Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Skyrim gameplay trailer

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Charlie Brown
    replied
    Originally posted by Alastor View Post
    I'll answer this in a second.



    It depends on what you define as great and what exactly "game play" encompasses I think.



    Actually, they're rebuilding the entire program from the ground up. That should produce a better product in this case though.

    And again, I think you feel that the game is well balanced and that there aren't any inherent flaws in their game system, when that's really not the case.

    Take a look at Bethesdas own boards. Archery doesn't work. One can't survive in Oblivion as an archer. It's tough as any kind of physical character unless exploits are used, but possible. In fact, the character is still item dependent regardless of the character type - which is a flaw in itself - but it gets better if one goes the magic rout.

    For most characters though, it's a matter of struggling through and hitting the Blind Moth Temple (where no one fights) over and over again until they get the uber-gear in order to be viable characters at level 45ish or higher. Then again once they have the uber gear they're damn near invincible too. There doesn't seem to be a way to be in the middle very easily.

    That's poor game design.

    I already listed a ton of issues above that are pretty major issues. You guys chose to ignore them or consider them minor. They're really not minor though. They may have been minor to your experience because of the character you played or from how you played, but they're really not minor. They're significant, and there's more than I listed.



    No, I really don't.

    I think the game played nicely and had some interesting aspects. As a game system however, it's really not very well constructed.
    When I play games I generally like to roleplay. In Oblivion, for example, I am relatively fond of the Imperial race because Obliviion takes place in their home region. With my favorite character, I am wearing the Blades armor even though the character is in the high 30's. The armor is far weaker than what the others are wearing and I enjoy the extra challenge. I have beaten the game before, but with this character I am holding off on beating it as I am collecting some of the Sigil stones for my armor/weapons to help out a little bit (I am generally going for added Shielding). I still find the game to be quite fun and a bit on edge because any one fight can ultimately result in the death of my character.

    Leave a comment:


  • Amari24
    replied
    Originally posted by Alastor View Post
    I'd like to do a comparison at some stage. We can both post our stats and our gear, and then we can raid the same dungeon together and compare results. I think that would be fruitful for the discussion. A small dungeon of course, but a dungeon none the less that we both try.
    Sure I'm up for it. I have to re-adapt to the game first since I've been away from it for awhile.

    Leave a comment:


  • Alastor
    replied
    Originally posted by Amari24 View Post
    Lol I honestly don't know. I'm pretty sure I'm still level 45, and my Marksmen I'm not sure about. I'll be playing today so I'll be back to clearify that later. As for the enemies, it's the usual. A group of Goblins can be tough, but what I do is put on some light armor, even though it effects your Marksmen ability, it offers great defense. Nercomancers I can take out effortlessly, and I haven't tried fighting grummites using range, I usually use my daggers and short blades against them.
    I'd like to do a comparison at some stage. We can both post our stats and our gear, and then we can raid the same dungeon together and compare results. I think that would be fruitful for the discussion. A small dungeon of course, but a dungeon none the less that we both try.

    Leave a comment:


  • Amari24
    replied
    Originally posted by Alastor View Post
    What level is your archer? What kinds of enemies are you talking about? I can take my level 46 archer into a Necro cave and do pretty well by taking out the Necros. But go into a goblin cave or a grummite cave and I pretty much just sneak through it completely.

    What level is your archer? What gear, stats, bow and arrow? Are you using alchemy? If so how many poisons of what kinds?



    Right. Fair enough. I think that since they've built a new game engine - one that is specific to their game, it'll produce less bugs. That's my hope at least. The game creation tools should be much more solid this time around. I hope. They should be at any rate.




    Ah.

    Some people "come to accept" that Bethesda makes games with those flaws, but I've never played a Bethesda game before Oblivion.

    I've never been much of a fan of accepting an issue just because it's always been present either, so that probably contributes to my stance.

    Modern games shouldn't be this buggy. Not if they want to resonate in the mainstream at least.

    Bear in mind that with Bethesda's success with Oblivion, at least two other companies (EA and one other that I don't recall) both began to launch projects to challenge their market. I worked for EA at the time. The concept of challenging them didn't seem to be based on the idea that EA would create a larger world or a more robust story, but that they could build a simpler, yet more well-functioning game.

    As it turns out the economy continued to tank and several EA offices and subsidiaries closed down, and many projects were scrapped. The project that would challenge Oblivion was among the projects that got scrapped/placed on hold because of the development cost at a time when the economy was retracting.

    But the opportunity was there, and there are at least two companies - big companies - out there that are eying this market. I can't speak for the other company, but I can to some extent speak about EA. It's not because they felt they could deliver a bigger game or a more robust story that they felt they could take a large chunk of the Bethesda fan base in as customers, it's because they felt they could produce a fundamentally more sound game and then build on it moving forward.

    I'm not a fan of the games EA makes, and I don't like the way they treat customers. I stopped buying Madden for this very reason. My hope is that Bethesda's shuts that door before EA (or someone like them) takes a large chunk of that market, forces a merger, and then we lose Bethesda the same way we've lost many other good game companies over the years.

    Mainstream gamers have different expectations than the "traditional" Bethesda fan base in terms of quality. Until Oblivion came out on the 360 and PS3, it was largely a niche gamer market. Even now it's a popular game among many, but it's still not what I'd consider "mainstream."

    It does have that potential present however. Bethesda could rock the gaming world with Skyrim. They've got to take into account mainstream gamers for that to happen though, and modern mainstream gamers aren't willing to accept that "this is how they've always made games."

    They want a game that works. Correctly. The first time.
    Lol I honestly don't know. I'm pretty sure I'm still level 45, and my Marksmen I'm not sure about. I'll be playing today so I'll be back to clearify that later. As for the enemies, it's the usual. A group of Goblins can be tough, but what I do is put on some light armor, even though it effects your Marksmen ability, it offers great defense. Nercomancers I can take out effortlessly, and I haven't tried fighting grummites using range, I usually use my daggers and short blades against them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Alastor
    replied
    Originally posted by Freyaka View Post
    Thanks! I was excited before now I'me extatic!
    Yeah, I gotta confess. What can be seen... Looks pretty damned amazing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Freyaka
    replied
    Originally posted by Hoserman117 View Post
    Thanks! I was excited before now I'me extatic!

    Leave a comment:


  • Alastor
    replied
    Originally posted by Amari24 View Post
    I'm not sure I follow. My character mains archery, but I still carry 2-3 short blades with me just incase, but most of the time, I'm able to beat most of my enemies with just archery.
    What level is your archer? What kinds of enemies are you talking about? I can take my level 46 archer into a Necro cave and do pretty well by taking out the Necros. But go into a goblin cave or a grummite cave and I pretty much just sneak through it completely.

    What level is your archer? What gear, stats, bow and arrow? Are you using alchemy? If so how many poisons of what kinds?

    Also I know they're using a different engine, what I meant was it's not like they're changing the gameplay. It's still an open world RPG just like the other Elder Scrolls', they're using a different engine yes, but at the end of the day it's basically still the same thing as the other games.
    Right. Fair enough. I think that since they've built a new game engine - one that is specific to their game, it'll produce less bugs. That's my hope at least. The game creation tools should be much more solid this time around. I hope. They should be at any rate.


    Also the issues you mentioned are pretty much in every Bethesda RPG game, and I don't conisder them issues that ruin the game for me. Maybe it's just you. Usually the only glitches that I've encountered in Bethesda games that I hate are ones that prevent you from finishing a quest or objective, or cause your whole system to crash. Bethesda has always been notorious for those types of problems.
    Ah.

    Some people "come to accept" that Bethesda makes games with those flaws, but I've never played a Bethesda game before Oblivion.

    I've never been much of a fan of accepting an issue just because it's always been present either, so that probably contributes to my stance.

    Modern games shouldn't be this buggy. Not if they want to resonate in the mainstream at least.

    Bear in mind that with Bethesda's success with Oblivion, at least two other companies (EA and one other that I don't recall) both began to launch projects to challenge their market. I worked for EA at the time. The concept of challenging them didn't seem to be based on the idea that EA would create a larger world or a more robust story, but that they could build a simpler, yet more well-functioning game.

    As it turns out the economy continued to tank and several EA offices and subsidiaries closed down, and many projects were scrapped. The project that would challenge Oblivion was among the projects that got scrapped/placed on hold because of the development cost at a time when the economy was retracting.

    But the opportunity was there, and there are at least two companies - big companies - out there that are eying this market. I can't speak for the other company, but I can to some extent speak about EA. It's not because they felt they could deliver a bigger game or a more robust story that they felt they could take a large chunk of the Bethesda fan base in as customers, it's because they felt they could produce a fundamentally more sound game and then build on it moving forward.

    I'm not a fan of the games EA makes, and I don't like the way they treat customers. I stopped buying Madden for this very reason. My hope is that Bethesda's shuts that door before EA (or someone like them) takes a large chunk of that market, forces a merger, and then we lose Bethesda the same way we've lost many other good game companies over the years.

    Mainstream gamers have different expectations than the "traditional" Bethesda fan base in terms of quality. Until Oblivion came out on the 360 and PS3, it was largely a niche gamer market. Even now it's a popular game among many, but it's still not what I'd consider "mainstream."

    It does have that potential present however. Bethesda could rock the gaming world with Skyrim. They've got to take into account mainstream gamers for that to happen though, and modern mainstream gamers aren't willing to accept that "this is how they've always made games."

    They want a game that works. Correctly. The first time.

    Leave a comment:


  • Amari24
    replied
    Originally posted by Alastor View Post
    I'll answer this in a second.



    It depends on what you define as great and what exactly "game play" encompasses I think.




    Actually, they're rebuilding the entire program from the ground up. That should produce a better product in this case though.

    And again, I think you feel that the game is well balanced and that there aren't any inherent flaws in their game system, when that's really not the case.

    Take a look at Bethesdas own boards. Archery doesn't work. One can't survive in Oblivion as an archer. It's tough as any kind of physical character unless exploits are used, but possible. In fact, the character is still item dependent regardless of the character type - which is a flaw in itself - but it gets better if one goes the magic rout.

    For most characters though, it's a matter of struggling through and hitting the Blind Moth Temple (where no one fights) over and over again until they get the uber-gear in order to be viable characters at level 45ish or higher. Then again once they have the uber gear they're damn near invincible too. There doesn't seem to be a way to be in the middle very easily.

    That's poor game design.

    I already listed a ton of issues above that are pretty major issues. You guys chose to ignore them or consider them minor. They're really not minor though. They may have been minor to your experience because of the character you played or from how you played, but they're really not minor. They're significant, and there's more than I listed.



    No, I really don't.

    I think the game played nicely and had some interesting aspects. As a game system however, it's really not very well constructed.
    I'm not sure I follow. My character mains archery, but I still carry 2-3 short blades with me just incase, but most of the time, I'm able to beat most of my enemies with just archery. Also I know they're using a different engine, what I meant was it's not like they're changing the gameplay. It's still an open world RPG just like the other Elder Scrolls', they're using a different engine yes, but at the end of the day it's basically still the same thing as the other games.

    Also the issues you mentioned are pretty much in every Bethesda RPG game, and I don't conisder them issues that ruin the game for me. Maybe it's just you. Usually the only glitches that I've encountered in Bethesda games that I hate are ones that prevent you from finishing a quest or objective, or cause your whole system to crash. Bethesda has always been notorious for those types of problems.

    Leave a comment:


  • Alastor
    replied
    Originally posted by Bernie24 View Post
    What are you talking about I played average difficulty and did work as an archer. Wood Elf Archer was such a ninja I killed most stuff 1-2 shots with sneak bonus.
    Then you should tell Bethesda that since they're under the impression it doesn't work very well.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bernie24
    replied
    Originally posted by Alastor View Post
    Take a look at Bethesdas own boards. Archery doesn't work. One can't survive in Oblivion as an archer. It's tough as any kind of physical character unless exploits are used, but possible. In fact, the character is still item dependent regardless of the character type - which is a flaw in itself - but it gets better if one goes the magic rout.
    What are you talking about I played average difficulty and did work as an archer. Wood Elf Archer was such a ninja I killed most stuff 1-2 shots with sneak bonus.

    Leave a comment:


  • Alastor
    replied
    Originally posted by Hoserman117 View Post
    I've made it through the game several times with several different types of characters, and while I agree it was more difficult getting through as an archer, it was still doable. You can't get through the game with ONLY archery (that wouldn't make much sense), you need to become effective with short blades for up close combat, but overall as a rogue you can easily get through the game.

    The game might be more biased in terms of favoring better items over your skills, but I don't see such a glaring flaw with that. I see how some people could find it to be an issue, but I don't really find it to be that big.
    Do this, and I'm serious.

    Take an archer with a longsword. Without using duplication tricks, magic, or some of the exploits such as 101% chameleon or reflection suits, and go clear a goblin dungeon at level 45.

    For a real kick, do it without an optimized character (one that leveled as efficiently as possible).

    Bethesda itself went through and did it - and then rapidly apologized and said they'd work on it.

    Your opinion differs from their findings. I'd encourage you to actually try it. Without the dupe trick or exploits, it's very tedious - and quite the opposite of productive or fun.

    Here's a post I made on the Bethesda boards about it, which pretty universally got acknowledged with, "Yeah, it's broken. Has been for a long time. They're working on it."

    I'm playing Oblivion. I have a level 30 Bosmer. I have 98 in Marskman, and my agility is 112 (enhancements).

    It'd be pretty difficult to find a better archer.

    I did an experiment.

    I went to Cann in the Shivering Isles (Mania side).

    It's a large dungeon, so I felt it would be good for testing.

    I took a Perfect Amber Bow. I took 200 amber arrows, but without an enchantment on them. They're the level 23+ type, but with no damage health. The reason I took non-enchanted arrows is because I have never found a matrix for amber arrows. Even if I did, 25 isn't going to last long. Thus, normal amber arrows.

    I fully charged my bow with soul gems. Completely. my bow holds 4150 magic points. It uses 55 every time it fires. A full charge will provide me with 75 shots.

    My goal was relatively simple. I wanted to count the number of arrows it took for me to kill each creature as well as counting the number of creatures killed. I also wanted to see how many arrows I generally managed to recover.

    I have the best basic bow amber can buy. It's even already enchanted! I am two points shy of the best possible marksmanship skill. I have the best unenchanted arrows in the game.

    Here were my results:

    I killed 53 creatures. Most were conjurers so they were nice and soft. Everything else was a Hunger - also not particularly tough.


    I fired 212 times.

    I started with 200 arrows. I ended with 91.

    This would indicate a recovery rate of "about half" for the arrows. It came out to be 45%. For the record, I scoured the place for arrows too. The nice thing about amber arrows is that if they are present, you can definitely see them easily. Even so, I only managed a 45% recovery rate.

    It cost me slightly more than 4 amber in arrows. However, I only recovered 2 amber from the entire dungeon. This left me at an amber deficit of 2.

    It also cost me 11,660 magic points to keep the bow charged. In fact, I ran out of the charge along with several soul gems before I even finished the halfway point of the second area of this dungeon. I had to cut out to return to town, recharge the bow and buy additional soul gems to carry with me into the dungeon in order to complete it. Even after purchasing every soul gem in Bliss, I only barely finished the dungeon. This is 8 grand soul gems worth of magic.

    When the hunt was over, however, I had only acquired 1 greater, 1 grand, and 3 lesser soul gems. This left me with a magic deficit of 7960 magic points.

    I also consumed 5 homemade healing potions in the process - not to mention running around a dungeon like a kitten on PCP because I had to shoot and retreat from the hordes of conjurers that would see me if they were in a pack and I tried to pick one off.

    This is a conjurer dungeon. Heretics.

    I've also gone into dungeons such as Milchar, which is composed of standard monsters. While the amber yield there is enough to sustain the hunts, it's still somewhat close. I generally wind up with a massive magic point deficit as well. If I run into necros or undead, it gets very ugly very quickly.

    It's honestly kind of... This kind of sucks.


    The reason I tracked all this, posted all this, and wrote all this isn't just to whine and complain. That's not the point at all, actually, as I long ago gave up the idea of being an "archer type" in Oblivion.

    Skyrim is announced for this November though, and my hope among hopes is that Bethesda really, truly discovers that not everyone who plays their game wants to be a sorcerer. Please make that possible in the next one.

    There's one in-depth example of where I think you guys are off base, or simply haven't noticed the deficiencies in the game's design.

    Archery's not the only one, however.


    If this were a table-top RPG, either the entire group would play as mages, or they'd all stop playing. This game is not balanced, and it's not well designed.

    Add to it the complications with alchemy that almost every character HAS to have to survive, that hiding doesn't work as intended, that magic is considerably more powerful than any amount of physical attacks...

    And again, "Among other issues."

    Oblivion is a neat game. It's innovative in concept and it's certainly fun to look at. From a game design standpoint however, it was not very good.

    My hopes for Skyrim are that this improves. That's the hope for Bethesda as well, they've been pretty open about working really hard on that facet of the game as well as just how pretty it looks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hoserman117
    replied
    Originally posted by Alastor View Post
    Actually, they're rebuilding the entire program from the ground up. That should produce a better product in this case though.

    And again, I think you feel that the game is well balanced and that there aren't any inherent flaws in their game system, when that's really not the case.

    Take a look at Bethesdas own boards. Archery doesn't work. One can't survive in Oblivion as an archer. It's tough as any kind of physical character unless exploits are used, but possible. In fact, the character is still item dependent regardless of the character type - which is a flaw in itself - but it gets better if one goes the magic rout.

    For most characters though, it's a matter of struggling through and hitting the Blind Moth Temple (where no one fights) over and over again until they get the uber-gear in order to be viable characters at level 45ish or higher. Then again once they have the uber gear they're damn near invincible too. There doesn't seem to be a way to be in the middle very easily.

    That's poor game design.

    I already listed a ton of issues above that are pretty major issues. You guys chose to ignore them or consider them minor. They're really not minor though. They may have been minor to your experience because of the character you played or from how you played, but they're really not minor. They're significant, and there's more than I listed.
    I've made it through the game several times with several different types of characters, and while I agree it was more difficult getting through as an archer, it was still doable. You can't get through the game with ONLY archery (that wouldn't make much sense), you need to become effective with short blades for up close combat, but overall as a rogue you can easily get through the game.

    The game might be more biased in terms of favoring better items over your skills, but I don't see such a glaring flaw with that. I see how some people could find it to be an issue, but I don't really find it to be that big.

    Leave a comment:


  • Alastor
    replied
    Originally posted by Amari24 View Post
    Well... what do you disagree with?
    I'll answer this in a second.

    Morrowind was great, Oblivion was great, the old school Elder Scrolls' were great for what they were, how could you not expect this game to have good gameplay?
    It depends on what you define as great and what exactly "game play" encompasses I think.

    It's not like they're changing formats here, it's the exact same thing as the other Elder Scrolls' games. Only thing to worry about are glitches and bugs.
    Actually, they're rebuilding the entire program from the ground up. That should produce a better product in this case though.

    And again, I think you feel that the game is well balanced and that there aren't any inherent flaws in their game system, when that's really not the case.

    Take a look at Bethesdas own boards. Archery doesn't work. One can't survive in Oblivion as an archer. It's tough as any kind of physical character unless exploits are used, but possible. In fact, the character is still item dependent regardless of the character type - which is a flaw in itself - but it gets better if one goes the magic rout.

    For most characters though, it's a matter of struggling through and hitting the Blind Moth Temple (where no one fights) over and over again until they get the uber-gear in order to be viable characters at level 45ish or higher. Then again once they have the uber gear they're damn near invincible too. There doesn't seem to be a way to be in the middle very easily.

    That's poor game design.

    I already listed a ton of issues above that are pretty major issues. You guys chose to ignore them or consider them minor. They're really not minor though. They may have been minor to your experience because of the character you played or from how you played, but they're really not minor. They're significant, and there's more than I listed.

    Originally posted by Hoserman117 View Post
    Well even if you don't 100% love it you have to at least agree they were solid.
    No, I really don't.

    I think the game played nicely and had some interesting aspects. As a game system however, it's really not very well constructed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hoserman117
    replied
    Originally posted by Alastor View Post
    That's where we disagree.
    Well even if you don't 100% love it you have to at least agree they were solid. They're likely not going to differ much from the formula laid down by those games, which were almost universally agreed upon as very good, unless you just didn't care at all for big RPG's.

    Leave a comment:


  • Amari24
    replied
    Originally posted by Alastor View Post
    That's where we disagree.
    Well... what do you disagree with? I think he's spot on. Look at sequels to past sucessful games, that everyone knew would be a hit.

    Halo has always been fantastic, so we all could tell off the bat that Reach was going to be amazing, which it was. Killzone has always been a great FPS, and without knowing much, Killzone 3 turned out amazing.

    Morrowind was great, Oblivion was great, the old school Elder Scrolls' were great for what they were, how could you not expect this game to have good gameplay? It's not like they're changing formats here, it's the exact same thing as the other Elder Scrolls' games. Only thing to worry about are glitches and bugs.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X