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  • johnlimburg
    replied
    Originally posted by Peerless View Post

    If anything has happened to these public officials, especially Fauci - he has become a fringe target of mostly the people who disagree with him, and our current administration.

    Remember - this is a guy who has served his role as the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases since the mid 80's. He has served seven different presidents, all of different parties. He's had to lead the team against HIV/Aids, Ebola, Zikia, COVID, etc.

    The whipping boy process all started back during the hydroxychloroquine days of the pandemic. Remember? "Experts" kept praising how the antimalarial drug would prevent and treat COVID, while reputable scientists and researchers found that it wasn't the answer to the virus. Add that, and the fact that Fauci also been on record multiple times to wear masks, socially distance, and be safe - while the 2x impeached former president wanted the "quick fix" hydroxychloroquine drug and to open up America back to it's usual state during a pandemic - OF COURSE Fauci became the #1 target.

    Hey, whatever happened to that drug? I never hear of it anymore.... I wonder WHY???

    It also didn't help that mainstream media and several journalists, especially as it pertains to the White House press corps, purposely tried to get Fauci to contradict the former administration during his many press briefings. As I wrote earlier - People are still angry from March 2020 when Fauci appeared on ABC where he told people there’s no reason to be wearing a masks. A time during the COVID pandemic that we were all still learning about the actual virus.


    That quote from Fauci is a familiar echo to what many others argued at that time, including the U.S. Surgeon General, the World Health Organization, and The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Of course, the views on that statement from most organizations changed, as more information became available about the disease.

    Literally - think of all of that. Here is a job that you've been doing for decades. You've been in this position for all of these years because you're good at what you do. You give your interventions and rationale based off of science and the data. You give newer interventions and measures based off of science and the newer research and data to help contain a pandemic, and someone who has no clue is telling you you're wrong, and to do the opposite. How ludicrous.

    Literally, let's just crap on all of the scientists and researchers for being wrong because some people just can't or won't understand that recommendations change as understanding of situations changes. It's that simple. There are no 'fan boys' of Fauci - there are fan boys of science, and the process of it.
    The health advice in Australia at this time last year was the same, we completely stopped covid without masks, but the harsh lockdowns were followed and we were praised highly around the world for our handling of the outbreak. Obviously, health advice will change and update, and picking on that one aspect is quite petty and pathetic, no doubt. But I think in acknowledging that also, do you think someone in such a high-paid position, who has such influence and such a voice should not have his actions and remarks evaluated and assessed ? If not, and no questions can be asked reasonably, then I think taking that stance is just as counterproductive as the ones on the other side you and Can are rightfully denouncing.

    I also think you are very far off on saying that Fauci has not become a fanboy for some out there, he can do no wrong in some people's eyes to the point where they would ignore certain actions just because, well, science, don't question anything, science. Honestly, even being a "fab boy for science" is a pretty strange thing to be, or I guess even say, come on. We will acknowledge when science gets it wrong as it is part of the process in retrospect, I agree that is fair, but at the drop of each announcement will take anything we are told as concrete information and the possibility of being any different or having some reasonable questions to ask is a conspiracy ? Please. If anything the last year has shown us in my opinion, no one who is so set on either side of any argument is going to be right 100% of the time, and people need to be more willing to hear people out either in the approach to educate, or debate.

    Leave a comment:


  • johnlimburg
    replied
    Originally posted by CanDB View Post

    I do not know all the details but what I read/hear is that Delta is the most contagious form of covid yet, and unvaccinated people are most at risk.
    So you are not sure on the details, but will constantly repeat the narrative that it is more dangerous, but have no idea if the statistics which I have seen you use so often actually support this new stance you have adopted ? What does it take for you to jump on board then ? From looking around it appears that the scientific community is actually acknowledging that it is less deadly but more contagious. The reason used appears to be that it is because the Delta strain is infecting younger people, and they are better equipped to handle it, therefore not as deadly. I understand health advice will always fall to the side of caution, it should, but again, you don't know if it isn't as deadly, it appears the statistics indicate it isn't, yet the narrative is being pushed hard and repeated even in here by you, is beware the Delta, it is worse. I think the discussion around this when your locking people down for extended periods, in reference to Australia specifically, I don't know if the US is still locking communities down, deserves to happen.

    Leave a comment:


  • Peerless
    replied
    Originally posted by CanDB View Post
    That's the beauty of pure science, it does not care about politics....it cares about diligent attention to facts, solutions and giving us more knowledge one day to the next.
    I like this comment. :thumb:

    Leave a comment:


  • CanDB
    replied
    Originally posted by Peerless View Post

    If anything has happened to these public officials, especially Fauci - he has become a fringe target of mostly the people who disagree with him, and our current administration.

    Remember - this is a guy who has served his role as the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases since the mid 80's. He has served seven different presidents, all of different parties. He's had to lead the team against HIV/Aids, Ebola, Zikia, COVID, etc.

    The whipping boy process all started back during the hydroxychloroquine days of the pandemic. Remember? "Experts" kept praising how the antimalarial drug would prevent and treat COVID, while reputable scientists and researchers found that it wasn't the answer to the virus. Add that, and the fact that Fauci also been on record multiple times to wear masks, socially distance, and be safe - while the 2x impeached former president wanted the "quick fix" hydroxychloroquine drug and to open up America back to it's usual state during a pandemic - OF COURSE Fauci became the #1 target.

    Hey, whatever happened to that drug? I never hear of it anymore.... I wonder WHY???

    It also didn't help that mainstream media and several journalists, especially as it pertains to the White House press corps, purposely tried to get Fauci to contradict the former administration during his many press briefings. As I wrote earlier - People are still angry from March 2020 when Fauci appeared on ABC where he told people there’s no reason to be wearing a masks. A time during the COVID pandemic that we were all still learning about the actual virus.


    That quote from Fauci is a familiar echo to what many others argued at that time, including the U.S. Surgeon General, the World Health Organization, and The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Of course, the views on that statement from most organizations changed, as more information became available about the disease.

    Literally - think of all of that. Here is a job that you've been doing for decades. You've been in this position for all of these years because you're good at what you do. You give your interventions and rationale based off of science and the data. You give newer interventions and measures based off of science and the newer research and data to help contain a pandemic, and someone who has no clue is telling you you're wrong, and to do the opposite. How ludicrous.

    Literally, let's just crap on all of the scientists and researchers for being wrong because some people just can't or won't understand that recommendations change as understanding of situations changes. It's that simple. There are no 'fan boys' of Fauci - there are fan boys of science, and the process of it.
    Well said as usual Brent.

    It amazes me how perfect Fauci and the rest of the scientific world has to be to get the respect they deserve. It's not only unfair, given they are going with the very best info they have at every moment going forward (even while the virus re-engineers itself)...which is far, far, far better than anything else we have to go by, BUT it is dangerous to promote the so called imperfection, given how many people follow along as if there is real credibility associated with the "noisy" people. They are like nuisance mosquitoes, but in reality, they are much worse, because lives depend on accuracy in pandemic times. Unsubstantiated garbage should not be allowed air time, because unfortunately there are many who want to hear that message, for some strange reason. It justifies ridiculous, even dangerous behaviour. Sure, buy in if you must, but try not to drag in innocent bystanders that you truly care about, because you may be harming them, short term and long term. Yes, I heard about yet another study yesterday that emphasizes the likelihood of long term health issues because of covid-19 infection.

    As you well know Brent, lets remove all signs of politics on this. They are irrelevant. When you go to your doctor or medical specialist, do you ask them what party they belong to when they provide an assessment of your situation? I sure hope it never comes down to that. Well I suppose it could, if your medical person has a reputation of sorts. But if it does revolve around one's partisanship, why not just make the medical assessment that suits you the best. Heck, how hard is it to manage serious illnesses and such?! Piece of cake, right?

    That's the beauty of pure science, it does not care about politics....it cares about diligent attention to facts, solutions and giving us more knowledge one day to the next.
    Last edited by CanDB; 07-16-2021, 09:38 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Peerless
    replied
    Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
    In the same breath, I find online for as much as you might say "they wont let go of ...", the man has almost a fanboy like following as well. As I have mentioned a bunch of times, I have no skin the game in terms of political allegiance in the US, I am Australian, but Fauci has almost became a ping pong ball in the game of politics where one side denounces everything, and the other as I said fanboys him, that's what it looks like from the outside looking in. Does the man deserve all the critique levelled at him, probably not, but does he need to be held accountable for mistakes like every other high paid figure in a key decision making role ? Of course his actions need to be evaluated.

    I think people who are in his full support would say something like, no, we are on the side of science. And yes, as you mention Can, science is ever evolving, and the science will always call on that when a change emerges, that is 100% fair. But when the advice is dished out and the science reported on intially, whether by a third party, or from the primary source, it is always spoken on with such certainty, until those changes do emerge, and then all of sudden when past quotes, comments, and actions are called into question, again rightfully so, the science is evolving line is spoken. So what has science ever done to us that is so wrong ? I think maybe speaking in certainty on uncertain topics, then when changes emerge falling back to a position of this is how science works, it's evolving and we cannot be held accountable for past remarks due to this process, that is what calls individuals and the process into question, and rightfully so.
    If anything has happened to these public officials, especially Fauci - he has become a fringe target of mostly the people who disagree with him, and our current administration.

    Remember - this is a guy who has served his role as the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases since the mid 80's. He has served seven different presidents, all of different parties. He's had to lead the team against HIV/Aids, Ebola, Zikia, COVID, etc.

    The whipping boy process all started back during the hydroxychloroquine days of the pandemic. Remember? "Experts" kept praising how the antimalarial drug would prevent and treat COVID, while reputable scientists and researchers found that it wasn't the answer to the virus. Add that, and the fact that Fauci also been on record multiple times to wear masks, socially distance, and be safe - while the 2x impeached former president wanted the "quick fix" hydroxychloroquine drug and to open up America back to it's usual state during a pandemic - OF COURSE Fauci became the #1 target.

    Hey, whatever happened to that drug? I never hear of it anymore.... I wonder WHY???

    It also didn't help that mainstream media and several journalists, especially as it pertains to the White House press corps, purposely tried to get Fauci to contradict the former administration during his many press briefings. As I wrote earlier - People are still angry from March 2020 when Fauci appeared on ABC where he told people there’s no reason to be wearing a masks. A time during the COVID pandemic that we were all still learning about the actual virus.

    Right now in the United States people should not be walking around with masks … You should think of healthcare providers who are needing them and the people who are ill.
    That quote from Fauci is a familiar echo to what many others argued at that time, including the U.S. Surgeon General, the World Health Organization, and The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Of course, the views on that statement from most organizations changed, as more information became available about the disease.

    Literally - think of all of that. Here is a job that you've been doing for decades. You've been in this position for all of these years because you're good at what you do. You give your interventions and rationale based off of science and the data. You give newer interventions and measures based off of science and the newer research and data to help contain a pandemic, and someone who has no clue is telling you you're wrong, and to do the opposite. How ludicrous.

    Literally, let's just crap on all of the scientists and researchers for being wrong because some people just can't or won't understand that recommendations change as understanding of situations changes. It's that simple. There are no 'fan boys' of Fauci - there are fan boys of science, and the process of it.

    Last edited by Peerless; 07-16-2021, 06:56 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • CanDB
    replied
    Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post

    Completely fair post, I wasn't referring to anyone for the record, just an observation from the outside on what it looks like is most definitely happening. I think there is always also going to be extremes on everything, but having a healthy level of scepticism in an uncertain environment is also warranted, as is evaluations of past actions by the leaders on all issues, I don't think any fair and reasonable person could dispute that. Where would society be if decisions weren't questioned ? That could be a pretty dark place to be.

    Is this Delta strain more deadly according to the figures ? As I mentioned, what is confusing me in Australia is, we are being told that the reason we have been locked down is because the Delta strain is far more deadly, but we are having next to no deaths at all, when last year we had many many more. Is Australia too small of a sample size to make anything of that ? Maybe statistically as a % of people infected with the new strain, more have died and I am missing the point, but it seems to be quite an unquestioned narrative here which I think deserves to be questioned. Especially as I said when they lock us down because of it and negatively effect the lives of all. I don't think that is questioning science either, I just think if leaders want to play with the lives of people, they need to do a better job of informing people, as opposed to locking down and getting snappy at those who don't fully heel.
    I do not know all the details but what I read/hear is that Delta is the most contagious form of covid yet, and unvaccinated people are most at risk.

    Leave a comment:


  • johnlimburg
    replied
    Originally posted by CanDB View Post

    If you want my honest opinion, for most of us this is not about politics. Not one bit. I am a Liberal, and Democrat if I was an American. But this is about my health and the health of my family and everyone I care about. And I care about people I do not even know, like the elderly, the compromised. And as such, I have grown up in a world of differing administrations in Canada, and The US, but if I was to start all over and never had a political affiliation...I would go Science any day over those who somehow see it as an obstruction to whatever cause they are supporting. I have had all kinds of "shots" in my life, all kinds of medicines, and definitely 2 shots of covid vaccination, and touch wood, no setbacks yet. I can not prove each med worked fully, or even partially, but I do trust most doctors, and the science behind the healthcare system, and beyond. I'm about 7 decades in and have ample evidence that science and the medical experts are typically the right way to go.

    But I have a concern about the climate deniers, those who do not believe in covid vaccinations, and so forth. And I have a serious issue with people who want to diminish the value of science. Because denial of science and fact give folks complete justification to make up whatever suits them. That's clear to me. I see evidence every single day. And I wait them out, because in time they are proven wrong, and then you never hear from them anymore, or they suddenly change their opinion.

    Science gives confidence. People like Fauci are doing the best they can with the info they have....and believe me, it's much better than what the deniers have to offer. Delta is proving that each and every day.

    BTW....good leadership is providing the best info and the best recommendations based on what you have at the moment. It gives folks confidence that leadership is on the case, using the best data available, and ready to offer new guidance as soon as conditions support. It is not 100% perfect, especially in a new pandemic situation, but it is there to reassure that some one/some group is spending every moment trying to provide the best analysis and recommendations. In such devastating times, it is going to be fluid, because you can not know what no one knows. But continued effort to discover, using science, math, engineering or whatever, and wise interpretation on an ongoing basis, will more likely get you to the promised land, most of the time. For those who want simple solutions based on simple assessment and yes, often little fact at all....well, good luck.
    Completely fair post, I wasn't referring to anyone for the record, just an observation from the outside on what it looks like is most definitely happening. I think there is always also going to be extremes on everything, but having a healthy level of scepticism in an uncertain environment is also warranted, as is evaluations of past actions by the leaders on all issues, I don't think any fair and reasonable person could dispute that. Where would society be if decisions weren't questioned ? That could be a pretty dark place to be.

    Is this Delta strain more deadly according to the figures ? As I mentioned, what is confusing me in Australia is, we are being told that the reason we have been locked down is because the Delta strain is far more deadly, but we are having next to no deaths at all, when last year we had many many more. Is Australia too small of a sample size to make anything of that ? Maybe statistically as a % of people infected with the new strain, more have died and I am missing the point, but it seems to be quite an unquestioned narrative here which I think deserves to be questioned. Especially as I said when they lock us down because of it and negatively effect the lives of all. I don't think that is questioning science either, I just think if leaders want to play with the lives of people, they need to do a better job of informing people, as opposed to locking down and getting snappy at those who don't fully heel.

    Leave a comment:


  • CanDB
    replied
    Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
    In the same breath, I find online for as much as you might say "they wont let go of ...", the man has almost a fanboy like following as well. As I have mentioned a bunch of times, I have no skin the game in terms of political allegiance in the US, I am Australian, but Fauci has almost became a ping pong ball in the game of politics where one side denounces everything, and the other as I said fanboys him, that's what it looks like from the outside looking in. Does the man deserve all the critique levelled at him, probably not, but does he need to be held accountable for mistakes like every other high paid figure in a key decision making role ? Of course his actions need to be evaluated.

    I think people who are in his full support would say something like, no, we are on the side of science. And yes, as you mention Can, science is ever evolving, and the science will always call on that when a change emerges, that is 100% fair. But when the advice is dished out and the science reported on intially, whether by a third party, or from the primary source, it is always spoken on with such certainty, until those changes do emerge, and then all of sudden when past quotes, comments, and actions are called into question, again rightfully so, the science is evolving line is spoken. So what has science ever done to us that is so wrong ? I think maybe speaking in certainty on uncertain topics, then when changes emerge falling back to a position of this is how science works, it's evolving and we cannot be held accountable for past remarks due to this process, that is what calls individuals and the process into question, and rightfully so.
    If you want my honest opinion, for most of us this is not about politics. Not one bit. I am a Liberal, and Democrat if I was an American. But this is about my health and the health of my family and everyone I care about. And I care about people I do not even know, like the elderly, the compromised. And as such, I have grown up in a world of differing administrations in Canada, and The US, but if I was to start all over and never had a political affiliation...I would go Science any day over those who somehow see it as an obstruction to whatever cause they are supporting. I have had all kinds of "shots" in my life, all kinds of medicines, and definitely 2 shots of covid vaccination, and touch wood, no setbacks yet. I can not prove each med worked fully, or even partially, but I do trust most doctors, and the science behind the healthcare system, and beyond. I'm about 7 decades in and have ample evidence that science and the medical experts are typically the right way to go.

    But I have a concern about the climate deniers, those who do not believe in covid vaccinations, and so forth. And I have a serious issue with people who want to diminish the value of science. Because denial of science and fact give folks complete justification to make up whatever suits them. That's clear to me. I see evidence every single day. And I wait them out, because in time they are proven wrong, and then you never hear from them anymore, or they suddenly change their opinion.

    Science gives confidence. People like Fauci are doing the best they can with the info they have....and believe me, it's much better than what the deniers have to offer. Delta is proving that each and every day.

    BTW....good leadership is providing the best info and the best recommendations based on what you have at the moment. It gives folks confidence that leadership is on the case, using the best data available, and ready to offer new guidance as soon as conditions support. It is not 100% perfect, especially in a new pandemic situation, but it is there to reassure that some one/some group is spending every moment trying to provide the best analysis and recommendations. In such devastating times, it is going to be fluid, because you can not know what no one knows. But continued effort to discover, using science, math, engineering or whatever, and wise interpretation on an ongoing basis, will more likely get you to the promised land, most of the time. For those who want simple solutions based on simple assessment and yes, often little fact at all....well, good luck.

    Leave a comment:


  • johnlimburg
    replied
    In the same breath, I find online for as much as you might say "they wont let go of ...", the man has almost a fanboy like following as well. As I have mentioned a bunch of times, I have no skin the game in terms of political allegiance in the US, I am Australian, but Fauci has almost became a ping pong ball in the game of politics where one side denounces everything, and the other as I said fanboys him, that's what it looks like from the outside looking in. Does the man deserve all the critique levelled at him, probably not, but does he need to be held accountable for mistakes like every other high paid figure in a key decision making role ? Of course his actions need to be evaluated.

    I think people who are in his full support would say something like, no, we are on the side of science. And yes, as you mention Can, science is ever evolving, and the science will always call on that when a change emerges, that is 100% fair. But when the advice is dished out and the science reported on intially, whether by a third party, or from the primary source, it is always spoken on with such certainty, until those changes do emerge, and then all of sudden when past quotes, comments, and actions are called into question, again rightfully so, the science is evolving line is spoken. So what has science ever done to us that is so wrong ? I think maybe speaking in certainty on uncertain topics, then when changes emerge falling back to a position of this is how science works, it's evolving and we cannot be held accountable for past remarks due to this process, that is what calls individuals and the process into question, and rightfully so.

    Leave a comment:


  • CanDB
    replied
    Originally posted by Peerless View Post

    Easy fix - turn off the TV. Deactivate your social media platforms.

    And as for the Fauci comment, let's actually review the quote in context:



    I don't know why you are trying to make Fauci sound like some sort of egotistical "I am the science" posturing / flexing figure.

    I get it... I get it.. People are still angry from March 2020 when Fauci appeared on ABC where he told people there’s no reason to be wearing a masks. A time during the COVID pandemic that we were all still learning about the actual virus.

    Unfortunately, the same people are the ones who don't understand or care for science, and are literally blinded and could care less by the fact that science is a continuous process - a continuous study of previous data and new data. Trial and error. Science changes as more data is acquired - ie Masks DO help, social distancing does help, vaccinations help.

    There was a time when nearly everyone would trust the science even if they couldn't understand it. What's changed is that people now have the confidence to say the science is wrong without even trying to understand it, fueled by the unwillingness of scientists to be as confident as religious figures, politicians or their critics, occasional failures of science, a growing mistrust of authority figures generally because of their lies and failings, and the rise of public forums where those who wish to promote discord, distrust and absolute garbage have free rein.

    But holy crap, why are we still even TALKING about Fauci? Ridiculous.
    Like u say Brent, if you don't want to know about the incredibly dangerous variant, look the other way. But anyone who is not interested must be living in some sort of dream world, as in we've had enough pandemic talk. Time to talk about something else. I don't think it's wise. We are not over this thing yet, and though there are positive signs, take your medicine, listen to the experts and balance life with whatever is going on around you. I sense there will be a 4th wave, even though it may be smaller, once Delta has its way with all those unvaccinated people. But there are ways around it:
    1) Keep tuned into the science/medical experts (daily)
    2) Think open minded about what you don't understand...the lives of yourself and people you care about may be compromised in future
    3) Take your meds!!! 2 of them.

    As for your view on Fauci...count me in. The critics will never stop talking about the masks in the early stage of covid, and ironically those are the same people who probably wouldn't have worn them that early had he recommended it. But at that early stage, many experts were incorrect about masks. It's called learning curve. This is a new dynamic on this planet, so you don't just assume masks are required. My goodness, most of us had never worn a mask for health purposes before, and it took time to get to that stage, even with recommendations.

    But the anti science folks have to always have any type of reason to denounce the profession. Seriously, since when did Science do us so much wrong??? I have a theory, it might have begun with a group of lousy science students.... Heck, the earth is flat (ask Branson and every other space traveler), climate change is a hoax (don't ask the fossil fuel producers), covid is not only dangerous but could be a warning of what is to come (ask the former President who required very expensive medical support). Bottom line, trust science. Those who don't buy it are typically trying to sell something, and the dang truth gets in the way.

    Back to Fauci....I listen to him to this day, knowing I will get the correct version about 99% of the time. He is human. Pandemics of this nature are extremely hard to understand, and yes, solve (take your meds!!). And the really hard part, the part that many can't quite grasp, is that, not only is it extremely hard to deal with a new pandemic - one that has killed about 4 million already, and may have caused unimaginable long term medical problems - but it is terribly challenging being one of the key voices thru the process. The one who has to interpret and relay information to the masses, as they look for any reason to dislike what you say, or not trust what you say. And then they pounce on anything you might have got wrong, or even partially wrong. That's pathetic stuff.

    Leave a comment:


  • Peerless
    replied
    Originally posted by Hadez View Post

    We get the same type of news in Southern California about the Delta. Pretty much every hour the news cycle talks about the Delta variant and in another news piece close to it will talk about how the people dying and going to the hospital are not vaccinated. I think it is a way to trying to encourage people to get the vaccine. Not sure if it will change much at this point.

    As for Fauci...surprised anyone listening to him after his e-mails came out. Once he said "questioning Fauci was like questioning Science" I pretty much stopped giving him any benefit of the doubt.
    Easy fix - turn off the TV. Deactivate your social media platforms.

    And as for the Fauci comment, let's actually review the quote in context:

    A lot of what you’re seeing as attacks on me, quite frankly, are attacks on science, because all of the things that I have spoken about, consistently from the very beginning, have been fundamentally based on science,” the nation’s top infectious disease expert said before rebutting the attacks on prior remarks on how the coronavirus originated and the importance of wearing masks to prevent transmission. “If you go through each and every one of them, you can explain and debunk it immediately,” Fauci said. “I mean, every single one.
    I don't know why you are trying to make Fauci sound like some sort of egotistical "I am the science" posturing / flexing figure.

    I get it... I get it.. People are still angry from March 2020 when Fauci appeared on ABC where he told people there’s no reason to be wearing a masks. A time during the COVID pandemic that we were all still learning about the actual virus.

    Unfortunately, the same people are the ones who don't understand or care for science, and are literally blinded and could care less by the fact that science is a continuous process - a continuous study of previous data and new data. Trial and error. Science changes as more data is acquired - ie Masks DO help, social distancing does help, vaccinations help.

    There was a time when nearly everyone would trust the science even if they couldn't understand it. What's changed is that people now have the confidence to say the science is wrong without even trying to understand it, fueled by the unwillingness of scientists to be as confident as religious figures, politicians or their critics, occasional failures of science, a growing mistrust of authority figures generally because of their lies and failings, and the rise of public forums where those who wish to promote discord, distrust and absolute garbage have free rein.

    But holy crap, why are we still even TALKING about Fauci? Ridiculous.
    Last edited by Peerless; 07-15-2021, 07:07 AM.

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  • Hadez
    replied
    Originally posted by CanDB View Post


    Prior to the vaccines, we were in a precarious situation. Trying our best to make rules that would protect us, keep things going, and reduce the workload and resources of our healthcare folks and system. It was nowhere near perfect, and it was handled much different depending on where you lived. But the vaccines came along not a moment too soon, and have been a saviour for so many of us. And now we see amazing stats, as a result. The virus and the variant(s) are having difficulty penetrating those who have been vaccinated. But the variant is thriving on unvaccinated people, and younger than before. And once again, the medical system/folks are having to help them.

    Non-profit doctors have been suggesting life saving treatment since Oct 2020. They went to the Senate with it on Dec 8 2020. How many people died between those times and the time people had access to the vaccine? How many times have I seen people on this forum say we should be doing whatever it takes to save lifes?

    Meanwhile families had to go to court to get hospitals to use the treatment.

    https://covidcalltohumanity.org/2021/03/31/judge-orders-hospital-to-use-ivermectin-covid-patient-80-year-old-woman-recovers/
    Last edited by Hadez; 07-14-2021, 06:57 PM.

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  • Hadez
    replied
    Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
    I am confused when it comes to the "Delta" strain/variant of the disease. Here in Australia, if you read my last long-ranting post about lockdowns, it has extended due to roughly 80-100 community cases being evident per day. We will remain in lockdown and the government has the guilt-tripping ads coming in hot and heavy, they are loving their power over us.

    The news cycle is driving home how much danger we are in this time around because of this variant, but what confuses me is, we have had 1 death as a result of it. The news keeps saying how important these lockdowns are for our future as we are in a more "deadly" situation now than at the start of the pandemic, but the results don't indicate that here.

    What is annoying me is, we keep being told these things, and I am in no way anti-vaccine as I have made clear, but in Australia I believe we have had 1 blood clotting death as a result of the vaccine, the same amount of deaths from this "Delta" strain, where is the logic in pushing this down our throats? And there is no public debate or discourse about anything regarding this.

    Our politicians have zero backbone here and the health advice is far too cautious it seems, it is always going to be I guess. I know that is what led to Australia going through the first wave more efficiently than anyone else around the world, but enough is enough and the fear and unwillingness to take some even small calculated risks to get back to normality is driving me nuts.

    And finally, the audacity of this Fauci guy who whenever he gets on Australian television condescendingly talks down to us like he has all the answers. I think he really needs to reconsider why he is so smug when America has had a horrible time dealing with the disease, and he personally has question mark after question mark surrounding his conduct.
    We get the same type of news in Southern California about the Delta. Pretty much every hour the news cycle talks about the Delta variant and in another news piece close to it will talk about how the people dying and going to the hospital are not vaccinated. I think it is a way to trying to encourage people to get the vaccine. Not sure if it will change much at this point.

    As for Fauci...surprised anyone listening to him after his e-mails came out. Once he said "questioning Fauci was like questioning Science" I pretty much stopped giving him any benefit of the doubt.

    Leave a comment:


  • CanDB
    replied
    Originally posted by Peerless View Post

    Well, no. I do not think the Spike Protein from my COVID vaccine is dangerous. I think you, among many others are missing the point on spike proteins. Take that back, I haven't read much into this thread recently for my sanity, so I'm unclear on what your stance or education on the matter is.

    To answer your other question bluntly - COVID caused/causing a pandemic because people were (are) stupid. But that is a different (and old) topic...

    Back to the spike protein:

    Spike proteins from COVID-19 vaccination (the shot) behave differently than the spike proteins from natural COVID-19 infections (the virus).


    Here is a nice reputable source to help break down the differences:

    https://health-desk.org/articles/wha...id-19-vaccines

    Another good and interesting read from this medicinal chemist on the behavior of spike protein:

    https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipelin...pike-protein-b



    Hadez, there ya have it. You asked for it. Some data and supported science. Science is COOL. Now please, find me a scientific source about the Spike Protein FROM THE VACCINE and how is wrecking havoc on people in the Pandemic. And please, do not share that garbage of those two articles from Bridle's misjudged and misrepresented theories....

    So again, I'll repeat my stance:

    No - I do NOT think the Spike Protein from a vaccination is dangerous. In comparison TO the vaccine, the spike protein from the original virus IS dangerous (example: 2020 pandemic).

    The Canadian viral immunologist Byram Bridle is wrong and has spread false theories and rumors which have been widely shared throughout the web and social media regarding Spike Proteins.
    I am going with your info. Because it is based on science and expertise. Plus the fact that I do not hear a single bleep about this protein situation. Had it been an issue, at least one of the folks we watch/read/ listen to would have mentioned it by now.

    On the other hand when experts (Doctors) say that almost every single case they are dealing with now are unvaccinated folks, now there's a fact/stat/commentary/consideration for the masses to grasp.

    Prior to the vaccines, we were in a precarious situation. Trying our best to make rules that would protect us, keep things going, and reduce the workload and resources of our healthcare folks and system. It was nowhere near perfect, and it was handled much different depending on where you lived. But the vaccines came along not a moment too soon, and have been a saviour for so many of us. And now we see amazing stats, as a result. The virus and the variant(s) are having difficulty penetrating those who have been vaccinated. But the variant is thriving on unvaccinated people, and younger than before. And once again, the medical system/folks are having to help them.

    Where I live, vaccination rates are pretty good, and now we are being allowed to live more freely. The deductions to be made are quite simple if you ask me. Vaccinate and you will be fine, in almost every case. Sure there exceptions to everything, including meds. But my goodness, lets not stir up some anti vaccine justification, with so little evidence in support thereof. And as I alluded to earlier, lets not give folks like that more reason to abstain.

    Leave a comment:


  • Peerless
    replied
    Originally posted by Hadez View Post

    So you do not think the Spike Protein is dangerous? Why exactly do you think Covid19 is causing the Pandemic?

    Again tell me a science source you trust and I am sure I can find something there about the Spike Protein and how is wrecking havoc on people in the Pandemic.
    Well, no. I do not think the Spike Protein from my COVID vaccine is dangerous. I think you, among many others are missing the point on spike proteins. Take that back, I haven't read much into this thread recently for my sanity, so I'm unclear on what your stance or education on the matter is.

    To answer your other question bluntly - COVID caused/causing a pandemic because people were (are) stupid. But that is a different (and old) topic...

    Back to the spike protein:

    Spike proteins from COVID-19 vaccination (the shot) behave differently than the spike proteins from natural COVID-19 infections (the virus).


    Here is a nice reputable source to help break down the differences:

    https://health-desk.org/articles/wha...id-19-vaccines

    The spike proteins produced in the body from COVID-19 vaccination are widely considered safe, whether from mRNA vaccines (ex. Moderna, Pfizer) or viral vector vaccines (ex. AstraZeneca, Johnson & Johnson). These spike proteins from COVID-19 vaccination play an important role in training the immune system to protect the body from COVID-19.

    False claims about the toxicity of spike proteins from COVID-19 vaccination often misinterpret studies, and fail to take into account how spike proteins from COVID-19 vaccination behave differently than the spike proteins from natural COVID-19 infection.

    Vaccines go through very rigorous standards set by the U.S. FDA to meet safety and efficacy criteria. Thousands of people underwent clinical trials over several months to understand if there were any side effects or risks associated with the vaccines. The vaccines are still being monitored for any safety concerns or patterns being seen that can risk human well-being.

    So far, there is no scientific evidence available that suggests that spike proteins created in our bodies from the COVID-19 vaccines are toxic or damaging our organs. COVID-19 vaccines are relatively new and long-term side effects are yet to be known. However, the vaccines have met the safety standards of many government and international safety agencies.

    Several systems help us monitor vaccine safety. In the United States these include the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS), The Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD), the Post-License Rapid Immunization Safety Monitoring (PRISM), and the Clinical Immunization Safety Assessment Project (CISA). These systems are used by scientists to monitor side effects and any other patterns of risks from vaccines.

    The COVID-19 vaccine has been administered to 135 million people in the United States. As expected with any vaccine, some fully vaccinated people still got sick, hospitalized, and/or died. These "breakthrough cases" are a very small percentage of those vaccinated (<0.001%) and are being studied to detect any relevant patterns.

    So far no scientific evidence is available that gives credence to claims that spike proteins created from vaccines travel in our bloodstreams. Research shows that spike proteins stay stuck to the surface of the cells around the vaccine's injection site. They are not known to wander around to other parts of the body.

    A very tiny dose of the vaccine does make it to the bloodstream (about 1%), but as soon as it gets to the liver, the enzymes there destroy it completely. The U.S. CDC refers to the spike protein made from the vaccine as “harmless.”


    Context and background

    Vaccine development, approval, and manufacturing involve rigorous processes, first among which is safety. Only if a vaccine is considered safe and effective, and the benefits outweigh the risks, is a vaccine authorized for use. Several scientists and experts at regulatory agencies like the FDA study vaccine data, and come to conclusions on vaccine safety and efficacy before deciding whether it's safe for the public to use.


    Resources
    1. mRNA Vaccines (U.S. CDC)
    2. Spike Protein (Science Direct)
    3. Explainer: What is a spike protein? (Science News for students)
    4. Spike Protein/ S Protein (SinoBiological)
    5. Structure, Function, and Antigenicity of the SARS-CoV-2 Spike Glycoprotein (Cell)
    6. Development and Licensure of Vaccines to Prevent COVID-19 - Guidance for Industry (US FDA)
    7. Spike Protein Behavior (Science Translational Medicine)
    8. Possibility of COVID-19 Illness After Vaccination (U.S. CDC)
    9. COVID-19 Breakthrough Case Investigations and Reporting (U.S. CDC)
    10. Ensuring the Safety of Vaccines in the United States (U.S. CDC)
    11. Ensuring the Safety of Vaccines in the United States (US FDA)
    12. Vaccine Safety Monitoring (US CDC)
    13. Vaccine Safety Basics (WHO)
    Another good and interesting read from this medicinal chemist on the behavior of spike protein:

    https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipelin...pike-protein-b

    I’ve been getting a lot of questions in the last few days about several Spike-protein-related (and vaccine-related) topics, so I thought this would be a good time to go into them. There’s been a recent report about the vascular effects of the Spike protein alone (not coronavirus infection per se), and another presentation on similar effects in lung tissue. These are almost certainly looking at the same phenomena – the lungs are of course full of vascular tissue, and what’s being seen in both cases is very likely mediated by effects on the vascular endothelium.

    In the first study, hamsters were injected with a pseudovirus was created that expressed surface Spike protein, while in the second the researchers just injected the protein directly into mice. The pseudovirus team went on to compare endothelial cells with different mutational forms of the ACE2 surface protein (S680D, with increased stability and S680L, with decreased stability). The response to the pseudovirus was quite different in these two, suggesting that it is indeed the binding of the Spike protein to ACE2 that’s a key part of this process. That happens as the coronvirus infects vascular tissue, of course, but this work shows that it’s not the whole process of viral infection that’s responsible for all the trouble: it starts with the initial binding event.

    So I’ve been getting questions about what this means for vaccination: if we’re causing people to express Spike protein via mRNA or adenovirus vectors, are we damaging them just as if they’d been infected with coronavirus? Fortunately, the answer definitely seems to be “no” – in fact, the pseudovirus paper notes near the end that the antibody response generated by vaccination against the Spike protein will be beneficial in two ways, against infection and against the Spike-mediated endothelial damage as well. There are several reasons why the situation is different.

    Consider what happens when you’re infected by the actual coronavirus. We know now that the huge majority of such infections are spread by inhalation of virus-laden droplets from other infected people, so the route of administration is via the nose and/or lungs, and the cells lining your airway are thus the first ones to get infected. The viral infection process leads at the end to lysis of the the host cell and subsequent dumping of a load of new viral particles – and these get dumped into the cellular neighborhood and into the bloodstream. They then have a clear shot at the endothelial cells lining the airway vasculature, which are the very focus of these two new papers.

    Compare this, though, to what happens in vaccination. The injection is intramuscular, not into the bloodstream. That’s why a muscle like the deltoid is preferred, because it’s a good target of thicker muscle tissue without any easily hit veins or arteries at the site of injection. The big surface vein in that region is the cephalic vein, and it’s down along where the deltoid and pectoral muscles meet, not high up in the shoulder. In earlier animal model studies of mRNA vaccines, such administration was clearly preferred over a straight i.v. injection; the effects were much stronger. So the muscle cells around the injection are hit by the vaccine (whether mRNA-containing lipid nanoparticles or adenovirus vectors) while a good portion of the remaining dose is in the intercellular fluid and thus drains through the lymphatic system, not the bloodstream. That’s what you want, since the lymph nodes are a major site of immune response. The draining lymph nodes for the deltoid are going to be the deltoid/pectoral ones where those two muscles meet, and the larger axillary lymph nodes down in the armpit on that side.

    Now we get to a key difference: when a cell gets the effect of an mRNA nanoparticle or an adenovirus vector, it of course starts to express the Spike protein. But instead of that being assembled into more infectious viral particles, as would happen in a real coronavirus infection, this protein gets moved up to the surface of the cell, where it stays. That’s where it’s presented to the immune system, as an abnormal intruding protein on a cell surface. The Spike protein is not released to wander freely through the bloodstream by itself, because it has a transmembrane anchor region that (as the name implies) leaves it stuck. That’s how it sits in the virus itself, and it does the same in human cells. See the discussion in this paper on the development of the Moderna vaccine, and the same applies to all the mRNA and vector vaccines that produce the Spike. You certainly don’t have the real-infection situation of Spike-covered viruses washing along everywhere through the circulation. The Spike protein produced by vaccination is not released in a way that it gets to encounter the ACE2 proteins on the surface of other human cells at all: it’s sitting on the surface of muscle and lymphatic cells up in your shoulder, not wandering through your lungs causing trouble.

    Some of the vaccine dose is going to make it into the bloodstream, of course. But keep in mind, when the mRNA or adenovirus particles do hit cells outside of the liver or the site of injection, they’re still causing them to express Spike protein anchored on their surfaces, not dumping it into the circulation. Here’s the EMA briefing document for the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine – on pages 46 and 47, you can read the results of distribution studies. These were done two ways – by using an mRNA for luciferase (and thus looking at the resulting light emission from the various rodent regions!) and by using a radioactive label (which is a more sensitive technique). The great majority of the radioactivty stays in and around the injection site. In the first hours, there’s also some circulating in the plasma. But almost all of that ended up in the liver, and no other tissue was much over 1% of the total. That’s exactly what you’d expect, and what you see with drug dosing in general: your entire blood volume goes sluicing through the liver again and again, because that’s what the liver is for. But when things like this hit the hepatic tissue, they stay there and eventually get chewed up by various destructive enzymes (that’s also a big part of what the liver is for). It’s a one-way ticket.

    So the reports of Spike protein trouble are interesting and important for coronavirus infection, but they do not mean that the vaccines themselves are going to cause similar problems. In fact, as mentioned above, the fact that these vaccines are aimed at the Spike means that they’re protective in more ways than we even realized.

    Update: there’s another level of difference that I didn’t mention. In the Moderna, Pfizer/BioNTech, J&J, and Novavax vaccines, the Spike protein has some proline mutations introduced to try to hold it in its “prefusion” conformation, rather than the shape it adopts when it binds to ACE2. So that should cut down even more on the ability of the Spike protein produced by these vaccines to bind and produce the effects noted in the recent papers. That comes in particularly handy for the Novavax one, since it’s an injection of Spike protein itself, rather than a vaccine that has it produced inside the cells. Notably, the AstraZeneca/Oxford vaccine is producing wild-type Spike (although that’s still going to be membrane-anchored as discussed above!)
    Hadez, there ya have it. You asked for it. Some data and supported science. Science is COOL. Now please, find me a scientific source about the Spike Protein FROM THE VACCINE and how is wrecking havoc on people in the Pandemic. And please, do not share that garbage of those two articles from Bridle's misjudged and misrepresented theories....

    So again, I'll repeat my stance:

    No - I do NOT think the Spike Protein from a vaccination is dangerous. In comparison TO the vaccine, the spike protein from the original virus IS dangerous (example: 2020 pandemic).

    The Canadian viral immunologist Byram Bridle is wrong and has spread false theories and rumors which have been widely shared throughout the web and social media regarding Spike Proteins.
    Last edited by Peerless; 07-14-2021, 03:35 PM.

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