, if she didn't believe she could get money out of it.

To be clear though, I'm not arguing at all that I think he's innocent, and I think there are good arguments for him being guilty. However, I'm not sure they are good enough for me to support punishments based on the allegation. I will say that based on this article, it doesn't seem the accuser got a fair chance at an investigation, hopefully she will get a good opportunity to state her case at this trial. However, her not getting a fair chance at an investigation isn't enough for me to say I strongly feel he is guilty.

I just don't see enough there to say he's guilty beyond a 'reasonable doubt', or to not draft him because of it. That's been my issue, acting as if it's a certainty.

A defense lawyer should NEVER be given evidence, emails, DNA, a videotape, reports and what have you BEFORE the damn prosecutor so they can prepare their case before it's even investigated. EVER!!!! This was a clear case of a cover up. Period. For the love of God, the prosecutor himself said as much. The prosecutor was completely hamstrung himself. By the time he got the case the DNA was tampered with or explained away, the video was gone, gone, gone. How damn convenient for Winston. The police and the college should have also been brought up on charges of legal misconduct.

There are steps that law enforcement must take in order to investigate a crime. They didn't do any of it. Then once they gather the evidence, they turn it over to the DA, who determines whether there is enough to charge someone with a crime. Well, the Winston camp already had the evidence BEFORE the prosecutor. How the hell is that OK? There shouldn't be a "stop it before it starts" mindset. The defense should have never been given anything before the DA. Jeez, I'm not sure why that doesn't make anyone want to pull their hair out.

If I were her, I'd also be suing the police and the college.

Anyway, I'm done commenting on this case and this thread. It just pisses me off to no end and keeps me angry and upset and I need something more positive to think about.

EddieMac
04-21-2015, 09:38 AM
no the "timing is fishy" and similar comments are the subtle victim shaming.

If I were on a jury and this came to docket, I have no doubt in my mind it would be a unanimous verdict. Both the victim and Jameis himself were denied justice in this case. If he so vehemently believed he didn't do it, why was he protected, why did his lawyer get access to witnesses, testimony and evidence before the police?

He's a liar, thief, and a real piece of work as a human being. Do you think this is the last time this is going to happen? It's going to happen again and it's going to be worse. He's used to the system working for him and he's used to walking away from everything smelling like roses.


More often than not people seem to want to white knight the defendant and accuse the woman (either directly, or subtly like you were pointing out) of basically just being out for money...It's disgusting. Like you I've seen more than enough information on this case that even if he somehow dropped in our laps I'd pray the team was smart enough to stay away from him.

I don't care how much talent he has, there is enough to go on to assume with reasonable suspicion that he is a rapist and a criminal.


The poster who said the timing was fishy clarified what they meant, it didn't seem like they were doing that to me.

Look, you might be right, but it seems like it's a reach to act as if it's a sure thing, it sounds like your making presumptions. He may be hiding behind his lawyer because he's guilty, but sometimes that's just how people think, especially rich people-guilty or not, if your charged with something, call your lawyer.

Because I am one of the two " fishy timing people" let me clarify again. I say that objectively as an observation that many will make. I am not putting it towards her credibility whatsoever. One can't look at it, unless they are the girl and her attorney, knowing EXACTLY the timing and how things have happened, and not ask the question. Why now? Why when there has been so much press about Winston being the top pick and the draft around the corner is her attorney filing now?

He or she might have the simplest, most innocuous answer and lay that to rest. But you can bet it will be asked and without a good answer, it will muddy waters.

Also, being in a profession where I know how the media reports, as a simple rule, don't believe any of it. Take it all with a grain of salt.

Ok enough said on that. Let's not get too chippy here or this thread will have to go to p&r.

ebsoria
04-21-2015, 09:42 AM
Ok enough said on that. Let's not get too chippy here or this thread will have to go to p&r .

Quoting so this point is not lost.

martz11
04-21-2015, 03:01 PM
Reading some of these comments makes me wonder if anybody read the 80 some page police report.

CanDB
04-22-2015, 07:45 PM
I learned many, many years ago that you never declare someone guilty until proven so. No, I have not read reports. But, last time I looked, I am not a judge. And as for what I can figure, none (or few) of us are.

Freyaka
04-22-2015, 08:08 PM
I learned many, many years ago that you never declare someone guilty until proven so. No, I have not read reports. But, last time I looked, I am not a judge. And as for what I can figure, none (or few) of us are.

But we also aren't a court of law and are all entitled to our opinions. You don't have to be a judge or lawyer to have those.

CanDB
04-22-2015, 08:26 PM
But we also aren't a court of law and are all entitled to our opinions. You don't have to be a judge or lawyer to have those.

Frey.....it becomes very sensitive turf when everyday folks start making "assumptions" about guilt, especially on such serious matters.

fallforward3y+
04-22-2015, 09:49 PM
Frey.....it becomes very sensitive turf when everyday folks start making "assumptions" about guilt, especially on such serious matters.

Agreed, it is and does, I think we've seen that here. People, myself included will likely feel strongly on certain things, and that can lead to a sensitive topic. From here on out, I think it's best I stay out of these topics on here. They can be good things to discuss, but imo it's probably better for them to be in 'anything goes' because the subject matter usually ends up seemingly not relating to football very much.

I am retiring from topics about players criminal cases on this forum, at least for now, possibly for good.

CanDB
04-23-2015, 08:32 AM
Agreed, it is and does, I think we've seen that here. People, myself included will likely feel strongly on certain things, and that can lead to a sensitive topic. From here on out, I think it's best I stay out of these topics on here. They can be good things to discuss, but imo it's probably better for them to be in 'anything goes' because the subject matter usually ends up seemingly not relating to football very much.

I am retiring from topics about players criminal cases on this forum, at least for now, possibly for good.

My advice to you.....take a break but don't go too far from the scene. You are a bright dude and have every right to express your opinion. This is one topic that borders on being exclusive to the Locker Room, so I am not surprised that it has caused some "passion". And like it or not, I stand by my position.....and I will be so bold as to say that I am correct. Correct in that I do not believe we should proclaim that someone committed a serious crime until we know all there is to know.....100%.

Yes.....the court of public opinion can become a scary place. There are far too many examples of that in the world. We live in civilized countries (The US and Canada in our cases) who have legal systems that determine guilt and innocence. Though not flawless, I concede to their process before any public opinion approach. Sure, our opinion as individuals are often solid, and correct. But we may have biases, and we often only have partial information.

Regardless, I taught my kids to honour the law, and I will continue to do so, even at times when it "appears" shaded to some. Do I wonder about the fairness of it all, particularly when the wealthy/influential are involved.....sure.

fallforward3y+
04-23-2015, 08:36 PM
My advice to you.....take a break but don't go too far from the scene. You are a bright dude and have every right to express your opinion. This is one topic that borders on being exclusive to the Locker Room, so I am not surprised that it has caused some "passion". And like it or not, I stand by my position.....and I will be so bold as to say that I am correct. Correct in that I do not believe we should proclaim that someone committed a serious crime until we know all there is to know.....100%.

Yes.....the court of public opinion can become a scary place. There are far too many examples of that in the world. We live in civilized countries (The US and Canada in our cases) who have legal systems that determine guilt and innocence. Though not flawless, I concede to their process before any public opinion approach. Sure, our opinion as individuals are often solid, and correct. But we may have biases, and we often only have partial information.

Regardless, I taught my kids to honour the law, and I will continue to do so, even at times when it "appears" shaded to some. Do I wonder about the fairness of it all, particularly when the wealthy/influential are involved.....sure.

Thanks. We do all indeed have the right to express our opinion, however at times one may want to stay away from certain topics.

I agree with a lot of what you have said here, I do believe it is very important to not say you know someone is guilty if you really do not, and to not punish them unless you have sufficient proof. Many times, there likely isn't a way to avoid there being negative consequences, and you have to pick the 'lesser of 2 evils'. I do not like the idea of people getting away with harming others, however the consequences of 'guilty until proven innocent' would imo be much, much worse.

I don't agree with every law, nor do I feel something being law automatically makes it right, and I can't say I've never broken it. After all, j-walking across a road with no cars within 200 meters is technically a crime. I do want the law there, and I feel in most cases it is best to leave it up to the law to try and resolve matters of serious crimes such as murder, rape or etc.

CanDB
04-25-2015, 10:17 AM
Thanks. We do all indeed have the right to express our opinion, however at times one may want to stay away from certain topics.

I agree with a lot of what you have said here, I do believe it is very important to not say you know someone is guilty if you really do not, and to not punish them unless you have sufficient proof. Many times, there likely isn't a way to avoid there being negative consequences, and you have to pick the 'lesser of 2 evils'. I do not like the idea of people getting away with harming others, however the consequences of 'guilty until proven innocent' would imo be much, much worse.

I don't agree with every law, nor do I feel something being law automatically makes it right, and I can't say I've never broken it. After all, j-walking across a road with no cars within 200 meters is technically a crime. I do want the law there, and I feel in most cases it is best to leave it up to the law to try and resolve matters of serious crimes such as murder, rape or etc.

I hear ya.

CanDB
04-29-2015, 10:31 AM
After all the hype, the discussion and the concerns, and given the due diligence that the NFL teams expend to assess the merit of drafting certain "risk related" players, especially in the top section of the draft......if Winston gets selected at #1 (or anywhere close to the top), it does make me wonder about the case discussed in this thread. These are huge investments, and if someone has issues that are unwise to endorse, in terms of signing to a contract, I assume they will uncover every single tidbit of information that may give any life to a guilty outcome, especially given the magnitude of the type of crime involved.

So, from that vantage point, conclusive or inconclusive, it will be interesting if he gets selected as expected. However, it will be even more interesting/concerning if his stock falls.

Even though I do not condone everything that the NFL does.....in fact I am suspicious of some its intentions, which are highly motivated by profit. (Of course that can be said about many businesses). But one thing I am quite sure about is the due diligence taken when a huge investment is being evaluated.

In the end, the law has a process, and even if I suggest that the NFL is extremely diligent, that still does not prove one's innocence or guilt. But it will be interesting given all we have read / heard.

broncoslover115
05-01-2015, 05:24 AM
So does someone want to tell me again how this has hurt his poor career and how he has been tarnished?

:rolleyes:

#87Birdman
05-01-2015, 06:44 AM
So does someone want to tell me again how this has hurt his poor career and how he has been tarnished?

:rolleyes:

He got drafted by the Bucs.. Isn't that enough punishment :P




*This is a joke & even with this being a serious topic I am still going to make it, so have a nice day :D*

broncoslover115
05-01-2015, 02:05 PM
He got drafted by the Bucs.. Isn't that enough punishment :P




*This is a joke & even with this being a serious topic I am still going to make it, so have a nice day :D*

Well, you do have a point there.

CanDB
05-01-2015, 04:00 PM
I have been defending him, not because I care for the guy, but because it's my sense on how the law should work (innocent until proven otherwise). But something about him tells me he will not be the success that many think he will be.

He already did a bonehead thing since being drafted (making light of a certain seafood he didn't pay for), and based on what I hear, read and observe, he needs to do a lot of maturing....if nothing else.

broncoslover115
05-01-2015, 04:12 PM
I have been defending him, not because I care for the guy, but because it's my sense on how the law should work (innocent until proven otherwise). But something about him tells me he will not be the success that many think he will be.

He already did a bonehead thing since being drafted (making light of a certain seafood he didn't pay for), and based on what I hear, read and observe, he needs to do a lot of maturing....if nothing else.

You call it doing a boneheaded thing. I call it being his usual arrogant, self-entitled, self-absorbed, narcissistic self. He just can't help it. It's who he is.

CanDB
05-02-2015, 10:23 AM
You call it doing a boneheaded thing. I call it being his usual arrogant, self-entitled, self-absorbed, narcissistic self. He just can't help it. It's who he is.

OK......maybe a better choice of words.