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LASERLIPS
11-30-2015, 12:00 PM
First off, I sincerely hope Gronk recovers speedily. I like to see our guys tackle well and hit hard, but I never wish injury on anyone. And I felt proud to be a Broncos fan watching/hearing the fans/players reactions as he was being carted off the field. Showed a lot of class.

Having said that, does anyone know why we did not follow the Bills strategy of double teaming Gronk the entire night? I kept waiting to see the Broncos adjust, and unless I missed it, it seemed Wade for whatever reason did not want to use the philosophy the Bills used the previous week, which rendered Gronkowski ineffective. Does anyone know why we did not put 2 guys on him the whole night? Was this question asked at some point in a post game presser? I ask simply because, going into the game, it sure seemed like a big deal in my mind, in regards to shutting down their offense, and I would've thought, given the success Rex Ryan and the Bills defense had just 1 week ago, we may have followed suit and put 2 guys on Gronk.

LASERLIPS
12-01-2015, 10:08 AM
Bump.

Have no idea why people aren't discussing this more. It's a big deal in my mind. We will likely see the Pats again in the playoffs, and if we defend Gronk the same way we did Sunday night, it will not end well, in my opinion.

Any conjecture (or if Wade has already been asked & given a straight up answer) as to why we did not put 2 guys on Gronk?

GiddyupGetEm
12-01-2015, 10:16 AM
With Lewis, Edelman and Amendola out, I was sure our personnel could handle doubling up on Gronk. Then he torches us on the first drive. Kubiak said their formations make it hard to double Gronk. I don't buy that. When you make a concerted effort to double someone, the formations should be irrelevant. I think they wanted to see how much they thought either Ward and Marshall could handle him.

My bigger question is why we didn't blitz more. I saw a four man rush on too many passing plays.

LASERLIPS
12-01-2015, 10:20 AM
Hmm, I missed Kubiak's response to that, but I was kinda speculating that could've been the response given, if asked. I'm not sure I completely buy that either. At the end of the day, it's 11 guys against 11 guys. I do get that formations make it difficult at times, but figure it out, man!

dipablo
12-01-2015, 10:20 AM
First off, I sincerely hope Gronk recovers speedily. I like to see our guys tackle well and hit hard, but I never wish injury on anyone. And I felt proud to be a Broncos fan watching/hearing the fans/players reactions as he was being carted off the field. Showed a lot of class.

Having said that, does anyone know why we did not follow the Bills strategy of double teaming Gronk the entire night? I kept waiting to see the Broncos adjust, and unless I missed it, it seemed Wade for whatever reason did not want to use the philosophy the Bills used the previous week, which rendered Gronkowski ineffective. Does anyone know why we did not put 2 guys on him the whole night? Was this question asked at some point in a post game presser? I ask simply because, going into the game, it sure seemed like a big deal in my mind, in regards to shutting down their offense, and I would've thought, given the success Rex Ryan and the Bills defense had just 1 week ago, we may have followed suit and put 2 guys on Gronk.

I was there and i have to say most of the Denver fans around me where pretty classless and embarrassing, cheering when he went down and yelling things like "i hope he dies" i told a few around me to shut up hes a human being and its just a game but they ignored me. It was nice hearing the clapping when he was put on the cart but i bet it was only 1/4 of us there that did and mostly pats fans.

Was very disappointed in the bronco fans, i thought we were better then that.

#24 Next Champ
12-01-2015, 10:57 AM
Didn't like Wades gameplan for Pats at all...why can't we ever get a d coordinator who can play them the right way??

How do you leave Gronk 1v1 when he's their only legit weapon??? Really tho

#24 Next Champ
12-01-2015, 11:01 AM
To add on to that tho...

You CANNOT just rush 4 against Brady...bring 5...don't let the routes all open where he can find someone deep wide open or on a double move

Brady had nowhere to go early and he still wasn't getting sacked (know it kinda goes hand in hand) but I would almost always bring 5 against him

We better change it up next time...

#24 Next Champ
12-01-2015, 11:03 AM
To further add on...snow could've also been a factor and a reason why we didn't man up and press much...so who knows

XterraRob
12-01-2015, 12:00 PM
Didn't like Wades gameplan for Pats at all...why can't we ever get a d coordinator who can play them the right way??

How do you leave Gronk 1v1 when he's their only legit weapon??? Really tho

Do you know everything Wade Phillips and his staff knew? Are you able to put together a better plan? Do you think the Pats came into this game to play us the same way they played the Bills? Not every defensive plan is going to be successful, no matter how much planning. The Patriots offense is a very challenging group of guys along with the play calling by Josh McD. It isn't as simple as black and white.

In regards to pass rushing Brady, yes it's effective if it can be disguised. If you've watched the Patriots play before, they use a lot of quick dumps/short passes to move the ball up the field. We used our LBs to stack the middle of the field to help cut off his options. Otherwise you give up lots of plays because everyone is busy going after Brady and not covering receivers.

ArchAngel
12-01-2015, 12:42 PM
Yea, that threw me for a loop as well. Gronk wasnt even jamed at the line either. He was getting a free release and the cover guy played ten yards off! Even Collinsworth commented that if that was going to be the Broncos tactic, it was going to be a long day.

Hawaii007
12-01-2015, 01:48 PM
With Lewis, Edelman and Amendola out, I was sure our personnel could handle doubling up on Gronk. Then he torches us on the first drive. Kubiak said their formations make it hard to double Gronk. I don't buy that. When you make a concerted effort to double someone, the formations should be irrelevant. I think they wanted to see how much they thought either Ward and Marshall could handle him.

My bigger question is why we didn't blitz more. I saw a four man rush on too many passing plays.

Doubling Gronk split out wide is a tough proposition, a LBer going out into that area would leave a smaller defender in the box exposing the team to the run. Leaving a DB out there with a safety over the top leaves a LBer on a slot receiver one-on-one over the middle. The Bills doubled Gronk with two guys when he was in-line, it is easier there, but when he was split out wide, they seemed to keep a DB on him, but then got torched by the slot guys against the LBers on the inside.

fore2213
12-01-2015, 02:19 PM
Who was Talib on most of the night? Isnt he big enough to hang with Gronk?

chad72
12-01-2015, 02:28 PM
Do you know everything Wade Phillips and his staff knew? Are you able to put together a better plan? Do you think the Pats came into this game to play us the same way they played the Bills? Not every defensive plan is going to be successful, no matter how much planning. The Patriots offense is a very challenging group of guys along with the play calling by Josh McD. It isn't as simple as black and white.

In regards to pass rushing Brady, yes it's effective if it can be disguised. If you've watched the Patriots play before, they use a lot of quick dumps/short passes to move the ball up the field. We used our LBs to stack the middle of the field to help cut off his options. Otherwise you give up lots of plays because everyone is busy going after Brady and not covering receivers.

Given the LB coverage limitations, I felt Wade had the right game plan but Brady executed very well, IMO. The goal was to make Brady throw outside the numbers but by isolating the LBs vs RBs, Josh McDaniels made those throws outside the numbers easier. If it was throwing to a TE covered by a safety or a WR covered by a CB outside the numbers, Brady would have had to thread the needle more which he is not good at outside the numbers. Carson Palmer is the best deep ball throw, IMO, given how well he can drop it in the bread basket for a WR streaking down the sideline.

You play Brady with 3 safeties and 3 CBs and have just 2 LBs and 3 DL for run support given their pass to run ratio this year, IMO. The free release, if you don't give it, the Patriots will stack the wideouts, there are ways to get around it, you just have to go toe-to-toe and execute.

samparnell
12-01-2015, 02:43 PM
With Lewis, Edelman and Amendola out, I was sure our personnel could handle doubling up on Gronk. Then he torches us on the first drive. Kubiak said their formations make it hard to double Gronk. I don't buy that. When you make a concerted effort to double someone, the formations should be irrelevant. I think they wanted to see how much they thought either Ward and Marshall could handle him.

My bigger question is why we didn't blitz more. I saw a four man rush on too many passing plays.

You should read Bill Walsh's thirteen part outline on how to dictate to defenses using formations. After sending in a personnel package in response to the offense, a front and coverage is called and then they must align to the formation shown.

Rob Gronkowski doesn't always line up tight on LOS. There are four other eligible receivers as well.

Only eleven of Tom Brady's 42 pass attempts were thrown to WRs. He threw 22 at TEs, and nine at RBs. Multiple TE formations with RBs running routes are one way of getting favorable coverage matchups as in the 63 yard TD to Brandon Bolden.

This is achieved through formations since the D must align to them. If it's Cover 1/0, defenders count in from the outside. Motion can result in a Backer with a difficult coverage assignment. Wade Phillips was forced into using more zone than he prefers due to the formations and routes used by the Pats*.

cmc0605
12-01-2015, 03:57 PM
The problem with rushing more than four against Tom Brady is that he gets rid of the ball so quick, that it just doesn't really matter. So it's worth it to sacrifice some pressure for coverage, especially since you know he's going to hit those dink-and-dunk routes for under 10 yards and hope they run after the catch. They do an amazing job of getting their receivers in space, and the NE model has always been to get guys with elite quickness (not necessarily speed, or homerun threats). They like the high percentage passes, and bringing tons of heat is not necessarily the way to beat that.

That said, I agree the opening gameplan against Gronk was awful, but they did seem to adjust. He was pretty quiet for most of the game after that first series. Hopefully they know now that Darian Stewart playing off against Gronk is not the way to do it...

Pats did have a good gameplan though getting our LBs out there in isolation, as the commentators noted. I'd play extra DBs and dare them to run the ball. But we lost our NT and safety who basically plays like a LB. It's tough with the matchups...makes me wonder why only one team out there really has a tactical genius coaching for them, and then a bunch of other people.

pozbaird
12-01-2015, 07:52 PM
I was there and i have to say most of the Denver fans around me where pretty classless and embarrassing, cheering when he went down and yelling things like "i hope he dies" i told a few around me to shut up hes a human being and its just a game but they ignored me. It was nice hearing the clapping when he was put on the cart but i bet it was only 1/4 of us there that did and mostly pats fans.

Was very disappointed in the bronco fans, i thought we were better then that.

My wife and I were in Block 536. When Gronk went down we didn't hear a single unsavoury or abusive comment made in his direction. It was in fact silent as people saw him immediately wave his arm around to signal he was in real trouble. People seemed to think it was serious. A couple of Broncos fans near us said something like 'Gronkowski isn't the kind of guy to go down if he isn't hurt'. Everyone applauded as he went off.

Interceptor
12-01-2015, 07:54 PM
This was the preseason game. Vanilla. Saving the good stuff for the playoffs?

bronx_2003
12-02-2015, 12:11 PM
I could care less whether he was out for the season or not, so what if he got put on IR ? Boo hoo. Its only an injury, not life threatening. He gets paid a fortune to do some rehab work and watch football...... tough life.

I can't stand NE. One of their beat writer's was moaning AGAIN about the referee today, they never lose because they were beaten by a better side on the day do they. Then Brady talks about wanting ANOTHER rule changed to help the offense.

Their whole team could land on IR and I would not care one jot, tbh it would be justice for their whinging and Brady dragging the NFL through the mud in the off-season

Danger Zone
12-13-2015, 09:50 PM
I could care less whether he was out for the season or not, so what if he got put on IR ? Boo hoo. Its only an injury, not life threatening. He gets paid a fortune to do some rehab work and watch football...... tough life.

I can't stand NE. One of their beat writer's was moaning AGAIN about the referee today, they never lose because they were beaten by a better side on the day do they. Then Brady talks about wanting ANOTHER rule changed to help the offense.

Their whole team could land on IR and I would not care one jot, tbh it would be justice for their whinging and Brady dragging the NFL through the mud in the off-season

I only remember ONE rule change being implemented because of something that happened to Brady and I don't believe it was a new rule so much as it was an amendment or clarification of what should rightfully be called the Palmer Rule (after Palmer lost a season from a similar low hit). Of course, this gets overlooked and it gets improperly labeled the Brady Rule. Even then, do you think its okay for quarterbacks to be hit in the knee or below?

Can you give me another example of an actual rule being changed to help Brady?

HUMCALC
12-13-2015, 10:15 PM
I only remember ONE rule change being implemented because of something that happened to Brady and I don't believe it was a new rule so much as it was an amendment or clarification of what should rightfully be called the Palmer Rule (after Palmer lost a season from a similar low hit). Of course, this gets overlooked and it gets improperly labeled the Brady Rule. Even then, do you think its okay for quarterbacks to be hit in the knee or below?

Can you give me another example of an actual rule being changed to help Brady?

The Tuck rule. No one had ever heard of it before him

Danger Zone
12-14-2015, 12:26 AM
The Tuck rule. No one had ever heard of it before him

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/03/20/nfl-rescinds-tuck-rule/HvKSMTSMVWYDfGVMljdVxN/story.html#skip-target1

Yes, but it's hardly an example of the League creating rules to cater to him. Sure, that call became famous because of Brady, but Brady was not Mr Too Successful So We Hate Him Brady in Jan. 2002. You certainly could say that its because of the dislike for Brady that the rule gets later rescinded.. not created.

The Tuck Rule for the record was created in 1999.

And no, the refs had heard of the Tuck Rule before. It was called against the Patriots earlier in the same season.


On Tuesday morning, when coach Bill Belichick was asked about the possible elimination of the rule, he noted that while the rule went New England’s way in the postseason, it went against the Patriots in the regular season that year.

In Week 2 at home against the Jets, Anthony Pleasant strip-sacked Vinny Testaverde on first and goal from the Patriots 10 in the second quarter, and Richard Seymour recovered the fumble.

The play was reversed after review under the tuck rule. Despite retaining possession, the Jets didn’t score a touchdown but did get a field goal, tying the game at 3-3. Curtis Martin’s third-quarter TD gave New York a 10-3 win.