Game of Thrones

[L.M.]

This all feels horribly rushed and disjointed. You can REALLY tell they aren't pulling from GRRM's writing anymore. It seems uninspired and very average. An unfitting end to what I often refer to as the greatest television show ever created.

What they really needed to do was implore (beg on their knees if necessary) GRRM to help them finish writing the show so that there might be some intelligent, logical and believable connective tissue between the shocking spectacle and pretty pictures that they apparently prize above all else.

[L.M.]

Everything after the first half hour or so did feel smashed together. Lot of things didn't play out very well, but the one that really jumped out at me was Daenerys flying her dragons over King's Landing having first hand experience with their javelin weapon. I can find ways to justify the hidden Greyjoy Fleet, Jon not taking the dragon south, and the instantaneous way Missandei was captured. Little harder to flesh out Jon's decision to tell the psycho sisters about his lineage, though. I get his reasoning behind it, but he's been a little more clever than that for the most part.

Arya is a psycho sister for sure, though Jon has no idea about all of the people that she's killed and the ways she did it --making pies out of corpses, the brutal slaying of Meryn Trant, etc. Though their fates were deserved, these are deranged ways to execute them.

Sansa isn't a psycho. She may have learned games from Littlefinger, and she may be scarred from mental and physical torment at the hands of Joffrey, Cersei and Ramsay, but she's not a ruthless killer as they were. She genuinely cares about the welfare of the North and her family. She wanted the troops to rest a little because she cares about the bannermen and their sons who populate the North, as opposed to Dany who sees them as cannon fodder, a means to an end that she doesn't mind running ragged to win the Iron Throne.

Though I think Sansa has ultimately benevolent motives and intentions, she's also (in some ways) just another arrogant teenager who thinks that she knows best how to run the world. The show tells us that she's smart without showing or proving it, which annoys me, as does this perpetual, contradicting and undermining behavior of Jon since Season 6. She swore an oath to keep his secret and broke it -immediately- by telling Tyrion, the first person she ran into, to sow discord between Jon and Dany by getting his claim out there. So much for Stark honor! That was a Littlefingerish move! And there's no way Jon could have anticipated that either.

It was Stark honor and honesty within the family that led Jon to tell his sisters. Remember his speech at the Dragon pit about "better and better lies"? Yet forcing them to swear an oath of secrecy is where it gets messy, and that was caused by Dany, who wants Jon to keep it a secret. This is corruption, spiraling out of her ruthless, obsessive ambition for the Iron Throne, and its spreading to others in various ways.

[dipablo]

Arya is a psycho sister for sure, though Jon has no idea about all of the people that she's killed and the ways she did it --making pies out of corpses, the brutal slaying of Meryn Trant, etc. Though their fates were deserved, these are deranged ways to execute them.

Sansa isn't a psycho. She may have learned games from Littlefinger, and she may be scarred from mental and physical torment at the hands of Joffrey, Cersei and Ramsay, but she's not a ruthless killer as they were. She genuinely cares about the welfare of the North and her family. She wanted the troops to rest a little because she cares about the bannermen and their sons who populate the North, as opposed to Dany who sees them as cannon fodder, a means to an end that she doesn't mind running ragged to win the Iron Throne.

Though I think Sansa has ultimately benevolent motives and intentions, she's also (in some ways) just another arrogant teenager who thinks that she knows best how to run the world. The show tells us that she's smart without showing or proving it, which annoys me, as does this perpetual, contradicting and undermining behavior of Jon since Season 6. She swore an oath to keep his secret and broke it -immediately- by telling Tyrion, the first person she ran into, to sow discord between Jon and Dany by getting his claim out there. So much for Stark honor! That was a Littlefingerish move! And there's no way Jon could have anticipated that either.

It was Stark honor and honesty within the family that led Jon to tell his sisters. Remember his speech at the Dragon pit about "better and better lies"? Yet forcing them to swear an oath of secrecy is where it gets messy, and that was caused by Dany, who wants Jon to keep it a secret. This is corruption, spiraling out of her ruthless, obsessive ambition for the Iron Throne, and its spreading to others in various ways.

Jon will kill Dany because of it.

[L.M.]

Jon will kill Dany because of it.

I could only see Jon killing Dany if she has Arya or Sansa killed, or orders that and this is the only way to save them.

[dipablo]

I could only see Jon killing Dany if she has Arya or Sansa killed, or orders that and this is the only way to save them.

Agreed, and actually I think it can only be Arya that would drive it, she is the sibling he loved most. I predict Dany moves to kill or orders Arya killed like you said and Jon Steps in and stabs Dany in the heart.

[Spice 1]

Arya is a psycho sister for sure, though Jon has no idea about all of the people that she's killed and the ways she did it --making pies out of corpses, the brutal slaying of Meryn Trant, etc. Though their fates were deserved, these are deranged ways to execute them.

Sansa isn't a psycho. She may have learned games from Littlefinger, and she may be scarred from mental and physical torment at the hands of Joffrey, Cersei and Ramsay, but she's not a ruthless killer as they were. She genuinely cares about the welfare of the North and her family. She wanted the troops to rest a little because she cares about the bannermen and their sons who populate the North, as opposed to Dany who sees them as cannon fodder, a means to an end that she doesn't mind running ragged to win the Iron Throne.

Though I think Sansa has ultimately benevolent motives and intentions, she's also (in some ways) just another arrogant teenager who thinks that she knows best how to run the world. The show tells us that she's smart without showing or proving it, which annoys me, as does this perpetual, contradicting and undermining behavior of Jon since Season 6. She swore an oath to keep his secret and broke it -immediately- by telling Tyrion, the first person she ran into, to sow discord between Jon and Dany by getting his claim out there. So much for Stark honor! That was a Littlefingerish move! And there's no way Jon could have anticipated that either.

It was Stark honor and honesty within the family that led Jon to tell his sisters. Remember his speech at the Dragon pit about "better and better lies"? Yet forcing them to swear an oath of secrecy is where it gets messy, and that was caused by Dany, who wants Jon to keep it a secret. This is corruption, spiraling out of her ruthless, obsessive ambition for the Iron Throne, and its spreading to others in various ways.

He is a bit naïve about who his sisters have become. You got a point there. That, and he's got that Ned Stark honor. I just can't believe that he can't see how uncontrollable the situation would become if word gets out. Bang your aunt on the DL for the good of the realm, bud. Eddard knew how significant Jon's lineage was, and he kept it a secret all these years. Let his wife believe he fathered a child out of wedlock. Sacrifices.

I think one of the bigger character changes since the source material ran out has been in Tyrion. Jaime has gone though a major change, but that was plot driven more than anything. The inconsistency with Tyrion's ability to think one step ahead has changed. If Dragonstone is a major military asset where King's Landing is concerned, you can't abandon it under any circumstances. This includes tackling the NK. Even if you defeat him, you still have to deal with Cersei. Cersei is not an idiot. Her father was Tywin Lannister, and she learned well from him. She is a tactician, and they really hammered this point home when she had that Elizabethan map painted in her "war room" or whatever it was. She knows that it's an asset (looking at the map, anybody would). For him to allow Daenerys to firstly, leave it unmanned, but then not advising her to scout it before their return was a major oversight. To boot, they spent much of season seven staring out at the rock formations off the island. The perfect place for an ambush. I feel like that falls on Tyrion more than anyone, because he is Hand of the Queen at the end of the day. Not going to bother with questioning why she didn't see Euron's ambush from her vantage point, and furthermore attack them from behind.

[L.M.]

He is a bit naïve about who his sisters have become. You got a point there. That, and he's got that Ned Stark honor. I just can't believe that he can't see how uncontrollable the situation would become if word gets out. Bang your aunt on the DL for the good of the realm, bud. Eddard knew how significant Jon's lineage was, and he kept it a secret all these years. Let his wife believe he fathered a child out of wedlock. Sacrifices.

It's not that he can't see it, it's that 1) he trusts his family 2) he's determined to reject the Throne regardless and serve Dany (parallel to Theon putting aside his claim to the Salt Throne and favoring Yara, perhaps), so he doesn't think this information has any bearing on the outcome. Jon knows that Ned hid the truth so completely because a vengeful Robert was on the Throne, but there is no such threat any more, it's a very different situation. Is Queen Danaerys good for the realm?

The show has really questioned this through various characters who are observing a number of red flags pointing to potential inbred, Targaryen madness manifesting.

I think one of the bigger character changes since the source material ran out has been in Tyrion. Jaime has gone though a major change, but that was plot driven more than anything. The inconsistency with Tyrion's ability to think one step ahead has changed. If Dragonstone is a major military asset where King's Landing is concerned, you can't abandon it under any circumstances. This includes tackling the NK. Even if you defeat him, you still have to deal with Cersei. Cersei is not an idiot. Her father was Tywin Lannister, and she learned well from him. She is a tactician, and they really hammered this point home when she had that Elizabethan map painted in her "war room" or whatever it was. She knows that it's an asset (looking at the map, anybody would). For him to allow Daenerys to firstly, leave it unmanned, but then not advising her to scout it before their return was a major oversight. To boot, they spent much of season seven staring out at the rock formations off the island. The perfect place for an ambush. I feel like that falls on Tyrion more than anyone, because he is Hand of the Queen at the end of the day. Not going to bother with questioning why she didn't see Euron's ambush from her vantage point, and furthermore attack them from behind.

Tyrion has made grave, strategic mistakes continually since Season 6 (his deal with the slavers), and given bad advice, like "do nothing" when Dany got the ravenscroll from Eastwatch last season. There are bits of intelligent and wise-sounding dialogue since then, but poor results. He's Mr. Bleeding Heart who very unrealistically wants a war with minimal casualties and no collateral damage, but you can't have a Mother Theresa type in charge of armies and expect to win, so his counsel has put them in a disadvantageous predicament. How can you ever take a populated enemy position like the capital without hurting people? D&D (through Tyrion and Jon) think a siege is humane! Anyone remember what Bronn told Tyrion about thieves and food during sieges? D&D don't! The first people to suffer deprivation, starvation and death are the commoners, starting with the poorest among them. (sigh)

Perhaps the writers have made Tyrion so foolish because they are setting him up for a big fall, a fiery execution by Dany who's just fed up with his ineptitude, and/or D&D simply don't know how to write themselves out of plot challenges. Dany arrived in Westeros with a massive army and three dragons which could have ended the conflict too quickly and easily so they had to make Tyrion into a military moron to help even the odds. Oh and make Euron into a virtually infallible and almost supernatural threat as well.

Cersei does possess a devious, calculating intelligence, but she lacks wisdom and military strategy. Jaime helped with the latter. I think her big map of Westeros (like the map table at Dragonstone) was made so she could begin to grasp a bigger picture now that she's actually the sole ruler, but moreso to give the viewers a little geography lesson. A lot of people who watch this show don't look at maps of Westeros and have no idea where Dragonstone is in relation to King's Landing. The map scene in Season 7 pointed that out first.

Perhaps Dany did leave a garrison to defend Dragonstone --there was nothing to suggest it was actually taken, only that Euron was waiting to ambush them in the surrounding waters. The Dragons would be the natural choice for reconnaissance (or asking Bran to fly his crows down there) and they should have spotted Euron's fleet first. How often does a surface opponent ever surprise and ambush an aerial one? Almost never! It's always the opposite --tactical bombers spot and take out tanks and little ships, not the other way around (unless the ships have radar, cloaking devices, and surface to air guided missiles, like Euron's )

[Spice 1]

It's not that he can't see it, it's that 1) he trusts his family 2) he's determined to reject the Throne regardless and serve Dany (parallel to Theon putting aside his claim to the Salt Throne and favoring Yara, perhaps), so he doesn't think this information has any bearing on the outcome. Jon knows that Ned hid the truth so completely because a vengeful Robert was on the Throne, but there is no such threat any more, it's a very different situation. Is Queen Danaerys good for the realm?

The show has really questioned this through various characters who are observing a number of red flags pointing to potential inbred, Targaryen madness manifesting.



Tyrion has made grave, strategic mistakes continually since Season 6 (his deal with the slavers), and given bad advice, like "do nothing" when Dany got the ravenscroll from Eastwatch last season. There are bits of intelligent and wise-sounding dialogue since then, but poor results. He's Mr. Bleeding Heart who very unrealistically wants a war with minimal casualties and no collateral damage, but you can't have a Mother Theresa type in charge of armies and expect to win, so his counsel has put them in a disadvantageous predicament. How can you ever take a populated enemy position like the capital without hurting people? D&D (through Tyrion and Jon) think a siege is humane! Anyone remember what Bronn told Tyrion about thieves and food during sieges? D&D don't! The first people to suffer deprivation, starvation and death are the commoners, starting with the poorest among them. (sigh)

Perhaps the writers have made Tyrion so foolish because they are setting him up for a big fall, a fiery execution by Dany who's just fed up with his ineptitude, and/or D&D simply don't know how to write themselves out of plot challenges. Dany arrived in Westeros with a massive army and three dragons which could have ended the conflict too quickly and easily so they had to make Tyrion into a military moron to help even the odds. Oh and make Euron into a virtually infallible and almost supernatural threat as well.

Cersei does possess a devious, calculating intelligence, but she lacks wisdom and military strategy. Jaime helped with the latter. I think her big map of Westeros (like the map table at Dragonstone) was made so she could begin to grasp a bigger picture now that she's actually the sole ruler, but moreso to give the viewers a little geography lesson. A lot of people who watch this show don't look at maps of Westeros and have no idea where Dragonstone is in relation to King's Landing. The map scene in Season 7 pointed that out first.

Perhaps Dany did leave a garrison to defend Dragonstone --there was nothing to suggest it was actually taken, only that Euron was waiting to ambush them in the surrounding waters. The Dragons would be the natural choice for reconnaissance (or asking Bran to fly his crows down there) and they should have spotted Euron's fleet first. How often does a surface opponent ever surprise and ambush an aerial one? Almost never! It's always the opposite --tactical bombers spot and take out tanks and little ships, not the other way around (unless the ships have radar, cloaking devices, and surface to air guided missiles, like Euron's )

It's crazy, because Tyrion should know by now that Cersei will let everyone in King's Landing die before surrendering. Still, he's optimistic that she won't do as she's always done. Assuming she'll march north to fight the NK, and later appealing to her by mentioning her unborn child.

What I mean about Cersei has to do with Tywin. It's not that she's a brilliant military strategist. She doesn't have the experience, but she possesses a level of tactical cunning she learned from her father. Lot of scenes in the early episodes of Cersei and Tywin strategizing, and another with Jaime, I believe, where she mentioned heeding his lessons in childhood. She may be vindictive and narcissistic to a fault, but she's no fool.

[L.M.]

It's crazy, because Tyrion should know by now that Cersei will let everyone in King's Landing die before surrendering. Still, he's optimistic that she won't do as she's always done. Assuming she'll march north to fight the NK, and later appealing to her by mentioning her unborn child.

What I mean about Cersei has to do with Tywin. It's not that she's a brilliant military strategist. She doesn't have the experience, but she possesses a level of tactical cunning she learned from her father. Lot of scenes in the early episodes of Cersei and Tywin strategizing, and another with Jaime, I believe, where she mentioned heeding his lessons in childhood. She may be vindictive and narcissistic to a fault, but she's no fool.

Those scenes and what she learned from him mainly had to do with money. He told her that their gold mines had run dry years ago and he was securing the alliance with the Tyrells of Highgarden because they were wealthy and could help. After Jaime looted Highgarden, she paid off the debts and rented a mercenary army, one which she has no idea how to use.

I don't think her character is being written intelligently at all. The woman who blew up the Sept has had two chances to take out her enemies in similar fashion, at the Dragonpit and just now in front of her gates! And she could have taken Dragonstone too.

[L.M.]

I've watched the scene between Jon and Tormund and Ghost several times now and I don't see it as quite the terrible and egregious act as some make it out to be --folks are really knee-jerk overreacting to it.

Kit Harrington isn't exactly the most dynamically-expressive actor out there and his emotions are subtle, but they are there, and I think that Jon also deserves the benefit of the doubt here. He looks at Ghost very sadly. Here's a gif of that:



That he acknowledged Ghost at all means that he cares. Additionally, and most importantly, the director didn't want a complicated, physical interaction between them because Ghost is CGI as explained here:

Here's Why Jon Snow Didn't Pet Ghost In His 'Game Of Thrones' Goodbye

Maybe they ran out of money, shooting the wad on dragons and big battles again.

It also makes sense just from the vantage point of a canine owner. If you give your dog any kind of encouragement they'll just follow you out the gate!

Now let's look at the script.

TORMUND: We need room to wander.
I'll take them back through Castle Black as soon as the winter storms pass.
Back where we belong.
JON: It's where he belongs too.
A direwolf has no place in the south.
Will you take him with you? He'll be happier up there.
TORMUND: So would you.
JON: I wish I was going with you.
This is farewell, then.
TORMUND: You never know.
You've got the North in you.
The real North.

Jon is looking out for Ghost's happiness and welfare and that line makes his intention clear. And it's true, a direwolf would be happier up there!

If the showrunners didn't care about Ghost (or had no plans for him), they wouldn't have even bothered writing lines about him. Jon would have said his farewells, there would be no Ghost in the scene at all, and it would just be assumed that Ghost was left at Winterfell with Sansa. That's been the case in many other episodes where we haven't seen him.

But this dialogue with Tormund portends that Jon will end up back in the North. Jon had already expressed dislike for the South, for King's Landing, last season and has no interest in being king --anywhere. After he loses Dany, after he discovers Sansa's betrayal, he won't live in King's Landing nor Winterfell which leaves Castle Black or the open wilderness beyond the Wall as the only choices left, and that's where his heart is anyway. My money's on a bittersweet reunion with Ghost.

[dipablo]

I've watched the scene between Jon and Tormund and Ghost several times now and I don't see it as quite the terrible and egregious act as some make it out to be --folks are really knee-jerk overreacting to it.

Kit Harrington isn't exactly the most dynamically-expressive actor out there and his emotions are subtle, but they are there, and I think that Jon also deserves the benefit of the doubt here. He looks at Ghost very sadly. Here's a gif of that:



That he acknowledged Ghost at all means that he cares. Additionally, and most importantly, the director didn't want a complicated, physical interaction between them because Ghost is CGI as explained here:

Here's Why Jon Snow Didn't Pet Ghost In His 'Game Of Thrones' Goodbye

Maybe they ran out of money, shooting the wad on dragons and big battles again.

It also makes sense just from the vantage point of a canine owner. If you give your dog any kind of encouragement they'll just follow you out the gate!

Now let's look at the script.

TORMUND: We need room to wander.
I'll take them back through Castle Black as soon as the winter storms pass.
Back where we belong.
JON: It's where he belongs too.
A direwolf has no place in the south.
Will you take him with you? He'll be happier up there.
TORMUND: So would you.
JON: I wish I was going with you.
This is farewell, then.
TORMUND: You never know.
You've got the North in you.
The real North.

Jon is looking out for Ghost's happiness and welfare and that line makes his intention clear. And it's true, a direwolf would be happier up there!

If the showrunners didn't care about Ghost (or had no plans for him), they wouldn't have even bothered writing lines about him. Jon would have said his farewells, there would be no Ghost in the scene at all, and it would just be assumed that Ghost was left at Winterfell with Sansa. That's been the case in many other episodes where we haven't seen him.

But this dialogue with Tormund portends that Jon will end up back in the North. Jon had already expressed dislike for the South, for King's Landing, last season and has no interest in being king --anywhere. After he loses Dany, after he discovers Sansa's betrayal, he won't live in King's Landing nor Winterfell which leaves Castle Black or the open wilderness beyond the Wall as the only choices left, and that's where his heart is anyway. My money's on a bittersweet reunion with Ghost.

I think there is also symbolism in him letting go of Ghost, i see it as Jon needing to complete his transformation from Stark to Targ. Could have been done better? of course much of this season could have gone better.

[L.M.]

After contemplating that last conversation between Jon and Tormund, I'm calling this now--

Opening scene of SE1EP1: Rangers leave the tunnel from Castle Black and ride into the wilderness.

Final scene of SE8EP6: Jon, Tormund, and Ghost leave the tunnel from Castle Black and ride into the wilderness.

[dipablo]

After contemplating that last conversation between Jon and Tormund, I'm calling this now--

Opening scene of SE1EP1: Rangers leave the tunnel from Castle Black and ride into the wilderness.

Final scene of SE8EP6: Jon leaves the tunnel from Castle Black and rides into the wilderness.

i have the same feeling. I think he will have to kill danny, most like because of Arya. They will try to crown him and he will tell them all to kick rocks and will head north. The Kingdoms break up with Sansa Queen in the north

[L.M.]

i have the same feeling. I think he will have to kill danny, most like because of Arya. They will try to crown him and he will tell them all to kick rocks and will head north. The Kingdoms break up with Sansa Queen in the north

I forgot to include Tormund and Ghost in Jon's party. That's a better visual mirror to the first episode.

I was thinking about Arya...remember this scene from Season 6?

LADY CRANE: Where will you go?
ARYA: Essos is east and Westeros is west.
But what's west of Westeros?
LADY CRANE: I don't know.
ARYA: Nobody does.
That's where all the maps stop.
The edge of the world, maybe.
I'd like to see that.

If Arya survives the next two and half hours somehow, I think she boards that ship headed "west of Westeros". That might be too "Return of the King" though. Maybe she'll find Frodo and the elves and get drunk with them?

[dipablo]

I forgot to include Tormund and Ghost in Jon's party. That's a better visual mirror to the first episode.

I was thinking about Arya...remember this scene from Season 6?

LADY CRANE: Where will you go?
ARYA: Essos is east and Westeros is west.
But what's west of Westeros?
LADY CRANE: I don't know.
ARYA: Nobody does.
That's where all the maps stop.
The edge of the world, maybe.
I'd like to see that.

If Arya survives the next two and half hours somehow, I think she boards that ship headed "west of Westeros". That might be too "Return of the King" though. Maybe she'll find Frodo and the elves and get drunk with them?

Forgot about that but could be some good foreshadowing, maybe her and Yara ride off into the sunset