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  • Originally posted by Hadez View Post

    Not good enough to the companies making the vaccines

    Pfizer and Moderna both working on booster shots.

    I can not get through a 2 hour cycle of any major news source without there being a 2-3 min story warning people about the new variants.
    But in some ways, I think it's a tough but important message to bang home. Facts are useful, especially in terms of a health narrative. Prior to the vaccines, this was not a given. There was a lot of old and less healthy folks being the victims, at least that was the argument for those who thought this pandemic was exaggerated.....but now it's clear, it's non vaccinated folks who are bearing the brunt of the downside effect. Wouldn't that be worth knowing, especially for those who might be misled to believe that it's still about the old and less healthy/vulnerable?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by CanDB View Post

      But in some ways, I think it's a tough but important message to bang home. Facts are useful, especially in terms of a health narrative. Prior to the vaccines, this was not a given. There was a lot of old and less healthy folks being the victims, at least that was the argument for those who thought this pandemic was exaggerated.....but now it's clear, it's non vaccinated folks who are bearing the brunt of the downside effect. Wouldn't that be worth knowing, especially for those who might be misled to believe that it's still about the old and less healthy/vulnerable?
      yea if you want me to share in your message I can quote how few deaths are vaccinated people. I think the number in the USA is like 0.8% of deaths are vaccinated people over some time frame I can not recall off hand.. I do not have the hospitalized data handy but I think it is similar....most people going to hospital are not vaccinated.

      Guess the point I am trying to also ask people to be aware of things like the immune system, other therapies and other treatments.

      I do not want to say anything anti vaccine but the spike protein is dangerous...if there is any one thing people should go in deep on it is researching the various things Covid19.
      Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Hadez View Post
        I do not want to say anything anti vaccine but the spike protein is dangerous...if there is any one thing people should go in deep on it is researching the various things Covid19.
        Do you have any source with data - specifically scientific data to support this?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hadez View Post

          yea if you want me to share in your message I can quote how few deaths are vaccinated people. I think the number in the USA is like 0.8% of deaths are vaccinated people over some time frame I can not recall off hand.. I do not have the hospitalized data handy but I think it is similar....most people going to hospital are not vaccinated.

          Guess the point I am trying to also ask people to be aware of things like the immune system, other therapies and other treatments.

          I do not want to say anything anti vaccine but the spike protein is dangerous...if there is any one thing people should go in deep on it is researching the various things Covid19.
          Originally posted by Peerless View Post

          Do you have any source with data - specifically scientific data to support this?
          So in case others don't know what you mean, what is spike protein and who says it is dangerous? After all this time, I have very little awareness of it. Means nothing what I know, but if it's basically an unknown at this stage of the game, I have my doubts about it. The science of it all would be discussing it by now, and would alter whatever seems to be the issue.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by CanDB View Post



            So in case others don't know what you mean, what is spike protein and who says it is dangerous? After all this time, I have very little awareness of it. Means nothing what I know, but if it's basically an unknown at this stage of the game, I have my doubts about it. The science of it all would be discussing it by now, and would alter whatever seems to be the issue.
            Once again I am not going to say anything negative about the vaccines. There is plenty of information out there if one wants to do their own homework. LA area is reporting 99% of people going to hospitals and dying are not vaccinated. I am team Pfizer.


            Beyond that are we trying to argue the spike protein in general is dangerous? Guess tell me a science source you trust and I will look and see what they say about it.
            Last edited by Hadez; 07-14-2021, 09:26 AM.
            Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Hadez View Post

              Once again I am not going to say anything negative about the vaccines. There is plenty of information out there if one wants to do their own homework. LA area is reporting 99% of people going to hospitals and dying are not vaccinated. I am team Pfizer.


              Beyond that are we trying to argue the spike protein in general is dangerous? Guess tell me a science source you trust and I will look and see what they say about it.
              Peerless and I are asking the same question. What source do you have? Because on the surface it's comments like that which give non vaccinated folks more ammunition to not get vaccinated, even without evidence. We should promote science and facts, and when we hear things like "dangerous" we immediately think something is bad. And yet I am not sure I have heard anything about this, and I doubt that most people I know have heard about it. Not saying we are all geniuses, but overall we are well read, and typically informed. We take this pandemic and everything about it very seriously. And pretty much everyone I hang with is fully vaccinated. Certainly everyone of my age group that I talk to.

              Further to (just updated)...

              I just heard that in at least one location, 99% of the covid patients are unvaccinated!!! And yes, younger. The variant is the new problem, that is, if unvaccinated. It spreads quickly and is in fact dangerous to many.

              So Hadez, don't mind me, but until something is proven to be dangerous, I would not promote the concept. because far too many unvaccinated folks might buy in, and possibly wish they had reconsidered later.
              Last edited by CanDB; 07-14-2021, 10:26 AM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by CanDB View Post

                Peerless and I are asking the same question. What source do you have? Because on the surface it's comments like that which give non vaccinated folks more ammunition to not get vaccinated, even without evidence. We should promote science and facts, and when we hear things like "dangerous" we immediately think something is bad. And yet I am not sure I have heard anything about this, and I doubt that most people I know have heard about it. Not saying we are all geniuses, but overall we are well read, and typically informed. We take this pandemic and everything about it very seriously. And pretty much everyone I hang with is fully vaccinated. Certainly everyone of my age group that I talk to.

                Further to (just updated)...

                I just heard that in at least one location, 99% of the covid patients are unvaccinated!!! And yes, younger. The variant is the new problem, that is, if unvaccinated. It spreads quickly and is in fact dangerous to many.

                So Hadez, don't mind me, but until something is proven to be dangerous, I would not promote the concept. because far too many unvaccinated folks might buy in, and possibly wish they had reconsidered later.
                So you do not think the Spike Protein is dangerous? Why exactly do you think Covid19 is causing the Pandemic?

                Again tell me a science source you trust and I am sure I can find something there about the Spike Protein and how is wrecking havoc on people in the Pandemic.
                Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Hadez View Post

                  So you do not think the Spike Protein is dangerous? Why exactly do you think Covid19 is causing the Pandemic?

                  Again tell me a science source you trust and I am sure I can find something there about the Spike Protein and how is wrecking havoc on people in the Pandemic.
                  But for those reading, can you please explain what it is? Because I can assure you that most folks do not know.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by CanDB View Post

                    But for those reading, can you please explain what it is? Because I can assure you that most folks do not know.
                    This is a good place to start for someone new to the subject

                    https://www.news-medical.net/health/...-Proteins.aspx
                    Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Hadez View Post

                      This is a good place to start for someone new to the subject

                      https://www.news-medical.net/health/...-Proteins.aspx
                      So for the readers, what does it mean in terms of those who are vaccinated? Are we in danger?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by CanDB View Post

                        So for the readers, what does it mean in terms of those who are vaccinated? Are we in danger?
                        That is about the Spike Protein.

                        Are we in danger? Do you think anyone really knows for sure ?
                        Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

                        Comment


                        • I am confused when it comes to the "Delta" strain/variant of the disease. Here in Australia, if you read my last long-ranting post about lockdowns, it has extended due to roughly 80-100 community cases being evident per day. We will remain in lockdown and the government has the guilt-tripping ads coming in hot and heavy, they are loving their power over us.

                          The news cycle is driving home how much danger we are in this time around because of this variant, but what confuses me is, we have had 1 death as a result of it. The news keeps saying how important these lockdowns are for our future as we are in a more "deadly" situation now than at the start of the pandemic, but the results don't indicate that here.

                          What is annoying me is, we keep being told these things, and I am in no way anti-vaccine as I have made clear, but in Australia I believe we have had 1 blood clotting death as a result of the vaccine, the same amount of deaths from this "Delta" strain, where is the logic in pushing this down our throats? And there is no public debate or discourse about anything regarding this.

                          Our politicians have zero backbone here and the health advice is far too cautious it seems, it is always going to be I guess. I know that is what led to Australia going through the first wave more efficiently than anyone else around the world, but enough is enough and the fear and unwillingness to take some even small calculated risks to get back to normality is driving me nuts.

                          And finally, the audacity of this Fauci guy who whenever he gets on Australian television condescendingly talks down to us like he has all the answers. I think he really needs to reconsider why he is so smug when America has had a horrible time dealing with the disease, and he personally has question mark after question mark surrounding his conduct.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Hadez View Post

                            So you do not think the Spike Protein is dangerous? Why exactly do you think Covid19 is causing the Pandemic?

                            Again tell me a science source you trust and I am sure I can find something there about the Spike Protein and how is wrecking havoc on people in the Pandemic.
                            Well, no. I do not think the Spike Protein from my COVID vaccine is dangerous. I think you, among many others are missing the point on spike proteins. Take that back, I haven't read much into this thread recently for my sanity, so I'm unclear on what your stance or education on the matter is.

                            To answer your other question bluntly - COVID caused/causing a pandemic because people were (are) stupid. But that is a different (and old) topic...

                            Back to the spike protein:

                            Spike proteins from COVID-19 vaccination (the shot) behave differently than the spike proteins from natural COVID-19 infections (the virus).


                            Here is a nice reputable source to help break down the differences:

                            https://health-desk.org/articles/wha...id-19-vaccines

                            The spike proteins produced in the body from COVID-19 vaccination are widely considered safe, whether from mRNA vaccines (ex. Moderna, Pfizer) or viral vector vaccines (ex. AstraZeneca, Johnson & Johnson). These spike proteins from COVID-19 vaccination play an important role in training the immune system to protect the body from COVID-19.

                            False claims about the toxicity of spike proteins from COVID-19 vaccination often misinterpret studies, and fail to take into account how spike proteins from COVID-19 vaccination behave differently than the spike proteins from natural COVID-19 infection.

                            Vaccines go through very rigorous standards set by the U.S. FDA to meet safety and efficacy criteria. Thousands of people underwent clinical trials over several months to understand if there were any side effects or risks associated with the vaccines. The vaccines are still being monitored for any safety concerns or patterns being seen that can risk human well-being.

                            So far, there is no scientific evidence available that suggests that spike proteins created in our bodies from the COVID-19 vaccines are toxic or damaging our organs. COVID-19 vaccines are relatively new and long-term side effects are yet to be known. However, the vaccines have met the safety standards of many government and international safety agencies.

                            Several systems help us monitor vaccine safety. In the United States these include the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS), The Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD), the Post-License Rapid Immunization Safety Monitoring (PRISM), and the Clinical Immunization Safety Assessment Project (CISA). These systems are used by scientists to monitor side effects and any other patterns of risks from vaccines.

                            The COVID-19 vaccine has been administered to 135 million people in the United States. As expected with any vaccine, some fully vaccinated people still got sick, hospitalized, and/or died. These "breakthrough cases" are a very small percentage of those vaccinated (<0.001%) and are being studied to detect any relevant patterns.

                            So far no scientific evidence is available that gives credence to claims that spike proteins created from vaccines travel in our bloodstreams. Research shows that spike proteins stay stuck to the surface of the cells around the vaccine's injection site. They are not known to wander around to other parts of the body.

                            A very tiny dose of the vaccine does make it to the bloodstream (about 1%), but as soon as it gets to the liver, the enzymes there destroy it completely. The U.S. CDC refers to the spike protein made from the vaccine as “harmless.”


                            Context and background

                            Vaccine development, approval, and manufacturing involve rigorous processes, first among which is safety. Only if a vaccine is considered safe and effective, and the benefits outweigh the risks, is a vaccine authorized for use. Several scientists and experts at regulatory agencies like the FDA study vaccine data, and come to conclusions on vaccine safety and efficacy before deciding whether it's safe for the public to use.


                            Resources
                            1. mRNA Vaccines (U.S. CDC)
                            2. Spike Protein (Science Direct)
                            3. Explainer: What is a spike protein? (Science News for students)
                            4. Spike Protein/ S Protein (SinoBiological)
                            5. Structure, Function, and Antigenicity of the SARS-CoV-2 Spike Glycoprotein (Cell)
                            6. Development and Licensure of Vaccines to Prevent COVID-19 - Guidance for Industry (US FDA)
                            7. Spike Protein Behavior (Science Translational Medicine)
                            8. Possibility of COVID-19 Illness After Vaccination (U.S. CDC)
                            9. COVID-19 Breakthrough Case Investigations and Reporting (U.S. CDC)
                            10. Ensuring the Safety of Vaccines in the United States (U.S. CDC)
                            11. Ensuring the Safety of Vaccines in the United States (US FDA)
                            12. Vaccine Safety Monitoring (US CDC)
                            13. Vaccine Safety Basics (WHO)
                            Another good and interesting read from this medicinal chemist on the behavior of spike protein:

                            https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipelin...pike-protein-b

                            I’ve been getting a lot of questions in the last few days about several Spike-protein-related (and vaccine-related) topics, so I thought this would be a good time to go into them. There’s been a recent report about the vascular effects of the Spike protein alone (not coronavirus infection per se), and another presentation on similar effects in lung tissue. These are almost certainly looking at the same phenomena – the lungs are of course full of vascular tissue, and what’s being seen in both cases is very likely mediated by effects on the vascular endothelium.

                            In the first study, hamsters were injected with a pseudovirus was created that expressed surface Spike protein, while in the second the researchers just injected the protein directly into mice. The pseudovirus team went on to compare endothelial cells with different mutational forms of the ACE2 surface protein (S680D, with increased stability and S680L, with decreased stability). The response to the pseudovirus was quite different in these two, suggesting that it is indeed the binding of the Spike protein to ACE2 that’s a key part of this process. That happens as the coronvirus infects vascular tissue, of course, but this work shows that it’s not the whole process of viral infection that’s responsible for all the trouble: it starts with the initial binding event.

                            So I’ve been getting questions about what this means for vaccination: if we’re causing people to express Spike protein via mRNA or adenovirus vectors, are we damaging them just as if they’d been infected with coronavirus? Fortunately, the answer definitely seems to be “no” – in fact, the pseudovirus paper notes near the end that the antibody response generated by vaccination against the Spike protein will be beneficial in two ways, against infection and against the Spike-mediated endothelial damage as well. There are several reasons why the situation is different.

                            Consider what happens when you’re infected by the actual coronavirus. We know now that the huge majority of such infections are spread by inhalation of virus-laden droplets from other infected people, so the route of administration is via the nose and/or lungs, and the cells lining your airway are thus the first ones to get infected. The viral infection process leads at the end to lysis of the the host cell and subsequent dumping of a load of new viral particles – and these get dumped into the cellular neighborhood and into the bloodstream. They then have a clear shot at the endothelial cells lining the airway vasculature, which are the very focus of these two new papers.

                            Compare this, though, to what happens in vaccination. The injection is intramuscular, not into the bloodstream. That’s why a muscle like the deltoid is preferred, because it’s a good target of thicker muscle tissue without any easily hit veins or arteries at the site of injection. The big surface vein in that region is the cephalic vein, and it’s down along where the deltoid and pectoral muscles meet, not high up in the shoulder. In earlier animal model studies of mRNA vaccines, such administration was clearly preferred over a straight i.v. injection; the effects were much stronger. So the muscle cells around the injection are hit by the vaccine (whether mRNA-containing lipid nanoparticles or adenovirus vectors) while a good portion of the remaining dose is in the intercellular fluid and thus drains through the lymphatic system, not the bloodstream. That’s what you want, since the lymph nodes are a major site of immune response. The draining lymph nodes for the deltoid are going to be the deltoid/pectoral ones where those two muscles meet, and the larger axillary lymph nodes down in the armpit on that side.

                            Now we get to a key difference: when a cell gets the effect of an mRNA nanoparticle or an adenovirus vector, it of course starts to express the Spike protein. But instead of that being assembled into more infectious viral particles, as would happen in a real coronavirus infection, this protein gets moved up to the surface of the cell, where it stays. That’s where it’s presented to the immune system, as an abnormal intruding protein on a cell surface. The Spike protein is not released to wander freely through the bloodstream by itself, because it has a transmembrane anchor region that (as the name implies) leaves it stuck. That’s how it sits in the virus itself, and it does the same in human cells. See the discussion in this paper on the development of the Moderna vaccine, and the same applies to all the mRNA and vector vaccines that produce the Spike. You certainly don’t have the real-infection situation of Spike-covered viruses washing along everywhere through the circulation. The Spike protein produced by vaccination is not released in a way that it gets to encounter the ACE2 proteins on the surface of other human cells at all: it’s sitting on the surface of muscle and lymphatic cells up in your shoulder, not wandering through your lungs causing trouble.

                            Some of the vaccine dose is going to make it into the bloodstream, of course. But keep in mind, when the mRNA or adenovirus particles do hit cells outside of the liver or the site of injection, they’re still causing them to express Spike protein anchored on their surfaces, not dumping it into the circulation. Here’s the EMA briefing document for the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine – on pages 46 and 47, you can read the results of distribution studies. These were done two ways – by using an mRNA for luciferase (and thus looking at the resulting light emission from the various rodent regions!) and by using a radioactive label (which is a more sensitive technique). The great majority of the radioactivty stays in and around the injection site. In the first hours, there’s also some circulating in the plasma. But almost all of that ended up in the liver, and no other tissue was much over 1% of the total. That’s exactly what you’d expect, and what you see with drug dosing in general: your entire blood volume goes sluicing through the liver again and again, because that’s what the liver is for. But when things like this hit the hepatic tissue, they stay there and eventually get chewed up by various destructive enzymes (that’s also a big part of what the liver is for). It’s a one-way ticket.

                            So the reports of Spike protein trouble are interesting and important for coronavirus infection, but they do not mean that the vaccines themselves are going to cause similar problems. In fact, as mentioned above, the fact that these vaccines are aimed at the Spike means that they’re protective in more ways than we even realized.

                            Update: there’s another level of difference that I didn’t mention. In the Moderna, Pfizer/BioNTech, J&J, and Novavax vaccines, the Spike protein has some proline mutations introduced to try to hold it in its “prefusion” conformation, rather than the shape it adopts when it binds to ACE2. So that should cut down even more on the ability of the Spike protein produced by these vaccines to bind and produce the effects noted in the recent papers. That comes in particularly handy for the Novavax one, since it’s an injection of Spike protein itself, rather than a vaccine that has it produced inside the cells. Notably, the AstraZeneca/Oxford vaccine is producing wild-type Spike (although that’s still going to be membrane-anchored as discussed above!)
                            Hadez, there ya have it. You asked for it. Some data and supported science. Science is COOL. Now please, find me a scientific source about the Spike Protein FROM THE VACCINE and how is wrecking havoc on people in the Pandemic. And please, do not share that garbage of those two articles from Bridle's misjudged and misrepresented theories....

                            So again, I'll repeat my stance:

                            No - I do NOT think the Spike Protein from a vaccination is dangerous. In comparison TO the vaccine, the spike protein from the original virus IS dangerous (example: 2020 pandemic).

                            The Canadian viral immunologist Byram Bridle is wrong and has spread false theories and rumors which have been widely shared throughout the web and social media regarding Spike Proteins.
                            Last edited by Peerless; 07-14-2021, 03:35 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Peerless View Post

                              Well, no. I do not think the Spike Protein from my COVID vaccine is dangerous. I think you, among many others are missing the point on spike proteins. Take that back, I haven't read much into this thread recently for my sanity, so I'm unclear on what your stance or education on the matter is.

                              To answer your other question bluntly - COVID caused/causing a pandemic because people were (are) stupid. But that is a different (and old) topic...

                              Back to the spike protein:

                              Spike proteins from COVID-19 vaccination (the shot) behave differently than the spike proteins from natural COVID-19 infections (the virus).


                              Here is a nice reputable source to help break down the differences:

                              https://health-desk.org/articles/wha...id-19-vaccines

                              Another good and interesting read from this medicinal chemist on the behavior of spike protein:

                              https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipelin...pike-protein-b



                              Hadez, there ya have it. You asked for it. Some data and supported science. Science is COOL. Now please, find me a scientific source about the Spike Protein FROM THE VACCINE and how is wrecking havoc on people in the Pandemic. And please, do not share that garbage of those two articles from Bridle's misjudged and misrepresented theories....

                              So again, I'll repeat my stance:

                              No - I do NOT think the Spike Protein from a vaccination is dangerous. In comparison TO the vaccine, the spike protein from the original virus IS dangerous (example: 2020 pandemic).

                              The Canadian viral immunologist Byram Bridle is wrong and has spread false theories and rumors which have been widely shared throughout the web and social media regarding Spike Proteins.
                              I am going with your info. Because it is based on science and expertise. Plus the fact that I do not hear a single bleep about this protein situation. Had it been an issue, at least one of the folks we watch/read/ listen to would have mentioned it by now.

                              On the other hand when experts (Doctors) say that almost every single case they are dealing with now are unvaccinated folks, now there's a fact/stat/commentary/consideration for the masses to grasp.

                              Prior to the vaccines, we were in a precarious situation. Trying our best to make rules that would protect us, keep things going, and reduce the workload and resources of our healthcare folks and system. It was nowhere near perfect, and it was handled much different depending on where you lived. But the vaccines came along not a moment too soon, and have been a saviour for so many of us. And now we see amazing stats, as a result. The virus and the variant(s) are having difficulty penetrating those who have been vaccinated. But the variant is thriving on unvaccinated people, and younger than before. And once again, the medical system/folks are having to help them.

                              Where I live, vaccination rates are pretty good, and now we are being allowed to live more freely. The deductions to be made are quite simple if you ask me. Vaccinate and you will be fine, in almost every case. Sure there exceptions to everything, including meds. But my goodness, lets not stir up some anti vaccine justification, with so little evidence in support thereof. And as I alluded to earlier, lets not give folks like that more reason to abstain.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
                                I am confused when it comes to the "Delta" strain/variant of the disease. Here in Australia, if you read my last long-ranting post about lockdowns, it has extended due to roughly 80-100 community cases being evident per day. We will remain in lockdown and the government has the guilt-tripping ads coming in hot and heavy, they are loving their power over us.

                                The news cycle is driving home how much danger we are in this time around because of this variant, but what confuses me is, we have had 1 death as a result of it. The news keeps saying how important these lockdowns are for our future as we are in a more "deadly" situation now than at the start of the pandemic, but the results don't indicate that here.

                                What is annoying me is, we keep being told these things, and I am in no way anti-vaccine as I have made clear, but in Australia I believe we have had 1 blood clotting death as a result of the vaccine, the same amount of deaths from this "Delta" strain, where is the logic in pushing this down our throats? And there is no public debate or discourse about anything regarding this.

                                Our politicians have zero backbone here and the health advice is far too cautious it seems, it is always going to be I guess. I know that is what led to Australia going through the first wave more efficiently than anyone else around the world, but enough is enough and the fear and unwillingness to take some even small calculated risks to get back to normality is driving me nuts.

                                And finally, the audacity of this Fauci guy who whenever he gets on Australian television condescendingly talks down to us like he has all the answers. I think he really needs to reconsider why he is so smug when America has had a horrible time dealing with the disease, and he personally has question mark after question mark surrounding his conduct.
                                We get the same type of news in Southern California about the Delta. Pretty much every hour the news cycle talks about the Delta variant and in another news piece close to it will talk about how the people dying and going to the hospital are not vaccinated. I think it is a way to trying to encourage people to get the vaccine. Not sure if it will change much at this point.

                                As for Fauci...surprised anyone listening to him after his e-mails came out. Once he said "questioning Fauci was like questioning Science" I pretty much stopped giving him any benefit of the doubt.
                                Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

                                Comment

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