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  • Originally posted by JvDub95 View Post
    Clearly an unfortunate circumstance and clearly nobody wants to die...at least I would hope not. What is so wrong with waiting?? Why can't I see what happens to all the lab rats later down the road? This vaccine is different than all the other that came before it because it contains MRNA.....
    What is so wrong with waiting? How about contracting COVID and dying - just like the fella in the picture I posted above.


    Originally posted by JvDub95 View Post
    My hesitancy is directly related to MRNA. What do we know about it? What do we know about its long term affects of it? It's new In the vaccine world and i would bet over half of the population that took the vaccine know nothing about it. I'm not willing to put myself or my family at risk because it is a risk.

    So far according to "records" at least 11000 have died from just taking the Vax. https://clarion.causeaction.com/2021...ported-to-cdc/ I honestly believe it's more than that because I believe we've been lied to from the get go.

    We are almost 2 years in this mess now and I have yet to contract the virus. I've been in close contact with several who have had it (most with extremely mild symptoms, 1 had it rough but survived). If I haven't gotten it by now there is zero reason for me to jump right in line and comply. Heck....my 89 year old last remaining grandparent is telling me to stay away from it.
    Previously I posted here regarding mRNA data - but here's a re paste:

    Besides everything about previous mRNA vaccines being safe, and side effects usually showing up quickly, there isn’t really any biologic plausibility for mRNA to do any damage. While the "long term effects" for an individual vaccine isn't able to be studied before roll out (duh), our understanding of vaccination history and immunology generally fills in those gaps. It's the short-term reactions that we're most concerned with.

    To break it down even further:
    1. Unlike other vaccines, there isn’t any Covid (killed/attenuated) in this vaccine. All you have is mRNA data, which are instructions to make a protein. In this case, this is the spike protein. Normally mRNA is made in the nucleus and goes out to the ribosomes where proteins are made, and then the mRNA is degraded. Here we are just bringing the mRNA to the ribosome from outside. mRNA doesn’t have the capability of entering the nucleus and making changes to the DNA, where there would be potential to do damage.
    2. mRNA is super unstable and degrades really quickly (in a matter of hours). That’s why the Pfizer vaccine has to be held at such a low temperature, because otherwise the mRNA would degrade and be ineffective. That short time window + the lack of its ability to enter the nucleus really rules out any risk of significant side effects outside of allergic reactions.
    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ines/mrna.html

    And I'm glad you have been free of getting COVID. But I'm still waiting for you to answer the the original question I had. When I bring up a point like: if you refuse to get the vaccine when you could have, and you get into a world of hurt with COVID with bad symptoms - you should live with your own consequences right? I mean - it was YOUR choice to forgo recommended guidelines from concrete research and data.

    Then you came out defensively with a statement about how it's a hospitals JOB to take care of whoever, regardless of what they choose to do. However - you fail to grasp that the hospitals job is to take care of issues - but also - it's the health care professionals and hospitals role to EDUCATE patients on measures to prevent health care issues, so you don't come to the hospital in the first place.


    Here's the next post that I replied that you seemed to have missed: https://forums.denverbroncos.com/for...58#post8363458
    Last edited by Peerless; 07-24-2021, 07:49 AM.

    Comment


    • The concept of my way or the highway....take the vaccine...we do not care what the rest of the world is saying...take this vaccine that we do not know what it will do to you in 2 years....

      Well that is a big reason people do not trust the Establishment Health System. Close minded. Not willing to listen to others.

      The ironic thing is 2 years ago I was on the other side of this argument. Not understanding why people were saying the things they did about the Establishment Health System.
      Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Peerless View Post

        Some meta-analyses claim to find an overall significant effect (e.g. https://doi.org/10.1097/MJT.0000000000001402) while others do not find a significant effect (e.g. https://doi.org/10.1093/cid/ciab591).

        Clearly, we all look forward to seeing the results from more "gold standard" studies, like the Oxford one that is on-going. Many people stand to benefit from improvements in COVID treatment regardless of progress on the vaccine front.

        Ivermectin will remain an interest for treating and preventing COVID as further data is collected..... But there are questions which remain including important factors such as the best dose, how long ivermectin should be taken and when it should be given to people with COVID based on their stage of infection and illness.

        Until then, getting the vaccine will give you the best chance of avoiding severe COVID rather than waiting for a COVID treatment such as Ivermectin - which may or may not be shown to work.
        The link you quoted shows many people around the World saying it does work.

        The only people left saying it does not work or it "may or may not work" are the people trying to get everyone to take the vaccine. The My Way or the Highway people.

        That is called a Conflict of Interest.

        Your treatment can not work so take my treatment.
        Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hadez View Post
          The concept of my way or the highway....take the vaccine...we do not care what the rest of the world is saying...take this vaccine that we do not know what it will do to you in 2 years....

          Well that is a big reason people do not trust the Establishment Health System. Close minded. Not willing to listen to others.

          The ironic thing is 2 years ago I was on the other side of this argument. Not understanding why people were saying the things they did about the Establishment Health System.
          I still don't understand your views, although I have my theories. Can I ask, is this a conspiracy theory approach? I'm sure you will say it isn't but, what's with all the "junk" that floats around to counter pretty much proven results, example, the covid vaccines? What is out there that makes these vaccines so concerning. Hell, everyone I know jumped at the opportunity to get their "jabs". Most were even a bit excited, because they knew it was the game-changer. And so far it is. So why the issue? Big brother?? What is it that keeps these side stories lined up for air time?

          Are we looking for problems, or solving them?

          We can't talk politics, though it's very much part of this topic, but I'd love to chat about the relationship. Check out that Fauci survey I posted. No coincidence in the data we see.

          Comment


          • Read through this article Hadez from sciencebasedmedicine.org (https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/ive...oquine-take-2/)

            It is a long read, but is well thought out summary and review regarding Ivermectin, Dr. Kory and his metanalysis)

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JvDub95 View Post

              Clearly an unfortunate circumstance and clearly nobody wants to die...at least I would hope not. What is so wrong with waiting?? Why can't I see what happens to all the lab rats later down the road? This vaccine is different than all the other that came before it because it contains MRNA.....

              My hesitancy is directly related to MRNA. What do we know about it? What do we know about its long term affects of it? It's new In the vaccine world and i would bet over half of the population that took the vaccine know nothing about it. I'm not willing to put myself or my family at risk because it is a risk.

              So far according to "records" at least 11000 have died from just taking the Vax. https://clarion.causeaction.com/2021...ported-to-cdc/ I honestly believe it's more than that because I believe we've been lied to from the get go.

              We are almost 2 years in this mess now and I have yet to contract the virus. I've been in close contact with several who have had it (most with extremely mild symptoms, 1 had it rough but survived). If I haven't gotten it by now there is zero reason for me to jump right in line and comply. Heck....my 89 year old last remaining grandparent is telling me to stay away from it.
              Some people are trying to look into why some people get the virus and some people do not. While I have seen some doctors and scientists talk about this I do think it is one of the most under studied things of the Covid19 Pandemic.

              The Establishment Health System seems solely focused on the one goal of getting everyone vaccinated and they do not really seem to be putting very much resources into anything else.
              Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Hadez View Post

                The link you quoted shows many people around the World saying it does work.

                The only people left saying it does not work or it "may or may not work" are the people trying to get everyone to take the vaccine. The My Way or the Highway people.

                That is called a Conflict of Interest.

                Your treatment can not work so take my treatment.
                No, re open the links again - I was showing you that there are some meta-analyses claim to find an overall positive andsignificant effect (e.g. https://doi.org/10.1097/MJT.0000000000001402) while others do not find a significant effect (e.g. https://doi.org/10.1093/cid/ciab591).


                Hopefully the study Oxford just started will give some trustworthy, conclusive answers.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by CanDB View Post

                  I still don't understand your views, although I have my theories. Can I ask, is this a conspiracy theory approach? I'm sure you will say it isn't but, what's with all the "junk" that floats around to counter pretty much proven results, example, the covid vaccines? What is out there that makes these vaccines so concerning. Hell, everyone I know jumped at the opportunity to get their "jabs". Most were even a bit excited, because they knew it was the game-changer. And so far it is. So why the issue? Big brother?? What is it that keeps these side stories lined up for air time?

                  Are we looking for problems, or solving them?

                  We can't talk politics, though it's very much part of this topic, but I'd love to chat about the relationship. Check out that Fauci survey I posted. No coincidence in the data we see.
                  I will gladly answer your questions. I will start with two points.

                  1. I do not believe in Conspiracy Theories how most people think of them. I have worked in the government and work for big corporations. I do not believe human big entities can control events of the world like Conspiracy Theories seem to suggest. I said Human not because I think there is some other crazy interesting thing going on. I said human because humans are subjected to the human condition which leads to factors that imo makes Conspiracy Theories impossible. Working in Aerospace I have been trained on the human condition and how to remove the negative effects from my work. Not saying I am perfect in it...just saying I am aware of these human conditions.

                  With that said I do believe powerful forces will have an Alignment of Interests for various human factor reasons that people who just watch 2 min clips on some source or see social media memes may think it as a conspiracy.

                  I do think some powerful forces will try to control as much as they can to further their interests. I also think there are too many powerful forces for any Conspiracy of Control to exist how most view conspiracy theories.

                  For example when I saw a toxic political environment affecting the Covid19 information I got in the USA I started looking to information around the world on Covid19. I do not think any powerful interest controls information on a world wide scale at this time.


                  2. Please provide detail on the "junk" in the bolded statement.


                  Lastly

                  What is it that keeps these side stories lined up for air time?
                  Frankly how the mass media keeps things lined up for air time....or more importantly will not talk about other things....that is a thread all of its own Can. It involves the concept of working for a big business and how multiple powerful interests will try in many ways to exert their control over the narrative. I can take anyone down that path as well but how about we give media its own thread?
                  Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post

                    Again, this has zero relevance to what I am saying, you enjoy doing that and alluding to other points when your one-sided takes are easily picked apart. I mentioned that people refusing to get the vaccine are not the ones shutting society down, which you had mentioned. I just simply pointed out the fact that it's actually government who is doing that, no matter what the facade being put up by them is. I acknowledged the fact that the cause and effect of the lockdowns can be debated, but the bottom line is, governments around the world are making the call to harshly lockdown society, regardless of what valid or invalid reason they are using to do it, that is a fact.

                    On the point I made about your contradiction, again, you are going into other areas as you are just talking to talk. I said the contradiction existed in that you were saying Covid is a new infection and people are "silly" for the way they are responding. I simply pointed out that those "silly" people use that same logic and thought process from what I see as the reason they are not taking the vaccine. Again, your thoughts and strong beliefs you refer to here are irrelevant, the point made was that the same thought process is being applied to the other side of the argument, so maybe you can understand where they are coming from? Apparently not.

                    On the government points you make and the insanely hyperbolic yet terrible comparison to a potential world war and personal choice, how about some discussion on the points I made instead? Do you have any thoughts on that or it's all lockdown, vaccinate, and everything else suffers as there is no reasonable measure to discuss or consider in trying to repair the damage to other areas of society caused by the harsh government response? Is that the only solution you support? You don't support any ideas or approaches to moving forward and out of lockdowns and the restricted society so many are now living in?

                    The question then becomes, what if the vaccine isn't taken up to the point you want, and what the government wants, where do we go from there? Remain locked down?

                    On the NFL point, what are you even arguing? I didn't say anything controversial, in disagreement with what you said, or even something that would resemble an opinion, I again started a couple of facts and pointed out the rights in the situation that both parties would have. You really seem to be struggling with the fact that people differ in opinion, have different points of view and perspective, and that people of all sides deserve to be heard out and respected no matter what you think of what they are saying.

                    Look, I thought my post was pretty well written, considerate of both sides, and made some solid points in reference to lockdowns and government control. If you respond in more detail I am more than open to a reasonable discussion like I continue to show I am willing to do in this thread. If you want to make it as if I have personally attacked you, fine, but I think it is pretty clear in reading my responses that is not the case. You can pick a few out-of-context terms there and act like I am calling you names when you place them in isolattion, but again, I am clearly not and conversing quite reasonably.
                    I am not really keen on your approach either. I may be wrong, but some of your past posts on this board have been a little "different". Same here though. As for your approach, you did that before and you continue to pick away at the poster's style/response decision.

                    We've been thru the lockdown debate for many, many pages, so I try to move on. It apparently worked in your country and others.

                    Of course the war example was an exaggeration, but I said that. IMO government's role in a major pandemic is critical.

                    The NFL thing was just a last second addition to my post, because you mentioned it. It was late so I tried to add something you alluded to, not that I wanted to debate you. Plus it was mentioned by at least one other, so I just jotted it down.

                    Anyway...we can talk here. But if you don't love my responses, to your every point, move on. Just stop critiquing how I post. It's getting old.

                    And in general, I will continue to respect what most governments have done (not all), and how well vaccines are working (even though that's not your concern). But as long as conspiracy, far our junk is being promoted, I will rigidly in some cases, argue back. My basis for most of my view is based on what has succeeded, what has failed, how hard it is to be right about such a complex subject, and the credibility of those who I read/listen to. And most of all, I will continue to support the hospitals, the front liners, all those who have been innocent bystanders of the pandemic....which is why I fully support proper vaccination. And failure to take your medicine is the most likely way to continue taxing the healthcare system, its people, and all those waiting for their appointments for unrelated health reasons...who may pay a big price as a result of delayed prognosis/surgery.
                    Last edited by CanDB; 07-24-2021, 08:42 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Peerless View Post

                      No, re open the links again - I was showing you that there are some meta-analyses claim to find an overall positive andsignificant effect (e.g. https://doi.org/10.1097/MJT.0000000000001402) while others do not find a significant effect (e.g. https://doi.org/10.1093/cid/ciab591).


                      Hopefully the study Oxford just started will give some trustworthy, conclusive answers.
                      Deleted post as I was not understanding what you were saying.


                      I was not managing my human conditions very well. Need to go do some things will come back later.
                      Last edited by Hadez; 07-24-2021, 08:47 AM.
                      Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

                      Comment


                      • As for The NFL, I just read that 80% are in the vaccination process and 9 teams have 90% or more in that category. It was stated that teams are provided the most accurate information, from reputable experts, versus social media for example.

                        The approach has been working and there is continued momentum in the results.

                        My take is...if the number get to be over 90% on each team, there is little likelihood that outbreaks will occur. Therefore the odds of forfeited games will be very low. And between the NFL's edict about team responsibility and the intelligent effort to work players thru the vaccination process, this should go well.



                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by CanDB View Post

                          I am not really keen on your approach either. I may be wrong, but some of your past posts on this board have been a little "different". Same here though. As for your approach, you did that before and you continue to pick away at the poster's style/response decision.

                          We've been thru the lockdown debate for many, many pages, so I try to move on. It apparently worked in your country and others.

                          Of course the war example was an exaggeration, but I said that. IMO government's role in a major pandemic is critical.

                          The NFL thing was just a last second addition to my post, because you mentioned it. It was late so I tried to add something you alluded to, not that I wanted to debate you. Plus it was mentioned by at least one other, so I just jotted it down.

                          Anyway...we can talk here. But if you don't love my responses, to your every point, move on. Just stop critiquing how I post. It's getting old.

                          And in general, I will continue to respect what most governments have done (not all), and how well vaccines are working (even though that's not your concern). But as long as conspiracy, far our junk is being promoted, I will rigidly in some cases, argue back. My basis for most of my view is based on what has succeeded, what has failed, how hard it is to be right about such a complex subject, and the credibility of those who I read/listen to. And most of all, I will continue to support the hospitals, the front liners, all those who have been innocent bystanders of the pandemic....which is why I fully support proper vaccination. And failure to take your medicine is the most likely way to continue taxing the healthcare system, its people, and all those waiting for their appointments for unrelated health reasons...who may pay a big price as a result of delayed prognosis/surgery.
                          You actually have not responded at any point to the topic of lockdowns in the several pages we have been chatting here, other than stating you support them and people need to be vaccinated as if they don't governments are well within their right to continue to lockdown societies. I'll move on from the back and forth semantics as I think it is pretty clear you were not understanding what I was saying before in my lengthy post about the NFL, governments, and contradictory arguments being made, as I am interested to see how you feel about lockdowns in the future.

                          Now, yes, the initial lockdowns worked in Australia, without a mask mandate, and in the initial response everyone was friendly, governments on all sides teamed up, and it was a real "we are all in this together kind of approach". That is no longer a reality as protests are now happening, they cannot stop the spread, numbers continue to rise, and although the mass fear-mongering is rampart, no deaths are occurring, but governments remain staunch on their stance that we will be locked down until case numbers are close to zero.

                          My question again to you was, if the vaccine is not in enough people's bodies, do you support staying in lockdown and allowing all areas of society to suffer significantly and suffer further? Because that is exactly what is happening. I understand in the early days of the pandemic the major concern along with losing human life was the pressure not shutting down to control the spread would have on hospitalization and health care, but are we not in a better position today to take a considered and well thought out approach to moving forward and getting back to normality? Do you not think that is possible?

                          I understand your answer is probably, just get vaccinated, but that is not going to sink in for everyone, and people are going to be unresponsive to the soapbox nature of talking to them like that, something these "leaders" do not seem to understand. Even if you think these people are the idiots, the idiots are still needed to help you reach your vaccination targets, so maybe trying to communicate in a better way is the answer for leaders who seem to enjoy standing on their podiums and almost talking down to these people. I also don't think it's realistic to ever expect the unreachable right now to come around at any point, so then what? Do we remain locked down until the unreachable are finally reached? Is further government intervention needed then to get those people to forfeit choice and should they be forced to take the vaccine regardless? Why do you care if you are vaccinated, so confident in it's effectiveness, and the unvaccinated are accepting of the risk they take in ignoring the health advice, why are you so concerned? I just don't get it.


                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by CanDB View Post
                            As for The NFL, I just read that 80% are in the vaccination process and 9 teams have 90% or more in that category. It was stated that teams are provided the most accurate information, from reputable experts, versus social media for example.

                            The approach has been working and there is continued momentum in the results.

                            My take is...if the number get to be over 90% on each team, there is little likelihood that outbreaks will occur. Therefore the odds of forfeited games will be very low. And between the NFL's edict about team responsibility and the intelligent effort to work players thru the vaccination process, this should go well.


                            I think there will still be outbreaks.

                            Los Angeles County has 62% fully vaccinated and 70% least have one shot. LA is having a lot of positive cases. According to KTLA LA have as many cases as we did in February when only medical workers and extreme elderly had some access to the vaccine. If California were still on its tier system LA would be in the worst tier.

                            In my very limited experience people in LA were wearing masks indoors approx 80% before the indoor mask mandate came back.

                            The vaccine does not stop people from getting covid19 and it does not stop people from passing covid19 to others. From my understanding the vaccines strengths are allowing people to recover faster. The biggest upside is reduces hospilazations and reduces deaths.

                            I think it is also safe to expect numbers will go up this fall/winter for people in the NFL cities.

                            I hope the NFL keeps similar testing protocols from 2020 because the data gathered will be very useful in continuous improvement.
                            Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

                            Comment


                            • As a former pro poker player I like to play the odds. 99.5% of COVID deaths in the US are from people that didn't get vaccinated. And these numbers don't even factor in more people have been vaccinated than haven't, which makes the death rate even higher. 199 out of 200 chances of dying without or 1 out of 200 with...I'll take the "1".

                              For rights, the US Constitution says in the Preamble "provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare..." These words are also repeated in Article 1 Section 8 "provide for the common Defence and general Welfare" and are part of the only repeated phrase in the Constitution, which IMO makes them extremely important. It is my US Gov's obligation to protect me from others. "Freedom" isn't just about what individuals can so, freedom is also protection from what other individuals can do.

                              In addition, not wearing masks or getting vaccines is a National Security threat. All it would take is 50 ISIS members, Russians, Chineses, Al Quaeda or any terrorist group to bring the US to its knees is to spread COVID-like viruses across the USA, knowing the knob-lickers will ignore any and all advice and spread it across the USA.

                              Also if you don't get vaccinated don't expect the rest of us to pay for your medical bills. No health insurance, no bankruptcies, no one but the infected person pays. (Unless they have a valid, DR approved medical reason to no be vaccinated) Your choice. Your bill.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by lvbronx View Post
                                As a former pro poker player I like to play the odds. 99.5% of COVID deaths in the US are from people that didn't get vaccinated. And these numbers don't even factor in more people have been vaccinated than haven't, which makes the death rate even higher. 199 out of 200 chances of dying without or 1 out of 200 with...I'll take the "1".

                                For rights, the US Constitution says in the Preamble "provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare..." These words are also repeated in Article 1 Section 8 "provide for the common Defence and general Welfare" and are part of the only repeated phrase in the Constitution, which IMO makes them extremely important. It is my US Gov's obligation to protect me from others. "Freedom" isn't just about what individuals can so, freedom is also protection from what other individuals can do.

                                In addition, not wearing masks or getting vaccines is a National Security threat. All it would take is 50 ISIS members, Russians, Chineses, Al Quaeda or any terrorist group to bring the US to its knees is to spread COVID-like viruses across the USA, knowing the knob-lickers will ignore any and all advice and spread it across the USA.

                                Also if you don't get vaccinated don't expect the rest of us to pay for your medical bills. No health insurance, no bankruptcies, no one but the infected person pays. (Unless they have a valid, DR approved medical reason to no be vaccinated) Your choice. Your bill.
                                Exactly.....just pretend this is a simple probability assessment. If we leave out politics, rights, theories (of all sorts), the odds make this a relatively easy decision (unless you have some form of medical issue). It's like anything else in life.....everyday decisions are usually based on what odds tells us to do. If you are driving and it becomes icy, you probably should slow down. Failure to do so will likely increase your odds of getting into an accident. At the simplest of levels, that's how I believe folks should address this latest situation.

                                If (by now), we learned that a number of vaccinated people were having serious side effects, that might well change the assessment. But it has to be meaningful, not "I think someone got sick" type of comment. Or some conspiracy "fabrication".

                                Work the numbers!

                                And yes, it is a national security situation, and one that from a government perspective, has a real impact on healthcare, economics, education, policy, and of course, budget. Once you as a country are impacted by such considerations, government will be involved.
                                Last edited by CanDB; 07-27-2021, 07:03 AM.

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