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  • Originally posted by CanDB View Post


    Prior to the vaccines, we were in a precarious situation. Trying our best to make rules that would protect us, keep things going, and reduce the workload and resources of our healthcare folks and system. It was nowhere near perfect, and it was handled much different depending on where you lived. But the vaccines came along not a moment too soon, and have been a saviour for so many of us. And now we see amazing stats, as a result. The virus and the variant(s) are having difficulty penetrating those who have been vaccinated. But the variant is thriving on unvaccinated people, and younger than before. And once again, the medical system/folks are having to help them.

    Non-profit doctors have been suggesting life saving treatment since Oct 2020. They went to the Senate with it on Dec 8 2020. How many people died between those times and the time people had access to the vaccine? How many times have I seen people on this forum say we should be doing whatever it takes to save lifes?

    Meanwhile families had to go to court to get hospitals to use the treatment.

    https://covidcalltohumanity.org/2021/03/31/judge-orders-hospital-to-use-ivermectin-covid-patient-80-year-old-woman-recovers/
    Last edited by Hadez; 07-14-2021, 06:57 PM.
    Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Hadez View Post

      We get the same type of news in Southern California about the Delta. Pretty much every hour the news cycle talks about the Delta variant and in another news piece close to it will talk about how the people dying and going to the hospital are not vaccinated. I think it is a way to trying to encourage people to get the vaccine. Not sure if it will change much at this point.

      As for Fauci...surprised anyone listening to him after his e-mails came out. Once he said "questioning Fauci was like questioning Science" I pretty much stopped giving him any benefit of the doubt.
      Easy fix - turn off the TV. Deactivate your social media platforms.

      And as for the Fauci comment, let's actually review the quote in context:

      A lot of what you’re seeing as attacks on me, quite frankly, are attacks on science, because all of the things that I have spoken about, consistently from the very beginning, have been fundamentally based on science,” the nation’s top infectious disease expert said before rebutting the attacks on prior remarks on how the coronavirus originated and the importance of wearing masks to prevent transmission. “If you go through each and every one of them, you can explain and debunk it immediately,” Fauci said. “I mean, every single one.
      I don't know why you are trying to make Fauci sound like some sort of egotistical "I am the science" posturing / flexing figure.

      I get it... I get it.. People are still angry from March 2020 when Fauci appeared on ABC where he told people there’s no reason to be wearing a masks. A time during the COVID pandemic that we were all still learning about the actual virus.

      Unfortunately, the same people are the ones who don't understand or care for science, and are literally blinded and could care less by the fact that science is a continuous process - a continuous study of previous data and new data. Trial and error. Science changes as more data is acquired - ie Masks DO help, social distancing does help, vaccinations help.

      There was a time when nearly everyone would trust the science even if they couldn't understand it. What's changed is that people now have the confidence to say the science is wrong without even trying to understand it, fueled by the unwillingness of scientists to be as confident as religious figures, politicians or their critics, occasional failures of science, a growing mistrust of authority figures generally because of their lies and failings, and the rise of public forums where those who wish to promote discord, distrust and absolute garbage have free rein.

      But holy crap, why are we still even TALKING about Fauci? Ridiculous.
      Last edited by Peerless; 07-15-2021, 07:07 AM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Peerless View Post

        Easy fix - turn off the TV. Deactivate your social media platforms.

        And as for the Fauci comment, let's actually review the quote in context:



        I don't know why you are trying to make Fauci sound like some sort of egotistical "I am the science" posturing / flexing figure.

        I get it... I get it.. People are still angry from March 2020 when Fauci appeared on ABC where he told people there’s no reason to be wearing a masks. A time during the COVID pandemic that we were all still learning about the actual virus.

        Unfortunately, the same people are the ones who don't understand or care for science, and are literally blinded and could care less by the fact that science is a continuous process - a continuous study of previous data and new data. Trial and error. Science changes as more data is acquired - ie Masks DO help, social distancing does help, vaccinations help.

        There was a time when nearly everyone would trust the science even if they couldn't understand it. What's changed is that people now have the confidence to say the science is wrong without even trying to understand it, fueled by the unwillingness of scientists to be as confident as religious figures, politicians or their critics, occasional failures of science, a growing mistrust of authority figures generally because of their lies and failings, and the rise of public forums where those who wish to promote discord, distrust and absolute garbage have free rein.

        But holy crap, why are we still even TALKING about Fauci? Ridiculous.
        Like u say Brent, if you don't want to know about the incredibly dangerous variant, look the other way. But anyone who is not interested must be living in some sort of dream world, as in we've had enough pandemic talk. Time to talk about something else. I don't think it's wise. We are not over this thing yet, and though there are positive signs, take your medicine, listen to the experts and balance life with whatever is going on around you. I sense there will be a 4th wave, even though it may be smaller, once Delta has its way with all those unvaccinated people. But there are ways around it:
        1) Keep tuned into the science/medical experts (daily)
        2) Think open minded about what you don't understand...the lives of yourself and people you care about may be compromised in future
        3) Take your meds!!! 2 of them.

        As for your view on Fauci...count me in. The critics will never stop talking about the masks in the early stage of covid, and ironically those are the same people who probably wouldn't have worn them that early had he recommended it. But at that early stage, many experts were incorrect about masks. It's called learning curve. This is a new dynamic on this planet, so you don't just assume masks are required. My goodness, most of us had never worn a mask for health purposes before, and it took time to get to that stage, even with recommendations.

        But the anti science folks have to always have any type of reason to denounce the profession. Seriously, since when did Science do us so much wrong??? I have a theory, it might have begun with a group of lousy science students.... Heck, the earth is flat (ask Branson and every other space traveler), climate change is a hoax (don't ask the fossil fuel producers), covid is not only dangerous but could be a warning of what is to come (ask the former President who required very expensive medical support). Bottom line, trust science. Those who don't buy it are typically trying to sell something, and the dang truth gets in the way.

        Back to Fauci....I listen to him to this day, knowing I will get the correct version about 99% of the time. He is human. Pandemics of this nature are extremely hard to understand, and yes, solve (take your meds!!). And the really hard part, the part that many can't quite grasp, is that, not only is it extremely hard to deal with a new pandemic - one that has killed about 4 million already, and may have caused unimaginable long term medical problems - but it is terribly challenging being one of the key voices thru the process. The one who has to interpret and relay information to the masses, as they look for any reason to dislike what you say, or not trust what you say. And then they pounce on anything you might have got wrong, or even partially wrong. That's pathetic stuff.

        Comment


        • In the same breath, I find online for as much as you might say "they wont let go of ...", the man has almost a fanboy like following as well. As I have mentioned a bunch of times, I have no skin the game in terms of political allegiance in the US, I am Australian, but Fauci has almost became a ping pong ball in the game of politics where one side denounces everything, and the other as I said fanboys him, that's what it looks like from the outside looking in. Does the man deserve all the critique levelled at him, probably not, but does he need to be held accountable for mistakes like every other high paid figure in a key decision making role ? Of course his actions need to be evaluated.

          I think people who are in his full support would say something like, no, we are on the side of science. And yes, as you mention Can, science is ever evolving, and the science will always call on that when a change emerges, that is 100% fair. But when the advice is dished out and the science reported on intially, whether by a third party, or from the primary source, it is always spoken on with such certainty, until those changes do emerge, and then all of sudden when past quotes, comments, and actions are called into question, again rightfully so, the science is evolving line is spoken. So what has science ever done to us that is so wrong ? I think maybe speaking in certainty on uncertain topics, then when changes emerge falling back to a position of this is how science works, it's evolving and we cannot be held accountable for past remarks due to this process, that is what calls individuals and the process into question, and rightfully so.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
            In the same breath, I find online for as much as you might say "they wont let go of ...", the man has almost a fanboy like following as well. As I have mentioned a bunch of times, I have no skin the game in terms of political allegiance in the US, I am Australian, but Fauci has almost became a ping pong ball in the game of politics where one side denounces everything, and the other as I said fanboys him, that's what it looks like from the outside looking in. Does the man deserve all the critique levelled at him, probably not, but does he need to be held accountable for mistakes like every other high paid figure in a key decision making role ? Of course his actions need to be evaluated.

            I think people who are in his full support would say something like, no, we are on the side of science. And yes, as you mention Can, science is ever evolving, and the science will always call on that when a change emerges, that is 100% fair. But when the advice is dished out and the science reported on intially, whether by a third party, or from the primary source, it is always spoken on with such certainty, until those changes do emerge, and then all of sudden when past quotes, comments, and actions are called into question, again rightfully so, the science is evolving line is spoken. So what has science ever done to us that is so wrong ? I think maybe speaking in certainty on uncertain topics, then when changes emerge falling back to a position of this is how science works, it's evolving and we cannot be held accountable for past remarks due to this process, that is what calls individuals and the process into question, and rightfully so.
            If you want my honest opinion, for most of us this is not about politics. Not one bit. I am a Liberal, and Democrat if I was an American. But this is about my health and the health of my family and everyone I care about. And I care about people I do not even know, like the elderly, the compromised. And as such, I have grown up in a world of differing administrations in Canada, and The US, but if I was to start all over and never had a political affiliation...I would go Science any day over those who somehow see it as an obstruction to whatever cause they are supporting. I have had all kinds of "shots" in my life, all kinds of medicines, and definitely 2 shots of covid vaccination, and touch wood, no setbacks yet. I can not prove each med worked fully, or even partially, but I do trust most doctors, and the science behind the healthcare system, and beyond. I'm about 7 decades in and have ample evidence that science and the medical experts are typically the right way to go.

            But I have a concern about the climate deniers, those who do not believe in covid vaccinations, and so forth. And I have a serious issue with people who want to diminish the value of science. Because denial of science and fact give folks complete justification to make up whatever suits them. That's clear to me. I see evidence every single day. And I wait them out, because in time they are proven wrong, and then you never hear from them anymore, or they suddenly change their opinion.

            Science gives confidence. People like Fauci are doing the best they can with the info they have....and believe me, it's much better than what the deniers have to offer. Delta is proving that each and every day.

            BTW....good leadership is providing the best info and the best recommendations based on what you have at the moment. It gives folks confidence that leadership is on the case, using the best data available, and ready to offer new guidance as soon as conditions support. It is not 100% perfect, especially in a new pandemic situation, but it is there to reassure that some one/some group is spending every moment trying to provide the best analysis and recommendations. In such devastating times, it is going to be fluid, because you can not know what no one knows. But continued effort to discover, using science, math, engineering or whatever, and wise interpretation on an ongoing basis, will more likely get you to the promised land, most of the time. For those who want simple solutions based on simple assessment and yes, often little fact at all....well, good luck.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by CanDB View Post

              If you want my honest opinion, for most of us this is not about politics. Not one bit. I am a Liberal, and Democrat if I was an American. But this is about my health and the health of my family and everyone I care about. And I care about people I do not even know, like the elderly, the compromised. And as such, I have grown up in a world of differing administrations in Canada, and The US, but if I was to start all over and never had a political affiliation...I would go Science any day over those who somehow see it as an obstruction to whatever cause they are supporting. I have had all kinds of "shots" in my life, all kinds of medicines, and definitely 2 shots of covid vaccination, and touch wood, no setbacks yet. I can not prove each med worked fully, or even partially, but I do trust most doctors, and the science behind the healthcare system, and beyond. I'm about 7 decades in and have ample evidence that science and the medical experts are typically the right way to go.

              But I have a concern about the climate deniers, those who do not believe in covid vaccinations, and so forth. And I have a serious issue with people who want to diminish the value of science. Because denial of science and fact give folks complete justification to make up whatever suits them. That's clear to me. I see evidence every single day. And I wait them out, because in time they are proven wrong, and then you never hear from them anymore, or they suddenly change their opinion.

              Science gives confidence. People like Fauci are doing the best they can with the info they have....and believe me, it's much better than what the deniers have to offer. Delta is proving that each and every day.

              BTW....good leadership is providing the best info and the best recommendations based on what you have at the moment. It gives folks confidence that leadership is on the case, using the best data available, and ready to offer new guidance as soon as conditions support. It is not 100% perfect, especially in a new pandemic situation, but it is there to reassure that some one/some group is spending every moment trying to provide the best analysis and recommendations. In such devastating times, it is going to be fluid, because you can not know what no one knows. But continued effort to discover, using science, math, engineering or whatever, and wise interpretation on an ongoing basis, will more likely get you to the promised land, most of the time. For those who want simple solutions based on simple assessment and yes, often little fact at all....well, good luck.
              Completely fair post, I wasn't referring to anyone for the record, just an observation from the outside on what it looks like is most definitely happening. I think there is always also going to be extremes on everything, but having a healthy level of scepticism in an uncertain environment is also warranted, as is evaluations of past actions by the leaders on all issues, I don't think any fair and reasonable person could dispute that. Where would society be if decisions weren't questioned ? That could be a pretty dark place to be.

              Is this Delta strain more deadly according to the figures ? As I mentioned, what is confusing me in Australia is, we are being told that the reason we have been locked down is because the Delta strain is far more deadly, but we are having next to no deaths at all, when last year we had many many more. Is Australia too small of a sample size to make anything of that ? Maybe statistically as a % of people infected with the new strain, more have died and I am missing the point, but it seems to be quite an unquestioned narrative here which I think deserves to be questioned. Especially as I said when they lock us down because of it and negatively effect the lives of all. I don't think that is questioning science either, I just think if leaders want to play with the lives of people, they need to do a better job of informing people, as opposed to locking down and getting snappy at those who don't fully heel.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post

                Completely fair post, I wasn't referring to anyone for the record, just an observation from the outside on what it looks like is most definitely happening. I think there is always also going to be extremes on everything, but having a healthy level of scepticism in an uncertain environment is also warranted, as is evaluations of past actions by the leaders on all issues, I don't think any fair and reasonable person could dispute that. Where would society be if decisions weren't questioned ? That could be a pretty dark place to be.

                Is this Delta strain more deadly according to the figures ? As I mentioned, what is confusing me in Australia is, we are being told that the reason we have been locked down is because the Delta strain is far more deadly, but we are having next to no deaths at all, when last year we had many many more. Is Australia too small of a sample size to make anything of that ? Maybe statistically as a % of people infected with the new strain, more have died and I am missing the point, but it seems to be quite an unquestioned narrative here which I think deserves to be questioned. Especially as I said when they lock us down because of it and negatively effect the lives of all. I don't think that is questioning science either, I just think if leaders want to play with the lives of people, they need to do a better job of informing people, as opposed to locking down and getting snappy at those who don't fully heel.
                I do not know all the details but what I read/hear is that Delta is the most contagious form of covid yet, and unvaccinated people are most at risk.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
                  In the same breath, I find online for as much as you might say "they wont let go of ...", the man has almost a fanboy like following as well. As I have mentioned a bunch of times, I have no skin the game in terms of political allegiance in the US, I am Australian, but Fauci has almost became a ping pong ball in the game of politics where one side denounces everything, and the other as I said fanboys him, that's what it looks like from the outside looking in. Does the man deserve all the critique levelled at him, probably not, but does he need to be held accountable for mistakes like every other high paid figure in a key decision making role ? Of course his actions need to be evaluated.

                  I think people who are in his full support would say something like, no, we are on the side of science. And yes, as you mention Can, science is ever evolving, and the science will always call on that when a change emerges, that is 100% fair. But when the advice is dished out and the science reported on intially, whether by a third party, or from the primary source, it is always spoken on with such certainty, until those changes do emerge, and then all of sudden when past quotes, comments, and actions are called into question, again rightfully so, the science is evolving line is spoken. So what has science ever done to us that is so wrong ? I think maybe speaking in certainty on uncertain topics, then when changes emerge falling back to a position of this is how science works, it's evolving and we cannot be held accountable for past remarks due to this process, that is what calls individuals and the process into question, and rightfully so.
                  If anything has happened to these public officials, especially Fauci - he has become a fringe target of mostly the people who disagree with him, and our current administration.

                  Remember - this is a guy who has served his role as the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases since the mid 80's. He has served seven different presidents, all of different parties. He's had to lead the team against HIV/Aids, Ebola, Zikia, COVID, etc.

                  The whipping boy process all started back during the hydroxychloroquine days of the pandemic. Remember? "Experts" kept praising how the antimalarial drug would prevent and treat COVID, while reputable scientists and researchers found that it wasn't the answer to the virus. Add that, and the fact that Fauci also been on record multiple times to wear masks, socially distance, and be safe - while the 2x impeached former president wanted the "quick fix" hydroxychloroquine drug and to open up America back to it's usual state during a pandemic - OF COURSE Fauci became the #1 target.

                  Hey, whatever happened to that drug? I never hear of it anymore.... I wonder WHY???

                  It also didn't help that mainstream media and several journalists, especially as it pertains to the White House press corps, purposely tried to get Fauci to contradict the former administration during his many press briefings. As I wrote earlier - People are still angry from March 2020 when Fauci appeared on ABC where he told people there’s no reason to be wearing a masks. A time during the COVID pandemic that we were all still learning about the actual virus.

                  Right now in the United States people should not be walking around with masks … You should think of healthcare providers who are needing them and the people who are ill.
                  That quote from Fauci is a familiar echo to what many others argued at that time, including the U.S. Surgeon General, the World Health Organization, and The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Of course, the views on that statement from most organizations changed, as more information became available about the disease.

                  Literally - think of all of that. Here is a job that you've been doing for decades. You've been in this position for all of these years because you're good at what you do. You give your interventions and rationale based off of science and the data. You give newer interventions and measures based off of science and the newer research and data to help contain a pandemic, and someone who has no clue is telling you you're wrong, and to do the opposite. How ludicrous.

                  Literally, let's just crap on all of the scientists and researchers for being wrong because some people just can't or won't understand that recommendations change as understanding of situations changes. It's that simple. There are no 'fan boys' of Fauci - there are fan boys of science, and the process of it.

                  Last edited by Peerless; 07-16-2021, 06:56 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Peerless View Post

                    If anything has happened to these public officials, especially Fauci - he has become a fringe target of mostly the people who disagree with him, and our current administration.

                    Remember - this is a guy who has served his role as the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases since the mid 80's. He has served seven different presidents, all of different parties. He's had to lead the team against HIV/Aids, Ebola, Zikia, COVID, etc.

                    The whipping boy process all started back during the hydroxychloroquine days of the pandemic. Remember? "Experts" kept praising how the antimalarial drug would prevent and treat COVID, while reputable scientists and researchers found that it wasn't the answer to the virus. Add that, and the fact that Fauci also been on record multiple times to wear masks, socially distance, and be safe - while the 2x impeached former president wanted the "quick fix" hydroxychloroquine drug and to open up America back to it's usual state during a pandemic - OF COURSE Fauci became the #1 target.

                    Hey, whatever happened to that drug? I never hear of it anymore.... I wonder WHY???

                    It also didn't help that mainstream media and several journalists, especially as it pertains to the White House press corps, purposely tried to get Fauci to contradict the former administration during his many press briefings. As I wrote earlier - People are still angry from March 2020 when Fauci appeared on ABC where he told people there’s no reason to be wearing a masks. A time during the COVID pandemic that we were all still learning about the actual virus.


                    That quote from Fauci is a familiar echo to what many others argued at that time, including the U.S. Surgeon General, the World Health Organization, and The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Of course, the views on that statement from most organizations changed, as more information became available about the disease.

                    Literally - think of all of that. Here is a job that you've been doing for decades. You've been in this position for all of these years because you're good at what you do. You give your interventions and rationale based off of science and the data. You give newer interventions and measures based off of science and the newer research and data to help contain a pandemic, and someone who has no clue is telling you you're wrong, and to do the opposite. How ludicrous.

                    Literally, let's just crap on all of the scientists and researchers for being wrong because some people just can't or won't understand that recommendations change as understanding of situations changes. It's that simple. There are no 'fan boys' of Fauci - there are fan boys of science, and the process of it.
                    Well said as usual Brent.

                    It amazes me how perfect Fauci and the rest of the scientific world has to be to get the respect they deserve. It's not only unfair, given they are going with the very best info they have at every moment going forward (even while the virus re-engineers itself)...which is far, far, far better than anything else we have to go by, BUT it is dangerous to promote the so called imperfection, given how many people follow along as if there is real credibility associated with the "noisy" people. They are like nuisance mosquitoes, but in reality, they are much worse, because lives depend on accuracy in pandemic times. Unsubstantiated garbage should not be allowed air time, because unfortunately there are many who want to hear that message, for some strange reason. It justifies ridiculous, even dangerous behaviour. Sure, buy in if you must, but try not to drag in innocent bystanders that you truly care about, because you may be harming them, short term and long term. Yes, I heard about yet another study yesterday that emphasizes the likelihood of long term health issues because of covid-19 infection.

                    As you well know Brent, lets remove all signs of politics on this. They are irrelevant. When you go to your doctor or medical specialist, do you ask them what party they belong to when they provide an assessment of your situation? I sure hope it never comes down to that. Well I suppose it could, if your medical person has a reputation of sorts. But if it does revolve around one's partisanship, why not just make the medical assessment that suits you the best. Heck, how hard is it to manage serious illnesses and such?! Piece of cake, right?

                    That's the beauty of pure science, it does not care about politics....it cares about diligent attention to facts, solutions and giving us more knowledge one day to the next.
                    Last edited by CanDB; 07-16-2021, 09:38 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by CanDB View Post
                      That's the beauty of pure science, it does not care about politics....it cares about diligent attention to facts, solutions and giving us more knowledge one day to the next.
                      I like this comment. :thumb:

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by CanDB View Post

                        I do not know all the details but what I read/hear is that Delta is the most contagious form of covid yet, and unvaccinated people are most at risk.
                        So you are not sure on the details, but will constantly repeat the narrative that it is more dangerous, but have no idea if the statistics which I have seen you use so often actually support this new stance you have adopted ? What does it take for you to jump on board then ? From looking around it appears that the scientific community is actually acknowledging that it is less deadly but more contagious. The reason used appears to be that it is because the Delta strain is infecting younger people, and they are better equipped to handle it, therefore not as deadly. I understand health advice will always fall to the side of caution, it should, but again, you don't know if it isn't as deadly, it appears the statistics indicate it isn't, yet the narrative is being pushed hard and repeated even in here by you, is beware the Delta, it is worse. I think the discussion around this when your locking people down for extended periods, in reference to Australia specifically, I don't know if the US is still locking communities down, deserves to happen.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Peerless View Post

                          If anything has happened to these public officials, especially Fauci - he has become a fringe target of mostly the people who disagree with him, and our current administration.

                          Remember - this is a guy who has served his role as the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases since the mid 80's. He has served seven different presidents, all of different parties. He's had to lead the team against HIV/Aids, Ebola, Zikia, COVID, etc.

                          The whipping boy process all started back during the hydroxychloroquine days of the pandemic. Remember? "Experts" kept praising how the antimalarial drug would prevent and treat COVID, while reputable scientists and researchers found that it wasn't the answer to the virus. Add that, and the fact that Fauci also been on record multiple times to wear masks, socially distance, and be safe - while the 2x impeached former president wanted the "quick fix" hydroxychloroquine drug and to open up America back to it's usual state during a pandemic - OF COURSE Fauci became the #1 target.

                          Hey, whatever happened to that drug? I never hear of it anymore.... I wonder WHY???

                          It also didn't help that mainstream media and several journalists, especially as it pertains to the White House press corps, purposely tried to get Fauci to contradict the former administration during his many press briefings. As I wrote earlier - People are still angry from March 2020 when Fauci appeared on ABC where he told people there’s no reason to be wearing a masks. A time during the COVID pandemic that we were all still learning about the actual virus.


                          That quote from Fauci is a familiar echo to what many others argued at that time, including the U.S. Surgeon General, the World Health Organization, and The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Of course, the views on that statement from most organizations changed, as more information became available about the disease.

                          Literally - think of all of that. Here is a job that you've been doing for decades. You've been in this position for all of these years because you're good at what you do. You give your interventions and rationale based off of science and the data. You give newer interventions and measures based off of science and the newer research and data to help contain a pandemic, and someone who has no clue is telling you you're wrong, and to do the opposite. How ludicrous.

                          Literally, let's just crap on all of the scientists and researchers for being wrong because some people just can't or won't understand that recommendations change as understanding of situations changes. It's that simple. There are no 'fan boys' of Fauci - there are fan boys of science, and the process of it.
                          The health advice in Australia at this time last year was the same, we completely stopped covid without masks, but the harsh lockdowns were followed and we were praised highly around the world for our handling of the outbreak. Obviously, health advice will change and update, and picking on that one aspect is quite petty and pathetic, no doubt. But I think in acknowledging that also, do you think someone in such a high-paid position, who has such influence and such a voice should not have his actions and remarks evaluated and assessed ? If not, and no questions can be asked reasonably, then I think taking that stance is just as counterproductive as the ones on the other side you and Can are rightfully denouncing.

                          I also think you are very far off on saying that Fauci has not become a fanboy for some out there, he can do no wrong in some people's eyes to the point where they would ignore certain actions just because, well, science, don't question anything, science. Honestly, even being a "fab boy for science" is a pretty strange thing to be, or I guess even say, come on. We will acknowledge when science gets it wrong as it is part of the process in retrospect, I agree that is fair, but at the drop of each announcement will take anything we are told as concrete information and the possibility of being any different or having some reasonable questions to ask is a conspiracy ? Please. If anything the last year has shown us in my opinion, no one who is so set on either side of any argument is going to be right 100% of the time, and people need to be more willing to hear people out either in the approach to educate, or debate.

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                          • Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post

                            So you are not sure on the details, but will constantly repeat the narrative that it is more dangerous, but have no idea if the statistics which I have seen you use so often actually support this new stance you have adopted ? What does it take for you to jump on board then ? From looking around it appears that the scientific community is actually acknowledging that it is less deadly but more contagious. The reason used appears to be that it is because the Delta strain is infecting younger people, and they are better equipped to handle it, therefore not as deadly. I understand health advice will always fall to the side of caution, it should, but again, you don't know if it isn't as deadly, it appears the statistics indicate it isn't, yet the narrative is being pushed hard and repeated even in here by you, is beware the Delta, it is worse. I think the discussion around this when your locking people down for extended periods, in reference to Australia specifically, I don't know if the US is still locking communities down, deserves to happen.
                            Cmon dude, I can get all the details you want, but the facts are this variant is causing all kinds of grief for unvaccinated people. Like I mentioned before, when doctors are stating that almost every covid patient they are having to support is unvaccinated, what mathematics do you need? Seriously!! If they are requiring medical attention, going to ICU, or dying...it's a bad sign, and one that anyone can deduct. And interestingly as I drove home a couple of hours ago, I heard that some states with low vaccination rates are suddenly showing signs of increased vaccinations. Why??? I'll dig for the details, in case my word is not good enough for you.

                            It's almost funny that we are even debating this step along the way. It's the 2 + 2 = 4 debate that seems in jeopardy these fine days. Lets see, covid again increasing in various locations. Doctors verify that almost every patient is unvaccinated. Some are going to ICU, some are dying. Hmmm....if I posed this dilemma to a class of young kids, they would probably deduce what many can't quite grasp. 2 + 2 = take the vaccination if you can. Two of them in fact.

                            Hmmmmm, on second thought....here's the first article I pulled up:

                            Delta COVID-19 variant now dominant strain worldwide; U.S. deaths surge | CTV News

                            Maybe it's not the best, I don't know. I'll add more if you like, especially if you think it's biased. I just browsed a little and the stats sound familiar.

                            One more thought.....we want restrictions removed as much as possible. It's happening here, in varying stages. Many of us want the Canada/US border open....but only for the unvaccinated. We want to be together again. But only if it makes sense. Those who complain that we are not moving fast enough need to encourage others to take their medicine, because that's been clearly the difference in controlling the virus impact, even the variant. But hey, the choice is there for each of us who are able to be vaccinated. If you are ok with keeping things restricted that's your call. But everyone I know is excited to have gotten their vaccinations, have or soon to receive a card to verify, and are noticeably more comfortable when we bump into each other. Folks in the condo, who were very cautious, are not only vaccinated but act like this thing is almost over. Why is that? It's called confidence in the science. And close monitoring of the stats, which are visibly trending to the positive, at least in areas that impact me and my family/friends. Confidence of this nature is what took many, many months to restore. It came with effort, discomfort, fear, concern and even sadly, real pain. When a large group of cautious, in this case, more elderly types, are feeling much better, it's because they are basing things on facts.....which has served them well for most of their long lives.
                            Last edited by CanDB; 07-16-2021, 01:48 PM.

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                            • Originally posted by CanDB View Post

                              Cmon dude, I can get all the details you want, but the facts are this variant is causing all kinds of grief for unvaccinated people. Like I mentioned before, when doctors are stating that almost every covid patient they are having to support is unvaccinated, what mathematics do you need? Seriously!! If they are requiring medical attention, going to ICU, or dying...it's a bad sign, and one that anyone can deduct. And interestingly as I drove home a couple of hours ago, I heard that some states with low vaccination rates are suddenly showing signs of increased vaccinations. Why??? I'll dig for the details, in case my word is not good enough for you.

                              It's almost funny that we are even debating this step along the way. It's the 2 + 2 = 4 debate that seems in jeopardy these fine days. Lets see, covid again increasing in various locations. Doctors verify that almost every patient is unvaccinated. Some are going to ICU, some are dying. Hmmm....if I posed this dilemma to a class of young kids, they would probably deduce what many can't quite grasp. 2 + 2 = take the vaccination if you can. Two of them in fact.

                              Hmmmmm, on second thought....here's the first article I pulled up:

                              Delta COVID-19 variant now dominant strain worldwide; U.S. deaths surge | CTV News

                              Maybe it's not the best, I don't know. I'll add more if you like, especially if you think it's biased. I just browsed a little and the stats sound familiar.
                              All I am saying is if you are going to repeat something, you have to have some deeper understanding than, "it's what I hear". Look, I don't even know, I asked you because I thought you would be all over it, and it's something I have been genuinely wondering based on what is going on right now in Australia. I could be wrong, but only had a quick browse and seen some interesting things in relation to the death rate around the Delta strain being not as high, and the scientific community is taking positives from that and the data they have. I just wasn't sure why our leaders here then have taken the steps they have, that's all, and I asked the question as you were very much involved in repeating a similar sentiment.

                              In regards to your other comments, you tend to do this, you will go into other areas of discussion not being talked about in your attempt to posture in the conversation. My gripe, my question, my point was around if the Delta strain is more deadly, that's it. I am not talking about vaccines, it is not a surprise that people who have not been vaccinated are more likely to get the disease in which they are not vaccinated for, obviously. That is not what I asked you either, that is not what I responded to when you said "it's what you heard", I have not mentioned the vaccinated at all in what I have said, I was genuinely asking if it is more deadly as I thought you would know based on your comments.

                              Also, that article presents nothing in relation to what I asked or what I was talking about. I also don't know why anyone would call that biased either, it is an article about an increase in people getting vaccinated in areas with previously lower vaccination rates, and more hospital presentations are occurring. Australia since this current lockdown started has seen the same thing when it comes to an increase in people going out to get vaccinated, but again, I asked is it actually more deadly, it doesn't appear the data is there yet to demonstrate that, and your tangent is off-base when responding to what I said.

                              In relation to your last point, I am over restrictions. Lockdowns are not the way forward. The initial response here in Australia was widely acknowledged as being right at the time and the blueprint for handling the Covid outbreak, as was Singapore and New Zealand. However, one year on, after returning to normality really quickly last year, we are in the exact same place we were. I think as a whole people this time around are over it, and I am too. People are fed up with being dictated too and that is fair. The other day I broke the covid rules to go for a run in the same bushland I go for a run in every single morning. I left the 10 KM area I am not allowed to leave, and I went running. It is one of the small things in my life I look forward to and haven't been able to do. At the end of my run, I bumped into one of my high school teachers who I was a little ratbag for, and treated pretty poorly. We had a chat for about half an hour as we walked, and the outside human interaction in nature was exactly what I needed.

                              I felt kind of emotional after it weirdly, people are social creatures, and someday soon we have to be a little more lenient in allowing activity in my opinion. I feel at this rate it is just going to pop back up, here, then there, then over there, and the answer cannot be restrictions set on society every time. It's a very contentious subject also, and I am not even sure how I feel about restricting activity for certain people because they have not got vaccinated, part of it just doesn't sit right with me. I need to think a little more on that point honestly.

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                              • Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
                                If anything the last year has shown us in my opinion, no one who is so set on either side of any argument is going to be right 100% of the time, and people need to be more willing to hear people out either in the approach to educate, or debate.
                                Oh believe me... review this entire thread. I've willingly listened to others approach to this pandemic. I've listened to broncomania posters, family, and the head of the governemnt. I've heard a LOT of things.

                                Everything from hospitals are fine - there's not a huge influx, the annual flu is more severe, the death numbers are false or inflated, the virus is "just going to go away", hydroxychloroquine is going to cure the world, masks are pointless, vaccines are coming "really soon" (March 2020),

                                Seriously, how can a person take someone or a source seriously when you hear things like that?

                                Yeah, no sorry. I'll retract my statement - if there's anything the last year has shown us in MY opinion, it's how in denial, blinded, and narrow minded a lot of people in this country are.

                                I'll trust the correct sources, the doctors and researchers who know what the hell is going on, the people who trust science - verses some internet warrior, or ill informed leader.

                                "Don't shoot the messenger" is the saying you hear throughout time.... Well, don't shoot Dr. Fauci, or the people who have worked to help prevent/treat COVID.
                                Last edited by Peerless; 07-16-2021, 08:19 PM.

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