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WABronco
11-21-2005, 09:35 PM
Bernard Pollard, S, Purdue

What's with Purdue, everybody's leavin early...

OhNoKoolAid
11-21-2005, 09:44 PM
Bernard Pollard, S, Purdue

What's with Purdue, everybody's leavin early...

There was a mild uproar regarding defensive coaching philosophies, coupled with a subpar season, if I remember correctly. It will be interesting to see where he lands value-wise, as some scouts consider him better than Bing.

Edwards may have a dissapointing draft day, after being considered a potential first rounder earlier in the season. He lost his starting job and became a situational guy. As of now, I would say at least Kiwi, Mario, Dumervil, Hali and Gaines Adams, should he declare, are all above him, and he may struggle to top injury questioned Henderson and Wimberly as well. His workouts are key, because his recent history is less appealing.

WABronco
11-22-2005, 10:45 AM
There was a mild uproar regarding defensive coaching philosophies, coupled with a subpar season, if I remember correctly. It will be interesting to see where he lands value-wise, as some scouts consider him better than Bing.

Edwards may have a dissapointing draft day, after being considered a potential first rounder earlier in the season. He lost his starting job and became a situational guy. As of now, I would say at least Kiwi, Mario, Dumervil, Hali and Gaines Adams, should he declare, are all above him, and he may struggle to top injury questioned Henderson and Wimberly as well. His workouts are key, because his recent history is less appealing.

I'm sure you've seen Pollard, but damn...

He's built like a LB, literally, I mean he's big. I think they were playing Iowa last year, and he was layin big hits on everything that moved.

How's his coverage skill, and I'm assuming he's a SS.

BroncoRT
11-22-2005, 11:02 AM
I'm sure you've seen Pollard, but damn...

He's built like a LB, literally, I mean he's big. I think they were playing Iowa last year, and he was layin big hits on everything that moved.

How's his coverage skill, and I'm assuming he's a SS.

Darnell Bing is probably going to come out early also and his stock is rising. As of now Bing, Huff, probably Allen (even with the injury), and Landry from LSU are all going to be drafted ahead of him.

OhNoKoolAid
11-22-2005, 05:02 PM
Darnell Bing is probably going to come out early also and his stock is rising. As of now Bing, Huff, probably Allen (even with the injury), and Landry from LSU are all going to be drafted ahead of him.

I'm going to disagree on this one. Pollard is the prototype everyone is looking for, Adrian Wilson, Tank williams, Roy Williams, Greg Davis... all of those have a similar skill set and are amongst the top performers at their position, albeit Davis has been more of a wave player and has yet to establish himself, still his draft position warrants his inclusion. Bing may be first, but I'd say Pollard is second at this time. Landry is decent, but centerfield types are never taken above big hitters. Even Ed Reed was a late first rounder. Allen's injury may not seem as significant now, but we are kidding oursleves if we don't think it will effect his draft status. He was a projected second rounder when he came out last season, and after an average audition at corner and a season ending injury, I don't think his stock rose any. Huff is a late first type that may be tried at corner before he is resigned to safety. He started out at corner this season and was solid, but Texas could put more overall talent on the field with him at safety. Corner has more value and I wouldn't be suprised to see him consider himself one at the Senior Bowl/Combine.

WABronco
11-22-2005, 09:03 PM
I'm going to disagree on this one. Pollard is the prototype everyone is looking for, Adrian Wilson, Tank williams, Roy Williams, Greg Davis... all of those have a similar skill set and are amongst the top performers at their position, albeit Davis has been more of a wave player and has yet to establish himself, still his draft position warrants his inclusion. Bing may be first, but I'd say Pollard is second at this time. Landry is decent, but centerfield types are never taken above big hitters. Even Ed Reed was a late first rounder. Allen's injury may not seem as significant now, but we are kidding oursleves if we don't think it will effect his draft status. He was a projected second rounder when he came out last season, and after an average audition at corner and a season ending injury, I don't think his stock rose any. Huff is a late first type that may be tried at corner before he is resigned to safety. He started out at corner this season and was solid, but Texas could put more overall talent on the field with him at safety. Corner has more value and I wouldn't be suprised to see him consider himself one at the Senior Bowl/Combine.

Would you consider him more of a SS because of his size, or does he have adequate cover skills?

Frankly, as long as the guy's (whoever it is) a bonafide playmaker (right now), I'm fine with any safety selection.

BroncoRT
11-23-2005, 09:11 AM
Would you consider him more of a SS because of his size, or does he have adequate cover skills?

Frankly, as long as the guy's (whoever it is) a bonafide playmaker (right now), I'm fine with any safety selection.

I personally like Huff and Bing. This draft is deep with some very good safety's, so if we draft any one of the top 5-6 safety's I will be happy.

OhNoKoolAid
11-23-2005, 03:33 PM
Would you consider him more of a SS because of his size, or does he have adequate cover skills?

Frankly, as long as the guy's (whoever it is) a bonafide playmaker (right now), I'm fine with any safety selection.

He's a strong safety, but in this league, it doesn't matter a great deal. The position of safety is becoming pretty fluid, and most safeties are interchangeable. I think what you see with safeties in the league is that most can't cover, but everyone always complains about this and thinks this safety or that safety can make a difference. The personnel directors of the league understand this, and what you see now are big, athletic hitters with some concept of zone defense and a passion for laying the wood. So what if you can't go one on one with a guy, just be able to break on balls in zone or make plays when they come to you. It is for this reason that I think safety is not a major emphasis when constructing a defense. After all, how many Ed Reeds are in the NFL? The good safeties, Harrison, Darius, Taylor, Roy Williams and most of the young up and comers, Adrian Wilson, Tank Williams, just to name a few, all these players fit the mold I discussed. They know how to make plays around the line of scrimmage and can step up in zones. You need these plays made far more than the single play of covering the deep half. It is that very reason that pure centerfielders are never drafted high, and the recent good ones were all mid-round mild suprises, like Gibril Wilson, Eric Coleman, Madieu Williams...

Besides, even if we were to draft a centerfielder, would that fit the defense? I don't think so, since our safeties are repeatedly asked to defend the run and blitz, and our coverage safety, Brandon, is only a sub package player. Coverage linebackers that can run like deer are what's in vogue for handling the tight end revolution. Teams want safeties that make plays within 15 yards of the line of scrimmage, and only ask for mild competency in deep halves.

It is for this reason that Pollard and Bing have a leg up on the other quality safeties in this draft. Allen is a so-so tackle that struggles in run support, he's a likely cover two candidate, so why is he still considered first round material? Besides, the times I've seen him, he's been washed away in most run plays, and some of you may have seen the embarrasing steamrolling at the hands of Ronnie Brown last year. Landry is a better version of Brodney Pool, and again, has the traits that only cover one aspect of the position, an aspect that fans highly value, moreso than most personnel directors. Not that Landry won't be a great player in this league, but what does Landry do that a mid-round centerfielder can't do that makes Landry worthy of such a high pick?

To me, unless a player is a once-in-a-lifetimer type safety, as was Shaun Taylor, I don't think the position holds much value in the first round, considering the success of third round free safeties recently. I'd much rather take a Michael Boulware-ish Brian Iwuh of Colorado in the third because he is an athletic upgrade and fits the scheme to a T. Pollard would be a good match for Denver, but for the value...I'm not sure it is worth it. For one, our safeties haven't been the problem in the passing game. If we have any problem, it is generating a quality edge rush to collapse the pocket for our pocket pushers. This is the one flaw I see consistently. In honesty, I don't see a safety in this draft that you could add to our roster now and say "wow, this guy really has made a difference over the other guy." Yet, if you package picks and aquire a guy like Kiwanuka, you would definitetly see an immediate difference in sack totals and opponents passing figures. The safety position just needs an athlete upgrade in the later rounds, not a first round pick.

By the way, don't read into the league's passing rankings. They tell you very little about the performance of the defense. Footballoutsiders.com can tell you everything you need to know, and doesn't rely simply on raw totals without looking at context, as the NFL rankings do.

WABronco
11-23-2005, 04:48 PM
He's a strong safety, but in this league, it doesn't matter a great deal. The position of safety is becoming pretty fluid, and most safeties are interchangeable. I think what you see with safeties in the league is that most can't cover, but everyone always complains about this and thinks this safety or that safety can make a difference. The personnel directors of the league understand this, and what you see now are big, athletic hitters with some concept of zone defense and a passion for laying the wood. So what if you can't go one on one with a guy, just be able to break on balls in zone or make plays when they come to you. It is for this reason that I think safety is not a major emphasis when constructing a defense. After all, how many Ed Reeds are in the NFL? The good safeties, Harrison, Darius, Taylor, Roy Williams and most of the young up and comers, Adrian Wilson, Tank Williams, just to name a few, all these players fit the mold I discussed. They know how to make plays around the line of scrimmage and can step up in zones. You need these plays made far more than the single play of covering the deep half. It is that very reason that pure centerfielders are never drafted high, and the recent good ones were all mid-round mild suprises, like Gibril Wilson, Eric Coleman, Madieu Williams...

Besides, even if we were to draft a centerfielder, would that fit the defense? I don't think so, since our safeties are repeatedly asked to defend the run and blitz, and our coverage safety, Brandon, is only a sub package player. Coverage linebackers that can run like deer are what's in vogue for handling the tight end revolution. Teams want safeties that make plays within 15 yards of the line of scrimmage, and only ask for mild competency in deep halves.

It is for this reason that Pollard and Bing have a leg up on the other quality safeties in this draft. Allen is a so-so tackle that struggles in run support, he's a likely cover two candidate, so why is he still considered first round material? Besides, the times I've seen him, he's been washed away in most run plays, and some of you may have seen the embarrasing steamrolling at the hands of Ronnie Brown last year. Landry is a better version of Brodney Pool, and again, has the traits that only cover one aspect of the position, an aspect that fans highly value, moreso than most personnel directors. Not that Landry won't be a great player in this league, but what does Landry do that a mid-round centerfielder can't do that makes Landry worthy of such a high pick?

To me, unless a player is a once-in-a-lifetimer type safety, as was Shaun Taylor, I don't think the position holds much value in the first round, considering the success of third round free safeties recently. I'd much rather take a Michael Boulware-ish Brian Iwuh of Colorado in the third because he is an athletic upgrade and fits the scheme to a T. Pollard would be a good match for Denver, but for the value...I'm not sure it is worth it. For one, our safeties haven't been the problem in the passing game. If we have any problem, it is generating a quality edge rush to collapse the pocket for our pocket pushers. This is the one flaw I see consistently. In honesty, I don't see a safety in this draft that you could add to our roster now and say "wow, this guy really has made a difference over the other guy." Yet, if you package picks and aquire a guy like Kiwanuka, you would definitetly see an immediate difference in sack totals and opponents passing figures. The safety position just needs an athlete upgrade in the later rounds, not a first round pick.

By the way, don't read into the league's passing rankings. They tell you very little about the performance of the defense. Footballoutsiders.com can tell you everything you need to know, and doesn't rely simply on raw totals without looking at context, as the NFL rankings do.

Yea, I've noticed the midround successes recently, and it looks to be a trend...

I agree that we shouldn't spend our first picks on a safety, we need impact players, but we shouldn't wait 'till the second day to pick one up either...

Who do you think needs to be replaced first, Fergy or Lynch? Or can he use 'em for one more year?

Thx for the website dude...

OhNoKoolAid
11-23-2005, 06:46 PM
Yea, I've noticed the midround successes recently, and it looks to be a trend...

I agree that we shouldn't spend our first picks on a safety, we need impact players, but we shouldn't wait 'till the second day to pick one up either...

Who do you think needs to be replaced first, Fergy or Lynch? Or can he use 'em for one more year?

Thx for the website dude...

No problem on the website, the more people that that read into and learn about modern performance analysis tools, the more educated the fan base.

I think the third round is the best place for drafting a safety if we really want one. I also am not entirely convinced we need one, if we are able to resign Brandon and groom Cox for the role of nickel or dime safety. If we were to draft one to replace a particular player, I'd say Ferguson is the first to go. He is the type of player that will perform at league average, but you'll always be looking to upgrade him. I still think Lynch brings a lot to the table. He is probably our best blitzer, period, or Ian Gold. Lynch does struggle with deep halves coverage, but he does so many things in the box that his presence is easily justified on the field. One thing some fans don't realize is that this isn't pop warner football, where the safety plays fifteen yards off the ball and works as the last line of defense. Not in Denver, here they are extra linebackers, and we don't really focus so hard on "strong" and "free" designations.

Still, I would say that we could draft at least one safety on the first day, since Lynch isn't getting younger. Roman Harper of Alabama looks similar to the recent mid-round success stories of recent years. I've already mentioned Iwuh of Colorado, and Daniel Bullocks is another mid-rounder with some potential. What someone would have to convince me to think otherwise is how much more total success would we acheive with a Landry in the first round that we couldn't get out of Harper in the 2nd/3rd? I would say the difference is minimal, and, if you've studied economics, the opportunity cost of selecting a safety (meaning the value of what you could have drafted instead) in the first round is far too great when guys like Jonathan Scott, Eric Winston, Tamba Hali, Gaines Adams... players at more impact positions are still on the board. That is just my take on the position. Safeties are like running backs, you have to be desperate or certain they will be All Pros if you plan on drafting them in the first round, because performers at the position can come from the middle rounds.

WABronco
11-23-2005, 06:53 PM
No problem on the website, the more people that that read into and learn about modern performance analysis tools, the more educated the fan base.

I think the third round is the best place for drafting a safety if we really want one. I also am not entirely convinced we need one, if we are able to resign Brandon and groom Cox for the role of nickel or dime safety. If we were to draft one to replace a particular player, I'd say Ferguson is the first to go. He is the type of player that will perform at league average, but you'll always be looking to upgrade him. I still think Lynch brings a lot to the table. He is probably our best blitzer, period, or Ian Gold. Lynch does struggle with deep halves coverage, but he does so many things in the box that his presence is easily justified on the field. One thing some fans don't realize is that this isn't pop warner football, where the safety plays fifteen yards off the ball and works as the last line of defense. Not in Denver, here they are extra linebackers, and we don't really focus so hard on "strong" and "free" designations.

Still, I would say that we could draft at least one safety on the first day, since Lynch isn't getting younger. Roman Harper of Alabama looks similar to the recent mid-round success stories of recent years. I've already mentioned Iwuh of Colorado, and Daniel Bullocks is another mid-rounder with some potential. What someone would have to convince me to think otherwise is how much more total success would we acheive with a Landry in the first round that we couldn't get out of Harper in the 2nd/3rd? I would say the difference is minimal, and, if you've studied economics, the opportunity cost of selecting a safety (meaning the value of what you could have drafted instead) in the first round is far too great when guys like Jonathan Scott, Eric Winston, Tamba Hali, Gaines Adams... players at more impact positions are still on the board. That is just my take on the position. Safeties are like running backs, you have to be desperate or certain they will be All Pros if you plan on drafting them in the first round, because performers at the position can come from the middle rounds.

Agreed!!!!

WABronco
11-23-2005, 07:18 PM
Pollard to enter NFL draft
Boilermakers junior safety cites tension with Tiller
By Michael Pointer
michael.pointer@indystar.com
November 23, 2005


Bernard Pollard said he enjoyed the three years he spent with the Purdue football team.
Just not enough to return for a fourth season.
The Boilermakers' starting strong safety for the past three seasons informed coach Joe Tiller in a fax that he will skip his senior season to enter April's NFL draft.
"I had fun while I was there," Pollard said Tuesday. "If a couple of things had been different, I would have thought about staying. I hate to leave. But I did my time.
"I took a lot of things at Purdue. It hurts sometimes. I feel so much better that I'm gone."
He is the second Purdue junior to declare for the draft since the end of a disappointing 5-6 season, joining defensive end Ray Edwards.
Tiller said Tuesday afternoon he wasn't surprised.
"Bernard and I have talked multiple times about anger control and things you can do to be more effective,'' he said. "He's made a decision, and it's an emotional decision."
Edwards said after Purdue's 41-14 victory over Indiana on Saturday that displeasure with the coaching staff was one reason he might leave.
Pollard didn't sound much different Tuesday, specifically in his comments about Tiller.
Pollard did not attend Purdue's final team meeting Sunday or the team banquet Monday night. He said he left campus immediately after the team returned from the IU game and headed to his hometown of Fort Wayne, Ind.
"I felt like I needed to separate myself from Purdue as quickly as possible," he said.
The friction between Pollard and Tiller wasn't a secret. The coach at times worried the hard-hitting safety was too emotional and banned him from talking to the media briefly this season.
They had a verbal confrontation during a preseason practice in August that led to Tiller suspending him for three days. Pollard yelled at Tiller to "give me my papers" as he left the field -- which means a player is asking for a release so he can transfer.
But he returned and led Purdue with three interceptions -- all in the final three games -- and 92 tackles.
"I haven't talked to (Tiller) really since that day," said Pollard, who declined to comment on any other incidents. "We went through that whole time, with no communication.
"It (stinks). No relationship should be like that with a coach and his players. But it is where it is."
Tiller disputed that.
"To say we haven't had any communication is less than accurate in the sense I have talked to him," he said. "I have not ignored him."
Tiller said the stormy departures of Pollard and Edwards weren't indicative of deeper problems on one of the most disappointing teams in Purdue history.
Some observers expected the Boilers to contend for the Big Ten title, and they rose to 11th in the Associated Press poll. But a 42-35 double-overtime loss to Minnesota started a six-game losing streak and the Boilers failed to qualify for a bowl game for the first time since 1996.
"I didn't have a problem with Bernard on Saturday afternoon, for the most part,'' Tiller said. "I wish he had some bigger games against some of those better teams early in the year. He was the most experienced guy in the secondary."

OhNoKoolAid
11-23-2005, 07:50 PM
Thanks for the article WAB

coach that not only cannot get the most out of his two best defensive players but cannot even have a solid relationship with them should not be a coach for much longer...

MileHighSpirit
11-23-2005, 07:53 PM
Pollard to enter NFL draft
Boilermakers junior safety cites tension with Tiller
By Michael Pointer
michael.pointer@indystar.com
November 23, 2005


Bernard Pollard said he enjoyed the three years he spent with the Purdue football team.
Just not enough to return for a fourth season.
The Boilermakers' starting strong safety for the past three seasons informed coach Joe Tiller in a fax that he will skip his senior season to enter April's NFL draft.
"I had fun while I was there," Pollard said Tuesday. "If a couple of things had been different, I would have thought about staying. I hate to leave. But I did my time.
"I took a lot of things at Purdue. It hurts sometimes. I feel so much better that I'm gone."
He is the second Purdue junior to declare for the draft since the end of a disappointing 5-6 season, joining defensive end Ray Edwards.
Tiller said Tuesday afternoon he wasn't surprised.
"Bernard and I have talked multiple times about anger control and things you can do to be more effective,'' he said. "He's made a decision, and it's an emotional decision."
Edwards said after Purdue's 41-14 victory over Indiana on Saturday that displeasure with the coaching staff was one reason he might leave.
Pollard didn't sound much different Tuesday, specifically in his comments about Tiller.
Pollard did not attend Purdue's final team meeting Sunday or the team banquet Monday night. He said he left campus immediately after the team returned from the IU game and headed to his hometown of Fort Wayne, Ind.
"I felt like I needed to separate myself from Purdue as quickly as possible," he said.
The friction between Pollard and Tiller wasn't a secret. The coach at times worried the hard-hitting safety was too emotional and banned him from talking to the media briefly this season.
They had a verbal confrontation during a preseason practice in August that led to Tiller suspending him for three days. Pollard yelled at Tiller to "give me my papers" as he left the field -- which means a player is asking for a release so he can transfer.
But he returned and led Purdue with three interceptions -- all in the final three games -- and 92 tackles.
"I haven't talked to (Tiller) really since that day," said Pollard, who declined to comment on any other incidents. "We went through that whole time, with no communication.
"It (stinks). No relationship should be like that with a coach and his players. But it is where it is."
Tiller disputed that.
"To say we haven't had any communication is less than accurate in the sense I have talked to him," he said. "I have not ignored him."
Tiller said the stormy departures of Pollard and Edwards weren't indicative of deeper problems on one of the most disappointing teams in Purdue history.
Some observers expected the Boilers to contend for the Big Ten title, and they rose to 11th in the Associated Press poll. But a 42-35 double-overtime loss to Minnesota started a six-game losing streak and the Boilers failed to qualify for a bowl game for the first time since 1996.
"I didn't have a problem with Bernard on Saturday afternoon, for the most part,'' Tiller said. "I wish he had some bigger games against some of those better teams early in the year. He was the most experienced guy in the secondary."

I hope NFL teams question Edwards and Bernard enough to let them drop. I would love for Denver to be able to pick up Edwards in the 2nd; most likely by trading up in the 2nd. It likely won't happen, however. After the combine, Edwards will be a 1st round lock.

WABronco
11-23-2005, 11:04 PM
I hope NFL teams question Edwards and Bernard enough to let them drop. I would love for Denver to be able to pick up Edwards in the 2nd; most likely by trading up in the 2nd. It likely won't happen, however. After the combine, Edwards will be a 1st round lock.

Hehehe, that's my kinda thinkin!

MileHighSpirit
11-24-2005, 08:17 AM
Hehehe, that's my kinda thinkin!

Imagine Denver with Ray Edwards at RDE and Mario Williams at LDE for the next 5 years....

Scary isn't it?

WABronco
11-24-2005, 10:38 AM
Imagine Denver with Ray Edwards at RDE and Mario Williams at LDE for the next 5 years....

Scary isn't it?


OOOooooooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. ..aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

daniel80111
11-24-2005, 12:27 PM
Darnell Bing is a playmaker where as Pollard is just a physically gifted man. If you ask me, I'm going with the guy that takes the ball away from the offense. Get Bing, and you've got yourself 6 more turnovers a year. Get Pollard, and well just keep waiting for "potential" to develop.

WABronco
11-24-2005, 12:49 PM
Darnell Bing is a playmaker where as Pollard is just a physically gifted man. If you ask me, I'm going with the guy that takes the ball away from the offense. Get Bing, and you've got yourself 6 more turnovers a year. Get Pollard, and well just keep waiting for "potential" to develop.

Umm, Pollard was pretty good as it is...

Bing's great too, but Pollard isn't chopped liver either.

daniel80111
11-24-2005, 01:25 PM
Umm, Pollard was pretty good as it is...

Bing's great too, but Pollard isn't chopped liver either.

I didnt mean to make it sound that Pollard is bad. I was just trying to note their differences. And Pollard is definitely physically gifted. I just think Bing has playmaking ability that you just cant teach to players, kinda like what Darrent Williams has but on another level.

WABronco
11-24-2005, 01:39 PM
I didnt mean to make it sound that Pollard is bad. I was just trying to note their differences. And Pollard is definitely physically gifted. I just think Bing has playmaking ability that you just cant teach to players, kinda like what Darrent Williams has but on another level.

True, but I agree with OhNo on this one. We should definitely hold off on the S position until the 2nd/3rd rounds.

daniel80111
11-25-2005, 01:21 AM
True, but I agree with OhNo on this one. We should definitely hold off on the S position until the 2nd/3rd rounds.

Yeah, safety isn't our greatest need right now. We're probably better off getting something we need with our 1st round picks, but if Darnell is on the board, it will be very tempting
:D

OhNoKoolAid
11-25-2005, 11:48 AM
Yeah, safety isn't our greatest need right now. We're probably better off getting something we need with our 1st round picks, but if Darnell is on the board, it will be very tempting
:D

Yeah, I suppose he would. I don't imagine him being around when we pick, but if he is available and we do take Bing, I won't complain...