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  • Originally posted by 58Miller View Post

    Asking about the deaths and hospitalizations is not anti vaccine. It’s a question that should be answered. If someone has a 99.7% chance of surviving Covid is injecting a synthetic acid in your body wise?
    My comment is more of a lingering one, given that it appears there are ongoing suspicions about the "counts", the vaccine itself, Fauci and otherwise. It "feels" like there are concerns of that nature. Whereas I see most things aligned; covid was greatly mismanaged last year by many countries; the numbers may not be accurate, but they were significantly high, reflecting a real problem in spite of concerns from some who keep challenging the info given it seems to be making covid a worse thing than it is....I could care less if they were even out 10% in exact cause of death, given how freakin high the numbers are, and there are studies that suggest covid caused more deaths than reported; I know I am not supposed to talk political, so I will say this objectively as possible, that I think viewpoints are often based on party preference.....and I believe party should have zero bearing in a catastrophe; the current US President and his team have done a really good job attacking this issue with a logistically sound process, much better than was done last year. They are using a plan; Vaccines were always going to be a big part of the solution, and they are in my books, other than strategic management by countries like New Zealand, Australia and South Korea. Based on the stats I read, vaccines are proving to be extremely valuable in the cause to move us forward, and start being confident again.

    As for your question....at some point I believe you have to make hard decisions, and not wait for lengthy periods to give answers to questions like yours. If the medical/scientific community does its job, which was under some severe stress I'll add, then I definitely take the vaccine, because the alternative of waiting and questioning can be very disruptive to the organized effort to get healthy again. Each day folks die from covid, and each day, many are still sick and may suffer long term damage. Waiting for additional info to what the medical/scientific community feel confident about is not my way of progressing. I do have trust in them. They have been correct in 90+% of what was going to happen and how it would be taken care of. People tend to cherry pick what went wrong, or the details of the case/death numbers, or what one medical authority stated in the infancy of this pandemic. Where's the respect for these folks, who in spite of political interference, got most of it right...in a situation that was as new as it gets, and as downright dangerous as it gets? I have plenty of respect for that community. And if their conclusions take care of the question you ask, I am 100% behind them. In fact, I am quite certain they did not take chances, in spite of the amazing turnaround time, because drugs must meet extremely high standards, and in this case, there are multiple companies involved, and a gazillion ethical scientists/medical experts who endorse the products. Any sign of concern is quickly dealt with.

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    • Originally posted by CanDB View Post

      My comment is more of a lingering one, given that it appears there are ongoing suspicions about the "counts", the vaccine itself, Fauci and otherwise. It "feels" like there are concerns of that nature. Whereas I see most things aligned; covid was greatly mismanaged last year by many countries; the numbers may not be accurate, but they were significantly high, reflecting a real problem in spite of concerns from some who keep challenging the info given it seems to be making covid a worse thing than it is....I could care less if they were even out 10% in exact cause of death, given how freakin high the numbers are, and there are studies that suggest covid caused more deaths than reported; I know I am not supposed to talk political, so I will say this objectively as possible, that I think viewpoints are often based on party preference.....and I believe party should have zero bearing in a catastrophe; the current US President and his team have done a really good job attacking this issue with a logistically sound process, much better than was done last year. They are using a plan; Vaccines were always going to be a big part of the solution, and they are in my books, other than strategic management by countries like New Zealand, Australia and South Korea. Based on the stats I read, vaccines are proving to be extremely valuable in the cause to move us forward, and start being confident again.

      As for your question....at some point I believe you have to make hard decisions, and not wait for lengthy periods to give answers to questions like yours. If the medical/scientific community does its job, which was under some severe stress I'll add, then I definitely take the vaccine, because the alternative of waiting and questioning can be very disruptive to the organized effort to get healthy again. Each day folks die from covid, and each day, many are still sick and may suffer long term damage. Waiting for additional info to what the medical/scientific community feel confident about is not my way of progressing. I do have trust in them. They have been correct in 90+% of what was going to happen and how it would be taken care of. People tend to cherry pick what went wrong, or the details of the case/death numbers, or what one medical authority stated in the infancy of this pandemic. Where's the respect for these folks, who in spite of political interference, got most of it right...in a situation that was as new as it gets, and as downright dangerous as it gets? I have plenty of respect for that community. And if their conclusions take care of the question you ask, I am 100% behind them. In fact, I am quite certain they did not take chances, in spite of the amazing turnaround time, because drugs must meet extremely high standards, and in this case, there are multiple companies involved, and a gazillion ethical scientists/medical experts who endorse the products. Any sign of concern is quickly dealt with.
      Covid cases, hospitalizations, and deaths have also been cherry picked. I believe Covid is deadly to a small percentage of our population and we should do all in our power to protect them. I also think we should have accurate data on what side effects and long term risks the vaccine’s can cause.

      I would never suggest someone shouldn’t take the vaccine or that they should. I think each person should research and decide for themselves based on what is best for them and their situation period!!!!

      Think about if you pressure someone not to get vaccinated and they get sick? Or if you pressure someone to get vaccinated and they get really sick. In both cases it’s should be up to the individual.
      Last edited by 58Miller; 05-29-2021, 01:33 PM.
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      • Originally posted by 58Miller View Post

        Covid cases, hospitalizations, and deaths have also been cherry picked. I believe Covid is deadly to a small percentage of our population and we should do all in our power to protect them. I also think we should have accurate data on what side effects and long term risks the vaccine’s can cause.

        I would never suggest someone shouldn’t take the vaccine or that they should. I think each person should research and decide for themselves.
        I agree that relevant data is critical, but I also believe that those involved, who have ethical responsibility, have a process that does not leave stones uncovered with respect to likelihood of problems. They conduct business with due diligence. There is no room for error for various reasons, one being the basic aspect of liability. The cost of failing their patients and causing them harm, maybe death, is unimaginable if it became a very real flaw. But more than that, these folks believe in what they do, and how to do it. They do not shoot for failure in any way, shape or form.

        I do not agree necessarily that a small % of the population is in any possible danger. It is far too early for that assumption to be made. I know you are big on the health of the citizens, and it is a relevant factor no doubt, but there is plenty of evidence that healthy folks have died, or been very ill.

        And I for one believe that as team players, we should strongly consider receiving the vaccine. I believe that the less sick we all are, the better off we'll all be. I've seen far too much of the spread of the virus because folks thought they knew more than the experts. They disobeyed rules, or interpreted them as they wished, and when there were outbreaks we'd often find out that it was because of irresponsible behaviour, or lack of proper knowledge perhaps. As the saying goes, "take your medicine", and carry on. No doubt, you may be lucky and avoid the virus with no vaccine, but cmon, you have to appreciate the linkage between the massive vaccine roll out and the shrinking caseload.

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        • Originally posted by CanDB View Post

          I agree that relevant data is critical, but I also believe that those involved, who have ethical responsibility, have a process that does not leave stones uncovered with respect to likelihood of problems. They conduct business with due diligence. There is no room for error for various reasons, one being the basic aspect of liability. The cost of failing their patients and causing them harm, maybe death, is unimaginable if it became a very real flaw. But more than that, these folks believe in what they do, and how to do it. They do not shoot for failure in any way, shape or form.

          I do not agree necessarily that a small % of the population is in any possible danger. It is far too early for that assumption to be made. I know you are big on the health of the citizens, and it is a relevant factor no doubt, but there is plenty of evidence that healthy folks have died, or been very ill.

          And I for one believe that as team players, we should strongly consider receiving the vaccine. I believe that the less sick we all are, the better off we'll all be. I've seen far too much of the spread of the virus because folks thought they knew more than the experts. They disobeyed rules, or interpreted them as they wished, and when there were outbreaks we'd often find out that it was because of irresponsible behaviour, or lack of proper knowledge perhaps. As the saying goes, "take your medicine", and carry on. No doubt, you may be lucky and avoid the virus with no vaccine, but cmon, you have to appreciate the linkage between the massive vaccine roll out and the shrinking caseload.
          Luck? The majority of people that get Covid don’t even have symptoms. The elderly and those with underlying conditions have been the 95% or more of those hospitalized and died. They are who should be protected. Pressuring a healthy person to get the vaccine is ridiculous!!!! Encourage them, let them do the research and leave it alone. If vaccines work then those with the vaccine have nothing to worry about. I supported masks in public places but the vaccine push is out of control. People have gotten very sick and in some cases died. It’s a serious decision, and very odd that people are being paid and given gifts for taking it. Nobody is giving out gifts and prizes for people living a healthy lifestyle, the reward is in having a better quality of life.

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          • Originally posted by 58Miller View Post
            Luck? The majority of people that get Covid don’t even have symptoms. The elderly and those with underlying conditions have been the 95% or more of those hospitalized and died. They are who should be protected. Pressuring a healthy person to get the vaccine is ridiculous!!!! Encourage them, let them do the research and leave it alone. If vaccines work then those with the vaccine have nothing to worry about. I supported masks in public places but the vaccine push is out of control. People have gotten very sick and in some cases died. It’s a serious decision, and very odd that people are being paid and given gifts for taking it. Nobody is giving out gifts and prizes for people living a healthy lifestyle, the reward is in having a better quality of life.
            As for "luck".....yes, many of us have been lucky. Wrong place, wrong time. That's called luck. On any given day, if we turn left instead of right, our whole life might change. But my circle of family/friends play be the rules, and I still think one or more of us got lucky. You know how that one person walked too close to you, and on a good day they were virus free, but on a bad day, they were a carrier. And because many of us, even those who think they are too healthy to get impacted, could get ill or worse, or quietly spread it because we did not have symptoms,....so I say some of us got lucky. I stand by it. It's like driving...you do everything correct and are the victim of a terrible driver.

            I never said pressure anyone either, but I strongly recommend they get vaccinated. And there is nothing ridiculous about trying to push "so called" healthy folks to get the vaccine, There are plenty of people who think they are healthy, and then they get a check up to find they have high blood pressure, or high cholesterol, or even some other condition or disease they did not know they had. So even though I believe you are healthy based on what you have stated here, there are plenty of others who might think they are, but are not.

            Bottom line, if you feel so strongly about your complete immunity to any form of sickness related to this virus, please at least make sure that you do not accidentally spread it. Because even though your inner circle may be strong as well, you never know where they spread it, and possibly that could include someone less healthy, per your definition.

            As for rewards and such, I have not really thought about it much.



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            • Originally posted by 58Miller View Post

              Covid cases, hospitalizations, and deaths have also been cherry picked. I believe Covid is deadly to a small percentage of our population and we should do all in our power to protect them. I also think we should have accurate data on what side effects and long term risks the vaccine’s can cause.

              I would never suggest someone shouldn’t take the vaccine or that they should. I think each person should research and decide for themselves based on what is best for them and their situation period!!!!

              Think about if you pressure someone not to get vaccinated and they get sick? Or if you pressure someone to get vaccinated and they get really sick. In both cases it’s should be up to the individual.
              That's one of the biggest problems in this country. So many people are too ignorant and lack the ability to engage their common sense when all of the needed facts and proven information is right in front of their face. This pandemic has finally reached a place where it's almost completely under control and the remedies / cures can be labeled as "abundant low hanging ripe fruit," but they refuse to pick it. They assume it contains worms or is poisonous so they completely ignore it even though there's a sign in front of every tree that states: "All fruit is free and 100% organic and safe and farmed by vegans. Just help yourself. Call this toll free number below for more reliable information."

              If only some people could get out of their own way to make the world safer for themselves AND others.
              Utah Bronco Freak

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              • Originally posted by jazzbodog View Post

                That's one of the biggest problems in this country. So many people are too ignorant and lack the ability to engage their common sense when all of the needed facts and proven information is right in front of their face. This pandemic has finally reached a place where it's almost completely under control and the remedies / cures can be labeled as "abundant low hanging ripe fruit," but they refuse to pick it. They assume it contains worms or is poisonous so they completely ignore it even though there's a sign in front of every tree that states: "All fruit is free and 100% organic and safe and farmed by vegans. Just help yourself. Call this toll free number below for more reliable information."

                If only some people could get out of their own way to make the world safer for themselves AND others.
                I know.....this has got to be the lowest hanging fruit on the farm. Any lower and you could pick it while laying on your back.
                Last edited by CanDB; 05-29-2021, 08:12 PM.

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                • Originally posted by CanDB View Post

                  As for "luck".....yes, many of us have been lucky. Wrong place, wrong time. That's called luck. On any given day, if we turn left instead of right, our whole life might change. But my circle of family/friends play be the rules, and I still think one or more of us got lucky. You know how that one person walked too close to you, and on a good day they were virus free, but on a bad day, they were a carrier. And because many of us, even those who think they are too healthy to get impacted, could get ill or worse, or quietly spread it because we did not have symptoms,....so I say some of us got lucky. I stand by it. It's like driving...you do everything correct and are the victim of a terrible driver.

                  I never said pressure anyone either, but I strongly recommend they get vaccinated. And there is nothing ridiculous about trying to push "so called" healthy folks to get the vaccine, There are plenty of people who think they are healthy, and then they get a check up to find they have high blood pressure, or high cholesterol, or even some other condition or disease they did not know they had. So even though I believe you are healthy based on what you have stated here, there are plenty of others who might think they are, but are not.

                  Bottom line, if you feel so strongly about your complete immunity to any form of sickness related to this virus, please at least make sure that you do not accidentally spread it. Because even though your inner circle may be strong as well, you never know where they spread it, and possibly that could include someone less healthy, per your definition.

                  As for rewards and such, I have not really thought about it much.


                  If the vaccine protects the vaccinated from getting Covid then each person is responsible and worrying about people who choose not to get vaccinated shouldn’t matter.

                  My wife got the vaccine and I support her decision I am not comfortable with my 13 & 14 year old daughters being injected with a synthetic acid that nobody knows the long term effects of!!!
                  Last edited by 58Miller; 05-30-2021, 08:06 AM.
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                  • Originally posted by 58Miller View Post
                    If the vaccine protects the vaccinated from getting Covid then each person is responsible and worrying about people who choose not to get vaccinated shouldn’t matter.

                    My wife got the vaccine and I support her decision I am not comfortable with my 13 & 14 year old daughters being injected with a synthetic acid that nobody knows the long term effects of!!!
                    I am not here to tell you to vaccinate your young daughters. I honestly don't have a strong opinion about young folks (of that age) getting the vaccine. If the numbers of younger folks was significant, I might have a stronger stance. And though the variants seem to be attacking a younger population base than the original virus, at this time I think 13/14 is debatable. I wish they would, for their own protection, but I am not an expert in terms of age and effect. And I understand if you have such concerns.

                    I do think you are making the vaccine sound worse by your description of "synthetic acid", because we could make many everyday things sound awful if we use the medical/scientific terminology. All I have pushed here, and everywhere else in my life, is to respect others' lives when you make decisions. Sometimes we are inconvenienced because people we come in contact with are weaker or have a condition or can not handle the same things we can. But good human beings take that into account when they make decisions. If I was a smoker I would not smoke close to those who have an issue with smoking. If I was a risky driver, enjoying high speeds, I would not race where everyday folks drive. If I was really strong, I would not use my physical strength to overpower those who did not deserve it. I believe that, for the majority of the time, if you are given certain skills/talents/traits....you are given a little extra responsibility in this world. To use appropriately. This is not always about positive traits either. Just because I for example, could bench much more than my body weight., does not mean I should bully folks who I know I can bully. (Note: I am not even close to being described as super strong, but it may be relevant in situations I've experienced,)

                    So with covid, my MO has been relatively the same, given what we all knew/know. That I should protect myself, and those around me. And be even more respectful of those who might be weak, or have a condition or situation, that makes them more prone to whatever the experts say is relevant to this horrific disease that has claimed so many lives, sickened so many people (perhaps long term), and caused so much other grief. And in all of this, I continue to believe that we are a community of humans, and it is our individual and collective job to work together in times like this. It comes under the auspices of "humanity".

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by CanDB View Post

                      I am not here to tell you to vaccinate your young daughters. I honestly don't have a strong opinion about young folks (of that age) getting the vaccine. If the numbers of younger folks was significant, I might have a stronger stance. And though the variants seem to be attacking a younger population base than the original virus, at this time I think 13/14 is debatable. I wish they would, for their own protection, but I am not an expert in terms of age and effect. And I understand if you have such concerns.

                      I do think you are making the vaccine sound worse by your description of "synthetic acid", because we could make many everyday things sound awful if we use the medical/scientific terminology. All I have pushed here, and everywhere else in my life, is to respect others' lives when you make decisions. Sometimes we are inconvenienced because people we come in contact with are weaker or have a condition or can not handle the same things we can. But good human beings take that into account when they make decisions. If I was a smoker I would not smoke close to those who have an issue with smoking. If I was a risky driver, enjoying high speeds, I would not race where everyday folks drive. If I was really strong, I would not use my physical strength to overpower those who did not deserve it. I believe that, for the majority of the time, if you are given certain skills/talents/traits....you are given a little extra responsibility in this world. To use appropriately. This is not always about positive traits either. Just because I for example, could bench much more than my body weight., does not mean I should bully folks who I know I can bully. (Note: I am not even close to being described as super strong, but it may be relevant in situations I've experienced,)

                      So with covid, my MO has been relatively the same, given what we all knew/know. That I should protect myself, and those around me. And be even more respectful of those who might be weak, or have a condition or situation, that makes them more prone to whatever the experts say is relevant to this horrific disease that has claimed so many lives, sickened so many people (perhaps long term), and caused so much other grief. And in all of this, I continue to believe that we are a community of humans, and it is our individual and collective job to work together in times like this. It comes under the auspices of "humanity".
                      I believe I have respected others lives, by wearing my mask. Now it seems the goalpost have been moved to “ you don’t care about others if your not vaccinated”.

                      I call it a synthetic acid because that’s what it is:

                      The definition of RNA (ribonucleic acid)

                      The vaccine transfects molecules of synthetic RNA into immunity cells. Once inside the immune cells, the vaccine's RNA functions as mRNA, causing the cells to build the foreign protein that would normally be produced by a pathogen(such as a virus) or by a cancer cell.

                      The Moderna and Pfizer vaccines use mRNA technology, and the Johnson & Johnson vaccine uses the more traditional virus-based technology.

                      Last edited by 58Miller; 05-30-2021, 09:01 AM.
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                      • Originally posted by CanDB View Post

                        I know.....this has got to be the lowest hanging fruit on the farm. Any lower and you could pick it while laying on your back.
                        Great analogy Can. Reminds me of the saying....There's people who would complain if they were hung with a brand new, American made rope,"

                        When people state they legally don't have to be part of the solution, that automatically makes them part of the problem forcing others to suffer
                        and pick up the slack. Very selfish and sad.....
                        Utah Bronco Freak

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                        • Originally posted by jazzbodog View Post

                          Great analogy Can. Reminds me of the saying....There's people who would complain if they were hung with a brand new, American made rope,"

                          When people state they legally don't have to be part of the solution, that automatically makes them part of the problem forcing others to suffer
                          and pick up the slack. Very selfish and sad.....
                          So people who don’t get vaccinated are the problem? Please explain how your vaccine doesn’t work if someone else isn’t vaccinated!

                          And what happen to masks? I thought they were the way to fight the virus.

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                          • An interesting fact to note is no animal study went beyond 56 days presumably because the immediate goal was to prove mRNA vaccines could mount a good immune response with little acute adverse effects. Hence, we have no data even in animal studies as to long term adverse effects of mRNA vaccines. mRNA vaccines are still considered experimental and people receiving these vaccines are part of the experiment. Long term data is currently being collected until 2022. Bottom line is we don’t know the long term adverse effects.
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                            • Originally posted by 58Miller View Post
                              I believe I have respected others lives, by wearing my mask. Now it seems the goalpost have been moved to “ you don’t care about others if your not vaccinated”.

                              I call it a synthetic acid because that’s what it is:

                              The definition of RNA (ribonucleic acid)

                              The vaccine transfects molecules of synthetic RNA into immunity cells. Once inside the immune cells, the vaccine's RNA functions as mRNA, causing the cells to build the foreign protein that would normally be produced by a pathogen(such as a virus) or by a cancer cell.

                              The Moderna and Pfizer vaccines use mRNA technology, and the Johnson & Johnson vaccine uses the more traditional virus-based technology.
                              SM-102 is the 1st ingredient listed in the Moderna vaccine.....

                              "SM-102 (heptadecan-9-yl 8-((2-hydroxyethyl) (6-oxo-6-(undecyloxy) hexyl) amino) octanoate) is an ionizable amino lipid that has been used in combination with other lipids in the formation of lipid nanoparticles. Administration of luciferase with mRNA in SM-102-containing lipid nanoparticles induces hepatic luciferase expression in mice. Formulations containing SM-102 have been used in the development of lipid nanoparticles for delivery of mRNA-based vaccines."

                              all "fact check" sites are going to say it's safe....sure it is

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                              • Originally posted by 58Miller View Post
                                So people who don’t get vaccinated are the problem? Please explain how your vaccine doesn’t work if someone else isn’t vaccinated!

                                And what happen to masks? I thought they were the way to fight the virus.
                                My wife and I will have received our 2nd shots in a couple of weeks....but that will not stop me from wearing a mask in certain situations. It's a "several pronged approach". Masks, distancing, cleanliness, 2 shots of vaccine....and whatever else adds any value to the cause. That does include your take on health.

                                I may be old school, but if the experts advise me to take this vaccine, I take it. Lets be clear, there are typically side effects and possible negative outcomes with many meds/injected things we live with. I don't like anesthetics, but I do not like surgery without it. I do not love needles in my mouth, but have you ever struck a raw nerve in your tooth? I don't like having too many x-rays, but if I have a broken bone, I think it should be checked out. If doctors ever tell me that I need certain meds to allow me to live a decent life, I will not have to think too long about it. And in this case, if the experts, and I repeat that a lot, advise me that this vaccine will do me and my community more good than harm, I make that a key part of my decision.

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