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  • Peerless
    replied
    Originally posted by Peerless View Post


    So... This is obviously bad. But it also was preventable.
    I'm still interested in hearing thoughts on this case, or cases similar to this.

    Folks not interested or refusing to take the vaccine.... this could be you. Is this, okay?

    Leave a comment:


  • Hadez
    replied
    Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
    The personal choice of individuals should be honoured, a government should never be able to dictate how anyone acts, lives, or operates within society. That doesn't mean I am against the vaccine, but I feel governments everywhere are just overstepping their boundaries in the guise of protection of the citizens, things are going too far. They are probably genuine in their efforts, but the responses are bordering on authoritarianism now, and I would imagine the players union will take a large issue if players are forced to take vaccines at any point against their will. Although, the NFL is a private enterprise, and they would be well within their rights to enforce such efforts. Could become messy if star players on high cap numbers refuse the vaccine though, teams will have no legal standing on voiding contracts on the basis of the player's refusal to comply.
    I think when there is multiple paths to force people down the single path of the vaccine or say....fire them...not let them earn a living...THAT is when freedom is being taken away.

    It is also why people do not trust the establishment health system.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hadez
    replied
    Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post

    While in a large number of cases you are probably right in your 3 descriptors here, you are also forgetting people who just don't personally see a need for them to go and get the vaccine right now, and are kind of unfazed. I was one, I will get the vaccine eventually, but I have not been in any rush to go and get it. Maybe I might be an idiot who at one point regrets my decision, but calling anyone who doesn't conform in this scenario "stubborn, ill-informed, or hardheaded", essentially anyone not agreeing with you, is quite ignorant in my opinion. But I respect your angle from your point of view based on your profession, but not everyone will see it like you. Maybe at some point, you need to learn to live with that and move on from the hostility and the feeling of needing to talk down to folks. I think you have to respect the right of people also to feel they should be able to choose what to do with their bodies, and not be guilted into extended lockdowns if they don't conform. I feel if we applied the right to choose principles to another touchy subject we might see some wild contradictions from a lot of people all over the place.
    In my experience people do not take the vaccine because they do not trust establishment health system.

    The part I bolded I use to hear in 2014-2015 but I did not get what people meant. I think with the help of some people who have different points of view I understand it now.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hadez
    replied
    Originally posted by CanDB View Post

    I disagree. Covid is still a new disease, and when people choose to take silly risks, and not get vaccinated, they are taxing the medical system, depriving of others of receiving the care they need, while keeping things at a slower pace of recovery. If this was an ongoing, multi decade problem, I might see it different. But until this is under control, who else but governments to control things? We keep stepping backwards as we try to step forwards, which in this case is CLEARLY because people who are unvaccinated are the ones at risk, and are the ones slowing down the rest of us, who have patiently waited and waited and waited (I can say that many more times) but now worry that these people will prevent us all from moving forward. How selfish are they, unless of course, they are not able to be vaccinated.

    But the truth is, communities of people are not supporting the unvaccinated types. There are many accounts of people discontinuing business with unvaccinated people/communities. And it is a smart policy that is now allowing countries to cross borders...IF VACCINATED. Very smart. So the unvaccinated are not only potentially harming themselves, with this new fast spreading variant, and possibly causing long term damage to themselves, but are also going to pay a price when trying to deal with others, whether it be commercially or socially.

    And this will affect businesses further, and schools further, and other things we normally expect in our everyday lives.

    If not government, then who? And with so much garbage floating around, including conspiracy ridiculousness!

    This is 101 stuff JL. Get vaccinated and this covid thing pretty much goes away. Don't get vaccinated and possibly harm yourself, while taxing all those who need not be taxed any longer.
    Why are people who choose not to get vaccinated the only source of anger for taxing the health care system?

    Since April 2020 there has been a treatment shown in labs to work against Covid19. Since Aug 2020 parts of countries started using this treatment. Non-profit doctors suggested the treatment in Oct 2020. One of those front line doctors went to the Senate on Dec 8 to present data from around the world. Countries around the world are using this treatment to stop taxing their medical system because they have low access to vaccines.

    The winter of 2020-2021 was horrible on taxing our health care system but I do not see anyone wanting to hold establishment health leadership responsible for not using every treatment possible to help our taxed out medical system.

    Now you expect average people to do what the "smart doctors" that lead our health care system could not do in the Winter in 2020-2021? Take a leap of faith on something people have data on to help keep people out of the hospital?

    Leave a comment:


  • Peerless
    replied
    Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post

    I wouldn't say you are full of hate, based on your statement, yes, ignorant to others' perspectives. I just think your lack of understanding that some people who are not so concerned with what is going on in relation to their own personal health story is evident. But again, I understand where you are coming from with things you have probably seen that I have most definitely not. But I am in my 20's, I run daily, I am extremely healthy, and where I live is not greatly affected, but am still suffering from mass lockdowns, my biggest gripe. So, yes, I will get the vaccine as I believe it is the smart thing to do, but I am right now not concerned for myself, and if anything with the limited supply in Australia and our struggling vaccine rollout, taking this approach is allowing more vulnerable people to get access before me. Before calling that ignorant, again, understanding the circumstances of others could be helpful.

    I do agree also with your latter statement. I think if lockdowns were to be lifted, restrictions scaled back, and society opened up, if someone who refused to get the vaccine was to wind up in the hospital, in ICU, or worse yet, dead, that is their bed, lie in it, 100%. I believe that is a personal choice, and if someone is silly enough to take that risk when they are considered a vulnerable person, then that is 100% on them. That does sound harsh, but it is fair, so you won't get any disagreement from me on that point.

    I love your statement below though:

    "YOU need to learn to live with the fact that people are trying to help you and prevent an issue from arising, and it shouldn't be this constant tug of war".

    I agree, and health care workers have done an amazing job. This period over the last 18 months demonstrates the sacrifice of the workforce and the respect they deserve. I really do understand where you are coming from, but I do believe you are off-base in classifying people as only one of those 3 things if they haven't conformed, that is not a good way to educate, especially when trying to reach the disengaged, defiant, and unreachable. It's also not a reality to expect everyone to get on board, and you will always have that 15% of people who will be different just to be different. So if maintaining lockdowns and harsh restrictions is the plan until they are all reached, your breath on these arguments will be wasted, and life is really going to suck for a lot longer.
    Nice reply, and well thought out. I don't have too much more to add.

    I don't know the situation in Australia with the vaccine roll out, so for that I am not very well informed. The lockdowns are annoying, and they do suck - and that's another issue (with pros and cons).

    The three words I used to classify people is a matter of opinion, and pretty reasonable in the scenario above. But we'll agree to disagree on that.

    Leave a comment:


  • johnlimburg
    replied
    Originally posted by Peerless View Post

    You said you will get the vaccine eventually. You are: informed. You are educated. You are enlightened. So do it?

    Let's just pretend - that you don't get it (when you easily could have) and you become COVID + with symptoms.

    Now you're sitting in an ICU room with labored breathing, low oxygen levels - being poked and prodded for blood gases which reveal worsening blood oxygenation markers, and now we have to stick a tube down your throat to save you life. Now you're ON a breathing machine, and you've become agitated and restless because a machine is breathing for you - so the doctor ordered me to sedate and paralyze you.

    So yes, at this stage - you were stubborn. You were hard headed. But I guess in a way, I was wrong because you have been well informed.

    As I said before - I may sound harsh, mean, or full of hate. But I'm not. I'm trying to promote good health and positive outcomes.

    I think instead of promoting some self righteous stance on "it's my choice, I can do what I want" YOU need to learn to live with the fact that people are trying to help you and prevent an issue from arising, and it shouldn't be this constant tug of war. And you want to say I'm ignorant? What are you then? Is the person in the situation above not ignorant??

    But when I bring up a point like: if you refuse to get the vaccine when you could have, and you get into a world of hurt with COVID with bad symptoms - you should live with your own consequences right? I mean - it was YOUR choice... so you can live with YOUR results of those choices, right? You made your bed... right?

    But you and I know it never works out that way.
    I wouldn't say you are full of hate, based on your statement, yes, ignorant to others' perspectives. I just think your lack of understanding that some people who are not so concerned with what is going on in relation to their own personal health story is evident. But again, I understand where you are coming from with things you have probably seen that I have most definitely not. But I am in my 20's, I run daily, I am extremely healthy, and where I live is not greatly affected, but am still suffering from mass lockdowns, my biggest gripe. So, yes, I will get the vaccine as I believe it is the smart thing to do, but I am right now not concerned for myself, and if anything with the limited supply in Australia and our struggling vaccine rollout, taking this approach is allowing more vulnerable people to get access before me. Before calling that ignorant, again, understanding the circumstances of others could be helpful.

    I do agree also with your latter statement. I think if lockdowns were to be lifted, restrictions scaled back, and society opened up, if someone who refused to get the vaccine was to wind up in the hospital, in ICU, or worse yet, dead, that is their bed, lie in it, 100%. I believe that is a personal choice, and if someone is silly enough to take that risk when they are considered a vulnerable person, then that is 100% on them. That does sound harsh, but it is fair, so you won't get any disagreement from me on that point.

    I love your statement below though:

    "YOU need to learn to live with the fact that people are trying to help you and prevent an issue from arising, and it shouldn't be this constant tug of war".

    I agree, and health care workers have done an amazing job. This period over the last 18 months demonstrates the sacrifice of the workforce and the respect they deserve. I really do understand where you are coming from, but I do believe you are off-base in classifying people as only one of those 3 things if they haven't conformed, that is not a good way to educate, especially when trying to reach the disengaged, defiant, and unreachable. It's also not a reality to expect everyone to get on board, and you will always have that 15% of people who will be different just to be different. So if maintaining lockdowns and harsh restrictions is the plan until they are all reached, your breath on these arguments will be wasted, and life is really going to suck for a lot longer.

    Leave a comment:


  • Peerless
    replied


    So... This is obviously bad. But it also was preventable.
    Last edited by Peerless; 07-23-2021, 06:06 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Peerless
    replied
    Originally posted by JvDub95 View Post

    My issue is EVEN THE VACCINATED will test positive. Is it going to be the ones who didn't get the jab "be the issue" even though they still need to adhere to last years rules? Unvaxed still need to go through all the protocol standards but vaxed can "live free".....who are the ones who will be spreading it??
    Dude.... No vaccine is 100 percent effective, so what scientists call “breakthrough infections” were always expected. In most cases, the symptoms are mild after getting vaccinated.

    Leave a comment:


  • Peerless
    replied
    Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post

    While in a large number of cases you are probably right in your 3 descriptors here, you are also forgetting people who just don't personally see a need for them to go and get the vaccine right now, and are kind of unfazed. I was one, I will get the vaccine eventually, but I have not been in any rush to go and get it. Maybe I might be an idiot who at one point regrets my decision, but calling anyone who doesn't conform in this scenario "stubborn, ill-informed, or hardheaded", essentially anyone not agreeing with you, is quite ignorant in my opinion. But I respect your angle from your point of view based on your profession, but not everyone will see it like you. Maybe at some point, you need to learn to live with that and move on from the hostility and the feeling of needing to talk down to folks. I think you have to respect the right of people also to feel they should be able to choose what to do with their bodies, and not be guilted into extended lockdowns if they don't conform. I feel if we applied the right to choose principles to another touchy subject we might see some wild contradictions from a lot of people all over the place.
    You said you will get the vaccine eventually. You are: informed. You are educated. You are enlightened. So do it?

    Let's just pretend - that you don't get it (when you easily could have) and you become COVID + with symptoms.

    Now you're sitting in an ICU room with labored breathing, low oxygen levels - being poked and prodded for blood gases which reveal worsening blood oxygenation markers, and now we have to stick a tube down your throat to save you life. Now you're ON a breathing machine, and you've become agitated and restless because a machine is breathing for you - so the doctor ordered me to sedate and paralyze you.

    So yes, at this stage - you were stubborn. You were hard headed. But I guess in a way, I was wrong because you have been well informed.

    As I said before - I may sound harsh, mean, or full of hate. But I'm not. I'm trying to promote good health and positive outcomes.

    I think instead of promoting some self righteous stance on "it's my choice, I can do what I want" YOU need to learn to live with the fact that people are trying to help you and prevent an issue from arising, and it shouldn't be this constant tug of war. And you want to say I'm ignorant? What are you then? Is the person in the situation above not ignorant?? This is REALITY man...

    But when I bring up a point like: if you refuse to get the vaccine when you could have, and you get into a world of hurt with COVID with bad symptoms - you should live with your own consequences right? I mean - it was YOUR choice... so you can live with YOUR results of those choices, right? You made your bed... right?

    But you and I know it never works out that way.
    Last edited by Peerless; 07-23-2021, 05:51 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • johnlimburg
    replied
    Originally posted by CanDB View Post

    I disagree. Covid is still a new disease, and when people choose to take silly risks, and not get vaccinated, they are taxing the medical system, depriving of others of receiving the care they need, while keeping things at a slower pace of recovery. If this was an ongoing, multi decade problem, I might see it different. But until this is under control, who else but governments to control things? We keep stepping backwards as we try to step forwards, which in this case is CLEARLY because people who are unvaccinated are the ones at risk, and are the ones slowing down the rest of us, who have patiently waited and waited and waited (I can say that many more times) but now worry that these people will prevent us all from moving forward. How selfish are they, unless of course, they are not able to be vaccinated.

    But the truth is, communities of people are not supporting the unvaccinated types. There are many accounts of people discontinuing business with unvaccinated people/communities. And it is a smart policy that is now allowing countries to cross borders...IF VACCINATED. Very smart. So the unvaccinated are not only potentially harming themselves, with this new fast spreading variant, and possibly causing long term damage to themselves, but are also going to pay a price when trying to deal with others, whether it be commercially or socially.

    And this will affect businesses further, and schools further, and other things we normally expect in our everyday lives.

    If not government, then who? And with so much garbage floating around, including conspiracy ridiculousness!

    This is 101 stuff JL. Get vaccinated and this covid thing pretty much goes away. Don't get vaccinated and possibly harm yourself, while taxing all those who need not be taxed any longer.
    I believe you contradict yourself in your strong stance on being an advocate of the vaccine, when you then refer to Covid as being a new disease, so just get vaccinated. I have made clear I am not really into the debate on the vaccine, my angle is more on lockdowns and being told what to do, and I will be getting the vaccine, but how can you use this argument then mock and parade as being morally superior to someone who uses that exact argument as a reason to not get the vaccine ? There argument is exactly this. That there is no long term research on the potentially negative effects of it, so they don't feel comfortable getting it. That is coming potentially from a place of fear, and you will then use the same argument when it suits ? I see contradiction there.

    Also, you can disagree all you want with my statement above, but the fact is the government makes the decision to shut things down, no one else. I am not saying it isn't a reactionary measure to what they believe is the right thing to do, but the decision to shut things down, that falls on the government, it isn't a matter of disagreeing. We can debate the cause and effect, we can debate the circumstances around the decision to shut things down, but again, the decision is made by those who can enforce stay at home orders, fine people for ignoring them, implement restrictions, etc. That is simply a fact, the government decides.

    As I stated, I understand the argument that opening things up right now could have negative consequences for the health care system, but what about the multitude of other systems and areas of society that are being effected by mass lockdowns ? I think focusing on just the negative consequences to the health care system is ignorant to the fact that so many other areas are being dragged through the ringer right now all over the world due to lockdowns. I won't even get into them, you know what they are, so why is the focus solely on the health care system ? I understand health is wealth and the most important aspect of life, but the vaccine is there, those who have chosen to get it have done a great thing, and more people will continue to as well, they should feel secure in returning to a functioning society as we once knew. I also think the understanding of the infection continues to increase day by day as qualified and knowledgeable people research and investigate all areas of it increasing understanding even further. We have also lived with Covid now for 18 months, taking the lumps, and we can now adequately prepare for outbreaks and more infection in the community better than ever before, the heath care system is better equipped and better prepared than ever before. Which with all that leads me to my point, I believe you start to limit restrictions and gradually return to normality. Will the health care system have challenges ahead ? Of course, but it's time to take the blinders off in my opinion and realise not everyone will conform, and this thing will not be going away, so it's time to get on with things.

    Onto your statement of ,"If not government then who ?" No one. Personal choice trumps all in every situation in my opinion unless it is breaking the law. I guess it comes down to how you see the role of government, and that is where despite us probably agreeing on most things like getting the vaccine, wearing masks, etc. we don't agree on the right of government to control society on mass scale like they are, guilting people into something, and that is being exhibited everywhere around the world right now, and we wont be agreeing on that anytime soon I don't think.

    Finally, I will get vaccinated, but your obsession with it and those who don't want it only fuels the divisiveness, how haven't people gotten that yet ? You are talking to people who have their back up already, are as Peerless described, probably stubborn and hard headed, so the approach needs to change. If you are a person who really wants everyone to see it like you do, to get everyone onboard with what you call 101 stuff, the current approach so many take just isn't working. Understanding perspectives of the other party would go a long way in a lot of these discussions in trying to get to the goal of what I think yours would be, to get everyone vaccinated, because right now stating things like, it's 101 stuff, get vaccinated and this thing goes away, doesn't convince a hostile maybe ill-informed person to change their mind, it does the exact opposite.

    Originally posted by CanDB View Post
    As for The NFL, how can you blame them if their business is under huge attack, revenue wise and logistics wise as well? If teams have to forfeit games, it is beyond acceptable when you have a vaccine. Last year was different. But now we have the cure, and pretty much the only way we see covid outbreaks is if unvaccinated players catch the virus. It's simple.

    I don't know about you folks, but if you are a business owner and employees take unnecessary health risks, risks that may alter your business in a very negative way, too bad for them. This is again, 101 stuff.
    Private business is well within their right. As an employee you opt into their policy, and if they decide to change it, then you have a decision to make. A union also has a right in that circumstance to defend the workforce and due process then followed. A business like the NFL also then takes the risk that potential contract breaches on their end could occur with this change in policy, and they may be made liable in that circumstance. The NFL also takes the risk that the consumer of their product may walk away due to the stance being taken, as certain segments of the market feel very strongly about this topic. These elements are all fair play. However, when you apply these same thought processes to government, you are not discussing the same thing as you are when discussing a private business.

    Leave a comment:


  • JvDub95
    replied
    Originally posted by CanDB View Post
    As for The NFL, how can you blame them if their business is under huge attack, revenue wise and logistics wise as well? If teams have to forfeit games, it is beyond acceptable when you have a vaccine. Last year was different. But now we have the cure, and pretty much the only way we see covid outbreaks is if unvaccinated players catch the virus. It's simple.

    I don't know about you folks, but if you are a business owner and employees take unnecessary health risks, risks that may alter your business in a very negative way, too bad for them. This is again, 101 stuff.
    My issue is EVEN THE VACCINATED will test positive. Is it going to be the ones who didn't get the jab "be the issue" even though they still need to adhere to last years rules? Unvaxed still need to go through all the protocol standards but vaxed can "live free".....who are the ones who will be spreading it??

    Leave a comment:


  • CanDB
    replied
    As for The NFL, how can you blame them if their business is under huge attack, revenue wise and logistics wise as well? If teams have to forfeit games, it is beyond acceptable when you have a vaccine. Last year was different. But now we have the cure, and pretty much the only way we see covid outbreaks is if unvaccinated players catch the virus. It's simple.

    I don't know about you folks, but if you are a business owner and employees take unnecessary health risks, risks that may alter your business in a very negative way, too bad for them. This is again, 101 stuff.

    Leave a comment:


  • CanDB
    replied
    Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
    The personal choice of individuals should be honoured, a government should never be able to dictate how anyone acts, lives, or operates within society. That doesn't mean I am against the vaccine, but I feel governments everywhere are just overstepping their boundaries in the guise of protection of the citizens, things are going too far. They are probably genuine in their efforts, but the responses are bordering on authoritarianism now, and I would imagine the players union will take a large issue if players are forced to take vaccines at any point against their will. Although, the NFL is a private enterprise, and they would be well within their rights to enforce such efforts. Could become messy if star players on high cap numbers refuse the vaccine though, teams will have no legal standing on voiding contracts on the basis of the player's refusal to comply.
    I disagree. Covid is still a new disease, and when people choose to take silly risks, and not get vaccinated, they are taxing the medical system, depriving of others of receiving the care they need, while keeping things at a slower pace of recovery. If this was an ongoing, multi decade problem, I might see it different. But until this is under control, who else but governments to control things? We keep stepping backwards as we try to step forwards, which in this case is CLEARLY because people who are unvaccinated are the ones at risk, and are the ones slowing down the rest of us, who have patiently waited and waited and waited (I can say that many more times) but now worry that these people will prevent us all from moving forward. How selfish are they, unless of course, they are not able to be vaccinated.

    But the truth is, communities of people are not supporting the unvaccinated types. There are many accounts of people discontinuing business with unvaccinated people/communities. And it is a smart policy that is now allowing countries to cross borders...IF VACCINATED. Very smart. So the unvaccinated are not only potentially harming themselves, with this new fast spreading variant, and possibly causing long term damage to themselves, but are also going to pay a price when trying to deal with others, whether it be commercially or socially.

    And this will affect businesses further, and schools further, and other things we normally expect in our everyday lives.

    If not government, then who? And with so much garbage floating around, including conspiracy ridiculousness!

    This is 101 stuff JL. Get vaccinated and this covid thing pretty much goes away. Don't get vaccinated and possibly harm yourself, while taxing all those who need not be taxed any longer.
    Last edited by CanDB; 07-23-2021, 04:31 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • johnlimburg
    replied
    Originally posted by Peerless View Post
    You're right.. That's another broken system. Fortunately for you and I - taking a vaccine is a very simple and easy process to sign up and do, and doesn't invovle a lot of logistics.

    It's just the fact that people are stubborn, ill informed, or plainly being hard-headed (until of course they come in BEGGING and NEEDING help).
    While in a large number of cases you are probably right in your 3 descriptors here, you are also forgetting people who just don't personally see a need for them to go and get the vaccine right now, and are kind of unfazed. I was one, I will get the vaccine eventually, but I have not been in any rush to go and get it. Maybe I might be an idiot who at one point regrets my decision, but calling anyone who doesn't conform in this scenario "stubborn, ill-informed, or hardheaded", essentially anyone not agreeing with you, is quite ignorant in my opinion. But I respect your angle from your point of view based on your profession, but not everyone will see it like you. Maybe at some point, you need to learn to live with that and move on from the hostility and the feeling of needing to talk down to folks. I think you have to respect the right of people also to feel they should be able to choose what to do with their bodies, and not be guilted into extended lockdowns if they don't conform. I feel if we applied the right to choose principles to another touchy subject we might see some wild contradictions from a lot of people all over the place.

    Leave a comment:


  • Peerless
    replied
    Originally posted by JvDub95 View Post
    Absolutely they should get the care. Isn't it a hospitals duty to care for regardless of financial or wellbeing situation in life?
    See - that's unfortunately why the health care system in America is broken to be honest.

    We can't turn anybody away. Look at this:

    Obese smoker man who eats butter by the gallon all day needs a heart bypass because of his daily chest pains which showed that he has x4 blocked coronary arteries.

    Obese smoker man comes in and gets a CABG x4 -a new chance at life.

    Obese smoker man gets educated on preventative measures for cardiac problems - increase physical activity, stop smoking, eat healthy foods, etc.

    Obese smoker man says " that" - lights up a dart, upgrades from butter to crisco by the gallon, and develops a pressure sore on his ass from sitting in his recliner for 20hrs of the day.

    Obese smoker man and his NEW grafted arteries are new clogged AGAIN - and he comes back to the hospital for more help as he is having CRUSHING chest pain. He's panicking, he's irritable, he's short of breath. His face is now starting to turn blue, his eyes are rolling back in his head, he's now lost his airwway. The same nurse and doctor who helped him after his first bypass is now starting life saving measures, but unfortunately obese smoker man succumbs to his broken heart and body. Now his family is pissed at the hospital and staff, yelling that they sucked because they didn't save him...

    Get the point?

    And your wrong actually. it's the hospitals job to take care of issues - but also an important job that people don't seem to grasp or understand - it's the health care professionals and hospitals job to EDUCATE patients on measures to prevent health care issues, so you don't come to the hospital in the first place.

    As you can see from the article (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/louisia...hospital-unit/) some people are just stupid and don't care (until of course they are having a problem).



    Originally posted by JvDub95 View Post
    People that "choose" not to work but are still perfectly capable of working still get taken care of by our awesome government. They can get off their butts and help but they choose not to because our awesome government says we'll take of you. Do they deserve your and my tax dollars? If they are going to give one set of standards for one group doesn't that work for all in other circumstances?
    You're right.. That's another broken system. Fortunately for you and I - taking a vaccine is a very simple and easy process to sign up and do, and doesn't invovle a lot of logistics.

    It's just the fact that people are stubborn, ill informed, or plainly being hard-headed (until of course they come in BEGGING and NEEDING help).
    Last edited by Peanut; 07-23-2021, 06:06 PM. Reason: Deleted a letter.

    Leave a comment:

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