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  • Originally posted by Western Bronco View Post
    Oh, I think I see your point. But you must have missed mine. Lucius DIDN'T DO THAT AFTER A WAR. (Yeah, me thinks you need to reread the posts...)
    Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus laid down his dictatorship after two wars: in 458 B.C. after fighting the Aequi and the Sabines; and, in 439 B.C. to put down the conspiracy of Spurius Maelius.

    George Washington was the first president of The Society of Cincinnati, an organization of former officers of the Continental Army.
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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    • Originally posted by Western Bronco View Post
      And I never said it did.

      I was commenting that we needed to go even further back, to start at square one, the very concept of a "democracy," with We the People actually voting.

      And then move forward to squares 2, 3, ...

      That's why I did follow with a reference to the Roman concept of a "republic," as did Madison in his Federalist Paper (#10?), when he was concerned about mob rule (absolute democracy). So, the smart ones made sure a pure mob-rule democracy was tempered with a republican structure. And so we have what you yourself cited as a "more limited form of voting..." A republic.

      My point re the Greek was that it was, as far as any account I've ever read, the first [large society] democracy, where you got to vote for your leaders, and didn't have to wage war in order to change leaders. (A message sadly lost in the late 1850s-1860s.)


      So, I was referencing the Greek influence as the initial spark of democracy. (Aside from a small tribe voting on which direction to look for food.)

      And I never claimed anything from the "Athenian Constitution found its way into [COTUS]".



      But, again, my main point is that the U.S. government was set up contrary to virtually every other form of government prior. Where every "victor" set himself up as the sole arbiter of policy. Where every general, dictator, emperor, tyrant, etc., planted himself at the top of the government, and it was basically all for himself, and the few close allies he trusted. A pure top-down system. Screw everybody else, unless they faithfully served the victor.


      Compare that with what the victorious leader of the American Revolution did. General George Washington did NOT take control, did not take over the government, and did not immediately set up a world of, by, and for himself, the victor. Quite the opposite. He actually laid down his sword, and turned the power over to OTHERS. (Can anyone find any prior example of that throughout history? Don't think so.)

      That others eventually elected him our first "leader," is after the fact, and, quite possibly, due to his noble gesture. After all, compared to other victors throughout history, this made Washington appear to be someone the rest of us could trust: They saw that he had his chance to do what the others did, and assume power and take control over all others. He did not.


      So, thanks in part to George, we didn't get yet another top-down form of despotism, where a very few could prosper, and screw the rest of us. Instead we [eventually, and not without some difficulty,] created a system for We the People. Quite a different concept of government than all those prior.
      See post #178.
      "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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      • :lombardi:2019 Adopt-A-Bronco: Dr. Dre'Mont Jones
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        • Originally posted by samparnell View Post
          Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus laid down his dictatorship after two wars: in 458 B.C. after fighting the Aequi and the Sabines; and, in 439 B.C. to put down the conspiracy of Spurius Maelius.

          George Washington was the first president of The Society of Cincinnati, an organization of former officers of the Continental Army.

          Ah, sounds like we're missing some fine points here.

          Lucius did that with (and within) a pre-existing empire/government. At a time where he was already the dictator.

          Heck, there was no need for him to create a new government or "take control." He already had it. He was already the leader. Why would he need to change anything?

          Nor was Lucius' relinquishment immediate, was it? He stayed in office (at end of those wars), and then relinquished later on, after his term(s) was up.

          Neither of those wars ended up in the creation of a new empire. It was already there. (Expanded empire perhaps, but not new.)


          Washington, wasn't the [full] "leader" of the country. Yet. Only the leader of the Continental Army and the militia. And yet, with all that power at hand, he laid down his sword promptly. (Yeah, yeah, I know Washington was on thin ice a lot of the time. We can leave that tangent alone.)

          But, if GW had followed the lead of the others, he would have taken command over all. (To the victor...)

          He didn't.

          So me thinks there's a big difference in leading an existing country, as the current dictator, and then remaining the dictator, than winning a war and not claiming [absolute] control.



          Not sure what your last point is supposed to be.

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          • Originally posted by samparnell View Post
            See post #178.
            I did. And it's kind of silly to expect people to believe that Ancient Greece became a powerhouse by putting names (like Silliestofall) into a clay pot and then drawing lots.

            Perhaps not the greatest in world history, but they still had better leaders than that.


            But I am always open for correction. Please, do direct me to evidence that "drawing by lot" is the way - AND THE ONLY WAY - Greece became a powerhouse.

            (Meaning that SOME of the small Greek states may have tried something that ineffective (silly?) on occasion, but to think that that was the Grecian model for achieving greatness...)

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            • The Roman Republic was a representative democracy that held annual elections for two consuls, various numbers of praetors divisible by two and various numbers of quaestors divisible by two. Other elected offices included: tribune, censor and aedile. The Romans also had several colleges of priests who were also elected.

              All of these officials had specific duties and responsibilities to carry out.

              In times of emergency, one or both consuls could name a dictator. There were a number of these during the history of the Roman Republic. There was a notorious one named Coriolanus about whom Shakespeare wrote a play. Cincinnatus is one of the greatest and George Washington has often been compared to him.

              Dictators were generals who led the Roman Army in a time of great emergency. One of the most famous is Quintus Fabius Maximus who led the Roman Army against Hannibal Barca during the Second Punic War.

              The maximum period of time a dictator served was six months. That precedent was broken by Lucius Cornelius Sulla at the beginning of the First Century B.C. who was dictator for about a year or so.

              Gaius Julius Caesar was dictator temporarily until being named dictator for life which led to his assassination 15 March 44 B.C. which touched off a civil war that led to the end of the Republic.

              George Washington received his command of the Continental Army from the Continental Congress just as Cincinnatus and all other Roman Dictators received their command from Senatus Populusque Romanus, the Senate and Roman People (SPQR).

              Just like all Roman Dictators (who were military commanders) up until Julius Caesar, George Washington laid down his sword and gave up command when the crisis had ended. You asked if anyone had ever done that in known history. It was done not only by Cincinnatus, but by all dictators in the history of the Roman Republic with the exception of Julius Caesar.

              As president of The Society of Cincinnati, George Washington himself recognized the connection.
              "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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              • Originally posted by Sophia23 View Post
                I've only ever seen one scorpion in AZ ...

                In all the years I lived in NM, I never saw rattlesnakes either .... not as lucky in AZ. I don't walk my dogs on the trails out here between April to October because of all the rattlers. Wasn't on a trail just a road a couple months back, and my dog was leaning over to sniff a rattler .... so now just the parks for a couple more months. Lucky he didn't get bit, hate those snakes ....
                When I lived in Texas, I used to play with scorpions in the bathtub.

                I was 3. Almost gave my dad a heart attack.


                I need to go dig up something to help educate you all.

                Fun thread.
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                • Originally posted by Peanut View Post
                  When I lived in Texas, I used to play with scorpions in the bathtub.

                  I was 3. Almost gave my dad a heart attack.


                  I need to go dig up something to help educate you all.



                  Fun thread.
                  Had I seen that, I would have had a heart attack.

                  I had insomnia for almost 6 months in my early twenties, because I saw a small clear scorpion in my apartment a couple weeks after I moved in …. didn't really sleep til my six month lease was up and I moved out.

                  I don't deal well with bugs, or spiders, or lizards…
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                  • Originally posted by BroncosDivision View Post
                    Just came back from a great trip to San Francisco. I have jet lag and it took us less than 4 hours of flying time each way!! If I took one of the above, I would need to sleep for 5 straight days to catch up!!!!

                    GREAT THREAD my friend!:thumb:

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                    • Originally posted by CanDB View Post
                      Just came back from a great trip to San Francisco. I have jet lag and it took us less than 4 hours of flying time each way!! If I took one of the above, I would need to sleep for 5 straight days to catch up!!!!

                      GREAT THREAD my friend!:thumb:
                      Hope you and your wife had a great time! Just a short getaway?
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                      • Originally posted by BroncosDivision View Post
                        Hope you and your wife had a great time! Just a short getaway?
                        Just a 6 day getaway. Fantastic trip! I've been there before but even I had some bucket list things to do/see. For my wife it was all new and all good! There are so many memories: the scenic beauty of San Francisco and its surroundings, Napa Valley, The Wharf, Going to a Giants game, Muir Woods, and on and on. Of course, walking up some of those streets has added some tightness to my thighs!!!

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                        • Originally posted by Sophia23 View Post
                          Had I seen that, I would have had a heart attack.

                          I had insomnia for almost 6 months in my early twenties, because I saw a small clear scorpion in my apartment a couple weeks after I moved in …. didn't really sleep til my six month lease was up and I moved out.

                          I don't deal well with bugs, or spiders, or lizards
                          I wouldn't play with scorpions anymore, of course.

                          Those things don't bother me. I leave them alone unless they're in the house. Then I try to get them outside. Except for ants and mosquitoes. Those gets squished. I really don't like hitting hard-shelled things. Don't like it when they crunch.

                          Originally posted by CanDB View Post
                          Just a 6 day getaway. Fantastic trip! I've been there before but even I had some bucket list things to do/see. For my wife it was all new and all good! There are so many memories: the scenic beauty of San Francisco and its surroundings, Napa Valley, The Wharf, Going to a Giants game, Muir Woods, and on and on. Of course, walking up some of those streets has added some tightness to my thighs!!!
                          I love San Francisco. I grew up a few miles north of there.

                          Did you drive on PCH near Muir Woods? Breath-taking. Or drive on those thigh-tightening streets? We always got the brakes checked before going into the city.

                          You must have been in San Francisco when the Indy cars drove over the Golden Gate. That would have been cool to see.

                          If you ever go again, may I recommend going to Nihonmachi (Japantown). I can't remember if it was the first one, but it's the largest one now.
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                          • Originally posted by Peanut View Post
                            I love San Francisco. I grew up a few miles north of there.

                            Did you drive on PCH near Muir Woods? Breath-taking. Or drive on those thigh-tightening streets? We always got the brakes checked before going into the city.

                            You must have been in San Francisco when the Indy cars drove over the Golden Gate. That would have been cool to see.

                            If you ever go again, may I recommend going to Nihonmachi (Japantown). I can't remember if it was the first one, but it's the largest one now.

                            We did not rent a car, but did a few tours along with taking trolleys, cable cars, a cab and a boat, and of course, our feet. The drive to and from Muir Woods was quite exciting and interesting. And I was aware of racing going on in Sonoma(???) but was not aware of the cars going over The Golden Gate.....too bad, because that would have been cool. We saw Chinatown and other cultural spots, but unfortunately we didn't see Japantown. I should have checked with you and others from the area before we left. Then again, 6 days goes very fast in such a fantastic area!

                            I still marvel at the view from Alcatraz....amazing how this infamous location was the observation point for some of the most amazing scenery on this planet!

                            And as the saying goes, "the coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco", even though the weather was quite good that week (and of course, no rain), the night at the ballpark, with strong winds blowing out to the outfield, made my canuck bones cold!! Luckily we dressed a bit for it, but we were still chilly!! Yes, we had coffee and a hot chocolate at the game....not your usual baseball drink.

                            One of our favourite memories, and even though not too big a deal, was having a lunch break in Yountville. It was a gorgeous day, the lunch was just right, and the feeling was even better.....and I had only had a few samples of wine by that point of the tour!

                            By the way, you sure are lucky to have grown up in that area....the only negative for me would be the earthquake issue. The only other time I was there, we experienced a 5.1 I believe, though fortunately it was uneventful. In that regard, the city and area seem amazingly resistant, and they are preparing to build a very tall tower shortly.

                            As for the streets, if I had grown up there, I would have been a better conditioned athlete, as long as I didn't trip on the way down!!!!!

                            ...........

                            Further to......for those of us who grew up during the 60s and 70s, San Francisco has a special place in our hearts. The vibe coming from that city was very strong as it spoke loudly for human rights and compassion. So touring the city and being reminded of the events of that time was a very special opportunity. When the tour guide played the classic, "If You're Going To San Francisco", a song I haven't heard too many times of late, I was hit by a warm wave of positive emotion. Those memories became very fresh again. Thank you San Francisco for that!
                            Last edited by CanDB; 08-30-2015, 08:19 AM.

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