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MindField
08-04-2007, 02:15 PM
Overview:

One of the most impressive things I saw at camp yesterday was the quality of the Coaching I saw from Jim Bates and Co. This guy will make a tremendous difference for our Defense, as will Bill Johnson as an assist D-Line Coach. To me, this is light years ahead of what I have witnessed in the past with Larry Coyer. I just can't wait to see what materializes on the field, because I think it is going to be a dramatic improvement for the Broncos Defense.

D-Line

The biggest improvement for our D-Line, at least initially, will come from the contribution of DT Sam Adams. I can't tell you how impressive he is. He is just HUGE. He is also the embodiment of veteran saavy, and is a man's man and a Pro's pro. He will be the starter with Gerard Warren at DT, and obviously has the respect of even the veteran players on the team. He is a guy you can tell just leads by example. His job in Bates Defense will be to clog things up in the middle, stuff the run and in general be a rock in the middle of the line. I think he will do this very well, and players like Gerard Warren and Marcus Thomas will be the beneficiaries.

Ebeneezer Ekuban looked good and will be one starting DE, and strangely enough, John Engelberger is running with the first team as the other. There are certain players in Broncos history that for whatever reason, endeared themselves to the Broncos coaching staffs and got alot of playing time, even though their contributions on the filed never seemed to warrant the playing time they received. Jim Ryan was one of those, so was Steve Wilson, so is Nate Jackson now.....so is John Engelberger, IMO. I just don't get it...how he is a front runner over Kenard Lang is beyond me. I would not even give Engelberger a roster spot, and yet he appears to be in contention to be a starter.

Go figure.

Tim Crowder has been the most impressive rookie of all thus far, and will probably become a starter as soon as 2008 for the Broncos...at least that is how he has looked in practice....but then again, so did Mike Croel once upon a time. Crowder will still have to prove it come gametime, because he has had the tendency to disappear in games even at Texas, so I will still believe it when I see it from Crowder.

Jarvis Moss is young and green and will have to make his mark this year as a designated pass-rusher as a rookie, similar to what we saw from Dumervil last year.

Something tells me when the dust settles, Demetrin Veal will have a job and Jimmy Kennedy will not.

Kenard Lang seems to be on the outside looking in, but I don't understand why. The Broncos 'body language' indicates he will be traded or released prior to the season. I would consider this a mistake.

Alvin McKinley was not as prominent in the D-Line rotation as I would have expected.

Prediction: The Broncos will keep at least (9) D-linemen and maybe ten...for now, I will call it Warren, Adams, Engelberger, Ekuban, Thomas, Veal, Moss, Crowder and Dumervil.


LB's

I have just one message for the Broncos coaching staff....GET FREAKIN' NATE WEBSTER ON THE FIELD!!!!!!!!!!!
The guy is just a straight-up football player... he just makes plays whenever he plays. He is also the same size at 6'1"-230 as Eddie Moore was with Bates Dolphins, so he does fit that mold.

With Williams and Gold as the starters, the battle for the other OLB position appeared to be between Warrick Holdman (before he got injured Thursday), DD Lewis and Webster.

One of the bigger disappointments in camp for me was the lack of reps I saw Cameron Vaughn get....he spent alot of time standing around and just seemed to be an afterthought to the Broncos coaching staff.

Prediction: The Broncos will keep (6) LB's at least, but with the uncertainty surrounding Holdman, I can only name DJ Williams, Gold, Webster, and Louis Green as locks....Holdman would be the fifth if he can come back....the other will depend on if Eddie Moore for example can return to camp after a minor knee procedure.

DB's

The Broncos really have to hope that Karl Paymah and Dominique Foxworth stay healthy, because they have no other depth at Corner. I am not sure Jeff Shoate or any of the others even belong in an NFL camp.

With Lynch and Ferguson as the starters, Curome Cox and Hamza Abdullah are the most impressive young backups. Cox in particular could be the next Nick Ferguson if he continues to improve.

Prediction: The Broncos keep (8) DB's, with Champ, Bly, Lynch, Ferguson, Paymah, Foxworth, Cox and Abdullah amking the cut.

Well, that's it for now.

Out.

Lorcust
08-04-2007, 02:19 PM
Eddie Moore cleared waivers and was put on IR, so he isn't coming back.

But very good analysis. :clap:

Hawgdriver
08-04-2007, 02:41 PM
I would have to think that Bates prefers Engelberger over Lang. Why?? :confused:

I have one additional comment:

Adding Jim Bates will make up for the loss of Al Wilson's leadership. I am not as worried as I was before about the leadership vacuum. He'll be on the sidelines, and you can tell by his conduct in TC that he's forging a cohesive unit, accountable to each other. :salute:

stnzed
08-04-2007, 03:11 PM
If I'm counting right, you only have a 52 player roster.

And if you're right about Veal, I hope that the 53rd player is another DT to off-set the complete nothingness that Veal provides.

Btw, how in the hell do you put Steve Watson in the same group of players "that really don't do much"? A group that should include the immortal Demetrin Veal.....

rbk_bronco
08-04-2007, 03:59 PM
Great post man, so you actually think Cox can fill Fergusons role when he leaves?

Dream
08-04-2007, 04:10 PM
Thanks for the reports, and maybe I'll get to see you if I do get down there next year.

Anyways, I think you'll continue to be impressed by Crowder. I know that Kaylore didn't think too much of him either, but that didn't stop him from being honest in his camp reports and reporting that overall he had been doing a good job.

If Tim can be an anchor in the running game at LE, that's great - and if he offers occasional burst in the pass rush, that's great too. That's what I expect. I don't expect the 8.5-10+ sacks a year like Dumervil and Moss will be getting. Tim will just be a solid player for a long time. Nothing too flashy, but he'll get the job done.

Thanks again.

Broncosinindy
08-04-2007, 04:12 PM
Nothing i have read anywhere has said that veal will make the team. i have read that kaylore and Socal on burton that he has turned up the motor. veal IMO has been as invisible this year as cameron vaughan

MindField
08-04-2007, 04:17 PM
Nothing i have read anywhere has said that veal will make the team. i have read that kaylore and Socal on burton that he has turned up the motor. veal IMO has been as invisible this year as cameron vaughan

This is just not true. Veal was very much involved in yesterday's practices, and I would make him the favorite to beat out Burton...now Kennedy is another story, but so far, he has not been impressive.

People have been trying to write Veal off for two years, and he just keeps making the team...and he adds a different dimension to the D-Line, quickness.

MindField
08-04-2007, 04:18 PM
If I'm counting right, you only have a 52 player roster.

And if you're right about Veal, I hope that the 53rd player is another DT to off-set the complete nothingness that Veal provides.

Btw, how in the hell do you put Steve Watson in the same group of players "that really don't do much"? A group that should include the immortal Demetrin Veal.....


Yeah, I don't know where they will keep an extra player...the 52 I list are the players I think will make it, but there is another spot to be addressed.

...oh, and BTW, it's Steve WILSON, the Cornerback that started in the late 80's, not Steve Watson the WR....I could never figure out how the hell Steve Wilson made the Broncos team....or started for that matter. I think he started SB XXIII against Washington after Louis Wright retired....you can see him (with S Tony Lilly) following Clark and Sanders into the end-zone in three or four different TD passes from Doug Williams.

That SB still makes me sick after all these years...

MindField
08-04-2007, 04:19 PM
Great post man, so you actually think Cox can fill Fergusons role when he leaves?

I do...in fact, I would not be at all suprised if Cox and Abdullah are the starters in a couple years time.

stnzed
08-04-2007, 04:28 PM
This is just not true. Veal was very much involved in yesterday's practices, and I would make him the favorite to beat out Burton...now Kennedy is another story, but so far, he has not been impressive.

People have been trying to write Veal off for two years, and he just keeps making the team...and he adds a different dimension to the D-Line, quickness.


Which he makes for by being completely useless in a real game.

If he makes the team again hopefully Bates is a freaking god and can get some kind of production out of him....By that I mean hopefully he can keep Veal from getting blown off the LOS clear past the LB's.

If he makes it again I'm gonna laugh til I cry....Again!

MindField
08-04-2007, 04:29 PM
Thanks for the reports, and maybe I'll get to see you if I do get down there next year.

Anyways, I think you'll continue to be impressed by Crowder. I know that Kaylore didn't think too much of him either, but that didn't stop him from being honest in his camp reports and reporting that overall he had been doing a good job.

If Tim can be an anchor in the running game at LE, that's great - and if he offers occasional burst in the pass rush, that's great too. That's what I expect. I don't expect the 8.5-10+ sacks a year like Dumervil and Moss will be getting. Tim will just be a solid player for a long time. Nothing too flashy, but he'll get the job done.

Thanks again.

I hope you are right...after Tim Crowder was drafted, he became a Bronco and I became a hopeful fan of his. I hope he lines up as the starting LDE for the next decade or so. I like his physical size, I like his character, I like his work ethic...I just have not been thrilled at times with his production....but he is one player I am truly hopeful that I have been wrong about.

If he can be a Greg Ellis-type in his prime sort of player, I will be thrilled.

MindField
08-04-2007, 04:32 PM
Which he makes for by being completely useless in a real game.

If he makes the team again hopefully Bates is a freaking god and can get some kind of production out of him....By that I mean hopefully he can keep Veal from getting blown off the LOS clear past the LB's.

If he makes it again I'm gonna laugh til I cry....Again!

I don't necessarily disagree, but you have to look at his competiton for the fourth DT spot...namely Kennedy and Burton. Burton is a short and squatty NT type of player, and Kennedy is a classic underachiever, worse than Gerard Warren's worst critics could mention.

I just get the impression Veal will be the fourth DT when all is said and done, partially because he is under contract for the future. If the Broncos keep Adams and Kennedy, then half of their DT's have to be replaced in 2008. I think that will factor into the decision making process.

Dream
08-04-2007, 04:33 PM
I hope you are right...after Tim Crowder was drafted, he became a Bronco and I became a hopeful fan of his. I hope he lines up as the starting LDE for the next decade or so. I like his physical size, I like his character, I like his work ethic...I just have not been thrilled at times with his production....but he is one player I am truly hopeful that I have been wrong about.

If he can be a Greg Ellis-type in his prime sort of player, I will be thrilled.

Well, I've been saying Greg Ellis prior to his drafting and I think he'll be able to do that.

A friend of mine on the Mane (not Kaylore or SoCal) was able to stand right next to the guy and he said, if God designed a defensive end (prototypical body) it'd be Crowder.

Hopefully he can improve mentally and work on his snap anticipation and explosion off the line, if he can do that, it'll really help him, especially in the pass rush. As Bates mentioned, and guys like SoCal and Kaylore mentioned all week, his technique is really great.

I hope he continues.

We should both be happy we got lineman this year though. Heck, this next year is even good too. I'd like to get another tackle, but it seems like some of our guys are surprising. Although, a few of them are one year rentals, so you never know.

MindField
08-04-2007, 04:42 PM
Well, I've been saying Greg Ellis prior to his drafting and I think he'll be able to do that.

A friend of mine on the Mane (not Kaylore or SoCal) was able to stand right next to the guy and he said, if God designed a defensive end (prototypical body) it'd be Crowder.

Hopefully he can improve mentally and work on his snap anticipation and explosion off the line, if he can do that, it'll really help him, especially in the pass rush. As Bates mentioned, and guys like SoCal and Kaylore mentioned all week, his technique is really great.

I hope he continues.

We should both be happy we got lineman this year though. Heck, this next year is even good too. I'd like to get another tackle, but it seems like some of our guys are surprising. Although, a few of them are one year rentals, so you never know.

Yeah, and Crowder will get bigger and stronger, and if he ends up in the 285-290 realm, he could be special, ala Trevor Pryce.

Yes, we have some monsters on the D-Line.

Yesterday, I was standing on the sideline with my sons and three of their young friends, watching some 7 on 7 drills in front of us, with the lineman on the field directly behind us...suddenly, the horn sounded and all the linemen started walking to the field directly through our line. Jarvis Moss, Sam Adams, E Ekuban, Warren, Crowder, etc were literally within two to three feet of me and the kids....you should have seen the look on their faces...it was like a heard of elephants were walking through our line. They were so awestruck at the pure size of these guys they did not even think to slap high-fives with the guys, or even say a word, which they could have easily done....I thought that was quite funny...just a group of 11 yr olds with their jaws dropped wide open. THAT was worth the trip up to Dove Valley alone.

!ceman
08-04-2007, 05:02 PM
Great post man, so you actually think Cox can fill Fergusons role when he leaves?

Cox has looked pretty good, but Abdullah has been outstanding!

Broncosinindy
08-04-2007, 05:42 PM
This is just not true. Veal was very much involved in yesterday's practices, and I would make him the favorite to beat out Burton...now Kennedy is another story, but so far, he has not been impressive.

People have been trying to write Veal off for two years, and he just keeps making the team...and he adds a different dimension to the D-Line, quickness.

that sounds vaugely familiar i think a guy or three has been doiing the same thing to nate jackson.

I think we have a penetrator or two in marcus Thomas, Kennedy. and possibly in warren. I would keep Kennedy or Burton to see if they can pan out as the clogger types.

Sam adams will be great for this year and who knows what will happen next year. but if he doesnt come back next year we will have to address the position yet again. Veal played at around 290 lbs last year and just not a dominant guy.

Burton has the size and has played really well and would be a better back up then veal for what we need.

Heck i could be wrong but that is how i see it

stnzed
08-04-2007, 06:29 PM
I don't necessarily disagree, but you have to look at his competiton for the fourth DT spot...namely Kennedy and Burton. Burton is a short and squatty NT type of player, and Kennedy is a classic underachiever, worse than Gerard Warren's worst critics could mention.

I just get the impression Veal will be the fourth DT when all is said and done, partially because he is under contract for the future. If the Broncos keep Adams and Kennedy, then half of their DT's have to be replaced in 2008. I think that will factor into the decision making process.

I'm just praying they don't!

The Broncos could take a chance on Kennedy playing up to his abilities and hope for the best. Or the could keep Veal and know they'll get nothing!

Hopefully contract situation has nothing to do with the decision. They can always offer Kennedy/Adams new contracts during the season if they are working out.....Just like they can, and should, replace Veal with the greatest of ease!

topscribe
08-04-2007, 08:07 PM
I'm just praying they don't!

The Broncos could take a chance on Kennedy playing up to his abilities and hope for the best. Or the could keep Veal and know they'll get nothing!

Hopefully contract situation has nothing to do with the decision. They can always offer Kennedy/Adams new contracts during the season if they are working out.....Just like they can, and should, replace Veal with the greatest of ease!
Methinks Kennedy is an upgrade over Veal.

Well, so are a lot of others, come to think of it. ;)

-----

stnzed
08-04-2007, 08:16 PM
Methinks Kennedy is an upgrade over Veal.

Well, so are a lot of others, come to think of it. ;)

-----


Heck! Ted Gregory would be an upgrade.:D

Who is that dude that puked on the centers hand? Drozdov? Bring him back....

!ceman
08-04-2007, 08:27 PM
Veal's been playing well but I've seen Kennedy get decent push a time or two as well. Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing Veal in Nickel Packages at DT. Right now that lineup consists of Elvis, Ekuban, Warren, and Jarvis. Warren has looked very ordinary this camp, perhaps he's just going through the motions though? At any rate, I think Veal could really get some push in place of Warren. Giving up a lot of size I know and they need a big body to protect Moss and/or Elvis but Warren isn't that guy from what I've seen lately. Hopefully he's just dogging it and will turn it up in the coming weeks.

stnzed
08-04-2007, 08:30 PM
Veal's been playing well but I've seen Kennedy get decent push a time or two as well. Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing Veal in Nickel Packages at DT. Right now that lineup consists of Elvis, Ekuban, Warren, and Jarvis. Warren has looked very ordinary this camp, perhaps he's just going through the motions though? At any rate, I think Veal could really get some push in place of Warren. Giving up a lot of size I know and they need a big body to protect Moss and/or Elvis but Warren isn't that guy from what I've seen lately. Hopefully he's just dogging it and will turn it up in the coming weeks.


That's great news! If Veal is a better option in any package, the Broncos are ****ing doomed!

stnzed
08-04-2007, 08:32 PM
That's great news! If Veal is a better option in any package, the Broncos are ****ing doomed!


Doomed!! :D

!ceman
08-04-2007, 08:42 PM
Doomed!! :D

You just quoted yourself!!! That's horriblie internet message board etiquette...you're fired! :coffee: Quickly reinstated upon buying the first round though.

I'm not saying that Veal is a good option just saying that Warren is a poor option. Personally, I'd put Kennedy in that position. Big body that happens to be a very good penatrator... just what the Dr ordered for a pass D.

stnzed
08-04-2007, 09:01 PM
You just quoted yourself!!! That's horriblie internet message board etiquette...you're fired! :coffee: Quickly reinstated upon buying the first round though.

I'm not saying that Veal is a good option just saying that Warren is a poor option. Personally, I'd put Kennedy in that position. Big body that happens to be a very good penatrator... just what the Dr ordered for a pass D.


Fired? Etiquette? W..E!....

I'm just saying if Veal is a better option than Warren in any situation the Broncos are ****ed!

What I really mean is that I find it hard to believe that Veal is better than Warren on his worst day.

Even if Warren is cut tomorrow and Demetrin Veal is promoted to 1st team, you could never convince me it was because Veal is better.....

gyldenlove
08-04-2007, 09:19 PM
Being far away from the action and relying solely on reports from camp and sound gutfeeling to make judgements I have to say, I think you are a little off target on the defense.

On the defensive line, Moss, Crowder, Thomas, Adams, Warren, Ekuban, Dumervil and Engelberger look like locks. So that is 8 players, with 5 ends and 3 tackles, now at least one more tackle will make the squad. I think that will be Kennedy, Adams gets winded and needs to be spelled regularly, Veal couldn't spell anybody on a running down so he is useless in that situation and that leaves too much pressure on Thomas. I think they take Kennedy because he can play in passing situations and he can spell Adams in normal play.

I do believe there is a chance 10 players will make the D-line, so Lang, Veal, Burton and McKinley are fighting to make the hypothetical 10th spot in my view.

On LB I think we will keep 6, DD Lewis, DJ Williams, Gold, Louis Green and Webster are locks. If Holdman is able to come back during camp from his injury he will make the 6th spot.

In the secondary, I think we will keep the big 4 CB's and the big 4 S's as well as either Cargile og Harris to play on special teams.

Kaylore
08-04-2007, 09:19 PM
Thanks for the reports, and maybe I'll get to see you if I do get down there next year.

Anyways, I think you'll continue to be impressed by Crowder. I know that Kaylore didn't think too much of him either, but that didn't stop him from being honest in his camp reports and reporting that overall he had been doing a good job.
Yeah but that doesn't mean he's the most impressive one out there. Moss is hands down the most explosive. Crowder is doing well and growing in degrees, but still lacks a quick first step. Is he good against the run? Yeah. Is he good at rushing the passer? Not really. When asked what the biggest concern for the team was last year when the offense was looking bad under Plummer, Shanahan said the pass rush. That's why Jarvis will do more for this team than Crowder will. And my money is still on Burton. I have a feeling he's going to get bumped up the depth chart come Monday morning.

Broncosinindy
08-04-2007, 09:57 PM
with the deals veal mckinley got how hard is it for denver to cut them. how long is burton signed for. i look for denver to carry 10 Ends and Tackles due to the question ofwholll be here next year.

topscribe
08-04-2007, 10:00 PM
with the deals veal mckinley got how hard is it for denver to cut them. how long is burton signed for. i look for denver to carry 10 Ends and Tackles due to the question ofwholll be here next year.
I have yet to see Shanny look at anything but the performance on the field in
evaluating a dept chart. He has booted first-rounders and started FAs. Neither
that nor contracts matters to him. Only wins.

Who stays and who goes will depend on who wins the battles on the field.

-----

Dream
08-04-2007, 10:17 PM
I have yet to see Shanny look at anything but the performance on the field in
evaluating a dept chart. He has booted first-rounders and started FAs. Neither
that nor contracts matters to him. Only wins.

Who stays and who goes will depend on who wins the battles on the field.

-----

This is a half-truth, but I do think that the contracts do matter.

Obviously Bly played at a high level this camp, but he wouldn't be benched over Foxworth even if he started to struggle. Too much investment in him.

Where I agree that at some positions it might be different, but in regards to our players who have the big contracts - it does matter. IMO.

Lorcust
08-04-2007, 10:32 PM
This is a half-truth, but I do think that the contracts do matter.

Obviously Bly played at a high level this camp, but he wouldn't be benched over Foxworth even if he started to struggle. Too much investment in him.

Where I agree that at some positions it might be different, but in regards to our players who have the big contracts - it does matter. IMO.

I'm thinking that Alvin McKinley could be the next Jed Weaver if he doesn't perform up to snuff in camp.

I think he'll keep 5 DEs and 5 DTs, with the 5 DEs being Ekuban, Moss, Dumervil, Crowder and then either Lang or Engelburger, and the 5 DTs being Gerard Warren, Sam Adams, Marcus Thomas and then 2 of the spots being between the next 4: Jimmy Kennedy, Antwon Burton, Demetrin Veal and Alvin McKinley.

Dream
08-04-2007, 10:44 PM
I'm thinking that Alvin McKinley could be the next Jed Weaver if he doesn't perform up to snuff in camp.

I think he'll keep 5 DEs and 5 DTs, with the 5 DEs being Ekuban, Moss, Dumervil, Crowder and then either Lang or Engelburger, and the 5 DTs being Gerard Warren, Sam Adams, Marcus Thomas and then 2 of the spots being between the next 4: Jimmy Kennedy, Antwon Burton, Demetrin Veal and Alvin McKinley.

As much as I disagreed with SoCal about Engleberger making the team, he seems to be really strong at keeping his assignments, controlling his area and containing well in the run game. We need that on first-down. I don't think Lang is as good in that regard, and with Ekuban, Dumervil and Moss (especially the last two) being solid pass rushers, I don't think we need him. Throw in Tim Crowder, and I don't see where Lang fits, unless we carry six ends which I just can't see us doing.

I think McKinley stays. I don't think he was FOCUSED on in the camp reports, and where the guys on the Mane did a great job (have two interviews on my blog coming up with them) it's hard to get a look at everyone.

McKinley can double as an end too, so his versatility should pay off. It'll be interesting to see. I know that on past defenses, Bates has usually had ten lineman. We can cut a guy (Ernster, TE, etc.) and make room for another. It'll just depend on how the flow of the roster is.

Although it's not much, I don't see us cutting a guy we gave a four year deal, but then again, we did extend Veal and he's a possible cut too.

Burton could probably be practice squaded again.

If Kennedy gets cut, what a waste.

Lorcust
08-04-2007, 11:13 PM
As much as I disagreed with SoCal about Engleberger making the team, he seems to be really strong at keeping his assignments, controlling his area and containing well in the run game. We need that on first-down. I don't think Lang is as good in that regard, and with Ekuban, Dumervil and Moss (especially the last two) being solid pass rushers, I don't think we need him. Throw in Tim Crowder, and I don't see where Lang fits, unless we carry six ends which I just can't see us doing.

I think McKinley stays. I don't think he was FOCUSED on in the camp reports, and where the guys on the Mane did a great job (have two interviews on my blog coming up with them) it's hard to get a look at everyone.

McKinley can double as an end too, so his versatility should pay off. It'll be interesting to see. I know that on past defenses, Bates has usually had ten lineman. We can cut a guy (Ernster, TE, etc.) and make room for another. It'll just depend on how the flow of the roster is.

Although it's not much, I don't see us cutting a guy we gave a four year deal, but then again, we did extend Veal and he's a possible cut too.

Burton could probably be practice squaded again.

If Kennedy gets cut, what a waste.

Think of the hilarity that ensues on this board from the armchair GMs though. :laugh:

You make good points though, the people I said were locks in my opinion were people who

A) Have done well in camp

or

B) Are de facto starters

We'll see what happens, but yeh, Lang looks like the odd man out.

Dream
08-04-2007, 11:22 PM
I try not and consider myself an armchair GM, nor do I like playing it - but any time you choose to throw away a draft choice for a guy who won't even make the team with the justification that, "Well, most sixth rounders don't make the team." - we have problems.

I've always admired the way that Ted and Mike have been able to field competitive teams, but hearing Ted talking in interviews gives me an absolute headache. A few guys on the Mane seem to feel the same way, but because of personal contact with him though. "Met him once and that was enough."

"Nuff said."

But we'll see, hindsight is 20/20. I think Kennedy makes it.

Cugel
08-04-2007, 11:26 PM
This is just not true. Veal was very much involved in yesterday's practices, and I would make him the favorite to beat out Burton...now Kennedy is another story, but so far, he has not been impressive.

People have been trying to write Veal off for two years, and he just keeps making the team...and he adds a different dimension to the D-Line, quickness.
Personally, I think the attribute he most brings to the DL is "suckiness", but then the coaches don't seem to agree since they keep bringing him back.

Could it be for his special teams play? He is FAST, which is an asset on special teams.

Kennedy took up a draft pick, but he's going to need to show something to stick around, they're not just going to give it to him. Total waste of a pick though if he's cut. :coffee:

In fact, the front office was talking about signing him for next year if he pans out, so it's a disappointment that he's not even doing well enough to make the team.

I wasn't optimistic he'd totally turn it around, but thought he'd at least be adequate. So far from everything I've read (I haven't been to any practices) it looks like MUG was right about him being worthless.

Hard to believe he couldn't beat out Veal, but stranger things have happened.

As for Engleberger, I've been waiting for him to be cut for years now. What the hell they see in him is beyond me and I give up!

Another STs player as far as I can tell, he sucked hind-tit last year. But, then that's nothing new for him. :coffee:

I'm hoping that his stay on the 1st team is short-lived and that he gets the heave-ho. Some other player is going to have to do the heaving though and it doesn't sound like Lang is doing it. He'd be expensive to cut though, as far as I'm aware.

If Kennedy is blowing chunks, and Burton is a useless scrub, then Veal has to like his chances.

Hawgdriver
08-05-2007, 12:42 AM
Fired? Etiquette? W..E!....

I really, really need an explanation. Plzed?

BTW, it's completely realistic that money is 'going through the motions' and Veal is fighting for his life. That kind of thing jumps out at you...even if money is infinitely more talented.

Hawgdriver
08-05-2007, 12:50 AM
As much as I disagreed with SoCal about Engleberger making the team, he seems to be really strong at keeping his assignments, controlling his area and containing well in the run game. We need that on first-down. I don't think Lang is as good in that regard

Alright brother, this is where I need some more detail. Can anyone provide evidence that E-berg is a superior DE to Lang? Explain what you mean by 'keeping his assignments'. I'm not trying to nit-pick, I'm trying to get to the real heart of the DE battle. :salute:

!ceman
08-05-2007, 07:22 AM
Alright brother, this is where I need some more detail. Can anyone provide evidence that E-berg is a superior DE to Lang? Explain what you mean by 'keeping his assignments'. I'm not trying to nit-pick, I'm trying to get to the real heart of the DE battle. :salute:

Lang is very one dimensional and plays with one thing in mind, get after the ball. Unfortunately that means going to where you think the ball is. He gets caught out of position on misdirection and rollouts/boots etc. Engleberger doesn't an exceptional job of keeping his assignments and funnelling everything back toward the inside or making the play himself. He understands the importance of sealing the outside and makes plays by sealing and then 'richocheting' into the ball carrier. He's the best run defender at DE currently and it shows...most of the time. Yesterday he was the first one to take his pads off and stood around in his T/Undershirt while going through positional coaching post-practice.

So, you have Lang that can get after the ball carrier and rush the QB w/speed and Engleberger who plays the run the best of our DEs. Lang, Moss, Dumervil, and Ekuban to an extent are similar players. Engleberger, Ekuban, and Crowder are similar players. When you look at it that way its pretty easy to see who the odd man out is. It was bound to be either Lang or Lang with the additon of Moss!!

topscribe
08-05-2007, 07:58 AM
Alright brother, this is where I need some more detail. Can anyone provide evidence that E-berg is a superior DE to Lang? Explain what you mean by 'keeping his assignments'. I'm not trying to nit-pick, I'm trying to get to the real heart of the DE battle. :salute:
What Iceman said, plus the fact that the coaches, who are closely watching
and evaluating the talent, are starting Engelberger. That's a pretty strong
argument, isn't it?

As a side note, according to Coach Scout (http://www.couchscout.com/dnvr.htm), Engelberger has the fastest 40 time
of all the defensive linemen. I really don't know what that means as a DE in
comparison. Just a point of interest, that's all.

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topscribe
08-05-2007, 08:00 AM
Lang is very one dimensional and plays with one thing in mind, get after the ball. Unfortunately that means going to where you think the ball is. He gets caught out of position on misdirection and rollouts/boots etc. Engleberger doesn't an exceptional job of keeping his assignments and funnelling everything back toward the inside or making the play himself. He understands the importance of sealing the outside and makes plays by sealing and then 'richocheting' into the ball carrier. He's the best run defender at DE currently and it shows...most of the time. Yesterday he was the first one to take his pads off and stood around in his T/Undershirt while going through positional coaching post-practice.

So, you have Lang that can get after the ball carrier and rush the QB w/speed and Engleberger who plays the run the best of our DEs. Lang, Moss, Dumervil, and Ekuban to an extent are similar players. Engleberger, Ekuban, and Crowder are similar players. When you look at it that way its pretty easy to see who the odd man out is. It was bound to be either Lang or Lang with the additon of Moss!!
You mean "does," don't you? ;)

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aaronheeb
08-05-2007, 08:40 AM
for what it is worth when Adams has sat out the morning practices, it has been Kennedy to fill in his spot on the A defense... I think that says something about who they are looking at...

And as for Engleberger, i think he is a worthy of a spot and a temporary starter until moss moss matures. I really dont think Engleberger is going to be at the position for the whole year, but he was good last year in his limited role, both in pass and run defense....

I am not sure if Veal is going to be around, and based on what we have seen in the depth chart ths far it seems if kennedy does well it is his spot to lose

!ceman
08-05-2007, 09:16 AM
You mean "does," don't you? ;)

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yup..........

Broncosinindy
08-05-2007, 10:58 AM
Everything i have read this year as far as D-Line goes, is this. Most of the reports i have read are focusing on the DE spot. We know that Engleberger is playing first team.

We havent heard much from the interior line just snippets. The most we have heard is that Adams is top notch but doesnt have the Stamina.

We'll find out more tommorow when the DC comes out tommorow.

If it was up to me id go like this

DE
EE, JE, JM, TC, ED.


DT

SA, GW, JK, MT,AM.

stnzed
08-05-2007, 01:10 PM
I really, really need an explanation. Plzed?

BTW, it's completely realistic that money is 'going through the motions' and Veal is fighting for his life. That kind of thing jumps out at you...even if money is infinitely more talented.


Means What....Ever!

Btw, that's what I'm afraid of! Money losing out to Veal because he's freakin lazy! The Broncos need Warren, not some 288lb journeyman.....

Cugel
08-05-2007, 08:33 PM
Means What....Ever!

Btw, that's what I'm afraid of! Money losing out to Veal because he's freakin lazy! The Broncos need Warren, not some 288lb journeyman.....

Relax! The chances of Warren being cut to make room for Veal are ZERO! Warren is penciled in as one starter and it's between Veal, Kennedy, and the rest to back up Adams at the other spot.

No way they cut Warren and keep Veal because he's NOT a starter.

Now NEXT year, Big Money could be gone, gone, gone. But, not this year!

Mat'hir Uth Gan
08-05-2007, 11:00 PM
It wouldn't surprise me to see Warren cut this pre-season, or more likely traded. There are many teams that need DTs, such as the Colts, and those teams won't be too picky, and we could probably fleece them. That said, our depth at DT is less than stellar, and Marcus Thomas can't be counted on as a long term answer quite yet, so we might be reluctant to part with any player that shows an ounce of talent.


I'm not entirely sure what is going on with Mckinley. He's a good player, and while obviously the pick-up of Sam Adams hurts his play time, it's hard for me to understand him being stuck on the 3rd team unless he showed up to camp overweight or did something to get in Shanahan's dog house. The fact that we gave him a large contract suggests something happened to cause him to be buried. Hopefully, he's given a fair shake because once Adams wears down mid-way through the year, I think he'll be our most consistent DT.


I hope they fix this white background soon, ugh.

dogfish
08-06-2007, 12:05 AM
I'm not entirely sure what is going on with Mckinley. He's a good player, and while obviously the pick-up of Sam Adams hurts his play time, it's hard for me to understand him being stuck on the 3rd team unless he showed up to camp overweight or did something to get in Shanahan's dog house. The fact that we gave him a large contract suggests something happened to cause him to be buried.

the coaches got to see him play first-hand. . . :) remember the conversation we had in my TC preview thread where i predicted that mckinley would be fighting for the last DT spot on the team? so far that looks to be how it's playing out. . . though i still see him making the squad if we keep 5 DTs, i wouldn't be shocked to see us go with burton instead-- he's younger and cheaper, has more upside, and is a better fit as a pure DT for bates' scheme (although he's not as versatile, so it may depend on the exact role they have in mind for that spot). . .

i can't see us getting rid of warren this year, but if he doesn't step it up i think next year is when he'll really be in danger of getting the axe. . .


a word about engelberger. . . i said several times last year that i thought he was our most consistent DE against the run-- certainly not spectacular, but consistency is worth something to the coaches. . . as others have pointed out, he's a smart player who always knows his assignment. . . i saw ekuban overpursue badly and lose his containment responsibilities, leading to big outside gainers, on multiple occasions-- admittedly engelberger wasn't in for as many snaps, but it's something he rarely ever does. . . something else i noticed was that he was probably the best of our DEs at protecting his legs against cut blocks, and staying on his feet to protect the backside against cutback runs. . . he is disciplined and instinctive. . . and while he may not have as much base strength to hold the point as ekuban, he's scrappy and plays with good leverage. . . overall, he's pretty one-dimensional, and not a guy to get particularly excited about-- but he's solid at what he does. . . i honestly don't see him playing the majority of snaps at RDE even if he does end up as the nominal starter-- moss looks to be too talented a pass rusher to keep off the field consistently. . . on the other hand, i know i don't feel very comfortable with either him or elvis as a starter when LT or LJ is on the other side of the ball. . .

Hawgdriver
08-06-2007, 12:52 AM
Engleberger does an exceptional job of keeping his assignments and funnelling everything back toward the inside or making the play himself. He understands the importance of sealing the outside and makes plays by sealing and then 'richocheting' into the ball carrier.


What Iceman said, plus the fact that the coaches, who are closely watching
and evaluating the talent, are starting Engelberger. That's a pretty strong
argument, isn't it?
-----
It looks like Engelberger has generated some serious momentum. I think it seems like JE/EE will be on top of the chart. I'm a bit surprised, but I like the explanation.

Means What....Ever!

Btw, that's what I'm afraid of! Money losing out to Veal because he's freakin lazy! The Broncos need Warren, not some 288lb journeyman.....
TY for explaining.

It wouldn't surprise me to see Warren cut this pre-season

I would be surprised. I'm not saying I think you are wrong; just that it would surprise me. I think Money will turn it up and tear it up when it's gametime. Many sourpuss TC wussies are actually pretty 'money' when it's showtime--I hope GW is one of them.


a word about engelberger. . . i honestly don't see him playing the majority of snaps at RDE even if he does end up as the nominal starter-- moss looks to be too talented a pass rusher to keep off the field consistently. . . on the other hand, i know i don't feel very comfortable with either him or elvis as a starter when LT or LJ is on the other side of the ball. . .

That sounds very realistic. We might be putting too much credence into the depth chart, since I would think our packages will be always changing based on situation (duh).

bleedbluorange
08-06-2007, 12:59 AM
the coaches got to see him play first-hand. . . :) remember the conversation we had in my TC preview thread where i predicted that mckinley would be fighting for the last DT spot on the team? so far that looks to be how it's playing out. . . though i still see him making the squad if we keep 5 DTs, i wouldn't be shocked to see us go with burton instead-- he's younger and cheaper, has more upside, and is a better fit as a pure DT for bates' scheme (although he's not as versatile, so it may depend on the exact role they have in mind for that spot). . .

i can't see us getting rid of warren this year, but if he doesn't step it up i think next year is when he'll really be in danger of getting the axe. . .


a word about engelberger. . . i said several times last year that i thought he was our most consistent DE against the run-- certainly not spectacular, but consistency is worth something to the coaches. . . as others have pointed out, he's a smart player who always knows his assignment. . . i saw ekuban overpursue badly and lose his containment responsibilities, leading to big outside gainers, on multiple occasions-- admittedly engelberger wasn't in for as many snaps, but it's something he rarely ever does. . . something else i noticed was that he was probably the best of our DEs at protecting his legs against cut blocks, and staying on his feet to protect the backside against cutback runs. . . he is disciplined and instinctive. . . and while he may not have as much base strength to hold the point as ekuban, he's scrappy and plays with good leverage. . . overall, he's pretty one-dimensional, and not a guy to get particularly excited about-- but he's solid at what he does. . . i honestly don't see him playing the majority of snaps at RDE even if he does end up as the nominal starter-- moss looks to be too talented a pass rusher to keep off the field consistently. . . on the other hand, i know i don't feel very comfortable with either him or elvis as a starter when LT or LJ is on the other side of the ball. . .I'd be surprised if engleberger kept his first team status. Besides, Engleberger has been a standout in training camp before. I think Engleberger is simply showing our young ends how to play the position. As the season gets closer, I think he'll be overtaken by someone.

!ceman
08-06-2007, 05:19 AM
I'd be surprised if engleberger kept his first team status. Besides, Engleberger has been a standout in training camp before. I think Engleberger is simply showing our young ends how to play the position. As the season gets closer, I think he'll be overtaken by someone.

Who? Midseason maybe...opener, probably not.

MindField
08-06-2007, 03:36 PM
It wouldn't surprise me to see Warren cut this pre-season, or more likely traded. There are many teams that need DTs, such as the Colts, and those teams won't be too picky, and we could probably fleece them. That said, our depth at DT is less than stellar, and Marcus Thomas can't be counted on as a long term answer quite yet, so we might be reluctant to part with any player that shows an ounce of talent.


I'm not entirely sure what is going on with Mckinley. He's a good player, and while obviously the pick-up of Sam Adams hurts his play time, it's hard for me to understand him being stuck on the 3rd team unless he showed up to camp overweight or did something to get in Shanahan's dog house. The fact that we gave him a large contract suggests something happened to cause him to be buried. Hopefully, he's given a fair shake because once Adams wears down mid-way through the year, I think he'll be our most consistent DT.


I hope they fix this white background soon, ugh.

Sorry, MUG, but I doubt Warren is going anywhere....the reports on him have actually been quite good. McKinley may be the player kept because he can play DT and DE at the expense of a Veal or a Kennedy...but who knows. Sometimes you can tell when a player is in serious contention for a job, and sometimes you just catch a practice when they are looking at different guys....we'll see.

I just can't stand the idea of John Engleberger starting. I don't care what Shanahan or anyone else thinks, Kenard Lang is a better player on Sundays, which is all that counts.

Dean
08-06-2007, 04:39 PM
I just can't stand the idea of John Engleberger starting. I don't care what Shanahan or anyone else thinks, Kenard Lang is a better player on Sundays, which is all that counts.


. . . and this is based upon what? Surely not Lang's play last year.

MindField
08-06-2007, 07:26 PM
. . . and this is based upon what? Surely not Lang's play last year.

Actually, compared to Engelberger's, yes it does...

Dean
08-07-2007, 05:05 AM
Actually, compared to Engelberger's, yes it does...


Lang was a starting defensive end last year. He had 29 tackles (terrible), 7 sacks (okay), 1 pass defensed, and 1 forced fumble. This is not the things that dreams are made of.

His tackle numbers or more accurately his lack of them illustrates his ineffectiveness in stopping the run. Though 6 sacks aren't bad, the Broncos drafted young players to fill that defensive niche. IMO the roster spots must be reserved for players who can produce at a higher level against either the run or the pass. It is my deduction that Bates feels that Engelberger (24 tackles in very limited play) can do a better job versus the run while Dumervil and Moss can handle the pass rush.

MindField
08-07-2007, 03:14 PM
Lang was a starting defensive end last year. He had 29 tackles (terrible), 7 sacks (okay), 1 pass defensed, and 1 forced fumble. This is not the things that dreams are made of.

His tackle numbers or more accurately his lack of them illustrates his ineffectiveness in stopping the run. Though 6 sacks aren't bad, the Broncos drafted young players to fill that defensive niche. IMO the roster spots must be reserved for players who can produce at a higher level against either the run or the pass. It is my deduction that Bates feels that Engelberger (24 tackles in very limited play) can do a better job versus the run while Dumervil and Moss can handle the pass rush.

I thought Lang played OK last year....that's my opinion. Engelberger, to me, is useless. He has never produced anything, and he is not anymore stout against the run at the 252lb he weighs than Lang is, and he is not the pass rusher Lang is.

Now, we are not talking about next year, or when Moss and/or Crowder develops....we are talking about right now, and Lang is a better player than Engelberger, period. His history says so, and if the Broncos think otherwise, I believe it is a move to a) cut Lang and his veteran salary, and b) because they think Crowder can take over the starters job this season from Engelberger.

Whatever, they can start and play Engelberger, but he will not produce jack.

Like Nate Jackson and Mike Leach and a few others that seem to annually make the team, Engelberger and Co. never seem to do much to justify their roster spots.

topscribe
08-07-2007, 04:17 PM
Lang was a starting defensive end last year. He had 29 tackles (terrible), 7 sacks (okay), 1 pass defensed, and 1 forced fumble. This is not the things that dreams are made of.

His tackle numbers or more accurately his lack of them illustrates his ineffectiveness in stopping the run. Though 6 sacks aren't bad, the Broncos drafted young players to fill that defensive niche. IMO the roster spots must be reserved for players who can produce at a higher level against either the run or the pass. It is my deduction that Bates feels that Engelberger (24 tackles in very limited play) can do a better job versus the run while Dumervil and Moss can handle the pass rush.
My sentiments, exactly. If the coaches say Engelberger is superior against the
run, then I believe them. No one can tell me that Lang's contract is any kind of
factor at all as to whether or not they are going to start, or even keep, him.
The emphasis is on winning. That's all. Nothing else. If Engelberger gives them
a better chance at winning, then he will start.

I doubt whether they're worried about arm chair quarterbacks to seem to
think they know more about player evalutation than they are.

Thanks once again for your superior analyses, Dean. :thumb:

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CarolinaPanther
08-07-2007, 04:39 PM
I thought Lang played OK last year....that's my opinion. Engelberger, to me, is useless. He has never produced anything, and he is not anymore stout against the run at the 252lb he weighs than Lang is, and he is not the pass rusher Lang is.

Now, we are not talking about next year, or when Moss and/or Crowder develops....we are talking about right now, and Lang is a better player than Engelberger, period. His history says so, and if the Broncos think otherwise, I believe it is a move to a) cut Lang and his veteran salary, and b) because they think Crowder can take over the starters job this season from Engelberger.

Whatever, they can start and play Engelberger, but he will not produce jack.

Like Nate Jackson and Mike Leach and a few others that seem to annually make the team, Engelberger and Co. never seem to do much to justify their roster spots.

Engelberger had the best run defense metrics on the team and was almost on par to Courtney Brown's numbers. He had a 2.6 yards per attempt rating which was very good. Engelberger plays great run containment.

MindField
08-07-2007, 06:25 PM
Engelberger had the best run defense metrics on the team and was almost on par to Courtney Brown's numbers. He had a 2.6 yards per attempt rating which was very good. Engelberger plays great run containment.

Well, if he was or is so great, why hasn't he been a starter before now?

Why the need to aquire Lang last year at all? I mean, after all, Engelberger was already here...

No, Lang was placed with the third team before TC ever started. The decsion on him was made and for whatever reason, the Broncos look like they will be moving on without him.

The reality is, Engelberger plays some ST's, and Lang does not. Crowder is the future, so they really just need to keep that LDE seat warm for a year, if that. I think the Broncos made the decision to move on without Lang after they drafted Crowder, and that is it. This would not be the first time this sort of decsion has been made about a veteran player.

McKinley is another vet player that looks to be on his way out...

They say Camp is all about competiton, but the reality is, that is not always the case.

topscribe
08-07-2007, 06:28 PM
Well, if he was or is so great, why hasn't he been a starter before now?

Why the need to aquire Lang last year at all? I mean, after all, Engelberger was already here...

No, Lang was placed with the third team before TC ever started. The decsion on him was made and for whatever reason, the Broncos look like they will be moving on without him.

The reality is, Engelberger plays some ST's, and Lang does not. Crowder is the future, so they really just need to keep that LDE seat warm for a year, if that. I think the Broncos made the decision to move on without Lang after they drafted Crowder, and that is it. This would not be the first time this sort of decsion has been made about a veteran player.

McKinley is another vet player that looks to be on his way out...

They say Camp is all about competiton, but the reality is, that is not always the case.
Who cares if Engelberger wasn't a starter before this year? If he's good
enough this year, then he's good enough this year. *shrugs*

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MindField
08-07-2007, 06:40 PM
Who cares if Engelberger wasn't a starter before this year? If he's good
enough this year, then he's good enough this year. *shrugs*

-----

He's not.

That will prove itself out over time.

Shanahan has not always been a personnel guru over his time here...he has made some curious decsions in the past. This just looks like another of those.

If a guy like Engelberger has not done a thing in his previous six years or so in the League, it's pretty naive to think he can just flip a switch and suddenly become a legit starter.

BTW, according to one observer, Lang had an outstanding practice today....it will be pretty funny if he comes back and takes Engelbergers job:coffee:

gobroncsnv
08-07-2007, 06:57 PM
They say Camp is all about competiton, but the reality is, that is not always the case.

I would have to say that Shanny's camps ARE about competition. He plays whoever puts us, in his and the coaches' opinions, in the best position to win. Rod Smith - undrafted, TD - 6th round.... this list goes on for a long time.

dogfish
08-07-2007, 08:51 PM
Well, if he was or is so great, why hasn't he been a starter before now?

Why the need to aquire Lang last year at all? I mean, after all, Engelberger was already here...

No, Lang was placed with the third team before TC ever started. The decsion on him was made and for whatever reason, the Broncos look like they will be moving on without him.

The reality is, Engelberger plays some ST's, and Lang does not. Crowder is the future, so they really just need to keep that LDE seat warm for a year, if that. I think the Broncos made the decision to move on without Lang after they drafted Crowder, and that is it. This would not be the first time this sort of decsion has been made about a veteran player.

McKinley is another vet player that looks to be on his way out...

They say Camp is all about competiton, but the reality is, that is not always the case.

i've been complaining about the freakin' browncos for years, including mckinley when we acquired him-- i sure as hell won't be shedding any tears to see any of them go!

CarolinaPanther
08-07-2007, 09:17 PM
The fact is Engelberger won't be cut at the expense of Lang.

Our season was cut short because we couldn't stop the run, not because of the lack of pass rush.

If we could have stopped LT, LJ and Frank Gore, we would have been in the playoffs. The fact is, late in the game, teams would run over us to come back, and they did it successfully.

Dean
08-09-2007, 10:01 AM
[QUOTE=MindField;1891751]He's not.

That will prove itself out over time.

Yes, time will tell one way or the other. However Bates must make these decissions soon and based upon what he believes to be in the best interests of the Broncos' defense

Shanahan has not always been a personnel guru over his time here...he has made some curious decsions in the past. This just looks like another of those.

I could be wrong but it looks to me like the front office is pretty leaving the defense in Bates' capable hands.

If a guy like Engelberger has not done a thing in his previous six years or so in the League, it's pretty naive to think he can just flip a switch and suddenly become a legit starter.

In terms of number of plays that he participated in last year he outplayed Lang in terms of stopping the run

BTW, according to one observer, Lang had an outstanding practice today....it will be pretty funny if he comes back and takes Engelbergers job:coffee:

. . . and several other days it has been reported that Engelberger was playing the run much better than Lang. It depends upon the day and the observer. The job belongs to whoever can take it from the rest. It isn't just granted to someone. [QUOTE]

Javalon
08-09-2007, 10:56 AM
i've been complaining about the freakin' browncos for years, including mckinley when we acquired him-- i sure as hell won't be shedding any tears to see any of them go!
You know, I'm not generally a big critic of Shanny & Co.'s personnel decisions but I do think they screwed up here. Not so much because they acquired all the Browncos but rather because they had to acquire them.

I don't point fingers at Shanny for any mistakes he made in regards to who drafted. Instead, I was frustrated at what positions he was drafting or, more accurately, what positions he wasn't drafting. If the Broncos had just sunk a 1st to 3rd round pick on a defensive linemen every other year, we probably wouldn't have been in the pickle we were in. But from '98 through '06 we spend exactly two 3rd-rounders and one 2nd-rounder (who never played a down) on defensive linemen.

I'm a big believer in the philosophy that success in football starts with both lines. I understand that our unique requirements for offensive linemen allows us to find gems (for us) later in the draft. But we have always had the same requirements for defensive linemen as the rest of the league. Thus the lack of attention in the draft paid to such a crucial area completely mystified me.

This past draft people were endorsing the idea that we trade away the entire draft (and a 1st and 2nd next year) to trade up and draft Calvin Johnson. I can't tell you how that would have ripped my guts to pieces. The emphasis on the defensive line this past draft is exactly what this team has been needing for a very long time. And if one or two of the new guys don't work out we've still got our 1st and 2nd next year to try to make amends. :D