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View Full Version : Give Shanny a break



Javalon
11-04-2003, 12:09 AM
I understand the frustration from losing this game but Mike's decisions weren't all bad.

I wish he'd run on that 4th and 3 when they ended up punting for a touchback. But that one didn't really hurt. It just would have been nice to try extending the drive.

Everybody keeps ragging on Shanny for not running the ball on 3rd down when trying to kill the clock at the end of the game.

But consider the situation: 2 running plays gives the Broncos a 3rd and 6 at their own 19 with 2:31 on the clock. The Pats still have a timeout left so running won't kill the clock here. If the Broncos get a first down, the Broncos probably run out the clock or close to it. Running in this situation not likely to get a first down. So, he goes for it and passes the ball and it almost works. If it does, everybody says "what an agressive call." Because it doesn't work everybody says "what a stupid call!"

Really, Shanny's biggest mistake was letting Deltha O'neal play on defense again. His only contribution should be on punt returns now.

SoCalBroncosFan
11-04-2003, 12:11 AM
Javalon,

He should have run the ball the series before. Not necessarily there. Game should have already been over by that point

SoCalBroncosFan
11-04-2003, 12:12 AM
Not to mention, he is paid $4 million a year. How much of a break does the guy deserve on something that any of a number of fans watching the game saw as horribly obvious.

Return of Lava
11-04-2003, 12:14 AM
you only see it as horribly obvious because it didnt work. those plays worked for him last year i bet you said nothin about it.

SoCalBroncosFan
11-04-2003, 12:15 AM
Wrong! Even when they work, they are poor decisions.

There is a difference between being aggressive and being stupid. Tonight, it was stupidity.

Javalon
11-04-2003, 12:17 AM
Originally posted by SoCalBroncosFan
Javalon,

He should have run the ball the series before. Not necessarily there. Game should have already been over by that point

Ok. I understand what you're saying. But there were over 6 minutes left on the clock to start that drive. Running every down sounds good in theory but the defense is not likely to let us run 20 times in a row to kill the clock. Shanny has always liked to pass when the defense is playing the run. And vice versa.

Still, the odds of killing the final 6 minutes was unlikely. I think he was trying to score. I personally can't blame him for wanting to put more points on the board.

SoCalBroncosFan
11-04-2003, 12:19 AM
Javalon,

It wasn't about killing the clock. You are missing the point. It was about getting a first down.

With 3rd and 3 and Alex Gibbs as your line coach, you put it on your linemen's shoulders and say, Fellas, we need 3 yards the next two plays.

Woody
11-04-2003, 12:19 AM
Ok football genius SoCal, I know you know more about football and playcalling than Shanahan, even though every football analyst Ive seen puts him in the top 3 playcallers/gameplanners, but give the guy a break. We were punting the ball from the Pats 30 - 35 yard line instead of kicking field goals, then Deltha lets the punt after the safety go over his head and we get the ball on the 13. Thats not a playcalling mistake, thats a player (O'neil) making a stupid mistake, and a kicker being hurt.

SoCalBroncosFan
11-04-2003, 12:21 AM
Woody,

Look. I did not say that there were not bad plays made by the team. No question about it.

But explain to me the logic of punting in that situation when you only net 13 yards vs an opportunity to pick up a first down with two running plays.

SoCalBroncosFan
11-04-2003, 12:22 AM
And by the way, there is a difference between being a good playcaller and being a good situational coach.

Unfortunately, Shanahan was neither tonight.

Mudcat
11-04-2003, 12:23 AM
I agree, play calling was not what lost this game. Mistakes by players ultimatley cost them the game.

JED Bronco
11-04-2003, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by SoCalBroncosFan
Javalon,

It wasn't about killing the clock. You are missing the point. It was about getting a first down.

With 3rd and 3 and Alex Gibbs as your line coach, you put it on your linemen's shoulders and say, Fellas, we need 3 yards the next two plays.

Exactly!!!

And that ladies and gentlemen is the NFL. Let them play!!!!

Woody
11-04-2003, 12:28 AM
You cant criticize the play calling because you werent there. Its easy to say we should have just run the ball, but you dont know what kind of defensive packages they were putting in any more than I do. So if they were putting 5 linemen and 3 linebackers in to stuff the run, we should just say screw it and keep on running? If he would have went for it instead of punting and not gotten the first down, you all would be saying how stupid he is for going for it. But seriously, if we would have had Elam, these things wouldnt even be an issue. Its hard to win a close game when your forced to punt 30 yards from the endzone because you have no kicker.

Javalon
11-04-2003, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by SoCalBroncosFan
Javalon,

It wasn't about killing the clock. You are missing the point. It was about getting a first down.

With 3rd and 3 and Alex Gibbs as your line coach, you put it on your linemen's shoulders and say, Fellas, we need 3 yards the next two plays.

The only 3rd and 3 I can see you might be talking about was with 8 minutes to play. Portis had been banged up a couple plays earlier and Griffin got absolutely hammered by Harrison on his running play two plays earlier. They might have tried Anderson but it's not unusual for teams to pass in that situation. My main gripe on that series was not going for it on 4th down after the incomplete pass. Of course, if Elam's playing we probably get a field goal out of it.

SoCalBroncosFan
11-04-2003, 12:30 AM
Woody,

I can agree that Elam would have changed to complexity of the 4th quarter. No doubt.

However, did you see the Pats defensive packages. They were running a 3-4 almost all night.

Only thing I can conclude is Shanny had more confidence in Kanell passing then in our line getting him 3 yds in 2 plays.

And that is what I don't get.

seahawks_fan
11-04-2003, 12:38 AM
Shanny is a idiot....give the best player in the team the ball... why let a 3rd stringer try to win the game??? Broncos last 3 possessions:

1-10-DEN28
(11:02) D.Kanell pass to A.Lelie to DEN 35 for 7 yards (R.Phifer).
2-3-DEN35
(10:19) C.Portis right tackle to DEN 49 for 14 yards (E.Wilson).
1-10-DEN49
(9:34) C.Portis left guard to NE 40 for 11 yards (R.Harrison).
1-10-NE40
(8:52) Q.Griffin left tackle to NE 37 for 3 yards (R.Harrison).
2-7-NE37
(8:14) D.Kanell pass incomplete to M.Anderson.
3-7-NE37
(8:08) D.Kanell pass incomplete to R.Smith (E.Wilson).
PENALTY on NE-D.Klecko, Neutral Zone Infraction, 4 yards, enforced at NE 37 - No Play.
3-3-NE33
(8:02) (Shotgun) D.Kanell pass incomplete to A.Lelie.
4-3-NE33
(7:57) M.Knorr punts 33 yards to end zone, Center-M.Leach, Touchback.

1-10-DEN34
(6:13) C.Portis left tackle to DEN 40 for 6 yards (T.Bruschi).
2-4-DEN40
(5:37) C.Portis up the middle to DEN 46 for 6 yards (R.Phifer).
1-10-DEN46
(4:58) C.Portis left tackle to DEN 49 for 3 yards (M.Vrabel).
2-7-DEN49
(4:16) D.Kanell pass to C.Portis to NE 41 for 10 yards (W.McGinest). Penalty on NE-W.McGinest, Defensive Holding, declined.
1-10-NE41
(4:08) D.Kanell pass incomplete to S.Sharpe.
2-10-NE41
(4:05) D.Kanell pass to S.Sharpe to NE 35 for 6 yards (E.Wilson).
3-4-NE35
(3:21) D.Kanell pass incomplete to S.Sharpe (R.Harrison).
4-4-NE35
(3:17) M.Knorr punts 34 yards to NE 1, Center-M.Leach, downed by DEN-M.Leach.

-10-DEN15
(2:46) C.Portis right guard to DEN 17 for 2 yards (R.Lyle).
2-8-DEN17
(2:41) PENALTY on DEN-M.Lepsis, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at DEN 17 - No Play.
2-13-DEN12
(2:41) C.Portis up the middle to DEN 19 for 7 yards (M.Vrabel).
3-6-DEN19
(2:31) D.Kanell pass incomplete to A.Lelie (T.Law).
4-6-DEN19
(2:26) M.Knorr punts 48 yards to NE 33, Center-M.Leach. T.Brown to NE 42 for 9 yards (K.Burns).

Mr. CSU
11-04-2003, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by Return of Lava
you only see it as horribly obvious because it didnt work. those plays worked for him last year i bet you said nothin about it.

Actually they lost us a GAme. Watch the Colts game. He threw on 3rd and 5 if they ran the clock runs down to about 40 seconds. Instead they get it and get a FG to tie. Throwing on 3rd and 5 on their own 20 wasn't not a horrible call, but the series before was HORRIBLE.

Woody
11-04-2003, 03:07 AM
If we didnt get a first down, NE had a timeout they never used.

RunByDesign
11-04-2003, 03:20 AM
Originally posted by Javalon
Ok. I understand what you're saying. But there were over 6 minutes left on the clock to start that drive. Running every down sounds good in theory but the defense is not likely to let us run 20 times in a row to kill the clock. Shanny has always liked to pass when the defense is playing the run. And vice versa.

Still, the odds of killing the final 6 minutes was unlikely. I think he was trying to score. I personally can't blame him for wanting to put more points on the board.

I'll take 10 handoffs to Portis over 10 passes by Kanell anyday, despite the rythym Kanell did achieve....running the clock with the lead past halftime is a must.....

PS.....did you see the stat that the Pats ran only 3 down lineman a # of times? It had the highest ratio of defensive playcalling at one point, suggesting that they were mirroring Shanny's playcalling....putting the game in Kanell's hands instead of Portis' at the crucial point of the game...don't get me wrong...you have to throw...Jaworski said before the game in the NFL you cannot hide your QB....I disagree...you can for some games....maybe not in the playoffs...but in some regular seaon games, you can....and if anyone saw the '97 and '98 Broncos win the SB, you know that the running game can and will win championships...

lvbroncofan
11-04-2003, 03:59 AM
2:30 on the clock inside the 30, 3rd and 3. Tell me two plays in the second half combined that portis did not get 3 yards. No Shanny had Kannell throw the ball saving NE a timeout and giving them the ball. Brady showed too many time tonight why that is a bad idea. Lets see kick the ball to Dante, throw the ball on 3rd and 3. He plays prevent to give them the opponents offense the world. Why can't he be a littel faithful in Portis and run him to at LEAST make NE take the time out. Kannell was not connecting, RUN THE BALL! Portis was affective RUN THE BALL! He gave them the game, in gift wrapping.

To those saying if it worked he would have been the hero, ya winners are heros, losers are losers. RUN THE BALL! This wasn't 3rd and 10, it was 3rd and 3 2:30 on the clock. one first down and the game was over.......!!!!!!! He had to kick to Dante, didn't he! (I don't care what happened on the runback, the runback shouldn't have happened)(We were winning both games!)

You know last year when we looked stupid rushing two against oakland, why didn't he change the defense, it didn't work in the first half and it wasn't working in the second half, Gannon set a record number of completions WHY DIDNT HE CHANGE THE DEFENSE.

I like Shannahan, but I'm tired of my team losing. RUN THE BALL!

However innafective they were on offense or defense, we could have run that clock out by getting one more first down, our best chance of that was to run the ball. No i'm not a coach, but im a fan, who is tired of losing games that we shouldn't lose that we could play to win and get the W. This ain't golf and his name ain't TIN CUP. RUN - THE - BALL!

Good game guys, hope all of the injured guys have speedy recoveries. (Rod, your the man)

Always a Bronco Fan (even though I did root for the Raiders to beat KC - so close)

Woody
11-04-2003, 04:49 AM
Originally posted by lvbroncofan
2:30 on the clock inside the 30, 3rd and 3. Tell me two plays in the second half combined that portis did not get 3 yards. No Shanny had Kannell throw the ball saving NE a timeout and giving them the ball. Brady showed too many time tonight why that is a bad idea. Lets see kick the ball to Dante, throw the ball on 3rd and 3. He plays prevent to give them the opponents offense the world. Why can't he be a littel faithful in Portis and run him to at LEAST make NE take the time out. Kannell was not connecting, RUN THE BALL! Portis was affective RUN THE BALL! He gave them the game, in gift wrapping.

To those saying if it worked he would have been the hero, ya winners are heros, losers are losers. RUN THE BALL! This wasn't 3rd and 10, it was 3rd and 3 2:30 on the clock. one first down and the game was over.......!!!!!!! He had to kick to Dante, didn't he! (I don't care what happened on the runback, the runback shouldn't have happened)(We were winning both games!)

You know last year when we looked stupid rushing two against oakland, why didn't he change the defense, it didn't work in the first half and it wasn't working in the second half, Gannon set a record number of completions WHY DIDNT HE CHANGE THE DEFENSE.

I like Shannahan, but I'm tired of my team losing. RUN THE BALL!

However innafective they were on offense or defense, we could have run that clock out by getting one more first down, our best chance of that was to run the ball. No i'm not a coach, but im a fan, who is tired of losing games that we shouldn't lose that we could play to win and get the W. This ain't golf and his name ain't TIN CUP. RUN - THE - BALL!

Good game guys, hope all of the injured guys have speedy recoveries. (Rod, your the man)

Always a Bronco Fan (even though I did root for the Raiders to beat KC - so close)

k, well lets be honest here, NE had the ball with almost 3 minutes on the clock. Brady threw for 300 yards on us. If we didnt get the first down on a run, which is a gamble considering they were playing the run all game, you want to go for it on 4th down at our own 30 yard line er whatever and run it again when they will definately be run blitzing? If we would have completed that pass, we could have definately run the clock out. If we would have run and not got it, its either go for it on our 30 yard line, where a FG ties the game, or punt to a team who killed us throwing the ball.

Now, lets say we run the ball and 3rd and dont get it, we killed clock time only if they dont call their time out they never used, or we took time away from ourselves answering if they do score. They threw on us all day, we cant run Portis losing with 2 minutes left. Shanahan took a gamble, if the pass was complete we won the game. I admire his aggressiveness going for the win.

damon
11-04-2003, 06:11 AM
There is no excuse for not allowing your team to win the damn game! It all boils down to this--If you have the lead, mid way through the 4th quarter, and you have the ball, you RUN THE DAMN BALL until they stop you!! I learned that by the age of 10. It is obvious to me that Shanahan must have wanted to loose this game, the only real question is why? Don't blame this loss on Deltha, Elam, Kannell-those are all just excuses!! When Shanahan decided to have his 3rd string QB attempt a pass on 3rd and 3 at the 33 with 7 mins left in the 4th quarter, it made everyone scratch their heads. Then, on 4th down, he decided to punt rather than put the ball in the hands of Portis..that even made the Patriots scratch their heads! But then on the next drive to do this all AGAIN at the 38..now that is just plain stupid! Now we all know that Shanahan isn't stupid, so that brings me back to my question--WHY did he want to loose? There is no other answer, period!!!! Our players deserve better, our fans deserve better, football deserves better!!