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  • Originally posted by SecondsAway131 View Post
    America has a well-documented history of losing its cool when alcohol is taken away. The demand for alcohol will not decrease because the stores are closed. This opens up opportunity for illegal distilling, sales, and an increase in overall crime. There are also serious safety concerns of unregulated alcohol being mass distributed. I don't think current legislators want that madness on their hands.

    Also, there are nearly 15 million people in the US that suffer from Alcohol Use Disorder. These are people that could possibly flood the healthcare system with withdrawal from lack of access.

    Overall, I think closing liquor stores would create more problems than it would prevent.
    That’s a reasonable position and my point isn’t to close liquor stores. The point is that it’s unreasonable to close places of worship, telling people it’s dangerous - when letting people go out to buy alcohol. The same risk of infection applies with a gathering of people in a liquor store as a small group going to church. It’s applying the rules differently to one group vs another.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
      That’s a reasonable position and my point isn’t to close liquor stores. The point is that it’s unreasonable to close places of worship, telling people it’s dangerous - when letting people go out to buy alcohol. The same risk of infection applies with a gathering of people in a liquor store as a small group going to church. It’s applying the rules differently to one group vs another.
      But not all churches are small is an argument that can be made. At least with liquor stores, you can mitigate by controlling how many people are going in. I get there are small churches, but as for those mega churches...how do you limit those numbers? Would you think there would be more of an uproar if some churches were allowed to open and others weren't due to size?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
        That’s a reasonable position and my point isn’t to close liquor stores. The point is that it’s unreasonable to close places of worship, telling people it’s dangerous - when letting people go out to buy alcohol. The same risk of infection applies with a gathering of people in a liquor store as a small group going to church. It’s applying the rules differently to one group vs another.
        I wouldn't say they carry the same amount of risk, and I don't think it's particularly close. I've rarely ever been to a liquor store that has more than 10 people inside at a time, and I've rarely ever been to a worship service that has less than 50 people at a time. Mass gatherings are much more dangerous to the spread of the virus than a small store that can limit the number of customers allowed inside.

        My earlier point wasn't to prove that liquor stores need to stay open, it was to point out why they are being treated differently than other locations, including places of worship.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Bronco51 View Post
          But not all churches are small is an argument that can be made. At least with liquor stores, you can mitigate by controlling how many people are going in. I get there are small churches, [B]but as for those mega churches...how do you limit those numbers?[B/] Would you think there would be more of an uproar if some churches were allowed to open and others weren't due to size?
          I didn’t say small church, I said small group. How do you limit the number of people in a liquor store, grocery store or big box warehouse store? By allowing so many into the store at a time. The stores, at least where I’m at have tape on the floor to help people know the proper distance waiting in line. They’ve added arrows to help people flow one way through aisles.

          Is it not possible for churches do the same thing? Do you not believe churches can take the same precautions? If you allow fewer people into a church, like they do at Costco, a church could have more services to accommodate their members with fewer people.

          It’s fascinating to see the efforts made to justify “essential” activities, but churches must remain closed. People must not work. Magically the risk of infection and/or spreading the virus disappears when going to Costco or a liquor store. Don’t dare hold a drive in church service, it’s dangerous.

          Edit: As for those mega churches, what about those “mega” sized stores like Sams Club, Super Walmart, Target and Costco? How do you limit the number of people in those stores?
          Last edited by Fantaztic7; 04-17-2020, 02:52 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by SecondsAway131 View Post
            I wouldn't say they carry the same amount of risk, and I don't think it's particularly close. I've rarely ever been to a liquor store that has more than 10 people inside at a time, and I've rarely ever been to a worship service that has less than 50 people at a time. Mass gatherings are much more dangerous to the spread of the virus than a small store that can limit the number of customers allowed inside.

            My earlier point wasn't to prove that liquor stores need to stay open, it was to point out why they are being treated differently than other locations, including places of worship.
            Have you ever been to Total Beverage? Or Fat Dog Liquor in Texas? Have you ever been to a Virginia ABC store on payday? There’s more than a few people in those stores. I’ve been in a Total Beverage store more crowded than Costco.

            Do you not think a church can limit the number of people attending per service? And add more services per day? When a church in Mississippi had a drive in service where families remained parked in their cars while the pastor gave his sermon, how is that harming anyone? State police came and broke up the service. In Kentucky they had a similar service. State police showed up and took down license plate numbers. Afterward they served quarantine notices to people who attended the service.

            There is no justification for stripping people of their right to assemble in that manner. It’s draconian and does nothing to protect people from Coronavirus.

            It’s quite sad to see people justify such measures.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Bronco51 View Post
              But not all churches are small is an argument that can be made. At least with liquor stores, you can mitigate by controlling how many people are going in. I get there are small churches, but as for those mega churches...how do you limit those numbers? Would you think there would be more of an uproar if some churches were allowed to open and others weren't due to size?
              Just to clarify, you’re saying it was justified to summons 15 people and arrest one person outside a synagogue during a funeral?

              Can you think of another way the police could handle that situation?

              Comment


              • You all have been busy today. I'm finally caught up.

                Originally posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor View Post
                I don’t have the answers either but a gradual rollback starting at the beginning of May some states are adopting seems to be a reasonable solution. Imo leaving everyone in lockdown until there’s a vaccine won’t work.
                Hopefully, it will work out. Rolling out too soon could put us back where we are right now.

                Originally posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor View Post
                On a positive note, my friend who was sick is 95% recovered. She’s a young person who is very healthy and got pretty sick. Someone who is more at risk likely would have been hospitalized.
                Glad she's doing better.

                Originally posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor View Post
                Peanut, I’m sorry if you felt as though I was confrontational. I thought you might have a solution.
                Many western states are taking a staggered approach in May, such as opening non-essential businesses with social distancing measures, but continuing to not allow mass gatherings.
                You, confrontational? Not at all.

                I wish I did have a solution. Would anyone listen if I did?

                Originally posted by Rastic View Post
                I agree about your point of doctors but even Fauci has made some head scratching decisions. While advocating the 6' social distancing model which is more than reasonable, he essentially said Tinder hook-ups are ok so long as you know there is inherent risk. I was like, seriously? You've got to be kidding me. That undermines the necessity of social distancing and stay at home orders. If it must be then it must always be. That's what the inconsistencies are confusing and frustrating to people. Maybe those inconsistent measurers make belief i what some might describe as far fetched or a hoax more believable... I dunno

                Hopefully soon we'll all be able to look back and remember this time as a thing of the past.
                I agree with the inconsistencies. The CDC changed their minds about 3 times on hydroxychloroquine and it wasn't because of new information (because there hasn't been any). It was more like they were being influenced by a certain group. The mask situation I kind of understand.
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                Comment


                • Originally posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
                  Just to clarify, you’re saying it was justified to summons 15 people and arrest one person outside a synagogue during a funeral?

                  Can you think of another way the police could handle that situation?
                  Probably, but I know here in Denver they have ticketed people who have been issued multiple warnings. Don't know the situation about the funeral. Maybe they were warned, maybe there were specific instructions not to have gatherings. I do know have seen people disregarding stay at home rules to protest the stay at home order. Some people just don't want to follow rules if they don't think they fit them. It is what it is.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
                    I didn’t say small church, I said small group. How do you limit the number of people in a liquor store, grocery store or big box warehouse store? By allowing so many into the store at a time. The stores, at least where I’m at have tape on the floor to help people know the proper distance waiting in line. They’ve added arrows to help people flow one way through aisles.

                    Is it not possible for churches do the same thing? Do you not believe churches can take the same precautions? If you allow fewer people into a church, like they do at Costco, a church could have more services to accommodate their members with fewer people.

                    It’s fascinating to see the efforts made to justify “essential” activities, but churches must remain closed. People must not work. Magically the risk of infection and/or spreading the virus disappears when going to Costco or a liquor store. Don’t dare hold a drive in church service, it’s dangerous.
                    Well, I guess if you don't want to have your democratically elected officials not make rules or laws to protect people because it is inconvenient, vote for new people. There are some states where there are much looser restrictions despite others deriding those officials for their lack of action. There's no perfect way, and there will always be people who are on the other side of the fence. I believe these Governors are trying to do the best they can in a very surreal situation.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
                      Have you ever been to Total Beverage? Or Fat Dog Liquor in Texas? Have you ever been to a Virginia ABC store on payday? There’s more than a few people in those stores. I’ve been in a Total Beverage store more crowded than Costco.

                      Do you not think a church can limit the number of people attending per service? And add more services per day? When a church in Mississippi had a drive in service where families remained parked in their cars while the pastor gave his sermon, how is that harming anyone? State police came and broke up the service. In Kentucky they had a similar service. State police showed up and took down license plate numbers. Afterward they served quarantine notices to people who attended the service.

                      There is no justification for stripping people of their right to assemble in that manner. It’s draconian and does nothing to protect people from Coronavirus.

                      It’s quite sad to see people justify such measures.
                      I stand by my point that churches tend to be much more crowded than liquor stores. The more opportunities for people to gather in large quantities, the more opportunity for social distancing practices to be followed incorrectly. That is how the spread increases and how more people die.

                      I brought up how keeping liquor stores open prevents an increase in crime and additional strain on our healthcare system. I don't believe that keeping places of worship open provides that same prevention.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Bronco51 View Post
                        Well, I guess if you don't want to have your democratically elected officials not make rules or laws to protect people because it is inconvenient, vote for new people. There are some states where there are much looser restrictions despite others deriding those officials for their lack of action. There's no perfect way, and there will always be people who are on the other side of the fence. I believe these Governors are trying to do the best they can in a very surreal situation.
                        Elected officials aren’t given the power to overrule Constitutional rights. Individuals aren’t required to elect new officials to have rights. Trying to do your best is admirable, but not an the expense of violating civil rights in the name of a pandemic.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
                          Elected officials aren’t given the power to overrule Constitutional rights. Individuals aren’t required to elect new officials to have rights. Trying to do your best is admirable and appreciated, but not an the expense of violating civil rights.
                          Nobody is saying they can't worship though. Just not in groups...yet. I, like many, watched Easter Service online with my family all over the country on Zoom. Was it how I wanted to spend that day..no. But I know it's not permanent.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by SecondsAway131 View Post
                            I stand by my point that churches tend to be much more crowded than liquor stores. The more opportunities for people to gather in large quantities, the more opportunity for social distancing practices to be followed incorrectly. That is how the spread increases and how more people die.

                            I brought up how keeping liquor stores open prevents an increase in crime and additional strain on our healthcare system. I don't believe that keeping places of worship open provides that same prevention.
                            If social distancing is implemented in a church, how is that any different than social distancing in a liquor store? Or a Costco for that matter?

                            How is that you get to determine a church isn’t essential to one person, while some other activity is essential?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by SecondsAway131 View Post
                              America has a well-documented history of losing its cool when alcohol is taken away. The demand for alcohol will not decrease because the stores are closed. This opens up opportunity for illegal distilling, sales, and an increase in overall crime. There are also serious safety concerns of unregulated alcohol being mass distributed. I don't think current legislators want that madness on their hands.

                              Also, there are nearly 15 million people in the US that suffer from Alcohol Use Disorder. These are people that could possibly flood the healthcare system with withdrawal from lack of access.

                              Overall, I think closing liquor stores would create more problems than it would prevent.
                              You are exactly right. Cutting off alcohol would likely expose all sorts of evil.

                              Hey, if they stand 6 feet apart, not sure we have a problem.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Bronco51 View Post
                                Nobody is saying they can't worship though. Just not in groups...yet. I, like many, watched Easter Service online with my family all over the country on Zoom. Was it how I wanted to spend that day..no. But I know it's not permanent.
                                That was fine for your family. We actually did the same thing. What about people doing a drive up church service, with the pastor broadcasting into their cars via radio? What is wrong with that? How does sending the local police to breakup their service justified? What about people having drive up Communion? With a priest maintaining distance by using safety procedures?

                                There’s nothing temporary about giving up individual rights. Once you allow people to violate your rights you embolden them to do it again, based on their determination of an emergency.

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