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  • Per the understanding of many here, The CDC states that wearing a mask is beneficial for both the wearer and those around them.

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    • Originally posted by CanDB View Post
      Per the understanding of many here, The CDC states that wearing a mask is beneficial for both the wearer and those around them.
      It's confirmed. The mask works both ways. Just saw the update with video 15 minutes ago on CNN.

      To CoryWinget81: Please re-read my post #2363 in this thread. I was correct. Apology not necessary.
      Utah Bronco Freak

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      • Originally posted by CanDB View Post
        Meanwhile, my lovely province has just announced we are going into code red, in hopes to calm things before the holiday season....and more so. We were doing as good as most, with very few cases/deaths until the end of summer. That's why I suggest to all to take this very seriously for the next few months, when we may get our first real break with a vaccine.
        It's a very good idea, it would be just great to calm things until the New Year. On the New Year, people will go to parties and stuff, it's just a great environment for a bigger outbreak.

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        • Originally posted by CanDB View Post

          The covid situation is still relatively new. If we had a real handle on it, and people played by the rules that work, we would not be risking lives.....and in many cases, risking lives of others through our lack of respect and because of poor judgement.

          Are you saying that driving a car is a risk for a person not even in the car?? That's the real issue. People infecting those who are older/vulnerable. I highly doubt anyone here has a big problem with people getting the virus who were irresponsible. To be sure, we do not want them to get really sick or worse. But this comes down to common sense and respect. If a person wants to take that risk, not wearing a mask, or not social distancing, or not washing hands, so be it. But that person should not infect others, nor get quicker medical support than those who played by the rules.

          To conclude, the covid situation is worsening in most places. It's highly due to disrespectful people. I am no hero, but I got tested before I had some important appointments, and when I was going to see my old friends, because I felt a wee bit ill, and did not want to to risk my friends or the professionals I was going to meet. Fortunately I have only tested negative, BUT I knew that before I met.

          And as for the argument that so many folks die every year from car accidents, alcoholism, smoking and so on.....which was discussed before, I don't see this situation as the same at all. We are still learning, whereas those other situations took decades to understand, and to manage. At some point there were levels of death associated with them, but that came from many years of trial and error and public opinion. This is barely year one of a nasty covid.
          Are you assuming what I bolded or have you seen a study suggesting this? There is a recent study done by Northwestern and Standford that indicated possibly 80% of the transmissions come from 10% of the places. Would be interesting how your "highly due to disrespectful people" fall into studies and research.

          I get the differences of opinion in the other parts of the post. I hope people understand how complicated it is and it is not just plain and simple covid costs. There are other costs being paid to lock things down. I hope that is considered when people make their opinions.
          Last edited by Hadez; 11-12-2020, 01:03 PM.
          Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

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          • Originally posted by Hadez View Post

            Are you assuming what I bolded or have you seen a study suggesting this? There is a recent study done by Northwestern and Standford that indicated possibly 80% of the transmissions come from 10% of the places. Would be interesting how your "highly due to disrespectful people" fall into studies and research.

            I get the differences of opinion in the other parts of the post. I hope people understand how complicated it is and it is not just plain and simple covid costs. There are other costs being paid to lock things down. I hope that is considered when people make their opinions.
            Yes it would be.

            FTR, you are quoting me from a while back, which is ok. But if we are going to be current, there is no doubt that this pandemic is growing stronger than ever in many places, and I still believe it is because people lowered their guards, or did not respect the magnitude of the situation well enough, to protect the well being of so many others. I still firmly disagree with your logic about taking risks. You use driving as an example....but you failed to mention that many of those who are sick/dying as a result of the pandemic are not the "drivers" but innocent bystanders. Being an innocent bystander should not be a high risk situation. Plus I did discuss how driving and other causes of death have taken decades to come to the rules/laws we now employ, whereas the covid situation is still relatively new, and it is changing. Like one of the medical experts I heard today compared their medical approach to the covid as follows.... when this began (not that long ago) they were driving as they were paving the road, in terms of knowledge/expertise of how to deal with patients. But driving, or smoking, or drinking rules/laws/norms, as some examples, took decades and endless public opinion to come to where we are today. The death rates associated with each are not good, but have become normal, only because of all the research/debate, over a long period of time.

            Regardless, we can discuss this further, but this is a bad time with regard to the pandemic. We are entering a very serious stage. I know how bad it is here, and I know what I see going on in the US and other countries. The US, as you know, is at new levels of cases, and hospitalizations. This is not good.

            So yeah, I'll continue with my logic...lets be wise, and lets be respectful of others. And if the vaccine is only 3-6 months away, why take extra gambles with our lives, and worse, the lives of others.
            Last edited by CanDB; 11-12-2020, 01:38 PM.

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            • Originally posted by Hadez View Post

              Are you assuming what I bolded or have you seen a study suggesting this? There is a recent study done by Northwestern and Standford that indicated possibly 80% of the transmissions come from 10% of the places. Would be interesting how your "highly due to disrespectful people" fall into studies and research.

              I get the differences of opinion in the other parts of the post. I hope people understand how complicated it is and it is not just plain and simple covid costs. There are other costs being paid to lock things down. I hope that is considered when people make their opinions.
              "highly due to disrespectful people" I believe this statement to be fairly accurate and has been for a while. Why? For me it's seeing numerous videos daily on the the many different news outlets that show hundreds and hundreds people in large groups and the vast majority are not wearing masks.

              And it was reported today that the overwhelming numbers of new virus cases reported in the last week are from people who were exposed/infected 2 to 3 weeks ago. The worst is yet to come once Thanksgiving comes and goes with all of the close social interaction of family and friends, we all need to be prepared for a very awful and disturbing Christmas.
              Utah Bronco Freak

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              • Originally posted by CanDB View Post

                Yes it would be.

                FTR, you are quoting me from a while back, which is ok. But if we are going to be current, there is no doubt that this pandemic is growing stronger than ever in many places, and I still believe it is because people lowered their guards, or did not respect the magnitude of the situation well enough, to protect the well being of so many others. I still firmly disagree with your logic about taking risks. You use driving as an example....but you failed to mention that many of those who are sick/dying as a result of the pandemic are not the "drivers" but innocent bystanders. Being an innocent bystander should not be a high risk situation. Plus I did discuss how driving and other causes of death have taken decades to come to the rules/laws we now employ, whereas the covid situation is still relatively new, and it is changing. Like one of the medical experts I heard today compared their medical approach to the covid as follows.... when this began (not that long ago) they were driving as they were paving the road, in terms of knowledge/expertise of how to deal with patients. But driving, or smoking, or drinking rules/laws/norms, as some examples, took decades and endless public opinion to come to where we are today. The death rates associated with each are not good, but have become normal, only because of all the research/debate, over a long period of time.

                Regardless, we can discuss this further, but this is a bad time with regard to the pandemic. We are entering a very serious stage. I know how bad it is here, and I know what I see going on in the US and other countries. The US, as you know, is at new levels of cases, and hospitalizations. This is not good.

                So yeah, I'll continue with my logic...lets be wise, and lets be respectful of others. And if the vaccine is only 3-6 months away, why take extra gambles with our lives, and worse, the lives of others.
                To the original point I quoted...we all believe a lot of things. It is also important we distinguish between belief and fact. Even if we see something that we consider fact because we saw that fact it is important to understand what is the scope of what we see. When talking about 10 million in the USA or 250k in Canada how many were infected because of disrespectful people? It is ok to assume or have a belief but when we start talking about decisions that have permanent implications on people lives...we may want to be more careful about how we form our opinions.

                I do not visit this forum often. Partly because of my time but also because I want to comment here when I can do so with critical thought and as little emotion as possible....and this is understandably a very emotional issue. If you are not ok with responses in potentially 2 weeks later as that is when I have the time and mental balance to post here than I will stop quoting you.

                As for the bolded driving part....I think you fail to remember the people walking on the street who are killed or maimed in vehicle accidents. I think you fail to remember the people who may be driving but are killed or maimed by another driver. What about the family of the father killed while crossing the street legally by a driver? Not only is the father dead but the family lost someone. Not everyone killed, permanently injured or suffering a loss by a car were driving the car that caused the accident.

                Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

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                • Originally posted by Hadez View Post

                  To the original point I quoted...we all believe a lot of things. It is also important we distinguish between belief and fact. Even if we see something that we consider fact because we saw that fact it is important to understand what is the scope of what we see. When talking about 10 million in the USA or 250k in Canada how many were infected because of disrespectful people? It is ok to assume or have a belief but when we start talking about decisions that have permanent implications on people lives...we may want to be more careful about how we form our opinions.

                  I do not visit this forum often. Partly because of my time but also because I want to comment here when I can do so with critical thought and as little emotion as possible....and this is understandably a very emotional issue. If you are not ok with responses in potentially 2 weeks later as that is when I have the time and mental balance to post here than I will stop quoting you.

                  As for the bolded driving part....I think you fail to remember the people walking on the street who are killed or maimed in vehicle accidents. I think you fail to remember the people who may be driving but are killed or maimed by another driver. What about the family of the father killed while crossing the street legally by a driver? Not only is the father dead but the family lost someone. Not everyone killed, permanently injured or suffering a loss by a car were driving the car that caused the accident.
                  You can stop quoting me if you want, or continue to do so. This is not a good time to be getting too analytical about the surge of this pandemic. It's awful, and it is getting worse. And a reasonably significant amount of it has to do with disrespect and irresponsibility....and selfishness. Not all of course, but that is common sense given the extent and depth of this virus. Unfortunately bad luck and other well-intentioned activity is also part of it.

                  You may disagree if you wish.

                  As for belief and fact, when they align, it is fairly straightforward.
                  Last edited by CanDB; 11-13-2020, 11:49 AM.

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                  • For those of you who may think I, and others who think like me, are too concerned about health vs economy, I will provide an example of where I stand. Where I live, the pandemic is at record highs. Folks have been pushing for restrictions. Finally, effective yesterday, the province chose to close down many forms of indoor shopping (other than "essentials"), among other things. I was ticked. With Christmas shopping down to less than 6 weeks, and these new restrictions staying enforced for likely 4 weeks (or even longer), I thought it was poorly executed. I wrote my member of the legislature and said that they waited too long, given they knew how bad things were, a few weeks back, plus they know how critical Christmas shopping is for retailers. With all their issues this year, and with so many of them on the brink, I thought it was totally unfair to not calculate the timing of these new restrictions, in light of what would best serve our health and our economy.

                    I mentioned how The Amazons of the world just keep on winning this year. Hey, most of us online shop, but give our brick and mortar folks a chance. In this case I was fairly tough on the government decision. In my opinion, they should have started sooner (based on the obvious deteriorating daily stats), monitored, and then hopefully re-opened, even if at 25% capacity, at least a month before Christmas. Of course that includes mandatory mask wearing and social distancing.

                    And though it is not as likely, what if there was a major computer "virus" instead, and online companies took a kicking? It can go both ways. And I think we should care about both forms of retailing.

                    Easy for me to make that assessment, but as much as I care for our health and well being, I also fear for businesses, who are on the brink. It's a 2 way process. But yes, I worry about our health first.
                    Last edited by CanDB; 11-13-2020, 06:17 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by CanDB View Post
                      For those of you who may think I, and others who think like me, are too concerned about health vs economy, I will provide an example of where I stand. Where I live, the pandemic is at record highs. Folks have been pushing for restrictions. Finally, effective yesterday, the province chose to close down many forms of indoor shopping (other than "essentials"), among other things. I was ticked. With Christmas shopping down to less than 6 weeks, and these new restrictions staying enforced for likely 4 weeks (or even longer), I thought it was poorly executed. I wrote my member of the legislature and said that they waited too long, given they knew how bad things were, a few weeks back, plus they know how critical Christmas shopping is for retailers. With all their issues this year, and with so many of them on the brink, I thought it was totally unfair to not calculate the timing of these new restrictions, in light of what would best serve our health and our economy.

                      I mentioned how The Amazons of the world just keep on winning this year. Hey, most of us online shop, but give our brick and mortar folks a chance. In this case I was fairly tough on the government decision. In my opinion, they should have started sooner (based on the obvious deteriorating daily stats), monitored, and then hopefully re-opened, even if at 25% capacity, at least a month before Christmas. Of course that includes mandatory mask wearing and social distancing.

                      And though it is not as likely, what if there was a major computer "virus" instead, and online companies took a kicking? It can go both ways. And I think we should care about both forms of retailing.

                      Easy for me to make that assessment, but as much as I care for our health and well being, I also fear for businesses, who are on the brink. It's a 2 way process. But yes, I worry about our health first.
                      Almost everyone I talk to does not care about the economy. In fact most people I know care as much about the economy as they do about the graph of wealthy people feelings aka the stock market.

                      People care about the lock downs and how they are affecting jobs. I work at a company where our branch of the corporation employed thousands of people in March 2020. We have let go over half of our employees. Each department is from 20% to 55% staffed compared to March 2020.

                      People I talk to IRL care about jobs. Millions of people who have lost their jobs. Many people who have lost their small business they have worked for their entire life. Most small businesses can not afford to keep going with a 8 month lock down. They are not Target...they are not Home Depot so they are forced to close for over half a year. Probably longer as cases rise again.

                      What does it mean in the USA when one does not have a job....one does not have health insurance. So millions of people who have lost their health insurance and jobs now face record surges of Covid19.

                      Oh yea people without jobs have been not paying rent for months. Evictions were not allowed but those laws are expiring in a lot of places. Reports are that property management companies have already started the process of evicting people. The plan is the day the law expires to serve people eviction notices.

                      This 8 month lock down is going to have the perfect storm of record infections...millions of people who lost their jobs and health insurance and now people are going to start getting evicted for not paying their rent. There are already lots of people living in vehicles in major cities. It was probably not so bad in the summer but now that fall it here...flu season is here...covid cases are spiking...

                      Almost everyone I know is no longer 40 hours a week. At my work we are at 80% work schedule. That applies to all but a handful of my friends and family on some level. People are struggling to make rent and put food on the table.

                      So yea....people I know are not concerned about the economy....they are concerned about lock downs and the millions of people losing their jobs. They are concerned about their own jobs and ability to pay rent and put food on the table.
                      Last edited by Hadez; 11-15-2020, 06:25 PM.
                      Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Hadez View Post

                        Almost everyone I talk to does not care about the economy. In fact most people I know care as much about the economy as they do about the graph of wealthy people feelings aka the stock market.

                        People care about the lock downs and how they are affecting jobs. I work at a company where our branch of the corporation employed thousands of people in March 2020. We have let go over half of our employees. Each department is from 20% to 55% staffed compared to March 2020.

                        People I talk to IRL care about jobs. Millions of people who have lost their jobs. Many people who have lost their small business they have worked for their entire life. Most small businesses can not afford to keep going with a 8 month lock down. They are not Target...they are not Home Depot so they are forced to close for over half a year. Probably longer as cases rise again.

                        What does it mean in the USA when one does not have a job....one does not have health insurance. So millions of people who have lost their health insurance and jobs now face record surges of Covid19.

                        Oh yea people without jobs have been not paying rent for months. Evictions were not allowed but those laws are expiring in a lot of places. Reports are that property management companies have already started the process of evicting people. The plan is the day the law expires to serve people eviction notices.

                        This 8 month lock down is going to have the perfect storm of record infections...millions of people who lost their jobs and health insurance and now people are going to start getting evicted for not paying their rent. There are already lots of people living in vehicles in major cities. It was probably not so bad in the summer but now that fall it here...flu season is here...covid cases are spiking...

                        Almost everyone I know is no longer 40 hours a week. At my work we are at 80% work schedule. That applies to all but a handful of my friends and family on some level. People are struggling to make rent and put food on the table.

                        So yea....people I know are not concerned about the economy....they are concerned about lock downs and the millions of people losing their jobs. They are concerned about their own jobs and ability to pay rent and put food on the table.
                        I feel for those out of work, or with reduced hours, or without insurance benefits, or stressed because of it all. I really do. My post was simply stating that as much as I care about the health of folks, I also think governments have to be wise in how they manage the economy, and in the case I offer, with careful analysis of what restrictions apply, and when. It's a tough balancing act.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hadez View Post

                          Almost everyone I talk to does not care about the economy. In fact most people I know care as much about the economy as they do about the graph of wealthy people feelings aka the stock market.

                          People care about the lock downs and how they are affecting jobs. I work at a company where our branch of the corporation employed thousands of people in March 2020. We have let go over half of our employees. Each department is from 20% to 55% staffed compared to March 2020.

                          People I talk to IRL care about jobs. Millions of people who have lost their jobs. Many people who have lost their small business they have worked for their entire life. Most small businesses can not afford to keep going with a 8 month lock down. They are not Target...they are not Home Depot so they are forced to close for over half a year. Probably longer as cases rise again.

                          What does it mean in the USA when one does not have a job....one does not have health insurance. So millions of people who have lost their health insurance and jobs now face record surges of Covid19.

                          Oh yea people without jobs have been not paying rent for months. Evictions were not allowed but those laws are expiring in a lot of places. Reports are that property management companies have already started the process of evicting people. The plan is the day the law expires to serve people eviction notices.

                          This 8 month lock down is going to have the perfect storm of record infections...millions of people who lost their jobs and health insurance and now people are going to start getting evicted for not paying their rent. There are already lots of people living in vehicles in major cities. It was probably not so bad in the summer but now that fall it here...flu season is here...covid cases are spiking...

                          Almost everyone I know is no longer 40 hours a week. At my work we are at 80% work schedule. That applies to all but a handful of my friends and family on some level. People are struggling to make rent and put food on the table.

                          So yea....people I know are not concerned about the economy....they are concerned about lock downs and the millions of people losing their jobs. They are concerned about their own jobs and ability to pay rent and put food on the table.
                          Well said...and it funny that people that say the economy isn’t as important as health are those that have essential service jobs, or are retired and get a fixed pension.

                          it’s easy to pick a side when you know your check is coming on time every time ......
                          sigpic

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                          • Originally posted by Hadez View Post

                            Almost everyone I talk to does not care about the economy. In fact most people I know care as much about the economy as they do about the graph of wealthy people feelings aka the stock market.

                            People care about the lock downs and how they are affecting jobs. I work at a company where our branch of the corporation employed thousands of people in March 2020. We have let go over half of our employees. Each department is from 20% to 55% staffed compared to March 2020.

                            People I talk to IRL care about jobs. Millions of people who have lost their jobs. Many people who have lost their small business they have worked for their entire life. Most small businesses can not afford to keep going with a 8 month lock down. They are not Target...they are not Home Depot so they are forced to close for over half a year. Probably longer as cases rise again.

                            What does it mean in the USA when one does not have a job....one does not have health insurance. So millions of people who have lost their health insurance and jobs now face record surges of Covid19.

                            Oh yea people without jobs have been not paying rent for months. Evictions were not allowed but those laws are expiring in a lot of places. Reports are that property management companies have already started the process of evicting people. The plan is the day the law expires to serve people eviction notices.

                            This 8 month lock down is going to have the perfect storm of record infections...millions of people who lost their jobs and health insurance and now people are going to start getting evicted for not paying their rent. There are already lots of people living in vehicles in major cities. It was probably not so bad in the summer but now that fall it here...flu season is here...covid cases are spiking...

                            Almost everyone I know is no longer 40 hours a week. At my work we are at 80% work schedule. That applies to all but a handful of my friends and family on some level. People are struggling to make rent and put food on the table.

                            So yea....people I know are not concerned about the economy....they are concerned about lock downs and the millions of people losing their jobs. They are concerned about their own jobs and ability to pay rent and put food on the table.
                            FTR....I think when we talk at a more macro level, I for one consider economy to actually equate to peoples' jobs and lives. I certainly don't think only of it as X% growth, or whatever GDP. When the economy is weak, I think folks out of work and struggling. If the economy is good, I see more folks getting by, and more opportunity. There's a strong micro side to all of this, and for people like me, it's not just stats. It's the well being of those who are doing what they can. It is personal to me.

                            Anyway, to all, stay safe.
                            Last edited by CanDB; 11-16-2020, 09:17 PM.

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                            • Originally posted by EddieMac View Post

                              Well said...and it funny that people that say the economy isn’t as important as health are those that have essential service jobs, or are retired and get a fixed pension.

                              it’s easy to pick a side when you know your check is coming on time every time ......
                              Just my thoughts:
                              1) Your poll seems to have missed out some folks I know.
                              2) Many essential service folks are comforting those in need and saving lives, and risking their own, so I'm good with any side they choose.
                              3) Many seniors are not only fearful for their health, but also for the economy. Many barely make ends meet, and if they live off any investments, they could be in greater jeopardy if the economy does not rebound. Fixed pensions are good, but not so good when they are relatively small, and are not adjusted to actual inflation. Many are facing a double whammy effect, health and economy.
                              4) People who are not seniors or essential workers, but are vulnerable to this virus, would justifiably be concerned about their health.
                              5) People who have lost someone or fear losing someone might be more health sensitive, even if they do not fit in the two categories you mention.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by EddieMac View Post

                                Well said...and it funny that people that say the economy isn’t as important as health are those that have essential service jobs, or are retired and get a fixed pension.

                                it’s easy to pick a side when you know your check is coming on time every time ......
                                there are definitely people who fall into this category.

                                There are also people who still get paid but no longer need to commute...a lock down actually gives them more money as they no longer need to pay the gas, insurance and car upkeep to commute...not to mention saved time.
                                Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

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