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  • Originally posted by CanDB View Post

    Exactly.....just pretend this is a simple probability assessment. If we leave out politics, rights, theories (of all sorts), the odds make this is a relatively easy decision (unless you have some form of medical issue). It's like anything else in life.....everyday decisions are usually based on what odds tells us to do. If you are driving and it becomes icy, you probably should slow down. Failure to do so will likely increase your odds of getting into an accident. At the simplest of levels, that's how I believe folks should address this latest situation.

    If (by now), we learned that a number of vaccinated people were having serious side effects, that might well change the assessment. But it has to be meaningful, not "I think someone got sick" type of comment. Or some conspiracy "fabrication".

    Work the numbers!

    And yes, it is a national security situation, and one that from a government perspective, has a real impact on healthcare, economics, education, policy, and of course, budget. Once you as a country are impacted by such considerations, government will be involved.
    If we're playing odds I still don't want the vax because regardless of variant it's still around 98-99% survival rate for the vast majority of the population. And, after recovering from the virus I have natural built immunity to it....so the vax isn't needed.

    That's another thing that mainstream media doesn't talk about. The people that have recovered....the millions of people that have recovered. A LOT of those people don't want to take the vaccine for reasons I just stated. Why force that on them? They don't need it. The end result will not be peaceful if issues are forced

    Comment


    • Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post

      You actually have not responded at any point to the topic of lockdowns in the several pages we have been chatting here, other than stating you support them and people need to be vaccinated as if they don't governments are well within their right to continue to lockdown societies. I'll move on from the back and forth semantics as I think it is pretty clear you were not understanding what I was saying before in my lengthy post about the NFL, governments, and contradictory arguments being made, as I am interested to see how you feel about lockdowns in the future.

      Now, yes, the initial lockdowns worked in Australia, without a mask mandate, and in the initial response everyone was friendly, governments on all sides teamed up, and it was a real "we are all in this together kind of approach". That is no longer a reality as protests are now happening, they cannot stop the spread, numbers continue to rise, and although the mass fear-mongering is rampart, no deaths are occurring, but governments remain staunch on their stance that we will be locked down until case numbers are close to zero.

      My question again to you was, if the vaccine is not in enough people's bodies, do you support staying in lockdown and allowing all areas of society to suffer significantly and suffer further? Because that is exactly what is happening. I understand in the early days of the pandemic the major concern along with losing human life was the pressure not shutting down to control the spread would have on hospitalization and health care, but are we not in a better position today to take a considered and well thought out approach to moving forward and getting back to normality? Do you not think that is possible?

      I understand your answer is probably, just get vaccinated, but that is not going to sink in for everyone, and people are going to be unresponsive to the soapbox nature of talking to them like that, something these "leaders" do not seem to understand. Even if you think these people are the idiots, the idiots are still needed to help you reach your vaccination targets, so maybe trying to communicate in a better way is the answer for leaders who seem to enjoy standing on their podiums and almost talking down to these people. I also don't think it's realistic to ever expect the unreachable right now to come around at any point, so then what? Do we remain locked down until the unreachable are finally reached? Is further government intervention needed then to get those people to forfeit choice and should they be forced to take the vaccine regardless? Why do you care if you are vaccinated, so confident in it's effectiveness, and the unvaccinated are accepting of the risk they take in ignoring the health advice, why are you so concerned? I just don't get it.

      I guess I am not as interested in the lockdown discussion, because, quite frankly, where we live lockdowns are not necessary because of, you guessed it, effective vaccination roll out and stats to verify. It's mainly been about restrictions as opposed to lockdowns, and those are easing in many parts of Canada, and of course, The US. But I am proud to say that my province, along with others, has a one time vaccination rate nearing 80%, and a fully vaccinated rate nearing 2/3rds of eligible candidates. And those numbers keep rising. And our numbers are fairly consistent across Canada. That's why we are opening The US border in a couple of weeks, provided they are fully vaccinated. You see, that's the magic "pass" in many places these days....you can have your rights but we simply ask for you to be healthy in this regard, and considerate of those around you..... which has been my stance from day one. Think of others even if they are vaccinated.

      So, maybe that's part of your concern, me not talking about my lockdown beliefs. If you asked me last year, before vaccines, I would say that it worked in various countries, so who am I to say different. In fact, I was ok with it, if done early, sharply, but within reasonable timeframes. But here we are, in a post vaccine era, and unless something terrible happens, lockdowns will not be part of the dialogue. Restrictions of varying types will be relevant, and in my opinion, should be, pending the status of any region.

      All in all I will keep this short and summarize...

      I respect good governments who felt the need to take swift and measured actions, like lockdowns, to get a handle on the covid-19 disaster. I believe government has a major role in all of this, including guidance, financial support, measurement/monitoring, economic management, procurement of medical supplies including vaccines, and of course, control of healthcare in dire times, when the health of a nation is in fact a security risk (as mentioned by lvbronx)...not to mention the careful watchful eye of the medical system and its vulnerabilities. In the 2008 economic meltdown, the banks had to be assisted, as a fundamental element of economic recovery....so too do the healthcare systems in a healthcare meltdown so to speak, given the excessive, extremely taxing load of patients and unknowns with this disease.

      As for answering questions and truly paying attention...the bolded part speaks to me of a person who likes to critique others, but has clearly not been reading/listening. because if you have paid attention, I have talked endlessly about taxing the healthcare system, endangering and wearing down front line folks, preventing populations from moving forward, which includes loss of business activity, proper schooling, inability to see loved ones, continued mental health related issues, and on and on. I can tell you, now that our vaccination rates are rising to good levels, I feel much more confident. I fear this thing much less. So do my circle of family/friends. It's a common confidence. And I see hope for us to slowly but surely get back to some normalcy. Maybe plan a vacation, even if just to be with family. But if others want to take their chances, and yes, affect the lives of masses by slowly down the progression.....well, not getting my vote.

      So listen too, ok?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by lvbronx View Post
        As a former pro poker player I like to play the odds. 99.5% of COVID deaths in the US are from people that didn't get vaccinated. And these numbers don't even factor in more people have been vaccinated than haven't, which makes the death rate even higher. 199 out of 200 chances of dying without or 1 out of 200 with...I'll take the "1".

        For rights, the US Constitution says in the Preamble "provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare..." These words are also repeated in Article 1 Section 8 "provide for the common Defence and general Welfare" and are part of the only repeated phrase in the Constitution, which IMO makes them extremely important. It is my US Gov's obligation to protect me from others. "Freedom" isn't just about what individuals can so, freedom is also protection from what other individuals can do.

        In addition, not wearing masks or getting vaccines is a National Security threat. All it would take is 50 ISIS members, Russians, Chineses, Al Quaeda or any terrorist group to bring the US to its knees is to spread COVID-like viruses across the USA, knowing the knob-lickers will ignore any and all advice and spread it across the USA.

        Also if you don't get vaccinated don't expect the rest of us to pay for your medical bills. No health insurance, no bankruptcies, no one but the infected person pays. (Unless they have a valid, DR approved medical reason to no be vaccinated) Your choice. Your bill.
        I think this should apply to smokers as well.

        In fact if we want to start going down this road....there are probably a lot of people this can apply to....people who drink alcohol and develop liver problems for example.
        Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

        Comment


        • Originally posted by CanDB View Post

          Exactly.....just pretend this is a simple probability assessment. If we leave out politics, rights, theories (of all sorts), the odds make this is a relatively easy decision (unless you have some form of medical issue). It's like anything else in life.....everyday decisions are usually based on what odds tells us to do. If you are driving and it becomes icy, you probably should slow down. Failure to do so will likely increase your odds of getting into an accident. At the simplest of levels, that's how I believe folks should address this latest situation.

          If (by now), we learned that a number of vaccinated people were having serious side effects, that might well change the assessment. But it has to be meaningful, not "I think someone got sick" type of comment. Or some conspiracy "fabrication".

          Work the numbers!

          And yes, it is a national security situation, and one that from a government perspective, has a real impact on healthcare, economics, education, policy, and of course, budget. Once you as a country are impacted by such considerations, government will be involved.
          The numbers for the short term benefits are really impressive even considering the side effects and deaths imo.

          It would also be nice to see people acknowledge the known risks associated with vaccines without getting emotional about it. What side effects have we seen? How many people recovered from the side effects and how many were permanent? What data do we have with the vaccines ... good AND bad. How many people have died from getting the vaccine? What have been the history of new vaccines in terms of good and bad?

          Obviously I weighed all my options and got vaccinated.

          Talking with one of my friends who has been hesitant he is going to get the vaccine. My point is there are legit reasons some people do not want to take the vaccine...it is not just 12 people spreading disinformation on social media like how Mainstream media wants us to think. How did I get my vaccine hesitant friend to get vaccinated? I tried to understand his point of view. I did not try to pass any kind of judgement on his choice. I tried to talk it through...the good ... the bad ... and why I made my decision.

          Honestly this split tribalism "my way or the highway" the mainstream media knows what is best and everyone better fall in line or else....that is not going to get people to change their mind on vaccines.
          Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

          Comment


          • Originally posted by JvDub95 View Post

            If we're playing odds I still don't want the vax because regardless of variant it's still around 98-99% survival rate for the vast majority of the population. And, after recovering from the virus I have natural built immunity to it....so the vax isn't needed.

            That's another thing that mainstream media doesn't talk about. The people that have recovered....the millions of people that have recovered. A LOT of those people don't want to take the vaccine for reasons I just stated. Why force that on them? They don't need it. The end result will not be peaceful if issues are forced
            Again, we go back to the obvious -

            You can forgo education, best practice, and guidelines to help prevent the transmission of COVID.

            But if somehow, some way you catch it - and it gets bad enough - you'll go to the place that must help you, EVEN if you forwent and ignored all of the teaching and interventions to prevent it... right? Like now I have to bust my ass off to help you, because you couldn't do something simple to help prevent it... right?


            And I'm still waiting to hear your response to my reply to you found here regarding your hesitancy to mRNA data, something that has been around for many years.

            Comment



            • ”This 'pandemic' rapidly morphed into a mass game of virtue signalling and group psychology. Being terrified of the virus and talking about how scary it is makes you a 'good guy'. Not doing so makes you a 'bad guy'. It's a game of tribal signalling and social compliance.”

              ZUBY
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              • Originally posted by 58Miller

                Do vaccines work? Yes or no?
                Yes, vaccines and sanitation are the two most effective health care measures mankind has.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Peerless View Post

                  Yes, vaccines and sanitation are the two most effective health care measures mankind has.
                  Perfect! Then any who choose not to take them do it at there own risk!!! Just like those who choice to smoke, over eat, and over drink.
                  hospital still treat all of them right?
                  sigpic

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Peerless

                    Nearly all COVID deaths in US are now among unvaccinated. Iff you choose not to get vaccinated, then you really made your own bed. I sympathize much more with those who can't get vaccinated, are are surrounded by the people who choose not too.
                    I feel bad for all who die from Covid ( vaccinated or not) and those who have died after taking the vaccine.

                    I have a close friend who’s wife (42) died after getting vaccinated.

                    The whole pandemic has been sad for many reasons.
                    Last edited by 58Miller; 07-27-2021, 08:45 PM.
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 58Miller View Post
                      Perfect! Then any who choose not to take them do it at there own risk!!! Just like those who choice to smoke, over eat, and over drink.
                      hospital still treat all of them right?
                      Sorry, had to get one more reply in before I shut off the phone:

                      Yes.

                      All those educated smokers who need half of their lung removed. All of those overweight heart failure with coronary artery disease patients who need quadruple bypasses.... all of those chronic alcoholics in liver failure for the second time after their first transplant.... They ALLLLLLWAYS come back. They alllllways come back.

                      All of that education to prevent issues? A waste. George is still gonna smoke 50 darts a day, Delores is still going to drink crisco, and Frank is still gonna down three bottles of Jack.

                      All of those medical and surgical interventions to fix/replace? A waste....

                      You bet your ass they come back - and we still treat them, because that's our job and they have nowhere else to go. To fix your issues, because you couldn't stand to care or listen to preventive measures, the first time, the second time, etc.

                      Last edited by Peerless; 07-27-2021, 08:57 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by 58Miller View Post
                        I feel bad for all who die from Covid ( vaccinated or not) and those who have died after taking the vaccine.

                        I have a close friend who’s wife (42) died after getting vaccinated.

                        The whole pandemic has been sad for many reasons.
                        I do not think those judgmental against the vaccine hesitant care how many side effects or how many deaths were caused by the vaccines. Nor do they care no one knows if there will be any medium or long term negative side effects.

                        They just seem to want to say someone takes the vaccine or they are a bad person who follows disinformation and fake news.

                        The "news" they watch talks about how this is a pandemic of the non-vaccinated and never has a single report about the people suffering from vaccine side effects.

                        Do they even acknowledge there are side effects?

                        It does not feel like it on this thread.
                        Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Peerless View Post

                          Sorry, had to get one more reply in before I shut off the phone:

                          Yes.

                          All those educated smokers who need half of their lung removed. All of those overweight heart failure with coronary artery disease patients who need quadruple bypasses.... all of those chronic alcoholics in liver failure for the second time after their first transplant.... They ALLLLLLWAYS come back. They alllllways come back.

                          All of that education to prevent issues? A waste. George is still gonna smoke 50 darts a day, Delores is still going to drink crisco, and Frank is still gonna down three bottles of Jack.

                          All of those medical and surgical interventions to fix/replace? A waste....

                          You bet your ass they come back - and we still treat them, because that's our job and they have nowhere else to go. To fix your issues, because you couldn't stand to care or listen to preventive measures, the first time, the second time, etc.
                          Yep those people will always exist! All we can do is what we think is best for us and our family.

                          sigpic

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                          • Originally posted by Hadez

                            Guess you missed my point about the spike protein in general



                            Still waiting for you to produce data that shows the Covid19 vaccines are safe after 2 years...oh wait it does not exist.
                            Hey remember when I asked you to re-read a post recently found here on two studies on meta-anayslsis that I posted? And you realized that your "human nature" took over and you were wrong or something like that?

                            I think you're missing the point... on the question you asked me on 'spike proteins'

                            Again, for your reference: I have it saved and will share again: https://forums.denverbroncos.com/for...13#post8363313

                            And you want me to produce data that shows COVID19 vaccines are safe after two years. Why don't you show me data on COVID 19 vaccines being unsafe after two years? Oh.... "Well how irrational of a question is that Peerless..."


                            (edited second link)
                            Last edited by Peerless; 07-27-2021, 09:12 PM.

                            Comment


                            • If the Covid19 vaccines are so safe why are they still under Emergency Authorization? Everyone else in the world has sacrificed much the last year but the Establishment Health System can not even recognize the covid19 vaccines are safe enough for regular authorization.
                              Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by 58Miller View Post
                                Yep those people will always exist! All we can do is what we think is best for us and our family.
                                Sorry chief, sometimes your best ain't good enough! And you'll only realize that when it's too little or too late! Remember - one day it COULD be you.

                                Listen to the scientist, the researchers, the providers. Science r00Lz.

                                Comment

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