PDA

View Full Version : The Snake Factor



Javalon
11-20-2003, 09:20 AM
I just thought I'd link today's Denver Post article on Jake Plummer and his effect on the team. It's similar to previous ones but with a few Chicago Bears chiming in:

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~86~1778435,00.html

Yes, he needs to do it over the long haul but it's great to see him off to a great start.

Mount-n-Groan
11-20-2003, 09:34 AM
I'm sold on Jake. The last sentence of that article pretty much sums it up: "He adds another dimension."

That's what's so dangerous about him. He's yet another dimension added to a team that's in no short supply of dimensions. People haven't been able to figure him out.

No matter what people say about Jake I think the majority of the league's players saw him as Jake the Mistake and refused to believe that he is a very good player. Now we're seeing him bring further success through the intangibles. The confusion as to exactly who Jake is works to our advantage. I love it!!!

Javalon
11-20-2003, 09:51 AM
If Plummer is for real, and he stays healthy, it would sure make up for Shanny's mistake on Brian Griese. I think Shanahan really staked his reputation on Plummer being much better than most people believed.

As far as the added dimension goes, you're right. And when the Broncos were playing with their backup QB's, they not only lost Jake's added dimension (mobility) but actually seemed to lose more dimensions (timing with receivers, downfield passing threat, leadership). He never will be John Elway, and nobody will, but that doesn't mean he isn't good enough to win a Super Bowl or two. Time will tell...

orang/blu in LA
11-20-2003, 11:02 AM
Nice article - thanks! I think that in addition to the way he plays, there's an energy that takes over the team with him at the helm. you can tell they really like him - in addition to respecting him - and that's HUGE.

Eldritch
11-20-2003, 12:00 PM
That is a good article, and Iím thrilled that Broncos fans have not only accepted him but cheer him on so.

So much has been said about his scrambling and Ďadding another dimensioní. Certainly he does that. However, I think he has massive innate leadership that canít be learned. After this past game, I saw all sorts of articles and comments about the team getting their swagger back. I think one person can have that affect on a team. Certainly, the caliber of this team deserves swagger in of itself, but I think stats and player/coach comments bear out Jakeís leadership.

He got into his first NFL game because the Cardís starting QB went down in Philadelphia (Buerlein?). He had to take over at his own 4 yard line. From what everyone in the huddle said was that Jake ran onto the field and into the huddle. He basically told them they were going to march down the field, score a TD and take the lead. They did just that.

There has been a lot of discussion about Jake and how he compares to Elway. It seems the consensus is that he will never be another Elway. There can never be another Elway. Iím not steeped enough in the Broncoís history and mystique to even consider the comparison. However, I would like to hope (and believe it will bear out) that when all is said and done, Denver will have TWO QBís they can tout.

Years from now, fans will say ĎSuch and Such are pretty good, but theyíll never be an Elway or a Plummerí. I think this team deserves two legends. I hope for that, believe in that, and have faith in Jake for that.

invisogothworld
11-20-2003, 12:05 PM
Bill Walsh has a eye for talent. The guy could pick a diamond out of a coal mine.

bmanbronco
11-20-2003, 03:59 PM
Just having plummer back has lifted the broncos more than ever but if he gets hands man back (and healthy) that adds a major weapon to the offense. If we can manage a run game in portis which we can the broncos have as good of chance as anyone to go all the way.We have one tough game on the schedual and that will be indy. Green bay is falling apart daunte hall is in check, and the only reason kansas city beat us. So I believe with the offense and defense clicking the way it is we will go all the way or atleast have a fair chance at it.

JED Bronco
11-20-2003, 04:09 PM
I remember watching a Cardinal video on Plummer early this year. Jake was saying all kinds of things to his team mates on the field calling out their numbers and getting them to do what was necessary to win.
I'd like to hear him miked up in the Broncos huddle on any Sunday, just to hear that same leadership over a group of awesome talented players. It might actually be a bit different considering the Cardinals play wasn't the same as the swaggering Broncos!

Mike him up!!:D

bmanbronco
11-20-2003, 04:35 PM
if you're the Bronco's #1 fan, may god have mercy on all Bronco fans. You have three very tough games left. KC has looked much better since the last time these 2 played (besides @ cincy)...and Dante Hall is not necessarily "in check"...people are still afraid to kick him the ball. Even in Cincy the Chiefs got the ball from the 40 because of an out of bounds kickoff. It didn't pay off in that game...but do you really want to give up that kinda field position to the Chiefs offense? Be reasonable. He changes the way all special teams prepare...that is the difference he makes. You also still have Green Bay at Lambeau...and if you think that will be a cakewalk, you haven't watched football for the last 40 years.


I am a broncos fan and your probably right, no game is a given in the Nfl. I have heard through the nfl that kansas city is not near as strong as there record shows and that Green Bay is slowly falling apart. I just believe in our quarter back( not that he is without mistakes) but that he can lead the team the rest of the way. Only one interception last game (not bad)!

Return of Lava
11-20-2003, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by horseface
Don't believe everything you hear...GB has looked good the last few weeks, and it being played at Lambeau, fairs very well for the Packers. As for the Chiefs, they looked bad last week, but they still have the best record in the NFL with one of the most potent offenses out there. They didn't click on Sunday, but they are a very good team. While their defense is the question mark, they have outscored 9 out of 10 teams so far this year...and that's hard to do. It's great that you have confidence in Jake, but I'd be willing to bet that GB fans have faith in Favre as well. And the KC fans know that Trent Green is looking very solid as well, he had another game of over 300 yards on Sunday with over a 100 qb rating. Believing in your QB won't make your remaing "tough" 3 games any easier. it will be a toss up its a 50 50 chance we win. ill take those odds in GB and INDY the other games are about a 75-25 chance (yes, including the chiefs game).

Return of Lava
11-20-2003, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by horseface
I'd bet the vegas linesmakers...the experts...disagree with your evaluation heavily. The Broncos will be picked to lose both at GB and at Indy...they will most likely be a 2 or 2 and a half point favorite over the Chiefs...it being played in Denver. Yeah thats cause the better dont know the scoop they just want to look at our records guy i thought you knew that. We get picked to lose who cares? We got the talent to dominate now! Both offense and defense though and not just offense like this one team i know.

Javalon
11-20-2003, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by horseface
It's great that you have confidence in Jake, but I'd be willing to bet that GB fans have faith in Favre as well. And the KC fans know that Trent Green is looking very solid as well, he had another game of over 300 yards on Sunday with over a 100 qb rating. Believing in your QB won't make your remaing "tough" 3 games any easier.

Originally posted by horseface
I'd bet the vegas linesmakers...the experts...disagree with your evaluation heavily. The Broncos will be picked to lose both at GB and at Indy...they will most likely be a 2 or 2 and a half point favorite over the Chiefs...it being played in Denver.

Heh, I just know you're loving these last few posts, eh Horseface?

We know that, this being the Denver Broncos' website, many users are going to view the NFL with orange-colored glasses. But I can't tell if some of these folks refuse to give the Chiefs any credit because they truly believe what they're saying or just to irritate Chiefs fans. KC is obviously still one of the top teams in the league and the Broncos-Chiefs rematch will be tough for both teams and should be exciting.

"Believing in your QB won't make your remaing "tough" 3 games any easier." I assume by this you're saying that fans believing anything has no effect on the game. Because the Broncos will obviously have a better chance at winning those "tough" games with Plummer than without him.

Return of Lava
11-20-2003, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by horseface
vegas linesmakers look at much more than records when making the initial spreads. I "do know that." These are the guys that know the absolute most about NFL teams, and how they will play in certain situations. They are experts. You and I could look at records and make lines...these guys helped build that little town called Vegas...they didn't do it by simply looking at records...but hey, "I thought you knew that." OK since you wanna battle, what did you say was the spread for the KC game? 2.5? What was the spread for the game back in week 5? 3.5? Whatever it was, we got inside it and really should have won of course (dont care how tired you are of hearing it but its the truth). Betters didnt knwo how much we would dominate the game huh? yeah i knew that though. I also know it wasnt a fluke, i cant tell you how it will go down, but i know we are the better team overall period.

Return of Lava
11-20-2003, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Javalon
Heh, I just know you're loving these last few posts, eh Horseface?

We know that, this being the Denver Broncos' website, many users are going to view the NFL with orange-colored glasses. But I can't tell if some of these folks refuse to give the Chiefs any credit because they truly believe what they're saying or just to irritate Chiefs fans. KC is obviously still one of the top teams in the league and the Broncos-Chiefs rematch will be tough for both teams and should be exciting.

"Believing in your QB won't make your remaing "tough" 3 games any easier." I assume by this you're saying that fans believing anything has no effect on the game. Because the Broncos will obviously have a better chance at winning those "tough" games with Plummer than without him. As far as this goes, I dont look at the whole NFL through orange glasses. There are a few teams that scare me, but the chiefs are definitely not one of them. If the chiefs went up against the titans, colts, panthers, broncos, then wouldnt play well. Chiefs are in the better half, but definitely not as good as their 9-1 record. Just like we were not as bad as our 5-4 record before SD. If you wanna try to be friends with horsey fine, i just wanted to point that out though.

Return of Lava
11-20-2003, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by horseface
I was simply making light of the fact that this newcomer stated that he had confidence in Jake...and Indy was the only tough game left on the schedule. He made it sound as if fan's confidence make the GB and KC games a cakewalk...As for Lava's post(s)...he talks a ton...but rarely makes a valid point. He is convinced that the vegas linesmakers are idiots that only make lines based on records....enough said. LOL thats funny how you twisted that. I didnt call the linesmakers idiots. Learn some reading comprehension. I said i dont give a damn what the linesmakers in vegas say about spreads and that they are not the experts you claim them to be. They might knwo enough about all the teams to make a prediction, but you are wrong when you say they know the absolute most about us.

If you think everything you say is valid, you are sadly mistaken horsey. Speaking of talking a ton, you probably have more posts in the last month than anybody else on the board. You say the same things i say but form another teams view. Dont think you are superior here.

Javalon
11-20-2003, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by Return of Lava
As far as this goes, I dont look at the whole NFL through orange glasses. There are a few teams that scare me, but the chiefs are definitely not one of them. If the chiefs went up against the titans, colts, panthers, broncos, then wouldnt play well. Chiefs are in the better half, but definitely not as good as their 9-1 record. Just like we were not as bad as our 5-4 record before SD. If you wanna try to be friends with horsey fine, i just wanted to point that out though.

Dude, this has nothing to do with trying "to be friends with horsey." The Chiefs are a very good team this season. The Broncos are better than their current record. You don't have to bash to the Chiefs just to build up the Broncos. This is about respecting your worthy opponents.

I really can't believe you aren't "scared" of the Chiefs and Packers games. (Scared in a football sense where you think your team could struggle) Even if the Broncos somehow managed to cakewalk through those games, there is plenty of reason to assume they won't before the games occur.

Return of Lava
11-20-2003, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by horseface
no...you're one of the biggest homers here. You live in an orange colored bubble. If the Chiefs don't scare you...I wonder why most teams in the NFL fear them. I'm sure that playing the Broncos in Denver will be a test for the Chiefs...you have problems if you can't recognize it both ways. The Chiefs are a top tier football team in most everyone's book but yours...including most intelligent Bronco fans here. I, as a Chiefs fan, can recognize that the Broncos are a good team. Let me show you how confused you are. In your last sentence, what does it say? "I, as a chiefs fan, can recognize that the broncos are a good team" OK, if you can find a post ANYWHERE where i say the chiefs are not a good team, ill give you the props. If not, what does it say about you? That you cant see the fact that i give the chiefs credit cause they ARE a good team. I said numerous times that they werent "that good" in reference to their perfect record. Trust me, I see both sides. If the Chiefs come in Denver and play even an equal game, ill give you credit for it cause i dont believe they can be equal to us in Denver. You can take that however you want (you and javalon) but we will see who knows most after dec. 7.

Return of Lava
11-20-2003, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by Javalon
Dude, this has nothing to do with trying "to be friends with horsey." The Chiefs are a very good team this season. The Broncos are better than their current record. You don't have to bash to the Chiefs just to build up the Broncos. This is about respecting your worthy opponents.

I really can't believe you aren't "scared" of the Chiefs and Packers games. (Scared in a football sense where you think your team could struggle) Even if the Broncos somehow managed to cakewalk through those games, there is plenty of reason to assume they won't before the games occur. Im not bashing the chiefs, i never said they suck like some other fans. I, however, dont think the can be equal to us when we play in denver. I expected the resutls of the first game as far as yards and first downs. in a sense that we would lead in those categories.

Return of Lava
11-20-2003, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by horseface
If the Chiefs don't scare you...I wonder why most teams in the NFL fear them. WHAT!!! If the NFL teams were scared by them, would it really have been a puny WR from the BENGALS to say he guarentees a victory? Not only that, they went out and did it! That really shows fear horsey.

bmanbronco
11-20-2003, 05:53 PM
listen, with everything said I just hope we are able to pull off each win one at a time starting with chicago. I like our chances no matter where we play or who we play and I hope our defense and offense feed off eachother for some awesome wins!!!! I hope we go in to each game not fearing, but believing we can win. If we do that then I think we win!!!!

Return of Lava
11-20-2003, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by horseface
making a prediction will never show anyone that you "know most". I, personally, wouldn't be surprised if KC does lose at Invesco. It is very tough to beat good teams on the road...and that game will most likely not affect KC's season in the least. The Broncos know that they need that game because they have two very tough road games that they could easily lose after that. A 9-7 record could get the final wild card spot...but either the way...the Broncos NEED that game more. I know the Chiefs CAN win...but I wouldn't be heartbroken or surprised if they didn't. WTF you just gave me a paragraph why the linesmakers and bookees were so good cause they "predict" the outcome and how scary it was!

bmanbronco
11-20-2003, 05:56 PM
There is alot of power on both sides of the ball we just need to make it work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Return of Lava
11-20-2003, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by horseface
of course you did...you say it every week. Did you expect to lose that game...NO. And that's my point. You obviously think the Broncos are the best team in the NFL...it's blatantly obvious. But it's also very obvious that you're trying to hype up the Broncos by tearing down the Chiefs. It's fine that you are a huge Bronco fan...and a huge homer...many fans are. But to say you're not afraid of a team with a 9-1 record is simply moronic. So....does that make Chad Johnson....a moron?

Return of Lava
11-20-2003, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by horseface
Chad Johnson is one of the NFL's best receivers this year...I wouldn't go so far as to call him puny. And the guarantee was an attempt to get his team fired up and back up his claim...he has already admitted as much. If you don't think other teams get worried when the Chiefs are the next team on their schedule, you just keep getting more and more idiotic. Ok, it looks like you are the homer arond here saying the chiefs scare everybody. It doesnt matter what reason Chad Johnson had to guarantee his victory. He wasnt scared and he plays for the bengals. They are plenty of teams better than them (you can save that "bengals had won 4 straight and arent the bengals you played in week 1" comment from your next post) that shouldnt be scared either.......including the Broncos.

Return of Lava
11-20-2003, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by horseface
no...Chad Johnson has a big mouth...and he should be glad his teammates backed him up. But it wasn't that he wan't afraid of KC...he was trying to fire up his teammates for the biggest game of their season thus far...there is a difference. And many people in the NFL did say Chad Johnson was absolutely a moron for making that claim...like I said...he was very lucky that his teammates bailed him out...I think that anyone that makes a guarantee in the NFL is making a "moronic" move. Look at Simeon Rice...he looked pretty damn stupid after the game, huh? I realize that you cant make guarantees in the NFL, cause nobody knows what actually going to happen. ANYBODY who does though, obviously isnt "scared" of them though. I am not gonna sit here and guarantee a victory over the chiefs, but i will tell you i am not afraid and i DO expect we will win.

Return of Lava
11-20-2003, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by horseface
I'm sure Shanahan and the Broncos will have enough common sense to realize that the Chiefs could very easily present a problem to the Broncos...no matter where it's played. NFL teams everywhere can now sleep better knowing that you don't make any decisions for them. I dont know what you are talking about now but i hope you see now that your chiefs dont "scare" anybody. Present a problem, sure. SCARE, hell naw.

That made you sound like the homer.

Javalon
11-20-2003, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by Return of Lava
I am not gonna sit here and guarantee a victory over the chiefs, but i will tell you i am not afraid and i DO expect we will win.

If you'd just phrased it like that to begin with I would have agreed with you.

The way things are going, I think the Broncos have a better than even chance of winning that game. But I personally believe the Chiefs deserve that accolades they're receiving right now. I still hope they collapse and don't make the playoffs (not bloody likely) but I fully respect the danger they pose in both our rematch and any possibly playoff game.

Return of Lava
11-20-2003, 06:24 PM
OK lets see who is talking a ton and not making valid points.

Horseface says:
1) Vegas linemakers "know more" football than anybody
2)What makes them good is how good they can predict outcomes
3)Making a prediction doesnt mean you "know most"
4)NFL Teams fear the Chiefs
5)Chad Johnson didnt fear the chiefs, making him a moron
6)Johnson was "very lucky" the bengals bailed him out
7)Presenting a problem is the same as saying they should be feared
8)The chiefs didnt "fear" the bengals, so they lost

Talking - TON
Valid Points - none

mattos
11-20-2003, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by horseface
you just keep getting more and more idiotic.

and you guys keep getting more and more defensive. if you were as confident as you pretend to be, you wouldn't care so much about correcting every post by fans of another team on their own site. do you realize you have 939 posts on another team's forum. that says alot.

bklynbronco
11-21-2003, 07:13 AM
Originally posted by horseface
Don't believe everything you hear...GB has looked good the last few weeks, and it being played at Lambeau, fairs very well for the Packers. As for the Chiefs, they looked bad last week, but they still have the best record in the NFL with one of the most potent offenses out there. They didn't click on Sunday, but they are a very good team. While their defense is the question mark, they have outscored 9 out of 10 teams so far this year...and that's hard to do. It's great that you have confidence in Jake, but I'd be willing to bet that GB fans have faith in Favre as well. And the KC fans know that Trent Green is looking very solid as well, he had another game of over 300 yards on Sunday with over a 100 qb rating. Believing in your QB won't make your remaing "tough" 3 games any easier.

GB has looked awful in lambaeu and if Tim Rattay comes and beats GB in GB then I would definitely not be afraid of them. Lambaeu is not the same place it used to be and neither is Brett with a bum thumb. Ahman Green is a fumbler as well as you know: OT win For KC in Lambeau. If you win 9 out of 10 games yes i do believe you have outscored the opposition 9 out of ten times whether by one point or 20 points. The running game for KC ws nonexistant sunday against the bengals plus being down by 11 in the 3rd qt made Trent green have to go to the air. Didn't he get a third of his passing yards in the 4th qt alone? Look don't get me wrong KC has one of if not the best o-line in the league so Trent will get his time to throw but as the season winds down i think he wil be asked to be a focal point.Priest holmes wasn't a factor and dante hall was not shut down but controlled and KC lost with trent having one his better games. What does that mean? That even if trent has 400 yards but priest or hall is not a factor in the game they will lose. I rather take my chances with jake who might not break a 300 yard game for the rest of the season but gets the ball to portis,r smith or s. sharpe and denver wins. That's not hoping he does that, that's what he's done so far.

bklynbronco
11-21-2003, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by horseface
Trent doesn't call the plays. The running game was inexistent b/c the Chiefs chose to only give Priest 16 carries...that has nothing to do with Trent Green.

Who said anything about Trent calling the plays? The sitaution the team is in calls for whatever plays the coaches decide. If it's a close game, a balance of running and passing plays will probably be used. If your a head by a lot and it's the second half of the game more running plays will be used to run out the clock or one or two passes deep trying to give out knock out blows will probably be used. Now if your behind by ten or more points in the 4th qt then most of the time the running game is abandoned and the qb will throw more. being that priest holmes was nullified in the cincy game and they weren't kicking to hall, trent had to air it out to bring the chiefs back. That has nothing to do with play calling. trent tried to bring his team back by himself (i give him respect for that) but his best was not enough to win the game. that's what i mean. Favre,brady,Mcnair those qb can win you some games when thier offense is struggling I don't know if trent can. that's what I'm trying to say.

Chronic_Toker
11-21-2003, 08:17 AM
I definitely had a great feeling about the Snake when I heard about his coming to Denver. He never had the surrounding cast in Arizona, so how could he have showed his true potential. BTW, I heard last year Arizona came to Mile High and the fans were chanting for him, is that true?

bklynbronco
11-21-2003, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by horseface
he won the GB game for them. Trent did not fail to win this game. The coordianator didn't give Priest the ball enough...The chiefs were up 6-3 after halftime...they weren't behind the entire game. The coaching mistakes made in this game kept trent from being able to bring his team back...that and the fact that the defense didn't come up with the big stop they needed for the first time this year. Favre, Brady, and McNair...they don't play on defense or call the plays...so they couldn't have done anything more than trent did. Your argument holds no water...and it's obvious you're only trying to tear down Trent as he is quickly becoming one of this years best QB's.


Relax horse face nobody is trying to tear down your boy. first of all this is his first real season on a playoff caliber team. his numbers were good last year but the chiefs were a 500 team at best. second, how many 100 yard games has priest had? Doesnt he has a lot of recieving yards too? Priest doesnt just hurt you running he also hurts you with screens and dumps right? so when in the second half, not the first half ,the second half when the chiefs were down 17-6 would Vermiel need to pass or run? I believe he started to pass more, right? how many yards did trent get in the 4th qt alone? A lot. right? Why? because the chiefs were trying to come back and cincy had stop your running game. That he almost pulled it out is awesome. The fact remains he didn't. oh by the way several turnovers did help you in that Gb game and ahman's cough up in OT wasn't caused by trent so as much as trent had one of his greatest games it was a combination of a lot of things that went right for the chiefs that day. look your right he is one of the better qbs this year no doubt about that but the playoffs are a different animal and that's when you prove what kind of qb your. by all means jake will have to prove that too but i like his chances just as well as you like trents chances.

Mount-n-Groan
11-21-2003, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by Chronic_Toker
I definitely had a great feeling about the Snake when I heard about his coming to Denver. He never had the surrounding cast in Arizona, so how could he have showed his true potential. BTW, I heard last year Arizona came to Mile High and the fans were chanting for him, is that true?

Yes, that's true. Once Jake signed with the Broncos then he let it be known that when the Denver fans were chanting, "We want Jake!", he was saying inside his head. "Well, I want you."

Javalon
11-21-2003, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by Chronic_Toker
I definitely had a great feeling about the Snake when I heard about his coming to Denver. He never had the surrounding cast in Arizona, so how could he have showed his true potential. BTW, I heard last year Arizona came to Mile High and the fans were chanting for him, is that true?

Heh, that last game where the Cardinals got destroyed by the Broncos had me seriously doubting whether or not the Broncos should sign Jake. He sure didn't look good in that game.

But, as I and others have said before, he was playing for the Cardinals! Many ex-Cardinals have gone on to other teams and looked much better than they did in Arizona. I'm starting to think the Broncos should start focusing on signing players that "haven't lived up to their potential" on teams like Arizona, Detroit, and Chicaco. I used to include Cincy on that list but they look like they're finally turning things around.

Return of Lava
11-21-2003, 09:41 AM
Jake is the cinderella of the year.

broncos4ever
11-21-2003, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by horseface
so when Trent brings back the Chiefs from a 17 point 4th quarter deficit...a lot of factors came into play...but when Trent can't come back against Cincy...his effort wasn't enough...don't you see the disrecpencies in your statements. You say that McNair and the likes don't come up short...but when Trent doesn't either...everyone else gets the credit. You are making it blatantly obvious that your views are skewed by your hatred of this 9-1 team.

Look Horseface... Sure we are going to be biased for Denver, afterall this is a Denver Broncos Message board and most of us are Bronco die hard fans...

That fact aside, bklynbronco makes a very good point. Trent only came back against Green Bay because Ahmed fumbled the ball, there was one questionable no-call of a clip that should have been called on punt return of Dante's that got the ball back up to the 30 or so to get things rolling for Kansas City, and several Green Bay miscues.

Time will tell the tale if Trent Green can be the quarterback you think he can be. For me, I'm a doubter. He has done well this year I will give you that. Of course I'd rather have Jake, we'll see whose better.

pikman
11-21-2003, 09:50 AM
Jake and TG both have proven nothing so far. They are both young talented QB's, however history will rate them. To date neither has "played" in a superbowl, or major playoff game. We will rave about Jake, he is and will be a perfect fit for this offense I am sure time will prove this. KC fan will rave about TG and all the good he does for the Chiefs. Like I said earlier let's all meet back at this thread in ten years and then thumb our noses at the other guy.

Return of Lava
11-21-2003, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by pikman
Jake and TG both have proven nothing so far. They are both young talented QB's, however history will rate them. To date neither has "played" in a superbowl, or major playoff game. We will rave about Jake, he is and will be a perfect fit for this offense I am sure time will prove this. KC fan will rave about TG and all the good he does for the Chiefs. Like I said earlier let's all meet back at this thread in ten years and then thumb our noses at the other guy. What i was saying was that you dont need time to tell how good you look. All you have to do is look. plummer's performance has been exceptional (not to say green hasnt been) and i dont need more time to see the same thing.

dan_marino
11-21-2003, 10:55 AM
Dan Marino is better.

You guys will start talking about superbowls.

Well, Elway won because of Terrel Davis.

Even Plummer has great potential with Portis and Shanahan around.

pikman
11-21-2003, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by bcollin1
In the end, how good a RB is depends on whether you prefer a power guy like Lewis, or a guy who can make moves and take it to the house on any play, like Portis or LT.

There IS no right answer there,

Gotta take exception to that statement. You're saying Jerome Bettis is as good a back as Barry Sanders was because I prefer a power back to someone who is shiftier and quicker. How good a running back is can well be determined by stats.

dan_marino
11-21-2003, 01:31 PM
bcollin1 & horseface,
Why don't both of u have a boxing duel and stop talking?

Would be fun for the rest of us while u stop your trash talking!

P.S. Barking dogs seldom bite

bklynbronco
11-21-2003, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by horseface
so when Trent brings back the Chiefs from a 17 point 4th quarter deficit...a lot of factors came into play...but when Trent can't come back against Cincy...his effort wasn't enough...don't you see the disrecpencies in your statements. You say that McNair and the likes don't come up short...but when Trent doesn't either...everyone else gets the credit. You are making it blatantly obvious that your views are skewed by your hatred of this 9-1 team.

before this season started I would have taken Steve McNair,,Brett Favre,,drew bledsoe, and D. Mcnabb before trent green if you want to go there. in the green bay game down 31-21 and the next packer drive results in a tip pass interception for touchdown 31-28. next drive for the packers they punt. yeah that was all trent green he's part of the defense too. No credit to the defense making stops and scoring off of turnovers. Again down by17 and he has to throw the ball so of course the yards are padded. KC has the best offensive line in football so they get no credit either i guess. He can throw for 500 yards but if you don't win how great is he? Understand what i'm saying. KC wins with Priest,special teams and.....and trent green. they won't win just with trent green. all the qb's i picked ahead of trent don't have a complete offense like KC. McNair? what offense? Bett Favre who is his recievers? honestly? Bledsoe travis henry who? is that why they drafted MaGehee? Mcnabb? also no recievers. These QBs do it by themselves. Is trent green a good QB? Yes. Can he win you a game when priest is shut down. I don't think so. Right now at 9-1 everything has gone right for the chiefs. though he tried to make the come back against cincy, is that what he's known for? the comeback. what reputation does trent have? He has to create his own reputation and that's what we have yet to see. Remember last year Rich gannon was gods gift to QB's now he might not even make the raiders. also I'm not involving jake cause he has to prove to denver fans that's he's the real deal also. so i'm not being bias to denver players. we have to see trent accomplish something first before we start labeling people great. we are in a generation of one hit wonders or one year wonders and are quick to name people great before they win anything. The chiefs are either the best team or tied with tenn for the best team in football but i won't give trent the benefit of the doubt for QB can't do it.

bklynbronco
11-21-2003, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by horseface
"What does that mean? That even if trent has 400 yards but priest or hall is not a factor in the game they will lose."

This is the statement that I have a problem with. Priest Holmes barely broke 100 all purpose yards against Buffalo (only 83 rushing yards). Dante did not have a return for a TD...and the Chiefs won by 33 points. So your statement above is not a true statement in all cases...it was simply the case one time...against cincy. The chiefs will not lose if Priest or Dante doesn't win it. Trent only had about 275 passing yards in that game...but it was his play and his consistent passing that helped the Chiefs blow out the Bills. The fact is...Trent is just as important right now to this offense as Priest Holmes or Dante Hall. Just read that quote from above again...and tell me you honestly think it's true.

Are you into stats or winning? again no credit to the defense.What did drew do in that game. How many turnover's did you guys get in that game? why is so hard for you to understand that I won't give him credit untill the playoffs. second It's a combination of all three,trent, priest and the dante that make the chiefs dangerous. but the defense makes turnover that puts your offense in great positions. All year it's been a combination of defensive turnovers,big plays on offense and special teams that had you undefeated and now you want to say because of the steady poise of trent green the chiefs have been winning. cut it out cause your not convincing me of that, period. just like Rich gannon had a career year last year and he was the man so is trent we'll see what he does in the playoffs. I guess you have green on this immortal pedestal and you want the rest of the nfl to give him respect but it doesn't work that way. If he is all that you say he is come january he'll shine bright in the spotlight.Oh by the way did priest have any TD's in that buffalo game? I believe he did so he was a factor in the game somewhat.

bklynbronco
11-21-2003, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by horseface
Don't believe everything you hear...GB has looked good the last few weeks, and it being played at Lambeau, fairs very well for the Packers. As for the Chiefs, they looked bad last week, but they still have the best record in the NFL with one of the most potent offenses out there. They didn't click on Sunday, but they are a very good team. While their defense is the question mark, they have outscored 9 out of 10 teams so far this year...and that's hard to do. It's great that you have confidence in Jake, but I'd be willing to bet that GB fans have faith in Favre as well. And the KC fans know that Trent Green is looking very solid as well, he had another game of over 300 yards on Sunday with over a 100 qb rating. Believing in your QB won't make your remaing "tough" 3 games any easier.

In case all of the posters are wondering this is the horseface post that started our debate. he's boast of green's 300 yard game in a lost. I believe that the chiefs are one of the best teams or is the best team in football as of right now and green is having a great year but it's the playoffs where stars are born. i'll wait till january to to see what he does, that's my whole point. this is his first year leading a playoff team to maybe a superbowl we'll see what he's about. that's all.

bklynbronco
11-21-2003, 03:22 PM
what comeback? the green bay game? Is that whay your holding on to? turnovers and a stingy d. did not help in that comeback at all? How many times did you guys get good field position because of hall and they kept kicking it out of bounds. are you telling me that priest holmes was not a factor in the comeback? It was all trent green. see this is my problem you want to give him more credit and i want to give him less credit so we are at a impasse. Agree to disagree. but in my opinion and this is my opinion he has to do it the playoffs, that's it. that's the stage manning is at. great season QB but bad playoff QB. He's trying to win one playoff game to get people off his back. trent hasn't got there yet so we'll see.

P.S. priest holmes touch downs were not a factor because they were inside the five against buffalo. wow. Just by him playing in the game he's a factor. cause you have to stop him no matter what. whether he is on or not you don't know if he could break a long run so the defense still has to play the run because of his reputation. that helps trent too HF.

bklynbronco
11-21-2003, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by horseface
I never said he did it alone...but Elway never did it by himself either...it's always a team effort to make a big comeback. The D always has to make the stops...the receivers have to get open and make the catches...that's all I'm saying...and you left out the TD to get it to 31-21...it was a 17 point lead they came back from. Either way...I never once said he is a great QB and will be remembered as such. I simply said he was able to lead his team to victory against adversity...and you said he hasn't done it. You must see the discrepancies in the argument you present. You say that John Elway won all of their comebacks with no Defense, no running backs, no receivers...and that just doesn't hold up. This whole argument stems from the fact that I said Trent can lead his team to a big comeback victory...and he did...in Green Bay. Others argue that it shouldn't be that special because the D was in the prevent...of course they were...they were up 17...any comeback begins by moving the ball and scoring against the prevent. As the margin gets closer, the D tightens up though. This same fellow would tell you that it shouldn't count because GB's pass Defense is bad...did John Elway never lead a great comeback against a poor pass D? Of course he did...but you wouldn't take away from the comeback b/c of this...and either would I. Either way...the CHIEFS made a great comeback against the packers...and Trent Green most certainly lead the charge.

I never brought up john elway so i hope your not talking about me. second 31-21, if that interception didn't happen to make it 31-28( because it happen on the very next drive horseface) the way ahman green was running on the chiefs you don't think he couldn't have wasted some valuable clock so the chiefs wouldn't have had so much time to comeback? That turnover helped trent immensly in his great comeback. if that's his claim to fame for you, so i can say that he led his team through adversity ok one game you got it he's the greatest comebackQB in history.(i'm being sarcastic) but seriously one game doesn't make him a battle tested QB. lets wait and see.

bklynbronco
11-21-2003, 03:39 PM
i have not once in this thread brought up elway. If you talking about the marino vs elway thread that's different but that has nothing to do with this thread.

bklynbronco
11-21-2003, 03:48 PM
why does elway have the most comeback victories he didn't have dominating teams. he has The Drive horseface, that was all him. 3rd and 18 yards for a first down on the road in cleveland. the snap is bad and he still completes a pass to steve watson for a first down. Vintage elway. all him. don't go there. sammy winder was a thousand yard runner but he was no terrell davis. vance johnson rickey nattiel and mark jackson compared to rod smith, edmac and shannon sharpe. I'll take the latter. he was the whole offense in the 80's.

bklynbronco
11-25-2003, 09:05 AM
I couldn't respond to you cause my work day was done and it was unfortunate that we started this discussion so hot and heavy at the end of the day. I understood everything you pointed out horseface. Because i said he couldn't win a game by himself you got all huffy and puffy about it and you wanted to prove he's good enough to be a factor or why KC won games by bringing up the green bay game. that's all well and good and i eventually gave you that point. But through out all my points you never understood me. he doesn't have a reputation for leading teams from behind, this is honestly his first year leading a playoff caliber team into the playoffs so the inexperience may hurt him in the playoffs. I'm not saying that he can't do it, all I'm saying is that he hasn't done it consistantly so I won't give him that credit yet. That's my whole point. You won't be able to convince me of that. but I did undersatnd what you said. i gave you the point he did help in winning the green bay game. You were so angry with me my points were looked over as being repetitive. All I'm saying that there are qb that have a great year and thier are qb that have great careers and trent is having a great year. nobody knows what the future holds so i hold my opinion of him untill then. No my opinion of him is not negative is just up in the air right now.
Please don't take this discussion personal, I don't know what happened in the last couple of days but the post have gotten really nasty throught out this board. I really have no prob with you.