Corona virus

[CanDB]

All I am saying is if you are going to repeat something, you have to have some deeper understanding than, "it's what I hear". Look, I don't even know, I asked you because I thought you would be all over it, and it's something I have been genuinely wondering based on what is going on right now in Australia. I could be wrong, but only had a quick browse and seen some interesting things in relation to the death rate around the Delta strain being not as high, and the scientific community is taking positives from that and the data they have. I just wasn't sure why our leaders here then have taken the steps they have, that's all, and I asked the question as you were very much involved in repeating a similar sentiment.

In regards to your other comments, you tend to do this, you will go into other areas of discussion not being talked about in your attempt to posture in the conversation. My gripe, my question, my point was around if the Delta strain is more deadly, that's it. I am not talking about vaccines, it is not a surprise that people who have not been vaccinated are more likely to get the disease in which they are not vaccinated for, obviously. That is not what I asked you either, that is not what I responded to when you said "it's what you heard", I have not mentioned the vaccinated at all in what I have said, I was genuinely asking if it is more deadly as I thought you would know based on your comments.

Also, that article presents nothing in relation to what I asked or what I was talking about. I also don't know why anyone would call that biased either, it is an article about an increase in people getting vaccinated in areas with previously lower vaccination rates, and more hospital presentations are occurring. Australia since this current lockdown started has seen the same thing when it comes to an increase in people going out to get vaccinated, but again, I asked is it actually more deadly, it doesn't appear the data is there yet to demonstrate that, and your tangent is off-base when responding to what I said.

In relation to your last point, I am over restrictions. Lockdowns are not the way forward. The initial response here in Australia was widely acknowledged as being right at the time and the blueprint for handling the Covid outbreak, as was Singapore and New Zealand. However, one year on, after returning to normality really quickly last year, we are in the exact same place we were. I think as a whole people this time around are over it, and I am too. People are fed up with being dictated too and that is fair. The other day I broke the covid rules to go for a run in the same bushland I go for a run in every single morning. I left the 10 KM area I am not allowed to leave, and I went running. It is one of the small things in my life I look forward to and haven't been able to do. At the end of my run, I bumped into one of my high school teachers who I was a little ratbag for, and treated pretty poorly. We had a chat for about half an hour as we walked, and the outside human interaction in nature was exactly what I needed.

I felt kind of emotional after it weirdly, people are social creatures, and someday soon we have to be a little more lenient in allowing activity in my opinion. I feel at this rate it is just going to pop back up, here, then there, then over there, and the answer cannot be restrictions set on society every time. It's a very contentious subject also, and I am not even sure how I feel about restricting activity for certain people because they have not got vaccinated, part of it just doesn't sit right with me. I need to think a little more on that point honestly.

I am not going to get back into "personal behaviour stuff" again. I can probably make that comment for many members, based on their tendencies and such. Not a good place to go.

As for the stats, they speak for themselves. So look em up next time. I guess I stop presenting stats when it appears to be common knowledge. And as far as I can tell, the big issue these days is the Delta variant, and its impacts on unvaccinated people. And it may be taxing the hospital staff/resources, and therefore becomes a burden. And for me, it's so simple to deduce....if you want to minimize your risks with Delta, get vaccinated. People are dying. So if I get a little lazy on the numbers, it's because this is almost a "no brainer" problem (though I do not like using the term).

And if I think it's not worth extra effort to inform is because I find the same old problem carries on....those who did not want to wear masks, or isolate, or lockdown for a defined period. It's always something. And early on it was because they were too healthy, whereas older/compromised folks were the only target. It never ends, this whining about what's wrong with Fauci, or the vaccines, or the lockdowns, or anything that appears to mess with certain rights and lifestyles.

As for the article, I offered it quickly, and also said I'd look harder if this was biased in any way....not that I thought it was. But often someone will try to turn it into a "biased" source argument.

Anyway....I stand by what I thought was right from the get go. I also am excited that restrictions are being lifted, borders may reopen for vaccinated people (as in mid August potentially between us and The US), The Blue Jays can now return home for a July 30th stand, I can see my family again (not just on Facetime and Zoom), and pretty soon, if we keep wise about all of this, we will basically turn covid-19 into a tiny shadow of what it was.....with the exception of course of less fortunate countries. It can pay off, especially if it does not come down to a "me" thing.

Anyway...not going to critique your process, but maybe look things up yourself. I feel like this is becoming 101 covid now. Prior to the vaccines all we had was hope, caution, wisdom, patience and a slow but steady understanding of this deadly virus. The vaccines were always the answer. It's obvious that they are. So why not try em out?

[johnlimburg]

I am not going to get back into "personal behaviour stuff" again. I can probably make that comment for many members, based on their tendencies and such. Not a good place to go.

As for the stats, they speak for themselves. So look em up next time. I guess I stop presenting stats when it appears to be common knowledge. And as far as I can tell, the big issue these days is the Delta variant, and its impacts on unvaccinated people. And it may be taxing the hospital staff/resources, and therefore becomes a burden. And for me, it's so simple to deduce....if you want to minimize your risks with Delta, get vaccinated. People are dying. So if I get a little lazy on the numbers, it's because this is almost a "no brainer" problem (though I do not like using the term).

And if I think it's not worth extra effort to inform is because I find the same old problem carries on....those who did not want to wear masks, or isolate, or lockdown for a defined period. It's always something. And early on it was because they were too healthy, whereas older/compromised folks were the only target. It never ends, this whining about what's wrong with Fauci, or the vaccines, or the lockdowns, or anything that appears to mess with certain rights and lifestyles.

As for the article, I offered it quickly, and also said I'd look harder if this was biased in any way....not that I thought it was. But often someone will try to turn it into a "biased" source argument.

Anyway....I stand by what I thought was right from the get go. I also am excited that restrictions are being lifted, borders may reopen for vaccinated people (as in mid August potentially between us and The US), The Blue Jays can now return home for a July 30th stand, I can see my family again (not just on Facetime and Zoom), and pretty soon, if we keep wise about all of this, we will basically turn covid-19 into a tiny shadow of what it was.....with the exception of course of less fortunate countries. It can pay off, especially if it does not come down to a "me" thing.

Anyway...not going to critique your process, but maybe look things up yourself. I feel like this is becoming 101 covid now. Prior to the vaccines all we had was hope, caution, wisdom, patience and a slow but steady understanding of this deadly virus. The vaccines were always the answer. It's obvious that they are. So why not try em out?

Again, I don't know why you ask me that to sign off, I never mentioned anything about that, at any point, and you're talking just to talk here. And in reference to your "common knowledge" comment, knowledge you didn't have when I just asked you a simple question ? You said you "heard" about it, okay. I didn't actually say anything crazy at all, just asked you a question about the Delta strain as you were expressing a sentiment I couldn't understand based on the situation here specifically in Australia, in reference specifically to one aspect, is the Delta variant more deadly ? I expressed that I didn't know, and my apologies for asking you a question on a topic you were talking about. Interesting that research is finding the Delta strain isn't as deadly from several accounts in places around the world, definitely is more contagious though according to the science currently.

[CanDB]

Again, I don't know why you ask me that to sign off, I never mentioned anything about that, at any point, and you're talking just to talk here. And in reference to your "common knowledge" comment, knowledge you didn't have when I just asked you a simple question ? You said you "heard" about it, okay. I didn't actually say anything crazy at all, just asked you a question about the Delta strain as you were expressing a sentiment I couldn't understand based on the situation here specifically in Australia, in reference specifically to one aspect, is the Delta variant more deadly ? I expressed that I didn't know, and my apologies for asking you a question on a topic you were talking about. Interesting that research is finding the Delta strain isn't as deadly from several accounts in places around the world, definitely is more contagious though according to the science currently.

I expressed myself poorly. I should have stuck with "Delta is dividing up folks, vaccinated vs unvaccinated". And the side to be on is vaccinated. It's common knowledge here, so sorry for that. If I talk to folks....which by the way is the old fashioned way to learn, it's because a big network of well read, intelligent folks is a pretty learned one. You do not have to look up studies for everything. You talk with your best buds, some neighbours, maybe a sister or brother, the local grocery person, the dentist....and within 24 hours u realize the situation. Yes, include in that some CNN, local news and national news. (I don't watch Fox). But it's obvious what the state of covid is these days. And whether it's as deadly or more deadly I guess I did not spend much time digging for that, because if hospitals are taking in increasing numbers of covid patients in some locations, and they are unvaccinated almost in entirety, and there are many on intensive care, it becomes a no brainer evaluation. It is not my interest as it is yours, because any stress on the healthcare system, including IC and deaths is a bad situation. And it's apparently those who do not buy in to what is a very easy solution, one that you need nothing more than an ordinary brain and an arm to absorb. Why are the folks following the rules having to keep dealing with covid, because people with "rights" and some who are into false invented theories, and people who are not paying attention, keep this flame alive??

I will remind you and anyone else who cares to listen....the goal for each of us is to protect ourselves and one another. But apparently the old days when folks fought for one another, thought nothing about sacrificing for the greater good, are sliding away. I would hate to share a bunker at war with some of these dudes. Seriously, and back to the point I am trying to end with. Too many could care less about others, especially the elderly and those who were compromised in terms of immune systems and such. It was disgusting hearing them care less. "But hey, I'm good, so life is fine."

But what many of the selfish ones missed out was that the long term effects of covid may still be a factor, so by leaving your guard down, you may have gambled unwisely. And as for not vaccinating now, with an "abundance" of information that proves Delta feasts on the unvaccinated, and not just elderly/compromised, it has become almost a joke in my circle of contacts. There are some (in this world) who can not get vaccinated for various reasons, and I feel for them. But whether more folks are dying should not be the concern. It should be:
- why are the numbers rising again, anywhere?
- why risk lives when vaccines are clearly the saviour?
- why even think about getting covid, with the repeated evidence of potential long term damage to organs?
- when are folks going to let the healthcare system and its employees get a break from covid, when they have so many others to catch up with? Do you know how many of us may have waited too long to get that surgery we needed, maybe some procedure that seemed like no big deal at the time, but has now flared up, have missed an appointment or two that may have caught the cancer or other disease early enough to be reckoned with?

I have many other questions, but hey, you will probably say I am deflecting or not answering. But I think, in all of this, the things I state are all that matters. It's all dangerous as far as we know, and it is a killer still.

Recently we heard (there's the wimpy word again), that a friend of a close person to us was put on intensive care.....the person was fairly young, and fairly healthy, and yes, anti vaxx. I hope that person ended up ok. I will "hear" about it soon I am sure. But I "heard" it so it might not be valid.

[Hadez]

Easy fix - turn off the TV. Deactivate your social media platforms.

And as for the Fauci comment, let's actually review the quote in context:



I don't know why you are trying to make Fauci sound like some sort of egotistical "I am the science" posturing / flexing figure.

I get it... I get it.. People are still angry from March 2020 when Fauci appeared on ABC where he told people there’s no reason to be wearing a masks. A time during the COVID pandemic that we were all still learning about the actual virus.

Unfortunately, the same people are the ones who don't understand or care for science, and are literally blinded and could care less by the fact that science is a continuous process - a continuous study of previous data and new data. Trial and error. Science changes as more data is acquired - ie Masks DO help, social distancing does help, vaccinations help.

There was a time when nearly everyone would trust the science even if they couldn't understand it. What's changed is that people now have the confidence to say the science is wrong without even trying to understand it, fueled by the unwillingness of scientists to be as confident as religious figures, politicians or their critics, occasional failures of science, a growing mistrust of authority figures generally because of their lies and failings, and the rise of public forums where those who wish to promote discord, distrust and absolute garbage have free rein.

But holy crap, why are we still even TALKING about Fauci? Ridiculous.

Look I get if people watch one set of "news" they want to lock Fauci up. He is a criminal...put him in jail. If they watch another set of "news" they think he should be an honorary member of the Avengers doing as much good as Black Widow and Hawkeye. That is just a statement of how blinded people can be to one side of the story. I have not had cable / satellite TV in almost 2 years. I do not get my news from either of these two bunches of cooperate entertainment. I watch clips on youtube of these sources from time to time just to get a feel for what people are taking in as "news" but that probably accounts for 5% of my overall information intake.

So as the director of the U.S. National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and the chief medical advisor to the president as well as the guy showing up in Australia to try and convince people to follow certain paths his integrity is in question as it has been proven he intentionally mis-lead the public in the past about wearing a mask and his e-mails indicate that is not the only time.

"To question Fauci to to question science" ....it really does not matter the context....if someone is a Director of a science based group that leads the country and says something like this....we need to take a seriously look at what they are doing. Specially if it has already been shown they mis-lead the public for whatever reason. I am talking about the mask things here but about to go into other things below.

If you want to put some context in that how about his emails which show he mislead the public about what he knew of the origin of Covid19?

He will not answer questions to Congress in which his e-mails not only indicate he knew Covid19 looked man made but he also appears to be working to cover up that is was man made. Probably for no other reason than it looks like his group help fund the research where Covid19 was probably evolved in a lab.

When he was pushed about why under his leadership Gain of Function research was funded by the USA in China he looked far more like a politician + lawyer trying to play cover up than a doctor. Mean while many doctors and scientists have come out and said they do not understand why he said it was not Gain of Function when clearly it was Gain of Function. His e-mails show it was Gain of Function and he was concerned about the possibility his group funded it as shown in his e-mails.


There is another side of this obviously but I am not trying to write an essay as I am busy with so many things right now. I am sure you are well understood in all the things that defend Fauci and maybe you will speak to what you have seen on your sources.

IMO at this point anyone who still had even 90% faith in Fauci or the work being done under him are not even trying to see all the facts. I am not part of the political movement that thinks he needs to be locked up but he needs to be removed from his job because at this point I question everything being done under him.

edited - corrected some left out words and mis-used words. Apologies.

[Hadez]

In the same breath, I find online for as much as you might say "they wont let go of ...", the man has almost a fanboy like following as well. As I have mentioned a bunch of times, I have no skin the game in terms of political allegiance in the US, I am Australian, but Fauci has almost became a ping pong ball in the game of politics where one side denounces everything, and the other as I said fanboys him, that's what it looks like from the outside looking in. Does the man deserve all the critique levelled at him, probably not, but does he need to be held accountable for mistakes like every other high paid figure in a key decision making role ? Of course his actions need to be evaluated.

I think people who are in his full support would say something like, no, we are on the side of science. And yes, as you mention Can, science is ever evolving, and the science will always call on that when a change emerges, that is 100% fair. But when the advice is dished out and the science reported on intially, whether by a third party, or from the primary source, it is always spoken on with such certainty, until those changes do emerge, and then all of sudden when past quotes, comments, and actions are called into question, again rightfully so, the science is evolving line is spoken. So what has science ever done to us that is so wrong ? I think maybe speaking in certainty on uncertain topics, then when changes emerge falling back to a position of this is how science works, it's evolving and we cannot be held accountable for past remarks due to this process, that is what calls individuals and the process into question, and rightfully so.

I just got into a situation that is going to take up a lot of my time so I apologize for bringing things up that are long paths that require a lot effort, time and thought without offering the patience and guidance to help people through it. I will do my best with the time I have.

When it comes to science I would suggest people take a hard look at what is considered science specially when it comes to health treatment. Who decides what is the best path and what path we should not take. What conflicts of interests do these people have?

Remember science is decided by people. Every single person I know has the "human condition". Decisions made my people are not perfect. Maybe one day someone will be able to put the skill "Perfect" on their resume but I do not see it happening anytime in the near future.

I get after talking about bleach and other treatments it is easy to push everything aside for the sole hero "vaccines". The vaccine solution is simple...easy...under patent protection.

People really should be asking....why did the people who decide health policy choose not to save lives with Ivermectin? Its antiviral properties where discovered in a lab in Australia in April 2020. After data was gathered a non-profit group of doctors suggested it to be used to treat Covid19 on people in Oct 2020. Many countries around the world are beating Covid19 with Ivermectin right now and have been doing it since 2020. Btw if you decide to look into it by all means use google...also see how different search results are with another search engine. I like duckduckgo but there are many to pick from. By all means suggest one and I will try it.

How many lives could have been saved?

As an essential worker I did not get fully vaccinated until April 2021. My mother who is 64 did not get fully vaccinated until May 2021. My uncle who is 60 did not get fully vaccinated until May 2021 in a different state than my mother. My friend of 35 years who works in a grocery story getting exposed to 2,000 people a day did not get fully vaccinated until last week March 2021. These are all people who got vaccinated asap. They took the first appointment available.

How many lives could have been saved from Oct 2020 through May 2021?

Why did the science decide to hold back a life saving treatment? It was not until Jan 2021 that the NIH went from recommending against using Ivermectin to just being neutral on it. Neither suggesting it be used nor recommending it not be used. This was only changed after the non-profit doctors when to the Senate on Dec 8 2020 and court decisions were made forcing doctors to use it.

Why did a family have to go to court to force as hospital to use Ivermectin after it has been shown to work on that particular patient?

Science is decided by humans....and humans are subject to the various human conditions.

[Hadez]

Well, no. I do not think the Spike Protein from my COVID vaccine is dangerous. I think you, among many others are missing the point on spike proteins. Take that back, I haven't read much into this thread recently for my sanity, so I'm unclear on what your stance or education on the matter is.

To answer your other question bluntly - COVID caused/causing a pandemic because people were (are) stupid. But that is a different (and old) topic...

Back to the spike protein:

Spike proteins from COVID-19 vaccination (the shot) behave differently than the spike proteins from natural COVID-19 infections (the virus).


Here is a nice reputable source to help break down the differences:

https://health-desk.org/articles/wha...id-19-vaccines

Another good and interesting read from this medicinal chemist on the behavior of spike protein:

https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipelin...pike-protein-b



Hadez, there ya have it. You asked for it. Some data and supported science. Science is COOL. Now please, find me a scientific source about the Spike Protein FROM THE VACCINE and how is wrecking havoc on people in the Pandemic. And please, do not share that garbage of those two articles from Bridle's misjudged and misrepresented theories....

So again, I'll repeat my stance:

No - I do NOT think the Spike Protein from a vaccination is dangerous. In comparison TO the vaccine, the spike protein from the original virus IS dangerous (example: 2020 pandemic).

The Canadian viral immunologist Byram Bridle is wrong and has spread false theories and rumors which have been widely shared throughout the web and social media regarding Spike Proteins.

First I apologize for not wording my first comment better that seemed to trigger you. I tried multiples to say I was not going to speak against the vaccines but in my first statement I did so I guess I am on this path that you kept me on even when I raised the white flag saying I did not want to speak against them.

So lets talk about the science .. data...and evidence.

Please show me the evidence and data that says the vaccine is safe after 2 years of having the Pfizer or Moderna Vaccine? You can not because it does not exist. No one know the side effects on 2 years or longer. Soon we will have the data on the trials after 18 months but right now we do not even know 18 months after taking the vaccine what the side effects are.

We are the experiment. We are right now gathering the 2-6 month data on a large scale. People in the trials will be coming up on the 18 month data.

You want to explain to people why the vaccines do not have normal authorization to be used but they have emergency authorization? We all know why we been sold the vaccine but what short cuts were taken to get us the vaccines this quickly in terms of evidence to prove they are safe? You seem to be willing to quote many sources on why we should take the vaccine do you have any source at all on why we should maybe think twice?

Your posts on this subject have made your feelings clear on this issue. It is also pretty clear to me you do not put much effort into seeing both sides of the story.

[johnlimburg]

I expressed myself poorly. I should have stuck with "Delta is dividing up folks, vaccinated vs unvaccinated". And the side to be on is vaccinated. It's common knowledge here, so sorry for that. If I talk to folks....which by the way is the old fashioned way to learn, it's because a big network of well read, intelligent folks is a pretty learned one. You do not have to look up studies for everything. You talk with your best buds, some neighbours, maybe a sister or brother, the local grocery person, the dentist....and within 24 hours u realize the situation. Yes, include in that some CNN, local news and national news. (I don't watch Fox). But it's obvious what the state of covid is these days. And whether it's as deadly or more deadly I guess I did not spend much time digging for that, because if hospitals are taking in increasing numbers of covid patients in some locations, and they are unvaccinated almost in entirety, and there are many on intensive care, it becomes a no brainer evaluation. It is not my interest as it is yours, because any stress on the healthcare system, including IC and deaths is a bad situation. And it's apparently those who do not buy in to what is a very easy solution, one that you need nothing more than an ordinary brain and an arm to absorb. Why are the folks following the rules having to keep dealing with covid, because people with "rights" and some who are into false invented theories, and people who are not paying attention, keep this flame alive??

I will remind you and anyone else who cares to listen....the goal for each of us is to protect ourselves and one another. But apparently the old days when folks fought for one another, thought nothing about sacrificing for the greater good, are sliding away. I would hate to share a bunker at war with some of these dudes. Seriously, and back to the point I am trying to end with. Too many could care less about others, especially the elderly and those who were compromised in terms of immune systems and such. It was disgusting hearing them care less. "But hey, I'm good, so life is fine."

But what many of the selfish ones missed out was that the long term effects of covid may still be a factor, so by leaving your guard down, you may have gambled unwisely. And as for not vaccinating now, with an "abundance" of information that proves Delta feasts on the unvaccinated, and not just elderly/compromised, it has become almost a joke in my circle of contacts. There are some (in this world) who can not get vaccinated for various reasons, and I feel for them. But whether more folks are dying should not be the concern. It should be:
- why are the numbers rising again, anywhere?
- why risk lives when vaccines are clearly the saviour?
- why even think about getting covid, with the repeated evidence of potential long term damage to organs?
- when are folks going to let the healthcare system and its employees get a break from covid, when they have so many others to catch up with? Do you know how many of us may have waited too long to get that surgery we needed, maybe some procedure that seemed like no big deal at the time, but has now flared up, have missed an appointment or two that may have caught the cancer or other disease early enough to be reckoned with?

I have many other questions, but hey, you will probably say I am deflecting or not answering. But I think, in all of this, the things I state are all that matters. It's all dangerous as far as we know, and it is a killer still.

Recently we heard (there's the wimpy word again), that a friend of a close person to us was put on intensive care.....the person was fairly young, and fairly healthy, and yes, anti vaxx. I hope that person ended up ok. I will "hear" about it soon I am sure. But I "heard" it so it might not be valid.

That is fine, but an opportunity to discuss and ask questions in a forum is no place to get defensive about being asked a simple question about the topic at hand, I just prefer to not have someone assign a whole bunch of other points to what I said based on asking about one aspect of a conversation. I think you will find we do agree on a lot of things as I have said before, I just like to ask questions and try to see it from both sides as opposed to denouncing anyone who feels differently. Anyway, moving on from that conversation as the data does seem to indicate as I said that the Delta strain while more contagious isn't as deadly right now in certain areas around the world.

Onto lockdowns, I saw an interesting quote from a Canadian person online who said something like, Australia and Canada are in competition for the award of who the most authoritarian government is, so I am assuming rules are quite strict where you are as well, and there is some dissent growing as a result ? We have just had further restrictions placed on us since we last spoke with one of them being the construction industry as a whole in the Sydney region, our largest population centre, is completely shut down.

Not knowing the specifics of Canada's situation, you seem quite convinced that lockdowns are still the way to move forward if people are not vaccinated, as the science and health advice continues to say? But science doesn't account for the behavior and human element involved that is affecting masses of people right now. Some could fairly argue that might be even more important and the damage being done with incredibly strict lockdowns might be worse than the effects of Covid itself, I am not, but the conversation isn't even allowed to occur, zero discourse on the topic, that is what irks me. Look, I watched a lengthy video of a small business owner yesterday emotional, talking about suicide, because as a creative she has been hung out to dry. A young man from the inner city where the lockdown and outbreak kicked off committed suicide as he was alone, didn't feel he had any support and is now gone forever. This leads me to your comments about the "old days" where people "fought for each other".

These comments are off-base, people still do. You might see the other people on the other side of your stance as not fighting for others, or as simply selfish, I did at the start, but they have people standing next to them as well, and I didn't initially understand it from my point of privilege. I think as a whole people really do care for each other, it's just how you see the other side of where you are standing that makes you think that in my opinion. I know, they are not following the science, the other people don't want a vaccine, I get where you are coming from, and the mask refusal thing I always found petty. But I don't think that necessarily means they don't care about other human life, they just want to live theirs, that doesn't mean they are horrible people.

I will call myself out here actually. I don't mind the lockdown in the regard that it has not affected my work, I have recently bought a house, I have a beautiful partner with who I am more than happy to be in lockdown with, and her work hasn't been affected either. So for me, this hasn't been horrible, it's more of an annoyance where I can't see friends or go out for dinner, pathetic I know, but I have the privilege of being financially secure, as I get the feeling you do as well. But those who are alone, who have lost jobs, who don't have a secure financial future, you cannot just say they have no regard for anyone else, because not everyone can see that everything in the distant future will be okay, those people do deserve a voice and need to be heard out with their rightful anger they have for the governments around the world playing with their lives, which is what they are doing.

I do think you bring up a great point regarding why do people who have followed the rules regarding vaccines have to deal with the consequences of nanny-state governments who lockdown first and think through it later, due to people refusing to go and get the vaccine. An interesting one to unpack because if the evidence is there that the vaccination can prevent mass spreading and the negative effects of Covid including the Delta strain, do you allow society to return to it's normal function? If the vaccinated are protected, a public health warning regarding the risks the unvaccinated take by being in public can be invested in, and that is a risk they take and the government acknowledges. That way the unvaccinated only have themselves to blame, and the choice is there, what would be your take on that ? As a vaccinated citizen who has mentioned his whole close network of friends and family are also vaccinated, and as someone who seems beyond confident in the vaccine, I don't see the issue there ?

Finally, if you have questions about where I stand, I would be more than happy to have them asked and discuss further, I would prefer that and wouldn't call that deflecting.

[CanDB]

That is fine, but an opportunity to discuss and ask questions in a forum is no place to get defensive about being asked a simple question about the topic at hand, I just prefer to not have someone assign a whole bunch of other points to what I said based on asking about one aspect of a conversation. I think you will find we do agree on a lot of things as I have said before, I just like to ask questions and try to see it from both sides as opposed to denouncing anyone who feels differently. Anyway, moving on from that conversation as the data does seem to indicate as I said that the Delta strain while more contagious isn't as deadly right now in certain areas around the world.

Onto lockdowns, I saw an interesting quote from a Canadian person online who said something like, Australia and Canada are in competition for the award of who the most authoritarian government is, so I am assuming rules are quite strict where you are as well, and there is some dissent growing as a result ? We have just had further restrictions placed on us since we last spoke with one of them being the construction industry as a whole in the Sydney region, our largest population centre, is completely shut down.

Not knowing the specifics of Canada's situation, you seem quite convinced that lockdowns are still the way to move forward if people are not vaccinated, as the science and health advice continues to say? But science doesn't account for the behavior and human element involved that is affecting masses of people right now. Some could fairly argue that might be even more important and the damage being done with incredibly strict lockdowns might be worse than the effects of Covid itself, I am not, but the conversation isn't even allowed to occur, zero discourse on the topic, that is what irks me. Look, I watched a lengthy video of a small business owner yesterday emotional, talking about suicide, because as a creative she has been hung out to dry. A young man from the inner city where the lockdown and outbreak kicked off committed suicide as he was alone, didn't feel he had any support and is now gone forever. This leads me to your comments about the "old days" where people "fought for each other".

These comments are off-base, people still do. You might see the other people on the other side of your stance as not fighting for others, or as simply selfish, I did at the start, but they have people standing next to them as well, and I didn't initially understand it from my point of privilege. I think as a whole people really do care for each other, it's just how you see the other side of where you are standing that makes you think that in my opinion. I know, they are not following the science, the other people don't want a vaccine, I get where you are coming from, and the mask refusal thing I always found petty. But I don't think that necessarily means they don't care about other human life, they just want to live theirs, that doesn't mean they are horrible people.

I will call myself out here actually. I don't mind the lockdown in the regard that it has not affected my work, I have recently bought a house, I have a beautiful partner with who I am more than happy to be in lockdown with, and her work hasn't been affected either. So for me, this hasn't been horrible, it's more of an annoyance where I can't see friends or go out for dinner, pathetic I know, but I have the privilege of being financially secure, as I get the feeling you do as well. But those who are alone, who have lost jobs, who don't have a secure financial future, you cannot just say they have no regard for anyone else, because not everyone can see that everything in the distant future will be okay, those people do deserve a voice and need to be heard out with their rightful anger they have for the governments around the world playing with their lives, which is what they are doing.

I do think you bring up a great point regarding why do people who have followed the rules regarding vaccines have to deal with the consequences of nanny-state governments who lockdown first and think through it later, due to people refusing to go and get the vaccine. An interesting one to unpack because if the evidence is there that the vaccination can prevent mass spreading and the negative effects of Covid including the Delta strain, do you allow society to return to it's normal function? If the vaccinated are protected, a public health warning regarding the risks the unvaccinated take by being in public can be invested in, and that is a risk they take and the government acknowledges. That way the unvaccinated only have themselves to blame, and the choice is there, what would be your take on that ? As a vaccinated citizen who has mentioned his whole close network of friends and family are also vaccinated, and as someone who seems beyond confident in the vaccine, I don't see the issue there ?

Finally, if you have questions about where I stand, I would be more than happy to have them asked and discuss further, I would prefer that and wouldn't call that deflecting.

You remind me a bit of a friend who when contacting our group asks a number of questions in a simple post to the group, to which we very seldom respond to in entirety anymore, given we are basically moving on to another story. Haha...one of my other buds recently told him that there's this new thing he should check in to....the internet. Sure, we don't all respond to every post we make, so it is not really rude, because we all do it. That's a friendship situation, though once in a while I think we could do a little better. More seriously, maybe some questions are not so much questions but a form of affirmation, I do it. I make a point and ask a question, but my question is really just confirming my point.

You sound pretty bright, and I think we would do much better face to face. In some of these threads I do not always follow up on every question directed toward me, as I'm sure you don't, given I feel like there is a lengthy process in some cases to ever possibly conclude on a topic, especially like this one. I may have put you in that category without much else on my mind, and if so, sorry.

As for good discussion, I am old school in some ways, because there are some topics that seem pretty clear to me, and I guess when others keep at me, at some point I get a bit uninterested. I believe strongly about some basics about covid, not necessarily repetitive lockdowns, but wise living combined with respectfulness towards others. And I now believe strongly...that being vaccinated is 100% the right thing to do. Others will poke away, as they have done from day one, but maybe it just seems too simple to me now. It's a 2 + 2 = 4 situation. No conspiracy theory, or partisan based argument will get through anymore. It's become basic fact. Vaccinate.

So if I did not respond to your question about deaths specifically it's because it may have reminded me of my friend, who asks that extra question or two that we prefer he looks up. But that's me. So not trying to be rude to you.

As for Canadian authoritarianism, I don't see us being governed quite like that. I think we have been slow and cautious overall, but even so, each province had their ability to put a twist on their territories. Mostly I agree with the approach in Canada though, but had some issues with our local province's approach with regard to the 2nd and 3rd waves. We were literally the worst province/state in terms of basic covid stats for a period of time, after being almost covid free last summer. But the vaccines here have rolled out more effectively, since we received ample supply, and our vaccination rates locally and nationally are good. For example, Manitoba has a one dose stat of 77.4% and a fully vaccinated stat of 61.1% for fully vaccinated (for all eligible residents). The fully vaccinated stat has been rising over a per cent a day for some time, though it of course will slow down as it approaches the one dose level.

Anyway...be cool.

[dizzolve]

As for the stats, they speak for themselves. So look em up next time. I guess I stop presenting stats when it appears to be common knowledge. And as far as I can tell, the big issue these days is the Delta variant, and its impacts on unvaccinated people. And it may be taxing the hospital staff/resources, and therefore becomes a burden. And for me, it's so simple to deduce....if you want to minimize your risks with Delta, get vaccinated. People are dying. So if I get a little lazy on the numbers, it's because this is almost a "no brainer" problem (though I do not like using the term).

Nowadays people just call stats ........ "fake news" if it doesn't align with their philosophy. It's sad times when reality is no longer the bottom line. Media will tell you down is up and black is white .......... but what stuns me is that people believe it JUST because it's their tribe that's telling them

This country has been devoid of real leadership for many years now and a world wide pandemic didn't help

[CanDB]

Nowadays people just call stats ........ "fake news" if it doesn't align with their philosophy. It's sad times when reality is no longer the bottom line. Media will tell you down is up and black is white .......... but what stuns me is that people believe it JUST because it's their tribe that's telling them

This country has been devoid of real leadership for many years now and a world wide pandemic didn't help

It's truly sad dizz that fact, data and diligent analysis is not respected by those who choose to call things fake only because it does not suit their purpose. Do you buy stocks based on party or do you research the future value of that stock? Do you make business decisions based what your "tribe" says, or do you study the business environment and use all relevant information you have in making those decisions? Do you choose a medical specialist based on who they voted for, or seek out the individual who is the best you can get based on medical/customer feedback?

If a group, or much worse, a large part of a nation used the political/tribal process versus the scientific/analytical/data world to approach important matters (even lower importance) on a regular basis, the outcome will be far short of expectation. And if you continue that format, and often stop progress because you never agree with your political opponent, your nation will eventually fall far behind the leading countries. Good decisions matter. In time, they will differentiate you from others.

Those who introduced "fake news" to the dictionary and use it regularly like it because they can make anything up and get away with it within their team. It is also beneficial to them because it gives them license to own the narrative while falsely accusing others of making up news based on fluff and stuff. Heck if I was a fake news guy, I'd love it because I could just say almost anything, without lifting a finger of research/diligent process in order to ascertain the truth. That's what's missing....the truth.

Growing up, people who made up stuff and denied facts were usually confronted, and usually either laughed at and/or ignored. We'd say, "shut that dude up", or "don't listen to that liar", but nowadays it seems more fashionable. What the heck happened over the last little while??

Hopefully the younger generations will denounce this lazy, sometimes cult like approach....in terms of leaders who can make up anything and deny anything without real evidence. Because for those who follow, and those unfortunately who oppose the lies and laziness, it will no doubt set you back. Plus it's just a pathetic way of living.

[Hadez]

Nowadays people just call stats ........ "fake news" if it doesn't align with their philosophy. It's sad times when reality is no longer the bottom line. Media will tell you down is up and black is white .......... but what stuns me is that people believe it JUST because it's their tribe that's telling them

This country has been devoid of real leadership for many years now and a world wide pandemic didn't help

The best thing that has happened to the USA since 2016 imo is people are paying more attention to the details on how things work. What I find really interesting is there are so many different reasons why people were not paying attention before but now they are.

I am a metrics/numbers person in Aerospace and in the very first college class on stats we were taught how leaving some data out...or leaving some outliers in the data...can then we used to inaccurately represent what the data means. This was the first class I had in college about statistics.

Problem is most media is cooperate controlled. That in itself is going to lead to information flow problems. While corporations are very good at making a profit as earning a profit is their Prime Directive there will be times that telling the story as is will not get the profit desired and either things will be left out or things will be added to get people more interested in watching.

I am not going to talk about how easy it is for wealth and power to influence cooperate media but you better believe it happens. This long enough already.

One example how the media I think most people here trust got it wrong and some of the reasons coming out why it happened.

Back to Covid19...the side of media probably most posters on here thought was "correct" for the better part of 2020 was saying how bad it was to suggest Covid19 was man made. People were getting banned on social media for suggesting Covid19 was man made. I personally herd the science in June 2020 about the evidence on why it was man made. That science got more popular in Jan 2021 when the same person went on the Bill Maur show. Fauci e-mails reveal he was in discussions before the Lockdowns in early 2020 on how Covid19 was looking man made but publicly saying it was from natural zoonotic origin.. People from the media are saying they were coming down hard on the man made theory in large part because of what Fauci was saying. Hearings in Congress that Fauci refused to attend list some not so good looking timelines of Fauci e-mails on this subject imo. To be totally fair one side of the country seems to have no interest in participating in this discussion so we not getting their side.

The story about why this was happening is still developing. We are currently hearing one side of the story and the other side is just trying to say nothing to see here.

And if one is just listening to one set of cooperate media not only getting one side of the story but they are getting a very biased version of one side of the story.

Most people do not even know of some of the independent news sources trying their best just to report things.

[Peerless]

First I apologize for not wording my first comment better that seemed to trigger you. I tried multiples to say I was not going to speak against the vaccines but in my first statement I did so I guess I am on this path that you kept me on even when I raised the white flag saying I did not want to speak against them.

So lets talk about the science .. data...and evidence.

Please show me the evidence and data that says the vaccine is safe after 2 years of having the Pfizer or Moderna Vaccine? You can not because it does not exist. No one know the side effects on 2 years or longer. Soon we will have the data on the trials after 18 months but right now we do not even know 18 months after taking the vaccine what the side effects are.

We are the experiment. We are right now gathering the 2-6 month data on a large scale. People in the trials will be coming up on the 18 month data.

You want to explain to people why the vaccines do not have normal authorization to be used but they have emergency authorization? We all know why we been sold the vaccine but what short cuts were taken to get us the vaccines this quickly in terms of evidence to prove they are safe? You seem to be willing to quote many sources on why we should take the vaccine do you have any source at all on why we should maybe think twice?

Your posts on this subject have made your feelings clear on this issue. It is also pretty clear to me you do not put much effort into seeing both sides of the story.

Wait wait wait - Your first and original question to me (in which you later on edited after I quoted and replied to you by the way...)

So you do not think the Spike Protein is dangerous? Why exactly do you think Covid19 is causing the Pandemic?

Again tell me a science source you trust and I am sure I can find something there about the Spike Protein and how is wrecking havoc on people in the Pandemic.

And I answered your question. There are different mechanisms of how a spike protein in a virus works, verses a spike protein in a vaccine. That WAS your question, was it not?

As for your question about data on the vaccine two years, five years, ten years down the line if it has any major side affects is irrational at the least. Of course I can't provide data on something that hasn't happened yet? That question is almost as baseless as someone foolishly saying something like "the virus is just going to go away" on its own.

So to answer your question (since you seemed to have a hard time initially replying to mine): I don't have an answer. But I do know from reading literature and research that besides everything about previous mRNA vaccines being safe, and side effects usually showing up quickly, there isn’t really any biologic plausibility for mRNA to do any damage. While the "long term effects" for an individual vaccine isn't able to be studied before roll out (duh), our understanding of vaccination history and immunology generally fills in those gaps. It's the short-term reactions that we're most concerned with.

To break it down even further:

1. Unlike other vaccines, there isn’t any Covid (killed/attenuated) in this vaccine. All you have is mRNA data, which are instructions to make a protein. In this case, this is the spike protein. Normally mRNA is made in the nucleus and goes out to the ribosomes where proteins are made, and then the mRNA is degraded. Here we are just bringing the mRNA to the ribosome from outside. mRNA doesn’t have the capability of entering the nucleus and making changes to the DNA, where there would be potential to do damage.
2. mRNA is super unstable and degrades really quickly (in a matter of hours). That’s why the Pfizer vaccine has to be held at such a low temperature, because otherwise the mRNA would degrade and be ineffective. That short time window + the lack of its ability to enter the nucleus really rules out any risk of significant side effects outside of allergic reactions.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ines/mrna.html

And I take offense to your last statement on how I'm not putting much effort into seeing both sides. Just because I'm a large advocate for interventions based on science, doesn't mean I'm not putting effort into YOUR side or YOUR beliefs. I have seen first hand what happens when you don't follow the scientific recommendations. I - believed in masks, social distancing, and taking the vaccine.

I have worked with many COVID + patients who were sedated/paralyzed with more tubes and lines coming out of them than you would ever imagine. I have seen people who have come in without being vaccinated and had decompensated to the point where they were BEGGING to breathe, as we rushed to shove a breathing tube down their throat to live. I have been yelled at by families of COVID victims that we didn't do enough, or cared enough when literally - we were out of options. Before vaccines were out - I was putting my health on the line for the people not following the recommending guidelines - in which I then put my wife and family at risk at home.

YOUR posts on this subject have made YOUR feelings clear on the issue. I have replied OFTEN to the side opposite of mine on during this pandemic; not not just with replies from my words I've written, but from factual data that I have repeatedly shared.... Data that somehow and someway gets ignored.

Don't tell me I'm not putting much effort into seeing both sides. I have read it and researched it through my spare time. I've listened to doctors, scientist, and researchers (on BOTH fences - everything from hydroxychloroquine being pushed as a COVID cure along with herd immunity solving all the issues). And through my profession, I have seen what COVID can do to a person - how it has literally killed someone.

[johnlimburg]

You remind me a bit of a friend who when contacting our group asks a number of questions in a simple post to the group, to which we very seldom respond to in entirety anymore, given we are basically moving on to another story. Haha...one of my other buds recently told him that there's this new thing he should check in to....the internet. Sure, we don't all respond to every post we make, so it is not really rude, because we all do it. That's a friendship situation, though once in a while I think we could do a little better. More seriously, maybe some questions are not so much questions but a form of affirmation, I do it. I make a point and ask a question, but my question is really just confirming my point.

You sound pretty bright, and I think we would do much better face to face. In some of these threads I do not always follow up on every question directed toward me, as I'm sure you don't, given I feel like there is a lengthy process in some cases to ever possibly conclude on a topic, especially like this one. I may have put you in that category without much else on my mind, and if so, sorry.

As for good discussion, I am old school in some ways, because there are some topics that seem pretty clear to me, and I guess when others keep at me, at some point I get a bit uninterested. I believe strongly about some basics about covid, not necessarily repetitive lockdowns, but wise living combined with respectfulness towards others. And I now believe strongly...that being vaccinated is 100% the right thing to do. Others will poke away, as they have done from day one, but maybe it just seems too simple to me now. It's a 2 + 2 = 4 situation. No conspiracy theory, or partisan based argument will get through anymore. It's become basic fact. Vaccinate.

So if I did not respond to your question about deaths specifically it's because it may have reminded me of my friend, who asks that extra question or two that we prefer he looks up. But that's me. So not trying to be rude to you.

As for Canadian authoritarianism, I don't see us being governed quite like that. I think we have been slow and cautious overall, but even so, each province had their ability to put a twist on their territories. Mostly I agree with the approach in Canada though, but had some issues with our local province's approach with regard to the 2nd and 3rd waves. We were literally the worst province/state in terms of basic covid stats for a period of time, after being almost covid free last summer. But the vaccines here have rolled out more effectively, since we received ample supply, and our vaccination rates locally and nationally are good. For example, Manitoba has a one dose stat of 77.4% and a fully vaccinated stat of 61.1% for fully vaccinated (for all eligible residents). The fully vaccinated stat has been rising over a per cent a day for some time, though it of course will slow down as it approaches the one dose level.

Anyway...be cool.

That is fine, it isn't that big of a deal, just thought it was fair in the discussion. I didn't see you as being rude either, I just thought it was conveniently ignored due to it not actually lining up with the doom and gloom story line being pushed around this Delta variant, which upon further digging, it doesn't.

[CanDB]

That is fine, it isn't that big of a deal, just thought it was fair in the discussion. I didn't see you as being rude either, I just thought it was conveniently ignored due to it not actually lining up with the doom and gloom story line being pushed around this Delta variant, which upon further digging, it doesn't.

To be clear, I agree that if the death rates decline, regardless of the type of infection, it is less worrisome. But my initial and ongoing focus has been on the cases, the trends, and the % cases that are linked to the unvaccinated. My basic belief is that, if not for the unvaccinated, the healthcare system would be almost down to normal caseload for this disease, and able to get back to taking care of all the non covid medical workload....like tests, procedures, and most important, surgeries. My goodness, the wait time where I live for hip surgery is excessive these days. My neighbour and my buddy both got hip surgery recently after long waits, and ONLY because of cancellation/postponements. And though I think hip surgery is very important, think of all the more serious surgeries that have been delayed or more likely, failed to be diagnosed....and yes, all the normal activities that would typically lead doctors to accelerate situations, like heart and cancer related symptoms. Those that waited too long for assessment due to hospital overload.

The covid toll has been and continues to weigh down the healthcare world. And sadly, because it overloaded facilities/resources, it denied far too many people of necessary medical help, which resulted in further complications, and either more deaths or more severe long term disability.

[johnlimburg]

To be clear, I agree that if the death rates decline, regardless of the type of infection, it is less worrisome. But my initial and ongoing focus has been on the cases, the trends, and the % cases that are linked to the unvaccinated. My basic belief is that, if not for the unvaccinated, the healthcare system would be almost down to normal caseload for this disease, and able to get back to taking care of all the non covid medical workload....like tests, procedures, and most important, surgeries. My goodness, the wait time where I live for hip surgery is excessive these days. My neighbour and my buddy both got hip surgery recently after long waits, and ONLY because of cancellation/postponements. And though I think hip surgery is very important, think of all the more serious surgeries that have been delayed or more likely, failed to be diagnosed....and yes, all the normal activities that would typically lead doctors to accelerate situations, like heart and cancer related symptoms. Those that waited too long for assessment due to hospital overload.

The covid toll has been and continues to weigh down the healthcare world. And sadly, because it overloaded facilities/resources, it denied far too many people of necessary medical help, which resulted in further complications, and either more deaths or more severe long term disability.

I guess that is the biggest fear of going with an approach like Singapore has announced they will be doing. I believe they won't be reporting on daily numbers, and are going to treat it as an everyday sickness moving forward. Singapore was widely praised early on during the pandemic as one of the best nations in their response measures, so it could be interesting to see what is in store for them over the next month or so, could be the blueprint in how to actually live in a Covid society, as opposed to wrapping up in cotton wool and hiding.

Also, this hasn't really been a reality to date in Australia, with such low numbers and deaths, the fear has been there that it could happen, but the stress on the economy and workforce as a result of lockdowns has far outweighed any pressure on the health care system, that would be exclusive to here though I'd imagine. We are scheduled to leave this extremely harsh lockdown next week on Friday, but the lockdowns simply are not working this time around. Case numbers have peaked, and they have remained steady, so it will interesting to see what happens in the near future.