101 Ethics

[CanDB]

The Bounty mess in New Orleans is pretty sad, but also reminds me of the age old debate.......do you do something "bad" if you can get away with it? I am not sure, but I am inclined to think that there are varying degrees of similar activity around the NFL (over the years), but as of now, they have not been caught. Then again, I could be way off base here. I think the fact the Saints were warned about the situation is why they have been punished to the extent they have (so far)......and this before the tapes we got wind of in the last couple of days. To put a close to this example.....I recently read from an ex NFLer that bounties of pretty nasty consequence have been around for a long time. They just weren't/haven't been caught.

I digress. This article is not specifically about the bounty mess.

But here's the basic question for you, and I wonder what you think about it.....if you know that you can get away with it, do you do things that are basically wrong? Isn't that unethical at any level?

For sure there are varying degrees of wrong. For example, not stopping at a stop sign, in an open, desolate country spot may not be such a big deal. It's still wrong, but common sense tells you that is not intrinsically a bad thing, whether this is an area that is policed or not. There are various factors involved that make things wrong.

But think a little bigger in terms of impact.......if you knew you could get a deal on a purchase because the price tag was clearly in error, would you? Or if you knew that you got credit for something you weren't really responsible for, do you accept it?

These are still relatively small offences (pending the level of the so called reward).....now consider this one.....what if you had a fairly big car accident, and you knew you were the primary offender, and yet the only nearby witness (who may have been overwhelmed at the time) mistakenly reported that you were not the instigator. Would you live with that, even though the witness was convinced that you were innocent, and police had no other info to dismiss that evidence?

The level and degree of consequence goes up.......and I won't go there. Clearly, the smaller the offence, the less critical the impact. But still, just because you can get away with things.......do you? I am sure many of us have on some small level....but even then, I would contest that small things can lead to bigger ones in time. What is acceptable? Can you draw that line?

Common sense and decent values go a long way here......

[InsaneBlaze23]

Touching on the general topic and the secondary topic.

Mike Golic said bounty programs was going on during his time of playing. He said he never got paid to injure guys, but it doesn't mean some teammates or other players on other teams didn't.

My grandfather, whom is a former Bengal and Packer, said pretty much the same thing. People was giving more money for injuring players.

It all goes to what is known and what you said. Getting caught.

Michael Vick didn't think dog fighting was wrong, he wasn't sorry for dog fighting, he was sorry he got caught. If he didn't get caught, it's likely he'd still be holding fights at his home.

I think everyone on the planet is guilty of doing something bad/wrong knowing the possibilities of getting away with it. It depends on the level of what they think the bad is.

Most things done are small scale.

[CanDB]

Touching on the general topic and the secondary topic.

Mike Golic said bounty programs was going on during his time of playing. He said he never got paid to injure guys, but it doesn't mean some teammates or other players on other teams didn't.

My grandfather, whom is a former Bengal and Packer, said pretty much the same thing. People was giving more money for injuring players.

It all goes to what is known and what you said. Getting caught.

Michael Vick didn't think dog fighting was wrong, he wasn't sorry for dog fighting, he was sorry he got caught. If he didn't get caught, it's likely he'd still be holding fights at his home.

I think everyone on the planet is guilty of doing something bad/wrong knowing the possibilities of getting away with it. It depends on the level of what they think the bad is.

Most things done are small scale.

Interesting value add bud......thx for that.

[ebsoria]

It comes down to the individual. Like IB said above me about Vick; he didn't think dog fighting was wrong. He wasn't sorry. He was sorry he got caught.

Methinks it's also risk versus reward. If I'm out in the country and that stop sign pops up and it's pretty obvious(again, in my opinion) that a complete stop isn't needed, then yes, I'll slow and roll through. Now.. that stop sign in a busy intersection with people crossing and all kinds of distractions? Yes. I'll stop and then proceed when clear.

Your specific example about the accident. Yes, it's still about the individual. If I knew I was responsible, yet all blame was on the other driver, then yes, I'd admit it was my fault. Whether or not the officials believe me is another question, but I;ll go to bed that night knowing I did what I felt was right.

Let's take it a step further and pose this one at you Can;

The other day there was a news story about an 11 year old girl who accused her father of sexual misconduct. She told on him. She told the police it happened. She told the judge it happened. She was adamant it happened. Dad went to prison on a 15 year sentence.

Flash forward. She's now 23 and coming out and saying- "I lied. I lied because I was mad at my dad and wanted him to leave me alone. He did nothing."

They let dad out. He's now a free man. His life has been ruined. His family thought he was guilty of what his daughter accuses him of. His career is over. He can't "start-over". He has been in prison suffering countless horrors of his own.

What would YOU do if you were dad?

[InsaneBlaze23]

It comes down to the individual. Like IB said above me about Vick; he didn't think dog fighting was wrong. He wasn't sorry. He was sorry he got caught.

Methinks it's also risk versus reward. If I'm out in the country and that stop sign pops up and it's pretty obvious(again, in my opinion) that a complete stop isn't needed, then yes, I'll slow and roll through. Now.. that stop sign in a busy intersection with people crossing and all kinds of distractions? Yes. I'll stop and then proceed when clear.

Your specific example about the accident. Yes, it's still about the individual. If I knew I was responsible, yet all blame was on the other driver, then yes, I'd admit it was my fault. Whether or not the officials believe me is another question, but I;ll go to bed that night knowing I did what I felt was right.

Let's take it a step further and pose this one at you Can;

The other day there was a news story about an 11 year old girl who accused her father of sexual misconduct. She told on him. She told the police it happened. She told the judge it happened. She was adamant it happened. Dad went to prison on a 15 year sentence.

Flash forward. She's now 23 and coming out and saying- "I lied. I lied because I was mad at my dad and wanted him to leave me alone. He did nothing."

They let dad out. He's now a free man. His life has been ruined. His family thought he was guilty of what his daughter accuses him of. His career is over. He can't "start-over". He has been in prison suffering countless horrors of his own.

What would YOU do if you were dad?

Never heard about that story. That's pretty messed up, but at the same time, it goes along with the little boy who cried wolf. This girl, if ever accuse someone of a sexual assault, nobody will believe her rather it's truth or another lie.

As for her father, in most cases a weak man would commit suicide. He'd feel he has nothing to live for, spent his life in prison because his own child lied. His family thought he was a sick (insert word), nobody called, nobody wrote letters. Jobs don't want him, because they think he touched his little girl.

Nobody would blame him if he felt like living isn't a option, but being strong and finding a way inside yourself to forgive your family for turning their back on you, could gain strength.

[100%Broncoholic]

Another example is the judge in Texas who was secretly taped by his daughter. Now I don't condone what he did at all, but once he takes away her allowance and BMW then she releases it a few years later... Hmmm why not do it prior?

Common sense got thrown out w manners a long time ago sadly.

[ebsoria]

Never heard about that story. That's pretty messed up, but at the same time, it goes along with the little boy who cried wolf. This girl, if ever accuse someone of a sexual assault, nobody will believe her rather it's truth or another lie.

As for her father, in most cases a weak man would commit suicide. He'd feel he has nothing to live for, spent his life in prison because his own child lied. His family thought he was a sick (insert word), nobody called, nobody wrote letters. Jobs don't want him, because they think he touched his little girl.

Nobody would blame him if he felt like living isn't a option, but being strong and finding a way inside yourself to forgive your family for turning their back on you, could gain strength.

You make a very good point. This man's strength is to be admired.

[Remedy]

How does one accuse her father of that..
and then let him rot in jail like that...
what an abhorrent human being.

[CanDB]

It comes down to the individual. Like IB said above me about Vick; he didn't think dog fighting was wrong. He wasn't sorry. He was sorry he got caught.

Methinks it's also risk versus reward. If I'm out in the country and that stop sign pops up and it's pretty obvious(again, in my opinion) that a complete stop isn't needed, then yes, I'll slow and roll through. Now.. that stop sign in a busy intersection with people crossing and all kinds of distractions? Yes. I'll stop and then proceed when clear.

Your specific example about the accident. Yes, it's still about the individual. If I knew I was responsible, yet all blame was on the other driver, then yes, I'd admit it was my fault. Whether or not the officials believe me is another question, but I;ll go to bed that night knowing I did what I felt was right.

Let's take it a step further and pose this one at you Can;

The other day there was a news story about an 11 year old girl who accused her father of sexual misconduct. She told on him. She told the police it happened. She told the judge it happened. She was adamant it happened. Dad went to prison on a 15 year sentence.

Flash forward. She's now 23 and coming out and saying- "I lied. I lied because I was mad at my dad and wanted him to leave me alone. He did nothing."

They let dad out. He's now a free man. His life has been ruined. His family thought he was guilty of what his daughter accuses him of. His career is over. He can't "start-over". He has been in prison suffering countless horrors of his own.

What would YOU do if you were dad?

Eb........very difficult topic you offer for discussion......and I am not going to read if anyone else responds.....that way I give my view unsolicited.

I have two daughters who are just a little older than the person in this story. First and foremost......I can not imagine the pain that fellow went through. I just can't. Poor man.

(By the way......the assumption is that he was innocent, and not because she is trying to right a wrong on his part.)

Okay......let me try to be logical......but to be honest eb, I can't say that I would ever know what to do, unless it actually happened. But here goes:

First, because my life is ruined, I probably wouldn't be thinking too straight, not to mention the horrors of prison life, and the endless days of complete sadness and disbelief. Your own child has got you here, and you were innocent. I also believe that if the legal system failed me the way it did him,
I'd have reservations about anything going forward. So....bottom line, I'm shattered.

I guess by then, if it hadn't already happened, hopefully I would have clung to faith, because what else would I have? Life has to have some meaning. I can only hope I would have found a higher purpose in all of this, that makes me stronger than pretty much everyone around me.

And because I have little left in this world, and because this person is still my daughter, I think somehow, someway I would look to forgive her (I think I could), as well as do what I could to teach her something from all of this disaster.....and make her commit to helping others in some way, as an act of repayment. And maybe I could help others who have been dealt such a terrible hand.

But eb......this is all speculation. I am not sure I would be strong enough to come out of this with my head on straight. This is almost too hard to imagine. Again, I feel so sorry for that man.....and I think his daughter will need some serious help as well, to try to fix what is broken.

[HavoK471]

Common sense got thrown out w manners a long time ago sadly.

Disagree

We only hear and normally only want to hear the good of the past. You're blinding yourself if you don't think there is common sense and mannerism in the world today. Or if you think it was incredibly strong in the past.

You hear stories about how parents used to force manners on their kids. And that brings up a question I've always asked. Is a good deed still good if the good intention wasn't ever there?

[CanDB]

Disagree

We only hear and normally only want to hear the good of the past. You're blinding yourself if you don't think there is common sense and mannerism in the world today. Or if you think it was incredibly strong in the past.

You hear stories about how parents used to force manners on their kids. And that brings up a question I've always asked. Is a good deed still good if the good intention wasn't ever there?

I have some concern about the state of common sense these days........maybe it's because we have so many laws and rules that have been enforced on us to protect this or that, to the point where the common sense approach is not as "well received". I definitely believe people are more into themselves then when I grew up. Fewer thank yous and your welcomes, more bumping into you in spaces, and that type of stuff. It may not be really significant, but a lot of my friends say the same thing......and it's not like we've all "lost it".

As for the good deed.......for me it's not, if you didn't intend it that way. Then again, I'd rather you do the good deed, then not.....as long as you weren't taking a profit, and others lost. If the net result is a plus, I can live with it. BUT.......greed and other self related initiatives should never be rewarded.

[CanDB]

I have some concern about the state of common sense these days........maybe it's because we have so many laws and rules that have been enforced on us to protect this or that, to the point where the common sense approach is not as "well received". I definitely believe people are more into themselves then when I grew up. Fewer thank yous and your welcomes, more bumping into you in spaces, and that type of stuff. It may not be really significant, but a lot of my friends say the same thing......and it's not like we've all "lost it".

As for the good deed.......for me it's not, if you didn't intend it that way. Then again, I'd rather you do the good deed, then not.....as long as you weren't taking a profit, and others lost. If the net result is a plus, I can live with it. BUT.......greed and other self related initiatives should never be rewarded.

further to (can't edit these days)......with regard to the possibility that we have too many laws and rules laid on us to protect this or that......this is just a generality that I have (just) considered, and that common sense is stymied in environments where there are too many rules and regulations. In that case, instead of going with our guts, and our well-honed instincts, we basically follow the game as planned for us. And if so, that could also lead to diminished levels of innovation and creativity.

Yikes......I better stop now before this domino effect (of mine) spreads all the way to the varying tastes / quality of drinking water. WELL now (see what I did there).....that may lead me to another thread......tap water vs bottled water.......but another time, another place.

[InsaneBlaze23]

Disagree

We only hear and normally only want to hear the good of the past. You're blinding yourself if you don't think there is common sense and mannerism in the world today. Or if you think it was incredibly strong in the past.

You hear stories about how parents used to force manners on their kids. And that brings up a question I've always asked. Is a good deed still good if the good intention wasn't ever there?

I don't know, this generation lacks a good deal of common sense....among others things being lacked.

Mannerism is at a all time low, so low the lowest stock is higher. Not saying neither exist.

I can't say that in the "old days" things was better, I'm lead to believe things was better. I'm only 20 so I wouldn't know.

But I do know one thing, we are living in the age of stupidity, so nothing should surprise anyone.

[InsaneBlaze23]

As for rules and common sense.

Very few my age and younger care for rules, so I'd say that today's rules don't really effect common sense.

[HavoK471]

I'm going to have to disagree again

Not saying things are better now but I also don't believe they were better in the past. People have always broken rules, lacked common courtesy and so on. The world isn't getting worse and worse.

We remember what we want to remember. It's the same idea/argument for when people state music from previous generations is far superior than present day music. We hear about great artists in the past and compare them to the guys playing now and say things used to be better, people were more talented and lyrics contained meaningful content.

Most of the time that's just what we want to believe. We're so busy reminiscing about the past and complaining about the present that we forget to enjoy things until their gone.


The negatives will only last for so long in your mind, the positives will usually last a lifetime. You forget about the kid that picked on you in school and instead remember all the friends you made. Just because you don't remember the bully doesn't mean he wasn't there.


Again this is just my opinion, things may have been better in the past. I wouldn't know, I'm still young so my argument isn't very reliable. I just want people to realize there is good in your lives. Don't miss out on it.