Couldn't find the "draft" thread... so here

[StlBroncosFan]

Ran across this and thought I would share. It pretty much tells where the whole draft scare came from.

I couldn't get a direct link to work so go to the link below and on the right click on Politics and then click on Dirty Politics and watch the video. I didn't see this reported on any liberal networks. I wonder why?

http://www.foxnews.com

[StlBroncosFan]

LOL

I agree that the Government is supposed to work for us and not act like God. A good example of that is how the elected judges are acting on their own against standing law and constitutional issues because it suits them and their constituency. These judges acting on their own need booted out of office.

I only mentioned the laws to show you that our gov does things everyday that are not agreed upon by ALL the people. Does it make it right? There is a pro and con for both sides of every issue.

Seat belt laws? I never saw a vote on it. I had never even seen anything at all on it other than "buckle up - it's the law". It was a stretch and not even a good stretch to compare, I was just making a point.

[mattos]

Originally posted by StlBroncosFan
mattos,

Every day you are forced to do what the government wants you to do. Albeit not "die for your country" but laws are in place for reason.

If you live in Colorado you can ride a motorcycle without a helmet (at least when I lived there) but here in Missouri it is illegal. Everyone must wear seat belts. What if I don't want to? Doesn't matter..here's your fine. People can't smoke pot but can booze it up. What is the sense in that? Government can't tax it because you can grow it in your back yard?

well first off, i do disagree w/ some of the laws you listed. however, there is a huge huge huge difference between having to wear a helmet on a bike and having to leave your job and family and lose your life in some foreign land.

take a alternative example: suppose while we men are all dying in iran, the gov decides to "draft" the women and children into a domestic workforce for our mines and farms in order to support the war effort. is this forced labor not slavery? i can see no difference between that and a military draft - if any, the draft is worse b/c of the likelihood of death. the logic for both is the same: the gov has determined that your body is needed to achieve its goals. the ends simply do not justify the means - especially in a society such as our that professes that the people are sovereign. that is another difference btwn the seatbelt laws and a draft - seatbelt laws exist b/c, in theory at least, the people want them and have expressed this via their representatives . . . in contrast, a draft is only necessary when the people don't support the government action sufficiently - if they did support the action, they would have enlisted on their own. IMO if the people don't want the war, then the government should respect that - the government is our servant not our god.

[StlBroncosFan]

mattos,

Every day you are forced to do what the government wants you to do. Albeit not "die for your country" but laws are in place for reason.

If you live in Colorado you can ride a motorcycle without a helmet (at least when I lived there) but here in Missouri it is illegal. Everyone must wear seat belts. What if I don't want to? Doesn't matter..here's your fine. People can't smoke pot but can booze it up. What is the sense in that? Government can't tax it because you can grow it in your back yard?

I agree to meet you half way. But yours, mine and everyone's lives are enslaved in some fashion every day. I think the enslavement argument is there but weak at best because we are all bound by Government rules already.

Jared,

I totally agree with you on the wages of the military. For Pete's sake pay these people! Military, Police and Firemen should be paid at a rate that is fitting their risks.

As far as where they recruit, it is bad as well as good. Bad because they target people that are presumed not to have an out in society. Inner city's, small country towns etc. Good because sometimes this gives them that out and provides a means for free education plus builds character and respect. A lot of my friends went into the military and it has opened many doors for them. I was from a very small town in Missouri. Population of about 2000.

[Jared]

Originally posted by mattos
was there a draft during the revolutionary war? (i won't comment on the civil war as i am sure my arguments would cause the thread to burst into flames. i'll let my avatar speak for itself )

i see your point as to the larger picture; world war 2 being the strongest example i can see.

i can't support the ultimate violation of liberty though (forcing someone to go die) as an appropriate means of securing liberty. if our society is one where the preservation of the state is the ultimate good, then a draft makes sense. and in modern american, that may be the case. i, however, see liberty as the ultimate good, even at the expense of the state (thus i would rather to see the US split into smaller parts where the people rule themselves than see the central government force everyone to live in a manner they dislike). a draft is, by definition, only necessary when a large portion of the people do not support the military activity. that, i believe, is their choice. if that means the british take over than so be it. it is better for the people to choose their fate than to have it forced upon them.

since liberty is, IMO, the greatest good for the state, i simply cannot support forcing others to go and die against their will. one person doesn't have the right to do that to someone else and, IMO, neither does a group of people (whether they wield the power of the government or not).

There's a lot more going in behind people's thoughts on the drafts than I realize.

I am not a fan of the draft because I believe people who voluntarily sign up have better morale, and have more desire to be good soldiers and do their jobs to the best of their ability, even if it means death. Draftees may be physiacally fit, and have no psychological reason to disqualify them, but that doesn't mean they are fit to be in the armed forces. Ultimately, as long as people realize that a service of draftees may have more cases of abandonment and AWOL, etc etc. I am not syaing that it ok for people to do this, but its something that you have to tolerate if you want a draft. That some people will just say "Screw you, I am leaving."

I think that one of the ways to get more people in the armed forces is to have citizens buckle up and tell our congressman that its sucks that they would rather spend money on campaigns and pork barrel poolitics than defense and infrastructure. Voters tend to be apathetic, so these guys vote how they please, and no one cares. So the military always gets put on the back burner.
Military people, especially college educated ones, need to be paid a more competative salary. Our best and brightest aren't dumb. They know they can earn 2-3 times more in the private sector. And the enlisted guys and gals out of high school have it really bad. They make a piittance. Money isn't everything, but it certainly would help the recruiting pitch.

And finally, recruiters disproportionately target minority and lowr income neighborhoods. That doesn't mean that those folks don't make good soldiers, but it means that a lot of bright minds are never even approached by recruiters because they were lucky enough to be born in the 'burbs. SO military service never even crosses their minds.

[NJBRONCOSFAN]

The draft as we know it was first implemented in 1863 (obviously for the civil war).

[mattos]

Originally posted by StlBroncosFan
I don't think protecting your country and the people in it is slavery though. I guess if they hadn't drafted people back in the day...we would all be under British rule right now. Or worse, maybe if they hadn't drafted during OUR civil war people would still be enslaved. The draft has it's purpose when warranted.

was there a draft during the revolutionary war? (i won't comment on the civil war as i am sure my arguments would cause the thread to burst into flames. i'll let my avatar speak for itself )

i see your point as to the larger picture; world war 2 being the strongest example i can see.

i can't support the ultimate violation of liberty though (forcing someone to go die) as an appropriate means of securing liberty. if our society is one where the preservation of the state is the ultimate good, then a draft makes sense. and in modern american, that may be the case. i, however, see liberty as the ultimate good, even at the expense of the state (thus i would rather to see the US split into smaller parts where the people rule themselves than see the central government force everyone to live in a manner they dislike). a draft is, by definition, only necessary when a large portion of the people do not support the military activity. that, i believe, is their choice. if that means the british take over than so be it. it is better for the people to choose their fate than to have it forced upon them.

since liberty is, IMO, the greatest good for the state, i simply cannot support forcing others to go and die against their will. one person doesn't have the right to do that to someone else and, IMO, neither does a group of people (whether they wield the power of the government or not).

[StlBroncosFan]

Mattos,

You make some pretty good points. I can see your side completely. I too agree that the Swiss have a lock on staying nuetral and benefitting from it.

I don't think protecting your country and the people in it is slavery though. I guess if they hadn't drafted people back in the day...we would all be under British rule right now. Or worse, maybe if they hadn't drafted during OUR civil war people would still be enslaved. The draft has it's purpose when warranted.

[mattos]

Originally posted by StlBroncosFan
I have a question about the draft for those that oppose it. If indeed Iran is building nukes and have plans to use them. Should the US reinstate the draft to protect our interests?

i would say no, we shouldn't draft even to protect our nuclear interests.
(1) the draft is slavery and therefore, on principle, i can never support it. furthermore, i must also oppose all drafts as one who believes that the government should protect the liberty of its citizens first and foremost. the people are free to decide whether or not they wish to support military action themselves: if they do then they will join. if they do not, then the consequences of not joining will fall on them. i would prefer that to allowing our government to enslave its citizens.
(2) iran is a soveriegn nation and as such has a right to develop weapons just as we do. i believe mutual assured destruction is enough to prevent their use. another method is to extend economic relations as much as possible. not only do economic relations prevent nuclear warfare (who's going to nuke the guy they are making $$$ off of?), but they do so w/o risking any lives and make us $ at the same time. look at switzerland, they've remained politically and economically neutral and no one seems to want to nuke them or fly planes into their buildings, or "hate their freedoms." we could learn a thing or 2 from the swiss i think.
(3) every time we attack a country before it gets nukes, we send a message to all other countries that if they don't want to get attacked by us, they'd better get the nukes as soon as possible. i suspect iran's interest in nukes was only increased by the different treatment that iraq and n. korea have recieved - i know if i was a dictator i'd be trying to nukes as soon as i could; entirely for self preservation issues.

[Jared]

Originally posted by rcsodak
...and this is why they're looking into changing the tenure's in iraq/afghan. from 12 mos. to 7 mos.?
You libs......keep up with the rhetoric......

Did you not read my post on how I determine to delete threads dealing with politics?

We don't have to allow them you know. And I think that so far this is a reasonable discussion. Although this was very mild, that is how it starts.

Please don't make me have to delete it.

[NOLABroncofan]

Originally posted by StlBroncosFan
I have a question about the draft for those that oppose it. If indeed Iran is building nukes and have plans to use them. Should the US reinstate the draft to protect our interests?

Again, my stance is that we should not reinstate the draft but if Iran were to build the weapons and after much UN diplomacy I think it would be necessary to correct the issue. If we do not have enough support from the world we have to once again protect ourselves (since we are the most hated) from the potential threat. If this means draft then I think we have to do it. Unfortunately.

I don't oppose a draft persay ( I still don't believe we will have need of one unless under the most dire circumstances ). Personally I think all able bodied youth coming out of High School should do a two year hitch in one of the branches of service, but that's another discussion.

I do not believe that a draft should or would be enacted to protect our interests in the nuke capability theatre. If that was the case, we would have started one long ago when nuke technology was first developed.

Again.... the only reason I see a draft becoming necessary is IF we end up in another WW; and again... I don't see this happening.

Nuff said...

[NJBRONCOSFAN]

Originally posted by StlBroncosFan
I agree that we probably don't have to worry about a nuke coming across the ocean (especially if we continue with the missile defense program) but there is a possibility to protect American interests over seas. Military bases, Ebassys etc.. We also need to worry about smuggling these things into the country. If a country that is a terrorist country or supporter of terrorists were able to develop nukes and then smuggle or sell to someone that smuggles them into the States, we need to nip it in the bud.

All true, but none of these things should eventually lead up to a draft. We had to do this all durign the cold war as well, and even after the fall of the U.S.S.R. Protecting our entities overseas can definitely be done without a draft.
If your saying that we might need to get to Iran before any of these attacks happen, then it goes back to the beginning. There probably might be a need for a draft. Would i want to fight? especially considering the reasons initially given for war in Iraq...No.

[StlBroncosFan]

I agree that we probably don't have to worry about a nuke coming across the ocean (especially if we continue with the missile defense program) but there is a possibility to protect American interests over seas. Military bases, Ebassys etc.. We also need to worry about smuggling these things into the country. If a country that is a terrorist country or supporter of terrorists were able to develop nukes and then smuggle or sell to someone that smuggles them into the States, we need to nip it in the bud.

[NJBRONCOSFAN]

I don't think if they were able to get nukes that they would be able to actually hit us with them...rather they have stated a desire to strike against Israel.
I have no desire to defend Israel, which is all but in name a terrorist state. I wouldn't want to put my life on the line for them just because there are many in Washington getting money from these people.

[StlBroncosFan]

I have a question about the draft for those that oppose it. If indeed Iran is building nukes and have plans to use them. Should the US reinstate the draft to protect our interests?

Again, my stance is that we should not reinstate the draft but if Iran were to build the weapons and after much UN diplomacy I think it would be necessary to correct the issue. If we do not have enough support from the world we have to once again protect ourselves (since we are the most hated) from the potential threat. If this means draft then I think we have to do it. Unfortunately.