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  • Originally posted by samparnell View Post
    My house is at 7500' asl. I've not seen a scorpion during the thirty-six years we've lived here. Haven't seen a rattlesnake either.
    I've only ever seen one scorpion in AZ ...

    In all the years I lived in NM, I never saw rattlesnakes either .... not as lucky in AZ. I don't walk my dogs on the trails out here between April to October because of all the rattlers. Wasn't on a trail just a road a couple months back, and my dog was leaning over to sniff a rattler .... so now just the parks for a couple more months. Lucky he didn't get bit, hate those snakes ....
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    • Originally posted by samparnell View Post
      My house is at 7500' asl. I've not seen a scorpion during the thirty-six years we've lived here. Haven't seen a rattlesnake either.
      Ah, well, there goes that opportunity I guess.

      We get rattle snakes around here. I missed one once thinking it was a pole or pipe that was in the street. Before I realized what it was and went back to kill it, it was gone quickly. It was in a neighborhood with houses all around.

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      • Originally posted by BroncosDivision View Post
        You sure that'll do it?
        Well, 5 times would be a good start. It takes a few full readings to really, really understand it.

        And it's place in history.

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        • Originally posted by Western Bronco View Post
          Well, 5 times would be a good start. It takes a few full readings to really, really understand it.

          And it's place in history.
          Ah, the history of U.S. Government. Its origin is found in the Roman Republic.
          "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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                    • Originally posted by samparnell View Post
                      Ah, the history of U.S. Government. Its origin is found in the Roman Republic.
                      Well, not really. You have to go even further back than that. Ancient Greece. The home of democracy. We should all thank Cliesthenes (sp?) for the concept of open, public elections. (Originally, black rock or white rock was how you voted.)

                      Rome may have added the concept of a "Republic," with a senate, etc. But you gotta thank the Greeks.


                      But my point is more how U.S. government was designed in stark contrast to 99% of all the other forms of "government" that existed before our Constitution. i.e., the "purpose" of U.S. government. Who was to be protected from what.

                      (Hint: All previous forms of government are right there, on one of those two sides. The bulk of our founders' form of government is also right there on one of those two sides. But since most Americans tend not to bother/care to actually read the Constitution, nobody has a clue.) And there is virtually no "Civic" classes anymore.

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                      • Originally posted by Western Bronco View Post
                        Well, not really. You have to go even further back than that. Ancient Greece. The home of democracy. We should all thank Cliesthenes (sp?) for the concept of open, public elections. (Originally, black rock or white rock was how you voted.)

                        Rome may have added the concept of a "Republic," with a senate, etc. But you gotta thank the Greeks.


                        But my point is more how U.S. government was designed in stark contrast to 99% of all the other forms of "government" that existed before our Constitution. i.e., the "purpose" of U.S. government. Who was to be protected from what.

                        (Hint: All previous forms of government are right there, on one of those two sides. The bulk of our founders' form of government is also right there on one of those two sides. But since most Americans tend not to bother/care to actually read the Constitution, nobody has a clue.) And there is virtually no "Civic" classes anymore.
                        According to The Federalist Papers, the U.S. Constitution was modeled on the Roman Republic.

                        The authors of The Federalist Papers, Hamilton, Madison and Jay, wrote under Roman pseudonyms such as Publius and Cato.

                        For example, the Electoral College was copied from the way the citizens of the Roman Republic elected consuls, praetors and quaestors annually. It is a more limited form of voting than the ancient Athenian model.

                        Thuycicides and Aristotle wrote quite a bit about the Constitution of Athens including the reforms of Cleisthenes but, aside from the concept of voting, very little from the Athenian Constitution found its way into the U.S. Constitution.
                        "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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                        • Originally posted by samparnell View Post
                          According to The Federalist Papers, the U.S. Constitution was modeled on the Roman Republic.

                          The authors of The Federalist Papers, Hamilton, Madison and Jay, wrote under Roman pseudonyms such as Publius and Cato.

                          For example, the Electoral College was copied from the way the citizens of the Roman Republic elected consuls, praetors and quaestors annually. It is a more limited form of voting than the ancient Athenian model.

                          Thuycicides and Aristotle wrote quite a bit about the Constitution of Athens including the reforms of Cleisthenes but, aside from the concept of voting, very little from the Athenian Constitution found its way into the U.S. Constitution.
                          And I never said it did.

                          I was commenting that we needed to go even further back, to start at square one, the very concept of a "democracy," with We the People actually voting.

                          And then move forward to squares 2, 3, ...

                          That's why I did follow with a reference to the Roman concept of a "republic," as did Madison in his Federalist Paper (#10?), when he was concerned about mob rule (absolute democracy). So, the smart ones made sure a pure mob-rule democracy was tempered with a republican structure. And so we have what you yourself cited as a "more limited form of voting..." A republic.

                          My point re the Greek was that it was, as far as any account I've ever read, the first [large society] democracy, where you got to vote for your leaders, and didn't have to wage war in order to change leaders. (A message sadly lost in the late 1850s-1860s.)


                          So, I was referencing the Greek influence as the initial spark of democracy. (Aside from a small tribe voting on which direction to look for food.)

                          And I never claimed anything from the "Athenian Constitution found its way into [COTUS]".



                          But, again, my main point is that the U.S. government was set up contrary to virtually every other form of government prior. Where every "victor" set himself up as the sole arbiter of policy. Where every general, dictator, emperor, tyrant, etc., planted himself at the top of the government, and it was basically all for himself, and the few close allies he trusted. A pure top-down system. Screw everybody else, unless they faithfully served the victor.


                          Compare that with what the victorious leader of the American Revolution did. General George Washington did NOT take control, did not take over the government, and did not immediately set up a world of, by, and for himself, the victor. Quite the opposite. He actually laid down his sword, and turned the power over to OTHERS. (Can anyone find any prior example of that throughout history? Don't think so.)

                          That others eventually elected him our first "leader," is after the fact, and, quite possibly, due to his noble gesture. After all, compared to other victors throughout history, this made Washington appear to be someone the rest of us could trust: They saw that he had his chance to do what the others did, and assume power and take control over all others. He did not.


                          So, thanks in part to George, we didn't get yet another top-down form of despotism, where a very few could prosper, and screw the rest of us. Instead we [eventually, and not without some difficulty,] created a system for We the People. Quite a different concept of government than all those prior.

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                          • The Roman Republic was prior to the U.S. Constitution.

                            George Washington has been called Cincinnatus after the Roman Dictator, Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus, who served in that capacity several times, but always relinquished power when his term was up. That happened over two thousand years before George Washington.

                            BTW, ancient Athenian civil office holders were not elected. They were chosen by lot.
                            "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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                            • Originally posted by samparnell View Post
                              The Roman Republic was prior to the U.S. Constitution.

                              George Washington has been called Cincinnatus after the Roman Dictator, Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus, who served in that capacity several times, but always relinquished power when his term was up. That happened over two thousand years before George Washington.

                              BTW, ancient Athenian civil office holders were not elected. They were chosen by lot.

                              1) Well, DUH! Who doesn't know the Roman Republic was prior to COTUS? (Maybe you need to reread posts?)

                              2) What's the point re Cincinnatus? 2000 years earlier? Random words don't really say much.

                              3) Yeah, right. And that's how Silliestofall became ruler of Greece. Please.

                              Next.

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                              • Originally posted by samparnell View Post
                                George Washington has been called Cincinnatus after the Roman Dictator, Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus, who served in that capacity several times, but always relinquished power when his term was up. That happened over two thousand years before George Washington.
                                Oh, I think I see your point. But you must have missed mine. Lucius DIDN'T DO THAT AFTER A WAR. (Yeah, me thinks you need to reread the posts...)

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