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PRBronco
02-12-2005, 11:47 PM
Ok, it's no secret that I think about DTs alot, with a few good men up front, our defense would be unstoppable. This brings me to this year's offseason, where the top DT in the draft is considered travis johnson (6'5", 295) or maybe shaun cody (6'4", 295), i know cody is the popular choice for us to draft right now. (antaaj hawthorne will be discussed later) It's been bugging me though, that these guys are less than 300 lbs, it got me wondering how they might turn out, what i mean is, are they worth a first round pick?

I looked over the entire list of defensive tackles on nfl.com, and could only come up with 5 DTs that are considered "impact" players, that are less than ~315 lbs. I included warren sapp because the league is obsessed with him, i personally consider him a waste of space:
Kevin Williams
Laroi Glover
Sapp
Kevin Carter (i don't think he's much of a player either, actually)
and Tommie Harris

Now, let's look at the best DTs in the league:
sam adams 335
pat williams 317
shaun rogers 345
kris jenkins 335
jamal williams 348
marcus stroud 315
john henderson 328

Now look at our team, our biggest DT is luther elliss at 315, and after that everyone is 300 lbs. I don't think this is a coincidence. If you want a dominant line, you have to have those big strong guys up there, this "one gap" lineman that everyone says travis johnson is, and what trevor pryce plays when he goes in the middle just doesn't cut it. Don't get me wrong, pryce is awesome, and draws a double team on reputation alone, so he makes an impact that way, but on the whole, i just don't see guys like johnson or cody turning into dominant tackles. I like cody too, the guy is a winner, and is clearly a phenominal athlete, but i don't see him becoming a dominant DT in a 4-3 alignment.

So basically what i'm saying is, these guys aren't worth our first round pick. Antaaj hawthorne might be, but our scouts would have to be sure that he would come to play, his motor seems to be a question mark. The thing with him is, his numbers are usually listed as 6'3" 305, but he weighed in at the senior bowl at 6' 2 1/2" 317. That's a little closer to what we're lookin for. Plus, they say he needs to add leg strenth, so once he starts hitting the squat rack he'll slam some more weight on. Also, i'd like to see us scoop sione pouaha with a middle rounder, he's a beast 6'3", 330, and super strong.

So there's my theory on why our DTs are weak, and how your best bet is to not even bother with a tackle under 315 pounds.

ttejuco
02-13-2005, 01:35 AM
It's true though, how alot of teams wont even consider a DT if he isnt at least 300 pounds, that's why many players who are considered "DT's" in this draft have to gain a bit of weight because many of them are listed under.

Travis Johnson 290
Shaun Cody 295
Anttaj Hawthorne 305
Mike Patterson 290

Those are possibly the top 4 Dt's in the draft. Now im supposing they all have to gain a bit more weight to be a force inside, but for now, they seem to be those DT/DE tweeners in a 3-4 defence. Opinions?

PRBronco
02-13-2005, 01:52 AM
Well, i think mike patterson can legitimately be considered a DT for a 4-3, because he has that 290 pounds packed onto a 5'11" frame, which makes him pretty dang solid.

NeedDLinemen
02-13-2005, 05:22 AM
Well, i think mike patterson can legitimately be considered a DT for a 4-3, because he has that 290 pounds packed onto a 5'11" frame, which makes him pretty dang solid.

Will he swat down many passes over the middle though??

PRBronco
02-13-2005, 11:11 AM
Is that honestly your biggest concern? Come on man, pull your head out of your ass, would you rather have useless linemen like ours sitting back jumping up and down like idiots cuz they can't get through, our would you rather have a little bowling ball collapsing the pocket? Did peyton ever seem remotely fazed by the fact that our linemen had their hands in the air? He'll thread the needle all day long if that's all they're gonna do.

bleedbluorange
02-13-2005, 06:25 PM
Ok, it's no secret that I think about DTs alot, with a few good men up front, our defense would be unstoppable. This brings me to this year's offseason, where the top DT in the draft is considered travis johnson (6'5", 295) or maybe shaun cody (6'4", 295), i know cody is the popular choice for us to draft right now. (antaaj hawthorne will be discussed later) It's been bugging me though, that these guys are less than 300 lbs, it got me wondering how they might turn out, what i mean is, are they worth a first round pick?

I looked over the entire list of defensive tackles on nfl.com, and could only come up with 5 DTs that are considered "impact" players, that are less than ~315 lbs. I included warren sapp because the league is obsessed with him, i personally consider him a waste of space:
Kevin Williams
Laroi Glover
Sapp
Kevin Carter (i don't think he's much of a player either, actually)
and Tommie Harris

Now, let's look at the best DTs in the league:
sam adams 335
pat williams 317
shaun rogers 345
kris jenkins 335
jamal williams 348
marcus stroud 315
john henderson 328

Now look at our team, our biggest DT is luther elliss at 315, and after that everyone is 300 lbs. I don't think this is a coincidence. If you want a dominant line, you have to have those big strong guys up there, this "one gap" lineman that everyone says travis johnson is, and what trevor pryce plays when he goes in the middle just doesn't cut it. Don't get me wrong, pryce is awesome, and draws a double team on reputation alone, so he makes an impact that way, but on the whole, i just don't see guys like johnson or cody turning into dominant tackles. I like cody too, the guy is a winner, and is clearly a phenominal athlete, but i don't see him becoming a dominant DT in a 4-3 alignment.

So basically what i'm saying is, these guys aren't worth our first round pick. Antaaj hawthorne might be, but our scouts would have to be sure that he would come to play, his motor seems to be a question mark. The thing with him is, his numbers are usually listed as 6'3" 305, but he weighed in at the senior bowl at 6' 2 1/2" 317. That's a little closer to what we're lookin for. Plus, they say he needs to add leg strenth, so once he starts hitting the squat rack he'll slam some more weight on. Also, i'd like to see us scoop sione pouaha with a middle rounder, he's a beast 6'3", 330, and super strong.

So there's my theory on why our DTs are weak, and how your best bet is to not even bother with a tackle under 315 pounds.Good post. I think you have to consider how big those dominant tackles were when they were drafted.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
02-13-2005, 06:28 PM
You have to look at body frames. A DT in the 4-3 is asked to be quick, a 3-4 NT will bulk up to clog lanes and blockers.

Jamal Williams was a tad over 310 as a DT. When asked to become a NT he gained 30ish lbs up to 340. Fetafehi, Davis, and Pope all have massive frames and could easily balloon up to 330+ range if ASKED.

JoRo
02-13-2005, 06:31 PM
How can you tlel hwo theyre frame is? jc.......i dont understand that.

ttejuco
02-13-2005, 07:01 PM
Well you know weight dosent exactly mean how big your "frame" is. Ever heard of being pound for pound? A DT could be 300+ pounds but mostly stout and full of muscle rather than fat. I rather have those kind of DT's than a fat tub of human flesh who is probably out of shape. Ever heard of Igor Olshansky? The guy who bench pressed i think 245 pounds 42 times??? He played DT for San Diego and he isnt a fat guy, hes just really well built. So really, you dont need a fat guy to take up space, you just need a strong guy who can hold his own against a double team.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
02-13-2005, 07:22 PM
Well you know weight dosent exactly mean how big your "frame" is. Ever heard of being pound for pound? A DT could be 300+ pounds but mostly stout and full of muscle rather than fat. I rather have those kind of DT's than a fat tub of human flesh who is probably out of shape. Ever heard of Igor Olshansky? The guy who bench pressed i think 245 pounds 42 times??? He played DT for San Diego and he isnt a fat guy, hes just really well built. So really, you dont need a fat guy to take up space, you just need a strong guy who can hold his own against a double team.


Exactly. Though to be fair, muscle does weigh more than fat. That's why you look at the body frames.


Body frame is someone's height and body mass type (fat, muscular). A 6'5" chubby dude who weighs 300, could bust ass in the weight room and put on 30-40 lbs of muscle mass over the course of a year.

ttejuco
02-13-2005, 07:36 PM
Like when you see wrestlers like in the WWE, like Bill Batista, or Brock Lesnar (who tried out for the NFL as a DT), they are around 6'5 -6'7, and weigh 300+ pounds, but are ALL MUSCLE. Like wow, imagine those guys holding down the line.

dbdom
02-14-2005, 01:29 PM
Like when you see wrestlers like in the WWE, like Bill Batista, or Brock Lesnar (who tried out for the NFL as a DT), they are around 6'5 -6'7, and weigh 300+ pounds, but are ALL MUSCLE. Like wow, imagine those guys holding down the line.

one word for those guys, steroids? ...

as for DT's, too much emphasis is put on weight, so many times we've seen DT's taken in the 1st round who were like 330 then become busts, the reasons the guys are closer to 300 now is probably because they have very little fat in their body buildup, which is a better thing, fat doesnt mean effective, it seems like generally we are seeing more DE/DT types who are way more athletic than your conventional "fat guy taking up the space in the middle" type players, and these more athletic guys usually get better burst off the line, collapse the pocket, can get better inside pressure, if you get penetration into the pocket, you are more likely to break up running plays in the backfield as well, which is another plus