Corona virus

[CanDB]

We are lucky to be moving ahead. Our rates for one dose and fully vaccinated are both ahead of the US, which is kind of special given we had a slower start due to supply. A number of our provinces are reducing restrictions, And now our PM states that fully vaccinated Americans can cross the border starting August 9th.

Moving forward...

[Hadez]

Wait wait wait - Your first and original question to me (in which you later on edited after I quoted and replied to you by the way...)



And I answered your question. There are different mechanisms of how a spike protein in a virus works, verses a spike protein in a vaccine. That WAS your question, was it not?

As for your question about data on the vaccine two years, five years, ten years down the line if it has any major side affects is irrational at the least. Of course I can't provide data on something that hasn't happened yet? That question is almost as baseless as someone foolishly saying something like "the virus is just going to go away" on its own.

So to answer your question (since you seemed to have a hard time initially replying to mine): I don't have an answer. But I do know from reading literature and research that besides everything about previous mRNA vaccines being safe, and side effects usually showing up quickly, there isn’t really any biologic plausibility for mRNA to do any damage. While the "long term effects" for an individual vaccine isn't able to be studied before roll out (duh), our understanding of vaccination history and immunology generally fills in those gaps. It's the short-term reactions that we're most concerned with.

To break it down even further:

1. Unlike other vaccines, there isn’t any Covid (killed/attenuated) in this vaccine. All you have is mRNA data, which are instructions to make a protein. In this case, this is the spike protein. Normally mRNA is made in the nucleus and goes out to the ribosomes where proteins are made, and then the mRNA is degraded. Here we are just bringing the mRNA to the ribosome from outside. mRNA doesn’t have the capability of entering the nucleus and making changes to the DNA, where there would be potential to do damage.
2. mRNA is super unstable and degrades really quickly (in a matter of hours). That’s why the Pfizer vaccine has to be held at such a low temperature, because otherwise the mRNA would degrade and be ineffective. That short time window + the lack of its ability to enter the nucleus really rules out any risk of significant side effects outside of allergic reactions.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ines/mrna.html

And I take offense to your last statement on how I'm not putting much effort into seeing both sides. Just because I'm a large advocate for interventions based on science, doesn't mean I'm not putting effort into YOUR side or YOUR beliefs. I have seen first hand what happens when you don't follow the scientific recommendations. I - believed in masks, social distancing, and taking the vaccine.

I have worked with many COVID + patients who were sedated/paralyzed with more tubes and lines coming out of them than you would ever imagine. I have seen people who have come in without being vaccinated and had decompensated to the point where they were BEGGING to breathe, as we rushed to shove a breathing tube down their throat to live. I have been yelled at by families of COVID victims that we didn't do enough, or cared enough when literally - we were out of options. Before vaccines were out - I was putting my health on the line for the people not following the recommending guidelines - in which I then put my wife and family at risk at home.

YOUR posts on this subject have made YOUR feelings clear on the issue. I have replied OFTEN to the side opposite of mine on during this pandemic; not not just with replies from my words I've written, but from factual data that I have repeatedly shared.... Data that somehow and someway gets ignored.

Don't tell me I'm not putting much effort into seeing both sides. I have read it and researched it through my spare time. I've listened to doctors, scientist, and researchers (on BOTH fences - everything from hydroxychloroquine being pushed as a COVID cure along with herd immunity solving all the issues). And through my profession, I have seen what COVID can do to a person - how it has literally killed someone.

To repeat what you quoted as my "Your first and original question"

So you do not think the Spike Protein is dangerous? Why exactly do you think Covid19 is causing the Pandemic?

Again tell me a science source you trust and I am sure I can find something there about the Spike Protein and how is wrecking havoc on people in the Pandemic.

YOU ARE WRONG

This was the first comment I made that you quoted.

I do not want to say anything anti vaccine but the spike protein is dangerous...if there is any one thing people should go in deep on it is researching the various things Covid19.

This still appears as you quoted. Btw I intentionally did not reply to you. I knew you would do this.

I then replied to ANOTHER poster...NOT YOU

Once again I am not going to say anything negative about the vaccines. There is plenty of information out there if one wants to do their own homework. LA area is reporting 99% of people going to hospitals and dying are not vaccinated. I am team Pfizer.


Beyond that are we trying to argue the spike protein in general is dangerous? Guess tell me a science source you trust and I will look and see what they say about it.

I then replied to ANOTHER poster...NOT YOU

So you do not think the Spike Protein is dangerous? Why exactly do you think Covid19 is causing the Pandemic?

Again tell me a science source you trust and I am sure I can find something there about the Spike Protein and how is wrecking havoc on people in the Pandemic.

Now I guess the only thing I wonder....were you intentionally trying to misrepresent what I was saying or was that an error on your part?


edit - I was going to hold back on this part but I want to say it. Let me know when you want to start accurately commenting on things.

[Hadez]

We are lucky to be moving ahead. Our rates for one dose and fully vaccinated are both ahead of the US, which is kind of special given we had a slower start due to supply. A number of our provinces are reducing restrictions, And now our PM states that fully vaccinated Americans can cross the border starting August 9th.

Moving forward...

Los Angeles County is going back to indoor mask mandate for everyone.

Local news channel (KTLA) said this morning if California was still using the color tier system two numbers being tracked then would put LA County in the Red Tier (2nd worst). I have not checked the numbers myself. Sometimes the news will focus on the total numbers and not look at numbers per population. It is more dramatic to focus on the big numbers.

Los Angeles has a fully vaccinated rate of 62% and 1 dose of 69.9%

I have herd multiple people who are not vaccinated question the effectiveness of the vaccines if that many people are vaccinated and Los Angeles needs to go back to mask mandates. I did repeat to them how effective the vaccine was against death and hospitalization. Even the less than 1% vaccinated people who die (approx 700 I herd) are apparently very old and of weak health per sources I trust.

[Peerless]

To repeat what you quoted as my "Your first and original question"



YOU ARE WRONG

This was the first comment I made that you quoted.



This still appears as you quoted. Btw I intentionally did not reply to you. I knew you would do this.

I then replied to ANOTHER poster...NOT YOU



I then replied to ANOTHER poster...NOT YOU



Now I guess the only thing I wonder....were you intentionally trying to misrepresent what I was saying or was that an error on your part?


edit - I was going to hold back on this part but I want to say it. Let me know when you want to start accurately commenting on things.

Larger text size AND bold? You're getting all triggered here cowboy. Step back, and take a deep breath. I'll help clarify.

First of all: I could care less if you quoted me, or CanDB.

Your original statement whether you are trying to avoid at being anti vaccine (even though you literally just wrote that in your first comment you were speaking against the vaccines) was about how dangerous the spike protein is.

Something tells me you didn't know the difference between a spike protein in a vaccine, verses a virus. Your general statement of the spike protein being "dangerous" was inconsistent and invalid, as you were only looking at the spike protein OF a virus. It was a pretty weak and trash comment that you used to stir the pot.

You then asked a question and gave a task of finding a scientific source on the spike protein. I took it upon myself to complete the task you asked, and gave an answer to the message board. This is an internet forum, is it not? Can I not chime in on a conversation? Whether the task was aimed at CanDB or myself, we both were in on the same conversation.

I actually provided you some clarity of how a spike protein in a vaccine works, verses a spike protein in a virus. I provided information on why the vaccine (with the SP's) are safe. I provided a scientific source of research, in which YOU asked for. I basically was CanDB, and gave the answer you were looking for.

You STILL seem that you don't want to acknowledge that, which is fine - because now I know that YOU know your first claim of the spike protein being dangerous was a poor comment due to (probable) incomplete knowledge... or was it?

Don't you see what you did? You took spike proteins - and you tried to make them out to be dangerous in all forms; False information is what you spewed. You should be ashamed.

But I can see how a statement in which you made - how it could cause panic and concern to somebody who blindly follows and listens to advice from "knowledgeable" internet folk without doing the dirty work and researching on their own. "Well if he said that spike proteins are dangerous and causing havoc, and that vaccines have them too, why would I want to take that... they are BAD for you!!"


As you said - now I guess the only thing I wonder... well the only thing I know, is that your original statement on spike proteins was a literal misrepresentation and false statement that hopefully you will acknowledge was an error on YOUR part - whether it was focused to me or CanDB, or some non member viewing this forum.

?

[CanDB]

Good for Fauci...standing up for himself yesterday, as he should, when confronted by an ill-advised "politician".

[Hadez]

Larger text size AND bold? You're getting all triggered here cowboy. Step back, and take a deep breath. I'll help clarify.

I was not triggered. I was trying to assist you to get back on the the path I was trying to follow.

You can not even follow the simple 2-3 sentences someone posts and represent the conversation accurately. What makes you think we should think you can follow the complex concepts of the science of Covid19?

You seem to think my third statement was my first statement so not sure how to talk apples to apples with someone who can not even follow a conversation on a forum that is easy to go back and reference....but to repeat what I think you read before on my actual first statement

First I apologize for not wording my first comment better that seemed to trigger you.

I am not going to respond to you until you start putting effort into having a good faith conversation without getting emotional and making assumptions. You been doing to me repeatedly in this topic imo.

[Hadez]

Good for Fauci...standing up for himself yesterday, as he should, when confronted by an ill-advised "politician".

I did not think we were going to talk about what happens in Congress. Since we are...did you see the people laying out the time lines of Fauci e-mails in Congress hearing? It is pretty obvious he has been lying about funding Gain of Function when looking at his emails as well as lying about there being no evidence to the lab leak after looking at his e-mails.

I am not a fan of the "politician" you talking about but on the where there is smoke there is fire concept you seem to want to follow....there is not only smoke around Fauci the emails show fire.

The guy doing the e-mail time lines...he has impressed me with his work on Covid19.

[Peerless]

I was not triggered. I was trying to assist you to get back on the the path I was trying to follow.

You can not even follow the simple 2-3 sentences someone posts and represent the conversation accurately. What makes you think we should think you can follow the complex concepts of the science of Covid19?

You seem to think my third statement was my first statement so not sure how to talk apples to apples with someone who can not even follow a conversation on a forum that is easy to go back and reference....but to repeat what I think you read before on my actual first statement


I am not going to respond to you until you start putting effort into having a good faith conversation without getting emotional and making assumptions. You been doing to me repeatedly in this topic imo.

Hadez, post #2777

I do not want to say anything anti vaccine but the spike protein is dangerous...if there is any one thing people should go in deep on it is researching the various things Covid19.

Peerless, post #2778

Do you have any source with data - specifically scientific data to support this?

Hadez, post #2780 (in replying to CanDB who was basically asking the same question I was)

Once again I am not going to say anything negative about the vaccines. There is plenty of information out there if one wants to do their own homework. LA area is reporting 99% of people going to hospitals and dying are not vaccinated. I am team Pfizer.

Beyond that are we trying to argue the spike protein in general is dangerous? Guess tell me a science source you trust and I will look and see what they say about it.

CanDB, post #2781 (shortened version)

Peerless and I are asking the same question. What source do you have? Because on the surface it's comments like that which give non vaccinated folks more ammunition to not get vaccinated, even without evidence.

Hadez, post #2782 (replying to CanDB)

So you do not think the Spike Protein is dangerous? Why exactly do you think Covid19 is causing the Pandemic?

Again tell me a science source you trust and I am sure I can find something there about the Spike Protein and how is wrecking havoc on people in the Pandemic.

Peerless, post #2788 (replying to Hadez previous two posts)

False claims about the toxicity of spike proteins from COVID-19 vaccination often misinterpret studies, and fail to take into account how spike proteins from COVID-19 vaccination behave differently than the spike proteins from natural COVID-19 infection.

Resource: https://health-desk.org/articles/wha...id-19-vaccines



There is your timeline, that you still can't seem to grasp. And instead of acknowledging that research and study on spike proteins, you went on another tangent in post #2811 asking an irrational question for evidence on if the COVID vaccine is safe in two, three, or ten years down the line.

--------

So instead of calling me out for not following a simple 2-3 sentences, and claiming that I'm making assumptions - I think you're the one who needs to perform a review - without emotions and without a single approach perspective.

You asked a question, gave a task, and I responded.

If you seriously still can't figure that out, I can understand how confused, misguided, and lost you are in the grand scheme of things relating to this pandemic... And Hadez, that is a comment I'm making without emotion OR assumption.


This is my FINAL reply to you on the subject of spike proteins. I have wasted enough time trying to educate you while constantly trying to re-focus your attention to the subject.

[CanDB]

I did not think we were going to talk about what happens in Congress. Since we are...did you see the people laying out the time lines of Fauci e-mails in Congress hearing? It is pretty obvious he has been lying about funding Gain of Function when looking at his emails as well as lying about there being no evidence to the lab leak after looking at his e-mails.

I am not a fan of the "politician" you talking about but on the where there is smoke there is fire concept you seem to want to follow....there is not only smoke around Fauci the emails show fire.

The guy doing the e-mail time lines...he has impressed me with his work on Covid19.

I am not talking about politics, other than Fauci, the covid guru, standing up for himself. I could care less about the guy asking the questions. I will not comment on him because this isn't about him. This is about a foolish attempt to dismiss Fauci's important role. Those who listened to him about getting vaccinated were on the right side of history. Those who did not are using up a lot of medical resources.

[Hadez]

I am not talking about politics, other than Fauci, the covid guru, standing up for himself. I could care less about the guy asking the questions. I will not comment on him because this isn't about him. This is about a foolish attempt to dismiss Fauci's important role. Those who listened to him about getting vaccinated were on the right side of history. Those who did not are using up a lot of medical resources.

Ivermectin been saving lives for half a year before I was able to get the vaccine. How many people died from Oct 2020 to May 2021?

Fauci and the NIH recommended against using it until after a Senate hearing in Dec 8 and multiple court rulings forcing medical people to use the treatment. Even now the NIH is just neutral on the treatment.

If Fauci was a hero he would have been open minded about multiple things he was trying to steer people down one single path.

[CanDB]

Ivermectin been saving lives for half a year before I was able to get the vaccine. How many people died from Oct 2020 to May 2021?

Fauci and the NIH recommended against using it until after a Senate hearing in Dec 8 and multiple court rulings forcing medical people to use the treatment. Even now the NIH is just neutral on the treatment.

If Fauci was a hero he would have been open minded about multiple things he was trying to steer people down one single path.

I disagree with you on Fauci. Like I have disagreed with you on various discussions in this thread. The pandemic was a horrific mystery presented to us, and for the first major portion, it was about adapting to the new world, and practicing safe measures. Once the vaccines arrived, the game changed. You take them unless you can not, and you get to move on, with some confidence.

Mistakes were made, folks disobeyed, and so forth. But as far as I am concerned, the first major stage was all about respectfulness to one another, and being supportive of those in leadership roles who had science and medical expertise, and all those who sacrificed for us, including the front liners. This post vaccine stage is much simpler. Take it twice.

[Peerless]

I am not talking about politics, other than Fauci, the covid guru, standing up for himself. I could care less about the guy asking the questions. I will not comment on him because this isn't about him. This is about a foolish attempt to dismiss Fauci's important role. Those who listened to him about getting vaccinated were on the right side of history. Those who did not are using up a lot of medical resources.

What a disaster. Let’s let some phony eye doctor who has zero experience working in infectious diseases have his five minutes of fame propagating lies when he doesn’t even understand the most basic science behind cell/viral biology.


"Non-practicing Ophthalmologist (who was certified by a board he created because the other board hates him) tries to explain viral pathogen research to the world's foremost expert in viral pathogens."

What's even more hilarious is this non-practicing Ophthalmologist is trying to make Fauci responsible for COVID. Literally, he said that Fauci was responsible for 4,000,000 deaths and will be held accountable.

[CanDB]

What a disaster. Let’s let some phony eye doctor who has zero experience working in infectious diseases have his five minutes of fame propagating lies when he doesn’t even understand the most basic science behind cell/viral biology.


"Non-practicing Ophthalmologist (who was certified by a board he created because the other board hates him) tries to explain viral pathogen research to the world's foremost expert in viral pathogens."

What's even more hilarious is this non-practicing Ophthalmologist is trying to make Fauci responsible for COVID. Literally, he said that Fauci was responsible for 4,000,000 deaths and will be held accountable.

I have nothing to add.....as The British often say, "brilliant".

[Hadez]

I know sometimes it is hard to see past the theatre that happens in Congress but what some people care about in those hearings is preventing the next Pandemic. The point is there is a possibility Covid19 was created and came from the lab in Wujan, China.

Money from the NIH ended up in the lab in Wujan China through a third party. Whatever the NIH wants to call the science pretty much everyone agrees the lab in Wujan was taking coronaviruses and infecting mice with human lung tissue. The purpose being to make the coronaviruses more infectious to humans and then be studied. I am not sure if there is anyone credible who disagrees with that.

This issue is some people want to call it Gain of Function. I have seen many other doctors and scientists call it Gain of Function. Fauci and the people who work for him in the NIH do not want to call it Gain of Function. To those wanting to prevent the next Pandemic it really does not matter what people want to call it. The point is there is a possibility Covid19 was created and came from the lab in Wujan.

Looking into what Josh Rogin from the Washington Post has to say about the NIH and Gain of Function Research funding will give some insight on why Fauci is refusing to call it Gain of Function. The NIH was supposed to stop funding Gain of Function research. There is supposed to be a higher level of scrutiny when the Gain of Function research funding was to be started up again. Anyone who has watched all of the testimony know there was very little scrutiny done to the lab in Wujan China.

I think there is more important questions to be asked but it seems for months there has been an argument about what to call the research. Once again to those wanting to see continuous improvement and prevent the next pandemic...it really does not matter what the research is called.

[Peerless]

Fauci chooses his words very carefully as he should under congress, and as he should as Paul is trying to get him to twist his words.

Fauci says there was no NIH funding for gain of function research in Wuhan. Which is correct. There was NIH funding in Wuhan, but it was for data and work on details of the bat coronaviruses. That research was for alleged 'gain of function research' in the US. Here's the study. You can see the Wuhan Institute of Virology listed on this gain of research study conducted in the US.

So Fauci is very carefully choosing his words, because the NIH did fund research very similar to 'gain of function research' of bat coronaviruses. It was conducted in the US, not China. So Senator Paul is not pulling the entire story out of nowhere, he is just trying to twist it and get Fauci to say the wrong thing so he can take it and run. It's just a smear campaign, and he's using just enough of the details so that people will think the NIH funded Wuhan research to create more dangerous viruses

It should be clear that part of the contention is whether or not the research in the US was indeed 'gain of function' research. They took bat coronavirus and combined it with mouse SARS to see if it could infect humans. Fauci argues this does not meet the definition of 'gain of function', and Rand Paul's team contends that it does; although he's more interested in trying to make the Wuhan research deemed gain of function research...