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  • Passengers, this is your captain speaking. During that bout of turbulence 15 - 20% of you lost your jobs, but it's ok. We'll be landing in 2-weeks from some point in the future. During this time the shelter in your seats light will remain on.

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      • Originally posted by Rastic View Post
        Passengers, this is your captain speaking. During that bout of turbulence 15 - 20% of you lost your jobs, but it's ok. We'll be landing in 2-weeks from some point in the future. During this time the shelter in your seats light will remain on.
        My point was simply that good, consistent leadership and solid info will get us through this. I know I never said "It's ok", or if that's something else completely.

        For anyone who may read this a certain way, do not make me out to be uncaring of the economics. Just as I would not want anyone to be uncaring about the loss of life, the extreme nastiness of dying without your loved ones nearby, and as I understand, the permanent damage that some will physically endure.

        Good, consistent leadership is the critical point of my little example.

        FTR...if in Canada our PM and the Premiers and the Mayors and other authorities were all on different pages, that would get messy. That's my point.
        Last edited by CanDB; 04-23-2020, 10:34 AM.

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        • Switzerland looked at the actual science and decided to re-open schools.

          Wilfred Reilly’s analysis showed there is no difference in cases or deaths in states with lock down “shelter in place” vs states that implemented social distancing.

          Meanwhile another 4.4 million people filed unemployment claims last week brining the total to 26+ million people lost jobs in the last 5 weeks.

          Funny thing, notice how the “science” was used to drive the narrative to lock down, but very few people are bringing the new data to the forefront?

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          • Looking more and more like a social experiment than an actual crisis.
            My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
            You Mad Bro?
            Don’t Be A Mean Girl

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            • Originally posted by broncolee View Post
              Looking more and more like a social experiment than an actual crisis.
              The health crisis was in a few hotspots, New York City the worst case. The problem is that we continue operating as if we don’t have any data. It was one thing to overreact initially because nobody knew what would happen. The modelers predicted 2.2 million deaths and nobody could risk ignoring that prediction. However, now we’re getting data that tells us how we can adapt with a more targeted approach.

              We have a real economic crisis destroying the livelihoods of 26 million people and counting (conservative number based on unemployment claims). There are thousands of people being denied “non-essential” medical procedures - for example someone suffering because they need hip surgery and can’t get it done.

              As Derek Wolfe said, “There’s something deeper is going on here...”

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              • Originally posted by CanDB View Post
                My point was simply that good, consistent leadership and solid info will get us through this. I know I never said "It's ok", or if that's something else completely.

                For anyone who may read this a certain way, do not make me out to be uncaring of the economics. Just as I would not want anyone to be uncaring about the loss of life, the extreme nastiness of dying without your loved ones nearby, and as I understand, the permanent damage that some will physically endure.

                Good, consistent leadership is the critical point of my little example.

                FTR...if in Canada our PM and the Premiers and the Mayors and other authorities were all on different pages, that would get messy. That's my point.
                Not really. The provinces have the ultimate authority over everything except the border. If Manitoba realized that they don't have the issues that Quebec and Ontario do, and want to reopen, it's up to the Premier on whether they do or not. The PM can't stop them outside of using the Health Measures Act, and it's very unlikely he would use that.

                As for Canada and Covid in general, 79% of the deaths (as of yesterday) can be traced to longterm health facilities. In Alberta it's 67% (44 out of 66), the threat isn't severe to the general public, that's why we should be focusing on protecting LTCF residents.

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                • Originally posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
                  The health crisis was in a few hotspots, New York City the worst case. The problem is that we continue operating as if we don’t have any data. It was one thing to overreact initially because nobody knew what would happen. The modelers predicted 2.2 million deaths and nobody could risk ignoring that prediction. However, now we’re getting data that tells us how we can adapt with a more targeted approach.

                  We have a real economic crisis destroying the livelihoods of 26 million people and counting (conservative number based on unemployment claims). There are thousands of people being denied “non-essential” medical procedures - for example someone suffering because they need hip surgery and can’t get it done.

                  As Derek Wolfe said, “There’s something deeper is going on here...”
                  Who'd have thought that when you have over 8 million people living in close quarters and 5.6 million people riding the subway each day, that things would spread quickly?!....

                  In Calgary we've got a very large city area wise, (the metro area is just under 2000 Sq miles) and a relatively small population (about 1.4 million in Calgary metro) or 706 people per square mile. We've got the majority of the cases for our province, and the people in charge keep using New York City as an example for how things could get out of control here. Meanwhile they refuse to acknowledge the majority of the cases in the area have come at Long Term Health Facilities and at one meat processing plant. And they also refuse to acknowledge that New York's 27,751 people per square mile is much different than our 706.

                  Everyone claims to be following the science, but really they're following the fear. People are so scared of dying that they've decided to quit letting us live.

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                  • Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post
                    Not really. The provinces have the ultimate authority over everything except the border. If Manitoba realized that they don't have the issues that Quebec and Ontario do, and want to reopen, it's up to the Premier on whether they do or not. The PM can't stop them outside of using the Health Measures Act, and it's very unlikely he would use that.

                    As for Canada and Covid in general, 79% of the deaths (as of yesterday) can be traced to longterm health facilities. In Alberta it's 67% (44 out of 66), the threat isn't severe to the general public, that's why we should be focusing on protecting LTCF residents.
                    Thanks for the additional info. But I would suggest that if The PM was sending out different messages then the Premiers (or vice versa), it would cause some confusion. We listen to the PM when he speaks about the situation, and we also listen to our Premier. If they had philosophical differences, it would not serve us well. Consistency helps in these times.

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                    • Originally posted by CanDB View Post
                      Thanks for the additional info. But I would suggest that if The PM was sending out different messages then the Premiers (or vice versa), it would cause some confusion. We listen to the PM when he speaks about the situation, and we also listen to our Premier. If they had philosophical differences, it would not serve us well. Consistency helps in these times.
                      There are very different messages coming out right now. Our Premier isn't going to follow what the PM says. Nor are the Premiers of Saskatchewan, Ontario, Quebec or BC. All of whom are discussing lifting restrictions which is something the PM hasn't talked about.

                      Without getting political, lets just leave it with there not being harmony between the groups.

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                      • Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post
                        Not really. The provinces have the ultimate authority over everything except the border. If Manitoba realized that they don't have the issues that Quebec and Ontario do, and want to reopen, it's up to the Premier on whether they do or not. The PM can't stop them outside of using the Health Measures Act, and it's very unlikely he would use that.

                        As for Canada and Covid in general, 79% of the deaths (as of yesterday) can be traced to longterm health facilities. In Alberta it's 67% (44 out of 66), the threat isn't severe to the general public, that's why we should be focusing on protecting LTCF residents.
                        Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post
                        Who'd have thought that when you have over 8 million people living in close quarters and 5.6 million people riding the subway each day, that things would spread quickly?!....

                        In Calgary we've got a very large city area wise, (the metro area is just under 2000 Sq miles) and a relatively small population (about 1.4 million in Calgary metro) or 706 people per square mile. We've got the majority of the cases for our province, and the people in charge keep using New York City as an example for how things could get out of control here. Meanwhile they refuse to acknowledge the majority of the cases in the area have come at Long Term Health Facilities and at one meat processing plant. And they also refuse to acknowledge that New York's 27,751 people per square mile is much different than our 706.

                        Everyone claims to be following the science, but really they're following the fear. People are so scared of dying that they've decided to quit letting us live.
                        It’s very similar with respect to authority here in the U.S. - each state has the power to determine how to proceed. The Federal guidelines for re-opening serve as a framework with three phases. States can determine how they want to proceed, either adhering to the guidelines, taking their own approach and/or combination of both.

                        Similar patterns have been observed here with nursing homes and assisted living facilities. Although having more data will be helpful as time goes on, we need to use what data we have to determine how to adjust and adapt. We can’t wait for some point in the future when we’ll have all the answers. Assess the data, adjust and move forward. It makes no sense to be locked down in a place with relatively few cases by pointing to New York City.

                        The data tells us there is no real difference between the states with draconian lock downs vs those with moderate social distancing policies.

                        Meanwhile we are destroying the economy, not just in the U.S. Economics are linked across the globe and especially in North America. We better get serious about opening for business or we’re going to experience a lot more suffering.

                        People cannot stay home forever. Producing the goods and services required to keep things going requires more than Zoom calls. Sure, a lot of things can be done over video. But you can’t do everything from within the walls of your home.

                        The people carrying the burden are going to wake up one day and say, “Hey wait a minute, why do I have to keep working so everyone else can stay at home?”. That’s one of the reasons a meat packing plant in Iowa closed down yesterday.

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                        • Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post
                          There are very different messages coming out right now. Our Premier isn't going to follow what the PM says. Nor are the Premiers of Saskatchewan, Ontario, Quebec or BC. All of whom are discussing lifting restrictions which is something the PM hasn't talked about.

                          Without getting political, lets just leave it with there not being harmony between the groups.
                          And yes, without being political, that is what I was alluding to. Consistent message. If not consistent, within the same overall entity, it is confusing to the folks. It is hard enough already to determine what makes most sense to many of us, worse however if we get conflicting views from the same folks who lead. Again, thanks for the info you provided.

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                          • Originally posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
                            It’s very similar with respect to authority here in the U.S. - each state has the power to determine how to proceed. The Federal guidelines for re-opening serve as a framework with three phases. States can determine how they want to proceed, either adhering to the guidelines, taking their own approach and/or combination of both.

                            Similar patterns have been observed here with nursing homes and assisted living facilities. Although having more data will be helpful as time goes on, we need to use what data we have to determine how to adjust and adapt. We can’t wait for some point in the future when we’ll have all the answers. Assess the data, adjust and move forward. It makes no sense to be locked down in a place with relatively few cases by pointing to New York City.

                            The data tells us there is no real difference between the states with draconian lock downs vs those with moderate social distancing policies.

                            Meanwhile we are destroying the economy, not just in the U.S. Economics are linked across the globe and especially in North America. We better get serious about opening for business or we’re going to experience a lot more suffering.

                            People cannot stay home forever. Producing the goods and services required to keep things going requires more than Zoom calls. Sure, a lot of things can be done over video. But you can’t do everything from within the walls of your home.

                            The people carrying the burden are going to wake up one day and say, “Hey wait a minute, why do I have to keep working so everyone else can stay at home?”. That’s one of the reasons a meat packing plant in Iowa closed down yesterday.
                            That's one of my biggest concerns right there...geopolitical upheaval wrought by millions of disaffected people (many of whom stand to lose all that they have). Extreme political ideologies (with potentially devastating long-term ramifications) are born in such environments. Thankfully, we have ample protections against political extremism as secured by the U.S. Constitution (other countries, perhaps not so much)...but malevolent factions peddling "revolution" can and do spread their poison. Returning to some semblance of normalcy without overloading medical resources in the process, is crucial.

                            I agree with an incremental targeted approach; test and evaluate results while constantly updating models. Make changes quickly and accordingly, as necessary. Let's hope this works, for everyone's sake.
                            To infinity...and beyond.

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                            • Originally posted by Rastic View Post
                              I really sympathize with you. I have family that is in a similar situation and I would not want them (or you!) exposed when it could have been avoided. I also have a number of family and friends in medicine and, like many here I would expect, know people whose livelihood has been seriously affected.

                              Nobody wants this. It's a minefield where ever we turn and we should not take needless risks. That said, I think there are some things we can do without overdoing it - ease in some areas while not in others, all the while protecting those who absolutely need to be protected.

                              Fan's idea of speed limits made me pause. It's kind of a good analogy in a way. While there are some who are ready to get out and move, that's fine, but there are others who for certain need to go slow and do not need added risk from others. Somehow I think there is a path to be found.

                              The article by the orthopedic surgeon was eyeopening to me. I am sure there is rational somewhere but I got the feeling, in his case and in his area at least, it was a one-size-fits-all approach.

                              So, yeah, this thread has no easy answers but we do have some good company :thumb:
                              Thank you. Prayers to your family and friends.

                              Originally posted by Peanut View Post
                              Agree. As you know, I'm in the vulnerable group. I feel safer the way things are right now. Doesn't mean that I don't feel for the people going through financial situations. I've been there.

                              I'm not talking about someone I know or a family member. I'm talking about me. About me getting the virus (even with precautions) and me dying. Yes, it's personal.

                              Jobs VS death. I guess I'm optimistic enough that I'm hoping the financial situations can and will be overcome. I have my own views about death. Let's just say I would like to enjoy life for a lot longer.

                              As I mentioned before in this thread, there are no easy answers.

                              I read the article. I'm surprised some of the surgeries are considered not essential. I don't know where they get the guidelines (did I miss it?), but it should be changed.
                              I was going to add more to this conversation, but I really can't say it any better than what I did in the post above.
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                              • Originally posted by Lumiere View Post
                                That's one of my biggest concerns right there...geopolitical upheaval wrought by millions of disaffected people (many of whom stand to lose all that they have). Extreme political ideologies (with potentially devastating long-term ramifications) are born in such environments. Thankfully, we have ample protections against political extremism as secured by the U.S. Constitution (other countries, perhaps not so much)...but malevolent factions peddling "revolution" can and do spread their poison. Returning to some semblance of normalcy without overloading medical resources in the process, is crucial.

                                I agree with an incremental targeted approach; test and evaluate results while constantly updating models. Make changes quickly and accordingly, as necessary. Let's hope this works, for everyone's sake.
                                Two things...

                                1) I am not sure if you and I have sounded similar along the way on this specific topic, though I respect your views on pretty much everything. But even if we have sounded a bit different, what you just said is exactly how I feel. So maybe I am not communicating properly.
                                2) Not aimed towards you GMan, but as for science. I just think that, if a person likes to believe that medical experts know more than the layperson re: a virus, and if a person is hoping that a treatment/cure is possible, thanks to scientists, and if a person thinks a vaccine might be helpful, and discovered by scientists....then I believe science is a significant part of the solution.

                                :2cents:

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