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  • Peerless
    replied
    Originally posted by CanDB View Post

    I am not talking about politics, other than Fauci, the covid guru, standing up for himself. I could care less about the guy asking the questions. I will not comment on him because this isn't about him. This is about a foolish attempt to dismiss Fauci's important role. Those who listened to him about getting vaccinated were on the right side of history. Those who did not are using up a lot of medical resources.
    What a disaster. Let’s let some phony eye doctor who has zero experience working in infectious diseases have his five minutes of fame propagating lies when he doesn’t even understand the most basic science behind cell/viral biology.


    "Non-practicing Ophthalmologist (who was certified by a board he created because the other board hates him) tries to explain viral pathogen research to the world's foremost expert in viral pathogens."

    What's even more hilarious is this non-practicing Ophthalmologist is trying to make Fauci responsible for COVID. Literally, he said that Fauci was responsible for 4,000,000 deaths and will be held accountable.



    Last edited by Peerless; 07-21-2021, 02:07 PM.

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  • CanDB
    replied
    Originally posted by Hadez View Post

    Ivermectin been saving lives for half a year before I was able to get the vaccine. How many people died from Oct 2020 to May 2021?

    Fauci and the NIH recommended against using it until after a Senate hearing in Dec 8 and multiple court rulings forcing medical people to use the treatment. Even now the NIH is just neutral on the treatment.

    If Fauci was a hero he would have been open minded about multiple things he was trying to steer people down one single path.
    I disagree with you on Fauci. Like I have disagreed with you on various discussions in this thread. The pandemic was a horrific mystery presented to us, and for the first major portion, it was about adapting to the new world, and practicing safe measures. Once the vaccines arrived, the game changed. You take them unless you can not, and you get to move on, with some confidence.

    Mistakes were made, folks disobeyed, and so forth. But as far as I am concerned, the first major stage was all about respectfulness to one another, and being supportive of those in leadership roles who had science and medical expertise, and all those who sacrificed for us, including the front liners. This post vaccine stage is much simpler. Take it twice.



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  • Hadez
    replied
    Originally posted by CanDB View Post

    I am not talking about politics, other than Fauci, the covid guru, standing up for himself. I could care less about the guy asking the questions. I will not comment on him because this isn't about him. This is about a foolish attempt to dismiss Fauci's important role. Those who listened to him about getting vaccinated were on the right side of history. Those who did not are using up a lot of medical resources.
    Ivermectin been saving lives for half a year before I was able to get the vaccine. How many people died from Oct 2020 to May 2021?

    Fauci and the NIH recommended against using it until after a Senate hearing in Dec 8 and multiple court rulings forcing medical people to use the treatment. Even now the NIH is just neutral on the treatment.

    If Fauci was a hero he would have been open minded about multiple things he was trying to steer people down one single path.

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  • CanDB
    replied
    Originally posted by Hadez View Post

    I did not think we were going to talk about what happens in Congress. Since we are...did you see the people laying out the time lines of Fauci e-mails in Congress hearing? It is pretty obvious he has been lying about funding Gain of Function when looking at his emails as well as lying about there being no evidence to the lab leak after looking at his e-mails.

    I am not a fan of the "politician" you talking about but on the where there is smoke there is fire concept you seem to want to follow....there is not only smoke around Fauci the emails show fire.

    The guy doing the e-mail time lines...he has impressed me with his work on Covid19.
    I am not talking about politics, other than Fauci, the covid guru, standing up for himself. I could care less about the guy asking the questions. I will not comment on him because this isn't about him. This is about a foolish attempt to dismiss Fauci's important role. Those who listened to him about getting vaccinated were on the right side of history. Those who did not are using up a lot of medical resources.

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  • Peerless
    replied
    Originally posted by Hadez View Post
    I was not triggered. I was trying to assist you to get back on the the path I was trying to follow.

    You can not even follow the simple 2-3 sentences someone posts and represent the conversation accurately. What makes you think we should think you can follow the complex concepts of the science of Covid19?

    You seem to think my third statement was my first statement so not sure how to talk apples to apples with someone who can not even follow a conversation on a forum that is easy to go back and reference....but to repeat what I think you read before on my actual first statement


    I am not going to respond to you until you start putting effort into having a good faith conversation without getting emotional and making assumptions. You been doing to me repeatedly in this topic imo.
    Hadez, post #2777
    I do not want to say anything anti vaccine but the spike protein is dangerous...if there is any one thing people should go in deep on it is researching the various things Covid19.
    Peerless, post #2778
    Do you have any source with data - specifically scientific data to support this?
    Hadez, post #2780 (in replying to CanDB who was basically asking the same question I was)
    Once again I am not going to say anything negative about the vaccines. There is plenty of information out there if one wants to do their own homework. LA area is reporting 99% of people going to hospitals and dying are not vaccinated. I am team Pfizer.

    Beyond that are we trying to argue the spike protein in general is dangerous? Guess tell me a science source you trust and I will look and see what they say about it.
    CanDB, post #2781 (shortened version)
    Peerless and I are asking the same question. What source do you have? Because on the surface it's comments like that which give non vaccinated folks more ammunition to not get vaccinated, even without evidence.
    Hadez, post #2782 (replying to CanDB)
    So you do not think the Spike Protein is dangerous? Why exactly do you think Covid19 is causing the Pandemic?

    Again tell me a science source you trust and I am sure I can find something there about the Spike Protein and how is wrecking havoc on people in the Pandemic.
    Peerless, post #2788 (replying to Hadez previous two posts)
    False claims about the toxicity of spike proteins from COVID-19 vaccination often misinterpret studies, and fail to take into account how spike proteins from COVID-19 vaccination behave differently than the spike proteins from natural COVID-19 infection.
    Resource: https://health-desk.org/articles/wha...id-19-vaccines



    There is your timeline, that you still can't seem to grasp. And instead of acknowledging that research and study on spike proteins, you went on another tangent in post #2811 asking an irrational question for evidence on if the COVID vaccine is safe in two, three, or ten years down the line.

    --------

    So instead of calling me out for not following a simple 2-3 sentences, and claiming that I'm making assumptions - I think you're the one who needs to perform a review - without emotions and without a single approach perspective.

    You asked a question, gave a task, and I responded.

    If you seriously still can't figure that out, I can understand how confused, misguided, and lost you are in the grand scheme of things relating to this pandemic... And Hadez, that is a comment I'm making without emotion OR assumption.


    This is my FINAL reply to you on the subject of spike proteins. I have wasted enough time trying to educate you while constantly trying to re-focus your attention to the subject.
    Last edited by Peerless; 07-21-2021, 10:31 AM.

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  • Hadez
    replied
    Originally posted by CanDB View Post
    Good for Fauci...standing up for himself yesterday, as he should, when confronted by an ill-advised "politician".
    I did not think we were going to talk about what happens in Congress. Since we are...did you see the people laying out the time lines of Fauci e-mails in Congress hearing? It is pretty obvious he has been lying about funding Gain of Function when looking at his emails as well as lying about there being no evidence to the lab leak after looking at his e-mails.

    I am not a fan of the "politician" you talking about but on the where there is smoke there is fire concept you seem to want to follow....there is not only smoke around Fauci the emails show fire.

    The guy doing the e-mail time lines...he has impressed me with his work on Covid19.
    Last edited by Hadez; 07-21-2021, 09:26 AM.

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  • Hadez
    replied
    Originally posted by Peerless View Post

    Larger text size AND bold? You're getting all triggered here cowboy. Step back, and take a deep breath. I'll help clarify.
    I was not triggered. I was trying to assist you to get back on the the path I was trying to follow.

    You can not even follow the simple 2-3 sentences someone posts and represent the conversation accurately. What makes you think we should think you can follow the complex concepts of the science of Covid19?

    You seem to think my third statement was my first statement so not sure how to talk apples to apples with someone who can not even follow a conversation on a forum that is easy to go back and reference....but to repeat what I think you read before on my actual first statement

    Originally posted by Hadez View Post

    First I apologize for not wording my first comment better that seemed to trigger you.
    I am not going to respond to you until you start putting effort into having a good faith conversation without getting emotional and making assumptions. You been doing to me repeatedly in this topic imo.


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  • CanDB
    replied
    Good for Fauci...standing up for himself yesterday, as he should, when confronted by an ill-advised "politician".

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  • Peerless
    replied
    Originally posted by Hadez View Post

    To repeat what you quoted as my "Your first and original question"



    YOU ARE WRONG

    This was the first comment I made that you quoted.



    This still appears as you quoted. Btw I intentionally did not reply to you. I knew you would do this.

    I then replied to ANOTHER poster...NOT YOU



    I then replied to ANOTHER poster...NOT YOU



    Now I guess the only thing I wonder....were you intentionally trying to misrepresent what I was saying or was that an error on your part?


    edit - I was going to hold back on this part but I want to say it. Let me know when you want to start accurately commenting on things.
    Larger text size AND bold? You're getting all triggered here cowboy. Step back, and take a deep breath. I'll help clarify.

    First of all: I could care less if you quoted me, or CanDB.

    Your original statement whether you are trying to avoid at being anti vaccine (even though you literally just wrote that in your first comment you were speaking against the vaccines) was about how dangerous the spike protein is.

    Something tells me you didn't know the difference between a spike protein in a vaccine, verses a virus. Your general statement of the spike protein being "dangerous" was inconsistent and invalid, as you were only looking at the spike protein OF a virus. It was a pretty weak and trash comment that you used to stir the pot.

    You then asked a question and gave a task of finding a scientific source on the spike protein. I took it upon myself to complete the task you asked, and gave an answer to the message board. This is an internet forum, is it not? Can I not chime in on a conversation? Whether the task was aimed at CanDB or myself, we both were in on the same conversation.

    I actually provided you some clarity of how a spike protein in a vaccine works, verses a spike protein in a virus. I provided information on why the vaccine (with the SP's) are safe. I provided a scientific source of research, in which YOU asked for. I basically was CanDB, and gave the answer you were looking for.

    You STILL seem that you don't want to acknowledge that, which is fine - because now I know that YOU know your first claim of the spike protein being dangerous was a poor comment due to (probable) incomplete knowledge... or was it?

    Don't you see what you did? You took spike proteins - and you tried to make them out to be dangerous in all forms; False information is what you spewed. You should be ashamed.

    But I can see how a statement in which you made - how it could cause panic and concern to somebody who blindly follows and listens to advice from "knowledgeable" internet folk without doing the dirty work and researching on their own. "Well if he said that spike proteins are dangerous and causing havoc, and that vaccines have them too, why would I want to take that... they are BAD for you!!"


    As you said - now I guess the only thing I wonder... well the only thing I know, is that your original statement on spike proteins was a literal misrepresentation and false statement that hopefully you will acknowledge was an error on YOUR part - whether it was focused to me or CanDB, or some non member viewing this forum.

    ?
    Last edited by Peerless; 07-20-2021, 10:11 PM.

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  • Hadez
    replied
    Originally posted by CanDB View Post
    We are lucky to be moving ahead. Our rates for one dose and fully vaccinated are both ahead of the US, which is kind of special given we had a slower start due to supply. A number of our provinces are reducing restrictions, And now our PM states that fully vaccinated Americans can cross the border starting August 9th.

    Moving forward...
    Los Angeles County is going back to indoor mask mandate for everyone.

    Local news channel (KTLA) said this morning if California was still using the color tier system two numbers being tracked then would put LA County in the Red Tier (2nd worst). I have not checked the numbers myself. Sometimes the news will focus on the total numbers and not look at numbers per population. It is more dramatic to focus on the big numbers.

    Los Angeles has a fully vaccinated rate of 62% and 1 dose of 69.9%

    I have herd multiple people who are not vaccinated question the effectiveness of the vaccines if that many people are vaccinated and Los Angeles needs to go back to mask mandates. I did repeat to them how effective the vaccine was against death and hospitalization. Even the less than 1% vaccinated people who die (approx 700 I herd) are apparently very old and of weak health per sources I trust.
    Last edited by Hadez; 07-20-2021, 07:06 PM.

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  • Hadez
    replied
    Originally posted by Peerless View Post

    Wait wait wait - Your first and original question to me (in which you later on edited after I quoted and replied to you by the way...)



    And I answered your question. There are different mechanisms of how a spike protein in a virus works, verses a spike protein in a vaccine. That WAS your question, was it not?

    As for your question about data on the vaccine two years, five years, ten years down the line if it has any major side affects is irrational at the least. Of course I can't provide data on something that hasn't happened yet? That question is almost as baseless as someone foolishly saying something like "the virus is just going to go away" on its own.

    So to answer your question (since you seemed to have a hard time initially replying to mine): I don't have an answer. But I do know from reading literature and research that besides everything about previous mRNA vaccines being safe, and side effects usually showing up quickly, there isn’t really any biologic plausibility for mRNA to do any damage. While the "long term effects" for an individual vaccine isn't able to be studied before roll out (duh), our understanding of vaccination history and immunology generally fills in those gaps. It's the short-term reactions that we're most concerned with.

    To break it down even further:
    1. Unlike other vaccines, there isn’t any Covid (killed/attenuated) in this vaccine. All you have is mRNA data, which are instructions to make a protein. In this case, this is the spike protein. Normally mRNA is made in the nucleus and goes out to the ribosomes where proteins are made, and then the mRNA is degraded. Here we are just bringing the mRNA to the ribosome from outside. mRNA doesn’t have the capability of entering the nucleus and making changes to the DNA, where there would be potential to do damage.
    2. mRNA is super unstable and degrades really quickly (in a matter of hours). That’s why the Pfizer vaccine has to be held at such a low temperature, because otherwise the mRNA would degrade and be ineffective. That short time window + the lack of its ability to enter the nucleus really rules out any risk of significant side effects outside of allergic reactions.
    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ines/mrna.html

    And I take offense to your last statement on how I'm not putting much effort into seeing both sides. Just because I'm a large advocate for interventions based on science, doesn't mean I'm not putting effort into YOUR side or YOUR beliefs. I have seen first hand what happens when you don't follow the scientific recommendations. I - believed in masks, social distancing, and taking the vaccine.

    I have worked with many COVID + patients who were sedated/paralyzed with more tubes and lines coming out of them than you would ever imagine. I have seen people who have come in without being vaccinated and had decompensated to the point where they were BEGGING to breathe, as we rushed to shove a breathing tube down their throat to live. I have been yelled at by families of COVID victims that we didn't do enough, or cared enough when literally - we were out of options. Before vaccines were out - I was putting my health on the line for the people not following the recommending guidelines - in which I then put my wife and family at risk at home.

    YOUR posts on this subject have made YOUR feelings clear on the issue. I have replied OFTEN to the side opposite of mine on during this pandemic; not not just with replies from my words I've written, but from factual data that I have repeatedly shared.... Data that somehow and someway gets ignored.

    Don't tell me I'm not putting much effort into seeing both sides. I have read it and researched it through my spare time. I've listened to doctors, scientist, and researchers (on BOTH fences - everything from hydroxychloroquine being pushed as a COVID cure along with herd immunity solving all the issues). And through my profession, I have seen what COVID can do to a person - how it has literally killed someone.
    To repeat what you quoted as my "Your first and original question"

    So you do not think the Spike Protein is dangerous? Why exactly do you think Covid19 is causing the Pandemic?

    Again tell me a science source you trust and I am sure I can find something there about the Spike Protein and how is wrecking havoc on people in the Pandemic.
    YOU ARE WRONG

    This was the first comment I made that you quoted.

    Originally posted by Hadez View Post

    I do not want to say anything anti vaccine but the spike protein is dangerous...if there is any one thing people should go in deep on it is researching the various things Covid19.
    This still appears as you quoted. Btw I intentionally did not reply to you. I knew you would do this.

    I then replied to ANOTHER poster...NOT YOU

    Originally posted by Hadez View Post

    Once again I am not going to say anything negative about the vaccines. There is plenty of information out there if one wants to do their own homework. LA area is reporting 99% of people going to hospitals and dying are not vaccinated. I am team Pfizer.


    Beyond that are we trying to argue the spike protein in general is dangerous? Guess tell me a science source you trust and I will look and see what they say about it.
    I then replied to ANOTHER poster...NOT YOU

    Originally posted by Hadez View Post

    So you do not think the Spike Protein is dangerous? Why exactly do you think Covid19 is causing the Pandemic?

    Again tell me a science source you trust and I am sure I can find something there about the Spike Protein and how is wrecking havoc on people in the Pandemic.
    Now I guess the only thing I wonder....were you intentionally trying to misrepresent what I was saying or was that an error on your part?


    edit - I was going to hold back on this part but I want to say it. Let me know when you want to start accurately commenting on things.
    Last edited by Hadez; 07-20-2021, 07:08 PM.

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  • CanDB
    replied
    We are lucky to be moving ahead. Our rates for one dose and fully vaccinated are both ahead of the US, which is kind of special given we had a slower start due to supply. A number of our provinces are reducing restrictions, And now our PM states that fully vaccinated Americans can cross the border starting August 9th.

    Moving forward...

    Leave a comment:


  • johnlimburg
    replied
    Originally posted by CanDB View Post

    To be clear, I agree that if the death rates decline, regardless of the type of infection, it is less worrisome. But my initial and ongoing focus has been on the cases, the trends, and the % cases that are linked to the unvaccinated. My basic belief is that, if not for the unvaccinated, the healthcare system would be almost down to normal caseload for this disease, and able to get back to taking care of all the non covid medical workload....like tests, procedures, and most important, surgeries. My goodness, the wait time where I live for hip surgery is excessive these days. My neighbour and my buddy both got hip surgery recently after long waits, and ONLY because of cancellation/postponements. And though I think hip surgery is very important, think of all the more serious surgeries that have been delayed or more likely, failed to be diagnosed....and yes, all the normal activities that would typically lead doctors to accelerate situations, like heart and cancer related symptoms. Those that waited too long for assessment due to hospital overload.

    The covid toll has been and continues to weigh down the healthcare world. And sadly, because it overloaded facilities/resources, it denied far too many people of necessary medical help, which resulted in further complications, and either more deaths or more severe long term disability.
    I guess that is the biggest fear of going with an approach like Singapore has announced they will be doing. I believe they won't be reporting on daily numbers, and are going to treat it as an everyday sickness moving forward. Singapore was widely praised early on during the pandemic as one of the best nations in their response measures, so it could be interesting to see what is in store for them over the next month or so, could be the blueprint in how to actually live in a Covid society, as opposed to wrapping up in cotton wool and hiding.

    Also, this hasn't really been a reality to date in Australia, with such low numbers and deaths, the fear has been there that it could happen, but the stress on the economy and workforce as a result of lockdowns has far outweighed any pressure on the health care system, that would be exclusive to here though I'd imagine. We are scheduled to leave this extremely harsh lockdown next week on Friday, but the lockdowns simply are not working this time around. Case numbers have peaked, and they have remained steady, so it will interesting to see what happens in the near future.

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  • CanDB
    replied
    Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post

    That is fine, it isn't that big of a deal, just thought it was fair in the discussion. I didn't see you as being rude either, I just thought it was conveniently ignored due to it not actually lining up with the doom and gloom story line being pushed around this Delta variant, which upon further digging, it doesn't.
    To be clear, I agree that if the death rates decline, regardless of the type of infection, it is less worrisome. But my initial and ongoing focus has been on the cases, the trends, and the % cases that are linked to the unvaccinated. My basic belief is that, if not for the unvaccinated, the healthcare system would be almost down to normal caseload for this disease, and able to get back to taking care of all the non covid medical workload....like tests, procedures, and most important, surgeries. My goodness, the wait time where I live for hip surgery is excessive these days. My neighbour and my buddy both got hip surgery recently after long waits, and ONLY because of cancellation/postponements. And though I think hip surgery is very important, think of all the more serious surgeries that have been delayed or more likely, failed to be diagnosed....and yes, all the normal activities that would typically lead doctors to accelerate situations, like heart and cancer related symptoms. Those that waited too long for assessment due to hospital overload.

    The covid toll has been and continues to weigh down the healthcare world. And sadly, because it overloaded facilities/resources, it denied far too many people of necessary medical help, which resulted in further complications, and either more deaths or more severe long term disability.

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  • johnlimburg
    replied
    Originally posted by CanDB View Post

    You remind me a bit of a friend who when contacting our group asks a number of questions in a simple post to the group, to which we very seldom respond to in entirety anymore, given we are basically moving on to another story. Haha...one of my other buds recently told him that there's this new thing he should check in to....the internet. Sure, we don't all respond to every post we make, so it is not really rude, because we all do it. That's a friendship situation, though once in a while I think we could do a little better. More seriously, maybe some questions are not so much questions but a form of affirmation, I do it. I make a point and ask a question, but my question is really just confirming my point.

    You sound pretty bright, and I think we would do much better face to face. In some of these threads I do not always follow up on every question directed toward me, as I'm sure you don't, given I feel like there is a lengthy process in some cases to ever possibly conclude on a topic, especially like this one. I may have put you in that category without much else on my mind, and if so, sorry.

    As for good discussion, I am old school in some ways, because there are some topics that seem pretty clear to me, and I guess when others keep at me, at some point I get a bit uninterested. I believe strongly about some basics about covid, not necessarily repetitive lockdowns, but wise living combined with respectfulness towards others. And I now believe strongly...that being vaccinated is 100% the right thing to do. Others will poke away, as they have done from day one, but maybe it just seems too simple to me now. It's a 2 + 2 = 4 situation. No conspiracy theory, or partisan based argument will get through anymore. It's become basic fact. Vaccinate.

    So if I did not respond to your question about deaths specifically it's because it may have reminded me of my friend, who asks that extra question or two that we prefer he looks up. But that's me. So not trying to be rude to you.

    As for Canadian authoritarianism, I don't see us being governed quite like that. I think we have been slow and cautious overall, but even so, each province had their ability to put a twist on their territories. Mostly I agree with the approach in Canada though, but had some issues with our local province's approach with regard to the 2nd and 3rd waves. We were literally the worst province/state in terms of basic covid stats for a period of time, after being almost covid free last summer. But the vaccines here have rolled out more effectively, since we received ample supply, and our vaccination rates locally and nationally are good. For example, Manitoba has a one dose stat of 77.4% and a fully vaccinated stat of 61.1% for fully vaccinated (for all eligible residents). The fully vaccinated stat has been rising over a per cent a day for some time, though it of course will slow down as it approaches the one dose level.

    Anyway...be cool.
    That is fine, it isn't that big of a deal, just thought it was fair in the discussion. I didn't see you as being rude either, I just thought it was conveniently ignored due to it not actually lining up with the doom and gloom story line being pushed around this Delta variant, which upon further digging, it doesn't.

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