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  • Originally posted by Hadez View Post

    There is a lot of failing to learn going on this year imo. As bad as Covid has been in 2020 imo it is a slap to the face by "Darwin" letting the human race know just how unprepared it is for a major event. There have been pandemics in human history that have wiped out 50% of the human population in a region. There have been smaller scale pandemics that wiped out 90% of certain people. 2020 has been a wake up call...as far as we think we have come....a lot of things need to be better.

    The final yearly death toll in the USA will be telling.

    2015 - 2,712,630
    2016 - 2,744,248
    2017 - 2,813,503
    2018 - 2,839,205
    2019 - 2,855,000 (not final count apparently)
    2020 - 3 mil + (estimate)
    I agree to some extent, but it does not excuse the ignorance of so many leaders/individuals who chose to look the other way when the world knew what was happening. And the fact that experts have been warning us for decades. They could have been more "prepared". There are documents that provide some direction re: preparedness. It may seem insignificant to some, but life needs to be a priority, even if it's not yours, given we are all in this one together. There is not one continent that is covid free. And folks should try to imagine how awful it is to die this way, and that another year, month or even just a day with someone we love is so precious.

    And I am sure many will not get the vaccine when, in my opinion, most should (there are always some good exceptions, quite possibly to include pregnancy). Why? Because immunity of one affects immunity for all. And for me, it's about time some folks step up their game, and take this thing seriously. Try telling the family and friends of our friend's relation, who as a healthy male, died at 40 because of covid. I am not cherry picking either, because even though a lower %, this is not only about old, sick people. And as I have mentioned many times, we do not know the long term effects. Could it be that many of us will suffer with it for the rest of our lives? Maybe.

    Like my buddy Peerless, I am seriously tired of anyone not buying into the severity and yes, responsibility as a citizen of this planet, towards this pandemic. The pandemic is raging in many locations and will likely rage even more intensely after the holiday season. But I am quite sure that many will take unnecessary risks just the same. In that regards, the vaccines are not here soon enough, but perhaps worse, will not be received by far too many.

    Hey, that's my take. Had this been viewed more seriously, we might be describing a totally different outcome. Though still terrible, but not nearly as tragic....including health and economy. No way should the planet be closing in on 2 million deaths within one year, with so much economic loss.

    Comment


    • Understand the frustration about individuals but from everything I have been gathering as an essential worker and someone who has difficult conversations with many people about hard issues the "individual refusal to conform" is not even top 3 in my pareto chart of things needing to be done better in a pandemic.

      Do not think the system of most countries were prepared for a pandemic even though there were reports all governments had as early as Dec 2019. I think if you look at how little was done from March to prepare for the known wave that was coming in the fall/winter then it starts to be clear how the whole system is not really built and designed to handle a pandemic. The USA has a health care system based on profit. It does great when people are following insurance / doctor procedures that have been honed to be max profitable after years of refinement.

      We could not do that much to prepare for the fall/winter wave we knew was coming...what could we really expect from the first wave no one really knew was coming.

      I agree there is a lot of room to do better and a lot of lessons to be learned. I do continual improvement for a living....one of the big things an entity needs to be real with...does it have the skillsets to implement the things the entity wants to happen? Some of the skillsets are people based, some are process based and some are resource based. You would be surprised how many people try to implement the impossible because they do not even understand the logistics of what it takes to get where they want to be.

      Have seen a large company take years to shift skillsets to do some very basic things that were needed for survival.
      Last edited by Hadez; 12-25-2020, 07:04 PM.
      Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Hadez View Post
        Understand the frustration about individuals but from everything I have been gathering as an essential worker and someone who has difficult conversations with many people about hard issues the "individual refusal to conform" is not even top 3 in my pareto chart of things needing to be done better in a pandemic.
        Where do you think it falls in your opinion? Because from an outsiders view it appears the compliance factor around proposed harsh lockdowns imposed by countries like Australia and New Zealand early on has afforded them great success in controlling death rates, the spread of infection, return to normalcy, etc. Sovereign borders and a stable political environment probably helps, but I think saying it isn't a contributing factor would be ignorant, are you saying that ?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post

          Where do you think it falls in your opinion? Because from an outsiders view it appears the compliance factor around proposed harsh lockdowns imposed by countries like Australia and New Zealand early on has afforded them great success in controlling death rates, the spread of infection, return to normalcy, etc. Sovereign borders and a stable political environment probably helps, but I think saying it isn't a contributing factor would be ignorant, are you saying that ?
          That's what I read as well.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post

            Where do you think it falls in your opinion? Because from an outsiders view it appears the compliance factor around proposed harsh lockdowns imposed by countries like Australia and New Zealand early on has afforded them great success in controlling death rates, the spread of infection, return to normalcy, etc. Sovereign borders and a stable political environment probably helps, but I think saying it isn't a contributing factor would be ignorant, are you saying that ?
            I said


            the "individual refusal to conform" is not even top 3 in my pareto chart of things needing to be done better in a pandemic.

            So I guess you asking me if my pareto chart stops at 3 things....to which I respond it goes beyond 3. Individual refusal to conform is on the list.

            So is people stressing out over other peoples actions. Stress is bad for the immune system.
            Last edited by Hadez; 01-04-2021, 02:04 PM.
            Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

            Comment


            • Folks....lets hope the holiday season does no further damage to the trending we have witnessed. In The US, daily lost lives has nearly reached 4,000, and that has to be seriously assessed given that the first wave was hardly more than a quarter of that level. And my gut tells me that holiday travel and get togethers will cause one last jump, sometime later this month. I hope folks were wise.

              But there is so much good awaiting, with more than one vaccine out there for distribution. In theory, once the end of year spread declines, if we do our part, this thing will decline each month going forward.

              In Canada, we are experiencing a number of politicians being reprimanded for travelling during the holiday break. Mainly telling no one until caught. It has led to resignations/demotions, though some will get away with it. Not a good idea to tell citizens how to live and then look the other way when it's your turn.

              Anyway....do your best, because the storm is passing, but not fast enough. But as I posted earlier, what a shame to notice the increased number of obituaries of late. One great sign will be when that section of the paper shrinks to much lower levels.
              Last edited by CanDB; 01-04-2021, 02:14 PM.

              Comment


              • Over 30 people where I work have been at work with Covid since Nov 17. Not all in the building I work in...but most. Before Dec 17 we were not even notified there was exposure. We do try to do some tracing but it is no where near as good as it needs to be.

                I was sent home 6 days after my contact with someone infected. Was paid to quarantine. Got free testing

                Work offers free testing starting the last week in Dec for everyone.
                Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Hadez View Post

                  I said


                  the "individual refusal to conform" is not even top 3 in my pareto chart of things needing to be done better in a pandemic.

                  So I guess you asking me if my pareto chart stops at 3 things....to which I respond it goes beyond 3. Individual refusal to conform is on the list.

                  So is people stressing out over other peoples actions. Stress is bad for the immune system.
                  I was asking man, and in context it was asked in reference to it being a cause for spread, is that what the chart communicates ? I really don't think any health professionals in the context I am talking are saying that stressing out is bad for the spread of this virus. Stress is obviously never good for ones health, but I don't imagine that being a driving force in America for why the health care professionals and community cannot put a stop to it, everyone everywhere is stressed about it. Who produces the charts for things needing to be done better ? Is that communicated by line managers where you work, or is it a government communication ? Like what is this chart you are referencing as a document to reject the idea that refusal to conform is not a major factor ? Is it a poll of patients ? Is it an evaluation by hospitals ? What are you referencing here ? What is your work if you don't mind me asking ?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post

                    Where do you think it falls in your opinion? Because from an outsiders view it appears the compliance factor around proposed harsh lockdowns imposed by countries like Australia and New Zealand early on has afforded them great success in controlling death rates, the spread of infection, return to normalcy, etc. Sovereign borders and a stable political environment probably helps, but I think saying it isn't a contributing factor would be ignorant, are you saying that ?
                    Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post

                    I was asking man, and in context it was asked in reference to it being a cause for spread, is that what the chart communicates ? I really don't think any health professionals in the context I am talking are saying that stressing out is bad for the spread of this virus. Stress is obviously never good for ones health, but I don't imagine that being a driving force in America for why the health care professionals and community cannot put a stop to it, everyone everywhere is stressed about it. Who produces the charts for things needing to be done better ? Is that communicated by line managers where you work, or is it a government communication ? Like what is this chart you are referencing as a document to reject the idea that refusal to conform is not a major factor ? Is it a poll of patients ? Is it an evaluation by hospitals ? What are you referencing here ? What is your work if you don't mind me asking ?

                    Well I am going to try and ignore you tossing around the word "ignorant" in your previous post. I do not think that is a word someone wants to use when they want to have an open minded conversation.

                    Why is Individual Refusal to Conform not in my top 3....well there are a lot of reasons but I would also like to point out wearing a mask is not something the CDC considers when determining the definition of close contact with someone infected and needing to quarantine. Distance and amount of time are considered but it does not matter if both people are wearing a mask or not.

                    Masks worn by untrained may slow the spread but they can not stop it. Even the CDC accounts for this in their definition of close contact

                    From the CDC website about close contact

                    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...x.html#contact

                    Because the general public has not received training on proper selection and use of respiratory PPE, such as an N95, the determination of close contact should generally be made irrespective of whether the contact was wearing respiratory PPE.


                    I do think it is bad people do not conform to the suggested ways we can protect each other. I just think other things are bigger factors in the spread of Covid19.
                    Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Hadez View Post




                      Well I am going to try and ignore you tossing around the word "ignorant" in your previous post. I do not think that is a word someone wants to use when they want to have an open minded conversation.

                      Why is Individual Refusal to Conform not in my top 3....well there are a lot of reasons but I would also like to point out wearing a mask is not something the CDC considers when determining the definition of close contact with someone infected and needing to quarantine. Distance and amount of time are considered but it does not matter if both people are wearing a mask or not.

                      Masks worn by untrained may slow the spread but they can not stop it. Even the CDC accounts for this in their definition of close contact

                      From the CDC website about close contact

                      https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...x.html#contact

                      Because the general public has not received training on proper selection and use of respiratory PPE, such as an N95, the determination of close contact should generally be made irrespective of whether the contact was wearing respiratory PPE.


                      I do think it is bad people do not conform to the suggested ways we can protect each other. I just think other things are bigger factors in the spread of Covid19.
                      You can say things many ways, but if we'd all worn masks, distanced and washed from day one, I can not imagine how many people would have been saved from death, and in many cases, in a horrifying one. And we would have progressed in all other ways, economically, educationally, mentally, socially and otherwise. Simple.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by CanDB View Post

                        You can say things many ways, but if we'd all worn masks, distanced and washed from day one, I can not imagine how many people would have been saved from death, and in many cases, in a horrifying one. And we would have progressed in all other ways, economically, educationally, mentally, socially and otherwise. Simple.
                        edit - look I get some people want to get super into the mask issue and not think about anything else. I get it ....it is the easy information the media is talking about. It is all some people know. It takes a lot of effort to get into the other details of what is going on and probably only reason I have spent over 100 hours researching this is because of my determination to be as safe as possible as I am a essential working going home and exposing others. The fact other information is not being reported because it takes more time to look into or maybe casts shade on something that is not popular to cast shade on it another opportunity for improvement imo.

                        That can go many ways.

                        How many lives were lost because of non-existent / poor contact tracing?

                        How many lives were lost because people were told not to wear masks in the beginning?

                        How many lives were lost because most businesses were told to close but many non-essential businesses were allowed to stay open for many reasons?

                        How many lives were lost because nurses working in hospitals / covid testing centers were told not to get covid tested when they starting having mild symptoms? (I personally know two nurses in different counties told this)

                        Honestly those are the low hanging fruit of what ifs....there are more.
                        Last edited by Hadez; 01-10-2021, 01:54 PM.
                        Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hadez View Post

                          edit - look I get some people want to get super into the mask issue and not think about anything else. I get it ....it is the easy information the media is talking about. It is all some people know. It takes a lot of effort to get into the other details of what is going on and probably only reason I have spent over 100 hours researching this is because of my determination to be as safe as possible as I am a essential working going home and exposing others. The fact other information is not being reported because it takes more time to look into or maybe casts shade on something that is not popular to cast shade on it another opportunity for improvement imo.

                          That can go many ways.

                          How many lives were lost because of non-existent / poor contact tracing?

                          How many lives were lost because people were told not to wear masks in the beginning?

                          How many lives were lost because most businesses were told to close but many non-essential businesses were allowed to stay open for many reasons?

                          How many lives were lost because nurses working in hospitals / covid testing centers were told not to get covid tested when they starting having mild symptoms? (I personally know two nurses in different counties told this)

                          Honestly those are the low hanging fruit of what ifs....there are more.
                          I'll be brief. This pandemic has been a disaster, and still is. I really don't think there's much more to digest or dissect about it. Those who chose to act like it wasn't a big deal, or keep looking for reasons to condone their behaviour and lack of respect for other human life, can carry on. Not saying you, but so many still. I tell them to accept the reality. A brand new pandemic, NEW, not the 19th version of it, like some still believe. And yet, with all the warnings and the best info that the experts could give, many people believed whatever they wanted, and criticized the best of the best, because they were not "perfect" in assessing a brand new pandemic. But somehow those with little expertise (as in none most of the time) thought their version was better. Hey, as long as I'm not sick, who cares attitude. But when they got sick, they talked a different talk.

                          I really don't want to get into this debate, but I did need to drop in. Lets just say this was a catastrophe, and far too many people died, and many of us may be impacted long term. But lets give the medical/science experts their due. They got most of it right. They predicted the need to isolate and distance. They predicted a 2nd or even third wave, which was in fact, worse. They came up with vaccines. They are the winners as are all the front line folks who risk their lives for so many.

                          All the other stuff is whatever. When you cut to the chase, the path was very well laid out for us....though some leadership factions looked the other way.

                          And the conspiracy theorists will continue to manufacture garbage about this and so many other things, and will go on and on....but do little to help. Lets let the real heroes and experts show the way.

                          Be cool.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Hadez View Post




                            Well I am going to try and ignore you tossing around the word "ignorant" in your previous post. I do not think that is a word someone wants to use when they want to have an open minded conversation.

                            Why is Individual Refusal to Conform not in my top 3....well there are a lot of reasons but I would also like to point out wearing a mask is not something the CDC considers when determining the definition of close contact with someone infected and needing to quarantine. Distance and amount of time are considered but it does not matter if both people are wearing a mask or not.

                            Masks worn by untrained may slow the spread but they can not stop it. Even the CDC accounts for this in their definition of close contact

                            From the CDC website about close contact

                            https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...x.html#contact

                            Because the general public has not received training on proper selection and use of respiratory PPE, such as an N95, the determination of close contact should generally be made irrespective of whether the contact was wearing respiratory PPE.


                            I do think it is bad people do not conform to the suggested ways we can protect each other. I just think other things are bigger factors in the spread of Covid19.
                            You didn't really clarify. I won't probe you on what your job is, but what are you referencing with your charts here as if it is evidence or some type of material that is worthy of being referenced in the context of this discussion? Is this an opinion poll of people and their concerns ? Is it a document produced by the government as health advice or reasoning for why as a country America has been horrible compared to multiple other western countries that have implemented the health advice and followed directives? What is the chart and what is the context of the data you were talking about, that was what I was more hoping to find out about.

                            Comment


                            • Good news today, my professional healthcare daughter got her first dose of the vaccine.

                              Yessssss!!!!

                              Comment


                              • It wasn't very difficult to "forecast" the over whelming death count we have now 2 to 3 weeks after Christmas and New Year "gatherings" of people.

                                It's mind blowing that there are so many people who refuse to ignore elementary common sense due to self centered and selfish behavior.

                                Americans and their flawed thinking....horribly disappointing.
                                Utah Bronco Freak

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