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  • #31
    Originally posted by Atwnbroncfan View Post
    Lol. I was just about to post that. We aren't in bad shape at all.

    Next year we could potentially get hit with maybe 2 million in taxes if we don't make any changes but that's not "hell".
    2013 Adopt-a-Bronco: Demaryius Thomas

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    • #32
      Originally posted by The Experience View Post
      he got enough in return for Melo to keep us competitive. Look at Cleveland, New Orleans and Orlando right now after losing their stars. That's why Masai did a great job.
      As I have said that was awesome. I have given him truck loads of credit for that. However it seems he is living off the reputation of that as being awesome around here. And as I said. I think you have to give Carmelo Anthony credit for that as well. Because he forced everyones hand. He wanted to be traded before the deadline. He wanted a new contract under the old CBA. He said only New York. And the New York front office made a silly trade. Masai though stayed patient, played the field and made a great deal. However he did say we got killed in that trade as well. He himself said that. I just think he got the great reputation from this trade, and has lived off it despite not making great things happen after that.

      Originally posted by Broncoholic3233 View Post
      Don't bother. He's 100% right all the time. Just let him preach on his high horse. If you try to argue, he attacks you, and ends up getting himself in trouble.
      Why do you even make this post ? I know you don't like me and I can't stand you. However don't lie. I only attack when attacked and have plenty of good discussions on here. It is just when you don't like something you get snarky and bait me into that and it becomes an argument about words instead of the topic.

      I am not attacking anyone in this thread. I am stating my case for what I think. I have plenty of valid points however no one seems to actually want to discuss them. Instead it is everyone saying I am wrong, I am on a high horse and I think I am right all the time and I am uninformed. Please. If people want to discuss the points I make then do it. But these comments people have towards me on this topic don't do anything but point out that you have nothing to respond with. My points are listed below.

      Originally posted by BroncosDivision View Post
      Saying Ujiri is overrated is uninformed at best. He's done a fantastic job given the market, terms, and timeframe. Kroenke is also no Bowlen so I'm a little worried.

      Congrats to Raptors fans though. They get a GREAT GM!
      I will lay out my points here as to why I think Masai Ujiri is overrated by all of you. I wonder if anyone will respond to my actual points or just say I am wrong.

      1: He gave Nene a massive, near max contract. This was the first thing he done post Carmelo Anthony. He went and he gave the soft, inconsistant and very unclutch Nene this sort of contract. Everyone disliked this move as there is no way Nene is worth that much money. He then ended up getting traded soon after anyway.

      2: He gave Arron Afflallo a big contract which I feel he overpayed for. There were no suitors reported for Arron Afflalo besides two backup role offers. Yet we come in and give out this big contract when we could have got guys of similar talent for less. He is solid but not worth what he was given. He ended up getting traded at the end of the next season.

      3: He gave Wilson Chandler a big contract which was inflated as well. Wilson Chandler has been terrible in the two playoff series he has played here and earned no where near the money he gets paid. He has been good in the regular season but again, I didn't see a ton of interest for him but he got that large deal.

      4: He gave Javale Mcgee a stupid contract. Javale Mcgee is not worth his contract. He has potential is what you hear. Well when the hell will it start to come through ? Cluless on both end of the courts and makes silly plays atleast once a game. He got payed huge money based off two playoff games against the Lakers. Bad signing.

      5: He traded for Andre Iguodala. This made our team better however he came with a massive contract. He was overpaid this last season. I would also say we overpaid in that trade. Maybe if it was just the two players we gave up but why did we give up a first rounder as well. Everyone on this message board was not all that happy with this trade. And this was the one big move he made post the Melo trade. Also did Andre Iguodala solve any of the problems we had from the year before ? Like 3 point shooting ? No.

      So that is the list of big moves he made as the General Manager of the Denver Nuggets after he traded Carmelo Anthony. Now lets look at the situations he ignored. Okay.

      1: After that half a season where we got bounced by the Thunder in the first rounder we did nothing at all to really try and improve the team. We traded away Raymond Felton for Andre Miller and a late first round pick because Felton wanted to be a starter some where. We used our first round pick on Faired who just replaced Kenyon Martin. So we didn't really add a post game, height or a scoring touch. Then we just re-signed our own guys. Nene and Afflallo. Plus we let JR Smith go because our coach couldn't work with him. Now the 6th Man of the Year. So really we didn't get any better this off-season by moves Masai made.

      2: After being bounced by the Lakers in the next playoffs we did nothing which really solved our problem areas, just highlighted them even more. We traded for Andre Iguodala who made the team better with his defense, rebounding and assisting. However the three ball problem wasn't solved and the non existant post game didn't get fixed. We re-signed Javale Mcgee who if the stats were available, when backing down in the post shoots around 5-10%. Outside of this what did we do ? Used our draft pick and hoped that our once again three point struggles, non existant post game and bad half court offense got fixed ? Yeah that didn't happen.

      So that is the two off-seasons Masai Ujiri had. I don't see nothing amazing there. I see refusal to address, and no effort to try and address problem areas which a lot of people could see. And these problems still exist right now and the new General Manager will have to address them. Also with all these big contracts that were handed out to our own players, lets look at some guys who were off-contract who they could have tried to get in here. Not saying they would have got them, however there were no reports we went after these players.

      We had no problem paying Nene and Mcgee massive money. Money they didn't deserve. So why were we not in the market for guys like Tyson Chandler, Deandre Jordan, Marc Gasol, David West, Carl Landry. All of these guys could have really helped us, especially the first three guys I mentioned. That was another problem with Masai. He fell in love to much with what was on the team.

      Now onto the good things which he done. Because as I have said, he was good but not as good as some make out. I still think he done a good job here okay. So the good.

      1: He picked up bargains and got good play out of them. The trade for Corey Brewer and Rudy Fernadez for a second rounder was good. We got good play out of both of them and much more then you would ever get from a second rounder. So a great trade. He also made a great deal in getting Anthony Randolph in here. He played better then Mcgee at times and was very good depth.

      2: He brought in good undrafted free agents. Julyan Stone for example. He looks good on defense and could be a good role player in the fututre.

      3: The draft was good for Masai. He got great value at the end of the first round which is historically very tough to do. Kenneth Faried and Evan Fournier will be solid players down the road. They could also be very good. Fournier showed some flashes in limited play and Faried despite some struggles late in the season is no doubt going to get better and better.

      I just think that weighing it up and looking at all the points I make you it is not unreasonable to look at it how I do. I think it is very reasonable and because of this I am not all that broken up about him leaving. I think if he stayed we would have tried to make it work with a lot of the same guys. I am now hoping whoever we bring in, we see some aggresive moves to try and address our needs and go in a different direction. I think George Karl done a hell of a job with the talent he was given to work with and I think he got much more out of them they are worth. I think his scheme was the number one reason we were so good in the reglaur season. Not our talent on the court.

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      • #33
        We need Seventh Woods.

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        • #34
          HOLY WALL OF TEXT!

          too many words for my attention span.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
            I will lay out my points here as to why I think Masai Ujiri is overrated by all of you. I wonder if anyone will respond to my actual points or just say I am wrong.

            1: He gave Nene a massive, near max contract. This was the first thing he done post Carmelo Anthony. He went and he gave the soft, inconsistant and very unclutch Nene this sort of contract. Everyone disliked this move as there is no way Nene is worth that much money. He then ended up getting traded soon after anyway.

            You and me both. I never was a fan of that move and it's easily the biggest knack I have on Ujiri after his tenure here.

            2: He gave Arron Afflallo a big contract which I feel he overpayed for. There were no suitors reported for Arron Afflalo besides two backup role offers. Yet we come in and give out this big contract when we could have got guys of similar talent for less. He is solid but not worth what he was given. He ended up getting traded at the end of the next season.

            I disagree. The contract was acceptable and Afflalo did some good things for us and provided a solid game on D. Before you complain about numbers, remember something here. You cannot compare our market to superstar tandem markets where role players will play for less in exchange for championships. Doesn't work like that.

            3: He gave Wilson Chandler a big contract which was inflated as well. Wilson Chandler has been terrible in the two playoff series he has played here and earned no where near the money he gets paid. He has been good in the regular season but again, I didn't see a ton of interest for him but he got that large deal.

            Again, no. Compare his PER to the average for his position by a rotational SF in the league. He is not overpaid. You look at the interest, yes. But you also look at the alternative. That weighs in and keeping a player happy off the field is also key for any team, and it is especially true for a team with a profile like Nuggets.

            4: He gave Javale Mcgee a stupid contract. Javale Mcgee is not worth his contract. He has potential is what you hear. Well when the hell will it start to come through ? Cluless on both end of the courts and makes silly plays atleast once a game. He got payed huge money based off two playoff games against the Lakers. Bad signing.

            I'll be honest here. I'm not sure where I stand on this one. One minute he's making a freak play out of this world, the next he's playing like.. well yeah, a clueless rookie. It does get a little frustrating but again, look around. It's not a bad signing but it's not top flight either, average to below average imo.

            5: He traded for Andre Iguodala. This made our team better however he came with a massive contract. He was overpaid this last season. I would also say we overpaid in that trade. Maybe if it was just the two players we gave up but why did we give up a first rounder as well. Everyone on this message board was not all that happy with this trade. And this was the one big move he made post the Melo trade. Also did Andre Iguodala solve any of the problems we had from the year before ? Like 3 point shooting ? No.

            I liked the trade. I still do. He was overpaid in the sense that he wasn't fully utilized. But come on, that was never gonna happen on a team with a scheme like the Nuggets. We rolled the dice on this because Ujiri and the FO believed he was the missing piece. Looking at the playoffs, I can see why. Unlike most of the team, he actually did step up and came ready.

            But you're in luck, he's gone and the 15 some odd millions are off the books. Happy?


            So that is the list of big moves he made as the General Manager of the Denver Nuggets after he traded Carmelo Anthony. Now lets look at the situations he ignored. Okay.

            1: After that half a season where we got bounced by the Thunder in the first rounder we did nothing at all to really try and improve the team. We traded away Raymond Felton for Andre Miller and a late first round pick because Felton wanted to be a starter some where. We used our first round pick on Faired who just replaced Kenyon Martin. So we didn't really add a post game, height or a scoring touch. Then we just re-signed our own guys. Nene and Afflallo. Plus we let JR Smith go because our coach couldn't work with him. Now the 6th Man of the Year. So really we didn't get any better this off-season by moves Masai made.

            2: After being bounced by the Lakers in the next playoffs we did nothing which really solved our problem areas, just highlighted them even more. We traded for Andre Iguodala who made the team better with his defense, rebounding and assisting. However the three ball problem wasn't solved and the non existant post game didn't get fixed. We re-signed Javale Mcgee who if the stats were available, when backing down in the post shoots around 5-10%. Outside of this what did we do ? Used our draft pick and hoped that our once again three point struggles, non existant post game and bad half court offense got fixed ? Yeah that didn't happen.

            So that is the two off-seasons Masai Ujiri had. I don't see nothing amazing there. I see refusal to address, and no effort to try and address problem areas which a lot of people could see. And these problems still exist right now and the new General Manager will have to address them. Also with all these big contracts that were handed out to our own players, lets look at some guys who were off-contract who they could have tried to get in here. Not saying they would have got them, however there were no reports we went after these players.

            We had no problem paying Nene and Mcgee massive money. Money they didn't deserve. So why were we not in the market for guys like Tyson Chandler, Deandre Jordan, Marc Gasol, David West, Carl Landry. All of these guys could have really helped us, especially the first three guys I mentioned. That was another problem with Masai. He fell in love to much with what was on the team.

            Now onto the good things which he done. Because as I have said, he was good but not as good as some make out. I still think he done a good job here okay. So the good.

            1: He picked up bargains and got good play out of them. The trade for Corey Brewer and Rudy Fernadez for a second rounder was good. We got good play out of both of them and much more then you would ever get from a second rounder. So a great trade. He also made a great deal in getting Anthony Randolph in here. He played better then Mcgee at times and was very good depth.

            2: He brought in good undrafted free agents. Julyan Stone for example. He looks good on defense and could be a good role player in the fututre.

            3: The draft was good for Masai. He got great value at the end of the first round which is historically very tough to do. Kenneth Faried and Evan Fournier will be solid players down the road. They could also be very good. Fournier showed some flashes in limited play and Faried despite some struggles late in the season is no doubt going to get better and better.

            I just think that weighing it up and looking at all the points I make you it is not unreasonable to look at it how I do. I think it is very reasonable and because of this I am not all that broken up about him leaving. I think if he stayed we would have tried to make it work with a lot of the same guys. I am now hoping whoever we bring in, we see some aggresive moves to try and address our needs and go in a different direction. I think George Karl done a hell of a job with the talent he was given to work with and I think he got much more out of them they are worth. I think his scheme was the number one reason we were so good in the reglaur season. Not our talent on the court.
            I don't think we're all that far apart, we just grade things differently. Remember the market he was in. Unlike the Broncos, Nuggets are not considered a medium-large market in NBA. It's a completely different ball game if you're in a lower tier when working contracts and signing proven talent to your roster.
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            • #36
              You and me both. I never was a fan of that move and it's easily the biggest knack I have on Ujiri after his tenure here.
              Well that is a pretty big knock on the guy everyone seems to be in love. That is a max contract. That is a big deal and that is who he thought he should give it to. That makes me question his judgment big time and I know everyone on this message board agrees this was a terrible contract given to Nene.

              I disagree. The contract was acceptable and Afflalo did some good things for us and provided a solid game on D. Before you complain about numbers, remember something here. You cannot compare our market to superstar tandem markets where role players will play for less in exchange for championships. Doesn't work like that.
              His Defense got pretty bad in his last year here and he had a horrible start to the season. At one point, deep into the season he had registered a plus-minus so far in the negative compared to the rest of the team and was the 3rd lowest player in the league amongst winning teams. He improved though and a good back end of the season however I still think due to the lack of interest league wide he got overpaid.

              And the big market teams thing is not true. These middle of the road guys will sign wherever the most money is. And not everyone is willing to take pay cuts to play in the big markets. Besides Lebron James, Ray Allen and a bunch of old washed up veterans like Rashad Lewis it just doesn't happen.

              Again, no. Compare his PER to the average for his position by a rotational SF in the league. He is not overpaid. You look at the interest, yes. But you also look at the alternative. That weighs in and keeping a player happy off the field is also key for any team, and it is especially true for a team with a profile like Nuggets.
              Well I have said in the regular season he has been great. However when it comes to the playoffs he has been horrible. He at times thinks he is Carmelo Anthony and tries to shoot to much. He made the dumb play at the end of the playoff series this year which cost us. Iguodala gets a steal, Chandler with 11 seconds left and down two just shoots a terrible fading shot. Prime oppurtunity lost. This was a solid deal and not that bad, however this doesn't make one a great General Manager.

              I'll be honest here. I'm not sure where I stand on this one. One minute he's making a freak play out of this world, the next he's playing like.. well yeah, a clueless rookie. It does get a little frustrating but again, look around. It's not a bad signing but it's not top flight either, average to below average imo.
              One minute he makes an amazing play then for the next 8 minutes he makes silly plays and has no impact. No post game, terrible defense, has no idea how to block shots and needs so much work. I have not seen much improvment in him from day 1. Terrible signing by Masai and again it is double figures. A huge contract that isn't making the team significantly better.

              I liked the trade. I still do. He was overpaid in the sense that he wasn't fully utilized. But come on, that was never gonna happen on a team with a scheme like the Nuggets. We rolled the dice on this because Ujiri and the FO believed he was the missing piece. Looking at the playoffs, I can see why. Unlike most of the team, he actually did step up and came ready.

              But you're in luck, he's gone and the 15 some odd millions are off the books. Happy?
              Yeah in the playoffs he did step it up. Almost brought us back. He was a key part of the team and was our 2nd Best Player. However I don't think the trade was great. We gave up to much and pretty much everyone agreed at the time. And now if he does leave and not come back that is even more of a negative on the trade for Masai because he didn't lock him up and brought in a guy he spent assets on. However a good part of that trade was dumping the inflated contract of Al Harrington and in my opinion Arron Afflalo.

              I don't think we're all that far apart, we just grade things differently. Remember the market he was in. Unlike the Broncos, Nuggets are not considered a medium-large market in NBA. It's a completely different ball game if you're in a lower tier when working contracts and signing proven talent to your roster.
              I don't think much of what he did was affected by the market at all. I didn't see us chasing any top quality players. I seen us being content with what we had an overpaying them. I think you now see I have valid points and hope that others see that Masai is indeed overrated. Also what do you love so much about what he done post Melo trade. You replied to my points and there was some agreement. However what was so great that he done and do you agree George Karl got more out of his players then they were worth ?
              Last edited by johnlimburg; 06-02-2013, 09:18 AM.

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              • #37
                http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/s...gets-unsettled

                This would be the only positive about losing Ujiri. The fact that Karl is in this organization longer than ujiri is sickening.
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                • #38
                  Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
                  Well that is a pretty big knock on the guy everyone seems to be in love. That is a max contract. That is a big deal and that is who he thought he should give it to. That makes me question his judgment big time and I know everyone on this message board agrees this was a terrible contract given to Nene.
                  I agree.

                  Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
                  His Defense got pretty bad in his last year here and he had a horrible start to the season. At one point, deep into the season he had registered a plus-minus so far in the negative compared to the rest of the team and was the 3rd lowest player in the league amongst winning teams. He improved though and a good back end of the season however I still think due to the lack of interest league wide he got overpaid.

                  And the big market teams thing is not true. These middle of the road guys will sign wherever the most money is. And not everyone is willing to take pay cuts to play in the big markets. Besides Lebron James, Ray Allen and a bunch of old washed up veterans like Rashad Lewis it just doesn't happen.
                  Due to lack of interest? He was widely regarded as attractive and coveted by a number of teams. The contract numbers reflected his talent, age and production over several seasons, not one or two plays or half a season.

                  Big market teams have leverage. You actually proved my point. Most will sign wherever the most money is. That's why small to medium market teams will have to play the numbers game more often than not. It's just common sense.

                  The contract was acceptable.

                  Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
                  Well I have said in the regular season he has been great. However when it comes to the playoffs he has been horrible. He at times thinks he is Carmelo Anthony and tries to shoot to much. He made the dumb play at the end of the playoff series this year which cost us. Iguodala gets a steal, Chandler with 11 seconds left and down two just shoots a terrible fading shot. Prime oppurtunity lost. This was a solid deal and not that bad, however this doesn't make one a great General Manager.
                  Prior to the extension, he was UNDERPAID. He was in top 10 in PER / dollar (starter and bench). The new numbers put him pretty much where he should be / PER. This deal wasn't solid, it was great.

                  Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
                  One minute he makes an amazing play then for the next 8 minutes he makes silly plays and has no impact. No post game, terrible defense, has no idea how to block shots and needs so much work. I have not seen much improvment in him from day 1. Terrible signing by Masai and again it is double figures. A huge contract that isn't making the team significantly better.
                  Right now, this is number two on my own list next to the Nene signing. Not thrilled about it but it's not terrible. Average to below average with plenty upside. I'll take it.

                  Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
                  Yeah in the playoffs he did step it up. Almost brought us back. He was a key part of the team and was our 2nd Best Player. However I don't think the trade was great. We gave up to much and pretty much everyone agreed at the time. And now if he does leave and not come back that is even more of a negative on the trade for Masai because he didn't lock him up and brought in a guy he spent assets on. However a good part of that trade was dumping the inflated contract of Al Harrington and in my opinion Arron Afflalo.
                  Like I said, they took a chance on this one. It didn't work out but it wasn't because of Iguodala. Most of the team inflated in the playoffs while he did what he was brought in to do. The entire league applauded the deal and many thought it was the balancing piece to our scheme.

                  Hindsight is 20/20 but I still don't regret it. We always get to the playoffs (not taking it for granted!), Iguodala is great off the perimeter and experienced. It made a lot of sense but when the team falls apart, it's over. Several players mailed it in and some were flat out intimidated by GSW.

                  You need to look at it isolated. Iguodala brought his game when it mattered. What more do you want? This isn't a typical deal anyway. It's more like a one-year "lets see where it takes us" kind of deal. A bet. When you have most pieces and you're consistently in the playoffs and short of the ultimate goal, that's what you gotta do. A good GM will do that.

                  Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
                  I don't think much of what he did was affected by the market at all. I didn't see us chasing any top quality players. I seen us being content with what we had an overpaying them. I think you now see I have valid points and hope that others see that Masai is indeed overrated. Also what do you love so much about what he done post Melo trade. You replied to my points and there was some agreement. However what was so great that he done and do you agree George Karl got more out of his players then they were worth ?
                  When you run a scheme like Nuggets have been, with a players' philosophy like they have, you don't chase top quality players that will break the bank and ask for a big chunk of the shooting %. You make solid deals that compliment the team's depth of bench and talent pool and fits the bill mentally.

                  Yeah, you do have valid points, I agree with you on several (including George Karl. Look in other threads and you'll see me backing him. He needs to stay for sure and NOT be on the hot seat. Just ridiculous..) but I definitely grade some deals and contracts differently than you. Oh well.
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                  • #39
                    The team needed some work and I'm bummed the executive of the year won't be around to do it.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by BroncosDivision View Post
                      I agree.

                      Due to lack of interest? He was widely regarded as attractive and coveted by a number of teams. The contract numbers reflected his talent, age and production over several seasons, not one or two plays or half a season.

                      Big market teams have leverage. You actually proved my point. Most will sign wherever the most money is. That's why small to medium market teams will have to play the numbers game more often than not. It's just common sense.

                      The contract was acceptable.

                      Prior to the extension, he was UNDERPAID. He was in top 10 in PER / dollar (starter and bench). The new numbers put him pretty much where he should be / PER. This deal wasn't solid, it was great.
                      So lets agree to disagree on these two. I don't think you would say though they were great signings. They were okay. I say overpaid however we both agree neither was an amazing deal by any stretch. Every General Manager will make these sort of mid level deals every off-season. Masai wasn't a genius for either one.

                      Right now, this is number two on my own list next to the Nene signing. Not thrilled about it but it's not terrible. Average to below average with plenty upside. I'll take it.

                      Like I said, they took a chance on this one. It didn't work out but it wasn't because of Iguodala. Most of the team inflated in the playoffs while he did what he was brought in to do. The entire league applauded the deal and many thought it was the balancing piece to our scheme.

                      Hindsight is 20/20 but I still don't regret it. We always get to the playoffs (not taking it for granted!), Iguodala is great off the perimeter and experienced. It made a lot of sense but when the team falls apart, it's over. Several players mailed it in and some were flat out intimidated by GSW.

                      You need to look at it isolated. Iguodala brought his game when it mattered. What more do you want? This isn't a typical deal anyway. It's more like a one-year "lets see where it takes us" kind of deal. A bet. When you have most pieces and you're consistently in the playoffs and short of the ultimate goal, that's what you gotta do. A good GM will do that.
                      A good GM will try and address the needs of the team to try and push them over the edge. The Iguodala move didn't do that at all. It highlighted them and coming in everyone knew he wasn't going to solve the jump shooting or post game problems. I also really like Iguodala and hope he returns. However I just don't think he was the right move last off-season. A guy like Al Jefferson would have been the right way to try and go. He is a free agent now though, hopefully we can get him.

                      When you run a scheme like Nuggets have been, with a players' philosophy like they have, you don't chase top quality players that will break the bank and ask for a big chunk of the shooting %. You make solid deals that compliment the team's depth of bench and talent pool and fits the bill mentally.

                      Yeah, you do have valid points, I agree with you on several (including George Karl. Look in other threads and you'll see me backing him. He needs to stay for sure and NOT be on the hot seat. Just ridiculous..) but I definitely grade some deals and contracts differently than you. Oh well.
                      Well overall you agree on the two biggest contracts handed out in this discussion. Javale Mcgee and Nene. However you think the two mid level deals were solid. You also think the Iguodala trade was alright. I'm sorry but I don't see a very convincing argument at all to say how Masai Ujiri was great.

                      Also I am still waiting for all these others who told me I was wrong, and on a high horse, and all this to say anything on the topic. Because it just looks like you guys were riding the bandwagon and not looking at what has actually gone on over the last few years. Maybe you guys were the uninformed ones.

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                      • #41
                        Hey John, who's somebody you believe to be a great GM that didn't have the luxury of a Lebron James or Kobe Bryant to draw players in for low level contracts to have a shot at the championship

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Matymaddog View Post
                          Hey John, who's somebody you believe to be a great GM that didn't have the luxury of a Lebron James or Kobe Bryant to draw players in for low level contracts to have a shot at the championship
                          Doesn't do much in free agency but the Spurs GM does a phenomenal job drafting.
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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
                            So lets agree to disagree on these two. I don't think you would say though they were great signings. They were okay. I say overpaid however we both agree neither was an amazing deal by any stretch. Every General Manager will make these sort of mid level deals every off-season. Masai wasn't a genius for either one.
                            Like I said, I think the Chandler deal was great. Not good, not okay but great. The Afflalo deal was okay.

                            Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
                            Well overall you agree on the two biggest contracts handed out in this discussion. Javale Mcgee and Nene. However you think the two mid level deals were solid. You also think the Iguodala trade was alright. I'm sorry but I don't see a very convincing argument at all to say how Masai Ujiri was great.

                            Also I am still waiting for all these others who told me I was wrong, and on a high horse, and all this to say anything on the topic. Because it just looks like you guys were riding the bandwagon and not looking at what has actually gone on over the last few years. Maybe you guys were the uninformed ones.
                            You're forgetting something here. We're discussing what you pointed out as negatives. I think the Nene deal was a negative indeed (a big one actually), not happy about the McGee deal but I'm willing to let it slide for now and see where it takes us. But if it makes you happy, lets say that one is a negative too. Everything else has been positive in my book.

                            There's no point in me going over the positives, you already mentioned some of them but at the end of the day, his tenure here was great. I don't see how he's overrated by any stretch. I call it as I see it and he handled the business aspect of basketball very well.
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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Matymaddog View Post
                              Hey John, who's somebody you believe to be a great GM that didn't have the luxury of a Lebron James or Kobe Bryant to draw players in for low level contracts to have a shot at the championship
                              Look at the teams who went deep into the playoffs from markets not considered big. Teams that went further then us in the playoffs. Teams that were built much better then ours was. The three teams I am thinking of are the Indiana Pacers, the Memphis Grizzlies and the Golden State Warriors.

                              The Indiana Pacers: They got there front court locked down. They went and they signed David West when he became a free agent. He is a quality big man who provides a quality low spost scoring option at the PF position. Then they developed and re-signed a Center who is deserving of the contract in Roy Hibbert. They brought in a guys and got a lot out of them like Geroge Hill. They drafted well with a guy like Paul George. This formula is a great one and one that Memphis has also used.

                              Memphis Grizzlies: They locked down their big Defensive Center in Gasol and signed a post scorer at the 4 in Zach Randolph. They built their front courts the right way. They surrounded the front court with good role players. Guys who do a lot of things well. However they made a stupid move in trading Rudy Gay and getting pretty average talent in return.

                              Golden State Warriors: They drafted and developed a superstar in Steph Curry. They drafted really well with Green, Barnes and Thompson. They also built the front court really well. They signed David Lee who can do it all. They signed Carl Landry who is a good post scorer and jump shooter. They then went and got their big strong Defensive Center.

                              What these 3 teams have is the front court. They have a big strong Defensive Center who can Rebound and do all the little things right. They then have a 4 who has scoring ability and some post game ability. We don't have this and it looks like we did try to do it though. However the guys Masai picked just are not good enough. Compare our front court against these teams, we are not as good as them.

                              This is why I think if we can get a 4 who can add a post game and a mid range game we will be so much better. And in free agency over the next two years some of these guys will be available. Then we need to get a 3 point marksmen. Whether it is in free agency where guys like Kyle Korver and JJ Reddick will be available or the draft where I love Seth Curry we need to address this area. Then you could try and make a trade for a Center who will be that Defensive big inside who can rebound and block shots and be physical.

                              Originally posted by BroncosDivision View Post
                              Like I said, I think the Chandler deal was great. Not good, not okay but great. The Afflalo deal was okay.

                              You're forgetting something here. We're discussing what you pointed out as negatives. I think the Nene deal was a negative indeed (a big one actually), not happy about the McGee deal but I'm willing to let it slide for now and see where it takes us. But if it makes you happy, lets say that one is a negative too. Everything else has been positive in my book.

                              There's no point in me going over the positives, you already mentioned some of them but at the end of the day, his tenure here was great. I don't see how he's overrated by any stretch. I call it as I see it and he handled the business aspect of basketball very well.
                              I pointed out the biggest moves he made. And all the other positive stuff was what though ? Seriously. No one is providing anything to back up this great talk of him being a General Manager with the moves he made. What was great ? He didn't find Ty Lawson with a mid range pick. He didn't develop him. He is the best player on the roster. He did re-sign him which was great. However he inherited him. Who else did he bring in which makes him a great General Manager and not overrated because between the weak argument being put forward and the fact I don't see any of these others who went on about me being wrong having anything to back up the claim I am wrong, I would say the argument for he is overrated is a very accurate one.
                              Last edited by johnlimburg; 06-04-2013, 07:01 AM.

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