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45guy
01-07-2016, 05:10 PM
What in your opinion determines a great QB? Is it wins and loses? Playoff performance? Super bowl wins? Quarterback rating? Heart? Also what in your opinion gives a guy the reputation of not getting it done in the post season? Again wins or loses, Int's. to touchdowns? I am really interested in knowing what you all think.

ELWAY421
01-07-2016, 05:17 PM
What in your opinion determines a great QB? Is it wins and loses? Playoff performance? Super bowl wins? Quarterback rating? Heart? Also what in your opinion gives a guy the reputation of not getting it done in the post season? Again wins or loses, Int's. to touchdowns? I am really interested in knowing what you all think.

I'll just give you a few names.

Joe Montana
Tom Brady

^^^ That would be your standard.

Blanket24
01-07-2016, 05:19 PM
I think leadership, clutch play, consistent winning seasons, legacy creating moments in big games (preferably the playoffs), consistent playoff success (preferably with a championship run or 2 in the mix), and the benchmark stat lines of the era the qb is playing in.

ELWAY421
01-07-2016, 05:20 PM
I forgot Elway lol, I'd say it's all of what you mention. All of the above.

ELWAY421
01-07-2016, 05:23 PM
Peyton Manning is the greatest regular season QB of all time, but if asked me to take one QB of all time for a playoff run it wouldn't be Manning. I can't say he'd even be in the top 10. If you said can you have one QB's mind then it would be Manning.

diesel51
01-07-2016, 05:23 PM
Average QB has TD:INT of 1:1.
Good QB ratio is 2:1.
Great QB ratio is 3:1.
Elite QB ratio is 4:1 or greater.

Now, take your great Qbs and Elite Qbs and compare win/loss records, playoff records and that seperates them even more.

After that its based off your preferences. Some may appreciate the "heart", but sometimes a player who exhibits heart makes a turnover, gets injured, etc. and there will be people who call that boneheaded playing.

My two cents.

Butler By'Note
01-07-2016, 05:30 PM
I'll just give you a few names.

Joe Montana
Tom Brady

^^^ That would be your standard.

Both are extremely overrated IMO. Montana was great in part because of the supporting cast (he would have been very good on his own, but not considered an all time great) and the coaching. Brady is so overrated, his first few years he was a game manager and handed off the ball and was asked not to make mistakes, he did it well, but he was hardly the QB that revisionist history has made him. When they switched the offense around him they quit winning Super Bowls. Nw they've gone back to an offense where he's a game manager* and they're back to winning.

*Patriots fans will talk about him "picking the Seahawks apart" last year in the SB with 37 completions, HOWEVER, 32 of 37 completions were thrown 5 yards or less from the line of scrimmage, he threw short passes and the WRs got YAC, that turned to first downs. He isn't very good throwing it down field and is essentially a glorified Alex Smith.

Assassin27
01-07-2016, 05:39 PM
Both are extremely overrated IMO. Montana was great in part because of the supporting cast (he would have been very good on his own, but not considered an all time great) and the coaching. Brady is so overrated, his first few years he was a game manager and handed off the ball and was asked not to make mistakes, he did it well, but he was hardly the QB that revisionist history has made him. When they switched the offense around him they quit winning Super Bowls. Nw they've gone back to an offense where he's a game manager* and they're back to winning.

*Patriots fans will talk about him "picking the Seahawks apart" last year in the SB with 37 completions, HOWEVER, 32 of 37 completions were thrown 5 yards or less from the line of scrimmage, he threw short passes and the WRs got YAC, that turned to first downs. He isn't very good throwing it down field and is essentially a glorified Alex Smith. Montana overrated....HMMMMM!!! 13 tds 0ints in 4 SBs 4-0 in SB far from overrated. The guy invented the word CLUTCH!!!!!! He won his first 2 SBs with nobody....yes he had Rice for the next 2 but it was like playing Madden with Rice!!!!

Papa-pwn
01-07-2016, 05:41 PM
I think a combination of wins and individual success are what make a career great.

ELWAY421
01-07-2016, 05:41 PM
Both are extremely overrated IMO. Montana was great in part because of the supporting cast (he would have been very good on his own, but not considered an all time great) and the coaching. Brady is so overrated, his first few years he was a game manager and handed off the ball and was asked not to make mistakes, he did it well, but he was hardly the QB that revisionist history has made him. When they switched the offense around him they quit winning Super Bowls. Nw they've gone back to an offense where he's a game manager* and they're back to winning.

*Patriots fans will talk about him "picking the Seahawks apart" last year in the SB with 37 completions, HOWEVER, 32 of 37 completions were thrown 5 yards or less from the line of scrimmage, he threw short passes and the WRs got YAC, that turned to first downs. He isn't very good throwing it down field and is essentially a glorified Alex Smith.


I guess you have your way at looking at things, and I have mine. The two QB's I mentioned are two of the best of all time imo.

ELWAY421
01-07-2016, 05:47 PM
Montana overrated....HMMMMM!!! 13 tds 0ints in 4 SBs 4-0 in SB far from overrated. The guy invented the word CLUTCH!!!!!! He won his first 2 SBs with nobody....yes he had Rice for the next 2 but it was like playing Madden with Rice!!!!


I don't believe I've ever heard Montana called overrated, but I'll say this, even with Rice Cincinnati gave them all they could handle in the 88/89 Super Bowl. Montana led that drive and hit John Taylor for the go ahead.

Butler By'Note
01-07-2016, 05:51 PM
I guess you have your way at looking at things, and I have mine. The two QB's I mentioned are two of the best of all time imo.

Alright, let mask you this: Switch Montana and Elway, do the 49ers win Super Bowls? Do the Broncos go to Super Bowls? To me that answers which is better there.

Do you consider them the best because of their individual talents and accomplishments or because their teams have won Super Bowls?

Montana and Brady are both good to great QBs, no doubt, but, in my opinion, both benefited greatly from the cast around them and that they both had extremely good coaches who put them in situations where they could be successful.

Assassin27
01-07-2016, 05:51 PM
I don't believe I've ever heard Montana called overrated, but I'll say this, even with Rice Cincinnati gave them all they could handle in the 88/89 Super Bowl. Montana led that drive and hit John Taylor for the go ahead. IMO Joe"COOL"Montana is the GOAT and it not even close.

Fantaztic7
01-07-2016, 05:52 PM
Russell Wilson could emerge as one of the great QBs. The Seahawks have had great supporting cast especially defense however, he is special. Elite in terms of illusive movement to make plays. Now he's learning to play from the pocket. One play away from back to back championships - one decision by the coach. Leader on and off the field. Uses all of his gifted abiltiy to full potential and plays smart - knows how to protect himself to stay in the game. One of the most underrated QBs I his draft.

Not sure how he'll do over the next 5+ years - he's already accomplished a lot.

Butler By'Note
01-07-2016, 05:54 PM
Montana overrated....HMMMMM!!! 13 tds 0ints in 4 SBs 4-0 in SB far from overrated. The guy invented the word CLUTCH!!!!!! He won his first 2 SBs with nobody....yes he had Rice for the next 2 but it was like playing Madden with Rice!!!!


I don't believe I've ever heard Montana called overrated, but I'll say this, even with Rice Cincinnati gave them all they could handle in the 88/89 Super Bowl. Montana led that drive and hit John Taylor for the go ahead.

Perhaps overrated was the wrong term, he's still among the best, I just don't think he's the clear cut number 1 QB of all-time like some people do, so in that regard I called him overrated. Frankly I'm not sure there is 1 best QB of all-time, more a group of 5 to 10 who are all in the conversation. Montana would be in that group. Brady is an overrated game manager.

Butler By'Note
01-07-2016, 05:56 PM
IMO Joe"COOL"Montana is the GOAT and it not even close.


See, that's what I disagree with, that's how I would describe him as overrated. He's in the conversation, but it is close. Again switch him and Elway, the 49ers still win their Super Bowls, Montana never drags those Denver teams to the Super Bowls.

Assassin27
01-07-2016, 06:01 PM
Alright, let mask you this: Switch Montana and Elway, do the 49ers win Super Bowls? Do the Broncos go to Super Bowls? To me that answers which is better there.

Do you consider them the best because of their individual talents and accomplishments or because their teams have won Super Bowls?

Montana and Brady are both good to great QBs, no doubt, but, in my opinion, both benefited greatly from the cast around them and that they both had extremely good coaches who put them in situations where they could be successful. When the game was on the line Joe put it in the endzone. His first 2 SB he had nobody...ok ill give you Dwight Clark. Name the other offensive weapons he had? Freddie Solomon....Freddie WHO!!!!

Senses Fail
01-07-2016, 06:03 PM
Both are extremely overrated IMO. Montana was great in part because of the supporting cast (he would have been very good on his own, but not considered an all time great) and the coaching. Brady is so overrated, his first few years he was a game manager and handed off the ball and was asked not to make mistakes, he did it well, but he was hardly the QB that revisionist history has made him. When they switched the offense around him they quit winning Super Bowls. Nw they've gone back to an offense where he's a game manager* and they're back to winning.

*Patriots fans will talk about him "picking the Seahawks apart" last year in the SB with 37 completions, HOWEVER, 32 of 37 completions were thrown 5 yards or less from the line of scrimmage, he threw short passes and the WRs got YAC, that turned to first downs. He isn't very good throwing it down field and is essentially a glorified Alex Smith.

So who would you consider as GOAT or Top 2-3 guys when talking QBs?

I have it Montana & Brady tied for number 1. If Brady won in 07 and 11 I would've put Brady as a clear #1.

I might catch some for this, but last years Super Bowl solidified Brady > Manning. That's just my opinion tho.

listopencil
01-07-2016, 06:04 PM
See, that's what I disagree with, that's how I would describe him as overrated. He's in the conversation, but it is close. Again switch him and Elway, the 49ers still win their Super Bowls, Montana never drags those Denver teams to the Super Bowls.

Montana's accuracy, ability to read Defenses, and understanding of his own Offense coupled with his high level of performance in the most important games of his career make him one of the best QB's to ever play since the inception of the forward pass. He's in the discussion of greatest QB's ever to play the game.

45guy
01-07-2016, 06:06 PM
What about them specifically, SB wins, Playoff performance?

Sorry I wrote this before I saw the above post. Please I am asking for specifics like "Listopencil"

listopencil
01-07-2016, 06:06 PM
So who would you consider as GOAT or Top 2-3 guys when talking QBs?

I have it Montana & Brady tied for number 1. If Brady won in 07 and 11 I would've put Brady as a clear #1.

I might catch some for this, but last years Super Bowl solidified Brady > Manning. That's just my opinion tho.

I'm always going to go with Elway as the greatest because the only way to beat him was to use the best team in the league in any year and make him play on a team that didn't even really belong on the field.

listopencil
01-07-2016, 06:09 PM
Downgrading Elway for his Super Bowl losses would be like making him run the Grand Prix in a dune buggy and mocking him because he only came in second place.

Butler By'Note
01-07-2016, 06:09 PM
So who would you consider as GOAT or Top 2-3 guys when talking QBs?

I have it Montana & Brady tied for number 1. If Brady won in 07 and 11 I would've put Brady as a clear #1.

I might catch some for this, but last years Super Bowl solidified Brady > Manning. That's just my opinion tho.

Brady won his first and fourth super bowls as a game manager, the other two he was a little above a game manager.

My top QBs (that I've seen play), in no particular order: Steve Young, Joe Montana (he's overrated as a clear cut number 1, but he's correctly rated in a group of the best), John Elway, Peyton Manning, Dan Marino. Of the young guys, I'm most intrigued by Cam Newton, because of his size and all the things he can do, once he quits throwing off his back foot so much, it will make him better. I was very down on Russell Wilson before, but he's shown me something this year, he's actually become, or started to become, what Seahacks fans claimed he was 2 years ago, but he wasn't at that point.

45guy
01-07-2016, 06:10 PM
So who would you consider as GOAT or Top 2-3 guys when talking QBs?

I have it Montana & Brady tied for number 1. If Brady won in 07 and 11 I would've put Brady as a clear #1.

I might catch some for this, but last years Super Bowl solidified Brady > Manning. That's just my opinion tho.

So is your standard SB wins?

Assassin27
01-07-2016, 06:10 PM
What about them specifically, SB wins, Playoff performance? Montana 13 tds o ints in 4 SBs 4-0 in SBs.

Butler By'Note
01-07-2016, 06:11 PM
Montana's accuracy, ability to read Defenses, and understanding of his own Offense coupled with his high level of performance in the most important games of his career make him one of the best QB's to ever play since the inception of the forward pass. He's in the discussion of greatest QB's ever to play the game.


Absolutely agree with this. What I disagree with is when people say that he's the greatest of all-time and there's no one close. He's in the group for sure though.

Assassin27
01-07-2016, 06:12 PM
If Randy Moss had Joe he would have a RING

Butler By'Note
01-07-2016, 06:13 PM
Montana 13 tds o ints in 4 SBs 4-0 in SBs.


Would you consider Terry Bradshaw amongst your all-time great QBs? He was 4-0 in the Super Bowl, had a 9-4 ratio and he called his own plays.

But no sane person would consider Terry Bradshaw amongst the all-time great QBs, that's why using SB records as a measuring stick doesn't work.

Assassin27
01-07-2016, 06:16 PM
[QUOTE=Butler By'Note;5338412]Absolutely agree with this. What I disagree with is when people say that he's the greatest of all To me what separates Joe is the CLUTCH factor. On the BIGGEST stage in the BIGGEST games he never blinked!

Senses Fail
01-07-2016, 06:21 PM
So is your standard SB wins?

Not exactly my only standard. Finishing is a big consideration of mine though. The / just meant I was undecided and had them about even.

1/2 Joe Montana/Brady
3 Elway
4/5 Marino/Manning

Don't actually think of this list much.

L.M.
01-07-2016, 06:23 PM
:laugh:

The poor OP was completely forgotten and this has turned into a who's the best QB in history debate!

Rancid
01-07-2016, 06:23 PM
To me, a great Quarterback is a guy that carries the team or takes the game over single-handedly; they want to win at any cost. They will run, pass, crawl, put their heads down and hit-- whatever it takes.

They may not have the best numbers, but they are fearless competitors.

In my mind these are good examples:

Fran Tarkenton
Ken Stabler
Steve Grogan
Bret Favre
John Elway
Cam Newton

ELWAY421
01-07-2016, 06:24 PM
Downgrading Elway for his Super Bowl losses would be like making him run the Grand Prix in a dune buggy and mocking him because he only came in second place.

Elway is right there due to what he was working with in the early days. Imo my opinion it's hard not to have Montana and Brady right there with him. The discussion is always up for debate, but to say Montana and Brady are overrated is a bit far fetched. You can't discount things because you dislike them! Brady wasn't working with much offensively in his early days either.

Senses Fail
01-07-2016, 06:29 PM
What in your opinion determines a great QB? Is it wins and loses? Playoff performance? Super bowl wins? Quarterback rating? Heart? Also what in your opinion gives a guy the reputation of not getting it done in the post season? Again wins or loses, Int's. to touchdowns? I am really interested in knowing what you all think.

It's literally a combination of all those.

I'd say showing up in big games. Win - loss (some guys just find a way to win regardless of their performance/finishing). Clutchness. 3 Biggest things I look for in QBs.


:laugh:

The poor OP was completely forgotten and this has turned into a who's the best QB in history debate!

I feel bad, but I was replying to someone else in the thread. :P

Butler By'Note
01-07-2016, 06:35 PM
:laugh:

The poor OP was completely forgotten and this has turned into a who's the best QB in history debate!

Yeah, that's on me. I went off on a tangent. My bad.

ELWAY421
01-07-2016, 06:37 PM
To me, a great Quarterback is a guy that carries the team or takes the game over single-handedly; they want to win at any cost. They will run, pass, crawl, put their heads down and hit-- whatever it takes.

They may not have the best numbers, but they are fearless competitors.

In my mind these are good examples:

Fran Tarkenton
Ken Stabler
Steve Grogan
Bret Favre
John Elway
Cam Newton

Fran had all of the records at one time.

False Start
01-07-2016, 06:37 PM
Consistency at a high level over an extended period of time and deep into the playoffs in all weather. Brett, Tom, John, Joe are a few.

ELWAY421
01-07-2016, 06:38 PM
Yeah, that's on me. I went off on a tangent. My bad.

In all honesty it's a good debate. It had me thinking and wanting to post. Someone should make a thread about it. Like everyones top 10 of all time.

Butler By'Note
01-07-2016, 06:42 PM
In all honesty it's a good debate. It had me thinking and wanting to post. Someone should make a thread about it. Like everyones top 10 of all time.

That happened in the summer when the Pats fan who was pretending to be a Broncos fan (and doing a horrible job at it) made a list of his all-time best QBs and said Manning couldn't be on it because he only won 1 Super Bowl, meanwhile he had Favre a 2, Fran Tarkenton on the list along with Dan Marino and I believe Jim Kelly. Needless to say he just wanted to rip on Elway.

ELWAY421
01-07-2016, 06:47 PM
That happened in the summer when the Pats fan who was pretending to be a Broncos fan (and doing a horrible job at it) made a list of his all-time best QBs and said Manning couldn't be on it because he only won 1 Super Bowl, meanwhile he had Favre a 2, Fran Tarkenton on the list along with Dan Marino and I believe Jim Kelly. Needless to say he just wanted to rip on Elway.


Elway is the reason I'm a fan of this team mostly. I grew up ip in Browns household and I wasn't liked in the 80's lol. I've seen a lot of the great ones, Manning's definitely in that group. They all have different qualities, but it's a good debate. It's hard for me to not say Elway is #1, but It's hard to go against Joe, and Brady with all of the rings, and numbers.

BroncosDivision
01-07-2016, 06:47 PM
That you don't consistently falter when everything is on the line.

Call it heart, call it playing clutch but that is and always will be a first for me. A mediocre arm or not being super athletically gifted, that I can work with but the lack of a strong mindset? No.

You got to be willing to put in the work and you need to absolutely believe in yourself when you're a leader out there.

45guy
01-07-2016, 06:49 PM
Here is the reason I ask this question. I keep hearing that Manning does not perform well in the post season I decided to compare for myself. I have attached the playoff only stats of most of the QB's that have been mentioned. let me know if these stats change your mind or if anything surprised you.

Comp% Q rating yards tds int int%
PManning 64 88.5 6800 38 24 2.6
Farve 61 86.3 5855 44 30 3.8

Assassin27
01-07-2016, 06:53 PM
Here is the reason I ask this question. I keep hearing that Manning does not perform well in the post season I decided to compare for myself. I have attached the playoff only stats of most of the QB's that have been mentioned. let me know if these stats change your mind or if anything surprised you.

Cmp% Q,Rating yards td int int %
Peyton Manning 64 88.5 6800 38 2.6 24
Brett Farve 60.8 86.3 5855 44 30 3.8
Tom Brady 62.9 89 7345 53 26 2.4
Joe Montona 62.7 95.6 5772 45 21 2.9
Terry Bradshaw 57.2 83 3833 30 26 5.7
Troy Akmin 63.7 88.3 3849 23 17 3.4
Big Ben 61.5 83.3 3484 21 19 4.2
Roger Staubach 54.4 76 2791 24 19 6.8
Steve Young 62 85.8 3326 20 13 2.8
Dan Marino 56 77.1 4510 32 24 3.5
John Elway 54.5 79.7 4964 27 21 3.2

Still JOE 'COOL"

Butler By'Note
01-07-2016, 06:54 PM
Elway is the reason I'm a fan of this team mostly. I grew up ip in Browns household and I wasn't liked in the 80's lol. I've seen a lot of the great ones, Manning's definitely in that group. They all have different qualities, but it's a good debate. It's hard for me to not say Elway is #1, but It's hard to go against Joe, and Brady with all of the rings, and numbers.

Me too! My dad was a Browns fan, we sat down to watch my first ever game and we decided that I would cheer for the opposition and we'd "bet" on the game, that game was the Drive, and I've been a Denver Broncos fan since that day.

I'm not a Brady guy, I never have been, ever since his first start I've disliked him. I probably downgrade him more than I should because of this bias, but I do think that the media credits him more than they should.

ELWAY421
01-07-2016, 06:56 PM
Here is the reason I ask this question. I keep hearing that Manning does not perform well in the post season I decided to compare for myself. I have attached the playoff only stats of most of the QB's that have been mentioned. let me know if these stats change your mind or if anything surprised you.

Cmp% Q,Rating yards td int int %
Peyton Manning 64 88.5 6800 38 2.6 24
Brett Farve 60.8 86.3 5855 44 30 3.8
Tom Brady 62.9 89 7345 53 26 2.4
Joe Montona 62.7 95.6 5772 45 21 2.9
Terry Bradshaw 57.2 83 3833 30 26 5.7
Troy Akmin 63.7 88.3 3849 23 17 3.4
Big Ben 61.5 83.3 3484 21 19 4.2
Roger Staubach 54.4 76 2791 24 19 6.8
Steve Young 62 85.8 3326 20 13 2.8
Dan Marino 56 77.1 4510 32 24 3.5
John Elway 54.5 79.7 4964 27 21 3.2

That's why is said all of the above of things you mentioned. Manning has all of the records which Farve had before him, and Marino before him. Was Farve considered the greatest of all time at the time? I'd say no. There are many variables. But, I don't think you can automatically put Manning at the all time greatest because he owns all of the records. It's the whole package imo.

ELWAY421
01-07-2016, 06:58 PM
Me too! My dad was a Browns fan, we sat down to watch my first ever game and we decided that I would cheer for the opposition and we'd "bet" on the game, that game was the Drive, and I've been a Denver Broncos fan since that day.

I'm not a Brady guy, I never have been, ever since his first start I've disliked him. I probably downgrade him more than I should because of this bias, but I do think that the media credits him more than they should.

That's ironic, that's right around the time I started liking the Broncos, around 86. Haha, the drive, the fumble, and I call the 89 AFC championship the beatdown lol.

ELWAY421
01-07-2016, 07:01 PM
Still JOE 'COOL"

When Joe started that drive against Cincinnati in the 88/89 Super Bowl they were down and deep in his their own territory and he looks at the guys in the huddle and says 'Hey is that John Candy'? Lol, = Joe Cool. He knew they were gonna win that game.

duhyaj
01-07-2016, 07:05 PM
I'll just give you a few names.

Joe Montana
Tom Brady

^^^ That would be your standard.

So being surrounded by tons of talent and great innovative coaching? cause thats the common denominator with both of those two. Joe had literally HoFers at almost every position around him. and Tom has been surrounded his whole career with elite talent. look what happens to him with no gronk, or when Welker was there no wes...

duhyaj
01-07-2016, 07:08 PM
Montana overrated....HMMMMM!!! 13 tds 0ints in 4 SBs 4-0 in SB far from overrated. The guy invented the word CLUTCH!!!!!! He won his first 2 SBs with nobody....yes he had Rice for the next 2 but it was like playing Madden with Rice!!!!

lol nobody? john taylor dwight clarck brent jones and roger craig were nobodies? not to mention their all hof offensive lines throughout his career. Ronnie lott and those surrounding him on d were nobodies... comn man lol.

duhyaj
01-07-2016, 07:11 PM
Alright, let mask you this: Switch Montana and Elway, do the 49ers win Super Bowls? Do the Broncos go to Super Bowls? To me that answers which is better there.

Do you consider them the best because of their individual talents and accomplishments or because their teams have won Super Bowls?

Montana and Brady are both good to great QBs, no doubt, but, in my opinion, both benefited greatly from the cast around them and that they both had extremely good coaches who put them in situations where they could be successful.

I'm with you on this one.. Marino in SF would have won 8 SB and i firmly believe that! Elway probably wins 6 there. Montana was a glorified game manager that was incredibly smart and surrounded by talent his entire career, even in KC they had some really great offensive weapons.

45guy
01-07-2016, 07:11 PM
It is not about records, it is about performance. Manning has clearly performed in the playoffs. It may have not shown up as a win but there are a lot of things outside of the QB play that determines a win or a loss.
Sorry the cut and pasted did not turn out well.

In the playoffs, out of the QB's listed Manning is #1 in completion %. in the QB rating he is in third behind Montana and .5 behind Brady, would anybody have guessed that? In yards he is #1. in TD's he is 4th, Int's he is tied for 4th in Int% he is 2nd .2% behind Brady.

How is this choking or not getting it done?

duhyaj
01-07-2016, 07:17 PM
lol sorry got off topic, my choices for what makes a great qb is the smarts of a Montana or Manning, teh accuracy and release of a Marino, The arm strength of an Elway lol... ok now back to reality lol.

Seriously though I dont think wins is really a telling story as a lot of QBs have been surrounded with crap talent and been held back by that. I think it comes down to guys that can make the throws, make the decisions to get the throws to the right guys,a nd the ability to keep plays alive with great pocket presence, (does not mean majorly mobile like Elway and Wilson) Marino was a statue in the pocket ans could still keep plays alive with hsi in pocket movement and his quick release. same with Joe Montana. Kosar actually was good at that too.

samparnell
01-08-2016, 06:09 AM
What in your opinion determines a great QB? Is it wins and loses? Playoff performance? Super bowl wins? Quarterback rating? Heart? Also what in your opinion gives a guy the reputation of not getting it done in the post season? Again wins or loses, Int's. to touchdowns? I am really interested in knowing what you all think.

Otto Graham played ten years, was in the championship game every year and won seven. His yards per pass attempt is the highest. YPA for QBs is one stat that transcends eras.

Bart Starr won five championships and was 9-1 in the playoffs. He called his own plays. His stats tended to get better during the playoffs.

A conversation about great QBs should include them, Sammy Baugh, Sid Luckman and Johnny Unitas as well as ones mentioned previously in this thread, especially Joe Montana. Stats, championships and offensive system are criteria which should be included.

River Side
01-08-2016, 07:40 AM
Answer to the question probably requires subjective evaluation.

Perhaps a proprietary evaluation system which analyzes QB pass attempts and takes into account receiver drops or spectacular catches. Also separate dump-off masters (Brady, Alex Smith ) vs low percentage deep throwers (Palmer, Dalton, Eli, Brees, Wilson etc).

Current available stats such as QBR etc often get close. Anybody's guess where our future QB ranks?

FR Tim
01-08-2016, 07:57 AM
Answer to the question probably requires subjective evaluation.

Perhaps a proprietary evaluation system which analyzes QB pass attempts and takes into account receiver drops or spectacular catches. Also separate dump-off masters (Brady, Alex Smith ) vs low percentage deep throwers (Palmer, Dalton, Eli, Brees, Wilson etc).

Current available stats such as QBR etc often get close. Anybody's guess where our future QB ranks?

QBR has its own bias too. Any rating system will usually put emphasis on certain aspects to achieve the results the designer is looking for. Same with statistics and polls.

But here is the end of season QBR if you are interested, not certain if you were asking a rhetorical question or not.
QBR
- 1st Palmer- 82.1
- 33rd Foles- 30.0
- 16th Mariota - 61.0
- 24th Osweiler - 48.8
- 28th Manning 45.0

http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr

River Side
01-08-2016, 08:37 AM
QBR has its own bias too. Any rating system will usually put emphasis on certain aspects to achieve the results the designer is looking for. Same with statistics and polls.

But here is the end of season QBR if you are interested, not certain if you were asking a rhetorical question or not.
QBR
- 1st Palmer- 82.1
- 33rd Foles- 30.0
- 16th Mariota - 61.0
- 24th Osweiler - 48.8
- 28th Manning 45.0

http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr

Thanks for posting. The question was rhetorical. I haven't checked but the rookies Mariotta and Winston probably had better QBR's than our legendary QB and four year "rookie".

Yet no one on this board would want either of them (Mariotta, Winston) to replace our QBs going into the playoffs. Well except maybe those in the anyone-but-Manning club.

Hence the difficulty in coming up with a gauge for quality of QB.. So much of it is surrounding cast, circumstances, coaches, match ups, schedule, personal ups and downs, injuries etc.

ADAWG09
01-08-2016, 10:40 AM
I am with the others who consider Brady to be over rated. He is the king of the dink and dump nothing more than that. The season where Cassel went 11-5 proved that to me. He is a product of a fantastic system.

Doran Peck
01-09-2016, 10:26 PM
The original question was What determines a great QB....I'd say a combination of statistics, NFL or Team records set....if you'd never even seen the guy play, you could probably determine pretty accurately if he was a great QB or not. Great QB's make great statistics and set records. Mediocre and bad QB's do not.

Things like superbowl rings are irrelevant...this is a team game...teams win rings and teams lose rings.

If your going to talk about the greatest QB of all time...thats a different question



and John Elway is the answer.

gerontion
01-10-2016, 12:28 AM
Here's a case for John Elway as the GOAT.

First, he remains the prototype for a qb. He had size, mobility, durability, and the most powerful arm in NFL history.

Second, he was known as a clutch, tough gamer. Think of all those 4th quarter comebacks and The Drive. He also carried 3 mediocre teams to the SB. He had average head coaching for the first 10 years of his career. Imagine what Walsh or Shula could have done with him.

Third, he had great stats. When he retired, he was #1 in wins, #2 in yards, and #3 in td passes. He did that before the NFL became all pass happy.

Fourth, he's got a little bit of hardware. Multiple pro-bowls, 2 rings, 1 regular season MVP and 1 playoff MVP.

How's that for a resume?

jimelway
01-10-2016, 07:05 AM
Butler by note I love you.
I realize now I have a long lost twin. Love everything you wrote and it's ALL TRUE! Few things that you left out, unless I missed em. Patriots stopped winning after they were caught cheating, except for last year. Does that really count? Really a pass when you have BEAST MODE, I'm still not over that. Also 2 words, Matt Cassel. Pats 11-5 that year and how many teams has he played on since. Pats are a system, very similar to the 9ers. And yes Montana and Brady are most certainly over rated. Trent freakin Dilfer won a SB, that make him a better QB than Marino, Kelly? Elway carried 3 average teams to the SB because he had crazy talent. When Andrew Luck was coming out of college he wasn't compared to Montana or Brady. Someday hopefully technology can simulate either of those 2 playing on those Bronco teams. I love Elway being known as a mobile QB, tough to get down. Oh yeah guess who's the most sacked QB ever in NFL history! Now I'm getting angry.
Happy Sunday go Broncos, can't wait for the steelers. Thank you John Elway for being the GOAT!!!!!!!

Assassin27
01-10-2016, 07:30 AM
lol nobody? john taylor dwight clarck brent jones and roger craig were nobodies? not to mention their all hof offensive lines throughout his career. Ronnie lott and those surrounding him on d were nobodies... comn man lol. Read the post" first 2 SBs" Joe didn't have Craig, Taylor or Jones in the first SB and he did not have Jones or Taylor in the Second one.