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  • #61
    My problem with making laws against/restricting smoking is the fact that the govt is the biggest supporter of cigs to being with - if it wasnt for our govt they wouldnt be around anymore - so i have a real problem with them benefiting financially from it being both legal and illegal (to a certain degree)

    The parents with common sense wont smoke around their kids to begin with - they dont need a law to tell them mot to- those that do wouldnt care what kind of law was out there - they are ignorant and will continue to smoke and cause harm to their children regardless of whatever laws are passed

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    • #62
      Originally posted by jhns
      Second hand smoke will not do damage unless you are sitting in a really big cloud. Even then though, it does heal up. You can smoke for 10 years and as long as you don't have cancer, your lungs will heal. I doubt anyone is getting that much second hand smoke that they are developing cancer. If you are then you are constently in a room that you can hardly see in from all the smoke.

      That being said, it is reallllly bad to smoke around kids. It won't give them cancer but they can get a lot of different respiratory illnesses. Their lungs are still developing and it can have bad effects. Adults do not have that same problem though, just for everyone acting like being within 20 feet of a smoker is going to kill you in the next week.
      Do you have something to back these statistics? I work in a Pediatric Respiratory Clinic. And have MANY studies from NEJM & others that have proven otherwise.

      Here is just one 31 pg fact sheet on secondhand smoke

      http://www.repace.com/SHSFactsheet.pdf

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Missin#7
        Do you have something to back these statistics? I work in a Pediatric Respiratory Clinic. And have MANY studies from NEJM & others that have proven otherwise.

        Here is just one 31 pg fact sheet on secondhand smoke

        http://www.repace.com/SHSFactsheet.pdf
        Can someone help me please?

        I am looking for a "slap upside the head" smiley, and I can't seem to find one.


        :brick: :brick: :brick: :brick:

        Somebody got told... :nono:
        Last edited by BroncoFanCam; 10-25-2006, 09:58 AM.


        [SIZE=1][B]Adopted Bronco:Kenard Lang

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        • #64
          Originally posted by BroncoFanCam
          Can someone help me please?

          I am looking for a "slap upside the head" smiley, and I can't seem to find one.


          Somebody got told... :nono:




          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Big Buck 1981
            Here's my reasons behind making it a child-abuse issue.

            1. Common sense. Common sense would dictate that you should not smoke around children, however, smokers are obviously not that big on common sense, because common sense would also tell you that once you've been warned about the dangers of smoking, you don't have a leg to stand on for a lawsuit. So, we can throw common sense out the window on this one...cigarettes are poison, and the last time I checked, poisoning someone was illegal.

            2. Permanent damage. With today's overzealous social services and idiotic views of child abuse, a simple spanking can be considered abuse. I grew up in a household where, if you acted up, you'd get spanked...the worse the behavior, the worse the spanking. I suffered no permanent physical or pyschological damage from the spanking...and I'm a better person because of it. Conversely, cigarette smoke not only damages your lungs, but the compounds within cigarette smoke affect various other parts of the body, like blood vessels and eyes. Children who grow up in a home where one or both of their parents smoke have twice the risk of getting asthma and asthmatic bronchitis. They also have a higher risk of developing allergies. Infants under two years old are more prone to severe respiratory infections and cot death.

            3. Parental knowledge. Unless they are complete idiots, and indeed, some of them are, the parents know that smoking around their child is unhealthy and dangerous. Knowing that, they are willfully and intentionally endangering their child's health and life. Now, let's assume that the parent doesn't know...okay, unlikely, but could be the case. For that reason, the law should include stiffer punishments after multiple offenses. First offense...warning, let the parents know that what they're doing is endangering their child. After that, they can no longer play the "I didn't know card" Second offense...fine them. Third offense...fine and probation, social services stops by periodically and unannounced to see if the parents have stopped their behavior. Fourth offense...remove the children from the household while the parents serve a short jail sentence (perhaps 15-30 day). Fifth offense, remove the children from the household permanently.

            Yeah, it's harsh, but these are helpless children, and if we're going to do everything possible to protect those who can't protect themselves, then by God, we ought to do it.

            As someone pointed out, this originated as smoking in the car with children inside.

            That being said I completely disagree with point one and am somewhat offended by some of your remarks. I smoked for years and consider myself to have plenty of common sense, and I am sure there are others that feel the same.
            You cannot lump everbody into a lump and say that anyone that smokes has no common sense.

            On point two and three of your post. What is child abuse? Is it hitting a child at all? Is it hitting them three times or is it four times while spanking? Do you have to leave a black and blue mark or a welt?
            This is a thin line, and wouldl be very hard to inforce, you would have to walk into the house and catch them with the cigarrette in there mouth in order to have enough evidence to stand up in court.

            There are two kinds of teams in the AFCW; The losers and the Broncos!!!

            I Support our Troops!
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            • #66
              Originally posted by orangenblue420
              My problem with making laws against/restricting smoking is the fact that the govt is the biggest supporter of cigs to being with - if it wasnt for our govt they wouldnt be around anymore - so i have a real problem with them benefiting financially from it being both legal and illegal (to a certain degree)

              The parents with common sense wont smoke around their kids to begin with - they dont need a law to tell them mot to- those that do wouldnt care what kind of law was out there - they are ignorant and will continue to smoke and cause harm to their children regardless of whatever laws are passed
              First of all, I'm flabbergasted by your first paragraph...to have a marijuana leaf in your sig line, you must realize that just because the government bans something doesn't mean it won't be around.

              I agree with the first line of your 2nd paragraph, and obviously legislation aimed at stopping parents from smoking around their children would NOT be aimed that the responsible parents. The second part of your paragraph deals with the enforcement of such a law...and I believe such a law could be easily enforced.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Day1BroncoFan
                As someone pointed out, this originated as smoking in the car with children inside.

                That being said I completely disagree with point one and am somewhat offended by some of your remarks. I smoked for years and consider myself to have plenty of common sense, and I am sure there are others that feel the same.
                You cannot lump everbody into a lump and say that anyone that smokes has no common sense.

                On point two and three of your post. What is child abuse? Is it hitting a child at all? Is it hitting them three times or is it four times while spanking? Do you have to leave a black and blue mark or a welt?
                This is a thin line, and wouldl be very hard to inforce, you would have to walk into the house and catch them with the cigarrette in there mouth in order to have enough evidence to stand up in court.
                1. I don't feel that my post was off topic, it deals with people smoking around their kids in any enclosed space...that could include cars, houses, etc.

                2. Sorry you took offense, but all the medical evidence says smoking is bad for you and it will kill you at some point. To know what the evidence says and ignore it indicates 2 things, either 1) you consider yourself smarter than all of the medical experts and don't believe the evidence, or 2) you believed the experts but didn't have the common sense to heed their advice. If there is another explanation, please, enlighten me.

                3. Child abuse is when a parent strikes their child out of sheer anger, not for the purpose of discipline. Yes, the line between discipline and child abuse can be a very fine one when you talk about spanking or striking any child...however, there is no such line for smoking around children...as anybody who would smoke around their children as a means of punishment and discipline is a sick, demented soul.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Big Buck 1981
                  First of all, I'm flabbergasted by your first paragraph...to have a marijuana leaf in your sig line, you must realize that just because the government bans something doesn't mean it won't be around.

                  I agree with the first line of your 2nd paragraph, and obviously legislation aimed at stopping parents from smoking around their children would NOT be aimed that the responsible parents. The second part of your paragraph deals with the enforcement of such a law...and I believe such a law could be easily enforced.
                  I do understand what your saying and I always assume most people have read my little rant about"legalization" but this thread is not on that so i wont go there - not to mention it usually ends up violationg the CoC at some point - I basically think if tobacco is legal you should make MJ legal - if MJ is illegal then IMO cigs should be also - (that is if you are soley basing the legality issue on health factors - whcih the govt claims they do)

                  My main thing in my 1st paragraph is the govt promotes and supports (via lobbyists and soft money) something as addictive as tobacco, get millions addicted to it, then turn around and tell them they cant do it anymore - and if they do they will be punished - thats not right :nono:

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by orangenblue420
                    I do understand what your saying and I always assume most people have read my little rant about"legalization" but this thread is not on that so i wont go there - not to mention it usually ends up violationg the CoC at some point - I basically think if tobacco is legal you should make MJ legal - if MJ is illegal then IMO cigs should be also - (that is if you are soley basing the legality issue on health factors - whcih the govt claims they do)

                    My main thing in my 1st paragraph is the govt promotes and supports (via lobbyists and soft money) something as addictive as tobacco, get millions addicted to it, then turn around and tell them they cant do it anymore - and if they do they will be punished - thats not right :nono:
                    I understand and respect your point, however, I would point out that the places where the government is suggesting people don't smoke, or even outlawing smoking, are places where non-smokers are negatively affected by a habit in which they don't engage. About 2 years ago, Lincoln enacted a smoking ban in ALL places of employment...the rationale being that, while patrons may be able to leave the smoke, employees are subjected to the smoke. With the limited amount of available jobs in Lincoln, you gotta take what you can get, and if that means being a bartender/waitress/etc. to make money, then so be it...but a person's need for money should not have to come at the price of their health.

                    No one is telling smokers they can't smoke, they're just saying "Don't do it inside"...as a non-smoker, I enjoy going to the bars MUCH more than I ever used to. I don't feel like I have to take a shower when I get home, my clothes don't stink, and my eyes don't burn. I don't believe bars are reserved for smokers, a bar that serves alcohol should be open and enjoyable to all who enjoy drinking (hopefully in moderation).

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Big Buck 1981
                      I understand and respect your point, however, I would point out that the places where the government is suggesting people don't smoke, or even outlawing smoking, are places where non-smokers are negatively affected by a habit in which they don't engage. About 2 years ago, Lincoln enacted a smoking ban in ALL places of employment...the rationale being that, while patrons may be able to leave the smoke, employees are subjected to the smoke. With the limited amount of available jobs in Lincoln, you gotta take what you can get, and if that means being a bartender/waitress/etc. to make money, then so be it...but a person's need for money should not have to come at the price of their health.

                      No one is telling smokers they can't smoke, they're just saying "Don't do it inside"...as a non-smoker, I enjoy going to the bars MUCH more than I ever used to. I don't feel like I have to take a shower when I get home, my clothes don't stink, and my eyes don't burn. I don't believe bars are reserved for smokers, a bar that serves alcohol should be open and enjoyable to all who enjoy drinking (hopefully in moderation).
                      I see what youre saying - being a non-smoker (of cigs) myself and a bartender in what was once a smoking section (turned non-smoking due to new laws) I greatly appreciate that - but when you start getting to the point where you tell people where they can smoke in their private lives (ie homes and cars) the govt is crossing the line on this issue - and I know they havent done it yet - but its my reasoning on why i wouldnt back it if they did even though i am totally against cigs and everything about them (and anywhere they happen to be)

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Big Buck 1981
                        1. I don't feel that my post was off topic, it deals with people smoking around their kids in any enclosed space...that could include cars, houses, etc.

                        2. Sorry you took offense, but all the medical evidence says smoking is bad for you and it will kill you at some point. To know what the evidence says and ignore it indicates 2 things, either 1) you consider yourself smarter than all of the medical experts and don't believe the evidence, or 2) you believed the experts but didn't have the common sense to heed their advice. If there is another explanation, please, enlighten me.

                        3. Child abuse is when a parent strikes their child out of sheer anger, not for the purpose of discipline. Yes, the line between discipline and child abuse can be a very fine one when you talk about spanking or striking any child...however, there is no such line for smoking around children...as anybody who would smoke around their children as a means of punishment and discipline is a sick, demented soul.

                        1. I'm just pointing out a fact as is known by the name of the thread.

                        2. Did you actually read my post? Your post I responded to states that you think people whom smoke have "thrown common sense out the window" and casually mentions smokings affects, it does not however mention any medical or other such information. Your point 2 deals with it, not point one, therefore this is not the subject of my post.
                        If you read my response, you would know that, as I stated, I am offended by the fact that you have basically lumped me in category of people whom have "thrown common sense out the window".

                        3. Well we're not discussing the "punishment and discipline" of children by smoking around them, the rest I tend to agree with.

                        There are two kinds of teams in the AFCW; The losers and the Broncos!!!

                        I Support our Troops!
                        How do you expect me to have a RED WHITE and BLUE sig when the background is obnoxious white?

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Day1BroncoFan
                          1. I'm just pointing out a fact as is known by the name of the thread.

                          2. Did you actually read my post? Your post I responded to states that you think people whom smoke have "thrown common sense out the window" and casually mentions smokings affects, it does not however mention any medical or other such information. Your point 2 deals with it, not point one, therefore this is not the subject of my post.
                          If you read my response, you would know that, as I stated, I am offended by the fact that you have basically lumped me in category of people whom have "thrown common sense out the window".

                          3. Well we're not discussing the "punishment and discipline" of children by smoking around them, the rest I tend to agree with.
                          1. And I'm just pointing out the fact that my comments are pertinent to the thread.

                          2. Yes, I think that smokers are generally lacking common sense, at least when it comes to their health...that is what I THINK...you do not have to agree with what I think; what I think does not equal fact;, and I did not try to represent my own thoughts and beliefs as fact. Take them at what you think they are worth.

                          I 'casually mention' the negative health effects of smoking without referencing them because they are so widely known...but if I must, here you go...

                          From the Centers for Disease Control
                          The adverse health effects from cigarette smoking account for 440,000 deaths, or nearly 1 of every 5 deaths, each year in the United States. More deaths are caused each year by tobacco use than by all deaths from human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), illegal drug use, alcohol use, motor vehicle injuries, suicides, and murders combined.

                          Cancer
                          • The risk of dying from lung cancer is more than 22 times higher among men who smoke cigarettes, and about 12 times higher among women who smoke cigarettes compared with never smokers.

                          • Cigarette smoking increases the risk for many types of cancer, including cancers of the lip, oral cavity, and pharynx; esophagus; pancreas; larynx (voice box); lung; uterine cervix; urinary bladder; and kidney.

                          • Rates of cancers related to cigarette smoking vary widely among members of racial/ethnic groups, but are generally highest in African-American men.


                          Cardiovascular Disease (Heart and Circulatory System)
                          • Cigarette smokers are 2–4 times more likely to develop coronary heart disease than nonsmokers.

                          • Cigarette smoking approximately doubles a person’s risk for stroke.

                          • Cigarette smoking causes reduced circulation by narrowing the blood vessels (arteries). Smokers are more than 10 times as likely as nonsmokers to develop peripheral vascular disease.


                          Respiratory Disease and Other Effects
                          • Cigarette smoking is associated with a ten-fold increase in the risk of dying from chronic obstructive lung disease. About 90% of all deaths from chronic obstructive lung diseases are attributable to cigarette smoking.

                          • Cigarette smoking has many adverse reproductive and early childhood effects, including an increased risk for infertility, preterm delivery, stillbirth, low birth weight, and sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS).

                          • Postmenopausal women who smoke have lower bone density than women who never smoked. Women who smoke have an increased risk for hip fracture than never smokers.
                          Also from the Centers for Disease Control
                          Second Hand Smoke

                          Definition
                          • Secondhand smoke, also known as environmental tobacco smoke, is a complex mixture of gases and particles that includes smoke from the burning cigarette, cigar, or pipe tip (sidestream smoke) and exhaled mainstream smoke.

                          • Secondhand smoke is a known human carcinogen (cancer-causing agent). More than 50 compounds in secondhand smoke have been identified as known or reasonably anticipated human carcinogens. Secondhand smoke contains at least 250 chemicals that are known to be toxic or carcinogenic.

                          • People are exposed to secondhand smoke in homes, vehicles, workplaces, and in public places such as restaurants, bars, and casinos. Homes and workplaces are the predominant locations for secondhand smoke exposure.


                          Health Effects
                          • Secondhand smoke exposure causes heart disease and lung cancer in nonsmoking adults. Nonsmokers who are exposed to secondhand smoke at home or work increase their heart disease risk by 25–30 percent and their lung cancer risk by 20–30 percent. Secondhand smoke exposure has immediate adverse effects on the cardiovascular system.

                          • Secondhand smoke causes sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS), acute respiratory infections, ear problems, and more frequent and severe asthma attacks in children. Secondhand smoke exposure causes respiratory symptoms in children and slows their lung growth.

                          • There is no risk-free level of secondhand smoke exposure. Even brief exposure can be dangerous.


                          Current Estimates
                          • Levels of a chemical called cotinine, which is a marker of exposure to nicotine and secondhand smoke in nonsmokers, fell by 70 percent from 1988-91 to 2001-02. Over this same time period, the proportion of nonsmokers with detectable cotinine levels was halved from 88 percent to 43 percent.

                          • More than 126 million nonsmoking Americans continue to be exposed to secondhand smoke in homes, vehicles, workplaces, and public places.

                          • Almost 60 percent of U.S. children aged 3–11 years—or almost 22 million children—are exposed to secondhand smoke.

                          • About 25 percent of children aged 3-11 years live with at least one smoker, as compared to only about 7 percent of nonsmoking adults.

                          • The California Environmental Protection Agency estimates that secondhand smoke exposure causes approximately 3,400 lung cancer deaths and 22,700–69,600 heart disease deaths annually among adult nonsmokers in the United States.

                          • Secondhand smoke exposure is responsible for an estimated 150,000–300,000 new cases of bronchitis and pneumonia in children aged less than 18 months, resulting in 7,500–15,000 hospitalizations.

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                          • #73
                            1. I didn't say you were off topic, get over it. I just pointed out what someone said and the original thread topic.

                            Originally posted by Big Buck 1981
                            1. And I'm just pointing out the fact that my comments are pertinent to the thread.

                            2. Yes, I think that smokers are generally lacking common sense, at least when it comes to their health...that is what I THINK...you do not have to agree with what I think; what I think does not equal fact;, and I did not try to represent my own thoughts and beliefs as fact. Take them at what you think they are worth.

                            I 'casually mention' the negative health effects of smoking without referencing them because they are so widely known...but if I must, here you go...
                            Below is the post my reply refers to, please go back and read your post, then my post, I'm sure you can figure out what I'm saying.


                            Originally posted by Big Buck 1981
                            Here's my reasons behind making it a child-abuse issue.

                            1. Common sense. Common sense would dictate that you should not smoke around children, however, smokers are obviously not that big on common sense, because common sense would also tell you that once you've been warned about the dangers of smoking, you don't have a leg to stand on for a lawsuit. So, we can throw common sense out the window on this one...cigarettes are poison, and the last time I checked, poisoning someone was illegal.

                            2. Permanent damage. With today's overzealous social services and idiotic views of child abuse, a simple spanking can be considered abuse. I grew up in a household where, if you acted up, you'd get spanked...the worse the behavior, the worse the spanking. I suffered no permanent physical or pyschological damage from the spanking...and I'm a better person because of it. Conversely, cigarette smoke not only damages your lungs, but the compounds within cigarette smoke affect various other parts of the body, like blood vessels and eyes. Children who grow up in a home where one or both of their parents smoke have twice the risk of getting asthma and asthmatic bronchitis. They also have a higher risk of developing allergies. Infants under two years old are more prone to severe respiratory infections and cot death.

                            3. Parental knowledge. Unless they are complete idiots, and indeed, some of them are, the parents know that smoking around their child is unhealthy and dangerous. Knowing that, they are willfully and intentionally endangering their child's health and life. Now, let's assume that the parent doesn't know...okay, unlikely, but could be the case. For that reason, the law should include stiffer punishments after multiple offenses. First offense...warning, let the parents know that what they're doing is endangering their child. After that, they can no longer play the "I didn't know card" Second offense...fine them. Third offense...fine and probation, social services stops by periodically and unannounced to see if the parents have stopped their behavior. Fourth offense...remove the children from the household while the parents serve a short jail sentence (perhaps 15-30 day). Fifth offense, remove the children from the household permanently.

                            Yeah, it's harsh, but these are helpless children, and if we're going to do everything possible to protect those who can't protect themselves, then by God, we ought to do it.

                            There are two kinds of teams in the AFCW; The losers and the Broncos!!!

                            I Support our Troops!
                            How do you expect me to have a RED WHITE and BLUE sig when the background is obnoxious white?

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