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  • So even the most staunch, authoritarian supportive individuals who felt the vaccination was the final and only solution to moving forward and out of the pandemic, are now concerned that even the vaccinated need to be protected once vaccinated from those who are unvaccinated ? Has something in the science changed or evolved to warrant this ? Or is the fact that new cases are currently up roughly 176% in the United States on where they were last year, despite over 50% of the population being vaccinated the concern ? Or is it Canada with new cases being up a whopping 360% from this time last year, despite almost 70% of the population being vaccinated, what has changed ?

    I know the Delta variant was said to be less deadly as it was infecting younger people who are better equipped at dealing with the infection, and those questioning the Delta hysteria enforced lockdowns being unwarranted were consequently explained away with that, but why ? Vaccinations rates are significantly up, so why is it so frightening to the vaccinated people like you Can, who have been adamant for months on the vaccination being the solution ? Why the fear of the "non-vaccinated offender" as you so put it, when you were so confident in the vaccination only approach to ending lockdowns and restrictions ? I am confused.

    Comment


    • Arguments that Covid vaccinations prevent the virus from spreading to help protect unvaccinated people from other unvaccinated people, for example children under 12 not eligible for the vaccine or people with medical reasons for not being vaccinated (shellfish allergies) - don’t hold up based on what we already know. It’s already established that the vaccines don’t prevent someone from transmitting the virus, especially in light of new variants such as Delta. The CDC changed it’s mask guidance based on this premise.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Fantaztic7 View Post

        Since they’re being proactive, should they have a flu vaccine protocol? Following that through on that logic anyone attending a large gathering should need proof of a flu vaccine or negative test. Plus, those not vaccinated for the flu should have to wear a mask.
        Has it been this deadly? Oh, and here is another organization being proactive. Queue the inevitable “I’m no longer a fan of the NFL and won’t watch any more games” reactions

        https://www.si.com/nfl/2021/08/12/ne...est-home-games




        Comment


        • Originally posted by Bronco51 View Post

          Has it been this deadly? Oh, and here is another organization being proactive. Queue the inevitable “I’m no longer a fan of the NFL and won’t watch any more games” reactions

          https://www.si.com/nfl/2021/08/12/ne...est-home-games
          It hasn’t been that deadly with the demographic age group of the people we’re talking about going to concerts/festivals/sporting events. The higher death rate is among people older than 65, especially so in people 75-85. People of higher age and/or underlying medical condition would certainly want to be vaccinated going to Lollapalooza. However, the stats clearly show Covid is not that “deadly” among a younger demographic - certainly not enough to justify vaccination or testing for everyone attending large gathering.

          What is the definition of “deadly”? The flu has killed as many as 65,000 people in a year in the United States. How are 65,000 deaths from the flu somehow less worthy of prevention protocols at these events? Also, the flu death rate among children is higher than Covid - if we’re requiring these safety protocols for Covid, there’s no legitimate argument opposing the same be put in place for the flu.

          The death rate among the young is extremely low, certainly not high enough to justify these protocols - there aren’t a lot of 80 year olds going to Lollapalooza.


          Last edited by Fantaztic7; 08-13-2021, 05:53 AM.

          Comment


          • The only medical procedures denied to people were a result of government imposed restrictions during the pandemic. Healthcare wasn’t denied due to capacity, just arbitrary mandates or decisions by health systems to stop procedures. In terms of workload or burnout, healthcare workers had time to produce a sleuth of well choreographed TikTok videos, so there’s really no case to be made about capacity/workload.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by johnlimburg
              I understand that angle, we discussed it before. But at the end of the day a hospitals role is to care for the sick, and right now the risk is there from Covid. Does it suck ? Yes, but that is the role of the health care system, to catch those who fall ill and need help, that is why it was created. Plenty of poor individual choices from individuals leads to them becoming a strain on the health care system in various locations around the world, plenty which kill more people than Covid does daily, you know that, but the Government response to that is what differs, and that is what I continue to disagree with.
              Actually, at the end of the day the hospitals role is to care for the sick, but also to educate the population on preventative and prophylactic measures to improve their health. The measures are based on clinical evidence and science. What really irks me is this situation (that I have dealt with on a weekly basis):

              A person who does not want or refuses a vaccination that they could easily get - comes to the hospital with COVID symptoms. The same people who don't "want the jab" because it's not going to work, isn't real, has some sort of conspiracy nature to it, don't believe or care in science- will come to the hospital (a place geared and ran on science and evidence based practice from clinical trials and data) to get help. It's ridiculous.


              Originally posted by johnlimburg
              For example, an overweight diabetic who ate themselves into that state becomes a drain on the health care system for decades on end, why is that not causing mass government restriction on eating habits ? That is a huge problem in the western world, it's also a massive drain on the economy. It is a poor choice which led them there, just like choosing to not get vaccinated is, but where is the intervention ? My body, my choice, you can eat what you want, but we all know the results of it, and you will eventually live with those consequences. Should government enforce rules such as a sugar or fat tax ? That wouldn't be fair to those who enjoy some junk food from time to time who are healthy. That is a terrible solution to a long-term health issue rampart in society which effects the health care system greatly, and individual life also, you don't punish everyone for the poor decisions of few.
              Here's the thing John - the hospitals are already tight with these types of patient populations. The hospitals (who want to do everything they can to save money) work with as little as they can, to save as much as they can. The extra burden with the COVID patient's puts an even greater strain on the industry. You do make a good point, because the scenarios are similar. But which situation is more identifiable and correctable in a short time period? Receiving a vaccine.

              With all of the education, medications, diet plans, workout plans, etc - the number of deaths each year due to having overweight or obesity is at least 2.8 million people (WHO, 2020). There have been 4.3million deaths from COVID alone. You can't tell me, a vaccination to those individuals would greatly reduce that number.

              Originally posted by johnlimburg
              Same thing if you refuse to get the vaccine. It is pretty clear that it will reduce symptoms and your chance of dying is greatly reduced if you catch it, people have been made aware of that and if they choose not to get it, they might eventually live with those consequences. But again, why are vaccinated people so fearful of the unvaccinated as Can expressed in his comments ? Especially when so staunch in support of the vaccine being the only solution to ending lockdowns and restrictions. Again, why govern to the poor decisions of few and punish all in the process?
              Because - an unvaccinated person is still putting me at more risk than an vaccinated person. It's really, that simple.


              Originally posted by johnlimburg
              My gripe mainly is, why are millions of people now forced to suffer the consequences of mass government enforced restrictions and lockdowns when even if unvaccinated the chance of dying is significantly low, why ? My argument and angle here wasn't even related to the points you have responded with, it's in regards to the confidence of people who seen the vaccine as the only solution to moving forward, now being fearful of those who are unvaccinated, while coming to the realisation it probably wasn't the final solution they thought it would be. Sure, argue about the impact on the health care system, very valid argument and discussion around that is warranted, but the irony of people now using the changed sentiment on the effectiveness of vaccinations in response to the Delta strain is astonishing. Especially when a large portion of people who were against the idea of a vaccination were mostly concerned with the fact no long-term results on the effects of it were known, and now here we are and those same staunch "vaccine or lockdown" people saying, but hey, it's evolving.
              You know compared to last summer/year - I don't believe millions of people are forced to suffer the consequences of the lockdowns and restrictions. Here where I live - stores are open including large chain and local shops, people are shopping, buying, eating out, going to the movies, etc. People are getting their vaccinations, wearing masks as needed, trying to keep distances - and they are living life compared to last year.

              The unvaccinated people who pose a risk to themselves, other unvaccinated folks, vaccinated folks, the health care industry - are the ones prolonging these restrictions. They are not being team players, they are being selfish (especially if there is no reason for them to not get the vaccine).

              Hey - like I said. It's not my problem if you didn't get vaccinated and died of COVID. It's not my fault you can't get into this concert, this restaurant, this ball game because you're not vaccinated. I'm moving forward with my life to try and get back to "normal". If I have to show a vaccine card, or wear a mask here and there? Whatever. I'm doing what I can do, to get back to normal life.
              Last edited by Peerless; 08-13-2021, 09:17 AM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
                So even the most staunch, authoritarian supportive individuals who felt the vaccination was the final and only solution to moving forward and out of the pandemic, are now concerned that even the vaccinated need to be protected once vaccinated from those who are unvaccinated ? Has something in the science changed or evolved to warrant this ? Or is the fact that new cases are currently up roughly 176% in the United States on where they were last year, despite over 50% of the population being vaccinated the concern ? Or is it Canada with new cases being up a whopping 360% from this time last year, despite almost 70% of the population being vaccinated, what has changed ?

                I know the Delta variant was said to be less deadly as it was infecting younger people who are better equipped at dealing with the infection, and those questioning the Delta hysteria enforced lockdowns being unwarranted were consequently explained away with that, but why ? Vaccinations rates are significantly up, so why is it so frightening to the vaccinated people like you Can, who have been adamant for months on the vaccination being the solution ? Why the fear of the "non-vaccinated offender" as you so put it, when you were so confident in the vaccination only approach to ending lockdowns and restrictions ? I am confused.
                I am busy with something but will definitely reply.

                Vaccines absolutely work. Delta is on steroids as it goes thru the unvaccinated population, corresponding with reduced restrictions. That's why the significant increases. Even where I live, if we add a small number to our small total, it will look like a huge increase. Simple mathematics, simple logic.

                Later.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by johnlimburg

                  I understand that angle, we discussed it before. But at the end of the day a hospitals role is to care for the sick, and right now the risk is there from Covid. Does it suck ? Yes, but that is the role of the health care system, to catch those who fall ill and need help, that is why it was created. Plenty of poor individual choices from individuals leads to them becoming a strain on the health care system in various locations around the world, plenty which kill more people than Covid does daily, you know that, but the Government response to that is what differs, and that is what I continue to disagree with.

                  For example, an overweight diabetic who ate themselves into that state becomes a drain on the health care system for decades on end, why is that not causing mass government restriction on eating habits ? That is a huge problem in the western world, it's also a massive drain on the economy. It is a poor choice which led them there, just like choosing to not get vaccinated is, but where is the intervention ? My body, my choice, you can eat what you want, but we all know the results of it, and you will eventually live with those consequences. Should government enforce rules such as a sugar or fat tax ? That wouldn't be fair to those who enjoy some junk food from time to time who are healthy. That is a terrible solution to a long-term health issue rampart in society which effects the health care system greatly, and individual life also, you don't punish everyone for the poor decisions of few.

                  Same thing if you refuse to get the vaccine. It is pretty clear that it will reduce symptoms and your chance of dying is greatly reduced if you catch it, people have been made aware of that and if they choose not to get it, they might eventually live with those consequences. But again, why are vaccinated people so fearful of the unvaccinated as Can expressed in his comments ? Especially when so staunch in support of the vaccine being the only solution to ending lockdowns and restrictions. Again, why govern to the poor decisions of few and punish all in the process?

                  My gripe mainly is, why are millions of people now forced to suffer the consequences of mass government enforced restrictions and lockdowns when even if unvaccinated the chance of dying is significantly low, why ? My argument and angle here wasn't even related to the points you have responded with, it's in regards to the confidence of people who seen the vaccine as the only solution to moving forward, now being fearful of those who are unvaccinated, while coming to the realisation it probably wasn't the final solution they thought it would be. Sure, argue about the impact on the health care system, very valid argument and discussion around that is warranted, but the irony of people now using the changed sentiment on the effectiveness of vaccinations in response to the Delta strain is astonishing. Especially when a large portion of people who were against the idea of a vaccination were mostly concerned with the fact no long-term results on the effects of it were known, and now here we are and those same staunch "vaccine or lockdown" people saying, but hey, it's evolving.
                  To infinity...and beyond.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
                    So even the most staunch, authoritarian supportive individuals who felt the vaccination was the final and only solution to moving forward and out of the pandemic, are now concerned that even the vaccinated need to be protected once vaccinated from those who are unvaccinated ? Has something in the science changed or evolved to warrant this ? Or is the fact that new cases are currently up roughly 176% in the United States on where they were last year, despite over 50% of the population being vaccinated the concern ? Or is it Canada with new cases being up a whopping 360% from this time last year, despite almost 70% of the population being vaccinated, what has changed ?

                    I know the Delta variant was said to be less deadly as it was infecting younger people who are better equipped at dealing with the infection, and those questioning the Delta hysteria enforced lockdowns being unwarranted were consequently explained away with that, but why ? Vaccinations rates are significantly up, so why is it so frightening to the vaccinated people like you Can, who have been adamant for months on the vaccination being the solution ? Why the fear of the "non-vaccinated offender" as you so put it, when you were so confident in the vaccination only approach to ending lockdowns and restrictions ? I am confused.
                    Originally posted by CanDB View Post

                    I am busy with something but will definitely reply.

                    Vaccines absolutely work. Delta is on steroids as it goes thru the unvaccinated population, corresponding with reduced restrictions. That's why the significant increases. Even where I live, if we add a small number to our small total, it will look like a huge increase. Simple mathematics, simple logic.

                    Later.
                    I'm back.

                    First bolded point....

                    Where did you get your data of 360% increase over last year? Was it because last year, there were small numbers of cases? Where I live, in July, 2020 for sure, we almost had no cases. So for example, if we had 3 cases one day last July, and 12 today, that would represent a major increase of 400%. Except that would be irrelevant given the pandemic was a null event here at that time, whereas 12 cases today would still represent almost no cases.

                    FTR, I can not speak to every Canadian jurisdictions, because unlike some people who think I probably know a guy named "Rick" who apparently lives in Canada, but I can assure you that Canada is progressing very well due to high vaccination rates, and many restrictions over the various provinces have been lifted as a result. We have seen our kids for the first time in close to 20 months, thanks to the declining issues.

                    BUT.....we still have unvaccinated people who are more likely to be delta variant candidates, because as you know, the variant is significantly more active, and last year at this time there was no such beast.

                    As for the last bolded item....first, I am not frightened, because I am fully vaccinated, I follow the protocols in place and then some, and see the amazing positive stats that favour fully vaccinated people. My kids are much younger, but somehow they are also in step with the rules, and only meet with fully vaccinated folks. Heck, they are more open minded than I am, but they understand this in their own terms. One works in healthcare, and has been vaccinated since vaccines were introduced. They respect covid caution....and not just for themselves.

                    But I will again explain to you that unvaccinated folks are the much greater risk, the ones most likely to visit hospitals as a result. They are much more likely to slow down the healthcare systems, and cause the staff to support them. They are the ones delaying others from getting medical help, because of the bogged down healthcare system/facilities/resources. And they are the ones that keep leaders on their toes, as they try and try to move economies forward, and get us back to some form of normalcy. They may be feeling like we are over-reacting, but they are the reason we can not progress at a nice speed.

                    Again, simple mathematics, simple logic. I am sorry you are confused. But here's something to nibble on.....I believe that if every person was fully vaccinated, covid would nearly be over. Not 100% over, but much closer than today. Even I respect the fact that vaccines are not 100% perfect. But while they are not perfect, the small % of vaccinated folks that get covid will, on average, suffer much less.

                    Last edited by CanDB; 08-13-2021, 01:19 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Peerless View Post

                      Actually, at the end of the day the hospitals role is to care for the sick, but also to educate the population on preventative and prophylactic measures to improve their health. The measures are based on clinical evidence and science. What really irks me is this situation (that I have dealt with on a weekly basis):

                      A person who does not want or refuses a vaccination that they could easily get - comes to the hospital with COVID symptoms. The same people who don't "want the jab" because it's not going to work, isn't real, has some sort of conspiracy nature to it, don't believe or care in science- will come to the hospital (a place geared and ran on science and evidence based practice from clinical trials and data) to get help. It's ridiculous.




                      Here's the thing John - the hospitals are already tight with these types of patient populations. The hospitals (who want to do everything they can to save money) work with as little as they can, to save as much as they can. The extra burden with the COVID patient's puts an even greater strain on the industry. You do make a good point, because the scenarios are similar. But which situation is more identifiable and correctable in a short time period? Receiving a vaccine.

                      With all of the education, medications, diet plans, workout plans, etc - the number of deaths each year due to having overweight or obesity is at least 2.8 million people (WHO, 2020). There have been 4.3million deaths from COVID alone. You can't tell me, a vaccination to those individuals would greatly reduce that number.



                      Because - an unvaccinated person is still putting me at more risk than an vaccinated person. It's really, that simple.




                      You know compared to last summer/year - I don't believe millions of people are forced to suffer the consequences of the lockdowns and restrictions. Here where I live - stores are open including large chain and local shops, people are shopping, buying, eating out, going to the movies, etc. People are getting their vaccinations, wearing masks as needed, trying to keep distances - and they are living life compared to last year.

                      The unvaccinated people who pose a risk to themselves, other unvaccinated folks, vaccinated folks, the health care industry - are the ones prolonging these restrictions. They are not being team players, they are being selfish (especially if there is no reason for them to not get the vaccine).

                      Hey - like I said. It's not my problem if you didn't get vaccinated and died of COVID. It's not my fault you can't get into this concert, this restaurant, this ball game because you're not vaccinated. I'm moving forward with my life to try and get back to "normal". If I have to show a vaccine card, or wear a mask here and there? Whatever. I'm doing what I can do, to get back to normal life.
                      Exactly Brent!

                      Went to a restaurant today....masks required.

                      Folks going to a CFL game here tonight....must prove total vaccination. (and lets not go back to the fake vaccination concern, because that will be an issue in almost every aspect in life, wherever people take risks to try to gain entry.....and face disciplinary action if caught)

                      Want to cross our border...get fully vaccinated and verify with a negative test. (hey, if you don't like Canada, no biggee)

                      Vaccinated folks and those who continue to use caution and common sense are winning, and that will continue for a while. More and more benefits will go the way of the vaccinated, in many places. I am very, very good with it all. For now. Though at some point I expect even better results, because like everyone else, I want normalcy.

                      Comment


                      • If it’s raining and you have an umbrella, why does the person walking next to you need an umbrella to keep you dry?

                        If someone is vaccinated and believes in the efficacy of the vaccine, what’s the need for someone you’re with to be vaccinated?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Peerless View Post

                          Actually, at the end of the day the hospitals role is to care for the sick, but also to educate the population on preventative and prophylactic measures to improve their health. The measures are based on clinical evidence and science. What really irks me is this situation (that I have dealt with on a weekly basis):
                          A person who does not want or refuses a vaccination that they could easily get - comes to the hospital with COVID symptoms. The same people who don't "want the jab" because it's not going to work, isn't real, has some sort of conspiracy nature to it, don't believe or care in science- will come to the hospital (a place geared and ran on science and evidence based practice from clinical trials and data) to get help. It's ridiculous.

                          Here's the thing John - the hospitals are already tight with these types of patient populations. The hospitals (who want to do everything they can to save money) work with as little as they can, to save as much as they can. The extra burden with the COVID patient's puts an even greater strain on the industry. You do make a good point, because the scenarios are similar. But which situation is more identifiable and correctable in a short time period? Receiving a vaccine.

                          With all of the education, medications, diet plans, workout plans, etc - the number of deaths each year due to having overweight or obesity is at least 2.8 million people (WHO, 2020). There have been 4.3million deaths from COVID alone. You can't tell me, a vaccination to those individuals would greatly reduce that number.

                          Because - an unvaccinated person is still putting me at more risk than an vaccinated person. It's really, that simple.
                          Great point on the role of the health care system being to educate, but you know as well as any that the majority of that educating will always fall on deaf ears, correct ? Obese people and the issues an unhealthy lifestyle presents are easily eliminated with better personal choices, and they place a burden on the health care system for decades on end, so I just don't think the argument validates shutting down societies, it's not a productive answer, it's a lazy one as far as I am concerned. I also think the fact so many other functions of society suffer in the process is more reason why it is a lazy answer from leadership and proponents of opening up completely.

                          You are also right on one being more correctable in a short period of time, I argued that in this thread when Covid first emerged when certain people were hell bent on telling others to just improve their health. We all know that wouldn't happen and to turn around your terrible health in a short amount of time to combat a global pandemic which emerged over night was a poor response in my opinion. However, now 20 months on from the start of the pandemic, if you had started, odds are the majority of people could have turned their potential survival rate against Covid drastically around, but knew that wouldn't happen.

                          I also wouldn't try to tell you that the vaccination to anyone is going to hurt, except obviously the few deaths which have occurred from blood clotting and the rest, but those chances are so low. But that is not my stance here or what I am discussing. My angle for my comments is pretty much entirely from the point of view that you should not punish the masses for the poor decisions of few who don't get the vaccine, I said that not getting it was a poor choice, especially if you are living an unhealthy lifestyle. So yeah, that is not my argument here and hasn't been at any point. My point and use of what I think is a perfect example here, is that you don't punish the masses for the poor choices of some, although that is often the way government operates.

                          You know compared to last summer/year - I don't believe millions of people are forced to suffer the consequences of the lockdowns and restrictions. Here where I live - stores are open including large chain and local shops, people are shopping, buying, eating out, going to the movies, etc. People are getting their vaccinations, wearing masks as needed, trying to keep distances - and they are living life compared to last year.

                          The unvaccinated people who pose a risk to themselves, other unvaccinated folks, vaccinated folks, the health care industry - are the ones prolonging these restrictions. They are not being team players, they are being selfish (especially if there is no reason for them to not get the vaccine).

                          Hey - like I said. It's not my problem if you didn't get vaccinated and died of COVID. It's not my fault you can't get into this concert, this restaurant, this ball game because you're not vaccinated. I'm moving forward with my life to try and get back to "normal". If I have to show a vaccine card, or wear a mask here and there? Whatever. I'm doing what I can do, to get back to normal life.
                          In some parts of the world that is true, unfortunately where I live it isn't. The strictest of lockdowns exist for 2-4 Covid deaths per day, and the rest of society is suffering in other ways right now. But even in your situation, I still don't think it makes sense to do as you are saying, or act in this nature. Great, you got the vaccine and can now start to live a somewhat normal life once again. But like that video of Don Lemon standing on his high horse saying that any person who is unvaccinated shouldn't even be allowed outside essentially, that is non-sense in my opinion, and that is what I was talking about with my initial posts that you replied to.

                          I just don't think if you are a vaccinated individual you should be concerned with being at an event with an "unvaccinated offender". You said it, others have been adamant about it, the reason you get the vaccination is it reduces symptoms drastically and your chance of dying is extremely minimalised. Let's get back to living and stop the divisiveness around allowing certain people to do certain things guised under the facade of it being selfish, and treating those who have decided not to get a vaccine like lepers. Never in human history have we been so concerned with what their neighbour is doing with their body. Worry about yourself I say, and if you are so confident in the vaccine, get it and you will be protected against those "unvaccinated offenders".

                          Comment


                          • There were comments about cases increasing in Canada based on a high vaccination rate essentially ending the pandemic. On August 9th there were 3,344 cases vs 230 the same day in 2020, a 14.5 fold increase in cases. As we’re well aware the vaccines were not available in August of last year.

                            Comment


                            • If people actually believe the efficacy of vaccines to prevent severe infections, hospitalizations and death - there is no legitimate argument for:

                              1. Safety protocols at large gatherings like concerts and sports events. No masks, proof of vaccine or negative test can be supported. The vaccinated tout miraculous protection from Covid, so there’s no need to be concerned about anyone else at an event. As soon as you argue for those protocols you’ve discredited the vaccine - this does not convey confidence. The notion of normalcy is false if you have to show vaccine cards or be swabbed - we didn’t do those things before the pandemic so that’s far from “normal”.

                              2. Helping the healthcare system by forcing the vaccine on others. The argument that hospitals will be overwhelmed assumes no one has been vaccinated or people who’ve been infected don’t have natural immunity. The United States is at 51% fully vaccinated and 60% with one dose. Conservatively, if only half of those at one dose get the second we would be at 56% vaccinated. 37 million people had a confirmed case, over 10% of the population with natural immunity. There are millions more who were infected who were not tested. That conservatively puts the country at 66% with immunity. There is simply no argument the healthcare system can be overwhelmed with 66% of the population with immunity.

                              Again, if the efficacy of vaccines is as good as being sold - there is absolutely no reason to not have everything wide open. No masks, no distancing or proof of vaccines. Any argument to keep those measures discredits the fervent position in the miraculous benefits of the vaccines.

                              Comment


                              • Update: 63 Covid cases on Martha’s Vineyard after the celebrity birthday party, most since April.

                                Another example of the people telling you they care about Covid don’t really care about Covid.

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