Game of Thrones

[Peerless]

I've watched the scene between Jon and Tormund and Ghost several times now and I don't see it as quite the terrible and egregious act as some make it out to be --folks are really knee-jerk overreacting to it.

Kit Harrington isn't exactly the most dynamically-expressive actor out there and his emotions are subtle, but they are there, and I think that Jon also deserves the benefit of the doubt here. He looks at Ghost very sadly. Here's a gif of that:



That he acknowledged Ghost at all means that he cares. Additionally, and most importantly, the director didn't want a complicated, physical interaction between them because Ghost is CGI as explained here:

Here's Why Jon Snow Didn't Pet Ghost In His 'Game Of Thrones' Goodbye

Maybe they ran out of money, shooting the wad on dragons and big battles again.

It also makes sense just from the vantage point of a canine owner. If you give your dog any kind of encouragement they'll just follow you out the gate!

Now let's look at the script.

TORMUND: We need room to wander.
I'll take them back through Castle Black as soon as the winter storms pass.
Back where we belong.
JON: It's where he belongs too.
A direwolf has no place in the south.
Will you take him with you? He'll be happier up there.
TORMUND: So would you.
JON: I wish I was going with you.
This is farewell, then.
TORMUND: You never know.
You've got the North in you.
The real North.

Jon is looking out for Ghost's happiness and welfare and that line makes his intention clear. And it's true, a direwolf would be happier up there!

If the showrunners didn't care about Ghost (or had no plans for him), they wouldn't have even bothered writing lines about him. Jon would have said his farewells, there would be no Ghost in the scene at all, and it would just be assumed that Ghost was left at Winterfell with Sansa. That's been the case in many other episodes where we haven't seen him.

But this dialogue with Tormund portends that Jon will end up back in the North. Jon had already expressed dislike for the South, for King's Landing, last season and has no interest in being king --anywhere. After he loses Dany, after he discovers Sansa's betrayal, he won't live in King's Landing nor Winterfell which leaves Castle Black or the open wilderness beyond the Wall as the only choices left, and that's where his heart is anyway. My money's on a bittersweet reunion with Ghost.

I don't know......

Ghost has been there through thick and thin for Jon.

He has helped him many times - from the very first white walker interaction, to protecting his best friend Sam, to protecting his then dead body, to fighting in his battles.

A little bop on the head or a "good boy" would have done more for myself (and many of the fans).

[Peerless]

This is all I needed....

[JT24Champ]

This is all I needed....

wow that was easy. makes me sad producers didnt want to do this.
jon literally hugged everyone besides ghost

[L.M.]

wow that was easy. makes me sad producers didnt want to do this.
jon literally hugged everyone besides ghost

Yeah it's easy to just photoshop something like that, but not so much with a moving CGI creature, and they ran out of time and/or money. Try making a trilogy of three 2.5 hour movies with Hollywood-level special FX in less than two years with only $90M. That's why the director made that call as related in the article link above.

Ghost and Jon aren't done, I'm sure of it.

[JT24Champ]

Yeah it's easy to just photoshop something like that, but not so much with a moving CGI creature, and they ran out of time and/or money. Try making a trilogy of three 2.5 hour movies with Hollywood-level special FX in less than two years with only $90M. That's why the director made that call as related in the article link above.

Ghost and Jon aren't done, I'm sure of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3M0...tu.be&t=18m26s

you can tell the cast are upset... it makes me sad. videos of jon saying the finale is a disappoint to dani's sarcastic best season ever to this video of tyrion saying his character is smart but apparently not that smart.

even euron's character said he wishes his character was built like the books

[L.M.]

I give Episode 4 "The Last of the Starks" a 5/10 rating.

I think it delivered well on some scenes while completely blowing it with others, and I was neutral about many scenes too, particularly Jaime and Brienne -I just don't care about their relationship very much to have an opinion on it either way.

The soundtrack, cinematography and most of the acting was stellar as usual (they did their best with what they were given). The funeral scene was moving, and I loved the scene between Jon and Dany in private --well played, especially by Emilia. It was great to see Varys get real lines again and return to his proper form, something we really haven't seen for several years. He actually had useful intel for Dany and his scenes with Tyrion were my favorite parts of this episode. Varys wins the episode MVP, IMO.

I didn't like their abrupt cutting away from the scene in the Godswood just before Bran tells his sisters about Jon's true origin and identity. We can guess Sansa's reaction through her scene with Tyrion, but we have no idea what Arya thinks about this at all. I understand why they did it though. This reveal has now been articulated to the viewers for three episodes in a row, starting with the Season 7 finale, so it would have been repetitious and tedious to aire it all out once again. To avoid this problem, they could have "hit more birds with one stone" and just had Bran tell Sam and sisters last season. Then Sansa's instant dislike for Dany would have had a stronger rationale behind it.

For me, this is the worst episode this season (so far) because the writers reverted to the same idiotic devices used in the last season, like their use of Euron who made his third, devastating, surprise attack out of nowhere and at no real cost to his forces. Unless surface units are modern warships with radar and guided missiles, they should not get the jump on aerial opponents as Euron's did. But the Iron Fleet always knows where its enemies are, can cross the map instantly, is invisible, and invincible. And it's effctiveness is further aided by its totally naive victims who are oblivious to any danger.

Euron and his Iron Fleet are a lazy writing device called a Diabolus ex Machina:

"Diabolus ex Machina (Devil from the Machine) is the Evil Counterpart of Deus ex Machina: the introduction of an unexpected new event, character, ability, or object designed to ensure that things suddenly get much worse for the protagonists, much better for the villains, or both. This could also be called Acute Dramatic Necessity Disorder.

"Observers of this trope should note three things:

1. Diabolus ex Machina is often brought in simply because if the villain were to lose, the story would be over. Like the Deus ex Machina, it only applies if it comes out of left field.
2. Like the Deus ex Machina, a Diabolus ex Machina does not necessarily occur at the end. Though it often overlaps with Ending Tropes, it should not be confused for one.
3. The Diabolus ex Machina, while a very common Pet-Peeve Trope when used for a Downer Ending, can be pulled off - See the entire "Rule of X" series of tropes."

The writers had absolutely no idea for how to even the odds against Dany's forces in these past two seasons except by resorting to this, and making Team Dany into military imbeciles --especially, and uncharacteristically, Tyrion, the victorious mastermind of Season Two's Blackwater.

Euron certainly shouldn't have been able to surprise them this time, not when they should know by now that the Iron Fleet is a serious threat to any movement in the waters near King's Landing, and Dragonstone is very near it. They should have anticipated that the island would have been captured or guarded and scouted it first. Did they even bother to leave a garrison there before going North?!? Garrison sentries could have spotted enemy ships and warned Winterfell and White Harbor with ravens. They could have asked Bran for reconnaissance help too.

The final scene in front of King's Landing is similar to the Dragon Pit all over again with so much stupidity about it I can scarcely stand it.

1. Team Dany really can't get to that position in front of King's Landing without sailing past Euron somehow. Do they even have ships left after that attack? Did they use cloaking devices to get past his? Or did they wave lots of white flags on the way to demanding an unconditional surrender?

2. Dany's side really has no leverage from which to demand Cersei's surrender because her forces are depleted, she just lost another dragon which are now very vulnerable to Qyburn's new superduper ballistae and it has evidently been mass-produced as they proudly line the ramparts now. Qyburn pointed these things out but Tyrion and Dany apparently didn't factor them into their demand, totally ignoring the fact that surrender can only be forced from a position of dominance.

3. The writers clearly wanted another face-to-face confrontation for drama, so Team Dany is ridiculously close to Team Cersei, in a tactically vulnerable position, not only within range of the ballistae but bowshot as well. Dany has a tiny force which could be annihilated with missiles or overrun with cavalry, and Drogon is just sitting nearby, also in ballista range.



4. Cersei, the woman who took out all her enemies in King's Landing by detonating wildfire beneath the Sept of Baelor, doesn't take out her enemies here.

5. Tyrion "boldly" walks right up to the gate, virtually throwing himself at the mercy of his sister to appeal to the loving mother inside her while ignoring her entire history of deceit, subversion, treachery, attempted murder against him, and mass murder of the Sept victims, because she's "not a monster".

6. Cersei spares him again, this time for absolutely no reason at all.

7. Missandei, suddenly vindictive and uncompassionate about the fate of hundreds of thousands of civilians, encourages Dany to burn them all!

This was a meeting between morons, written by morons, and it is certainly one of the most poorly contrived scenes in this entire series. It's disappointing to me when they had an extra year to work on this season with only six episodes to focus upon.

[dipablo]

I give Episode 4 "The Last of the Starks" a 5/10 rating.

I think it delivered well on some scenes while completely blowing it with others, and I was neutral about many scenes too, particularly Jaime and Brienne -I just don't care about their relationship very much to have an opinion on it either way.

The soundtrack, cinematography and most of the acting was stellar as usual (they did their best with what they were given). The funeral scene was moving, and I loved the scene between Jon and Dany in private --well played, especially by Emilia. It was great to see Varys get real lines again and return to his proper form, something we really haven't seen for several years. He actually had useful intel for Dany and his scenes with Tyrion were my favorite parts of this episode. Varys wins the episode MVP, IMO.

I didn't like their abrupt cutting away from the scene in the Godswood just before Bran tells his sisters about Jon's true origin and identity. We can guess Sansa's reaction through her scene with Tyrion, but we have no idea what Arya thinks about this at all. I understand why they did it though. This reveal has now been articulated to the viewers for three episodes in a row, starting with the Season 7 finale, so it would have been repetitious and tedious to aire it all out once again. To avoid this problem, they could have "hit more birds with one stone" and just had Bran tell Sam and sisters last season. Then Sansa's instant dislike for Dany would have had a stronger rationale behind it.

For me, this is the worst episode this season (so far) because the writers reverted to the same idiotic devices used in the last season, like their use of Euron who made his third, devastating, surprise attack out of nowhere and at no real cost to his forces. Unless surface units are modern warships with radar and guided missiles, they should not get the jump on aerial opponents as Euron's did. But the Iron Fleet always knows where its enemies are, can cross the map instantly, is invisible, and invincible. And it's effctiveness is further aided by its totally naive victims who are oblivious to any danger.

Euron and his Iron Fleet are a lazy writing device called a Diabolus ex Machina:

"Diabolus ex Machina (Devil from the Machine) is the Evil Counterpart of Deus ex Machina: the introduction of an unexpected new event, character, ability, or object designed to ensure that things suddenly get much worse for the protagonists, much better for the villains, or both. This could also be called Acute Dramatic Necessity Disorder.

"Observers of this trope should note three things:

1. Diabolus ex Machina is often brought in simply because if the villain were to lose, the story would be over. Like the Deus ex Machina, it only applies if it comes out of left field.
2. Like the Deus ex Machina, a Diabolus ex Machina does not necessarily occur at the end. Though it often overlaps with Ending Tropes, it should not be confused for one.
3. The Diabolus ex Machina, while a very common Pet-Peeve Trope when used for a Downer Ending, can be pulled off - See the entire "Rule of X" series of tropes."

The writers had absolutely no idea for how to even the odds against Dany's forces in these past two seasons except by resorting to this, and making Team Dany into military imbeciles --especially, and uncharacteristically, Tyrion, the victorious mastermind of Season Two's Blackwater.

Euron certainly shouldn't have been able to surprise them this time, not when they should know by now that the Iron Fleet is a serious threat to any movement in the waters near King's Landing, and Dragonstone is very near it. They should have anticipated that the island would have been captured or guarded and scouted it first. Did they even bother to leave a garrison there before going North?!? Garrison sentries could have spotted enemy ships and warned Winterfell and White Harbor with ravens. They could have asked Bran for reconnaissance help too.

The final scene in front of King's Landing is similar to the Dragon Pit all over again with so much stupidity about it I can scarcely stand it.

1. Team Dany really can't get to that position in front of King's Landing without sailing past Euron somehow. Do they even have ships left after that attack? Did they use cloaking devices to get past his? Or did they wave lots of white flags on the way to demanding an unconditional surrender?

2. Dany's side really has no leverage from which to demand Cersei's surrender because her forces are depleted, she just lost another dragon which are now very vulnerable to Qyburn's new superduper ballistae and it has evidently been mass-produced as they proudly line the ramparts now. Qyburn pointed these things out but Tyrion and Dany apparently didn't factor them into their demand, totally ignoring the fact that surrender can only be forced from a position of dominance.

3. The writers clearly wanted another face-to-face confrontation for drama, so Team Dany is ridiculously close to Team Cersei, in a tactically vulnerable position, not only within range of the ballistae but bowshot as well. Dany has a tiny force which could be annihilated with missiles or overrun with cavalry, and Drogon is just sitting nearby, also in ballista range.



4. Cersei, the woman who took out all her enemies in King's Landing by detonating wildfire beneath the Sept of Baelor, doesn't take out her enemies here.

5. Tyrion "boldly" walks right up to the gate, virtually throwing himself at the mercy of his sister to appeal to the loving mother inside her while ignoring her entire history of deceit, subversion, treachery, attempted murder against him, and mass murder of the Sept victims, because she's "not a monster".

6. Cersei spares him again, this time for absolutely no reason at all.

7. Missandei, suddenly vindictive and uncompassionate about the fate of hundreds of thousands of civilians, encourages Dany to burn them all!

This was a meeting between morons, written by morons, and it is certainly one of the most poorly contrived scenes in this entire series. It's disappointing to me when they had an extra year to work on this season with only six episodes to focus upon.

[dipablo]

[Freestyle]

Well.... I liked the Clegane bowl. The manner in which Qyburn bit the dust was satisfying as well. I liked the visual of the dragon flying past as the two brothers stared each other down on the stairway of the Red Keep. Cersei nor Qyburn could get in the way of this rivalry. Well done.

As for the rest, my complaint with the two biggest battles of the season was that there was little drama. Both were just one sided butt kickings. Having one side getting whooped for 79 min is just tiring and not fun to watch.

Jamie's character arc was a disappointment as well. Pretty much reverted back to season 1 & 2. Also, no queen slayer title for Jamie. I can see why they didnt bother mentioning the volanqar (nor Azor Ahai for that matter). Just keeping it simple because we got a streamlined show the last few seasons. Dany's story probably will end pretty crappily next week as well.

It's been a good run. Talk about a tale of two different shows.

[dizzolve]

I was happy Clegane bowl happened - but the outcome sucked. Hound couldn't take him out without martyring himself ....... c'mon. If the hound had to die- so be it- but let him win the fight first.

I really haven't been happy with how they resolved the series. To be fair - I couldn't imagine having to write all these stories closing up so - ... and it's hard to live up to what this show has been for years

But- I have to admit that the series took a turn for the 'disappointing'.

[Spice 1]

Lot of stuff to take in there. They really put a lot of effort into this last season. Visually, it's amazing. Some thoughts I had as I watched:

1. I don't know why everyone in Westeros has an obsession with marching their infantry out in front of their castles, and standing in a tight formation. I dunno, man. We're in a defensive position, but lets send our infantry out IN FRONT of the castle just for kicks right? So all the people that should be perched on the walls with bows can hold a bag of popcorn instead, and see who's got the better straight up army.

2. Where Cersei's navy is concerned, maybe use some dispersion, so a giant dragon can't fly down and one shot you. I'm pretty sure Cersei has naval superiority at this point. Maybe ferry some troops up the river, and attack them from the rear while their busy getting annihilated by arrow fire and collapsing infantry.

3. Speaking of Euron. He was the only one who made it to shore, and conveniently bumps into Jaime Lannister? Nice. And no, clown show, you didn't kill Jaime Lannister. A building did. What happened is YOU got killed by a one handed man in...hand to hand combat.

4. LM, I give up. Cersei was an idiot. You win.

5. Varys was right. He always was. Probably the smartest character on the show, save for Baelish, and Varys knew he was going to die. In the end, he became a martyr.

All in all though, I'm blown away by the production on this show. The season's been pretty fast and pretty straight forward, but these two battles were incredible. Regardless of how much I complain about practicality, I thoroughly enjoyed it. I really liked the way they showed how things got out of hand during the invasion. It only takes one idiot (Grey Worm) with a grudge to decide he's going to go full war crime, and the next thing you know, the whole city is raped and slaughtered. They did a good job of portraying how terrible that is, and sadly, you don't have to consult GRRM for inspiration on that one. Just read a history book.

[Jaws]

I have a headache after that ep!

[Peerless]

Yeah it was an alright episode but I think it was tiring watching a one-sided butt kicking for that long.

Last week, three huge cross bowls strike one dragon repeatedly, yet last night not one could even come close to hitting Drogon. The writing is just 'meh' this season..

Also, Cleganebowl was alright - but for the amount of hype that we were giving it (since season 1), I thought the ending could have been better. Sure, the Hound had a full character arc and a poetic finish with the ending in the fire, but I don't know... seemed kind of uninspired IMO.

[captainbronco]

Yeah it was an alright episode but I think it was tiring watching a one-sided butt kicking for that long.

Last week, three huge cross bowls strike one dragon repeatedly, yet last night not one could even come close to hitting Drogon. The writing is just 'meh' this season..

Also, Cleganebowl was alright - but for the amount of hype that we were giving it (since season 1), I thought the ending could have been better. Sure, the Hound had a full character arc and a poetic finish with the ending in the fire, but I don't know... seemed kind of uninspired IMO.

That's what happens when you have only 6 episodes in your last season. Things kinda just happen. They can hit rhaegal from hundreds of feet in the air but all of sudden they get storm trooper syndrome and can't hit anything.

Clegane bowl was ok. It was hyped for a long time and maybe would've been better if the mountain wasnt a zombie.


Also jaime's story arc was disappointing. Went from selfish horrible man to honorable and caring back to how he was. Seemed like a huge waste of time. He killed the mad king because he cared about the innocent people then says he never really cared about the innocent people... ummm ok? Lazy writing.

I really hope the books dont end this way.

[JT24Champ]

That's what happens when you have only 6 episodes in your last season. Things kinda just happen. They can hit rhaegal from hundreds of feet in the air but all of sudden they get storm trooper syndrome and can't hit anything.

Clegane bowl was ok. It was hyped for a long time and maybe would've been better if the mountain wasnt a zombie.


Also jaime's story arc was disappointing. Went from selfish horrible man to honorable and caring back to how he was. Seemed like a huge waste of time. He killed the mad king because he cared about the innocent people then says he never really cared about the innocent people... ummm ok? Lazy writing.

I really hope the books dont end this way.

visually was an amazing episode.
dont mind the mad queen arc but execution is poorly. see breaking bad with how they did it

jaimes arc was horrrrrrrrible.