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Javalon
11-30-2005, 11:16 PM
Our offense is one of the better units in the league. We are much improved this year in our red zone offense (although there's always room for more improvement). We've got a great running game and our QB is ranked 5th in the league in passer rating.

So why the hell are we ranked 29th in the league in 3rd down conversions? :confused:


What's your take? What is killing us on 3rd down? Will it be our Achilles' heel down the stretch?

Freestyle
11-30-2005, 11:25 PM
If we can't sustain drives, we won't beat the Colts. Yeah, the 3rd down conversion % worries me.

Emancipator
11-30-2005, 11:33 PM
I hope it won't hurt us down the stretch, but that is something you would like to improve on. 3rd down conversions are important for any team. It keeps the ball in a teams possession and therefore have a much greater opportunity to move into scoring position.

broncos_mtnman
11-30-2005, 11:33 PM
Our offense is one of the better units in the league. We are much improved this year in our red zone offense (although there's always room for more improvement). We've got a great running game and our QB is ranked 4th in the league in passer rating.

So why the hell are we ranked 29th in the league in 3rd down conversions? :confused:


What's your take? What is killing us on 3rd down? Will it be our Achilles' heel down the stretch?

Well, the St. Jake crowd won't like this, but JP is one of the main problems on third down. With all of the improvement he seems to have obtained, he has a HUGE drop off on 3rd down...

FIRST DOWN - 131 att / 91 comp (69.5) / 104.8 rating
SECOND DOWN - 97 att / 61 comp (62.9) / 93.5 rating
THIRD DOWN - 84 att / 40 comp (47.6) / 74.3 rating

When your QB completes less than half of his passes, it's hard to make alot of 1st downs.

I mentioned in my thread after the Dallas game that our inability to keep the ball when on offense nearly cost us that game. Just as it did against Wash, NE, NYG (it actually did cost us that game) and Philly.

I hope it doesn't cost us in the future, but my concern is that it will.

Emancipator
11-30-2005, 11:36 PM
Mtn man, it would be nice to know the leagues average of those three stats you presented as well. Thanks in advance if you obtain that info.

CameronY
11-30-2005, 11:42 PM
Yeah, this is troubling indeed and if we could fix this, we'd be in GREAT shape.

I'm not too sure why exactly Jakes numbers have dropped off so dramatically on 3rd. A common sense assessment would be to assume Jake is getting a bit to ancy (sp?) in the pantsy and not staying focused.

Of course, there are probably other contributing factors besides panic attacks on his behalf. I haven't studied the trends on how we handle 3rd downs, but we definitely need to make some changes. Maybe we need to provide some different looks to the D's so they don't know what we're going to try. Nothing too risky, just something to mix it up so we have a chance to improve that conversion rate.

Ravage!!!
11-30-2005, 11:45 PM
I think its been the lack of threat at the TE position AND the lack of a big Posession receiver. We need someone like Big Ed... shannon of course was great to have.

Putz did pick up the game in the Dallas game, and I hope we are able to use the TE more from this point out. PLUS... we never seem to be able to use our running backs out of the backfield, or full back like we use to use Griffin.

I think the lack of threats in the passing game is what hurts here.

Emancipator
11-30-2005, 11:45 PM
CameronY, I'm sure all QBs average drops on third down, but I'm trying to find the stats on it. It's just not one QBs. I would bet that all NFL QBs average decline on 3rd down. It is the most obvious passing down. :D
I'll try to find the stats on this.

homestar
11-30-2005, 11:48 PM
From the games I have seen, it seems like quite a few of the incompletions on third down are due to drops. These drops could still be part Jakes fault (bad placement of ball?) but nonetheless don't help the situation.

If you look at it the other way, I think our 3rd down defense is pretty good compared to the league, I don't have exact numbers though. Third down is where we put the most pressure on opposing teams and force the play to develope to soon, I assume opposing teams do the same...

Other teams may have a better third down percentage but do they have the record?

silkamilkamonic
11-30-2005, 11:49 PM
FIRST DOWN - 131 att / 91 comp (69.5) / 104.8 rating
SECOND DOWN - 97 att / 61 comp (62.9) / 93.5 rating
THIRD DOWN - 84 att / 40 comp (47.6) / 74.3 rating

When your QB completes less than half of his passes, it's hard to make alot of 1st downs.


It would be nice to see averages of every QB against the nickel. 3rd down is more then likely a passing down and the defense will have a play for it. I agree he needs to be a little better then that, but I would expect any QB's completion % to decrease on third down. How much of a decresae though is a good question.

The ironic thing is we are 3rd in the league on 4th downs at 77%. We are 6th in the league for 4th down attempts at 13, with the leader being 15.

Only 14 teams have 10 or more attempts, 15 teams have a conversion % of above 50% on 4th downs.

That does show the agressive playcalling and the ability to execute a successful play when needed.

See Yuz.

broncos_mtnman
11-30-2005, 11:52 PM
Mtn man, it would be nice to know the leagues average of those three stats you presented as well. Thanks in advance if you obtain that info.

I guess I could, but I don't see how it has anything to do with the topic. JP has a big drop-off on third down and this is the reason for alot of our 3rd down woes.

The Dark Knight
11-30-2005, 11:57 PM
It's because most of the time 3rd down is a passing down and we do not have a recieving threat other than Rod in the game.

We need more than just one guy out there, Rod can't do it all, all the time.

broncos_mtnman
12-01-2005, 12:03 AM
CameronY, I'm sure all QBs average drops on third down, but I'm trying to find the stats on it. It's just not one QBs. I would bet that all NFL QBs average decline on 3rd down. It is the most obvious passing down. :D
I'll try to find the stats on this.

Well, I won't go to the work of finding the league avg, but the QBs that are ahead of JP in passer rating are...

Carson Palmer
71.5 % on first down
72.2 % on second down
64.4 % on third down

Peyton Manning
71.7 % on first down
66.4 % on second down
64.9 % on third down

Ben Rothlisberger
66.0 % on first down
63.9 % on second down
53.3 % on third down

Marc Bulger
71.4 % on first down
64.2 % on second down
59.7 % on third down

The only QB with a comparable drop off in third down passing is Big Ben. The Steelers are also one of the two teams worse than us on 3rd down conversions.

Emancipator
12-01-2005, 12:05 AM
I guess I could, but I don't see how it has anything to do with the topic. JP has a big drop-off on third down and this is the reason for alot of our 3rd down woes.

It's the NFL. Are the Broncos the only team that has a drop in 3rd down conversions? We've run the ball and not converted on 3rd downs. We've only focusing on the passing but not the runs on third down. I'm curious to know the other teams QB stats on the issue to compare. I want to see if it is a Bronco isolated problem or a problem that is common simply because it is third down. 3rd downs are more of a passing down so teams set their defense against the pass. That is a logical reason to want to see the comparisons.

silkamilkamonic
12-01-2005, 12:08 AM
Completion % looks to be where the problem would be then.

I don't understand the play calling sometimes also. 3rd and 1 and you go for a playaction bomb?

Why?

See Yuz.

Javalon
12-01-2005, 12:10 AM
I guess I could, but I don't see how it has anything to do with the topic. JP has a big drop-off on third down and this is the reason for alot of our 3rd down woes.
It has everything to do with your point.

If you are blaming Jake's performance on 3rd downs and stating his relative passer ratings and completion percentage as evidence, we would need to see a comparison to other QBs' relative 3rd down performance and their teams' 3rd down percentage in order to gain the proper perspective.

broncos_mtnman
12-01-2005, 12:13 AM
It has everything to do with your point.

If you are blaming Jake's performance on 3rd downs and stating his relative passer ratings and completion percentage as evidence, we would need to see a comparison to other QBs' relative 3rd down performance and their teams' 3rd down percentage in order to gain the proper perspective.

I provided the 4 QBs ranked higher than JP.

Emancipator
12-01-2005, 12:18 AM
I provided the 4 QBs ranked higher than JP.

Thanks Mtn Man for the stats.

CameronY
12-01-2005, 12:19 AM
From the games I have seen, it seems like quite a few of the incompletions on third down are due to drops. These drops could still be part Jakes fault (bad placement of ball?) but nonetheless don't help the situation.

.... Third down is where we put the most pressure on opposing teams and force the play to develope to soon, I assume opposing teams do the same...

Yes, this is an important observation. I suppose most defenses DO INDEED gamble on what they expect their opposing offense to try (a pass). If there was some way we could catch the D in some sort of bait and switch situation, there's where we could have some good potential in making big plays.

LawDog
12-01-2005, 12:23 AM
I think this is one of those stats that can really be twisted around and doesn't really create an accurate picture. For example, how many of Jake's 1st and 2nd down completions resulted in first downs? How many drives have we had with no third downs, or significantly less thirds than firsts? If you have a drive with four first downs and one third, and results in points on the board, I'm a happy guy.

On the other hand, if the offense is consistently putting us in third down situations, that is concerning - but maybe only if our average yards to go on third down is 5 or greater. What is our third down average yards to go vs. the league?

See what I mean? There really is so much more that needs to be factored in, rather than just panicking over a snapshot stat, one that may or may not mean anything.

Javalon
12-01-2005, 12:26 AM
I provided the 4 QBs ranked higher than JP.
Thanks for that. And while it's a good start, it doesn't reveal too much to look at just those 4 QBs.

You'd need to look at how many QBs have 3rd down performances similar to Jake's and compare how many of their teams are ranked significantly higher than ours.

I'm sure that a sub-50% percentage sure doesn't help. But without comparing similar circumstances on other teams, it is very difficult to ascertain how much of a contributing factor it might be.

CameronY
12-01-2005, 12:29 AM
I think this is one of those stats that can really be twisted around and doesn't really create an accurate picture. For example, how many of Jake's 1st and 2nd down completions resulted in first downs? How many drives have we had with no third downs, or significantly less thirds than firsts? If you have a drive with four first downs and one third, and results in points on the board, I'm a happy guy.

On the other hand, if the offense is consistently putting us in third down situations, that is concerning - but maybe only if our average yards to go on third down is 5 or greater. What is our third down average yards to go vs. the league?

See what I mean? There really is so much more that needs to be factored in, rather than just panicking over a snapshot stat, one that may or may not mean anything.

I can understand where you are coming from regarding a bunch of numbers being twisted to fit certain perspectives, etc. One can play with numbers all day long to fit ones needs.

But the 3rd down conversion percentage speaks VOLUMES of how the offense is handling the onslaught presented by their opposing defense. this percentage is almost an indicator of how many tricks the offense has in their bag to fool the opposing defense.

Javalon
12-01-2005, 12:30 AM
I think this is one of those stats that can really be twisted around and doesn't really create an accurate picture. For example, how many of Jake's 1st and 2nd down completions resulted in first downs? How many drives have we had with no third downs, or significantly less thirds than firsts? If you have a drive with four first downs and one third, and results in points on the board, I'm a happy guy.

On the other hand, if the offense is consistently putting us in third down situations, that is concerning - but maybe only if our average yards to go on third down is 5 or greater. What is our third down average yards to go vs. the league?

See what I mean? There really is so much more that needs to be factored in, rather than just panicking over a snapshot stat, one that may or may not mean anything.
That is a very good point. But I think in the long run the situations kind of even out and the comparisons take on more validity. I still view our poor stats on 3rd down as a bit alarming, although not too alarming considering our fine 9-2 record. ;)

LawDog
12-01-2005, 12:37 AM
I can understand where you are coming from regarding a bunch of numbers being twisted to fit certain perspectives, etc. One can play with numbers all day long to fit ones needs.

But the 3rd down conversion percentage speaks VOLUMES of how the offense is handling the onslaught presented by their opposing defense. this percentage is almost an indicator of how many tricks the offense has in their bag to fool the opposing defense.

I agree that it is an indicator, but I don't agree that you can look just at that number and get an uneasy feeling about our offense. For instance, just looking at the third downs where we passed (attempts and completions combined) - is there any correlation between third and long with incompletes, or are they pretty much even regardless of yards to go? If the incompletes mainly come when we are trying to convert third and 7 or more, I am less concerned b/c that is an automatic passing situation. However, if Jake is putting the rock on the grass in a lot of third and 3 situations (especially with our run game) I would certainly be concerned.

That is what I mean, not that the stat is completely without merit, just that some additional information would make it a lot more meaningful...

CameronY
12-01-2005, 12:38 AM
On the other hand, if the offense is consistently putting us in third down situations, that is concerning - but maybe only if our average yards to go on third down is 5 or greater. What is our third down average yards to go vs. the league?


LawDog, I agree. If we were consistently being given less than 5 yards to go on 3rd, our 3rd down conversion percentage would probably be better. But this is not realistic with the spectrum of plays we have to execute in order to move the ball down field.

CameronY
12-01-2005, 12:41 AM
However, if Jake is putting the rock on the grass in a lot of third and 3 situations (especially with our run game) I would certainly be concerned.

That is what I mean, not that the stat is completely without merit, just that some additional information would make it a lot more meaningful...

Amen. I agree with that!

LawDog
12-01-2005, 12:43 AM
Going back to Jav's original post, our third down conversion percentage on the whole is poor - so what is our average yards to go on third? Are we really in passing situations on third down or are we having trouble converting the short yards as well?

Is there some statmaster out there that can generate this kind of info fairly easily?

Davii
12-01-2005, 12:46 AM
I guess I could, but I don't see how it has anything to do with the topic. JP has a big drop-off on third down and this is the reason for alot of our 3rd down woes.

It also means we're getting forced into third and long situations a lot more than we would like to be. If we have a third and 2 and pass, we're asking for problems. We are averaging somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 yards per rush attempt, if it's 3rd and short we run it.

Of course you have to mix it up so as not to be predictable, but it seems to me the third downs we pass on, more often than not, are because we are at least 3rd and 4+. I know 3rd and 4 is not exactly long, but it's not short either.

I don't have any stats or any way to back up a word I just typed, so i'll save everyone the trouble and let you know that now.

Javalon
12-01-2005, 12:46 AM
And the #1 quarterback in the NFL
(QB rating on 3rd downs) is...
[Drum roll]
....

Kurt Warner
[/Drum roll]
Things that make you go... Hmmmm.....


BTW, where are you guys finding the quarter by quarter breakdowns on passer ratings?

rogue719
12-01-2005, 07:48 AM
Well, the St. Jake crowd won't like this, but JP is one of the main problems on third down. With all of the improvement he seems to have obtained, he has a HUGE drop off on 3rd down...

FIRST DOWN - 131 att / 91 comp (69.5) / 104.8 rating
SECOND DOWN - 97 att / 61 comp (62.9) / 93.5 rating
THIRD DOWN - 84 att / 40 comp (47.6) / 74.3 rating

When your QB completes less than half of his passes, it's hard to make alot of 1st downs.

I mentioned in my thread after the Dallas game that our inability to keep the ball when on offense nearly cost us that game. Just as it did against Wash, NE, NYG (it actually did cost us that game) and Philly.

I hope it doesn't cost us in the future, but my concern is that it will.

The problem isn't that simple. One of the reasons for that drop off on third downs is that they are usually third and long situations where the defense knows they are defensing a pass instead of a run and can put more pressure on the QB, ignore the running backs and drop more people into coverage. The higher percentage on first and second downs is partially reflected by the fact that defenses have to respond to the play action fake, have to hesitate and figure out where the ball is before they can rush Jake.

The solution is to cut down on the third and longs, particularly by avoiding drive killing illegal procedure, false start and holding penalties that cost us the yards gained on plays and pushes us into third and long situations. When we are in a third and short situation we do much better, since we have the option to run or pass using play action.

Therefore, the problem isn't necessarily JP but an overall offense problem that they need to solve.

TheChampion
12-01-2005, 08:56 AM
our inability to drop back and pass is detrimental to our 3rd and long success

gobroncsnv
12-01-2005, 09:03 AM
Well, I won't go to the work of finding the league avg, but the QBs that are ahead of JP in passer rating are...

Carson Palmer
71.5 % on first down
72.2 % on second down
64.4 % on third down

Peyton Manning
71.7 % on first down
66.4 % on second down
64.9 % on third down

Ben Rothlisberger
66.0 % on first down
63.9 % on second down
53.3 % on third down

Marc Bulger
71.4 % on first down
64.2 % on second down
59.7 % on third down

The only QB with a comparable drop off in third down passing is Big Ben. The Steelers are also one of the two teams worse than us on 3rd down conversions.


Palmer - Lost more games
Manning - Won more games
Rothlisberger - Lost more games
Bulger - Lost more games

Nuff said

Ravage!!!
12-01-2005, 09:18 AM
Palmer - Lost more games
Manning - Won more games
Rothlisberger - Lost more games
Bulger - Lost more games

Nuff said

Nuff said?? Whats this say? This says nothing? I don't know what you are proving or saying. You are saying that becaues we have more "wins" that we can't improve our 3rd down conversions??? This makes no sense.

gobroncsnv
12-01-2005, 09:19 AM
What is the most important stat that any team puts up?

Ravage!!!
12-01-2005, 09:22 AM
What is the most important stat that any team puts up?

If you are going to say that our team doesn't have concerns simply because we are 9-2.... then I'm going to puke.

Emancipator
12-01-2005, 09:22 AM
by Broncosnv

What is the most important stat that any team puts up?




Wins...........

gobroncsnv
12-01-2005, 09:25 AM
If you are going to say that our team doesn't have concerns simply because we are 9-2.... then I'm going to puke.

Would you ask Trent Dilfer to give back his SB ring because the Ravens had a crappy offense?

Emancipator
12-01-2005, 09:25 AM
Even saying that, you have to find ways to improve on the things you know you should.

Ravage!!!
12-01-2005, 09:28 AM
I find our 3rd down conversion rate to be ALARMING. Especially since we have one of the top running games in the league. I find it hard to believe that we have a LOT of third and longs...at least no more than anyone else in the league.

I think we are lacking in that possession receiver that is SO important on those needed passes.

Emancipator
12-01-2005, 09:31 AM
I have to agree about that Ravage. But believe it or not.........Rod Smith isn't being double covered. He may be our #1 WR but he serves as the possession receiver. So we will have to look at Rod and say are you getting open on 3rd downs.

Ravage!!!
12-01-2005, 09:31 AM
Would you ask Trent Dilfer to give back his SB ring because the Ravens had a crappy offense?

A: He had an "ALL WORLD" defense

B: He already WON the Super Bowl. We haven't even won a playoff game yet. Do you THINK the Ravens worked on things they needed to improve upon DURING their Super Bowl year?

C: A team NEVER is content with lousy results in ANY part of their game, despite their winning record. The winning record is ONLY temporary. Its only counts as far as your last win takes you.

If IMPROVING our weaknesses helps us improve our winning record I thinkt ht would be a GOOD thing to be concerned and worked upon. However, IGNORING teh weaknesses, will only help you deminish that winning.

Mount-n-Groan
12-01-2005, 09:35 AM
I don't know where to get the QB Rating by down stats, but here is the percentage of first downs when passing on 3rd down stat broken down by conference. Jake's not only at the bottom of the AFC - he's at the bottom of the league! :ugh:



AFC Leaders in %First Downs, Pass on 3rd Down
(Thru games of Nov. 28, 2005)

Rank Player Team
1 Peyton Manning Ind 51.1 ( 48/94 )
2 Drew Brees SD 46.4 ( 39/84 )
3 Carson Palmer Cin 42.4 ( 42/99 )
4 David Carr Hou 42.0 ( 34/81 )
5 Brooks Bollinger NYJ 41.7 ( 15/36 )
6 Byron Leftwich Jac 39.6 ( 44/111 )
7 Tom Brady NE 38.5 ( 37/96 )
8 Steve McNair Ten 37.6 ( 41/109 )
9 Anthony Wright Bal 36.9 ( 31/84 )
10 Trent Green KC 36.7 ( 36/98 )
11 Kerry Collins Oak 35.6 ( 37/104 )
12 Trent Dilfer Cle 35.6 ( 32/90 )
13t J.P. Losman Buf 33.3 ( 18/54 )
13t Ben Roethlisberger Pit 33.3 ( 15/45 )
15 Kyle Boller Bal 31.6 ( 12/38 )
16 Gus Frerotte Mia 31.0 ( 35/113 )
17 Jake Plummer Den 27.4 ( 23/84 )

NFC Leaders in %First Downs, Pass on 3rd Down
(Thru games of Nov. 28, 2005)

Rank Player Team
1 Brian Griese TB 48.3 ( 28/58 )
2 Michael Vick Atl 46.3 ( 31/67 )
3 Jake Delhomme Car 46.1 ( 47/102 )
4 Mark Brunell Was 45.8 ( 49/107 )
5 Brett Favre GB 44.9 ( 48/107 )
6 Drew Bledsoe Dal 44.6 ( 45/101 )
7 Josh McCown Ari 43.6 ( 24/55 )
8 Marc Bulger StL 43.5 ( 27/62 )
9 Joey Harrington Det 42.7 ( 32/75 )
10 Kurt Warner Ari 42.0 ( 29/69 )
11 Aaron Brooks NO 41.7 ( 40/96 )
12 Daunte Culpepper Min 38.5 ( 20/52 )
13 Eli Manning NYG 36.4 ( 39/107 )
14 Chris Simms TB 34.1 ( 15/44 )
15 Matt Hasselbeck Sea 33.3 ( 28/84 )
16 Kyle Orton Chi 32.6 ( 31/95 )
17 Brad Johnson Min 32.6 ( 14/43 )
18 Donovan McNabb Phi 32.1 ( 27/84 )

Provided by Stats, Inc.


At first I thought our ineptness on 3rd down might be partly attributed to the conservative-play-calling-with-the-lead thing, but after looking at these numbers I'm not so sure.

On a related note: TwoMinuteWarning does a correlation between various stats and team wins. (http://www.twominutewarning.com/correlations.htm) While 3rd down success rate isn't the most important factor it's in the top third based on that chart.

It's almost surprising that we're doing so well considering our relative lack of success on third down. I can only imagine what improvement in this area could/would mean.

gobroncsnv
12-01-2005, 09:39 AM
I find our 3rd down conversion rate to be ALARMING. Especially since we have one of the top running games in the league. I find it hard to believe that we have a LOT of third and longs...at least no more than anyone else in the league.

I think we are lacking in that possession receiver that is SO important on those needed passes.

Ok, I agree that we had too many 2nd and longs (which led to 3rd and longs) in the Dallas game... My recollection is that we did a LOT more runs on 1st down than anything, and Dallas was loaded for us in the box, daring us to pass. Then I look at Mtnman's stat (good work, by the way) that Plummer's success rate is much better on first, and then gotta ask why we didn't pass more on first down. We didn't allow ourselves as good a chance on 1st by doing even much play action, including running the boot. I would have thought that would have worked more, and that is our best passing situation. So, in agreeing that our 3rd down rate is alarming, did anyone look to see how many times we have gotten the first downs on a first or second down play? Too obvious, but don't wait til 3rd (or 4th) to make the first down.
All that said, I still place the most importance on WL records (and I know you do too), so something is going pretty well...

Ravage!!!
12-01-2005, 09:39 AM
Wow.... thats really scarey. That worries me for down the road, to be honest.

Javalon
12-01-2005, 11:15 AM
B: He already WON the Super Bowl. We haven't even won a playoff game yet. Do you THINK the Ravens worked on things they needed to improve upon DURING their Super Bowl year?
That's a key point.

IF we go to and win the Super Bowl despite our terrible 3rd down conversion rate, then we can look at the stat and laugh. But if we struggle down the road and don't reach our goals, our problems on 3rd down will not be a laughing matter.

We have achieved anything yet, not even making the playoffs. I thought it would be obvious that we'd still want to fix any problem areas.

Javalon
12-01-2005, 11:19 AM
I don't know where to get the QB Rating by down stats, but here is the percentage of first downs when passing on 3rd down stat broken down by conference. Jake's not only at the bottom of the AFC - he's at the bottom of the league! :ugh:



AFC Leaders in %First Downs, Pass on 3rd Down
(Thru games of Nov. 28, 2005)

Rank Player Team
17 Jake Plummer Den 27.4 ( 23/84 )


At first I thought our ineptness on 3rd down might be partly attributed to the conservative-play-calling-with-the-lead thing, but after looking at these numbers I'm not so sure.

On a related note: TwoMinuteWarning does a correlation between various stats and team wins. (http://www.twominutewarning.com/correlations.htm) While 3rd down success rate isn't the most important factor it's in the top third based on that chart.

It's almost surprising that we're doing so well considering our relative lack of success on third down. I can only imagine what improvement in this area could/would mean.
Thanks for those stats, M-n-G. They really put things into perspective.

I like Jake and I think he's having a really good season. But he's obviously a part of the problem if he's worst in the entire league in that category. Sure, his receivers and the situations might skew the stat a bit but he can't be the worst in the NFL with this stat and not take a decent chuck of the blame.

Ravage!!!
12-01-2005, 11:45 AM
Thanks for those stats, M-n-G. They really put things into perspective.

I like Jake and I think he's having a really good season. But he's obviously a part of the problem if he's worst in the entire league in that category. Sure, his receivers and the situations might skew the stat a bit but he can't be the worst in the NFL with this stat and not take a decent chuck of the blame.


Uh oh (puts a helmet on you)....

But you are right. Jake has been mistake free (turnover wise) and is having a great year. However, this is an alarming stat. Tendencies are shown, and this stat shows more than just a "bad game" or "dropped pass." Something needs to change, or I fear this will really hurt us if we need to keep drives alive in order to keep OTHER QBs off the field.

Ravage!!!
12-01-2005, 11:51 AM
Ok, I agree that we had too many 2nd and longs (which led to 3rd and longs) in the Dallas game... My recollection is that we did a LOT more runs on 1st down than anything, and Dallas was loaded for us in the box, daring us to pass. Then I look at Mtnman's stat (good work, by the way) that Plummer's success rate is much better on first, and then gotta ask why we didn't pass more on first down. We didn't allow ourselves as good a chance on 1st by doing even much play action, including running the boot. I would have thought that would have worked more, and that is our best passing situation. So, in agreeing that our 3rd down rate is alarming, did anyone look to see how many times we have gotten the first downs on a first or second down play? Too obvious, but don't wait til 3rd (or 4th) to make the first down.
All that said, I still place the most importance on WL records (and I know you do too), so something is going pretty well...

I don' t know what looking at how many first downs we get on first and second down will show. Those first downs are considered in "3rd down conversion" ratios.

EVERY team has third downs. Mastering those 'small' things is what leads a team onward to victory.

Does our W-L record the most important stat? Thats the most important OUTCOME...but if I see a problem that can hinder that outcome against tougher opponents, then I would like to see something change in a HURRY. Because I want to BEAT teh colts. The only way we stand a chance to do that, is to sustain our drives. In order to sustaine our drives, we will have to do a better job at converting our third downs into first downs. Right now, we are BAD at it. THats something that MUST change in order for us to realistically expect us to go to the Super Bowl.

Javalon
12-01-2005, 11:59 AM
Uh oh (puts a helmet on you)....

But you are right. Jake has been mistake free (turnover wise) and is having a great year. However, this is an alarming stat. Tendencies are shown, and this stat shows more than just a "bad game" or "dropped pass." Something needs to change, or I fear this will really hurt us if we need to keep drives alive in order to keep OTHER QBs off the field.
:laugh: I know, make even the slightest negative comment about Jake and prepare for the retaliatory crew to attack.

The fact is, I am neither pro-Jake nor anti-Jake. As with all Broncos, I pull for them all to do well. But I think I'm objective enough to see both the good and bad in the individual players.

Jake is having a good season and I'm optimistic about our chances if he keeps playing this well. But that doesn't mean he is perfect and couldn't use improvement in areas. It would appear that his play on 3rd downs is one of those areas.

But it is a team game and our 3rd down struggles are not just his fault. Long yardage situations, dropped balls, bad calls, good defenses, etc. will all play their part. But if Jake can improve his personal play on 3rd downs, it will lift the entire offense in this regard. The QB is the most important player on the field, like it or not, and thus most of the scrutiny and responsibility falls on him.

LordTrychon
12-01-2005, 12:10 PM
But it is a team game and our 3rd down struggles are not just his fault. Long yardage situations, dropped balls, bad calls, good defenses, etc. will all play their part. But if Jake can improve his personal play on 3rd downs, it will lift the entire offense in this regard. The QB is the most important player on the field, like it or not, and thus most of the scrutiny and responsibility falls on him.
I agree... Jake's partially to blame... but he's far from the sole reason we have this problem.

The one thing that really sticks out in my mind when I think about failed third down conversions is seeing them motion Bell out of the backfield on 3rd and short and throwing a quick hitch to him. Cute... Inventive.... good idea... but they've tried it twice and failed twice. If he catches the ball, he's dangerous in open field. But seriously... you need two yards... quick hitch to Rod. Seriously. C'mon now.

Ravage!!!
12-01-2005, 12:44 PM
:
But it is a team game and our 3rd down struggles are not just his fault. Long yardage situations, dropped balls, bad calls, good defenses, etc. will all play their part. But if Jake can improve his personal play on 3rd downs, it will lift the entire offense in this regard. The QB is the most important player on the field, like it or not, and thus most of the scrutiny and responsibility falls on him.


Very very true.

rogue719
12-01-2005, 04:26 PM
I don' t know what looking at how many first downs we get on first and second down will show. Those first downs are considered in "3rd down conversion" ratios.

EVERY team has third downs. Mastering those 'small' things is what leads a team onward to victory.

Does our W-L record the most important stat? Thats the most important OUTCOME...but if I see a problem that can hinder that outcome against tougher opponents, then I would like to see something change in a HURRY. Because I want to BEAT teh colts. The only way we stand a chance to do that, is to sustain our drives. In order to sustaine our drives, we will have to do a better job at converting our third downs into first downs. Right now, we are BAD at it. THats something that MUST change in order for us to realistically expect us to go to the Super Bowl.

Actually there is something else that isn't being mentioned here. The stats being shown are a compilation of the entire season, not a game by game breakdown. Since I have read and heard that the Broncos are working seriously on improving this statistic, my question would be: are we getting better? Can we look at the stats on a week by week, opponent by opponent basis and see improvement?

Ravage!!!
12-01-2005, 04:29 PM
Actually there is something else that isn't being mentioned here. The stats being shown are a compilation of the entire season, not a game by game breakdown. Since I have read and heard that the Broncos are working seriously on improving this statistic, my question would be: are we getting better? Can we look at the stats on a week by week, opponent by opponent basis and see improvement?

I can go with that. I'd like to see if we have made improvments over the year. But.. if the stats are STILL that low...we would have had some REALLY REALLY bad percentages at the beginning of the season, then some slooooww improvments to STILL be last.

Mount-n-Groan
12-01-2005, 04:37 PM
Actually there is something else that isn't being mentioned here. The stats being shown are a compilation of the entire season, not a game by game breakdown. Since I have read and heard that the Broncos are working seriously on improving this statistic, my question would be: are we getting better? Can we look at the stats on a week by week, opponent by opponent basis and see improvement?

Digest at will...



Mia 1-12 08%
SD 6-16 38%
KC 2-8 25%
Jax 5-15 33%
Was 4-14 29%
NE 3-11 27%
NYG 5-13 38%
Phi 6-14 43%
Oak 5-13 38%
NYJ 7-15 47%
Dal 3-10 30%


:cheers:

SkyFlash1
12-01-2005, 04:47 PM
Yes, this is an important observation. I suppose most defenses DO INDEED gamble on what they expect their opposing offense to try (a pass). If there was some way we could catch the D in some sort of bait and switch situation, there's where we could have some good potential in making big plays.

That's when you use the screen and I recall a lot of dropped screen passes which would explain part of Jake's drop. Also , I think Jake throws at receive feet quite a bit on 3rd down.

rogue719
12-01-2005, 04:47 PM
Digest at will...



Mia 1-12 08%
SD 6-16 38%
KC 2-8 25%
Jax 5-15 33%
Was 4-14 29%
NE 3-11 27%
NYG 5-13 38%
Phi 6-14 43%
Oak 5-13 38%
NYJ 7-15 47%
Dal 3-10 30%


:cheers:

Thanks. They are still kind of up and down. The 08% in the Miami game just killed us. We are sitting at 40% out of the last four games. I think we can see a slow improvement, though Dallas' defense hurt us when we couldn't convert more than 30% in that game. Otherwise, we have to go back to the NE and Washington games to get back into the 20-something percentages.

Still not where we would want to be for a playoff team or a potential Superbowl contender (I feel more comfortable with at least a 50% rate).

Ravage!!!
12-01-2005, 04:49 PM
Digest at will...



Mia 1-12 08%
SD 6-16 38%
KC 2-8 25%
Jax 5-15 33%
Was 4-14 29%
NE 3-11 27%
NYG 5-13 38%
Phi 6-14 43%
Oak 5-13 38%
NYJ 7-15 47%
Dal 3-10 30%


:cheers:

Wow. Thats pretty steady.......unfortunatly.

Mount-n-Groan
12-01-2005, 04:57 PM
Wow. Thats pretty steady.......unfortunatly.

My thoughts exactly.

It seems that we started to come out of it for a while, but the Dallas game was back around our average.

By the way...

The league average is just under 38% (1759/4655). Aside from the Philly and Jets games that was our best. :ugh:

LoyalSoldier
12-01-2005, 05:25 PM
In raw numbers we are Tied for 9th in fewest 3rd down attempts. In 3rd downs made we only have 47, but that is not too far out of being in the middle of the pack.

Also another stat to notice is we are number 2 in successful TD drives of 80 yards or more only behind Seattle.

Baltimore 64/171
Arizona 62/163
Washington 66/161
Jacksonville 67/159
Detroit 56/156
Dallas 65/155
New York (N) 58/152
Tennessee 56/151
Atlanta 70/150
Kansas City 56/149
Tampa Bay 55/149
Carolina 66/148
Miami 50/148
Chicago 45/148
Philadelphia 50/147
Oakland 55/145
New Orleans 56/144
San Francisco 35/143
Houston 49/142
Minnesota 48/142
Green Bay 61/141
New England 53/141
New York (A) 53/141
Denver 47/141
Buffalo 49/140
Seattle 55/139
St. Louis 51/138
Indianapolis 69/131
San Diego 56/131
Cincinnati 51/131
Cleveland 46/130
Pittsburgh 39/128


http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/NFL/OFF-TOTAL/2005/regular?sort_col_1=7&_1:col_1=8&_1:col_2=8

aaronheeb
12-01-2005, 05:59 PM
I think its been the lack of threat at the TE position AND the lack of a big Posession receiver. We need someone like Big Ed... shannon of course was great to have.

Putz did pick up the game in the Dallas game, and I hope we are able to use the TE more from this point out. PLUS... we never seem to be able to use our running backs out of the backfield, or full back like we use to use Griffin.

I think the lack of threats in the passing game is what hurts here.

Me and you Ravage are on the same page on a lot of different issues.... This also being one of them. I think the TE spot is key for us here, and it showed in the Dallas game. Putz and Alexander can get the job done, just dont really understand why they are not used more often, especially on 3rd down. Play action perhaps and they are holding blocks? Dont really know, but on both of our TD drives in the dallas game it was 88 who came through on 3rd down and moved the chains.

I also think Plummer not wanting to make mistakes plays into this a little bit as well. How many times have we seen him dump it 5 yards behind the first down marker? He is checking off and not seeing something, or scared to pull the triger if the coverage is too tight, so he dumps to a flare or 5 yd post and out comes saurbraun.

Using 82 and 88 on the third and 5+ and putting dayne or anderson in for the short yardage ones more often as oppsed to trying something fancy is how we are going to do better on 3rd down imo.

Lomax
12-01-2005, 06:30 PM
I think the empty formations are a large part of it. JP works better off of playaction, and he works better outside of the pocket. Empty formations take these away as viable options. We could come out and run on 3rd and 4 if we need to. But yeah, since 3rd and 5-8 are obvious blitzing downs, and all you need is intermediate yardage, a solid possession receiver or TE would be pretty crucial to bringing up that number. Neither Jeb nor Alexander are great route runners, and Lelie is tall and fast, but not a strong receiver off of bump and run.

All items to consider for next season come draft time. At this point, the team is what it is.

Shrugging Galt
12-01-2005, 07:52 PM
Our offense is one of the better units in the league. We are much improved this year in our red zone offense (although there's always room for more improvement). We've got a great running game and our QB is ranked 5th in the league in passer rating.

So why the hell are we ranked 29th in the league in 3rd down conversions? :confused:


What's your take? What is killing us on 3rd down? Will it be our Achilles' heel down the stretch?

Because we score so much on 1st and second downs. Who needs thirds? :confused:

TheMastermind
12-01-2005, 07:58 PM
no one forget that we have been getting alot of offensive holding penalties (especially these last couple games). they are killing us and setting us way back.

its not an excuse but one of the reasons

i do think that we need to fix this third down problem tho

broncos_mtnman
12-01-2005, 11:01 PM
Things that make you go... Hmmmm.....


BTW, where are you guys finding the quarter by quarter breakdowns on passer ratings?

I get them from nfl.com.

When you pull up a specific QB, you can look at "situational stats."

Javalon
12-01-2005, 11:04 PM
I get them from nfl.com.

When you pull up a specific QB, you can look at "situational stats."
Gotcha. I thought you had a full listing of all the quarterbacks with their quarter by quarter stats listed in the same place.

Thanks for the info.

broncos_mtnman
12-01-2005, 11:07 PM
I don't know where to get the QB Rating by down stats, but here is the percentage of first downs when passing on 3rd down stat broken down by conference. Jake's not only at the bottom of the AFC - he's at the bottom of the league! :ugh:



AFC Leaders in %First Downs, Pass on 3rd Down
(Thru games of Nov. 28, 2005)

Rank Player Team
1 Peyton Manning Ind 51.1 ( 48/94 )
2 Drew Brees SD 46.4 ( 39/84 )
3 Carson Palmer Cin 42.4 ( 42/99 )
4 David Carr Hou 42.0 ( 34/81 )
5 Brooks Bollinger NYJ 41.7 ( 15/36 )
6 Byron Leftwich Jac 39.6 ( 44/111 )
7 Tom Brady NE 38.5 ( 37/96 )
8 Steve McNair Ten 37.6 ( 41/109 )
9 Anthony Wright Bal 36.9 ( 31/84 )
10 Trent Green KC 36.7 ( 36/98 )
11 Kerry Collins Oak 35.6 ( 37/104 )
12 Trent Dilfer Cle 35.6 ( 32/90 )
13t J.P. Losman Buf 33.3 ( 18/54 )
13t Ben Roethlisberger Pit 33.3 ( 15/45 )
15 Kyle Boller Bal 31.6 ( 12/38 )
16 Gus Frerotte Mia 31.0 ( 35/113 )
17 Jake Plummer Den 27.4 ( 23/84 )

NFC Leaders in %First Downs, Pass on 3rd Down
(Thru games of Nov. 28, 2005)

Rank Player Team
1 Brian Griese TB 48.3 ( 28/58 )
2 Michael Vick Atl 46.3 ( 31/67 )
3 Jake Delhomme Car 46.1 ( 47/102 )
4 Mark Brunell Was 45.8 ( 49/107 )
5 Brett Favre GB 44.9 ( 48/107 )
6 Drew Bledsoe Dal 44.6 ( 45/101 )
7 Josh McCown Ari 43.6 ( 24/55 )
8 Marc Bulger StL 43.5 ( 27/62 )
9 Joey Harrington Det 42.7 ( 32/75 )
10 Kurt Warner Ari 42.0 ( 29/69 )
11 Aaron Brooks NO 41.7 ( 40/96 )
12 Daunte Culpepper Min 38.5 ( 20/52 )
13 Eli Manning NYG 36.4 ( 39/107 )
14 Chris Simms TB 34.1 ( 15/44 )
15 Matt Hasselbeck Sea 33.3 ( 28/84 )
16 Kyle Orton Chi 32.6 ( 31/95 )
17 Brad Johnson Min 32.6 ( 14/43 )
18 Donovan McNabb Phi 32.1 ( 27/84 )

Provided by Stats, Inc.


At first I thought our ineptness on 3rd down might be partly attributed to the conservative-play-calling-with-the-lead thing, but after looking at these numbers I'm not so sure.

On a related note: TwoMinuteWarning does a correlation between various stats and team wins. (http://www.twominutewarning.com/correlations.htm) While 3rd down success rate isn't the most important factor it's in the top third based on that chart.

It's almost surprising that we're doing so well considering our relative lack of success on third down. I can only imagine what improvement in this area could/would mean.

Excellent info M-N-G.

You have further proven the glaring weakness we have in the passing game on third downs.

Only a homer could make the claim that this has nothing to do with our sorry 3rd down conversion rate.

CP coming your way!

Emancipator
12-01-2005, 11:19 PM
I'm a homer. I'm proud to be a homer. :D
Just responding to the homer part. If you look back on the post, I for one got the information I needed the first night. Jake is the leader of the Broncos offense. He has to get them peforming better on 3rd downs. 3rd downs are highly important to success in the NFL. Also, Jake has led us to a 9-2 record, but Shanny and Gary better address the Jake led offense concerning the lack of passing success on 3rd down.

Thanks,
The Ultimate Homer

ps,
Emancipator's a homer. :P

Javalon
12-01-2005, 11:32 PM
I'm a homer. I'm proud to be a homer. :D
Just responding to the homer part. If you look back on the post, I for one got the information I needed the first night. Jake is the leader of the Broncos offense. He has to get them peforming better on 3rd downs. 3rd downs are highly important to success in the NFL. Also, Jake has led us to a 9-2 record, but Shanny and Gary better address the Jake led offense concerning the lack of passing success on 3rd down.

Thanks,
The Ultimate Homer

ps,
Emancipator's a homer. :P
That's not being a homer because you aren't insisting that he has no flaws. I'd say you simply have a cup-half-full attitude and there's nothing wrong with that. :beer:

While Jake might indeed be partly responsible for our struggles on 3rd down, he's also partly responsible for our 9-2 record. He's been steadily improving his game and here's hoping the 3rd down area is his next focus.

LoyalSoldier
12-02-2005, 12:22 AM
I don't know where to get the QB Rating by down stats, but here is the percentage of first downs when passing on 3rd down stat broken down by conference. Jake's not only at the bottom of the AFC - he's at the bottom of the league! :ugh:



AFC Leaders in %First Downs, Pass on 3rd Down
(Thru games of Nov. 28, 2005)

Rank Player Team
1 Peyton Manning Ind 51.1 ( 48/94 )
2 Drew Brees SD 46.4 ( 39/84 )
3 Carson Palmer Cin 42.4 ( 42/99 )
4 David Carr Hou 42.0 ( 34/81 )
5 Brooks Bollinger NYJ 41.7 ( 15/36 )
6 Byron Leftwich Jac 39.6 ( 44/111 )
7 Tom Brady NE 38.5 ( 37/96 )
8 Steve McNair Ten 37.6 ( 41/109 )
9 Anthony Wright Bal 36.9 ( 31/84 )
10 Trent Green KC 36.7 ( 36/98 )
11 Kerry Collins Oak 35.6 ( 37/104 )
12 Trent Dilfer Cle 35.6 ( 32/90 )
13t J.P. Losman Buf 33.3 ( 18/54 )
13t Ben Roethlisberger Pit 33.3 ( 15/45 )
15 Kyle Boller Bal 31.6 ( 12/38 )
16 Gus Frerotte Mia 31.0 ( 35/113 )
17 Jake Plummer Den 27.4 ( 23/84 )

NFC Leaders in %First Downs, Pass on 3rd Down
(Thru games of Nov. 28, 2005)

Rank Player Team
1 Brian Griese TB 48.3 ( 28/58 )
2 Michael Vick Atl 46.3 ( 31/67 )
3 Jake Delhomme Car 46.1 ( 47/102 )
4 Mark Brunell Was 45.8 ( 49/107 )
5 Brett Favre GB 44.9 ( 48/107 )
6 Drew Bledsoe Dal 44.6 ( 45/101 )
7 Josh McCown Ari 43.6 ( 24/55 )
8 Marc Bulger StL 43.5 ( 27/62 )
9 Joey Harrington Det 42.7 ( 32/75 )
10 Kurt Warner Ari 42.0 ( 29/69 )
11 Aaron Brooks NO 41.7 ( 40/96 )
12 Daunte Culpepper Min 38.5 ( 20/52 )
13 Eli Manning NYG 36.4 ( 39/107 )
14 Chris Simms TB 34.1 ( 15/44 )
15 Matt Hasselbeck Sea 33.3 ( 28/84 )
16 Kyle Orton Chi 32.6 ( 31/95 )
17 Brad Johnson Min 32.6 ( 14/43 )
18 Donovan McNabb Phi 32.1 ( 27/84 )

Provided by Stats, Inc.


At first I thought our ineptness on 3rd down might be partly attributed to the conservative-play-calling-with-the-lead thing, but after looking at these numbers I'm not so sure.

On a related note: TwoMinuteWarning does a correlation between various stats and team wins. (http://www.twominutewarning.com/correlations.htm) While 3rd down success rate isn't the most important factor it's in the top third based on that chart.

It's almost surprising that we're doing so well considering our relative lack of success on third down. I can only imagine what improvement in this area could/would mean.


There is a slight problem using percentage there. Notice Kyle Boller and Big Ben may have a better percent, but they have fewer first downs completed than Plummer does. They haven't really had a full season so it is hard to compare the three.

Percent is only good if you have the sample size. Sort of like you can complete 100% of you passes when you have only thrown two, but if you can complete 100% when you throw 32 then that is special.

Ravage!!!
12-02-2005, 12:26 AM
There is a slight problem using percentage there. Notice Kyle Boller and Big Ben may have a better percent, but they have fewer first downs completed than Plummer does. They haven't really had a full season so it is hard to compare the three.

Percent is only good if you have the sample size. Sort of like you can complete 100% of you passes when you have only thrown two, but if you can complete 100% when you throw 32 then that is special.

thats true, obviously. But you have to figure that starting QB, 11 weeks into the season are going to have "basically" the same amount of attempts.. or certainly more than any minimum thats reasonable. I agree that there has to be a minimum attempt to be considered in the list, but do you think any of these QBs don't reach the minimum? Boller maybe?

Superchop7
12-02-2005, 07:12 AM
Lelie has dropped 10 of 12 balls on third down.

I haven't added up the numbers on Bell, but he is just as bad.

When Jerry Rice went home, he took our third down conversion percentage with him. (I told you so) He was a third down machine for the Hawks, you can't use boys to do a mans job.

Solution; Put Dayne on the field on third downs, sit Ashleys butt down and get Rice back on this team.
Smith, Putz, Rice, Dayne = First Downs

Emancipator
12-02-2005, 07:25 AM
Lelie has dropped 10 of 12 balls on third down.

I haven't added up the numbers on Bell, but he is just as bad.

When Jerry Rice went home, he took our third down conversion percentage with him. (I told you so) He was a third down machine for the Hawks, you can't use boys to do a mans job.

Solution; Put Dayne on the field on third downs, sit Ashleys butt down and get Rice back on this team.
Smith, Putz, Rice, Dayne = First Downs
Where did you get the stat of acutal drop from Superchop. Are you sure it was drops? Or was 10 of 12 balls thrown Lelie's direction and the balls fell incomplete? Drops indicate touching of the ball. You may be right, but where did you get your stats? Thanks in advance.

Superchop7
12-02-2005, 07:47 AM
You are correct, should not have used the term "drops".

I went through the "play by play" for every game, it's quite the eye-opener.

broncos_mtnman
12-02-2005, 03:44 PM
You are correct, should not have used the term "drops".

I went through the "play by play" for every game, it's quite the eye-opener.

I'm glad you cleared that up.

Not every pass that is thrown is catchable. Balls that were overthrown and underthrown are a part of this number.

aaronheeb
12-02-2005, 03:53 PM
Lelie has dropped 10 of 12 balls on third down.

I haven't added up the numbers on Bell, but he is just as bad.

When Jerry Rice went home, he took our third down conversion percentage with him. (I told you so) He was a third down machine for the Hawks, you can't use boys to do a mans job.

Solution; Put Dayne on the field on third downs, sit Ashleys butt down and get Rice back on this team.
Smith, Putz, Rice, Dayne = First Downs

lol... Rice is not the missing piece to this puzzle.

As i said before. 88, 82 on 3rd +5 and more of 38 and 33 on third and less than 5 instead of trying to get fancy with the empty backfield playcalling. Some fullback dives wouldnt be such a bad idea either since we have such a dominating fullback in Johnson...

sbutk
12-02-2005, 08:10 PM
CameronY, I'm sure all QBs average drops on third down, but I'm trying to find the stats on it. It's just not one QBs. I would bet that all NFL QBs average decline on 3rd down. It is the most obvious passing down. :D
I'll try to find the stats on this.


There's also the most psychological pressure to get the pass right on the money.

I know these are professional athletes, but one still can't argue that has nothing to do with it.


:eek:

Ravage!!!
12-02-2005, 08:26 PM
There's also the most psychological pressure to get the pass right on the money.

I know these are professional athletes, but one still can't argue that has nothing to do with it.


:eek:

Every pass play has pressure. But these guys have been playing QB since elementary school (possibly)... certainly through HS and College. It just becomes another play when you are on the field.

CameronY
12-02-2005, 09:06 PM
Every pass play has pressure. But these guys have been playing QB since elementary school (possibly)... certainly through HS and College. It just becomes another play when you are on the field.

And the QB who leads the offense doesn't recognize the gravity or the importance of getting a first down?

Your statement insinuates that you think they just go out there like robots and are not human.

Ravage!!!
12-02-2005, 09:10 PM
And the QB who leads the offense doesn't recognize the gravity or the importance of getting a first down?

Your statement insinuates that you think they just go out there like robots and are not human.

No. I'm suggesting they are professionals that have been in that situation before. IF Jake is feeling the pressure of every 3rd down pass, then I would say thats the problem of our conversion rates. Can you imagine if thats the case, how he would fold under the pressure of the BIG games?

CameronY
12-02-2005, 09:20 PM
No. I'm suggesting they are professionals that have been in that situation before. IF Jake is feeling the pressure of every 3rd down pass, then I would say thats the problem of our conversion rates. Can you imagine if thats the case, how he would fold under the pressure of the BIG games?

I agree with that. But to say that all plays or downs are the same as every other discredits the developmental path that every QB must trudge through. Few make it BTW.

Excellent QB's don't grow on trees. They have to learn the ropes. You are right, being scared on third down doesn't help anything. He needs to get over it, if that is indeed the issue.

But I think acknowledging the fact that every play is not the same as another would lend creedance to your argument.

Ravage!!!
12-02-2005, 09:28 PM
I agree with that. But to say that all plays or downs are the same as every other discredits the developmental path that every QB must trudge through. Few make it BTW.

Excellent QB's don't grow on trees. They have to learn the ropes. You are right, being scared on third down doesn't help anything. He needs to get over it, if that is indeed the issue.

But I think acknowledging the fact that every play is not the same as another would lend creedance to your argument.

Well, in honesty. I think when a team is playing another team, and you throw on 1st down.. I don't think the pressure on that 1st down pass is any less "gut wrenching" than a third down pass. Missing a first down pass will only cause more pressure for the 2nd down play, and so on and so on.

I think that when you are on a game winning drive, or in the last two minutes, things may feel more "urgent" and certainly more pressured. But these guys are professionals. I don't feel they feel the "pressure" on every third down play. When I was playing, you just get into the rythme of the game, and just play. You lineup, you run the play, then line up again.

Tom Brady took a nap at halftime of his first Super Bowl. I know that Phil Simms did the same thing. Thats the SUPER BOWL and these guys can take a quick nap. I just don't think that 3rd down rattles them any more than any other pass. At least, it shouldn't.

LoyalSoldier
12-02-2005, 09:29 PM
thats true, obviously. But you have to figure that starting QB, 11 weeks into the season are going to have "basically" the same amount of attempts.. or certainly more than any minimum thats reasonable. I agree that there has to be a minimum attempt to be considered in the list, but do you think any of these QBs don't reach the minimum? Boller maybe?

Ture, but if you look at one of my earlier posts we have had to go to third down fewer times than other teams this season. I do agree 3rd down is a weakness for us. A lot of that seems to be that when we get on fire we just start eating up the field, but when we get stopped we have a hard time to get going.

CameronY
12-02-2005, 09:36 PM
Well, in honesty. Tom Brady took a nap at halftime of his first Super Bowl. I know that Phil Simms did the same thing. Thats the SUPER BOWL and these guys can take a quick nap. I just don't think that 3rd down rattles them any more than any other pass. At least, it shouldn't.

When a QB reaches the caliber of those mentioned above then a "nap at halftime" might be feasible. You, I, and every Bronco fan know that Jake is not there yet.

And he won't get there by taking naps at halftime.

Are you suggesting he should?

Ravage!!!
12-02-2005, 09:38 PM
When a QB reaches the caliber of those mentioned above then a "nap at halftime" might be feasible. You, I, and every Bronco fan know that Jake is not there yet.

And he won't get there by taking naps at halftime.

Are you suggesting he should?

*Laughs* No. I'm saying that he's been in the NFL for nearly a decade. He's had 5 years of college football, and 4 years of High School. I'm saying that he isn't as nervous during the normal plays as you might think.

CameronY
12-02-2005, 09:42 PM
*Laughs* No. I'm saying that he's been in the NFL for nearly a decade. He's had 5 years of college football, and 4 years of High School. I'm saying that he isn't as nervous during the normal plays as you might think.

O.k. With that said, are you acknowledging that perhaps the third down conversion problem isn't completely his fault?

If so, where does the problem lie?

rcsodak
12-02-2005, 09:44 PM
Every pass play has pressure. But these guys have been playing QB since elementary school (possibly)... certainly through HS and College. It just becomes another play when you are on the field.
Rav, are you serious?
You don't think a player get's pumped up for a rival game, now that he's a "pro"?
Same goes with winning.

Have you never had to come through in the clutch, in something you consider yourself to be good at, and NOT get nervous?

I'd say if a player couldn't get 'up' or some butterflys flying around, then they aren't in the right profession.....or are just there for the money....... :coffee:

Ravage!!!
12-02-2005, 09:45 PM
O.k. With that said, are you acknowledging that perhaps the third down conversion problem isn't completely his fault?

If so, where does the problem lie?

COMPLETELY his fault??? No no no. Of course not! That would be unrealistic. There are several variables...everything from defenses being called, to the actual play itself, to the receivers. BUT.. in that same thought, you MUST see that Jake is the lowest in the NFL at the conversions. So although you can't say its all his fault, you MUST achknowledge that he HAS to take his SHARE of the blame. ALL offenses have to deal with the same variables.

broncos_mtnman
12-02-2005, 09:46 PM
O.k. With that said, are you acknowledging that perhaps the third down conversion problem isn't completely his fault?

If so, where does the problem lie?

I already answered that question, but you St. Jake people don't want to accept it...



Well, the St. Jake crowd won't like this, but JP is one of the main problems on third down. With all of the improvement he seems to have obtained, he has a HUGE drop off on 3rd down...

FIRST DOWN - 131 att / 91 comp (69.5) / 104.8 rating
SECOND DOWN - 97 att / 61 comp (62.9) / 93.5 rating
THIRD DOWN - 84 att / 40 comp (47.6) / 74.3 rating

When your QB completes less than half of his passes, it's hard to make alot of 1st downs.

Ravage!!!
12-02-2005, 09:51 PM
Rav, are you serious?
You don't think a player get's pumped up for a rival game, now that he's a "pro"?
Same goes with winning.

Have you never had to come through in the clutch, in something you consider yourself to be good at, and NOT get nervous?

I'd say if a player couldn't get 'up' or some butterflys flying around, then they aren't in the right profession.....or are just there for the money....... :coffee:

yes.. I'm VERY serious Rc. They get pumped up for ALL games. They get MORE pumped up for rival games. They get pumped up to play... BUT.. in the middle of the game they are PROFESSIONALS. Even when you play in H.S. ball, you get pumped up to BEAT THE CRUD out of your city rival...but in the middle of the game, everything is back down to business and running the plays against the "other team".. not the "Chiefs." You run the plays you have been practicing for for weeks/months.

Once that initial play is snapped... I'm telling you, the butterflies are gone. You have them RIGHT until that first snap is over, then BAM.... you are back into football mode. How/why? Because I KNOW what I'm doing. I've practiced it for MONTHs. I've played against professional teams before. I've played against the Chiefs before. This is a rival team, but this isn't the BIGGEST game I've played. I've been in the NFL for 9 seasons now, and know how to deal with playing in a game. If I play each and EVERY play with butterflies in my stomach... if I couldn't throw a third down pass without having butterflies... If I couldn't drop back and THROW the damned ball without being "nervous" about it, THATS when I know I was in the wrong business.

rcsodak
12-02-2005, 09:53 PM
I already answered that question, but you St. Jake people don't want to accept it...
Your little graph shows nothing, mtn, other than the fact that the plays called, the blocks missed, the passes thrown, the passes dropped, all equate to being below the 'mendoza line'.

Only you (+ 2-3 others) insist it's ONLY because of Jake.

If you would only open your eyes and see what people are saying, maybe you'd not be so grating.

People are only defending against your accusations that it's ALL Jake.

Our responses are tempered, saying that there are also other variables involved.

CameronY
12-02-2005, 09:53 PM
COMPLETELY his fault??? No no no. Of course not! That would be unrealistic. There are several variables...everything from defenses being called, to the actual play itself, to the receivers. BUT.. in that same thought, you MUST see that Jake is the lowest in the NFL at the conversions. So although you can't say its all his fault, you MUST achknowledge that he HAS to take his SHARE of the blame. ALL offenses have to deal with the same variables.

Alright, we agree that it's not all on the QB. This is important.

CameronY
12-02-2005, 09:58 PM
I already answered that question, but you St. Jake people don't want to accept it...

First of all, I am not a person who "ordained" Jake as a saint. So do not categorize me this way! I am more than willing (as my track record of posts will back up) to acknowledge that Jake has his flaws.

Secondly, and finally, your chart reveals nothing more than numbers. Are you saying that Jake is completely to blame for these numbers?

rcsodak
12-02-2005, 09:59 PM
yes.. I'm VERY serious Rc. They get pumped up for ALL games. They get MORE pumped up for rival games. They get pumped up to play... BUT.. in the middle of the game they are PROFESSIONALS. Even when you play in H.S. ball, you get pumped up to BEAT THE CRUD out of your city rival...but in the middle of the game, everything is back down to business and running the plays against the "other team".. not the "Chiefs." You run the plays you have been practicing for for weeks/months.

Once that initial play is snapped... I'm telling you, the butterflies are gone. You have them RIGHT until that first snap is over, then BAM.... you are back into football mode. How/why? Because I KNOW what I'm doing. I've practiced it for MONTHs. I've played against professional teams before. I've played against the Chiefs before. This is a rival team, but this isn't the BIGGEST game I've played. I've been in the NFL for 9 seasons now, and know how to deal with playing in a game. If I play each and EVERY play with butterflies in my stomach... if I couldn't throw a third down pass without having butterflies... If I couldn't drop back and THROW the damned ball without being "nervous" about it, THATS when I know I was in the wrong business.
Well, rav, I guess we'll disagree to a point.
I concur that, as pros, these guys practice/practice enough to where most plays ARE second nature....
BUT, that doesn't mean that needing 5 yards, on a third down, with 13 clicks left on the game clock and a divisional championship on the line doesn't make for some sweaty palms.

Remember, rav, no matter HOW long they've been in the business......these guys are still of flesh and blood.....and their pituitary glands aren't on HOLD.

Adrenaline WILL flow, whether you like it or not. ;)

CameronY
12-02-2005, 10:06 PM
yes.. I'm VERY serious Rc. They get pumped up for ALL games. They get MORE pumped up for rival games. They get pumped up to play... BUT.. in the middle of the game they are PROFESSIONALS. Even when you play in H.S. ball, you get pumped up to BEAT THE CRUD out of your city rival...but in the middle of the game, everything is back down to business and running the plays against the "other team".. not the "Chiefs." You run the plays you have been practicing for for weeks/months.

Once that initial play is snapped... I'm telling you, the butterflies are gone. You have them RIGHT until that first snap is over, then BAM.... you are back into football mode. How/why? Because I KNOW what I'm doing. I've practiced it for MONTHs. I've played against professional teams before. I've played against the Chiefs before. This is a rival team, but this isn't the BIGGEST game I've played. I've been in the NFL for 9 seasons now, and know how to deal with playing in a game. If I play each and EVERY play with butterflies in my stomach... if I couldn't throw a third down pass without having butterflies... If I couldn't drop back and THROW the damned ball without being "nervous" about it, THATS when I know I was in the wrong business.

So that I (and other thread viewers) can fully understand where you are coming from with the above rant, can you please tell us if you have played in the NFL?

broncos_mtnman
12-02-2005, 10:23 PM
Secondly, and finally, your chart reveals nothing more than numbers. Are you saying that Jake is completely to blame for these numbers?

Funny, when numbers look good for St. Jake (such as his INT streak), they are all his. This goes for his passer rating, win-loss record, etc...

Yet, when a stat gives glaring evidence that things aren't so rosey in a particular catagory (poor third down passing numbers), we have to make sure we document that not every incomplete pass is the QBs fault.

Once again, the double standard of those who will do anything to defend St. Jake rears it's ugly head.

Ravage!!!
12-02-2005, 10:27 PM
Well, rav, I guess we'll disagree to a point.
I concur that, as pros, these guys practice/practice enough to where most plays ARE second nature....
BUT, that doesn't mean that needing 5 yards, on a third down, with 13 clicks left on the game clock and a divisional championship on the line doesn't make for some sweaty palms.

Remember, rav, no matter HOW long they've been in the business......these guys are still of flesh and blood.....and their pituitary glands aren't on HOLD.

Adrenaline WILL flow, whether you like it or not. ;)

and if you'll look above, in a post BEFORE you added in.. I DID say that I believe that if you are behind in the last 2 minutes.. or on a game winning drive, I'm sure each and every pass has MORE urgentcy to it.. which of course is more stress. But I'm not talking about that. I was talking about the regualar 3rd down plays. I've already covered that.

Ravage!!!
12-02-2005, 10:30 PM
So that I (and other thread viewers) can fully understand where you are coming from with the above rant, can you please tell us if you have played in the NFL?

Please. This wasn't a rant. Thats a good question. NO, obviously I haven't played in the NFL. But I did play college football, and I know in just the college that I played in, playing the position doesn't mean you are "nervous" on each and every play. Despite if the play was first down or third down. You didn't 'try' any harder on third than you did on first. Thats exactly my point. If these guys have practiced and played through the same situations through HS, college, and 9 years into the pros... I feel very CONFIDENT that they don't experience "nervousness" every time they have to complete a freakin' third down pass.

CameronY
12-02-2005, 10:42 PM
Funny, when numbers look good for St. Jake (such as his INT streak), they are all his. This goes for his passer rating, win-loss record, etc...

Yet, when a stat gives glaring evidence that things aren't so rosey in a particular catagory (poor third down passing numbers), we have to make sure we document that not every incomplete pass is the QBs fault.

Once again, the double standard of those who will do anything to defend St. Jake rears it's ugly head.

Here you go again with your "Saint" title.

Firstly, you say "when numbers look good for "St Jake" they are all his. " I never said this! And I doubt 99% of the forum members who DO and DON'T support Jake would say they are soley attributable to him.

There you go again, stereotyping me because I don't agree with everything you say. Because I have something positive to say about him I am a "St. Jake Worshipper."

Secondly, it is you who has so persitently argued that the improved int ratings are due to the things Jake HASN'T done. In essence, your acknowledging that Jake is letting other members of the team handle the ball and make plays.

Oh, God forbid! And there's something wrong with this?

Javalon
12-02-2005, 10:43 PM
Funny, when numbers look good for St. Jake (such as his INT streak), they are all his. This goes for his passer rating, win-loss record, etc...

Yet, when a stat gives glaring evidence that things aren't so rosey in a particular catagory (poor third down passing numbers), we have to make sure we document that not every incomplete pass is the QBs fault.

Once again, the double standard of those who will do anything to defend St. Jake rears it's ugly head.
The problem is how many people see all these issues in black and white. So many people act like either Jake deserves all the credit/blame or none of it.

As usual, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Jake is not fully to blame for our 3rd down struggles but he definitely is a part of it. His non-interception streak was not entirely due to his great play but he deserves a lot of credit for it.

Stats don't tell the whole story but they do generally give a good feel for the situation. Our poor 3rd down conversion rate and Jake's 3rd down ranking definitely show that he is a part of that problem. But Jake's great passer rating for the season show he is a big part of our success.

Like most players, Jake has his good points and his bad points. But luckily his good points are outweighing the bad this season. And if he can improve his play on 3rd downs, I think those MVP whispers might even take on an inkling of validity. (:eek: That's weird to even contemplate.)

Emancipator
12-02-2005, 10:45 PM
I think you guys have had good discussions. I've run out of popcorn. :D

CameronY
12-02-2005, 10:51 PM
Please. This wasn't a rant. Thats a good question. NO, obviously I haven't played in the NFL. But I did play college football, and I know in just the college that I played in, playing the position doesn't mean you are "nervous" on each and every play. Despite if the play was first down or third down. You didn't 'try' any harder on third than you did on first. Thats exactly my point. If these guys have practiced and played through the same situations through HS, college, and 9 years into the pros... I feel very CONFIDENT that they don't experience "nervousness" every time they have to complete a freakin' third down pass.

My bad, "rant" was not an appropriate word to use. You were not ranting!

As for the "nervousness" issue, I guess we are all different.

CP's to you for my poor choice of word.

Ravage!!!
12-02-2005, 10:58 PM
My bad, "rant" was not an appropriate word to use. You were not ranting!

As for the "nervousness" issue, I guess we are all different.

CP's to you for my poor choice of word.

Its all good Bro.... thanks for the discussion!

CameronY
12-02-2005, 11:03 PM
Its all good Bro.... thanks for the discussion!

Yes, likewise!

Highway2Elway
12-03-2005, 02:08 AM
Hate to say this, but ...
I just don't think the Broncos can do much Sunday or in the postseason, for that matter. The Chiefs are way too tough this time of year. I'm too used to seeing these implosions since Davis and John left.

Frankly, I haven't seen anything to make me think they can make it out of the AFC.
If it's not KC, it's Jacksonville.
If it's not Jacksonville, it's Cincy.
If it's not Cincy, it's Pittsburgh.
If it's not Pittsburgh, it's the perfect Colts.

I'm bracing myself for defeat here. Sorry guys. :ugh:

topscribe
12-03-2005, 02:11 AM
I don't think that was worth saying in the first place.



Nonetheless, welcome to the boards. :beer:

-----

RazR
12-03-2005, 02:12 AM
A post so nice, you had to post it twice?? You shouldn't have.......... really.

Broncos are taking KC down and marching forward, my friend.



BTW, what a waste of your first 2 posts here. :sick:

slapshot726
12-03-2005, 02:25 AM
I am not sure but there is no way you are a Broncos fan. If you are you wouldnt say stuff like that. Even if it was true,which it isnt, you dont say anything bad about your team when they are winning. It is kind of like your drinking habit. You dont go around telling telling everybody that you are a drunk loser.

bronc_fan23
12-03-2005, 02:30 AM
pwn3d.........

Q-niverse
12-03-2005, 02:37 AM
Hate to say this, but ...
I just don't think the Broncos can do much Sunday or in the postseason, for that matter. The Chiefs are way too tough this time of year. I'm too used to seeing these implosions since Davis and John left.

Frankly, I haven't seen anything to make me think they can make it out of the AFC.
If it's not KC, it's Jacksonville.
If it's not Jacksonville, it's Cincy.
If it's not Cincy, it's Pittsburgh.
If it's not Pittsburgh, it's the perfect Colts.

I'm bracing myself for defeat here. Sorry guys. :ugh:

The Broncos are capable of winning without St John of Elway or Terrell Davis. Believe that. Secondly, It is possible that the Broncos might not win. That possibility exists for any team...but to not even carry hope and pride when your team is 2nd in the AFC and has a multiple game lead on the division going into the final stretch....why even be a fan? Just don't watch football until the day after the Super bowl and then sport your jersey.

And one last thing....there are 31 other teams gunning for that Super Bowl trophy. You can't jump ship if your team doesn't win. Well you can but it's just not very sincere.

DaBroncs
12-03-2005, 04:59 AM
Highway2Elway is nothing but....

an impostor.


We can beat any and all of those teams, and we will.

Dean
12-03-2005, 05:23 AM
Hate to say this, but ...
I just don't think the Broncos can do much Sunday or in the postseason, for that matter. The Chiefs are way too tough this time of year. I'm too used to seeing these implosions since Davis and John left.

Frankly, I haven't seen anything to make me think they can make it out of the AFC.
If it's not KC, it's Jacksonville.
If it's not Jacksonville, it's Cincy.
If it's not Cincy, it's Pittsburgh.
If it's not Pittsburgh, it's the perfect Colts.

I'm bracing myself for defeat here. Sorry guys. :ugh:


Thanks for sharing. It is always nice to have someone with a positive outlook around to brighten the day.

sbutk
12-03-2005, 08:38 AM
No. I'm suggesting they are professionals that have been in that situation before. IF Jake is feeling the pressure of every 3rd down pass, then I would say thats the problem of our conversion rates. Can you imagine if thats the case, how he would fold under the pressure of the BIG games?



So an Olympic skier with one downhill run left to beat the leader for the gold never falls because he's concentrating too much / too little?


(Yes, I know Olympic athletes by defninition are not professionals, but that is irrelevant to this argument.)


Athletes - professional or not - are humans, not gods, so I don't know how you can make such exclusive statements.


:confused:

sbutk
12-03-2005, 08:51 AM
So that I (and other thread viewers) can fully understand where you are coming from with the above rant, can you please tell us if you have played in the NFL?




I think he's speaking in the 4th person (I made that up, I don't think it's an actual term), adopting the persona of Jake for the purpose of arguing his point. I may be wrong, but I'd find it very hard to believe he plays in the NFL. Note that he said he's played "9 seasons now", implying he is currently active. Nothing more than rubbish, I'm willing to bet.


:coffee:

arapaho
12-03-2005, 09:06 AM
Hate to say this, but ...
I just don't think the Broncos can do much Sunday or in the postseason, for that matter. The Chiefs are way too tough this time of year. I'm too used to seeing these implosions since Davis and John left.

Frankly, I haven't seen anything to make me think they can make it out of the AFC.
If it's not KC, it's Jacksonville.
If it's not Jacksonville, it's Cincy.
If it's not Cincy, it's Pittsburgh.
If it's not Pittsburgh, it's the perfect Colts.

I'm bracing myself for defeat here. Sorry guys. :ugh:



earlier??????????? like when.... december 2nd ?

and i doubt you hated to say it ............i bet your kinda all smugg with you brilliant post :laugh:

Elway1983
12-03-2005, 09:22 AM
Not so fast my friend, I'm bracing for a blowout. Our run game is being underestimated by everyone around the league. Watch out. :beer:

PatrickdaDookie
12-03-2005, 09:49 AM
Same, I think Denver wins in a blowout. =)

BroncoBlueBlood
12-03-2005, 09:59 AM
I think H2Elway is using stinkin' thinkin', but he does have a point: this ain't going to be a blowout. Bag on the Chiefs D all you want, it ain't the same squad we faced earlier this year. They've dramatically improved on run D.

Arrowhead is tough in December, tougher than Invesco, and for our Broncs to come out with a win will be a real accomplishment.

You got to hand it KC, they've improved quite a bit. And what I wouldn't give for a class act at QB like Green rather than Plummer that doesn't feel like he really cares much at all for our city or us as fans.

All in all, KC's got the edge here. That's not being cynical. That's just the facts.

Elway1983
12-03-2005, 10:16 AM
How does anybody think they have the edge? Yeah they have homefield, but we are playing for much more. We are playing for homefield advantage. After this game we only have one more test in SD, and KC has a will have a tough time making the playoffs even if they win this game. We have the #2 rudh offense and defense and Jake is playing the way he is we definately have the edge. If we didn't, we wouldn't be favored to win. :beer:

psychobilly
12-03-2005, 10:21 AM
Hate to say this, but ...
I just don't think the Broncos can do much Sunday or in the postseason, for that matter. The Chiefs are way too tough this time of year. I'm too used to seeing these implosions since Davis and John left.

Frankly, I haven't seen anything to make me think they can make it out of the AFC.
If it's not KC, it's Jacksonville.
If it's not Jacksonville, it's Cincy.
If it's not Cincy, it's Pittsburgh.
If it's not Pittsburgh, it's the perfect Colts.

I'm bracing myself for defeat here. Sorry guys. :ugh:
Thanks for the pick me up, I needed that. I guess I don't have to waste my time watching the game. I'll take a 3 hour dump instead.

broncolitis
12-03-2005, 10:49 AM
So how bad will we beat the cheifs on Sunday?

ludo
12-03-2005, 10:51 AM
either we will lose or win by 3-10.

BroncFanIN
12-03-2005, 10:57 AM
So how bad will we beat the cheifs on Sunday?
Finally! Someone talking about WINNING this football game.

We beat them by 3-10 points. :beer:

Highway2Elway
12-03-2005, 10:59 AM
Highway2Elway is nothing but....

an impostor.


We can beat any and all of those teams, and we will.

An impostor? Are you saying I'm a robot or something? :D

Emancipator
12-03-2005, 11:02 AM
Hate to say this, but ...
I just don't think the Broncos can do much Sunday or in the postseason, for that matter. The Chiefs are way too tough this time of year. I'm too used to seeing these implosions since Davis and John left.

Frankly, I haven't seen anything to make me think they can make it out of the AFC.
If it's not KC, it's Jacksonville.
If it's not Jacksonville, it's Cincy.
If it's not Cincy, it's Pittsburgh.
If it's not Pittsburgh, it's the perfect Colts.

I'm bracing myself for defeat here. Sorry guys. :ugh:

Welcome to the boards.
That's your opinion.
Denver will win Sunday..................

Highway2Elway
12-03-2005, 11:03 AM
Thanks for the pick me up, I needed that. I guess I don't have to waste my time watching the game. I'll take a 3 hour dump instead.

Yeah. Really funny. I just found this board, signed on to chat with my fellow Denver fans in a candid way, and I get this kind of response. Did I forget to drink my orange Kool-Aid like the rest of you guys?

Den21-Bal19
12-03-2005, 11:06 AM
Vic Carucci's Burning questions for week 13:


Are the Denver Broncos ready to put some significant distance between themselves and the rest of the competitive AFC West by beating the Chiefs in Kansas City?

Yes.

The biggest story of the Broncos' offensive success has been their running game, and it should again be a factor against the Chiefs.

However, the difference-making plays are likely to come from quarterback Jake Plummer, who has enjoyed excellent pass protection. In 11 games, he has been sacked only 14 times, and generally operates with comfort and confidence in the pocket.

The Chiefs probably won't be able to generate overwhelming pressure from their defensive line, meaning the Broncos should be able to block Kansas City's front four one-on-one. As a result, they should be able to have enough extra blocking available to deal with the Chiefs' aggressive blitzing. Another plus for Denver's air attack is the fact that, with such a strong running game, the Broncos are highly effective with play-action passing. Although the Broncos don't have the deepest receiving corps, they do get a decent number of big plays from Rod Smith and Ashley Lelie. And that should continue against cornerbacks Patrick Surtain and Eric Warfield, especially if the Broncos are able to maintain their virtual air-tight protection of Plummer.

Personally, I think he's SPOT ON :D

Highway2Elway
12-03-2005, 11:09 AM
I am not sure but there is no way you are a Broncos fan. If you are you wouldnt say stuff like that. Even if it was true,which it isnt, you dont say anything bad about your team when they are winning. It is kind of like your drinking habit. You dont go around telling telling everybody that you are a drunk loser.

Actually, I have a relative who's a recovering alcoholic. And I'm sure she wouldn't appreciate that. I know I don't appreciate that.

If you don't want to pull your head out of the sand, at least show a fellow longtime Denver fan and board newbie some courtesy when he wants to be candid.


:beer:

aaronheeb
12-03-2005, 11:11 AM
yes.. I'm VERY serious Rc. They get pumped up for ALL games. They get MORE pumped up for rival games. They get pumped up to play... BUT.. in the middle of the game they are PROFESSIONALS. Even when you play in H.S. ball, you get pumped up to BEAT THE CRUD out of your city rival...but in the middle of the game, everything is back down to business and running the plays against the "other team".. not the "Chiefs." You run the plays you have been practicing for for weeks/months.

Once that initial play is snapped... I'm telling you, the butterflies are gone. You have them RIGHT until that first snap is over, then BAM.... you are back into football mode. How/why? Because I KNOW what I'm doing. I've practiced it for MONTHs. I've played against professional teams before. I've played against the Chiefs before. This is a rival team, but this isn't the BIGGEST game I've played. I've been in the NFL for 9 seasons now, and know how to deal with playing in a game. If I play each and EVERY play with butterflies in my stomach... if I couldn't throw a third down pass without having butterflies... If I couldn't drop back and THROW the damned ball without being "nervous" about it, THATS when I know I was in the wrong business.


You are right on here. A person who played sports would know this. You are nervous/pumped/anxious i would say until like the first minute or so into the game. Then it is all about execution. You almost fall into a zone. You dont hear the crowds, you just focus on what yur eyes can see. Butterflies lead to fumbles, int's and overall mismanagement. As an athlete at any level you have to be able to harness that and focus on the task at hand.

...And you dont need to be a NFL quarterback to know this.

BroncoBlueBlood
12-03-2005, 11:12 AM
As a new guy around here too (and a Denver fan that was sadly exiled to KC long ago), I too am pretty suprised by the cold response around here. Why is Den21-Bal19 the only one willing to discuss this game intelligently?

JRWIZ
12-03-2005, 11:13 AM
Always a shootout and usually the one with the ball last wins. Not like the games in DEN where the chefs usually get spanked. 3 points because of the weather.

Emancipator
12-03-2005, 11:14 AM
We won't beat them bad. Not one bit. We will only win by 14pts. Denver 34- KC 20. ;)

sbutk
12-03-2005, 11:19 AM
You dont hear the crowds



Well, we know that's not true.


:duh:



...What else ya got?

JRWIZ
12-03-2005, 11:20 AM
Hate to say this, but ...
I just don't think the Broncos can do much Sunday or in the postseason, for that matter. The Chiefs are way too tough this time of year. I'm too used to seeing these implosions since Davis and John left.

Frankly, I haven't seen anything to make me think they can make it out of the AFC.
If it's not KC, it's Jacksonville.
If it's not Jacksonville, it's Cincy.
If it's not Cincy, it's Pittsburgh.
If it's not Pittsburgh, it's the perfect Colts.

I'm bracing myself for defeat here. Sorry guys. :ugh:

You should have taken the screen name chickenlittle not anything to do with a HOF QB.

Ravage!!!
12-03-2005, 11:50 AM
Hate to say this, but ...
I just don't think the Broncos can do much Sunday or in the postseason, for that matter. The Chiefs are way too tough this time of year. I'm too used to seeing these implosions since Davis and John left.

Frankly, I haven't seen anything to make me think they can make it out of the AFC.
If it's not KC, it's Jacksonville.
If it's not Jacksonville, it's Cincy.
If it's not Cincy, it's Pittsburgh.
If it's not Pittsburgh, it's the perfect Colts.

I'm bracing myself for defeat here. Sorry guys. :ugh:

wow. DO you have any positive notes or observations to go along with all the negative? How do you enjoy the season at all if all you think its a losing proposition? Why even watch the games if you think they don't matter anyway.

There is NOTHING wrong with feeling our team is going to lose. THats ok. Thats reasonable, and that doesn't make you any less of a fan. But I have to be honest with YOU.

1) we will ALWAYS be in the AFC. Thats just the way the league is set up.
2) ANy team can be anybody, on ANY given Sunday. That goes for people beating us, and for US beating any OTHER team. If you feel that KC simply has this game wrapped up because its at Arrowhead and its December. Ok the odds are with you.

But if you realize that we have a better team than the Chiefs, than you have to see that there isjust as good a chance that we win.

If you don't feel there is any way we win the AFC West, and can't go to the playoffs. Ok. But you are going to miss a lot of good games coming down the stretch

If you feel that we can't make it past any of those teams you mentioned, again... I say you just stop watching the season, and eliminate all the misery that you are setting yourelf up for.

You know... you can only go where you are focused on. If you focus all the time on the negative, as I've seen this post do... then you will NEVER get anywhere other than negative things from life. Buck up lil Bronco fan... it doesn't take Orange kool-aid to have a more positive light than blackness.

NITROBOARD
12-03-2005, 11:56 AM
Vic Carucci's Burning questions for week 13:



Personally, I think he's SPOT ON :D

I read that article earlier too. I totally agree with him. While I don't think that Denver will blow out KC at their house, I do think we will win for the first time in five years.

To the original poster on this thread...I don't see how you can say that. Denver is different this year. With the schedule we have had we are doing fantastic in the AFC. I don't see how you can be so down on them this year. I have been skeptical to a point so far but after winning three games in eleven days and only one of them being a "should win", we are on a role. You are right in the matter that we might lose, but we have come through some tough road games this year and other than the choke in week 1 we have played very well. This Denver team has gotten better and better each week so how can you have that kind of we will lose to KC and if we don't than we will lose to Jacksonville and if we don't than we will lose to Cincy and blah, blah, blah attitude. Dude be more optomistic....life is easier that way. At least you are not a Raider fan...right?

NITROBOARD
12-03-2005, 11:58 AM
wow. DO you have any positive notes or observations to go along with all the negative? How do you enjoy the season at all if all you think its a losing proposition? Why even watch the games if you think they don't matter anyway.

There is NOTHING wrong with feeling our team is going to lose. THats ok. Thats reasonable, and that doesn't make you any less of a fan. But I have to be honest with YOU.

1) we will ALWAYS be in the AFC. Thats just the way the league is set up.
2) ANy team can be anybody, on ANY given Sunday. That goes for people beating us, and for US beating any OTHER team. If you feel that KC simply has this game wrapped up because its at Arrowhead and its December. Ok the odds are with you.

But if you realize that we have a better team than the Chiefs, than you have to see that there isjust as good a chance that we win.

If you don't feel there is any way we win the AFC West, and can't go to the playoffs. Ok. But you are going to miss a lot of good games coming down the stretch

If you feel that we can't make it past any of those teams you mentioned, again... I say you just stop watching the season, and eliminate all the misery that you are setting yourelf up for.

You know... you can only go where you are focused on. If you focus all the time on the negative, as I've seen this post do... then you will NEVER get anywhere other than negative things from life. Buck up lil Bronco fan... it doesn't take Orange kool-aid to have a more positive light than blackness.


He'd be a GREAT JETS fan this year! :cheers:

JRWIZ
12-03-2005, 12:02 PM
Every pass play has pressure. But these guys have been playing QB since elementary school (possibly)... certainly through HS and College. It just becomes another play when you are on the field.



Now I can't completely agree with the notion that it is just another play. They jut learn to handle the pressure differently.

My daugther is an All State Volleyball Player. She tells me when the game is on the line she wants the ball, while she does not love to serve then, but give her a good set and she will make the kill.

When filming the games from the floor I see a look of dread from some of the other players while walking up to take a serve.

Based on her exprience and what I seen in life, I believe the truly great atheletes regardless of sport want the ball.

Ravage!!!
12-03-2005, 12:03 PM
So an Olympic skier with one downhill run left to beat the leader for the gold never falls because he's concentrating too much / too little?


(Yes, I know Olympic athletes by defninition are not professionals, but that is irrelevant to this argument.)


Athletes - professional or not - are humans, not gods, so I don't know how you can make such exclusive statements.


:confused:

*sighs*.. Man I feel sorry for you guys that take EVERY statement to be the 'absolute' for every situation in the world. My god. Not every sentence can cover EVERY single freakin' alternative. I can come up with a situation to counter EVERYTHING.

BUt for GEneralizations sake. THat SAME skier is Nervous at the TOP of that start..but during the RUN itself, NO way. He may be PUSHING himself/herself more to get a better time, and THAT may lead to the fall. BUt to say they are feeling "nervous" during the ski run.... no. Your body goes into its zone, you are only thinking about one thing, your task at hand (hitting the turns, not taking them wide, being sure to get a good cut intot he snow... whatever). But they aren't thinking " OMG OMG OMG I have to do this " WHILE they are skiing. Have you guys ever read the book "Drawing on the left side of the brain?" Your mind can't process two things like that.

An Athletes' mind MUST focus on the tasks at hand. Nervousness is an emotion. You guys don't seem to get it. There is TIME in the brain for "nervousness" BEFORE the actual event. Say at the top of the ski run, or right before the first snap of the game. But after that, the mind goes into another train of thought, another process. DOes that mean they don't "understand" the gravity of the moment?? No. THats not what it means. It means that they don't go into the "OMG, I'm so nervous" routine that they may experience if they were to jump from an airplane for the FIRST time... because thats unknown feeling or emotion.

Players...athletes... can and will know the GRAVITY of the situation if they are having their last offensive series to win the game... or the skier making his final run... or the basketball player at the free throw line. But ... the reason players are able to function at this level, is because their mind is focused on the task at hand.

Don't make the mistake of seeing a player TRY harder in a certain situation, as being nervousness.

Ravage!!!
12-03-2005, 12:04 PM
Now I can't completely agree with the notion that it is just another play. They jut learn to handle the pressure differently.

My daugther is an All State Volleyball Player. She tells me when the game is on the line she wants the ball, while she does not love to serve then, but give her a good set and she will make the kill.

When filming the games from the floor I see a look of dread from some of the other players while walking up to take a serve.

Based on her exprience and what I seen in life, I believe the truly great atheletes regardless of sport want the ball.


EXACTLY JR... great example.

Ravage!!!
12-03-2005, 12:08 PM
Well, we know that's not true.


:duh:



...What else ya got?

THats not untrue. WHen you are down on the field playing.. your mind focused on what you have to do... the crowd noise is just..."there." He's not saying that everything is silent to the point you can hear what you WANT to hear. They don't change physics.

But that OL that can't hear the QB, doesn't hear the crowd noise... per se. His mind is focused on where he needs to go, what he needs to do, reading what THEY are doing, and trying to ignore that throbbing knee he has. The crowd is LOUD...but its not penatrating his thoughts... its just there. You don't hear it. UNTIL AFTER that play and heading back to the huddle, and while in the huddle...then on the line of scrimmage, your mind won't let you focus on the crowd. NOT when they are at the level of SUCCEEDING in the NFL.

NITROBOARD
12-03-2005, 12:11 PM
We won't beat them bad. Not one bit. We will only win by 14pts. Denver 34- KC 20. ;)


Pretty similar to my pick...Denver 37-23

Den21-Bal19
12-03-2005, 12:11 PM
I read that article earlier too. I totally agree with him. While I don't think that Denver will blow out KC at their house, I do think we will win for the first time in five years.

This one's going to go down to a single big play, a last second FG, a kick return, something like that.

The great thing for us is that we've plenty of players who so far have stepped up to make that play, the only question is who's gonna be the man this time?

Ravage!!!
12-03-2005, 12:13 PM
He'd be a GREAT JETS fan this year! :cheers:

I think thats the kind of team he needs to root for, those that we already know the "gloom" of before the start of the game!

NITROBOARD
12-03-2005, 12:13 PM
This one's going to go down to a single big play, a last second FG, a kick return, something like that.

The great thing for us is that we've plenty of players who so far have stepped up to make that play, the only question is who's gonna be the man this time?


I am sorry I said wrong earlier. I had predicted the game as a 37-23 win for Denver earlier. Don't want to make two different predictions...doh! :duh:

JRWIZ
12-03-2005, 12:15 PM
COMPLETELY his fault??? No no no. Of course not! That would be unrealistic. There are several variables...everything from defenses being called, to the actual play itself, to the receivers. BUT.. in that same thought, you MUST see that Jake is the lowest in the NFL at the conversions. So although you can't say its all his fault, you MUST achknowledge that he HAS to take his SHARE of the blame. ALL offenses have to deal with the same variables.


NO the variables are not the same. Similar but not the same. Every game plan is different, every team has different talent levels on both sides of the game. Weather is a variable. When it is cold and windy and your play the top notch team is not the same as Indy playing at home against the texans.

So it does not surprise me to see Manning on one end of the spectrum and Jake near the other end.

PM has a great Oline, bunches of receivers that are better than ours except perhaps Rod. Their RB's is as good if not better. TE comparable. They have not played near the schedule that we have yet, he leads the league and Jake does not. In this example is not all the fault of the QBs in question here.

If all teams played the same schedule in the same conditions then the variables maybe closer, but still not the same.

Den21-Bal19
12-03-2005, 12:17 PM
This is going to be tight, I'll take a last second Elam FG to win it by 3 :D

Ravage!!!
12-03-2005, 12:20 PM
NO the variables are not the same. Similar but not the same. Every game plan is different, every team has different talent levels on both sides of the game. Weather is a variable. When it is cold and windy and your play the top notch team is not the same as Indy playing at home against the texans.

So it does not surprise me to see Manning on one end of the spectrum and Jake near the other end.

PM has a great Oline, bunches of receivers that are better than ours except perhaps Rod. Their RB's is as good if not better. TE comparable. They have not played near the schedule that we have yet, he leads the league and Jake does not. In this example is not all the fault of the QBs in question here.

If all teams played the same schedule in the same conditions then the variables maybe closer, but still not the same.


Ahh. So you are saying that Jake has more to overcome than ALLLLLLL 31 QBs above him??

Den21-Bal19
12-03-2005, 12:20 PM
I am sorry I said wrong earlier. I had predicted the game as a 37-23 win for Denver earlier. Don't want to make two different predictions...doh! :duh:

I was wondering about that ;)

NITROBOARD
12-03-2005, 12:23 PM
I was wondering about that ;)


I knew somebody would catch on. :D

JRWIZ
12-03-2005, 12:28 PM
Funny, when numbers look good for St. Jake (such as his INT streak), they are all his. This goes for his passer rating, win-loss record, etc...

Yet, when a stat gives glaring evidence that things aren't so rosey in a particular catagory (poor third down passing numbers), we have to make sure we document that not every incomplete pass is the QBs fault.

Once again, the double standard of those who will do anything to defend St. Jake rears it's ugly head.


Yet you fail to acknowledge that it takes at least TWO to complete a pass. QB and receiver, not to mention the Oline and RB picking up the blitz.

Even you have to admit that Jake has cleaned up his act this year taking the sack or throwing the ball away instead of forcing a pass. Come on even you the great mtn-man can make that quantum leap of faith.

Not saying that he is a manning, just that with all the changes in learning the system, improved play @ the TE position, improved play from pretty much the start of season of the O-line and RB's. It has made his forcing the ball while not a thing of the past, less of an issue.

Will he be good enough to beat Indy and take us to the S/B? Time will tell but since he is the only QB on this team that can do it, you might want to back off a bit.

Most everyone has lighten up about their pet peeve players but you.

Even Ravage does not think he is the scum of the earth anymore.

Ravage!!!
12-03-2005, 12:32 PM
Yet you fail to acknowledge that it takes at least TWO to complete a pass. QB and receiver, not to mention the Oline and RB picking up the blitz.

Even you have to admit that Jake has cleaned up his act this year taking the sack or throwing the ball away instead of forcing a pass. Come on even you the great mtn-man can make that quantum leap of faith.

Not saying that he is a manning, just that with all the changes in learning the system, improved play @ the TE position, improved play from pretty much the start of season of the O-line and RB's. It has made his forcing the ball while not a thing of the past, less of an issue.

Will he be good enough to beat Indy and take us to the S/B? Time will tell but since he is the only QB on this team that can do it, you might want to back off a bit.

Most everyone has lighten up about their pet peeve players but you.

Even Ravage does not think he is the scum of the earth anymore.

I never thought he was the scum of the earth.. I just won't think he's as good as you do. I've said that not all the fault is his... yet.. you have YET to admit that ANY of the fault is his JR. You completely refuse to give ANY fault to any of the problems onto Jake. You continue to point out all the OTHER positions on the field, and not ONCE say "yes, Jake certainly is PART of the blame." I think thats very telling.

Ravage!!!
12-03-2005, 12:40 PM
eh.... I change my prediction every day. I can't make up my mind. I'm just glad we are within 24 hours of the freakin' game. This week is driving me NUTS!

NITROBOARD
12-03-2005, 12:41 PM
eh.... I change my prediction every day. I can't make up my mind. I'm just glad we are within 24 hours of the freakin' game. This week is driving me NUTS!


I know it seems like it has been a week and a half since we have seen the Broncs play. Oh wait it has.

JRWIZ
12-03-2005, 12:45 PM
Ahh. So you are saying that Jake has more to overcome than ALLLLLLL 31 QBs above him??


Just that all the variables are not the same. The differ week to week team to team. Over the length of the season, some average out abit except when you are comparing any one with manning.

Some of those QB have not played all year. I think you have to look at the team stats in this vein cause if an QB is out due to injury his numbers will be squewd a bit.

Look I know that we as ateam have to get better I'm and almost everone else is saying it is not all the QB's fault. It take two or more to make a reception regardless of down.

Ravage!!!
12-03-2005, 12:56 PM
Just that all the variables are not the same. The differ week to week team to team. Over the length of the season, some average out abit except when you are comparing any one with manning.

Some of those QB have not played all year. I think you have to look at the team stats in this vein cause if an QB is out due to injury his numbers will be squewd a bit.

Look I know that we as ateam have to get better I'm and almost everone else is saying it is not all the QB's fault. It take two or more to make a reception regardless of down.

So again. Its because the other QBs have some advantage or a better variable. All the other QBs have better WRs, better weather, better play calling. You know the TEAM must improve on this, but Jake doesn't.

Again JR. You refuse to admit that Jake isn't perfect, and only wish to say that the "team" is the problem. You will continue to say that its the receiver's fault before saying that you KNOW Jake needs to improve his 3rd down performance.

Don't YOU see that you are so biased, that you can't even admit that Jake has a weakness? This is where the "st. jake" nickname came about. He can do no wrong. I KNOW you have a MAJOR thing against Lelie. But you don't have a major thing against Rod and the TEs, nor MA. So there are plenty of other options. Now I feel you would simply blame it on the play calling.

Jake isn't perfect. He's havign a great season, but I think its obvious he DOES need to work on his third downs. I'm sure there are some QBs on the list that don't have enough attempts that might skew the numbers. But, they are percentages. So even if you took out all the QBs that didn't have the agreed upon "minimum"... Jake would still be at the BOTTOM of the list.

SmithOverTO
12-03-2005, 12:57 PM
Hate to say this, but ...
I just don't think the Broncos can do much Sunday or in the postseason, for that matter. The Chiefs are way too tough this time of year. I'm too used to seeing these implosions since Davis and John left.

Frankly, I haven't seen anything to make me think they can make it out of the AFC.
If it's not KC, it's Jacksonville.
If it's not Jacksonville, it's Cincy.
If it's not Cincy, it's Pittsburgh.
If it's not Pittsburgh, it's the perfect Colts.

I'm bracing myself for defeat here. Sorry guys. :ugh:
Jacksonville (20-7, in Jax may I remind you and with Leftwhich)

Cincy (Last I checked they couldnt stop the run)

Pittsburgh (Pretty evenly matched. If at Pittsburgh, well do you remember 1997? I didnt think so. If here in Denver, edge to us_

Colts (Too early too tell)

Please brace yourself, and then go sign in at the Colts forumn. I'm sure they would welcome you.

JRWIZ
12-03-2005, 01:05 PM
I never thought he was the scum of the earth.. I just won't think he's as good as you do. I've said that not all the fault is his... yet.. you have YET to admit that ANY of the fault is his JR. You completely refuse to give ANY fault to any of the problems onto Jake. You continue to point out all the OTHER positions on the field, and not ONCE say "yes, Jake certainly is PART of the blame." I think thats very telling.

You fail to read all of my posts, picking out those parts that you want to hear, see, read.

I like the kid but not to the point where I see no flaws. I certainly have stated on more than one occasion that Jake is not always the only part of the failed equation.

BTW the scum of the earth thing was tongue in cheek. Sorry you could not see that it was a shot intended for someone else.

AvsFan26
12-03-2005, 01:14 PM
I think that if we can get a good running rotation going, we can get them playing from behind early. if we pick the right plays to put the right backs in ( my football analysis isnt quite up to par with my hockey analysis so ill let you guys settle wich plays are the right plays) we can get them confused. that will open up jake for the passing game, which i see getting over 200 yards. all we have to do is get them on their heels.

AvsFan26
12-03-2005, 01:15 PM
sorry, forgot the score

Denver 35
KC 21

JRWIZ
12-03-2005, 01:16 PM
So again. Its because the other QBs have some advantage or a better variable. All the other QBs have better WRs, better weather, better play calling. You know the TEAM must improve on this, but Jake doesn't.

Again JR. You refuse to admit that Jake isn't perfect, and only wish to say that the "team" is the problem. You will continue to say that its the receiver's fault before saying that you KNOW Jake needs to improve his 3rd down performance.

Don't YOU see that you are so biased, that you can't even admit that Jake has a weakness? This is where the "st. jake" nickname came about. He can do no wrong. I KNOW you have a MAJOR thing against Lelie. But you don't have a major thing against Rod and the TEs, nor MA. So there are plenty of other options. Now I feel you would simply blame it on the play calling.

Jake isn't perfect. He's havign a great season, but I think its obvious he DOES need to work on his third downs. I'm sure there are some QBs on the list that don't have enough attempts that might skew the numbers. But, they are percentages. So even if you took out all the QBs that didn't have the agreed upon "minimum"... Jake would still be at the BOTTOM of the list.

Now if we can get mtn- man to admit he is not the scum of the earth then. Not expecting miracles, perhaps 98% of the prattle back and forth will end.

I've never ever stated that Jake is a Elway, nor manning. He has flaws, just not as glaring as a FEW seem to think.

MY comments in almost every post are Jake is not the only one in the equation or words to that effect.

He is not the only one that has brought the team to 9-2 this season. He is not the only one the caused the 2 losses. It is and always has been a team win or loss. It takes two to make a pass. Even I have admitted that ashley is not what I thought he was. While not in love with the guy, I want to see more before giving him a big contract.

Again Y'all here and see stuff on local channels that alot of us are not privy to. So a lot of us are not as knowledgeable as other s WE have to rely on stats, and what we see on game day.

Jake is no Saint, nor is he the devil some try to make him out as.

kmartin575
12-03-2005, 01:25 PM
KC 45
Denver 17

Ravage!!!
12-03-2005, 01:25 PM
You fail to read all of my posts, picking out those parts that you want to hear, see, read.

I like the kid but not to the point where I see no flaws. I certainly have stated on more than one occasion that Jake is not always the only part of the failed equation.

BTW the scum of the earth thing was tongue in cheek. Sorry you could not see that it was a shot intended for someone else.

Oh..I saw it was tongue in cheek. I didn't take offense.

But even in this post again, you say "jake is not the only failed part of the equation"... that again is almost as if refusing to say that jake is ANY failed part of the equation. Your wording is very very telling JR. Maybe its how you feel, or maybe you are afraid to admit Jake is a problem because it will be used against him in further posts. I don't know. But as of right now, I haven't ever seen you give any Blam against Jake.

EVEN in his INT in Dallas.. you were saying something about a possible "slipped from his hand"... or that Lelie should have gotten it. Even when it was obvious that Jake made the wrong read.. even after JAKE said he made the wrong read. You have completely refused to admit Jake does anything wrong.

THis quote of yours " I certainly have stated on more than one occasion that Jake is not always the only part of the failed equation. " is in NO WAY saying that Jake IS part of the failed equation. Its just another way of wording that there are others to blame.

Like I said JR. You certainly have a right to believe as you do. But I think your wording is VERY telling of exactly how you do feel. It appears that you refuse to give Jake any sole responsibility for anything. It appears you always are sure to give others the blame first. I"m sure you see flaws, but you just seem to have a hard time admitting it ;)

TXBRONC
12-03-2005, 01:30 PM
Yet you fail to acknowledge that it takes at least TWO to complete a pass. QB and receiver, not to mention the Oline and RB picking up the blitz.

Even you have to admit that Jake has cleaned up his act this year taking the sack or throwing the ball away instead of forcing a pass. Come on even you the great mtn-man can make that quantum leap of faith.

Not saying that he is a manning, just that with all the changes in learning the system, improved play @ the TE position, improved play from pretty much the start of season of the O-line and RB's. It has made his forcing the ball while not a thing of the past, less of an issue.

Will he be good enough to beat Indy and take us to the S/B? Time will tell but since he is the only QB on this team that can do it, you might want to back off a bit.

Most everyone has lighten up about their pet peeve players but you.

Even Ravage does not think he is the scum of the earth anymore.

Jr. most everyone can admit it takes two players to complete a pass. However, just about everything I have ever read from you on the subject puts the blame on the receiver, more precisely you always blame Lelie for incomplete pass and God forbid if Jake's get picked off that's got to be Lelie's fault if he was the intened receiver. Your standard reply: "Lelie must have run the wrong route." I have yet to read any comment were just maybe Jake made a bad read. Btw in the post game interview after the Dallas game, Jake said he made a bad read on that pick.

I don't see how you can say the O-line play has improved, in fact on pass protection it has been excellent for him. Last season he was the least sacked qb in the League and this year is no different he's only been sacked 14 times. TE play last year was actually better from the stand point of production. As far as blitz protection from the backs yes that there is an improvenment in that area.
Yes I agree Jake in not forcing the ball like he did last year and yet at the same time he's not afraid to chances. I have always liked that about him.

TXBRONC
12-03-2005, 01:33 PM
Oh..I saw it was tongue in cheek. I didn't take offense.

But even in this post again, you say "jake is not the only failed part of the equation"... that again is almost as if refusing to say that jake is ANY failed part of the equation. Your wording is very very telling JR. Maybe its how you feel, or maybe you are afraid to admit Jake is a problem because it will be used against him in further posts. I don't know. But as of right now, I haven't ever seen you give any Blam against Jake.

EVEN in his INT in Dallas.. you were saying something about a possible "slipped from his hand"... or that Lelie should have gotten it. Even when it was obvious that Jake made the wrong read.. even after JAKE said he made the wrong read. You have completely refused to admit Jake does anything wrong.

THis quote of yours " I certainly have stated on more than one occasion that Jake is not always the only part of the failed equation. " is in NO WAY saying that Jake IS part of the failed equation. Its just another way of wording that there are others to blame.

Like I said JR. You certainly have a right to believe as you do. But I think your wording is VERY telling of exactly how you do feel. It appears that you refuse to give Jake any sole responsibility for anything. It appears you always are sure to give others the blame first. I"m sure you see flaws, but you just seem to have a hard time admitting it ;)

Jake said in the interview following the Dallas game that he had made a bad read.

Ravage!!!
12-03-2005, 01:37 PM
Jake said in the interview following the Dallas game that he had made a bad read.

exactly............

slapshot726
12-03-2005, 01:47 PM
Actually, I have a relative who's a recovering alcoholic. And I'm sure she wouldn't appreciate that. I know I don't appreciate that.

If you don't want to pull your head out of the sand, at least show a fellow longtime Denver fan and board newbie some courtesy when he wants to be candid.


:beer:

Here is a newsflash. Everyone has a relative who is a "recovering" alcoholic. For the record I wasnt saying it towards anybody, it was just a joke. With that being said I still hate this pessimistic bull****. But whatever you are entitiled to your opinion. All I have to say is that when the Broncos win this week I will drink three beers, one for me , one for you, and one for your relative.

Cheers :beer:

JRWIZ
12-03-2005, 01:57 PM
Jr. most everyone can admit it takes two players to complete a pass. However, just about everything I have ever read from you on the subject puts the blame on the receiver, more precisely you always blame Lelie for incomplete pass and God forbid if Jake's get picked off that's got to be Lelie's fault if he was the intened receiver. Your standard reply: "Lelie must have run the wrong route." I have yet to read any comment were just maybe Jake made a bad read. Btw in the post game interview after the Dallas game, Jake said he made a bad read on that pick.

I don't see how you can say the O-line play has improved, in fact on pass protection it has been excellent for him. Last season he was the least sacked qb in the League and this year is no different he's only been sacked 14 times. TE play last year was actually better from the stand point of production. As far as blitz protection from the backs yes that there is an improvenment in that area.
Yes I agree Jake in not forcing the ball like he did last year and yet at the same time he's not afraid to chances. I have always liked that about him.

I'll answer you both I did not see said press conference about Jake saying he made a wrong read, sorry if he did, I'm wrong in my post game thoughts.

Just as some really want to blame Jake for everthing, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt absent any hard proof. Just as you might with ashley.

The O-line at the begining of the year last year was not on the same page especially where the running game was concerned.

This year all players had at least played next to each other even in spot duty in the past. Not so last year, foster to RT, lepsis to LT, both a brand new spot for them. They had a major disruption in productivity till they settled in. While he was not sacked all that much last year I suspect the pass rush turned into many of the interceptions instead of a sack last year.
***********

If Y'all will think about it more. It is not that I believe Jake is a saint, it is "it takes two to complete a pass". Whether Jake throws a bad one, long, short, in-front or behind the reciever, so do many if not all the other QB's in the league.

Rod makes the adjustments and makes most of his catches 70+% this year. Not all of the rest of the WR,TE and RB do so.

It is my contention that it is not just Jake, it is also partially the skill level of the other recevers.

Or maybe Mikey should pull Jake and put someone else in when they are not going to throw to Rod.

Tongue in cheek again on that one.

One must remember that some and very few on this forum can say anything positive about Jake. period. When it comes time to mention stats they don;t want to hear of it til they personnally find one or two that are not favorable.


Last year it was picks, pass completion% and Qb rating.

All of which Jake improved on this year, dramatically!

Now a glint of a negative on 3rd downs and the stats become important again. When Jake is doing good and someone points out stats to the doom and gloom squad they don't mean much. But God forbid Jakes numbers are good they can't be used.

Which is it stats are good or bad?

xX-Bronco-Xx
12-03-2005, 02:02 PM
Here is a newsflash. Everyone has a relative who is a "recovering" alcoholic. For the record I wasnt saying it towards anybody, it was just a joke. With that being said I still hate this pessimistic bull****. But whatever you are entitiled to your opinion. All I have to say is that when the Broncos win this week I will drink three beers, one for me , one for you, and one for your relative.

Cheers :beer:
And i will drink orange kool-aid :confused: :beer:

broncos_mtnman
12-03-2005, 02:29 PM
If Y'all will think about it more. It is not that I believe Jake is a saint, it is "it takes two to complete a pass". Whether Jake throws a bad one, long, short, in-front or behind the reciever, so do many if not all the other QB's in the league.

Rod makes the adjustments and makes most of his catches 70+% this year. Not all of the rest of the WR,TE and RB do so.


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!

You still don't get it, do you?

Using your words, Jake can throw a bad pass, but if the receiver doesn't make an adjustment to catch it, it's their fault the pass goes incomplete.

Give it up, JR. In your book, it will always be something else, or someone else.

When you "admit" St. Jake is off-target, yet you qualify your response with the receiver's lack of making an adjustment, you imply the receiver is more at fault than St. Jake.

Ravage!!!
12-03-2005, 02:31 PM
I'll answer you both I did not see said press conference about Jake saying he made a wrong read, sorry if he did, I'm wrong in my post game thoughts.

Just as some really want to blame Jake for everthing, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt absent any hard proof. Just as you might with ashley.

The O-line at the begining of the year last year was not on the same page especially where the running game was concerned.

This year all players had at least played next to each other even in spot duty in the past. Not so last year, foster to RT, lepsis to LT, both a brand new spot for them. They had a major disruption in productivity till they settled in. While he was not sacked all that much last year I suspect the pass rush turned into many of the interceptions instead of a sack last year.
***********

If Y'all will think about it more. It is not that I believe Jake is a saint, it is "it takes two to complete a pass". Whether Jake throws a bad one, long, short, in-front or behind the reciever, so do many if not all the other QB's in the league.

Rod makes the adjustments and makes most of his catches 70+% this year. Not all of the rest of the WR,TE and RB do so.

It is my contention that it is not just Jake, it is also partially the skill level of the other recevers.

Or maybe Mikey should pull Jake and put someone else in when they are not going to throw to Rod.

Tongue in cheek again on that one.

One must remember that some and very few on this forum can say anything positive about Jake. period. When it comes time to mention stats they don;t want to hear of it til they personnally find one or two that are not favorable.


Last year it was picks, pass completion% and Qb rating.

All of which Jake improved on this year, dramatically!

Now a glint of a negative on 3rd downs and the stats become important again. When Jake is doing good and someone points out stats to the doom and gloom squad they don't mean much. But God forbid Jakes numbers are good they can't be used.

Which is it stats are good or bad?

Ahhh. SO you have proclaimed yourself the defender of Jake. I don't know HOW ON EARTH you can say "One must remember that some and very few on this forum can say anything positive about Jake. period. When it comes time to mention stats they don;t want to hear of it til they personnally find one or two that are not favorable."

This to me shows you aren't reading very many posts... OR... that the very few that are more "negative" toward Jake seems to grab your attention more than the rest....OR... you are SO in favor of Jake, that anyone that says ANYTHING negative about Jake just seems to grab your attention. 99% of the people on this board say nothing but GOOD things about Jake.

The point is JR. It takes two to complete a pass, however, you wish to only achknowledge THAT fact when it comes to Jake. THe other QBs in the league have receivers to. They have coaches and plays and defenders on the field against them. But their ratios aren't as bad.

Now AGAIN Jr. We've gone over this, but you don't want to achknowledge the fact that JUST because Jake is having a good year, doesn't mean he doesn't have things to work on. Your "it takes two to complete a pass" is an obvious statement. But thats your answer to all the problems. Its clear that you are TRYING to suggest that the problems with the 3rd down conversions are MAINLY because of the receivers, and couldn't POSSIBLY be because Jake is weak here.

I'm just WAITING to see if you will EVER EVER recognize Jake's mistakes.. OR his flaws.

jletourneau
12-03-2005, 02:33 PM
I have no problem with you picking the Broncos to lose, they very well might. KC neeeeeds this game in the worst way, to save their season, and Denver hasn't won in KC in December but once in the last 15 years.

But if there was any Bronco team that could do it, it's this one with the way they've been playing.

They stop the run.

The are +14 in turnover ratio.

They are very red zone efficient.

They are one of the top two rushing teams in the league.

Jake Plummer has only thrown 4 picks.

We are already 9-2 including road wins at JAX, at OAK, and at DAL.

So if you want to predict a loss, cool, I can see a number of reasons that KC could beat us THIS week. But I don't see why you would throw out the whole season based on your prediction of one loss. We have been arguably the 2nd best team in the league this year.

We beat JAX at JAX yet to determine that we can't hang with them now, even when they don't have Leftwhich. We have played a difficult schedule all year, in the toughest division, with our NFC opponents coming from the most difficult NFC division. We are 6-1 against the two toughest divisions in football. (AFC West and NFC East)

I can see what you're saying about failure to close out the season in years past, but that also went along with losing games we should win, trap games, like the Jets or the Redskins at Invesco. The Broncos HAVE been winning those games that have plagued them in years past, AND they are winning the one's no one thinks they will.

So if they happen to lose to KC, so be it, but they still have the 2nd best record in the AFC and get to play 3 more sub .500 teams, two of which are at home.

You don't have to drink the Kool-Aid, you are welcome to be realistic about the fact that we very well might lose @ Arrowhead. BUT, we might win as well. And even if we don't, our season has been enough of a success so far to make up for that mistake.

So please, don't be so pessimistic and try to call yourself a realist or something. Because what is real is the facts, and the facts are we are 9-2, 3-2 on the road, 6-1 against the toughest divisions in football, and +14 in turnover ratio.

You know what we were the last couple of years when we folded like you say, we were roughly -9 in turnover ratio, that is a 23 possession swing. THAT is HUGE!!!

JRWIZ
12-03-2005, 02:39 PM
Ahhh. SO you have proclaimed yourself the defender of Jake. I don't know HOW ON EARTH you can say "One must remember that some and very few on this forum can say anything positive about Jake. period. When it comes time to mention stats they don;t want to hear of it til they personnally find one or two that are not favorable."

This to me shows you aren't reading very many posts... OR... that the very few that are more "negative" toward Jake seems to grab your attention more than the rest....OR... you are SO in favor of Jake, that anyone that says ANYTHING negative about Jake just seems to grab your attention. 99% of the people on this board say nothing but GOOD things about Jake.

The point is JR. It takes two to complete a pass, however, you wish to only achknowledge THAT fact when it comes to Jake. THe other QBs in the league have receivers to. They have coaches and plays and defenders on the field against them. But their ratios aren't as bad.

Now AGAIN Jr. We've gone over this, but you don't want to achknowledge the fact that JUST because Jake is having a good year, doesn't mean he doesn't have things to work on. Your "it takes two to complete a pass" is an obvious statement. But thats your answer to all the problems. Its clear that you are TRYING to suggest that the problems with the 3rd down conversions are MAINLY because of the receivers, and couldn't POSSIBLY be because Jake is weak here.

I'm just WAITING to see if you will EVER EVER recognize Jake's mistakes.. OR his flaws.


He missed a read in the DAL game threw a pick had a couple of others in weeks before that could have been picks. He has had long throws and short throws as I mentioned in the the post before this one.

The guy is not manning. Never ever said he was. I just don't go to the ends of the earth to find his faults as some do.

This team has more problems than Jake missing a few throws. It's lack of consistant play in the thrid Quarter. Inability to counter adjustments made by the other team. The prevent shell we go into when up by a couple of scores.

Can't Y'all admit that Jake is not the whole problem?

Want more from me? Wait till tomroow got a wedding to go to.

2 Minute Warning
12-03-2005, 02:42 PM
Hate to say this, but ...
I just don't think the Broncos can do much Sunday or in the postseason, for that matter. The Chiefs are way too tough this time of year. I'm too used to seeing these implosions since Davis and John left.

Frankly, I haven't seen anything to make me think they can make it out of the AFC.
If it's not KC, it's Jacksonville.
If it's not Jacksonville, it's Cincy.
If it's not Cincy, it's Pittsburgh.
If it's not Pittsburgh, it's the perfect Colts.

I'm bracing myself for defeat here. Sorry guys. :ugh:

You gotta keep the faith. ;)
I have been doing that for years. :D

Fl_playa101
12-03-2005, 02:52 PM
Hate to say this, but ...
I just don't think the Broncos can do much Sunday or in the postseason, for that matter. The Chiefs are way too tough this time of year. I'm too used to seeing these implosions since Davis and John left.

Frankly, I haven't seen anything to make me think they can make it out of the AFC.
If it's not KC, it's Jacksonville.
If it's not Jacksonville, it's Cincy.
If it's not Cincy, it's Pittsburgh.
If it's not Pittsburgh, it's the perfect Colts.

I'm bracing myself for defeat here. Sorry guys. :ugh:

fake fan you are. Go join the rest of the raiders. sheesh
BRONCOS RULE

Tony
12-03-2005, 03:00 PM
denver 28
chiefs 20

Ravage!!!
12-03-2005, 03:01 PM
fake fan you are. Go join the rest of the raiders. sheesh
BRONCOS RULE

Don't call someone a fake fan simply because they don't see everything as "going to the Super Bowl."

True.. he's definatly a very negative person, but that doesn't make him less of a fan then you.

Elway1983
12-03-2005, 03:08 PM
Don't call someone a fake fan simply because they don't see everything as "going to the Super Bowl."

True.. he's definatly a very negative person, but that doesn't make him less of a fan then you.


Most Real fans have an optimistic view of their team. For him to flaunt that we are going to lose isn't cool, even though it is his opinon. He speaks as we won't even make the playoffs.
:beer:

Ravage!!!
12-03-2005, 03:16 PM
He missed a read in the DAL game threw a pick had a couple of others in weeks before that could have been picks. He has had long throws and short throws as I mentioned in the the post before this one.

The guy is not manning. Never ever said he was. I just don't go to the ends of the earth to find his faults as some do.

This team has more problems than Jake missing a few throws. It's lack of consistant play in the thrid Quarter. Inability to counter adjustments made by the other team. The prevent shell we go into when up by a couple of scores.

Can't Y'all admit that Jake is not the whole problem?

Want more from me? Wait till tomroow got a wedding to go to.

Those are all differnt discussions, and certainly ones that have and need to be discussed. But that doesn't haven anything to do with the topic on hand.

I think I've gotten more of an understanding now. I see that you just refuse to see anything negative about Jake. That, or you just refuse to say it. No matter. I feel I've got a better understanding of you now.

KnightOLB53
12-03-2005, 03:17 PM
Denver 24 Chiefs 17.

Nomad Broncofan
12-03-2005, 03:21 PM
70-3 Denver wins, what do you think Buffs fans :P. Denver by 3 in OT.

Ravage!!!
12-03-2005, 03:23 PM
Most Real fans have an optimistic view of their team. For him to flaunt that we are going to lose isn't cool, even though it is his opinon. He speaks as we won't even make the playoffs.
:beer:

There's that word again.. REAL. So your definition of "Real Fan" would be one that sees everything positively, and doesn't see anything negative for the Broncos. Thats like saying we can't say anything negative about the players simply because they are "Bronco" players.

A fan is a fan. There are blind "positive" fans... those that simply seeing everything is great, and we are going to the Super Bowl every year. They see our players as being the bst in the league, and our entire line up are pro-bowlers.

There are fans that are blind "negative" fans. thos that simply see everything as being bleek. That we aren't as good as the better teams, and refuse to let their hopes get up...therefor dodging disappointment.

Then there are the other fans that fall into every shade of grey in between. That doesn't mean that the fans that are completely blind (either positively or negativly) are any less fans than anyone else.

REAL fans... that is such a lame word.

Q-niverse
12-03-2005, 03:29 PM
Win or lose, I just want this game behind the Broncos....although with a W is what I hope for

Peerless
12-03-2005, 03:53 PM
I do think it will be a tough game. I'm not betting on a win, but all we have to do is play "smart" and we shall be fine.

BoderVhi
12-03-2005, 04:31 PM
70-3 Denver wins, what do you think Buffs fans :P. Denver by 3 in OT.

KC - 45
Donks - 17

PR-Broncomaniac
12-03-2005, 04:57 PM
KC 45
Denver 17

Where were you at week 3 (MNF)????

From 30-10 beating in Wk. 3 with the Priest, you think your club has improved???

Who have you beat that we haven't???

Wake up and expect an upset in the hen house............Broncos 27 Chefs 13

plummer4presdnt
12-03-2005, 05:08 PM
the score is 21-20 KC until dante Hall fumbles the ball on a punt return and we return for a TD to win 27-21. :beer:

Emancipator
12-03-2005, 05:19 PM
Just win the game.

TXBRONC
12-03-2005, 05:24 PM
I'll answer you both I did not see said press conference about Jake saying he made a wrong read, sorry if he did, I'm wrong in my post game thoughts.

Just as some really want to blame Jake for everthing, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt absent any hard proof. Just as you might with ashley.

The O-line at the begining of the year last year was not on the same page especially where the running game was concerned.

This year all players had at least played next to each other even in spot duty in the past. Not so last year, foster to RT, lepsis to LT, both a brand new spot for them. They had a major disruption in productivity till they settled in. While he was not sacked all that much last year I suspect the pass rush turned into many of the interceptions instead of a sack last year.
***********

If Y'all will think about it more. It is not that I believe Jake is a saint, it is "it takes two to complete a pass". Whether Jake throws a bad one, long, short, in-front or behind the reciever, so do many if not all the other QB's in the league.

Rod makes the adjustments and makes most of his catches 70+% this year. Not all of the rest of the WR,TE and RB do so.

It is my contention that it is not just Jake, it is also partially the skill level of the other recevers.

Or maybe Mikey should pull Jake and put someone else in when they are not going to throw to Rod.

Tongue in cheek again on that one.

One must remember that some and very few on this forum can say anything positive about Jake. period. When it comes time to mention stats they don;t want to hear of it til they personnally find one or two that are not favorable.


Last year it was picks, pass completion% and Qb rating.

All of which Jake improved on this year, dramatically!

Now a glint of a negative on 3rd downs and the stats become important again. When Jake is doing good and someone points out stats to the doom and gloom squad they don't mean much. But God forbid Jakes numbers are good they can't be used.

Which is it stats are good or bad?

Good grief how many times do you need to be reminded that the vast majority of Rod's routes are the short to intermediate routes. Those are high precentage throws. Jake should be completing more of them and that he has done. Jake can throw the long ball but he's not overly accurate with it and I know I have seen Ashely and other receivers make adjustments on those throws. Also when they do it allows the defender to catch up to them bring them down right away.

Javalon
12-03-2005, 05:52 PM
Good grief how many times do you need to be reminded that the vast majority of Rod's routes are the short to intermediate routes. Those are high precentage throws. Jake should be completing more of them and that he has done. Jake can throw the long ball but he not overly accurate with it and I know I have seen Ashely and other receivers make adjustments on those throws. Also when they do it allows the defender to catch up to them bring them down right away.
Short pass = High completion percentage

Medium pass = Moderate completion percentage

Deep pass = Low completion percentage


Makes sense to me. But hopefully we aren't throwing too many deep passes on third downs. So, that probably doesn't explain why Jake's third down performance ranks at the bottom of the league.

Again, Jake is playing great overall but the points brought up in this thread so far definitely seems to show that Jake needs to improve his play on third downs. That is obviously not the only factor, but it is an important one.

Come on, Jake. If you get over that 3rd down hurdle, I'll bet the Broncos get over that playoff hurdle. :beer:

TXBRONC
12-03-2005, 06:00 PM
Short pass = High completion percentage

Medium pass = Moderate completion percentage

Deep pass = Low completion percentage


Makes sense to me. But hopefully we aren't throwing too many deep passes on third downs. So, that probably doesn't explain why Jake's third down performance ranks at the bottom of the league.

Again, Jake is playing great overall but the points brought up in this thread so far definitely seems to show that Jake needs to improve his play on third downs. That is obviously not the only factor, but it is an important one.

Come on, Jake. If you get over that 3rd down hurdle, I'll bet the Broncos get over that playoff hurdle. :beer:

From what I recall we're not taking that many shots down field anyway. I admit I don't if they're coming on third down.

Totally agree Jake has been playing great overall but there are areas he needs to improve. If he gets over the 3rd down hurdle I'm certain that will go along way in getting the Broncos over the playoff hurdle.

NITROBOARD
12-03-2005, 06:49 PM
Most Real fans have an optimistic view of their team. For him to flaunt that we are going to lose isn't cool, even though it is his opinon. He speaks as we won't even make the playoffs.
:beer:

Hey I live down here in AZ after growing up in Ft. Collins, Colorado. I have went from seeing the upmost fan support in Colorado to the worst venue in the league. That said, it simply amazes me that fans in AZ are as die hard as they are. Every year they talk about a playoff push or they simply support their team and HOPE they make a playoff push. The Cardinal almost every year don't break .500 and they are relentless in their support from fans. The fans may not even be rooting for a playoff push and are happy with a few entertaining games. You want some real fans....move to AZ a observe fans of a team that never makes a playoff push (one playoff win in 50 years). Do you consider them "REAL" fans? I sure do.,

LoyalSoldier
12-03-2005, 06:54 PM
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!

You still don't get it, do you?

Using your words, Jake can throw a bad pass, but if the receiver doesn't make an adjustment to catch it, it's their fault the pass goes incomplete.

Give it up, JR. In your book, it will always be something else, or someone else.

When you "admit" St. Jake is off-target, yet you qualify your response with the receiver's lack of making an adjustment, you imply the receiver is more at fault than St. Jake.

Yet you always seem to imply that it is always Jakes fault. You seem to be on the other extreme of what others think on this board. At least that I what I get from most of your posts.

IMO a bad pass is one part screw up on the QB and one part screw up by the reciever.

If a QB has to jam a ball into coverage it is both the QB's and WR's fault. The WR didn't get open enough to give his QB a chance and the QB made the bad choice of throwing it into coverage. There are times where one or the other is going to screw up and that is when they have to adjust for each other.

Jake has screwed up and I'll be the first to admit it, but everyone else has had their fair share of screw ups as well. Not all of the screw ups were Jake's fault, but not all of them were the recievers either.

Ravage!!!
12-03-2005, 07:07 PM
Yet you always seem to imply that it is always Jakes fault. You seem to be on the other extreme of what others think on this board. At least that I what I get from most of your posts.

IMO a bad pass is one part screw up on the QB and one part screw up by the reciever.

If a QB has to jam a ball into coverage it is both the QB's and WR's fault. The WR didn't get open enough to give his QB a chance and the QB made the bad choice of throwing it into coverage. There are times where one or the other is going to screw up and that is when they have to adjust for each other.

Jake has screwed up and I'll be the first to admit it, but everyone else has had their fair share of screw ups as well. Not all of the screw ups were Jake's fault, but not all of them were the recievers either.

No. I have to disagree with this. I don't think its always a two part mistake on ALL plays. You can't blame the receiver for "not getting seperation." What if the QB didn't sell the play action, thus the CB had a jump on the short route? What if the defender simply read the play from watching game films. What if the right defense just happened to be called at the right time? QBs don't need wide open receivers.

Also, if the pass is bad, how is that the receivers fault?

I think we all know that not everything can be blamed on ONE person. No one is saying that. The SIMPLE point was that Jake is at the BOTTOM of the list on third downs. We can try and point out a hundred different reasons why. DOesn't matter. Point is, apparently Jake (and the team) need to work on this. Its not the TEAM that is at the bottom of the list for third down conversions... only the passing third down attempts. Does that mean its all Jake's fault? No. But I would say that Jake would be a point to start.

tnedator
12-03-2005, 07:12 PM
Hate to say this, but ...
I just don't think the Broncos can do much Sunday or in the postseason, for that matter. The Chiefs are way too tough this time of year. I'm too used to seeing these implosions since Davis and John left.

Frankly, I haven't seen anything to make me think they can make it out of the AFC.
If it's not KC, it's Jacksonville.
If it's not Jacksonville, it's Cincy.
If it's not Cincy, it's Pittsburgh.
If it's not Pittsburgh, it's the perfect Colts.

I'm bracing myself for defeat here. Sorry guys. :ugh:

Well, depending on how old a Bronco fan you are, Bronco fans have been preaching doomsday well before Davis was even in the NFL. Prior to the last super bowl loss ('89 I believe) the talk on the Denver talk radio (that used to be dominated by Bronco talk almost 24/7) was how fans hoped Denver would lose in the playoffs so they wouldn't have to go through another SB loss.

Then, in the early '90's, ppl were trying to run Elway out of town and criticizing Reeves and Phillips for not finding his replacement. It wasn't until a couple years into Shanahan's rein that anyone started to have any Bronco-faith, but that was dashed by Mark Bruenell (spelling?) and the upset in the second round of the playoffs in '95/'96 (the season before the first SB win).

Bronco fandom and doomsday go hand in hand and have for years.

TXBRONC
12-03-2005, 07:14 PM
Yet you always seem to imply that it is always Jakes fault. You seem to be on the other extreme of what others think on this board. At least that I what I get from most of your posts.

IMO a bad pass is one part screw up on the QB and one part screw up by the reciever.

If a QB has to jam a ball into coverage it is both the QB's and WR's fault. The WR didn't get open enough to give his QB a chance and the QB made the bad choice of throwing it into coverage. There are times where one or the other is going to screw up and that is when they have to adjust for each other.

Jake has screwed up and I'll be the first to admit it, but everyone else has had their fair share of screw ups as well. Not all of the screw ups were Jake's fault, but not all of them were the recievers either.

If a qb has that tight of window he shouldn't be trying jam the ball inbetween to defenders unless he has cannon like John Elway had.

NITROBOARD
12-03-2005, 07:21 PM
Well, depending on how old a Bronco fan you are, Bronco fans have been preaching doomsday well before Davis was even in the NFL. Prior to the last super bowl loss ('89 I believe) the talk on the Denver talk radio (that used to be dominated by Bronco talk almost 24/7) was how fans hoped Denver would lose in the playoffs so they wouldn't have to go through another SB loss.

Then, in the early '90's, ppl were trying to run Elway out of town and criticizing Reeves and Phillips for not finding his replacement. It wasn't until a couple years into Shanahan's rein that anyone started to have any Bronco-faith, but that was dashed by Mark Bruenell (spelling?) and the upset in the second round of the playoffs in '95/'96 (the season before the first SB win).

Bronco fandom and doomsday go hand in hand and have for years.

I was a little young to remember in the mid 80's or before but I do remember the late 80's and the 90's. It was dreadful listening to the media. But even in more recent times...how many football shows and threads on these boards were saying that Denver wanted to run Shanny out with his drafting and not winning a playoff game in however many years. I was sick to my stomach even listening to that stuff. Replace Shanny with who and who said he was overrated...it surely wasn't his boss, Pat Bowlen. I got sick of it pretty recently too...like last summer.

"Why did the Broncos pick up the dline of the 30th ranked run defense last year?"
"The Mastermind might not be the Mastermind anymore."
"We haven't won a playoff game in six years"

Remember all that crap talk?
Hey tnadator...remember that talk for those younger people that probably don't? Luckily Shanny and Pat Bowlen don't care what the public think. There are only two teams every year that get to the big game. We are lucky we have a team that usually at least contends every year.

GO BRONCOS!!!!

NITROBOARD
12-03-2005, 07:31 PM
At least we aren't trying to play 74 year old Vinny Testaverde or a waste of a first round pick (Alex Smith) or Aaron Brooks or well....you get the idea.

I would have a QB who hasn't been making mistakes on third downs versus a QB that has no arm left or a QB that needs about three or four years to grow or a dumb QB make a mistake and give the other team points on OUR third downs.

psychobilly
12-03-2005, 07:38 PM
Yeah. Really funny. I just found this board, signed on to chat with my fellow Denver fans in a candid way, and I get this kind of response. Did I forget to drink my orange Kool-Aid like the rest of you guys?
It has been said that it is good to have an atheist in the congregation. Actually I do respect your opinion, but I don't happen to agree with it.

Ravage!!!
12-03-2005, 07:38 PM
At least we aren't trying to play 74 year old Vinny Testaverde or a waste of a first round pick (Alex Smith) or Aaron Brooks or well....you get the idea.

I would have a QB who hasn't been making mistakes on third downs versus a QB that has no arm left or a QB that needs about three or four years to grow or a dumb QB make a mistake and give the other team points on OUR third downs.

Oh.. you just opened a WHOLE can of worms with this one.

NITROBOARD
12-03-2005, 07:43 PM
Oh.. you just opened a WHOLE can of worms with this one.

I thought it probably would :D

rcsodak
12-03-2005, 07:49 PM
Actually, I have a relative who's a recovering alcoholic. And I'm sure she wouldn't appreciate that. I know I don't appreciate that.

If you don't want to pull your head out of the sand, at least show a fellow longtime Denver fan and board newbie some courtesy when he wants to be candid.


:beer:
Even if that's true, who cares? Your first day on the boards and we're supposed to feel sorry for your cousin?:rolleyes:

It's not like she's dieing of brain cancer.........



....or is she? :eek:

rcsodak
12-03-2005, 07:52 PM
As a new guy around here too (and a Denver fan that was sadly exiled to KC long ago), I too am pretty suprised by the cold response around here. Why is Den21-Bal19 the only one willing to discuss this game intelligently?
Maybe ya'll should sit around in Newbie Land for awhile, and learn HOW to name your threads, and HOW you should phrase your posts, IF you want "candid" opinions from the forum.

Trolls are a dime-a-dozen, bashing the team, players, coaches, etc......

Prove you're not one and you'll earn some meddle.....

16milehigh87
12-03-2005, 07:54 PM
Thats a whole lot of "if it's not". Just pick one team not all of them. I think our toughest game will be Seattle and oh yeah my Superbowl prediction will be Denver 24- Seattle 17

So.CalBRONCOFAN
12-03-2005, 07:58 PM
Hate to say this, but ...
I just don't think the Broncos can do much Sunday or in the postseason, for that matter. The Chiefs are way too tough this time of year. I'm too used to seeing these implosions since Davis and John left.

Frankly, I haven't seen anything to make me think they can make it out of the AFC.
If it's not KC, it's Jacksonville.
If it's not Jacksonville, it's Cincy.
If it's not Cincy, it's Pittsburgh.
If it's not Pittsburgh, it's the perfect Colts.

I'm bracing myself for defeat here. Sorry guys. :ugh:

He's a KC fan, this thread has no bearing on this site.

ABQOrangenBlue
12-03-2005, 08:16 PM
Hate to say this, but ...
I just don't think the Broncos can do much Sunday or in the postseason, for that matter. The Chiefs are way too tough this time of year. I'm too used to seeing these implosions since Davis and John left.

Frankly, I haven't seen anything to make me think they can make it out of the AFC.
If it's not KC, it's Jacksonville.
If it's not Jacksonville, it's Cincy.
If it's not Cincy, it's Pittsburgh.
If it's not Pittsburgh, it's the perfect Colts.

I'm bracing myself for defeat here. Sorry guys. :ugh:

So, you're saying that a 30-10 victory at home = a loss in KC, the X-factor being that the game is at Arrowhead? Sorry, don't buy it. The fact remains the the Broncos are a better team than KC. If they play to their potential (which is what they have been doing all year save Miami), they will be victors... :beer:

sbutk
12-03-2005, 08:54 PM
*sighs*.. Man I feel sorry for you guys that take EVERY statement to be the 'absolute' for every situation in the world. My god. Not every sentence can cover EVERY single freakin' alternative. I can come up with a situation to counter EVERYTHING.

BUt for GEneralizations sake. THat SAME skier is Nervous at the TOP of that start..but during the RUN itself, NO way. He may be PUSHING himself/herself more to get a better time, and THAT may lead to the fall. BUt to say they are feeling "nervous" during the ski run.... no. Your body goes into its zone, you are only thinking about one thing, your task at hand (hitting the turns, not taking them wide, being sure to get a good cut intot he snow... whatever). But they aren't thinking " OMG OMG OMG I have to do this " WHILE they are skiing. Have you guys ever read the book "Drawing on the left side of the brain?" Your mind can't process two things like that.

An Athletes' mind MUST focus on the tasks at hand. Nervousness is an emotion. You guys don't seem to get it. There is TIME in the brain for "nervousness" BEFORE the actual event. Say at the top of the ski run, or right before the first snap of the game. But after that, the mind goes into another train of thought, another process. DOes that mean they don't "understand" the gravity of the moment?? No. THats not what it means. It means that they don't go into the "OMG, I'm so nervous" routine that they may experience if they were to jump from an airplane for the FIRST time... because thats unknown feeling or emotion.

Players...athletes... can and will know the GRAVITY of the situation if they are having their last offensive series to win the game... or the skier making his final run... or the basketball player at the free throw line. But ... the reason players are able to function at this level, is because their mind is focused on the task at hand.

Don't make the mistake of seeing a player TRY harder in a certain situation, as being nervousness.



OK...

If I'm not mistaken, I was the first one to raise the point of a low 3rd down percentage possibly hinging on 'psychological' effects.

Yet I don't believe I ever mentioned the guy (or his receivers) being being nervous.

There is a difference, don't you agree?

DaBroncs
12-03-2005, 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by DaBroncs

Highway2Elway is nothing but....

an impostor.


We can beat any and all of those teams, and we will.


An impostor? Are you saying I'm a robot or something? :D

2-3 sites for you highway man:

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/impostor

the chefs site or the dolts site.

sbutk
12-03-2005, 09:02 PM
THats not untrue. WHen you are down on the field playing.. your mind focused on what you have to do... the crowd noise is just..."there." He's not saying that everything is silent to the point you can hear what you WANT to hear. They don't change physics.

But that OL that can't hear the QB, doesn't hear the crowd noise... per se. His mind is focused on where he needs to go, what he needs to do, reading what THEY are doing, and trying to ignore that throbbing knee he has. The crowd is LOUD...but its not penatrating his thoughts... its just there. You don't hear it. UNTIL AFTER that play and heading back to the huddle, and while in the huddle...then on the line of scrimmage, your mind won't let you focus on the crowd. NOT when they are at the level of SUCCEEDING in the NFL.



What? Crowd noise is never a factor for the OL in hearing the snap count ...leading to false start penalties and delays of game?

Why not, and from whence are you speaking like you have the experience of playing in a stadium filled to capacity with hostile fans, such as the RCA dome?

I'm simply curious.

NITROBOARD
12-03-2005, 09:26 PM
So, you're saying that a 30-10 victory at home = a loss in KC, the X-factor being that the game is at Arrowhead? Sorry, don't buy it. The fact remains the the Broncos are a better team than KC. If they play to their potential (which is what they have been doing all year save Miami), they will be victors... :beer:

Beings this IS a different Denver team it is entirely possible that we beat them this year. Didn't we blow them out at the beginning of last year and then they blew us out and ran up the score at the end of the game in the second meeting. Denver says they forget the past but they won't forget the 42-17 thrashing we got from them late last year. Again, this team IS different!

rcsodak
12-03-2005, 09:38 PM
THats not untrue. WHen you are down on the field playing.. your mind focused on what you have to do... the crowd noise is just..."there." He's not saying that everything is silent to the point you can hear what you WANT to hear. They don't change physics.

But that OL that can't hear the QB, doesn't hear the crowd noise... per se. His mind is focused on where he needs to go, what he needs to do, reading what THEY are doing, and trying to ignore that throbbing knee he has. The crowd is LOUD...but its not penatrating his thoughts... its just there. You don't hear it. UNTIL AFTER that play and heading back to the huddle, and while in the huddle...then on the line of scrimmage, your mind won't let you focus on the crowd. NOT when they are at the level of SUCCEEDING in the NFL.
So it's the "throbbing knee" that causes them to motion BEFORE the snap because they can't hear the cadence??
:confused:

tnedator
12-03-2005, 09:38 PM
Hey tnadator...remember that talk for those younger people that probably don't? Luckily Shanny and Pat Bowlen don't care what the public think. There are only two teams every year that get to the big game. We are lucky we have a team that usually at least contends every year.

GO BRONCOS!!!!

Yea, some Denver fans loose site of some things:

~Denver is something like second in Super Bowl appearences all time.

~Denver hasn't had a top ten pick in the Shanahan era, because he always fields a team that finishes in the top 2/3 of the league.

~Even before Shanny, how many loosing records have the Broncos had in the last 20 years? 2? 3? 4? Not many. Other teams like the Rams, Patriots, Tampa have gone from worst to first (or close), but they were horrible teams for years in a row that wound up with top 5 picks in several drafts in a row. When was the last time Denver had a top 5 draft pick, forget multiple ones over a several year period.

~While teams like San Fran and Dallas had Super Bowl streaks (like Denver in '98/'99), they then paid for those wins by having 5+ years of sub .500 ball that allowed them to restock (SF obviously hasn't restocked yet and is still paying for its SB trips).

~Denver fans in the last 20 years have no clue what Detroit fans or Arizonia fans or Houston fans are going through. Yes, it might be dissapointing when the Broncos go to the playoffs and get blown out by the Colts, but imagine knowing by week 9 or 10 (or earlier) that you have no chance of making the playoffs? That the only thing you have to hope for is a 6 game loosing streak to get your team the number one pick.

Basically, Denver is one of the most solid fanchises, period, end of story and therefore its fans are spoiled and don't appreciate how good they have it!!

NITROBOARD
12-03-2005, 09:43 PM
I have always thought that but when I moved to AZ I had no idea what it was like to live by a losing team. It is weird when I can go to a Broncos at AZ game and get the whole corner of the stadium that I am in to start cheering Here We Go Broncos, Here We Go...boom, boom everytime the visiting team was in the red zone. Poor Cardinal fans.... :D

rcsodak
12-03-2005, 09:45 PM
I never thought he was the scum of the earth.. I just won't think he's as good as you do. I've said that not all the fault is his... yet.. you have YET to admit that ANY of the fault is his JR. You completely refuse to give ANY fault to any of the problems onto Jake. You continue to point out all the OTHER positions on the field, and not ONCE say "yes, Jake certainly is PART of the blame." I think thats very telling.
I think that's what's causing the rucus between us and you/mtn.....

You tend to throw Jakes name into any/everything that is wrong about the team....

...whereas, the rest of us simply say there's40+ other players that are also partly to blame.

I guess when push comes to shove, we WILL back up the starting qb, when he's part of the solution.
You two throw ENOUGH faults at Jake for the all of us, thank you.....

rcsodak
12-03-2005, 09:54 PM
THis quote of yours " I certainly have stated on more than one occasion that Jake is not always the only part of the failed equation. " is in NO WAY saying that Jake IS part of the failed equation. Its just another way of wording that there are others to blame.

Like I said JR. You certainly have a right to believe as you do. But I think your wording is VERY telling of exactly how you do feel. It appears that you refuse to give Jake any sole responsibility for anything. It appears you always are sure to give others the blame first. I"m sure you see flaws, but you just seem to have a hard time admitting it ;)
You lost me here, rav....

so, let me get this straight.

If a person says something to the effect that a Part of a team is not the ONLY part of a failure, that that person is denying that he is anypart of it?

I personally believe that until a poster actually comes out and proclaims Jake as nothing more than an "average qb", as you have, and that he "has some glaring weaknesses", as you have, that he'll always be considered a "St. Jake worshipper".

Problem is........you'll never hear it.

Seamus
12-03-2005, 09:56 PM
So, you're saying that a 30-10 victory at home = a loss in KC, the X-factor being that the game is at Arrowhead? Sorry, don't buy it. The fact remains the the Broncos are a better team than KC. If they play to their potential (which is what they have been doing all year save Miami), they will be victors... :beer:
Couldn't sum it up any better! When Denver plays to their capability, they will win.

My concern last time when KC and Den met was the WR coverage with the rookies, and just because I am biased and dislike Kennison! Typically when Denver plays well agianst KC, we neutralize Tony Gonzales, and do a good job of stopping or limiting the run inefective (however last time KC & Den met, Denver was up 17 at the quarter and KC couldn't afford to run too much). After the Dallas game, I don't see a reason why this would change.
Offensivly, again, after watching the Dallas game in their house, Denver had some good long drives against a much better defense than KC, on national TV, on a team that normally wins that game, and they have had 10 days to rest.

Just like the Boston Redsox comeback from the celler they were in to win the world series, all the odds were against them, actually they should never have won since it never had been done before. Any given Sunday, that is why they play the game, except this time Denver has a better team statistically and more time to prepare. Should be a good game!

rcsodak
12-03-2005, 09:59 PM
Jr. most everyone can admit it takes two players to complete a pass. However, just about everything I have ever read from you on the subject puts the blame on the receiver, more precisely you always blame Lelie for incomplete pass and God forbid if Jake's get picked off that's got to be Lelie's fault if he was the intened receiver. Your standard reply: "Lelie must have run the wrong route." I have yet to read any comment were just maybe Jake made a bad read. Btw in the post game interview after the Dallas game, Jake said he made a bad read on that pick.

Not meaning to pick on you, rav, but you keep eluding to things WRONGLY, which is making our debates more than they need to be.

In the above example, you said Jr states "Lelie must have run the wrong route".
But ACTUALLY, to jr's credit, he's being much more fair in his answers.
He (and others) have said "HOW DO YOU KNOW LELIE RAN THE CORRECT ROUTE?"

Big difference between what he's SAYING and what you're either 'reading' or comprehending.

Am I making any sense? :huh:

broncos_mtnman
12-03-2005, 10:15 PM
Am I making any sense? :huh:

No, but neither does JR.

NITROBOARD
12-03-2005, 10:24 PM
Remember, **** Virmeal said that he was lucky to survive that game against us earlier in the season. Think Green will survive this time around?

Elway
12-03-2005, 10:41 PM
Well it is here, the rematch.

A chance to go 3 games up on KC with a win.

We have had some tough games in KC before, but hopefully with the rest we are more than ready for them. We have a stronger team going in there and I hope they kick butt and take names.

As always we ask that regardless of a win or loss.

Everyone follows the coc, watches the language they post here, do not go around the filters, and do not attack other posters.

Thank you.

AZ Snake Fan
12-03-2005, 10:42 PM
No, but neither does JR.



--- "........criticism, criticism, criticism. They are usually the weak-hearted." ----

--- on field quote by Coach Bobby Bowden, 12/03/2005 after winning ACC title game despite coming off three successive losses ---

Reidman
12-03-2005, 10:43 PM
GO BRONCOS!!

Let's kick some arse!!

Emancipator
12-03-2005, 10:47 PM
The BRONCOS will win 34-20



Good to be hear with you Elway and Reid.

Seamus
12-03-2005, 10:48 PM
Wow, we are looking at about 15 hours till game time!

The win in Dallas on the road, prime time against a good defense, with sustained drives after overcoming some gifts (fumble on the 6 yard line), looks to be a great matchup with a Denver win against KC.
Bring it on and lets knock them out of the post season! :beer:

broncos_mtnman
12-03-2005, 10:48 PM
--- "........criticism, criticism, criticism. They are usually the weak-hearted." ----

--- on field quote by Coach Bobby Bowden, 12/03/2005 after winning ACC title game despite coming off three successive losses ---

Uh, OK? :confused:

Reidman
12-03-2005, 10:49 PM
Hey all.

A close one, huh E!....?

I predict a nail-biting, jaw-dropping, edge of your seat finish!

Reidman
12-03-2005, 10:50 PM
Seems like just yesterday we were beating Dallas in OT.

A much anticipated match-up with these two teams I must say.
Possibly the game of the year.....

Emancipator
12-03-2005, 10:51 PM
Oh it will be a close game. A very close ;) game.
Denver pulls it out 34-20.

Emancipator
12-03-2005, 10:52 PM
The Broncos are rested and they need to exert some of that bottled up energy upon the Chefs.

Reidman
12-03-2005, 10:52 PM
As always we ask that regardless of a win or loss.

Everyone follows the coc, watched the language the post here, do not go around the filters, and do not attack other posters.

Thank you.
I have a feeling this is going to be very hard for some in this game Elway.
None-the-less, there is still a CoC to uphold.

Seamus
12-03-2005, 10:54 PM
A close game would be Ok, Just hope Denver doesn't blow it out like the last game in the first quarter 17-0. :D

Emancipator
12-03-2005, 10:57 PM
A close game would be Ok, Just hope Denver doesn't blow it out like the last game in the first quarter 17-0. :D

Nice. It wouldn't hurt my feelings not one bit.

Emancipator
12-03-2005, 10:59 PM
The one thing that has my attention is Arrowhead's ability to affect the game. The 12th man can keep KC in this game. That sea of red is something else. I have respect for the way they cheer for their team at home.

LoyalSoldier
12-03-2005, 11:00 PM
No. I have to disagree with this. I don't think its always a two part mistake on ALL plays. You can't blame the receiver for "not getting seperation." What if the QB didn't sell the play action, thus the CB had a jump on the short route? What if the defender simply read the play from watching game films. What if the right defense just happened to be called at the right time? QBs don't need wide open receivers.

Ok, but what if it was a 3+ step drop on an empty backfield and no tricks. At that point is it not the recievers job to get open? If the recievers can't get open the QB can't go anywhere with the ball.


Also, if the pass is bad, how is that the receivers fault?

I guess you would have to define a bad pass in this case. I wasn't very clear.

A QB is never going to have perfect accuacy. Even Manning had trouble hitting the rings at the probowl. A bad pass can still be caught unless it is so bad that the fans have a chance at it. If the pass is in the zone of the reciever it can be caught, but the reciever has to do his part of the job.

CameronY
12-03-2005, 11:15 PM
QBs don't need wide open receivers.

Also, if the pass is bad, how is that the receivers fault?

I think we all know that not everything can be blamed on ONE person. No one is saying that. The SIMPLE point was that Jake is at the BOTTOM of the list on third downs. We can try and point out a hundred different reasons why. DOesn't matter. Point is, apparently Jake (and the team) need to work on this. Its not the TEAM that is at the bottom of the list for third down conversions... only the passing third down attempts. Does that mean its all Jake's fault? No. But I would say that Jake would be a point to start.

Well, what I'm gathering from your above quote is that Jake needs to be able to do something when he doesn't have open receivers.

I agreee, it would be nice if Jake could run it up through a hole a bit more or something.

I think it would be more accurate to say that "SUPERBOWL CALIBER QB's dont need open receivers."

Ravage!!!
12-03-2005, 11:15 PM
Ok, but what if it was a 3+ step drop on an empty backfield and no tricks. At that point is it not the recievers job to get open? If the recievers can't get open the QB can't go anywhere with the ball.



I guess you would have to define a bad pass in this case. I wasn't very clear.

A QB is never going to have perfect accuacy. Even Manning had trouble hitting the rings at the probowl. A bad pass can still be caught unless it is so bad that the fans have a chance at it. If the pass is in the zone of the reciever it can be caught, but the reciever has to do his part of the job.


Jeez. Again. Here we go with me having to type of a 10 page paragraph so that I cover EVERY freakin' situation. If the QB takes a three step drop, and the play is SUPPOSED to go to that receiver, whether it be a slant or a fade...then most likely the QB is going to read and make the pass. If the defender LOOKs to be playing on the outside or lined straight up, the receiver is going to make the inside slant..if he lines up on the inside shade.. the receiver is going to run the fade. If its a timing thing, the QB is going to throw it to the appropriate read. If the Defense either lines up to protect against the called play, the the QB won't throw the ball. If the QB doesn't have a choice then, he'll either take the damned sack, throw it away or throw it away. Is it the receirs job to get open??? No more so than it is the defenders job to NOT let the receiver get open. SO I don't understand what that has to do with anything.

I don't know what you want me to say. Are there TIMES when the receiver doesn't get away from the defensive back.. OF COURSE.. jeeeezus. Did I say that its NEVER the receivers fault?? You people are SOOOOO anxious to defend, when its not even needed, that you are pointing out ridiculous questions.

A BAD pass is one where the receiver can't get to. I didn't ask if the pass was "just off target".. I know the difference between a "perfect" pass and a BAD pass. A bad pass is one OVER the head... or IN the dirt. I don't know how you can blame THAT on the receiver...but I'm sure someone will ask me another "what if" question to make me explain it. I'm sure someone will make the point that the receiver should have read the short hop, came back to the QB and dived forward.

I'm not going to cover Each and every single situation and then give a detailed explanation as to each variable to that situation. There is always an "exception to the rule." ALways.

LoyalSoldier
12-03-2005, 11:20 PM
Jeez. Again. Here we go with me having to type of a 10 page paragraph so that I cover EVERY freakin' situation. If the QB takes a three step drop, and the play is SUPPOSED to go to that receiver, whether it be a slant or a fade...then most likely the QB is going to read and make the pass. If the defender LOOKs to be playing on the outside or lined straight up, the receiver is going to make the inside slant..if he lines up on the inside shade.. the receiver is going to run the fade. If its a timing thing, the QB is going to throw it to the appropriate read. If the Defense either lines up to protect against the called play, the the QB won't throw the ball. If the QB doesn't have a choice then, he'll either take the damned sack, throw it away or throw it away. Is it the receirs job to get open??? No more so than it is the defenders job to NOT let the receiver get open. SO I don't understand what that has to do with anything.

I don't know what you want me to say. Are there TIMES when the receiver doesn't get away from the defensive back.. OF COURSE.. jeeeezus. Did I say that its NEVER the receivers fault?? You people are SOOOOO anxious to defend, when its not even needed, that you are pointing out ridiculous questions.

I really did it to get you fired up. :D It is so fun watching you type 10 paragraphs. :D


A BAD pass is one where the receiver can't get to. I didn't ask if the pass was "just off target".. I know the difference between a "perfect" pass and a BAD pass. A bad pass is one OVER the head... or IN the dirt. I don't know how you can blame THAT on the receiver...but I'm sure someone will ask me another "what if" question to make me explain it. I'm sure someone will make the point that the receiver should have read the short hop, came back to the QB and dived forward.

I'm not going to cover Each and every single situation and then give a detailed explanation as to each variable to that situation. There is always an "exception to the rule." ALways.


*sigh* I am not getting through. Then again I am not helping you. I am going to stop there as I can see this is going no where.

Emancipator
12-03-2005, 11:21 PM
Only a few hours to one of the best games of the year.

Bronco_f1
12-03-2005, 11:21 PM
I need to sleep, that way time will go faster...

Go Broncos! Big game in KC :beer:

Ravage!!!
12-03-2005, 11:23 PM
So it's the "throbbing knee" that causes them to motion BEFORE the snap because they can't hear the cadence??
:confused:

Read again and scratch your head harder. I didn't say they could hear the cadence.. I specifically said the noise was still there, but its backround noise that isn't penetrating the thoughts. THe false starts may still be because he can't hear the cadence, but that doesn't mean he's "listening " the crowd noise. I specifically said, "don't mistake trying harder, to being nervous." The lineman simply could have been concentrating so hard on getting where he has to go...or stop that rushing DE, that they get antsy do to trying HARDER. Crowd noise still has its effect..it makes things harder...but that doesn't mean the players HEAR the noise.

See. There is a difference between HEARING the crowd noise, and LISTENING to the crowd noise.

LETs give this example. MAYBE you guys might see what I'm saying from this.

Have any of you been watching a TV show.. and someone called to you or tried talking with/to you, but you didn't hear them because you were paying so much attention to the TV? Thats a small example as to what I'm talking about. It doesn't mATTTER (before you dorks bring it up) if the crowd noise is 78,000 people because these guys have been playing before crowds that big for a long time. They know how to concentrate, the crowd noise is just backround noise to their thoughts. I don't know how else to explain it so a 3rd grader can understand.

Emancipator
12-03-2005, 11:25 PM
Well off to bed with many.
Good morning to all the early birds that will be on in a few minutes. Keep the thread going until I return.


Let's go Broncos.

Reidman
12-03-2005, 11:28 PM
I'll be here all night! :beer:
Land of the zombies..........

Reidman
12-03-2005, 11:29 PM
A close game would be Ok, Just hope Denver doesn't blow it out like the last game in the first quarter 17-0. :D
I do!!! :D

Ravage!!!
12-03-2005, 11:30 PM
I think that's what's causing the rucus between us and you/mtn.....

You tend to throw Jakes name into any/everything that is wrong about the team....

...whereas, the rest of us simply say there's40+ other players that are also partly to blame.

I guess when push comes to shove, we WILL back up the starting qb, when he's part of the solution.
You two throw ENOUGH faults at Jake for the all of us, thank you.....

Ehhh (gameshow buzzer noise here).. wrong. I never throw Jakes name as to whats "wrong with the team." Thats horse dung. The rest of you (I'm not going to put the rest of the posters grouped with just the few of you).. want to GROUP the 40+ other players in with the "team" only when its something that has to do with Jake. JR has made it VERY VERY clear that he doesn't EVER wish to give Jake any kind of individual criticism. You are just as bad. Its to the point of being pathetic.

You obviously don' t read any of my posts if you believe that I've been bashing or blaming Jake for anything. I simply point out things that can be improved upon. When I see that He's the lowest in the LEAGUE at something, I think its SAFE to say that's something JAKE needs to work on. I even said its something EVERYONE needs to work on, but to DENY that Jake needs to take some individual criticism because of your magical "9-2".. is just blind. I don't deal with blind very well. Its not only blind, its flat out ingnoring. Its ignoring the facts because you don't want to see them. I think thats sad.

so thank you.... I think its funny how hard you have to work at admitting Jake isn't 100% perfect...yet you both try.

Ravage!!!
12-03-2005, 11:36 PM
Not meaning to pick on you, rav, but you keep eluding to things WRONGLY, which is making our debates more than they need to be.

In the above example, you said Jr states "Lelie must have run the wrong route".
But ACTUALLY, to jr's credit, he's being much more fair in his answers.
He (and others) have said "HOW DO YOU KNOW LELIE RAN THE CORRECT ROUTE?"

Big difference between what he's SAYING and what you're either 'reading' or comprehending.

Am I making any sense? :huh:


Yeah Rc.. I'm the one that's not "comprehending" here.

Let me see. Jake throws the ONE INT during the Dallas game, he says it might have been a slipped ball from his hand, or a bad route by Lelie. I'll ever use your delightful lil quote "How do we KNOW Lelie ran the correct route?"

Is that supposed to be the "Safe" way of saying that its possible Ashley was in the wrong place? Pa-LEASE. This is jus another way of saying "I think Lelie ran the wrong route"... which is just saying " there is no way Jake could have thrown a bad pass, it MUST have been Lelie running the wrong route."

Yeah, RC.. thats a BIG difference alright, wow.. I must not be comprehending what he is IMPLYING at allllllllllllllllllllllllll. Nooooo. He's simply suggesting it MIGHT not be Jake's fault, but it just MIGHT be Lelie's fault..being as he isn't prejudice towards Lelie, and seeing as he isn't defensive on Jake's behalf at all. Yeah. I"m sure I'm the one that isn't "comprehending" what is being said here. There is a HUGE diffference between the wording of those two sentences and their meaning.

I'm glad you were here to point it out for me, I don't know what I would have done without your help :ugh:

LoyalSoldier
12-03-2005, 11:38 PM
I think part of the problem has to do with the fact Rod Smith is one of the few guys who is good in medium yardage areas. I think some of our recievers need to work on their short yardage to medium.

And yes Jake does also need to work on his end of the bargan.

Ravage!!!
12-03-2005, 11:43 PM
You lost me here, rav....

so, let me get this straight.

If a person says something to the effect that a Part of a team is not the ONLY part of a failure, that that person is denying that he is anypart of it?

I personally believe that until a poster actually comes out and proclaims Jake as nothing more than an "average qb", as you have, and that he "has some glaring weaknesses", as you have, that he'll always be considered a "St. Jake worshipper".

Problem is........you'll never hear it.


Nope.. Wrong again RC. You just don't really seem to be keeping up with the conversation or the flow of the debate.

THe point is... Jr is VERy sure on how he words things. He will never admit or suggest anything is Jake's fault.. at all. Everything has to do with someone else's problem or mistake. Whether that be a bad route, a bad call, or bad blocking. Even when given the facts that Jake himself said it was a bad read (which, by the way, doesn't mean squat to me)... he STILL refuses to say it was "Jake's bad read." He words it so it was something else that was the problem.. anything OTHER than Jake alone. Jake alone can't make a mistake.

Thats ok if that's what he believes. I don't give a rat's behind if thats what he believes. But I think he proved that's exactly how he believes, because he will NOT say anything is Jake's mistake. Great. Perfect. Fine. Thats not bother to me at all. As I said, this just tells me a little bit more about Jr, and gives me a MUCH better perspective as to where he is coming from.

You. You just want to start arguements.

Javalon
12-03-2005, 11:44 PM
I think part of the problem has to do with the fact Rod Smith is one of the few guys who is good in medium yardage areas. I think some of our recievers need to work on their short yardage to medium.

And yes Jake does also need to work on his end of the bargan.
And that's basically it. Everybody shares in the blame and they all need to pick it up on third downs. Whatever the cause, I'm just hoping that Shanny and the players are focusing hard on getting it fixed.

Yes, we're 9-2. But our struggles on third down could come back to haunt us down the road. If we fix it, our future looks bright.

Ravage!!!
12-03-2005, 11:44 PM
I think part of the problem has to do with the fact Rod Smith is one of the few guys who is good in medium yardage areas. I think some of our recievers need to work on their short yardage to medium.

And yes Jake does also need to work on his end of the bargan.

I agree. I think we need some more production from our other receivers, as well as out TE's.. and the backs coming out of the backfield.

Our offense is weak right now in the passing game, and this is a big reason why, as well as a big reason why we are poor on third down.

mid_evil_thymz
12-03-2005, 11:45 PM
anyone else getting that tickling feeling in your stomach whenever you look at the clock? I hope it is a blowout in the first 1/2. I chain smoke marlboro's and chew my nails off when its a tight game. I do love the rush though. Especially when there's a W posted beside the Bronco's names in the box score. Either way though I Know this is gonna be an exciting game from start to finish. One thing you can always expect is that the Chiefs will bring it when the bronc's are in the house. Im going to say that scores in the 30's are gonna be tough to come by. Im gonna go with 24 to 17 Denver Wins by forcing the Chiefs to to turn it over on downs in the final drive of the game....
GO BRONCOS
Mid_evil_thymz

DrunkPanda
12-03-2005, 11:53 PM
hi all....... here's to the broncos beating the chiefs 70-3 just like how the stupid texans slaughtered my beloved buffaloes :ugh: