Corona virus

[CanDB]

Hospitals knew there would be a second wave the minute this pandemic hit America and started to spread like a wildfire back in early spring.

You want to know what happened to my hospital, UW Madison? We decided to nix all elective and non-emergent cases. We decided to nix all outpatient and outpatient short stay surgeries. We sent health care workers - Nurses, aids, lab, RT, Radiology, etc either to COVID units / testing sites / or forced home with the ability to burn precious vacation time, or without pay. Did you read that? We literally forced workers to go home - to lose hours, benefits, money - because we had to prep for an influx of patients. "Sorry nurse Jackie, I know you've worked on this plastics/reconstructive unit for 25 years - but we're shutting your floor down. You can either go to COVID land, or go home by using your limited vacation hours, or go without pay." Thanks.....

The hospital (among many others) have lost so much money - that fiscally, no matter what we do - we will end up in the red in 2020. Long gone are the bonuses that we used to get. Pay raise? HA! See ya!!!!

Yeah, the health care industry BEGGED for people to follow the recommended guidelines to protect and prevent the spread of this virus. Wear a friggin' mask, spread out. We were able to RAMP up testing and could identify who carried the virus. We begged for those positive folks to stay home, away from the hospital - away from anyone to prevent the spread.

It worked - it worked for a while. But people got bored, annoyed, fed up. They had to "live" and enjoy life, party, socialize, etc.

So yeah - people started to go out again, right before the winter when people just plainly get sick.

So what were we doing to get ready? We were begging and trying to educate self entitled Americans to take precautions - but as you can see now, it clearly didn't work.

Don't forget - ER's in America can't turn anyone away. We can teach, educate, nag, whatever... if people don't listen, they'll do whatever they want / get hurt or sick, and come to the ER for help. It's sorta like telling an obese man with high cholesterol, with a history of coronary artery disease - to stop being a dimwit and eat right, exercise, etc. But he decides he doesn't wanna... so big macs, whoppers, crunch wrap supremes it is. And then one day, he has a heart attack and comes into the ER in V-fib. Well, I guess now I'll try and save your life - even though I tried to educate you to prevent this exact moment from happening.

COVID is sorta like that....

You keep talking about how peoples lives are ruined. People are hurting financially, emotionally. They are depressed....

Uh hello ---- do you think, I'm not hurting? Do you think people working in hospitals are ENJOYING this, and not STRUGGLING?

Capacity, in terms of staffing, is probably the biggest challenge that hospitals are facing right now. Nurses, doctors, etc are working long hours / forced into overtime / forced into shifts they weren't scheduled to take care of these sick patients. As we're seeing rates of infections rise in the community, we're seeing infections in the hospital community as well.

More than 1,000 hospitals across the United States are "critically" short on staff, and that's just staff COVID units. Don't forget, people still have traumas, heart attacks, strokes, etc. There is always need for ICU disposition (which is always tight), even before this pandemic.

But the many ICU units that used to house these types of patients, are overrun with COVID patients - and we're now in the process of converting other units into ICU units, but with a beaten down / and even poorly staffed nursing staff.

So I ask you - what has been done to take advantage of the sacrifice that was FORCED on the health care workers? Especially knowing that people weren't following recommended guidelines? Why should I put myself, my wife, my family at even greater risk when people who didn't follow rules KNEW what they should have done to protect themselves, and then decided not to anyway?

So you know, I take a little offense to your post about how "hospitals KNEW for 8 months this was gonna happen, why are they doing soooooo poorly or need so much help."

Forget you dude, you don't even have the slightest clue.

Thx for that Brent. Sorry that it is so hard on you folks. You deserve much, much better.

[Peerless]

Hospitals have known for 8 months there would be a 2nd wave in the fall...what have they been doing to get ready for the 2nd wave? People are struggling to live with their reduced wages that bought everyone time and flattened the curve....what has been done to take advantage of this sacrifice that was forced upon millions of people?.


If there does get to be a severe lack of hospital resources I hope people turn their attention to the hospital industry and ask...why was so little done with the sacrifices to buy that industry 8 months to prepare.

Hospitals knew there would be a second wave the minute this pandemic hit America and started to spread like a wildfire back in early spring.

You want to know what happened to my hospital, UW Madison? We decided to nix all elective and non-emergent cases. We decided to nix all outpatient and outpatient short stay surgeries. We sent health care workers - Nurses, physicians, anesthesia, aids, lab, RT, Radiology, etc either to COVID units / testing sites / or forced home with the ability to burn precious vacation time, or without pay. Did you read that? We literally forced workers to go home - to lose hours, benefits, money - because we had to prep for an influx of patients. "Sorry nurse Jackie, I know you've worked on this plastics/reconstructive unit for 25 years - but we're shutting your floor down. You can either go to COVID land, or go home by using your limited vacation hours, or go without pay." Thanks.....

The hospital (among many others) have lost so much money - that fiscally, no matter what we do - we will end up in the red in 2020. Long gone are the bonuses that we used to get. Pay raise? HA! See ya!!!!

Yeah, the health care industry BEGGED for people to follow the recommended guidelines to protect and prevent the spread of this virus. Wear a friggin' mask, spread out. We were able to RAMP up testing and could identify who carried the virus. We begged for those positive folks (especially asymptomatic) to stay home, away from the hospital - away from anyone to prevent the spread.

It worked - it worked for a while. Look at the charts, the numbers. We did flatten the curve. But people got bored, annoyed, fed up. They had to "live" and enjoy life, party, socialize, etc.

So yeah - people started to go out again, right before the winter when people just plainly get sick.

So what were we doing to get ready? We were begging and trying to educate self entitled Americans to take precautions - but as you can see now, it clearly didn't work.

Don't forget - ER's in America can't turn anyone away. We can teach, educate, nag, whatever... if people don't listen, they'll do whatever they want / get hurt or sick, and come to the ER for help. It's sorta like telling an obese man with high cholesterol, with a history of coronary artery disease - to stop being a dimwit and eat right, exercise, etc. But he decides he doesn't wanna... so big macs, whoppers, crunch wrap supremes it is. And then one day, he has a heart attack and comes into the ER in V-fib. Well, I guess now I'll try and save your life - even though I tried to educate you to prevent this exact moment from happening.

COVID is sorta like that....

You keep talking about how peoples lives are ruined. People are hurting financially, emotionally. They are depressed....

Uh hello ---- do you think, I'm not hurting? Do you think people working in hospitals are ENJOYING this, and not STRUGGLING? Do you think family life is all jolly-lolly>

Capacity, in terms of staffing, is probably the biggest challenge that hospitals are facing right now. Nurses, doctors, etc are working long hours / forced into overtime / forced into shifts they weren't scheduled to take care of these sick patients. As we're seeing rates of infections rise in the community, we're seeing infections in the hospital community as well.

If you start to lose your essential health care workers, then what? Who is going to take care of the ill? Can you imagine that? How awful.

More than 1,000 hospitals across the United States are "critically" short on staff, and that's just staffed COVID units. Don't forget, people still have traumas, heart attacks, strokes, etc. There is always need for ICU disposition (which is always tight), even before this pandemic.

But the many ICU units that used to house these types of patients, are overrun with COVID patients - and we're now in the process of converting other units into ICU units, but with a beaten down / and even poorly staffed nursing staff.

So I ask you - what has been done to take advantage of the sacrifice that was FORCED on the health care workers? Especially knowing that people weren't following recommended guidelines? Why should I put myself, my wife, my family at even greater risk when people who didn't follow rules KNEW what they should have done to protect themselves, and then decided not to anyway?

So you know, I take a little offense to your post about how "hospitals KNEW for 8 months this was gonna happen, why are they doing soooooo poorly or need so much help."

Forget you dude, you don't even have the slightest clue.

[CanDB]

It's much easier to take a lockdown stance when you're not the one getting financially ruined. But hey, selfishness.

Also, where was this outrage when millions were protesting in the streets? I guess folks forgot to be concerned??? Weird.

At any rate, hope everyone has a safe and happy Thanksgiving!

This seems like a bit of a common theme, and so I ask, do you think some of us are into "lockdowns", or illegal/unhealthy protest activity? I am good with protesting if done correctly, given what's at stake. But can I ask you, are you good with rallies, many minus masks or any kind of distancing? Or that it was seemingly ok'd by certain folks? Just askin.

[CanDB]

Yes I do notice what is going on. I do believe it and I do wear a mask.

For every 1 person I know who is affected by Covid in some way (directly or family) there are over a 100 who are directly affected by the struggle to feed their family and pay rent. These are people who wear masks and social distance but honestly Covid is not their prime concern right now. They are more worried about feeding their family and keeping a roof over their head to be concerned about a virus they may or may not get.... or a vaccine that does or does not come out...and if the vaccine does come out they may or may not get get for months.

FTR....given it seems some here keep misinterpreting our concerns about being cautious and translating it as "lockdown mania", some of us are merely saying use common sense, wear masks, distance, wash, etc. Nowhere do I see much of the "lockdown" demands from us. I leave that up to the proper authorities. If they think an area is out of control, it's their call. Same with schools, care homes, etc. What some of us are definitely saying is, to those who don't respect the pandemic and it's evil side, or talk like it's not as bad as we think, or some version of, "I have nothing to worry about, because I'm young and healthy", that's when I, at least, get concerned.

Maybe you aren't saying it, but there's this lockdown fever that is aimed towards those who are very much concerned about the trending and the illness and the death. And maybe everyone you know is being cautious, and if so, that's cool. But lets not ever, ever think us cautious ones are folks who want people to be unemployed/suffering from financial despair.

But again, at some point, if a specific area is off the charts, there has to be some form of change so that a quicker recovery can occur. Especially when the hospitals and healthcare workers are overtaxed. For the sake of lives and our jobs and so on.

And yes, the vaccine possibilities are very promising to me, given all that this pandemic has done to most countries around the world.

[EddieMac]

It's much easier to take a lockdown stance when you're not the one getting financially ruined. But hey, selfishness.

Also, where was this outrage when millions were protesting in the streets? I guess folks forgot to be concerned??? Weird.

At any rate, hope everyone has a safe and happy Thanksgiving!

Couldn’t have said that better myself.

[Lumiere]

Yes I do notice what is going on. I do believe it and I do wear a mask.

For every 1 person I know who is affected by Covid in some way (directly or family) there are over a 100 who are directly affected by the struggle to feed their family and pay rent. These are people who wear masks and social distance but honestly Covid is not their prime concern right now. They are more worried about feeding their family and keeping a roof over their head to be concerned about a virus they may or may not get.... or a vaccine that does or does not come out...and if the vaccine does come out they may or may not get get for months.

It's much easier to take a lockdown stance when you're not the one getting financially ruined. But hey, selfishness.

Also, where was this outrage when millions were protesting in the streets? I guess folks forgot to be concerned??? Weird.

At any rate, hope everyone has a safe and happy Thanksgiving!

[Hadez]

1) Are you folks watching the cases/hospitalizations/deaths of late?
2) Do you not think the situation is getting worse?
3) Do you think some folks are not helping?
4) I see the vaccine(s) as a major shift in this specific covid life, even if some smaller part of it stays around either because some do not want the vaccine or the virus changes or the vaccine is only temporary (which I doubt). I am talking significant shift in the right direction. It's possibly within just a few months. So in that regard, I suggest that folks honour their fellow man/woman/child, and make sure we minimize bad effects of what is going to likely happen for the next few months, with indoor activity/Thanksgiving/Christmas. Take care of yourself, and (I suggest) more responsibly, show respect for others.

Yes I do notice what is going on. I do believe it and I do wear a mask.

For every 1 person I know who is affected by Covid in some way (directly or family) there are over a 100 who are directly affected by the struggle to feed their family and pay rent. These are people who wear masks and social distance but honestly Covid is not their prime concern right now. They are more worried about feeding their family and keeping a roof over their head to be concerned about a virus they may or may not get.... or a vaccine that does or does not come out...and if the vaccine does come out they may or may not get get for months.

[Hadez]

Things are always "okay" for people until they are not. Then, when the music hits the fan, they'll need help and expect first class health care services.

Oh - you want to go to a crowded bar without a mask or spacing out, pay $7 for a Coors Lite, live and socialize to be...... happy?

Oh - you're now at home, with a 103 degree fever, with congestion and chest tightness... can't seem to be moving much air? Oh I guess you need help now...

Oh - you're in the ER, waiting for a bed upstairs for admission due to the maxed out units - while hooked up to a BiPap machine because your breathing is quite labored...

Oh - 8hrs later, you finally made it to the ICU. But unfortunately, you decompensated so bad waiting for bed - that we had to sedate/paralyze, and intubate.

Oh - there's me standing over you. Adjusting your vent settings. Increasing your paralytic because you keep biting down on you're breathing tube. Flipping you prone, so the bottom of you lungs can deflate. Putting me, and everyone else at risk for your carelessness...


Yeah, people are always "fine" and "dandy", almost "invincible" until crap hits the fan...

Of all my friends and associates I know about 5 people who are "fine" and "dandy" right now. Everyone else is figuring out how to get by with reduced income or no job at all. Some have resorted to eating diets from foods as cheap as possible. Some have resorted to working 2 jobs which means almost no sleep.

So yea....not so great diet....not so great sleeping patterns....lot of stress from struggling to get by. VERY healthy for the immune system I am sure you agree.

One person who is pretty good money wise is a traveling nurse who has made a lot of money but has LOTS of horror stories about the complete lack of preparation going on around the country in for the 2nd wave.

Hospitals have known for 8 months there would be a 2nd wave in the fall...what have they been doing to get ready for the 2nd wave? People are struggling to live with their reduced wages that bought everyone time and flattened the curve....what has been done to take advantage of this sacrifice that was forced upon millions of people?

If there does get to be a severe lack of hospital resources I hope people turn their attention to the hospital industry and ask...why was so little done with the sacrifices to buy that industry 8 months to prepare.

[CanDB]

Things are always "okay" for people until they are not. Then, when the music hits the fan, they'll need help and expect first class health care services.

Oh - you want to go to a crowded bar without a mask or spacing out, pay $7 for a Coors Lite, live and socialize to be...... happy?

Oh - you're now at home, with a 103 degree fever, with congestion and chest tightness... can't seem to be moving much air? Oh I guess you need help now...

Oh - you're in the ER, waiting for a bed upstairs for admission due to the maxed out units - while hooked up to a BiPap machine because your breathing is quite labored...

Oh - 8hrs later, you finally made it to the ICU. But unfortunately, you decompensated so bad waiting for bed - that we had to sedate/paralyze, and intubate.

Oh - there's me standing over you. Adjusting your vent settings. Increasing your paralytic because you keep biting down on you're breathing tube. Flipping you prone, so the bottom of you lungs can deflate. Putting me, and everyone else at risk for your carelessness...


Yeah, people are always "fine" and "dandy", almost "invincible" until crap hits the fan...

Or as you well know pal, it's someone you spread the virus to, without their consent, who is now clinging to their life. And as if older/vulnerable folks are better at dying.

Selfish/misguided/irresponsible....and I am keeping to the code because I want to say something else.

[Peerless]

Things are always "okay" for people until they are not. Then, when the music hits the fan, they'll need help and expect first class health care services.

Oh - you want to go to a crowded bar without a mask or spacing out, pay $7 for a Coors Lite, live and socialize to be...... happy?

Oh - you're now at home, with a 103 degree fever, with congestion and chest tightness... can't seem to be moving much air? Oh I guess you need help now...

Oh - you're in the ER, waiting for a bed upstairs for admission due to the maxed out units - while hooked up to a BiPap machine because your breathing is quite labored...

Oh - 8hrs later, you finally made it to the ICU. But unfortunately, you decompensated so bad while waiting for a bed upstairs - that we had to sedate/paralyze, and intubate.

Oh - there's me standing over you. Adjusting your vent settings. Increasing your paralytic because you keep biting down on your breathing tube. Flipping you prone, so the bottom of you lungs can deflate. Putting me, and everyone else at risk for your carelessness...


Yeah, people are always "fine" and "dandy", almost "invincible" until crap hits the fan...

[CanDB]

I agree.

This thing is not going away ever. Just like other forms of the Coronavirus have become common colds that we now have to deal with Covid 19 is going to become a perm things we all have to deal with.

There is really no good reason to force people into unemployment / no insurance, force people into making less money and soon to be forcing people into getting evicted. This is what happens when businesses are forced to close.

1) Are you folks watching the cases/hospitalizations/deaths of late?
2) Do you not think the situation is getting worse?
3) Do you think some folks are not helping?
4) I see the vaccine(s) as a major shift in this specific covid life, even if some smaller part of it stays around either because some do not want the vaccine or the virus changes or the vaccine is only temporary (which I doubt). I am talking significant shift in the right direction. It's possibly within just a few months. So in that regard, I suggest that folks honour their fellow man/woman/child, and make sure we minimize bad effects of what is going to likely happen for the next few months, with indoor activity/Thanksgiving/Christmas. Take care of yourself, and (I suggest) more responsibly, show respect for others.

[Hadez]

I've stayed away from this thread because I don't want to create enemies or start fights. I'm not here now to do so......

I have consistently referred to this virus as similar to the flu. For most if not all people who get the flu get similar like symptoms. Right now this coronavirus effects so many people in different ways. Most have ZERO effects or just mild fever and body aches, like getting a cold. Numbers of survival are still EXTREMEY high. The flu ( which magically has disappeared ) kills people too....yet we live with it. People take vaccines for it every year and every year it stills pops up and deaths happen, unfortunately.

We can live with this virus and still go about our daily lives. The vaccine will come and some will and won't take it and that's ok. I have never taken the flu vaccine. I've lived 40 years on this earth and have gotten by just fine. I'm not going to take the Corona vaccine and you know what...things will be ok.

Business can and should stay open. Shutting down business has such an emotional effect on people. Financially it is in so many cases impossible to come back from. Then leads to emotional circumstances that lead some to suicide.

I can live with a virus that I know I'll be ok after it comes and goes. Yes, I know I'll be ok and so will 95+ percent of all people. I can't live with people being forced to live with needles laws being placed on them. Being FORCED to shut doors and stay inside is a killer financially and emotionally and that's not ok with me.

I agree.

This thing is not going away ever. Just like other forms of the Coronavirus have become common colds that we now have to deal with Covid 19 is going to become a perm things we all have to deal with.

There is really no good reason to force people into unemployment / no insurance, force people into making less money and soon to be forcing people into getting evicted. This is what happens when businesses are forced to close.

[jazzbodog]

FTR....I think when we talk at a more macro level, I for one consider economy to actually equate to peoples' jobs and lives. I certainly don't think only of it as X% growth, or whatever GDP. When the economy is weak, I think folks out of work and struggling. If the economy is good, I see more folks getting by, and more opportunity. There's a strong micro side to all of this, and for people like me, it's not just stats. It's the well being of those who are doing what they can. It is personal to me.

Anyway, to all, stay safe.

To me, the obvious is overwhelmingly obvious! First rule of Quality Control / Quality Assurance: When a serious problem occurs that effects processes and/or product ($$$), the first question asked is "WHAT IS THE ROOT CAUSE?" Something had to happen initially that severely disrupted normal established routines and behavior thus creating an overwhelming hardship effecting QUALITY at varying degrees. And what is the immediate risk that it could get worse.

America - Late 2019: Normal in spite of political nonsense. Economy.....very good to excellent. I believe life for most Americans had a fair amount of QUALITY.

America - December 2019 - January 2020: New unknown deadly virus arrives in the USA....say what?

America - February-March 2020: This virus is serious. Masks....really? Panic buying rapidly spreads. Older weak people are at higher risk including death.

America - Present: Economy...weak...could be a lot worse. Record daily virus infections and death. But wait! There's more! Thanksgiving in four days. Let's compare today's record numbers to the numbers in the second and third week in December. Time to start lining up the large freezer trailers that will be in high demand at many hospitals and morgues across America.

The economy must definitely be as strong as reasonably possible. Can we all agree the biggest and most important thing, ROOT CAUSE, effecting the economy is....drum roll.....THE PANDEMIC!

Manage or eliminate the ROOT CAUSE by DILIGENTLY using proven and effective safe guards....masks, gloves, soap, sanitizers, social distancing, etc.

Sacrifice and patience by EVERYONE must prevail in order for the ECONOMY to come back stronger than ever. Selfish and self centered attitudes cannot be tolerated and will only enhance the negativity effecting this nation that has ALWAYS ALWAYS BEEN GREAT.

[CanDB]

Outside of the fact that not many were endorsing masks early on, but came around soon after, the experts were very much bang on with their analysis of this pandemic, including recommended behaviour, 2nd/3rd waves, and so forth. It is not a perfect science, dealing with an unknown commodity, with health and lives literally on the line. But it's a good science. Our part was so much easier...listen and follow the guidance of the medical world. What's more shocking is how some look the other way, when they can be models of wise behaviour/example.

[CanDB]

I've stayed away from this thread because I don't want to create enemies or start fights. I'm not here now to do so......

I have consistently referred to this virus as similar to the flu. For most if not all people who get the flu get similar like symptoms. Right now this coronavirus effects so many people in different ways. Most have ZERO effects or just mild fever and body aches, like getting a cold. Numbers of survival are still EXTREMEY high. The flu ( which magically has disappeared ) kills people too....yet we live with it. People take vaccines for it every year and every year it stills pops up and deaths happen, unfortunately.

We can live with this virus and still go about our daily lives. The vaccine will come and some will and won't take it and that's ok. I have never taken the flu vaccine. I've lived 40 years on this earth and have gotten by just fine. I'm not going to take the Corona vaccine and you know what...things will be ok.

Business can and should stay open. Shutting down business has such an emotional effect on people. Financially it is in so many cases impossible to come back from. Then leads to emotional circumstances that lead some to suicide.

I can live with a virus that I know I'll be ok after it comes and goes. Yes, I know I'll be ok and so will 95+ percent of all people. I can't live with people being forced to live with needles laws being placed on them. Being FORCED to shut doors and stay inside is a killer financially and emotionally and that's not ok with me.

You have every your right to your opinion. It is has been pretty much the opposite of mine, but that's why we discuss things. But I don't quite get your bolded statement....I don't think anyone can guarantee that, unless you are ok with "whatever happens". And what about the people around you?